Just some thoughts - remember, they're worth what you're paying for them.

I've posted here before that my WH was a truly great guy - a great husband, a great dad - for the first ten years that we were married. And then, for some reason, it just stopped. Just stopped. And I never could figure out why.

Oh, he still paid the bills and showed no signs of leaving, and seemed happy when he *did* get around to coming home, but at the same time started ignoring me in the workplace (we both worked for the same company for a while), cutting me out of his worklife, sneaking out for long private lunches with female coworkers, behaving in public like their escort and companion and boyfriend, and keeping secrets like his many, many vists to strip bars while on his many, many business trips.

But there was a big hole in our relationship. Too much was missing. Too much was happening behind my back. I was being marginalized more and more and more.

And when I finally stood up to him about this, and wanting to put things back on track using MB techniques like POJA, he was SNARLING ANGRY about this. "I'll never give you that kind of control!" And just kept on keeping more secrets and sneaking around even more.

It's horrible. I stayed because I remembered very well who he had been for ten years and because I have a son still at home. But trying to reach him, or reason with him, or use MB techniques with him, was nothing but pounding my head against a solid concrete wall.

I knew *what* he was doing. He was treating me like an employee and a mommy and a part-time girlfriend and fully expecting me to accept these roles.

I just didn't know *why* he would ever want to do this.

For a long time I just assumed it was the girls and that I could not compete with them, but that didn't seem to entirely explain his actions or why he was so extremely resistant to ANYTHING that would have made our marriage better.

And rightly or wrongly, I wanted to know what the h*ll had happened to my life and to my family so that if nothing else, I could move on from this and know what to look for so it would NEVER happen to me again.

Okay, I think I've finally got it now. And I'm kicking myself for not seeing it sooner.

My H grew up poor. Dirt poor. In a family with too many kids and an alcoholic father and a non-working mother addicted to prescription drugs.

This didn't hurt him at first. While we were married for those ten years, he worked very hard to take care of his own family and was proud that we did not live anything like his FOO had.

But then the worst possible thing happened to him.

Not failure. Success. BIG success.

About ten years into our marriage, he became the Big Boss at work.

This very quickly became such a drug to him - the attention, the strokes, the girls, the perks, the extras, the goodies - that it went right straight to his head and his ego promptly became the size of the Planet Jupiter.

He honestly felt he was entitled to all of this because after all, he was the Big Boss, and the Big Boss can do anything he wants.

And being the Big Boss was so so so so great that it utterly consumed him, until he was no longer capable of playing any other role like "husband."

Especially "husband."

I've been saying to him for a long time that he stopped being my husband and that I wanted my husband to come home. I knew he'd morphed into something else, but I could not put my finger on exactly *what.*

I can put my finger on it now. It's the Big Boss. My husband went to lunch with a bimbo one day and the Big Boss came back. And there's been ONLY the Big Boss in my house ever since.

He honestly believes that our home and our marriage should operate on exactly the same rules that the workplace does - that the Big Boss makes all the plans and decisions and nobody questions his authority. It's as though it's never dawned on him that things would ever be done any other way.

Employees who are so out of line as to think they are the Big Boss's equal are first ignored, then threatened, and then have their lives made so miserable that they finally have no choice but to quit.

That's exactly what he's done to me.

He believes we could have a great marriage if I would just "stop fighting him" and "just accept what he does". Translation: Be a good little employee and stop thinking you are the Boss's equal. Just trust that the Boss always makes good decisions, so you don't need to be involved in them.

Can you imagine what would happen if a lowly little typist went into the CEO's office and said, "Hey, Mr. CEO, I've got an idea. I want you to run all your plans by me first and we'll make those decisions together. Okay?"

This, of course, is the POJA. Now, no CEO is going to POJA anything with their typist. The CEO would be very angry and offended by some typist daring to make such a suggestion and expecting to have that kind of control. The typist would probably get fired.

