Good morning LA.

It’s been a few days since I posted on my thread.

I do see it LA I do…

And my prayers have been answered by 2crazy posting on MB.
I can see how similar they are I even asked my WW if this was her posting, the story
And the details are not the same but I thought maybe she changed the background of the story to cover up.
Just before you posted your first post to 2crazy I was about to call up on you to help her
Out, great post by the way, like usual.

I’m trying to help her to, I feel with her H and with her…

A couple of days ago one of my old friend that I didn’t see for a long time called me on my WW’s cell. It was the only number she had for me.

My wife never liked her because, she thought I had some feelings for her back then so I started avoiding her, we where really good friends, and I had some feelings for her, my wife was right about that. To tell you the truth it was good to hear from her.

Yesterday I finally received e-mail from Joe he is away from his family out of the country
On a job, he gave me his wife’s cell number she is still in Lebanon with the kids
They have 2 daughters, we where all best friends way before they got married way before
They started dating, and in 1995 I took my DW to Lebanon and she met his wife.

To make a story short I called (I’m going to call her L by her initial) yesterday,
And from all the days it was her older daughters B day, imagine that, we talked for about
20 minutes; for a moment there I felt in a safe place, or do I say I felt in a safe time,
Because I went back in time, she was telling me about the explosive situation back in
Lebanon she said it’s really bad now. And I remembered the wartime and the Red Cross
We joined the Red Cross together, in 1984, yes 22 years ago, oh god it seems like yesterday. Where does the time go, we are getting old.
She asked me about my W I told her we are having problems, she kind a yelled at me
And told me to do whatever it takes to patch things up with my W, because she liked
My wife, and my wife liked her when they met. And she wished she could be here for us.

I told her that it’s not up to me at this point, and I’m doing my best to save my M.
I didn’t tell her what the problem was, but I told her it was bad.

LA it was great to hear L’s voice after all these years I felt peace in myself knowing
That I still have friends that think highly of me even if they are13000 miles away.

Wow I wondered big time here didn’t I? I took myself to a safe place in time and then
I woke myself up, sorry.

Now about my WW.

She is still hurting a lot, the other day she was very upset all she said when I asked was that she is being more and more humiliated by people at school making her feel
That she is the devil and she is being blamed for what’s going on, I told her I’m sorry she
Is being treated this way, and if she want to talk about it, I can listen,
She said she didn’t want to talk about it.

I wish she could see that OM is the one causing this shift of sympathy towards him,
By making himself look like an innocent victim, I got that vibe from my meeting with him,

I’m thinking if he told me that my WW asked him out on a date, and that he didn’t know
How to stop the A, even after I confronted him on the first D Day, and that he loved his W and that he told my WW that it’s over, I realized that this guy
Is not taking any ownership for his part and blaming my WW for the A.
And after he promised me to send a NC letter and I still don’t have one, it makes me think twice about his intentions, and by the way OMW made it clear that she didn’t
Want me to call her, because I was interfering with her recovery, and she trusts OM
And that OM didn’t love my WW but he loves her, and hi is remorseful and he is working Overtime on his M. and if god wants to unveil things he will.
I told her that I respected her request and that I will not call her anymore.

I guess I’m the only one that knows how devious that guy is.
Well my wife knows to that he is lying because he had told her earlier that he is staying
For the kids, and that he doesn’t love his W.

So he is lying to somebody, either to my wife or to everybody else.
How come my WW can’t see that?
Could the fog be that blinding?

About me I’m hanging in their, still on the emotional ride, mostly down, sometimes
I get uplift, but I still have hope, without hope I have no reason to continue,
Some days my whole body is numb, I can barely walk, the pain in my chest is always their, reminding me that I’m only human.
My wife is talking to me she is being thoughtful, she does know I’m in pain, I don’t know
If she feels it but she knows… we don’t talk about R much or the A, but we talk…

I told her yesterday remember this, friends come and go but your family will never leave
You, I will never leave you.

I believe OM is lying to himself...which is why he is lying to everyone...

Not your concern.

Why is your wife still volunteering at the school?

Are you still listening and repeating? When she talked about how she felt others making her feel blamed and humiliated, did you just repeat?

Sounds like you said you were sorry for her feelings...that she was having them...and why ask if she wants to talk about it when she IS talking about it?

