Just some thoughts - remember, they're worth what you're paying for them.

I've posted here before that my WH was a truly great guy - a great husband, a great dad - for the first ten years that we were married. And then, for some reason, it just stopped. Just stopped. And I never could figure out why.

Oh, he still paid the bills and showed no signs of leaving, and seemed happy when he *did* get around to coming home, but at the same time started ignoring me in the workplace (we both worked for the same company for a while), cutting me out of his worklife, sneaking out for long private lunches with female coworkers, behaving in public like their escort and companion and boyfriend, and keeping secrets like his many, many vists to strip bars while on his many, many business trips.

But there was a big hole in our relationship. Too much was missing. Too much was happening behind my back. I was being marginalized more and more and more.

And when I finally stood up to him about this, and wanting to put things back on track using MB techniques like POJA, he was SNARLING ANGRY about this. "I'll never give you that kind of control!" And just kept on keeping more secrets and sneaking around even more.

It's horrible. I stayed because I remembered very well who he had been for ten years and because I have a son still at home. But trying to reach him, or reason with him, or use MB techniques with him, was nothing but pounding my head against a solid concrete wall.

I knew *what* he was doing. He was treating me like an employee and a mommy and a part-time girlfriend and fully expecting me to accept these roles.

I just didn't know *why* he would ever want to do this.

For a long time I just assumed it was the girls and that I could not compete with them, but that didn't seem to entirely explain his actions or why he was so extremely resistant to ANYTHING that would have made our marriage better.

And rightly or wrongly, I wanted to know what the h*ll had happened to my life and to my family so that if nothing else, I could move on from this and know what to look for so it would NEVER happen to me again.

Okay, I think I've finally got it now. And I'm kicking myself for not seeing it sooner.

My H grew up poor. Dirt poor. In a family with too many kids and an alcoholic father and a non-working mother addicted to prescription drugs.

This didn't hurt him at first. While we were married for those ten years, he worked very hard to take care of his own family and was proud that we did not live anything like his FOO had.

But then the worst possible thing happened to him.

Not failure. Success. BIG success.

About ten years into our marriage, he became the Big Boss at work.

This very quickly became such a drug to him - the attention, the strokes, the girls, the perks, the extras, the goodies - that it went right straight to his head and his ego promptly became the size of the Planet Jupiter.

He honestly felt he was entitled to all of this because after all, he was the Big Boss, and the Big Boss can do anything he wants.

And being the Big Boss was so so so so great that it utterly consumed him, until he was no longer capable of playing any other role like "husband."

Especially "husband."

I've been saying to him for a long time that he stopped being my husband and that I wanted my husband to come home. I knew he'd morphed into something else, but I could not put my finger on exactly *what.*

I can put my finger on it now. It's the Big Boss. My husband went to lunch with a bimbo one day and the Big Boss came back. And there's been ONLY the Big Boss in my house ever since.

He honestly believes that our home and our marriage should operate on exactly the same rules that the workplace does - that the Big Boss makes all the plans and decisions and nobody questions his authority. It's as though it's never dawned on him that things would ever be done any other way.

Employees who are so out of line as to think they are the Big Boss's equal are first ignored, then threatened, and then have their lives made so miserable that they finally have no choice but to quit.

That's exactly what he's done to me.

He believes we could have a great marriage if I would just "stop fighting him" and "just accept what he does". Translation: Be a good little employee and stop thinking you are the Boss's equal. Just trust that the Boss always makes good decisions, so you don't need to be involved in them.

Can you imagine what would happen if a lowly little typist went into the CEO's office and said, "Hey, Mr. CEO, I've got an idea. I want you to run all your plans by me first and we'll make those decisions together. Okay?"

This, of course, is the POJA. Now, no CEO is going to POJA anything with their typist. The CEO would be very angry and offended by some typist daring to make such a suggestion and expecting to have that kind of control. The typist would probably get fired.

But this is EXACTLY how WH reacts when I want to use POJA. EXACTLY. He is extremely offended and snarling angry and demands to know why he shouldn't fire me.

dear gods

Dont' think I'm excusing him. I'm just trying to understand what the h*ll happened to my husband and to my life, because nothing ever happened *between us* to cause our relationship to go south.

No, it all falls right into place if I look at him like the Big Boss instead of like a husband. THEN it all makes perfect sense.

He is the Big Boss 24/7 and fully expects everyone to respond to him like the same Big Boss that he is in the workplace - and he is FURIOUS with me because of course I'm not going to do that.

I just wish I had been cognizant of this much sooner. Maybe I could have turned this around if I had stood up to him much earlier. I don't know. But he is so utterly consumed by this role - it is such a drug to him - that he shows every sign of being perfectly willing to abandon me here in the Southwest and move to Chicago the way his company wants him to do so he can work at their Headquarters and be an even Bigger Big Boss.

What kind of husband would ever dream of doing such a thing? Well, no husband in his right mind would ever do that. But a Big Boss will do it in a heartbeat and fire anyone who dares to get in his way.

The girls and the bimboes and the strippers are just a symptom. They're just part of the perks that the Big Boss is entitled to.