But this is EXACTLY how WH reacts when I want to use POJA. EXACTLY. He is extremely offended and snarling angry and demands to know why he shouldn't fire me.

dear gods

Dont' think I'm excusing him. I'm just trying to understand what the h*ll happened to my husband and to my life, because nothing ever happened *between us* to cause our relationship to go south.

No, it all falls right into place if I look at him like the Big Boss instead of like a husband. THEN it all makes perfect sense.

He is the Big Boss 24/7 and fully expects everyone to respond to him like the same Big Boss that he is in the workplace - and he is FURIOUS with me because of course I'm not going to do that.

I just wish I had been cognizant of this much sooner. Maybe I could have turned this around if I had stood up to him much earlier. I don't know. But he is so utterly consumed by this role - it is such a drug to him - that he shows every sign of being perfectly willing to abandon me here in the Southwest and move to Chicago the way his company wants him to do so he can work at their Headquarters and be an even Bigger Big Boss.

What kind of husband would ever dream of doing such a thing? Well, no husband in his right mind would ever do that. But a Big Boss will do it in a heartbeat and fire anyone who dares to get in his way.

The girls and the bimboes and the strippers are just a symptom. They're just part of the perks that the Big Boss is entitled to.

The real problem, the thing that really destroyed our marriage, is WH's total and utter addiction to the role of Big Boss to the point that it has consumed the man he was -- to the point that he expects EVERYONE, even his wife, to relate to him like the Big Boss and ONLY the Big Boss.

Some people cannot handle success. Think of all the rock stars and actors and politicians who were good and decent people before they got Big Success - and then went right out and destroyed themselves and their families when Big Success happened.

And you don't have to be famous or glamourous to let Big Success destroy you, too. Did you know that even Albert Einstein dumped his loving and very intelligent physicist wife, and their child, and married a bimbo when Big Success happened to him?

Understanding this is very helpful to me because it makes it MUCH easier for me to detach. It really does. That's why I have struggled for so long to understand what the h*ll happened to the great guy I married.

The Big Boss consumed him. That's what happened. That success and the perks and the girls were so utterly addictive that he let it destroy the man he was. Now there is nothing left but a cold-blooded, tyrannical Big Boss who honestly thinks he's entitled to be the Big Boss 24/7 and that his wife and family should relate to him exactly like everyone else does - like the Big Boss - and who is furiously angry and frustrated that they won't.

Does this make sense to anyone else? As I said, it helps me a lot to understand this. It goes a LONG way towards finally letting me detach from him. And surely that's worth a little (or a lot of) introspection, isn't it?
Mulan

I follow your analysis, Mulan. I'm not a shrink, but it makes sense.

Weird chit goes on in the minds of children so abused.

WAT

Mulan,
You have alluded to this line of thinking before in reference to your husband. Did you put this all together recently? I'm only curious, but I will admit that the flow of the idea makes perfect sense to me.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely is the phrase that comes to mind from what you have described.

I follow your thought on this and, sadly, it makes sense to me. I am afraid, however, that the only way of getting rid of the Big Boss is to have the Big Boss's world come crashing down and for the power to disappear. I mean that is the only way I have seen it work... usually, in the midst of power, most people are blind to the corruption that has overtaken them and can only see when the power is gone.

Not a happy thought really... but I do understand your post and I am really sorry that success had such a negative and costly affect on your life. Certainly does not seem right in the least.

Please take care.

patriot

My therapist and dr phil and numerous psychologists have talked about this phenomena within a marriage.

My therapist had to tell my husband straight up that I was not his employee. It became my mantra. "I am not your employee".

And you can have the power of the big boss, by leaving him and taking what you're entitled to, it may be the only way to wake him up to your power.

It sure does. I thought he was one who had learned from it and would actually have a better life because of it - but I sure was wrong about that.
Mulan

***You have alluded to this line of thinking before in reference to your husband. Did you put this all together recently?***

Yes. Just yesterday, in fact. And what a relief. I feel like the weight of the world (well, most of it) has lifted off my shoulders.

***I'm only curious, but I will admit that the flow of the idea makes perfect sense to me.***

I'm very relieved to know this. I was a bit afraid that y'all would think I was just trying to excuse him. That's not it at all. As Mr. Spock once said, "I understand. I do not approve."