Can you see how twisty this is? And you validated that people were treating her that way rather than affirming you understand she perceives it this way...and you augment her perception by thinking of OM and his motives...DJs galore, Tony. This is getting sucked into fantasy, not staying in respectful reality...she is fully capable of dealing with her feelings, thoughts, perceptions, beliefs and choosing her perspective...please don't get in her way.

Now, look to your grand statement..."I will never leave you" and then at your acknowledgement that without hope, you wouldn't do this. Staying honest with ourselves when we are fervently wishing for a different reality is tough...doable, but tough. Be tough inside and out, Tony. Be really honest and see where your contradictions are coming from...

About 2crazy...I think you see how helpful it is to help someone else...by simply sharing your truth. Seeing your own responses in a post is another way of looking at yourself...it isn't about pulling, pushing or changing another person...it is revealing yourself.

Which is what I'm doing here...and you are. Two-way streets, Tony.

Now, along the lines of contradictions...why did you take the call from the old friend you had some feelings for that your WW doesn't like? And you got good feelings from the call...

If you do yourself what you don't want your wife doing, how can you enforce the boundary of NC?

My intent here is higher honesty...not bashing...working on you will negate the numbness quite a bit...and you're here.

LA

Hi LA

She is not volunteering now it’s summer school, and she signed up the kids for the summer, they go every other week.

I don’t think they can have contact at school because everybody their knows
And everybody is watching them, and they feel sympathy with OM, and treat
My wife like satin, these are her words, and I believe her.

Quote:

“Can you see how twisty this is? And you validated that people were treating her that way rather than affirming you understand she perceives it this way...and you augment her perception by thinking of OM and his motives...DJs galore, Tony. This is getting sucked into fantasy, not staying in respectful reality...she is fully capable of dealing with her feelings, thoughts, perceptions, beliefs and choosing her perspective...please don't get in her way.”

Yes I can see that now, I’m still practicing to be a better and safe listener, it’s the
Fixer in me I always want to fix things, I do believe she can take care of herself,
But I’m afraid she is plunging into a deep depression, I’m worried about her.

Quote:
“Tony. Be really honest and see where your contradictions are coming from...”

My truth is that I don’t want to leave her, but I’m afraid that she might want to leave,
From 2crazy I can see how thick the fog is, and how hard it is to stop contact,
My wife is still deep in the fog I hope she wakes up before it’s too late.

Quote:
“About 2crazy...I think you see how helpful it is to help someone else...by simply sharing your truth. Seeing your own responses in a post is another way of looking at yourself...it isn't about pulling, pushing or changing another person...it is revealing yourself”

Absolutely right I feel good even if I’m not helping her, but I think she does need the insight of a BS, to deal with her addiction, I have hope for her because she is admitting
Her addiction and she is doing something about it, I hope we can help her.

Now about the call from my friend, it was good hearing from her, we where really good friends, before my marriage, I think talking to her took me back in time, when she met my wife and told me how beautiful she was, and how funny she was. And how lucky I am
To have found her.

I know what you are talking about, but seriously I need a good friend now, and I don’t have feelings for her anymore, and she was my best friend for a long time.
But you are right I’m too vulnerable now to have her as a friend.
Now this was not Joe’s wife she is another friend she lives about 10 minutes from me
So I will try not to talk to her anymore.

Joe’s wife is in Lebanon.

We had a good weekend took the kids to a B-DAY party at the park; my wife was extremely pleasant to be with.
sunday she was sad when she came back from church, she wouldn't tell me what was wrong.

This morning I was down again no reason just down, I miss talking to her, I miss her
I really miss her.
I wish she could see my pain, I wish she could see her addiction, like 2crazy did.
I’m hoping for the best, I have IC tonight, I will update.

....

Tony,

What do you mean, you felt down for no reason?

We know to expect ups and downs through this most traumatic time in your life...is that what you mean?

Or do you mean you couldn't find a reason, something your WW did?

Listening to our feelings...tracing them to our beliefs...isn't how we "fix" our feelings...it is how we know why we're feeling what we are...self-acknowledging...choosing to believe there is no reason for your feeling, well, isn't that like deciding there's no reason to breathe?