The real problem, the thing that really destroyed our marriage, is WH's total and utter addiction to the role of Big Boss to the point that it has consumed the man he was -- to the point that he expects EVERYONE, even his wife, to relate to him like the Big Boss and ONLY the Big Boss.

Some people cannot handle success. Think of all the rock stars and actors and politicians who were good and decent people before they got Big Success - and then went right out and destroyed themselves and their families when Big Success happened.

And you don't have to be famous or glamourous to let Big Success destroy you, too. Did you know that even Albert Einstein dumped his loving and very intelligent physicist wife, and their child, and married a bimbo when Big Success happened to him?

Understanding this is very helpful to me because it makes it MUCH easier for me to detach. It really does. That's why I have struggled for so long to understand what the h*ll happened to the great guy I married.

The Big Boss consumed him. That's what happened. That success and the perks and the girls were so utterly addictive that he let it destroy the man he was. Now there is nothing left but a cold-blooded, tyrannical Big Boss who honestly thinks he's entitled to be the Big Boss 24/7 and that his wife and family should relate to him exactly like everyone else does - like the Big Boss - and who is furiously angry and frustrated that they won't.

Does this make sense to anyone else? As I said, it helps me a lot to understand this. It goes a LONG way towards finally letting me detach from him. And surely that's worth a little (or a lot of) introspection, isn't it?
Mulan

I follow your analysis, Mulan. I'm not a shrink, but it makes sense.

Weird chit goes on in the minds of children so abused.

WAT

Mulan,
You have alluded to this line of thinking before in reference to your husband. Did you put this all together recently? I'm only curious, but I will admit that the flow of the idea makes perfect sense to me.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely is the phrase that comes to mind from what you have described.

I follow your thought on this and, sadly, it makes sense to me. I am afraid, however, that the only way of getting rid of the Big Boss is to have the Big Boss's world come crashing down and for the power to disappear. I mean that is the only way I have seen it work... usually, in the midst of power, most people are blind to the corruption that has overtaken them and can only see when the power is gone.

Not a happy thought really... but I do understand your post and I am really sorry that success had such a negative and costly affect on your life. Certainly does not seem right in the least.

Please take care.

patriot

My therapist and dr phil and numerous psychologists have talked about this phenomena within a marriage.

My therapist had to tell my husband straight up that I was not his employee. It became my mantra. "I am not your employee".

And you can have the power of the big boss, by leaving him and taking what you're entitled to, it may be the only way to wake him up to your power.

It sure does. I thought he was one who had learned from it and would actually have a better life because of it - but I sure was wrong about that.
Mulan

***You have alluded to this line of thinking before in reference to your husband. Did you put this all together recently?***

Yes. Just yesterday, in fact. And what a relief. I feel like the weight of the world (well, most of it) has lifted off my shoulders.

***I'm only curious, but I will admit that the flow of the idea makes perfect sense to me.***

I'm very relieved to know this. I was a bit afraid that y'all would think I was just trying to excuse him. That's not it at all. As Mr. Spock once said, "I understand. I do not approve."

***Absolute power corrupts absolutely is the phrase that comes to mind from what you have described.***

Boy, you are so right about that. Wish I'd thought of that one, because it's right on the money.

***I follow your thought on this and, sadly, it makes sense to me. I am afraid, however, that the only way of getting rid of the Big Boss is to have the Big Boss's world come crashing down and for the power to disappear. I mean that is the only way I have seen it work... usually, in the midst of power, most people are blind to the corruption that has overtaken them and can only see when the power is gone.***

Very true. I don't know what he would do if he ever lost that job. It would be like a crack addict suddenly being locked out of the crack house. But you know, that's why I've never really pushed him to find another job because I don't think that's the solution here. A crack addict will just go find another crack house. The problem is within the addict - not with the crack and not with the crack house.

Thanks very much for posting. I would love to hear Froz's take on this too, if she happens to read it.
Mulan

***My therapist and dr phil and numerous psychologists have talked about this phenomena within a marriage.

My therapist had to tell my husband straight up that I was not his employee. It became my mantra. "I am not your employee".***

Very interesting. Did it register with your H? Make any difference? Or did it just make him angry?

***And you can have the power of the big boss, by leaving him and taking what you're entitled to, it may be the only way to wake him up to your power.***

And of course you are right. That's the only way anyone *might* get through to someone else - or at the very least, just live like a human being and not like an employee in your own house.
Mulan

Before he confessed his affair I had tried to convey it but I really was at a loss of how to deal with our conflicts at that time, and he was so wayward he was living in a dream world.

My husband's rock bottom came when he convinced himself we were over. But I had instinctively started plan A, around 3 weeks before he confessed, but I was also starting to get suspicious, I was catching him not where he was supposed to be for example, and I still believed him, but I think the pressure was starting to freak him out.

After the confession, I got us a counselor and I complained about the bossing. And she told him straight up we're in a marriage, I'm not his employee. And she had credibility as a therapist, so whenever he did it after that, I would just say, "I'm not your employee". If you want to POJA we can, but I'm not your employee. I stood my ground.