***Absolute power corrupts absolutely is the phrase that comes to mind from what you have described.***

Boy, you are so right about that. Wish I'd thought of that one, because it's right on the money.

***I follow your thought on this and, sadly, it makes sense to me. I am afraid, however, that the only way of getting rid of the Big Boss is to have the Big Boss's world come crashing down and for the power to disappear. I mean that is the only way I have seen it work... usually, in the midst of power, most people are blind to the corruption that has overtaken them and can only see when the power is gone.***

Very true. I don't know what he would do if he ever lost that job. It would be like a crack addict suddenly being locked out of the crack house. But you know, that's why I've never really pushed him to find another job because I don't think that's the solution here. A crack addict will just go find another crack house. The problem is within the addict - not with the crack and not with the crack house.

Thanks very much for posting. I would love to hear Froz's take on this too, if she happens to read it.
Mulan

***My therapist and dr phil and numerous psychologists have talked about this phenomena within a marriage.

My therapist had to tell my husband straight up that I was not his employee. It became my mantra. "I am not your employee".***

Very interesting. Did it register with your H? Make any difference? Or did it just make him angry?

***And you can have the power of the big boss, by leaving him and taking what you're entitled to, it may be the only way to wake him up to your power.***

And of course you are right. That's the only way anyone *might* get through to someone else - or at the very least, just live like a human being and not like an employee in your own house.
Mulan

Before he confessed his affair I had tried to convey it but I really was at a loss of how to deal with our conflicts at that time, and he was so wayward he was living in a dream world.

My husband's rock bottom came when he convinced himself we were over. But I had instinctively started plan A, around 3 weeks before he confessed, but I was also starting to get suspicious, I was catching him not where he was supposed to be for example, and I still believed him, but I think the pressure was starting to freak him out.

After the confession, I got us a counselor and I complained about the bossing. And she told him straight up we're in a marriage, I'm not his employee. And she had credibility as a therapist, so whenever he did it after that, I would just say, "I'm not your employee". If you want to POJA we can, but I'm not your employee. I stood my ground.

Of course my husband was motivated to change.

this makes complete sense to me. and my question is - How/what could a spouse do to avoid it, or prevent it from happening?

My new H is one step below the big boss. I do not see any of these traits in him at this point , but I have been burned before by my XwH, and I come here to read, and digest, and understand how good M's go bad, so I can recoginze the problems early, when they first start.

I honestly don't see any of these red flags with my new H, but when you say that yoru H was truly a good H and father for 10 years, that is very scary to me. My H is an awesome H, awesome father. he says that if his company ever asked him to move he would turn them down, because he is a family man and committed to his family. I believe that, I really do. But at the same time, I know that my H has worked very hard to get where he is. he enjoys having a big house, a luxury car to drive. His parents divorced when he was only 5. He was raised by his alchoholic father and step mother. he ran away at age 15 to live with his gramma. he has over come a lot of crap in his life. He has every reason to be proud of his accomplishments.
So what on earth would a wife do to insure that her H continues to see her as a partner - not an emplyee.

Great thread Mulan.

***So what on earth would a wife do to insure that her H continues to see her as a partner - not an emplyee.***

If I had this to do over again, I would stay far more connected to him and far closer to him on an hour-by-hour, day-by-day basis.

I made the fatal mistake of not wanting to look like I was "stealing the spotlight" from him, when the truth is that as his wife I should always have been *sharing* it with him. Crikey, even in Hollywood the stars always bring their wives/husbands/significant others to their awards shows and events - but NOT EVER EVER EVER at WH's company.

And I made the equally fatal mistake of not saying much of anything when he starting ignoring me and marginalizing me. Oh, sure, I dropped a few hints, but that was worse than useless - that just made me one more female coworker stroking his ego. You know how it is - I didn't want to be a b*tch, the nagging wife, the old ball-and-chain.

That was the worst thing I could have done.

