No MC she is not interested in saving the marriage.

they could use payphones,
Or they could meet somewhere. This I cannot monitor, and you are right
I have no control over her choices.

I was planning on stating to her that she is the OW to OM’s family,
And that their choices and their MC choice of NC should be respected,
Since WW truth was “ I never intended to take him away from his family”
And by continuing contact is doing just that.

And the sooner she realizes that, and end contact the sooner she will start
Healing.

Why not IC for you, then? Say, "I've made an MC appointment and you're invited. I'm going."

I did that...and to my total shock, he went. His choice was his choice...I am deeply grateful I invited.

Do not educate your WW, Joe. You know this. Stating she is the OW to their marriage (and yes, she is) is like an attack, an admonishment, a scolding to a child...she knows, Joe. Respect she already knows.

Are you looking for power over to stop pain?

Yes, her continued contact (which you don't know either way, but there is no obvious contact...OMW's friend is looking out for their marriage) does do harm to OM's marriage. Not in your control...solely within her choice.

Can you own that in your statement...something which you did not and would not do to someone else? How can you own what isn't yours?

Are you trying to make her sooner, better? Force doesn't exist, Joe...spend your time reviewing your marriage for every time you believed you made her do or feel something and find her choice to do or feel...this may quell your urge...from fear...to get this done, over, onward...there's no healing, knowing, growing time in now, now, now...is there?

Understandable...paintime is long...you're feeling down, scared, angry...pull back, Joe...listen to yourself, your own thoughts, focus on you...spend time on yourself and really hearing what you know from your past, and use your energy to stay in the present.

Find out how jumping into the future feeds you...you might find it is generating emotions in you by direct order...soothing you in fantasy. Because future isn't real until it becomes the present.

Find the freedom in only being able to control yourself...there's relief and comfort, real relief and real comfort, in knowing that, believing that...because you can only control yourself...and what you think, believe and feel are all yours...no right, no wrong...just yours.

You have limits, Joe...and power...find your power in your choices...examine them, also...spend thought time in this manner, instead of on taking action, speaking words...forcing outcomes...

Herculean task...and I know you can do that.

LA

Hey there.

I did go to IC for a while she was invited didn’t want to go, he didn’t help me much
May be I should wait little longer for her to be ready, maybe another MC.

I’m just having a bad day. Nowhere else to vent.

Seems to me that pain time is still at this moment.

The bad feelings had stopped after telling OMW, but today they are back.
I think it’s the fear of the unknown, not sure if contact is happening or not unknown.
I’m not worried about the future for now all I want is NC to be established so she can go
Through her withdrawal.

It’s been a long day, alone at work; I turn the TV out loud so I feel that somebody is here.

I’m drained emotionally, and physically, I keep telling myself, I will make it,
And I will, but sometimes it’s excruciating.
I feel that I’m alive only because I’m not dead.

I do give myself mental hugs, but I need a real hug, I need her hugs.

I called her a couple of times today, I feel better after I talk to her, and she is
Nicer over the phone, but I don’t like to talk about important things if I can’t see her face
So I don’t.

I’m just venting here, I will get better, I hope.
Still terrified but I’m hanging in I have a long way to go; I hope I can make it.
Keep me in you’re prayers.

21, perhaps it's time to just drop back into a simple Plan A. You're worrying yourself to death right now and that's counter-productive. Ease off on yourself, pardner. Take a step back and just watch what's going on instead of analyzing it to death, okay?

How about starting some of the things for yourself like getting in better physical condition, doing some woodwork projects, maybe take an automobile repair class—something…anything…to occupy your time and your mind.

Review Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A," and find a little peace in knowing you're doing all you can to save this marriage. Bring your children closer to you and spend your energy and time on them. Take a look at Ark's "Be Still" thread and learn to relax while all this is going on, friend.

Patience, 21, patience. Your wife didn't get into this predicament in an afternoon, it'll take a long while for her to work her way out of it. It won’t do any good if you work yourself into a lengthy stay at a hospital while she’s groping her way through the fog back to the light, will it?