Of course my husband was motivated to change.

this makes complete sense to me. and my question is - How/what could a spouse do to avoid it, or prevent it from happening?

My new H is one step below the big boss. I do not see any of these traits in him at this point , but I have been burned before by my XwH, and I come here to read, and digest, and understand how good M's go bad, so I can recoginze the problems early, when they first start.

I honestly don't see any of these red flags with my new H, but when you say that yoru H was truly a good H and father for 10 years, that is very scary to me. My H is an awesome H, awesome father. he says that if his company ever asked him to move he would turn them down, because he is a family man and committed to his family. I believe that, I really do. But at the same time, I know that my H has worked very hard to get where he is. he enjoys having a big house, a luxury car to drive. His parents divorced when he was only 5. He was raised by his alchoholic father and step mother. he ran away at age 15 to live with his gramma. he has over come a lot of crap in his life. He has every reason to be proud of his accomplishments.
So what on earth would a wife do to insure that her H continues to see her as a partner - not an emplyee.

Great thread Mulan.

***So what on earth would a wife do to insure that her H continues to see her as a partner - not an emplyee.***

If I had this to do over again, I would stay far more connected to him and far closer to him on an hour-by-hour, day-by-day basis.

I made the fatal mistake of not wanting to look like I was "stealing the spotlight" from him, when the truth is that as his wife I should always have been *sharing* it with him. Crikey, even in Hollywood the stars always bring their wives/husbands/significant others to their awards shows and events - but NOT EVER EVER EVER at WH's company.

And I made the equally fatal mistake of not saying much of anything when he starting ignoring me and marginalizing me. Oh, sure, I dropped a few hints, but that was worse than useless - that just made me one more female coworker stroking his ego. You know how it is - I didn't want to be a b*tch, the nagging wife, the old ball-and-chain.

That was the worst thing I could have done.

So - my advice would be Stay Connected, Stay Connected, Stay Connected. Watch very closely for any sign of him ignoring you, cutting you out, or marginalizing you.

My WH did/does this because as the Big Boss he insists he is entitled to socialize and enjoy time with the girls from work and not with me. He insists there is "nothing inappropriate" about this and it's all part of the job of "taking care of his people". I am the employee at home and if I would just accept that then gee life would be really good.

Yeah, it sure would. For him. For the Big Boss.

Watch closely. VERY closely.
Mulan

If I understand your explanation in Harley terms, your H has an overwhelming need for admiration...which is fulfilled through his work. This exaggerated need was created through 'lack of admiration' in his childhood homelife. Is that how you see it?

BTW, how have you been feeling Mulan? I recall a few weeks back you felt pretty blue. You mentioned your daughter moved away and your son was on a trip. How have you been doing?

By the way, when you guys are speaking about 'employee' treatment...can you give me an example?

Mulan,

For what it's worth, your analysis makes perfect sense to me, too. From a couple of different angles:

(1) Personally. I know only too well what it's like to take childhood trauma... stuff it in a little box with a tight lid... and bury it under layers of false bravado, external confidence, and accomplishments. All the while... making yourself and everyone around you believe that you've risen above the circumstances of your childhood and 'have it all together' despite what you went through. I guess there are some people who TRULY overcome various forms of child abuse... without outside help (counseling)... and manage to build healthy lives and relationships. The rest of it are just faking it... and it's bound to catch up with us sooner or later.

(2) My boss. He's a real BEAUT. Worst manager I've ever had. A champion, card-carrying conflict avoider. But when backed into a corner... he comes out snarling, spitting, snorting and swinging with both arms. Won't put up with any dissention or questioning of his "authority". Son of alcoholics, and an alledged recovered alcoholic himself. And he's had at least one affair.

IMO, your thoughts are very insightful. Very, very insightful.

So... now what?

was married to the same guy apparently also mulan honey....rough isn't it?

Mulan,

Any thoughts to what you are going to do now that things make more sense to you?

I have wanted to reach out to you before Mulan because I felt our stories were similar, but after reading this I KNOW my story is like yours. In fact, I could have written your post word for word.

My WH was the most honest, wonderful, loving, family oriented man for about 14 years of marriage. He took me and the kids everywhere with him. Loved us, made us feel safe, was always attentive to me.

He did not come from an abusive background, in fact had 2 parents who adored him. He was the youngest and the favorite ALWAYS! He was also the only child who went to college and did something with his life. While his parents were not poor they did not have many material things. WH when he was young was not allowed to spend money on things such as carnival rides or games or anything like that.

My WH father passed away in 1994 and this was a devastating blow to my husband who was away on deployment at the time. His Mom was never the same and passed away in 2001. I think the death of both parents had a significant affect on my WH.

We had a third child in 1997 and he was 8 years younger than our last child so this was a surprise to us although a blessing. This was around the time my H started pulling away from our family.

He changed jobs within the Marine Corps and became one of those IMPORTANT people. He went from being in the field taking care of his Marines to being in the public eye as a public affairs guy. THEN the worst thing that could ever happen to us, we got stationed in New York City.