I asked about the volunteering because what she said sounded active...she's feeling actively persecuted and blamed...she can feel that, have felt it, and continue feeling it without evidence to support it, ongoing...I was curious as to the level of her interaction at present with the school.

You fear that your WW might want to leave...could I extend that further...ask for more specifics to that fear...that if she doesn't see her addiction, she may choose to leave? Heightens your desire for her recognition (which you have no control, only influence) and increases your fear?

Will you consider how choosing to believe others are treating your WW like satan is not helpful; remaining neutral--you don't know, weren't there...either one way or the other--could you see how that is truer, separate, more respectful?

When we give evidence to our DJs...making cases through perception (and I am not claiming you are wrong about OM and others influenced), then we substantiate that DJs are helpful, have purpose...are necessary...when they aren't?

Still with you...I wait until I have anything to say...I ponder...I don't jump...or at least, try not to...

LA

HI LA.

Quote:
“What do you mean, you felt down for no reason?”

‘V been feeling down lately thinking about why did she flip overnight, is she being
Nicer so I get of her back?
Or she is sincere about the change.
Tuesday my counselor called her to see if she was willing to at least meet with him
For one session, she said she will think about it, yesterday she asked me why the C
Need to talk to her, I replied he got my side of the story, he needs you’re side of it,
He is only trying to help.

She said well I don’t think I want to go, I told her it’s your choice, if you don’t feel good about him it wouldn’t help.

She made it sound like she does want to go to counseling but not the ones the church are paying for, and not the one I’m using.

I said ok find one and start.

We’ve been talking lately no R talk no A talk, still no RC, still trying for RC.

Yesterday she was down, asked her why, she said I’m all right, and she changed her mood again.

I’m trying not to let her mood effect me but it’s hard, I might be able to keep
Her bad mood from affecting me, but I can’t help it but to feel better when she is in a good mood, why is that?

I don’t know; I’m still scared though, I’m still scared…

Tony.

All the way down the post...and you got to fear...

You still fear.

Sounds human to me...though I think you're mindreading is adding to your fears, not abating them...no payoff in that, is there?

Humans are made in the most complex design...we vibrate, really...many levels and speeds...inside and out...when someone is in a good mood, I think the vibration is higher, they are bringing to themselves, creating the environment...another human feels it, swells with it...like catching on and joining in on that creating process...even if we aren't aware we are...

What do you think?

LA

Yes LA I ‘m still afraid.

Quote:
“Humans are made in the most complex design...we vibrate, really...many levels and speeds...inside and out...when someone is in a good mood, I think the vibration is higher, they are bringing to themselves, creating the environment...another human feels it, swells with it...like catching on and joining in on that creating process...even if we aren't aware we are...”

I think you are right, we emit energy and people can feel it, negative or positive.


Tony.

Hi LA

I had a good weekend, DD had a dance recital, and WW asked me to ride earlier with them.
She is being harassed about going to church to the same service OM goes to, and she was tired of being told what to do, I agreed with her and I asked her if she wanted me to go
To church with her on Sunday, she reluctantly agreed.

We talked on Saturday I relayed some info to her about what OM had told me on the meeting we had, and this is what he has told me, told the pastor and told his wife,

His words.
“ She asked me on the first date, I didn’t know what to say, and I didn’t know how to stop it. I told her it was over, but she came to my service to see me about a month ago,
I had to grab my wife’s arm and run out to the car.”

So I think she understands why they are treating her so badly.

So we did go to church nobody approach her one of her friends joined us, we later went to lunch with her friend and we invited her to enjoy our new pool, it was a good afternoon.

And during dinner out of the blue she told me that she had called my IC and that she will
Talk to him.

I was surprised but glad she wants to. I will update on that.

I asked her if she believes me now that the A is an addiction and the only way to heal
Is have NC with OM and that her seeing him at church is a contact and this will set her of
To square one, she told me I saw the back of his head and he had his arm around his wife, to keep up appearances, and it didn’t bother me.
I told her this is considered a contact.
Any way one day you will understand.

WW do you want to work on our M?
“ I don’t know”

Do you realize how much you have changed in the last month right after you found my posts?

“Yes”

Do you still hate me?

“ No I don’t hate you”

Wow what a difference a month makes.

I do have hope now I think the fog is lifting a bit, she is starting to see the damage.