Here are links to the threads I was talking about:

Pepperband's "Carrot & Stick Of Plan A"

Ark's "Be Still" thread

Thanks LH I forgot about those threads.

it's so hard when time stays still.
I'm the kind of fix it now and get it over with.
I do have patience but my heart doesn't.
I'm trying my best.

Understood, but water will not boil any faster if you hop from one foot to the other beside the stove, pardner. Find an inner peace; know that what you can do, you are doing. Let what you cannot do anything about take care of itself, okay? Now go hug your kids and get some sleep.

I know I was supposed to stay quiet but I couldn’t take it anymore

Her silence cuts like a sword.

It’s fathers day and I didn’t get anything, not that I was expecting any, but
It still hurts.

My 6 years old D woke me up wished me happy fathers day, told her brother
To do the same and she made me a card, my son did the same later, and it was more
Then enough for me.

I sat down with my WW later trying to talk to her, while the kids interrupting every 2 minutes.

Me:
Why do you hate me that much?

Ww:
Because you had to tell his wife and look what’s happening now
It’s your entire fault. Not that what I did was right but this is how I feel,
I don’t feel guilty about the A because I followed my heart, I didn’t mean
To hurt anybody but now because you called his wife a lot of people are hurting.
And now I lost my friend.

Me:
He is you’re lover.
And I ‘m not sorry for telling his wife and I didn’t hurt anybody, the A did…

What I don’t get is that you told me that he is staying for his kids, because his wife
Is a B****, and he would have left her long time ago, what is your excuse,

Ww:
I told you I have changed and you laughed at me.

Me:
I never laughed I told you I know what happened you just didn’t want to believe me.
And what strikes me is how could you treat me this way, when I’m being so good
And understanding and caring towards you, how could you not see my pain.
Because it hurts more then anything in the world.
Do you think that you don’t deserve my forgiveness or my love?
Do you think that you should be punished?

Ww:
NO

What do you want to happen, what do you want to do.

Ww:
Like you said we are here for the kids.

Me:
I am here for you before the kids; no I’m here for me you then the kids.
You need to believe that, I still care for you.

Ww:
You shouldn’t.

Me:
Well I do, and I know you told me that being that nice doesn’t make any sense to you
And that I must be up to something, but I’m not.

We talked a lot more.
She stated that she doesn’t feel that she is my wife anymore, I didn’t respond to that.
Then it was time for lunch, I asked her if she would like to go have lunch with us
(She is been avoiding going out to eat with me)
She said no, I told her common it’s father’s day, so she agreed, we stood up,
I asked her if she needed a hug she said no, I told her well I do,
So I gave her a hug and whispered in her ear you are still my baby, no she said
I told her yes and I will keep taking care of you, no matter what, you have to believe that.

One more thing I forgot.
I mentioned to her that if we file for divorce, because we have
2 young kids the court will order MC first, I was surprised when she said
“ I will go to MC but it wouldn’t change anything”.
I told her she is not ready for MC yet.

Should I wait for her withdrawal before MC or should we go now?

After lunch she said we could take the kids swimming at grandma’s I said ok

And it’s like you took a thorn out of your finger she was talking to me, playing
With the kids, like nothing is wrong.

I have no idea what’s going on anymore.

I hope this mood will last.

I feel better today, knowing 90% sure that she is not having contact with OM.
And 100% no physical contact.

213601,

You might also check out LA's own your own village thread.

If I can find the link I'll post it here.

Big mistake there. Don't EVER start up relationship talks with your spouse if your kids are around. In fact, it's probably best that you don't initiate those talks at all if you're doing Plan A. If she wants to talk R-talk, then ensure that you've got each others undivided attention first before getting into it.



Sounds like fog-speak to me. My FWW initially told me that she felt guilty at first, but not so after the A continued - she's recently told me that she felt guilty all of the time, but that was not enough to stop her. Your (F)WW is not prepared to face the effects of her actions, so she's responding the way that she is.

Things will get better, once you follow that Plan A - and avoid the R-talk as much as possible until that fog starts to clear.