My WH became the spokesman for the MC and all this fame and being in the lime light went right to his head. He started going out in bars, flirting with other women. He wore a uniform everyday and women literally flocked to him. I witnessed this first hand when my husband was hit on by many women while I stood by his side. So I guess for him it was easier to NOT have me by his side.

He started excluding me from events. I didn't really mind because I am the complete opposite of him. I HATE being in the lime light. I could stay home with my kids and be happy. I ALWAYS let my husband have the spotlight. I was ALWAYS the background girl. Quietly supporting my husband. I am a fiercely loyal person and take my job as wife and mother very seriously. To me there is nothing thicker than blood.

All of this lead to my H being a WH. I have never had evidence of a physical affair, but KNOW about many emotional affairs. But my WH is too arrogant to share his life or the lime light with anyone, so no one gets too close.

My WH is not the man I married and he is not the man that loved me and promised my parents he would take care of me no matter where we moved. I have NEVER lived close to my family and my H and kids have been my only family. I think that is why all of this is super hard for me. My rock, the only person who I could ever turn to is gone and it makes me so sad.

I agree with whoever said STAY CONNECTED. I made the mistake of stepping aside letting my WH have his day and I lost my H in the process.

I stay because I can't let go of the past. The wonderful man that my WH used to be. I know a lot of people say that, but my husband was the most family oriented person I have ever known besides my Dad. I keep thinking I will see that man again.

Thanks for posting this Mulan.

Mulan, your post struck a chord.

H told me after d-day that success definitely DID go to his head. The arrival of our children and my stopping work to look after them coincided with him getting promoted quickly to being a Pretty Important Person in his company. He said that he 'got a bit arrogant', began to feel that he was entitled to a lot of personal perks. Specifically, he felt that he was entitled to sexual relief after a stressful day, and the fact that I would be busy bathing the kids and getting them off to bed when he got home gave him a sense of entitlement to visiting prostitutes on the way home.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I have to say that I sensed this arrogance and entitlement attitude, and it made me very angry at the time. He denied it, of course, and frequently accused me of being difficult and in need of medical help - now he admits that I was spot-on. All of his emails to the various OWs show how entitled he felt to something beyond a loyal, loving and supportive wife.

Now, I think he is terrified of going back to that dark place. I was made redundant last year, and have been earning relatively little at a part-time job ever since. H has been in a state of simmering resentment about this; I've been interpreting his constant digs and criticism as being about him feeling he should not have to be the main breadwinner, but after your post, I wonder if he's worried that my 'lowly' status will push him back into his position of feeling entitled?

Food for thought.

Has your son finished his school year yet? Is freedom near?

TA

Wow, LITC - you could have written my post, and I could have written yours. I know exactly what you mean. When you talked about standing right there while other women hit on him and how that's when he started cutting you out, I again felt that awful gritty eating-a-cold-sh*t-sandwich feeling.

Both of us have cautionary tales for others. I guess that's why I keep posting.

Thanks for putting up your story.
Mulan

*** " . . . and frequently accused me of being difficult and in need of medical help . . . " ***

Oh, dear gods, he tells me this all the time. "You need help, Mulan," in the coldest and smugest voice imagineable.

Do you know that there is a name for this in psychiatry? For when somebody says or does something that they know will hurt you and then tell you that YOU need help for your "chemical imbalance" or your "depression"? It's called Gaslighting, after the movie of the same name. I started a thread about it not long ago. If you search under my user name, you'll see it.

Thanks for posting.
Mulan

***If I understand your explanation in Harley terms, your H has an overwhelming need for admiration...which is fulfilled through his work.***

Boy, you got that right. Now, really, I have always known that about him and IMHO this would be okay IF he did not cut me out of his life in order to get that admiration - and IF he had the wisdom not to suck it down like a wino locked in a liquor store but instead just enjoyed it in some sort of appropriate manner.

***This exaggerated need was created through 'lack of admiration' in his childhood homelife. Is that how you see it?

Well, not really - that may have been part of it, but plenty of men grow up poor and don't go hog-wild every time office bimbo waves her butt in his face.

I will say, though, that his upbringing certainly taught him nothing about respecting women or about how to manage success. He reminds me a lot of some sports figures who grow up in poor neighborhoods, make in big, and then have NO idea of how to moderate the perks and the girls and the money and the dope that comes their way. None at all.

***BTW, how have you been feeling Mulan? I recall a few weeks back you felt pretty blue. You mentioned your daughter moved away and your son was on a trip. How have you been doing?***

Better, thank you. WH is in China right now. He will be there until the middle of next week and intends to fly from there straight to Florida for the family reunion - you know, the one I am not allowed to attend. He also made plane reservations to Florida for DS18 without saying one word to me about it.

Now, is that the action of a husband and father? Or is it just The Big Boss doing what The Big Boss wants to do and not giving a damn about what the employees think?