So - my advice would be Stay Connected, Stay Connected, Stay Connected. Watch very closely for any sign of him ignoring you, cutting you out, or marginalizing you.

My WH did/does this because as the Big Boss he insists he is entitled to socialize and enjoy time with the girls from work and not with me. He insists there is "nothing inappropriate" about this and it's all part of the job of "taking care of his people". I am the employee at home and if I would just accept that then gee life would be really good.

Yeah, it sure would. For him. For the Big Boss.

Watch closely. VERY closely.
Mulan

If I understand your explanation in Harley terms, your H has an overwhelming need for admiration...which is fulfilled through his work. This exaggerated need was created through 'lack of admiration' in his childhood homelife. Is that how you see it?

BTW, how have you been feeling Mulan? I recall a few weeks back you felt pretty blue. You mentioned your daughter moved away and your son was on a trip. How have you been doing?

By the way, when you guys are speaking about 'employee' treatment...can you give me an example?

Mulan,

For what it's worth, your analysis makes perfect sense to me, too. From a couple of different angles:

(1) Personally. I know only too well what it's like to take childhood trauma... stuff it in a little box with a tight lid... and bury it under layers of false bravado, external confidence, and accomplishments. All the while... making yourself and everyone around you believe that you've risen above the circumstances of your childhood and 'have it all together' despite what you went through. I guess there are some people who TRULY overcome various forms of child abuse... without outside help (counseling)... and manage to build healthy lives and relationships. The rest of it are just faking it... and it's bound to catch up with us sooner or later.

(2) My boss. He's a real BEAUT. Worst manager I've ever had. A champion, card-carrying conflict avoider. But when backed into a corner... he comes out snarling, spitting, snorting and swinging with both arms. Won't put up with any dissention or questioning of his "authority". Son of alcoholics, and an alledged recovered alcoholic himself. And he's had at least one affair.

IMO, your thoughts are very insightful. Very, very insightful.

So... now what?

was married to the same guy apparently also mulan honey....rough isn't it?

Mulan,

Any thoughts to what you are going to do now that things make more sense to you?

I have wanted to reach out to you before Mulan because I felt our stories were similar, but after reading this I KNOW my story is like yours. In fact, I could have written your post word for word.

My WH was the most honest, wonderful, loving, family oriented man for about 14 years of marriage. He took me and the kids everywhere with him. Loved us, made us feel safe, was always attentive to me.

He did not come from an abusive background, in fact had 2 parents who adored him. He was the youngest and the favorite ALWAYS! He was also the only child who went to college and did something with his life. While his parents were not poor they did not have many material things. WH when he was young was not allowed to spend money on things such as carnival rides or games or anything like that.

My WH father passed away in 1994 and this was a devastating blow to my husband who was away on deployment at the time. His Mom was never the same and passed away in 2001. I think the death of both parents had a significant affect on my WH.

We had a third child in 1997 and he was 8 years younger than our last child so this was a surprise to us although a blessing. This was around the time my H started pulling away from our family.

He changed jobs within the Marine Corps and became one of those IMPORTANT people. He went from being in the field taking care of his Marines to being in the public eye as a public affairs guy. THEN the worst thing that could ever happen to us, we got stationed in New York City.

My WH became the spokesman for the MC and all this fame and being in the lime light went right to his head. He started going out in bars, flirting with other women. He wore a uniform everyday and women literally flocked to him. I witnessed this first hand when my husband was hit on by many women while I stood by his side. So I guess for him it was easier to NOT have me by his side.

He started excluding me from events. I didn't really mind because I am the complete opposite of him. I HATE being in the lime light. I could stay home with my kids and be happy. I ALWAYS let my husband have the spotlight. I was ALWAYS the background girl. Quietly supporting my husband. I am a fiercely loyal person and take my job as wife and mother very seriously. To me there is nothing thicker than blood.

All of this lead to my H being a WH. I have never had evidence of a physical affair, but KNOW about many emotional affairs. But my WH is too arrogant to share his life or the lime light with anyone, so no one gets too close.