Like the pilot that dropped the first atomic bomb without a fling and he was devastated
When he went to ground zero and saw the destruction he had caused.

Tony

How respectful, Tony...do you see how respectful you are?

Big kudos.

Yes, time matters...what a difference a month makes...six months...a year...it's true. Stay present. Have faith.

Thanks for seeing her choice about IC. Don't do it for her. She can make the appt, attend, etc. I know you know this.

Keep focused on you, not her fog. How are you and the kids?

LA

Hi LA.

I’m doing better the kids have their ups and downs, even thought we don’t talk
Or argue in front of them they do feel something is wrong, they keep writing, little notes
For us I love you notes, they keep saying it to, a lot annoyingly a lot, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Bless their hearts.

My blessing is that I love those kids more then anything in the world, and she does to.
I told her once that taking care of those kids pulled us apart and I think their love for us will get us back together.

She knows I’ve read “between parent and child”, I told her about the book, I left it out
For her, she didn’t read it yet.

I’m trying to implement the ideas in this book but it’s really hard to do.

Tony.

Hi LA

I could swear I read on a post some time ago that you are going to have a grand child
Well?

Tony.

In December...a bit further off from now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My first grandchild. From my firstborn son.

What did you think of Between Parent and Child's ideas? Did you see it mostly for relating to your child?

Thank you for remembering my grandchild mention, and for noticing what you're children are doing during this most sensitive time.

LA

Goof evening LA.

This is a great book and it relates to communicating to any other person not only
Children it just makes sense.

Well I don’t know what happened at school today but she is in a very bad mood,
I asked her what happened she said, “ I don’t want to talk about it”

So I let it go I don’t know why she doesn’t talk to me about things until way later,
Like after a week or so. I’m just trying my best to be here for her, why doesn’t she see
This is the fog that thick?

I don’t know anymore I hope one day she will wake up and see that in all her chaos
And after my heart was ripped out of my chest I was the only one that stood by her side
Even tough it was hard to do.

I hope it wouldn’t be to late.

Tony.

And Congratulations

Bumping.
LA check on needtime, she needs a good input.

Tony,

Thanks for the heads up on needtime...and would you consider reading more BH's threads, or do you already?

Your wife can take care of her own moods...she chooses her level of honesty...I'm concerned about yours. She's still going to the school, Tony. She's choosing that.

How are you doing with yourself? Planning RC time with wife? Staying present?

I hear you going where you've gone all your life...into the future...am I correct?

LA

Hi LA.

You are welcome.

Yes I read other posts.

I know she can take care of her mood, but I can’t help it.
It’s so hard.

I know her level of honesty is hers, but it hurts when she doesn’t share.

I am very honest with here about my feelings, I wasn’t before but I am now.
Actually I told her yesterday “ I can’t imagine how humiliated you must feel when
They treat you this way, I don’t think I will be able to take it if I was you.”

About taking care of myself.

Well to be honest with you I’m not, it’s so hard LA it’s so hard to get of her roller coaster
It’s so hard to take care of myself when I know that she is hurting so much.

Actually I feel guilty when I think about taking care of myself.
I don’t know if I’m making sense here.

No RC planning yet. Don’t yell at me, I have a lot on my mind.
I will try to clear some space for that.

Tony.

Tony,

Have you read CoDependent No More?

You say this is so hard...yet you do and believe the hardest things...every day...you are saving your marriage, personally recovering from deep betrayal...you are living and breathing HARD, Tony...and you are doing it.

Does it help at all to know that the way you are choosing to live...through her...is a two-way street, not in your control...that by choosing this...then you are making her responsible for you...all of your stuff, hers?

I'm behind you with whatever you choose...recovery is a long time...until no contact is firmly established, as you well know, not even hearing about OM, let alone a visual sighting...then you won't get to withdrawal, understanding, and the rollercoaster will continue.

If you sympathize with your WW to score points so she will feel connected to you...is that pure intent? You did not choose to have an affair, continue contact, keep going to the place where OP is employed and supported, and submit to humiliation because of YOUR CHOICE.

Why are you guys sticking to that school? Not to save her humiliation, but to get to real no contact? I believe you are willing to do anything to save your marriage, keep an intact, loving family for your children...yet not this?