Thanks for posting.
Mulan

***By the way, when you guys are speaking about 'employee' treatment...can you give me an example?***

Here are a couple of mine - everyone else, please feel free to add yours:

1) Making plans and decisions with total disregard for your needs and feelings. Insisting that you should "just trust them to make good decisions" and acting like they can't understand why you need to know anything about their plans and decisions in the first place. Does your boss at work take YOU into consideration when making his/her personal decisions?

2) Violent, snarling resistance to things like POJA. Would your boss at work agree to POJA everything with you in the workplace? What do you think his/her reaction to this would be if you suggested it?

3) Coming around to you when they want something from you, and ignoring you when they don't. Perfectly normal in the workplace. Emotional abuse in a marriage.

Feel free to add more.
Mulan

OMG! I feel so irritated just READING that, I can't imagine how inscensed you must feel hearing it!!

I am breaking my sarcasm-defense habit...but THAT comment would
elicit a:

Pause. Stare down.

Sarcastically "You know, you look so strong and sexy when you say that to me."

Sorry, had to get that one of my chest!!

(((((Mulan)))))

Get out of there. That would drive someone NUTS!

My H didn't have a "Huge Success" situation..but I STILL feel a bit of this applies to our situation..from a slightly different angle.

He was successfull and it did happen quickly..but what was really detrimental to our relationship was the polarization not the success.

See..in order for him to have the time and availability to make these acheivements..somebody ELSE had to do all the other nonwork related stuff.

Noodle <--- somebody else.

Effects this had?

1 He didn't have to do it himself and so had an easy time finding fault.

2 It set us up to have seperate lives..ie while he was doing A I was doing B..both needed to be done and every day..soooo you get the idea.

3 His work situation was brassy. Lots of ceremony and inflated egos. Lots of admiring women as well [love those uniforms guys]. Double lives were the norm not the exception.

4 Lack of empathy from ME regarding just how hard he was working every day..he felt unappreciated as well.

5 Financial inequality. He was sole provider.

6 The Way things are done at work [where you are the boss] and the way things are done on my watch ain't the same no way no how. I don't hop to..I do it when I say so, if I say so. I have actually said before..I am not one of your soldiers.

Mulan..I really think that your husband HAS come to view your marriage as a business partnership and is planning to fire you.

I know how weird that sounds..but this family reunion reeks of being excluded from a meeting or some such nonsense. The sort of thing that happens when an employee is being cast out.

It seems he has lost himself as a man..that his identity as Boss has overcome him.

Mulan is outside the circle of trust [holds up paper with big circle and Mulan a dot outside of it a la meet the parents].

I know that this dynamic was changeable in my marriage..but it climaxed much sooner..we didn't have the slow build and change of personality.

In your case..this has occurred over such a large portion of his life that I think it would probably take something really..and I mean REALLY extreme to break that facade. I don't think losing you will be enough and I'm really sorry about that. I hope I'm wrong.

Oh, I understand what you are saying. I was picturing a diluted version of the problem....like making demands and expecting errands and an assistant.

This goes deeper. This is like you are not even an employee, but an ornament. An appliance.

""You need help, Mulan," in the coldest and smugest voice imagineable."

Hey I get this too. Please replace Mulan with HL.

It has some close relatives as well. "You are crazy", "You don't make any sense", "How could you feel that way" and if none of these work there is the distant relative. "WHATEVER"

All meant to illicit the same response. Anger. Do you fall into it?

Do you get angry and off track? I used too. Then I realized that was a way to stop any uncomfortable conversation for FWW right in its tracks.

I have to go. It is late and REM is needed to be productive tomorrow...but I wanted to say that you have support here Mulan. Be strong. You are worth it.

Good night.

*** " . . . and if none of these work there is the distant relative. "WHATEVER" ***

Oh, yes - I hear "whatever" all the time.

You do realize that the translation of "Whatever" is "You've hit the truth and I don't like it." Right? Remember that the next time you hear it!
Mulan

"Whatever" is one word that is not *allowed* in my home.

Sound extreme?

Mulan,

Whatever in my house means that I have hit the nail on the head and any subsequent dialog will only prove that to be true.

Now when my FWW says "whatever" I say thank you for agreeing. LOL. She says I didn't agree. I say "whatever". Just kidding. I wish I said that.

Funny how the FWS all think they are so different. LOL.

{{{{Mulan}}}}

It's scary, but it does make sense...

WH is in China right now. He will be there until the middle of next week and intends to fly from there straight to Florida for the family reunion - you know, the one I am not allowed to attend. He also made plane reservations to Florida for DS18 without saying one word to me about it.

Not Allowed? Not Allowed???

Who has forbidden it??

It would be a cold day in ****** before I let someone be the boss of me over that one.

I say...GO.

You have got to start standing up for yourself. If you don't start acting like you are somebody in that relationship, you are going to continue being nobody in that relationship. You have power...you just refuse to see it and act on it.

YOUR son is going to be there. YOU are a part of that family whether he likes it or not.

I would go and blow him *kisses* everytime I caught his eye.

I would +wink+ at him like we were sharing one colossal secret that no one else is privy to.