Thanks MIM

this talk did help her nasty attitude, but I know what you mean.

NEW NEWS.

OM just called me he wants to meet me after work to apologise face to face, at least one of them is remorsfull

I will post the result later.

Be prepared to hear him apologizing all around the offense. I would anticipate stuff like:
[list] I'm sorry my friendship with your wife has hurt you.
[list] We're just good friends.
[list] I wish I'd been more upfront from the beginning, let's start fresh, and do things all of us together as families to wipe out any misunderstandings. and
[list] I wish you hadn't talked to my wife about your suspicions.

But then, I'm a cynic.

Hey B.

he already apologized to the church, and the school staf
in writing.

he is very remorsfull and he is trying to make things right,
the NC is his choice at this moment not my WW's he is my only chance.

I could be wrong.
I hope not.

I will update.

It's quite likely that his wanting to apologize is more an attempt to clear his conscience than it is to demonstrate any remorse to you. It's up to if you want to let him off that easy, but I suggest that you avoid getting into a big discussion with the OM over the A. You should emphasize though that there should be no further contact between him and your WW.

Tell him a no contact letter, saying he never loved WW, is ending all contact with WW for life, that he loves his wife dearly and is committed to working on their marriage.

No face to face...in writing...ask for this as his amends for your forgiveness. Have him mail it with his wife's approval to your address, addressed to you and your WW.

LA

Thanks LA

this is what I was planing to do.

I need you're input on my 1:01pm post about what happened yesterday.

thank you.

I read through your post earlier, Joe...didn't know what to say...you did what you did, said what you said...liked the response you got from her...seemed to change...to get you the response you sought, maybe?

"I know I was supposed to stay quiet but I couldn’t take it anymore"

This is within you...not her...you see her dripping with hate and anger...not as a person who has used you to be responsible for what she feels and vice versa for 27 years...and now you've stopped...why do you take this personally from her? Why choose to see her this way? Why not know, fully, deeply, truly, this is her anger, her stuff...not yours? Like she is piled up with stuff on the other side of a see-through fence...you can see her and all her stuff...and she is casting you looks (which before you got respectful would start a chain-reaction of reactions)...and now you see and you feel that tug and you are the one saying, hmmm...no...I know you're capable and whole and complete...and stick to owning your own stuff.

You miss being immersed in your WW...that reaction-to-reaction was a rhythm, I swear, is in our blood...and breaking that rhythm feels out of kilter...like stumbling...funny how acquiring balance feels so out of balance at first...

Know your choice and there's nothing you can't take anymore...you choose without reacting; not being filled up...mind your expectations carefully....expecting her to stop her wayward fog now that it isn't being fed by OM...guess what? Half the fog was fed by her from the inside...no contact doesn't mean that won't go on for a bit...part of withdrawal...stay the course, like Longhorn advises...

Stay the course...

I'd stick with listen and repeat ONLY...she shared something...she felt laughed at...doesn't mean you did...listen and repeat...that's all. Make your new rhythm to move to, choose to and believe in, Joe.

Repectful love...really look to how you want to manipulate and know this...understand manipulation acts from fear...respect acts from love...guess which one is the oldest reaction?

LA

Well I met with OM yesterday after work.

WW doesn’t know yet. I don’t know if I’m going to tell her or not.

He was extremely sorry for what he did; he just didn’t know how to stop it
He is very remorseful, he is going to counseling with his wife, and he said they have
Bad days and good days, all the personnel at church and the school know, he had
To read a letter of apology he wrote to everybody.

He will right a NC letter to my WW.

He said that before the A started he was trying to understand why my W
Felt this way even though she had nothing bad to say about me, he had
Problems with his wife, but he couldn’t understand why my W didn’t want
To work on our marriage since she described me as a good husband.

Then they started getting friendlier and one thing led to an other and one day
My WW asked him on a date.
And from then on the PA started, he claimed he didn’t know how to stop it.

He told his wife everything, he changed his cell number, e-mail
He seems willing to work on his marriage, or he is the best darn liar
I’ve ever met.