Please know you control you...you can help yourself...I know if you chose to fully believe that you were living disrespectfully, that it was harming your WW, then you would stop feeling her feelings, trying to cure her mooods, taking what is hers inside of you...I do. Until then, I believe that is how you have feel intimate, connected with your WW all these years...and when you experience real connection, respectful intimacy, then you will let go the false one...the enmeshed one...

You make great sense, Tony...by managing her feelings, you feel guilty to have your own...it's a fantasy you've had a long time...calling it love...and you get stuck back in that two-way belief street, because if you won't manage yours, only hers, then she will have to manage yours.

I believe this is how we're taught to love...and it's destructive. Unreasonable and unreal. There are a lot of fantasies in this life...not just the wayward one...and I believe the better we can see our fantasies, the less vulnerable we are to living them...which leads to all sorts of destructive behaviors, including affairs.

IMO.

You have a lot on your mind...when I ask these questions...how are you doing with...I am not demanding, though that may be what you hear...nor am I stating these ways are the only ways and you're failing...though you may be hearing that, also. I am demonstrating my support, my goal to aid in clarity, as you define a new marriage, a new way to live...that's my intent.

I'm not judging you...you are living your life exactly as you want to...making every choice along the way...as you have for your entire life. No yelling. No disparaging or threats here. My questions are just what they are...questions...

I appreciate you being honest here...practicing...being honest with your WW, your children, all those you meet...is the freest way to live, Tony.

You can do this.

LA

HI LA.

Thank you for the insight.
Please like I told you before feel free to say anything you want here, nothing you say
Is taken the wrong way or is considered offensive, I don’t even remember writing,
The “don’t yell at me “.
I was kidding.
I know your intentions are pure and you care about my situation.

Now with this said.

You know she had an appointment with my IC today, and she is been down the last
Couple of days.
I called her earlier she was on her way to the IC, she told me I don’t know what
He is going to ask I told her just tell him how you are feeling maybe he can help.
She said, “I’m not going there for me I’m going there for you.”
Apparently the IC asked her for her input so he can better help me.

I don’t know if I should be happy she is doing it for me, don’t get me wrong
She hasn’t done anything for me for a long time now, so I am very grateful
For this, but I wish that she was doing it to get some insight and some info
For her not for me, maybe for us.

From my experience in being here on MB and from all the research that I did
Knowledge is power; actually my knowledge of affairs gave me the ability
To do what I did and gave me the hope to keep doing it.

And no LA my sympathy with her is from the heart I never thought that she should be solely Blamed for the A and now knowing the OM I’m sure he had a lot to do with it.
I’m not defending her actions they where cruel and wrong but they where her choice, they hurt beyond believe, but I’m trying to heel, I do forgive or I did forgive but I will not forget.

I have the feeling that she doesn’t or can’t believe that after all the hurt this has caused me
That I could have forgiven her already.
Oops this was a DJ, sorry.

I do forgive her LA I do. I have no resentment towards her what so ever.

Sticking to the school.
All registrations are closed now it’s too late at this point.

Besides if she chooses to contact him the school is 5 minutes away from my house.

Quote:
“Please know you control you...you can help yourself...I know if you chose to fully believe that you were living disrespectfully, that it was harming your WW, then you would stop feeling her feelings, trying to cure her moods, taking what is hers inside of you...I do. Until then, I believe that is how you have feel intimate, connected with your WW all these years...and when you experience real connection, respectful intimacy, then you will let go the false one...the enmeshed one...”

You are right LA but I have no idea how to do this, I wish I could find the switch
To my brain so maybe I can just turn it off for a while, but there is no switch.
I read the manual there is no switches; god did not provide us with a way to turn it off.

Thank you for the words of encouragement LA.
Thank you for everything that you are doing here, for all the others and me.

Tony.

Update to my previous post.

Hi LA
I was reading NGU threads, and counting my blessings, and then I read Christhefool’s
Storry, MY WIFE IS AN ANGEL. I am a lucky guy. I still see some water in the glass, it’s not empty yet, and it’s not.

I got home last night and before I had a chance to ask her about the IC meeting,
She volunteered some info about it mostly about the counselor, and the fact they he knows one of her friends, and the pastor.
And she shared some of the things that went on at the meeting. I was glad she did.

Tony.