Not allowed....not even. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

committed

***Mulan..I really think that your husband HAS come to view your marriage as a business partnership and is planning to fire you.
I know how weird that sounds..but this family reunion reeks of being excluded from a meeting or some such nonsense. The sort of thing that happens when an employee is being cast out.***

You may well be right. I think it's meant more as severe punishment as a last-ditch effort to force the bad employee back in line . . . but you may be right.

***It seems he has lost himself as a man..that his identity as Boss has overcome him.***

Oh, exactly. And I don't think he has any idea in the world of how to get that identity back. It's like Darth Vader trying to go back to being the innocent Anakin Skywalker again. How does anyone do that?

***Mulan is outside the circle of trust [holds up paper with big circle and Mulan a dot outside of it a la meet the parents].***

Noodle, hon . . . I ain't even on the paper. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

*** . . . I think it would probably take something really..and I mean REALLY extreme to break that facade. I don't think losing you will be enough and I'm really sorry about that. I hope I'm wrong.***

No, I think you're right on the money.

I could handle this better if he had not put my son square in the middle of this. I can't even wrap my brain around the fact that he made a plane reservation for that boy and said not one word to me about it. It's gutless and heartless all at the same time. Yes, DS is 18 years old, but who in the world would do something like this and say not one word to the boy's mother???

When was I going to find out? Were they going to lie and tell me he was somewhere else???

Funny thing -- I have not called him or sent any emails since he left. The last voice mail message I left was a quiet request that I spelled out was for My Husband - NOT the Big Boss - for My Husband not to do such a cold-blooded thing as go to a family gathering in front of my son where I am specifically not welcome and not invited.

That was it. You have to own what you want, right? Well, he can't say I didn't ask for what I wanted.

After that, I took the house phone off the hook and keep my cell phone with me for work and my kids to call. WH does not have the cell phone number. He never asked for it.

But now I am receiving angry emails saying how he got up at 5:00 a.m. in Shanghai so he could call me and how he's called several times now and is so frustrated because "he can't communicate anything to me".

That's funny because usually he cannot be bothered to call or email hardly at all - only "at the end of the day because that's all the time he has."

Very Interestink.
Mulan

Mulan,

Wow, your WH is similar to mine because WH is close to being the Big Boss at his work and his Big Big Boss loves him. WH could do no wrong in Big Big Boss' eyes.

Although we haven't been married very long, H was Big Boss in our relationship when we were dating and when we married.

H was very supportive of me while I was in law school but as soon as I graduated, H felt intimidated. H probably felt that he was no longer the Big Boss at home. I think H became WH when he saw that I was moving up in the legal world. As I started spending more time at work (and just work), he continued to stay loyal to me. While I gained more momentum at work, H started to feel neglected. WH started going out with his co-workers who drink like fish. They are also unfaithful to their spouses.

Before I knew it, WH was already in A. WH even admits that "it all happened so quickly." OW is co-worker, 8 years younger, immature, mousy, looks like a 12 yr old and is a subordinate. Looking back, I think WH was looking something completely opposite of me because he wanted to be "Big Boss" again.

What was strange was at MC, WH said that he was drawn to me because I was "ambitious, goal driven and confident." Okay, I didn't think I changed at all. I think I've kept to the same traits. Now, it's WH that has changed. He wanted to be the Big Boss again and I wasn't going to tolerate it.

WOW!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Not ALLOWED to attend a "family" function????
Say What! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Man Oh man,
I knew things were out of Whack in your situation,
but come On! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

To continue to live under this Regime must be Life Draining to say the Least.

Its Tough when staying OR leaving Both Suck.

***Its Tough when staying OR leaving Both Suck.***

Thank you for perfectly summing up my situation. That's exactly how it is.

Here are my choices:
I can give in and be forced to live as an employee, mommy and part-time girlfriend to a tyrannical Big Boss. I'll be rewarded for it. I will get to stay in the house with DS18 and I will get things like new cars and weekend dates and ooh yeah I'll be allowed to go to the
family reunion.

or

I can resist being a servant to the Big Boss and hold out for respect and equal partnership as a wife. I will be severely punished for this on a daily basis by being ignored, being made an unperson, and being ordered to stay away from family gatherings even when my own son is there.

or

I can turn my back and abandon my own family - abandon DS18 who still lives at home.

They all suck. You're right. You're sure right about that.
Mulan

"I can give in and be FORCED to live as an employee,"
Bad choice. First and formost nobody can force you to do anything you don't want to do. This really is not A proofing your M.

When I hear stuff like this it makes me think that one day the BS will meet an OP and have every reason to justify an A. It may or may not happen but you are certainly not in a situation that your EN's are being met. Why do people have A's?

"I can resist being a servant to the Big Boss" or you can "REFUSE" instead of resist.

When FWW and I talked about our "Jobs" mine was the one that brought in the money and she was a SAHM. Both jobs were equally stressful. IMHO being a SAHM is the most important job in our M because the kids are important. It however is not always the hardest job. If you mess up at home on a big project you probably won't get fired. If you miss a deadline you won't get written up. Your commute to work is pretty short. Both people are contributing equally but your job is just more important in the grand scheme of things.