We talked for over an hour, he seemed genuinely honest, which I heard a lot of good things about him from his friends.

After the meeting I was at ease until I remembered him saying something that happened
After the 2nd D day, meaning he had somehow contacted my wife after that day, which
According to him D-day was the last time he spoke to her.
I really want to believe the other things he said. He could have lied because he didn’t want his wife to know that he had been in contact with my WW. At this point I really
Don’t know, I tried to call him but nobody answered the phone, so I left a message.

I know he wants to fix his marriage because he have a lot to lose, his home his kids, his friends, and his job.

I’m going crazy I feel worse then what I felt before talking to him.

The only good thing is he seems devoted to work on his M more then his wife is,
He is doing everything possible to have NC with my W.
He stepped down from the leadership of his recovery group, he said it was hypocritical
Not to. And so on.

I have no reason to think he will continue contact after we talked but I will not
Trust him or my WW for now.
I don’t know if my WW should know about this meeting or not.

I'm terrified more then ever.

Any input or criticisms is welcome.

A post ad on…. And a bump.

I’m trying to stay still but I can’t, how do you do it?
How do you act happy when the hurt is so strong?
How do you disconnect yourself from all the chaos?
Too many questions, no simple answer.

I'm taking your last post first...

I do not believe in pretending...that gets us out of reality and invalidates our feelings.

And I don't believe in living from feelings, either.

Where does that leave me? Acknowledging that I am not happy...and not leaving it there...too nebulous, too intangible...track it down to what I'm feeling and feel it. Passes more quickly. I choose my most helpful perspective...if I were you, Joe, this would be me...

"I am angry with myself for not living up to my old expectation of myself and not punching the guy out, wittily putting him down, smearing his soul into the ground...which I'd promised to myself if this EVER happened to me...and I'm more upset because I'm comparing myself to him...and he's not coming up dog poo..(and he IS Joe...that's not honesty...to say it got away from him...accidentally dated and slept with your wife...there's no ownership...he's not honest; he's terrified)...

Your goal isn't to act happy...it is to act real, truly owning your stuff and not acting from it...acting from your goal, your code...

Find out why you hurt more, as you said (and big KUDOS on sharing all those emotions)...

Loving detachment is how we break enmeshment...the chaos is not yours...is not reality...reality is you have your children and WW at home, right now...you know ten times more than you did last year...about yourself, being human, and being married.

Find out why you want simple...how it pays you off...simple answers for complex people...how reasonable are your expectations...and accept yourself more...heck, you're breathing, living this....all new, unsettling, full of previous vows and expectations...KNOW this...you're not fighting another person...mostly, your self...your deep, old beliefs...

Now...as for meeting OM...don't do it again, okay? It is why I advised against. Curiosity killed your own heart...you punished yourself with his presence...doubted and hurt yourself...YOU did that...not WW or him...without meeting, without his explanations and crap, a NC letter would have sufficed. Don't make him real, Joe...he's not fantasy when you see him and your sympathy goes out to him...like a traitor...were you looking for security in his words? His body language? What were you after, Joe? Find those things and own them...here...

It's up to you to lighten your own load...and that means taking on deeply what is yours...and leaving what isn't. He had a lot you could have stooped to carry...something in you feeds on this...put it down. Until he owns why, to the detail, he knows it was his choice, his power...then he will cheat again and again.

Been there...been him.

I was authentically sorry for causing pain, each time...I stumbled into, overlook, got snuck up on, and was just being a friend...I was duped, and yet entitled to dupe, to draw, enchant...it's complex and absolutely idiotic...I did that. I punished and I rewarded...it was all about me in the guise of sacrifice...don't waste your time on him, Joe...he's got a boatload of his own stuff...

Focus on you. That no contact letter arriving and reading it with WW.

Staying aware for no contact to WW and seeing slowly, like coming out of a coma, a couple more months, before you glimpse your loving W's face and smile...

You've got a ton of work to do in the meantime, Joe. You are doing it...keep doing it...keep asking those questions of yourself and share your answers here...