My WH is not the man I married and he is not the man that loved me and promised my parents he would take care of me no matter where we moved. I have NEVER lived close to my family and my H and kids have been my only family. I think that is why all of this is super hard for me. My rock, the only person who I could ever turn to is gone and it makes me so sad.

I agree with whoever said STAY CONNECTED. I made the mistake of stepping aside letting my WH have his day and I lost my H in the process.

I stay because I can't let go of the past. The wonderful man that my WH used to be. I know a lot of people say that, but my husband was the most family oriented person I have ever known besides my Dad. I keep thinking I will see that man again.

Thanks for posting this Mulan.

Mulan, your post struck a chord.

H told me after d-day that success definitely DID go to his head. The arrival of our children and my stopping work to look after them coincided with him getting promoted quickly to being a Pretty Important Person in his company. He said that he 'got a bit arrogant', began to feel that he was entitled to a lot of personal perks. Specifically, he felt that he was entitled to sexual relief after a stressful day, and the fact that I would be busy bathing the kids and getting them off to bed when he got home gave him a sense of entitlement to visiting prostitutes on the way home.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I have to say that I sensed this arrogance and entitlement attitude, and it made me very angry at the time. He denied it, of course, and frequently accused me of being difficult and in need of medical help - now he admits that I was spot-on. All of his emails to the various OWs show how entitled he felt to something beyond a loyal, loving and supportive wife.

Now, I think he is terrified of going back to that dark place. I was made redundant last year, and have been earning relatively little at a part-time job ever since. H has been in a state of simmering resentment about this; I've been interpreting his constant digs and criticism as being about him feeling he should not have to be the main breadwinner, but after your post, I wonder if he's worried that my 'lowly' status will push him back into his position of feeling entitled?

Food for thought.

Has your son finished his school year yet? Is freedom near?

TA

Wow, LITC - you could have written my post, and I could have written yours. I know exactly what you mean. When you talked about standing right there while other women hit on him and how that's when he started cutting you out, I again felt that awful gritty eating-a-cold-sh*t-sandwich feeling.

Both of us have cautionary tales for others. I guess that's why I keep posting.

Thanks for putting up your story.
Mulan

*** " . . . and frequently accused me of being difficult and in need of medical help . . . " ***

Oh, dear gods, he tells me this all the time. "You need help, Mulan," in the coldest and smugest voice imagineable.

Do you know that there is a name for this in psychiatry? For when somebody says or does something that they know will hurt you and then tell you that YOU need help for your "chemical imbalance" or your "depression"? It's called Gaslighting, after the movie of the same name. I started a thread about it not long ago. If you search under my user name, you'll see it.

Thanks for posting.
Mulan

***If I understand your explanation in Harley terms, your H has an overwhelming need for admiration...which is fulfilled through his work.***

Boy, you got that right. Now, really, I have always known that about him and IMHO this would be okay IF he did not cut me out of his life in order to get that admiration - and IF he had the wisdom not to suck it down like a wino locked in a liquor store but instead just enjoyed it in some sort of appropriate manner.

***This exaggerated need was created through 'lack of admiration' in his childhood homelife. Is that how you see it?

Well, not really - that may have been part of it, but plenty of men grow up poor and don't go hog-wild every time office bimbo waves her butt in his face.

I will say, though, that his upbringing certainly taught him nothing about respecting women or about how to manage success. He reminds me a lot of some sports figures who grow up in poor neighborhoods, make in big, and then have NO idea of how to moderate the perks and the girls and the money and the dope that comes their way. None at all.

***BTW, how have you been feeling Mulan? I recall a few weeks back you felt pretty blue. You mentioned your daughter moved away and your son was on a trip. How have you been doing?***

Better, thank you. WH is in China right now. He will be there until the middle of next week and intends to fly from there straight to Florida for the family reunion - you know, the one I am not allowed to attend. He also made plane reservations to Florida for DS18 without saying one word to me about it.

Now, is that the action of a husband and father? Or is it just The Big Boss doing what The Big Boss wants to do and not giving a damn about what the employees think?

Thanks for posting.
Mulan