Just because he is the big boss at work does not mean he is one at home. Your job your stress are real and equally important.

By letting him be the big boss you are devaluing yourself. Now if you are punished by that with silence etc what are you losing?

Well if I could chose silence and punishement from him or no self worth. I think I would chose silence. I KNOW I am worth a lot. If my S doesn't agree then so be it. I will not agree that I am not.

"I can turn my back and abandon my own family - abandon DS18 who still lives at home."

Or you can stick by your family DS18 and show her what being a strong woman can do.

DS18 is old enough to understand you are not abandoning the family. You are not abandoning your H or your M. You will be abandoning a toxic unfair relationship.

Children learn from their parents. What is DS18 learning now? It is ok for WH to run around and the woman should stay.

I am not suggesting a D here.

I would go with refuse to accept it and face what might be coming.

OWN what is yours and enforce your boundries.

Right now you are giving him no reason to live within them.

He is doing what he wants and getting away with it.

HE is not your boss he is your equal(not treating you like one). Probably because you let him treat you like that.

Choices are hard when they all suck but sometimes you have to chose the least suckiest thing.

***I would go with refuse to accept it and face what might be coming.***

That's what I've been doing.

***OWN what is yours and enforce your boundries.***

I do. And I have been severely punished for this for years.

***Right now you are giving him no reason to live within them.***

HL, I have refused to go along with this for a long time. But you know what? *I* can't give him a reason to go live within my boundaries. *He's* the only one who can do that.

My boundary is that I will not participate in his life as an employee, a girlfriend or a mommy. To date, being without me in his life has not made any difference to him.

***He is doing what he wants and getting away with it.***

Yes, he is. That's because being without me in his life is clearly NOT a consequence to him. I thought it would be. I was wrong. I have learned that he does NOT want a wife unless he can have one without being a husband - unless he can have a part-time wife while he remains Big Boss 24/7.

***HE is not your boss he is your equal(not treating you like one).***

Okay - maybe *you* can tell him that and maybe he'll listen to you. Everytime I tell him that, he gets furiously angry - but I have known for a long time now that he always gets furiously angry anytime I hit on an uncomfortable truth and/or catch him in a lie. It's very, very consistent.

***Probably because you let him treat you like that.***

HL, if you've got any suggestions, I'm listening. I have massively resisted his rotten treatment of me. He severely punishes that by ignoring me and cutting me out of life even further, all the while making it clear that he'd be glad to keep me as a part-time wife if I would just accept his role as Big Boss.

I have refused to do that at every turn. That is why I live a very lonely life and post too much on MB and will certainly be divorced within the year.

I just posted this thread in an effort to understand what the h*ll happened to the wonderful husband I used to have. It seemed to have struck a chord with several posters and for that I am grateful.

Thank you for posting to me.
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

Big Bosses will not tolerate being ignored. They DEMAND attention. Big Bosses HATE the 180 plan. Something to consider.

Big Bosses also have $$$ and exW's. Seriously, I'd get a shark of a lawyer and D his hiney before some OW jumps up preggers. But that's just me - Dru

"I have learned that he does NOT want a wife unless he can have one without being a husband - unless he can have a part-time wife while he remains Big Boss 24/7."

Good for you!!!! and I am very serious when I say that.

You have learned something from this.

I also like how you are very introspective but are owning yours.

I could tell him but he probably wouldn't listen to me or anyone else.

"HL, if you've got any suggestions, I'm listening. I have massively resisted his rotten treatment of me. He severely punishes that by ignoring me and cutting me out of life even further, all the while making it clear that he'd be glad to keep me as a part-time wife if I would just accept his role as Big Boss. "

Yes I have a suggestion. I think LA wrote this:
""Boundaries are what you do not allow others to do you without progressive enforcements"

He is crossing your boundries but for you it doesn't seem like there is progressive enforcements. Not bashing you because I did the same exact thing.

FWW kept crossing my boundries and I accepted it without enforcing my boundries in a progressive way.

Each time I acted the same. You did it again or you are doing it again.

One day my FWW crossed my boundries again and I progressed pretty darn far in my enforcement. I told her I was tired of it and I am done. Now of course I have said this before but what happened next is what may have changed it.

She said well let work it out, lets try MC.

I said I don't think it will do any good at this point. I want to think about it for a while but I think a D is a better idea.

I did a 180 not to manipulate but to give me time to think.

For the first time I think she actually saw a possibility of me not tolerating this anymore. That I wasn't a willing partner in this dance.

I honestly haven't decided to stay yet and she knows this.

I can't count the amount of times I have puffed out my chest and said "I am mad as ****** and I am not going to take it anymore" Just to let my gut out again and take it a couple more times until I did it again.

Kinda like a shampoo bottle. Rinse, lather, repeat.

So what I would say is what would be the next step in your progressive enforcement. Plan B? A divorce? A separation? Try the next step if that doesn't work keep progressing your enforcement.

When I was a kid my mom could yell at me all day everyday because it had no affect on me. Been there done that. When yelling no longer worked she had to figure out another way to punish me to get her point across.