Remember...if you can only think of two solutions, then you're thinking in extremes...which signals you to thinking from your inner child (where pain puts us), not your adult.

You can totally or partially disconnect...you can stay present fully or partially...or you can escape into compulsive thought cycles (comfort comes from the sureness of the cycle...no surprises), or fantasy.

Many choices. You've learned more than I have. Reach for them. Reach for the fullness of your life. Stay on course, hero. You can do this. Being false or pretending won't cut it.

LA

Thanks.

The pain is coming from not believing NC yet, maybe it will happen now,
The noose is very tight around his neck,

He had to read his apology letter for a room full of people, yesterday,
So now everybody at school knows, my name or my WW’s name
Where not mentioned, but a lot of people knew who it was.

OM just returned my call I asked him again if he had contacted my WW
He said no, my hope is that now after what he had to go through, (I mean
I don’t want to be in his shoes right now, talking about humiliation in public,
In front of all his friends.)
The NC should start.

Quote:

I am angry with myself for not living up to my old expectation of myself and not punching the guy out, wittily putting him down, smearing his soul into the ground...which I'd promised to myself if this EVER happened to me...and I'm more upset because I'm comparing myself to him...and he's not coming up dog poo..(and he IS Joe...that's not honesty...to say it got away from him...accidentally dated and slept with your wife...there's no ownership...he's not honest; he's terrified)...

I am not angry at myself, I was never planning on putting him down, or punching him out, I’m not comparing myself to him, he wouldn’t even come close,
I think of myself as great person, I’m not perfect, but I’m a very honest caring man,
I never hold a grudge, I am very forgiving. Like we say back home,” you can buy me with
One nice word.”
And I see the good in other people until they prove me wrong.
And he did.

My pain is coming from the fear of having contact somehow, and not trusting WW or OM. At this moment.

I know that his wife, the school, the church and his friends are making it almost
Impossible for the A to continue or the contact to continue.
But they can still find a way if they want to.

He is taking ownership for his choices he told me that he is the one that caused the pain
To everybody involved and he is apologizing to everybody.

I still think he is a low life for doing this. And I will never trust him.

I needed to have the meeting with him, to know at least some detail on what has happened, since I got nothing from my WW, I needed him to see how much pain he had caused.
I did get some information out of him, I could have gotten more details but I didn’t want to, not at this time it will drain my love bank in a second.

I think I have only one major source of fear which resuming contact, I’m terrified of
Having the EA /PA start over again either. I don’t think I will be forgiving if it does.

I will deal with the other stuff as it comes along.

Quote:
Loving detachment is how we break enmeshment...the chaos is not yours...is not reality...reality is you have your children and WW at home, right now...you know ten times more than you did last year...about yourself, being human, and being married.

Yes I have my children at home I do know more about myself, but my wife is not at home, I have a shell a person that looks exactly like my wife, with a different soul inside
Some times I wonder who this person is and how could anybody be so cruel and disconnected, then I remember the alien thing, I guess MB is right she is been abducted by aliens.

I still have hope, I need to expect the worst but I can’t at this point I need to think
Positive, I’m to emotionally and physically drained to deal with a thought of a bad outcome,
I can handle my pain better when I hope for better days.

I know I can’t make her choices, I know there are things that I don’t have control
Over and I should accept them, I know I need to look at the bright side.
But it’s hard.

I need to get out of the house more often but by the time the kids go to bed I’m to tired
To go anywhere. I do feel better when I’m with friends, but I still need to spend time with the kids, and this is the only time I can spend with them, they’re used to daddy being
Home every evening to take care of them and put them in bed, and I’m not going to take that away from them.


One more question

I can’t keep secrets from my wife they eat me up inside.
I need to tell her that I had a meeting with OM, and that he said, that he loves his wife
And he is committed to his marriage, and he is very sorry to have caused everybody so much pain, and he thanked me for telling his wife, this way he could work on his marriage with her.
and that he had to read his letter to everybody.

Would that be a good idea?
Or just keep it to myself.

any suggestion is welcom.