Read my signature about insanity.

I know this. I will readily admit I have not been good at detaching (to say the very least). I know it only feeds his ego to see how very upset I get over his actions. I know perfectly well that this only reassures him that I'll hang around forever and he can do whatever he wants. Sheesh, I have told many posters here myself that this is the case and detaching is what they should do but I've been a real failure at doing this myself.

This time, though, his extremely cruel and gutless actions of planning all along to go to this family thing, and making arrangements for DS18 to go, all the while letting me walk around thinking these people were still my family and I would be going too when he had no intention of going with me - as I said, I even bought a new dress for the occasion - has finally disgusted even ME enough to take some action.

Or, maybe I should say NOT take action.

I haven't called him or emailed him since Monday. Today's Thursday. That's gotta be a record for Mulan.

Here - lemme post the two emails I got from him from China. For length and content, these are far more than I normally EVER get from him.

Email #1:
I got up at 5 am trying to get ahold of you. As you know, I have limited opportunities to call you. I now have to go get on a phone call with japan and then meetings all day.

I don't agree with you on much of this.

(Translation: I am the Big Boss and if I don't agree with you, then it should be done it My Way.)

I also do not feel you are taking the right steps to take care of yourself.

(This is a reference to "you need psychiatric help, Mulan.")

You are probably going to be upset by that statement but it is the truth.

(He is clearly hoping I'll be upset by it because that's when I start trying to call him. It didn't work this time.)

I will try to call you before I go to bed tonight.

(Did he call? Who knows? I had the house phone off the hook.)
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

************************************************
Email #2:

I have called you numerous times. The home phone is busy.

(Yes, it sure is. It's off the hook. That helps Mulan detach. She will not sit around waiting for the phone to ring when she knows it CAN'T ring.)

I have major problems with everthing that is going on here.

(Really? I don't see how that's possible. He is getting absolutely everything he wants. How could that be a problem for him? Seriously? He's getting to take DS18 to his week-long family party and is not hearing a word from me about it. Isn't that what he wants?)

I cannot communicate anything to you because you don't answer the phone when I get the chance to call.

(But I'm not supposed to mind when all I get is his voice mail at EVERY hour of the day or night.)

As an FYI. My Aunt is in intensive care for some type of heart
issue.

(Okay, let's get this straight - These people have thrown me out of their family and WH is perfectly okay with that, but now he's sending me news about one of them being ill? Am I supposed to send flowers, or what? Anybody know what the etiquette is in a situation like this?)
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

Okay -- just tell me not to call or email. Just keep telling me that. Just tell me it's okay to post useless tripe here on MB for everyone's reading amusement if it keeps me from calling or emailing him.

thanks.
Mulan

instead of a shrink

go see a dance instructor !!!!

dance therapy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

email him ... I've made an appointment with (name) for therapy ... (hee hee)

Pep

Mulan,

Going from bad to worse.

Now do not get mad at me but maybe you do need to talk to someone. This dynamic is not healthy for you.

Maybe go find someone that can help you change your part in the dynamic. Might be a shrink, dance instructor, priest or attorney.

You can only change yourself and own your part in the dynamic.

"Dear WH - I've made an appointment for therapy, just as you said I should. It's with Errol Flynn. Turner Classic Movies is showing *The Sea Hawk* today and I've never seen it. I intend to get the very most out of this intensive two-hour therapy session. And if that's not enough, there's always Patrick Swayze and *Dirty Dancing*. I've been told that that dance therapy is very good for abandoned, lonely women."

Of course, no emailing is allowed so I will not really send anything. Great idea, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
thanks
Mulan

What would be the point? You DONT want to go to reunion, right? Sounds like it'd be miserable, I'd certainly not want to go.

No point on answering him just to let him dress you down, again. RESIST! And go have some fun while he's gone. Practice how you'd live if you were D'd (minus the dating)... How would you fill your day?

Read up on 180, start having a fun life! Find a class to take, Dancing, like Pep suggested... painting, cooking... take a weekend trip with a girlfriend? Look for a lawyer and an apartment? New hair style? Get your naval pierced?

RESIST! And do something to make yourself smile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> - Dru

HL, I know what you are saying and I understand. And you are right - it certainly is not healthy for anyone to be part of such a dynamic and I'm well aware that any counselor worth a damn would ask me right off the bat: "Why do you stay?"

And I could only tell them the same thing I tell everyone at MB: Becasue of my son.

You gotta understand, though - WH only wants me to go to a "shrink" so that the "shrink" can tell WH that Mulan has a chemical imbalance, or is clinically depressed, or is bipolar, or has unresolved childhood issues.

WH wants some "shrink" or counselor to say that my emotional breakdown has NOTHING to do with his actions but is just a coincidental problem that I have.

He also wants them to put me on some kind of medication to "cure" me and keep me quiet and make me happy to be an employee and part-time girlfriend instead of a wife.

I offered to go to anyone WH wanted me to see if he would do two things:

1) Make the appointment himself with the person HE thinks I should see.
2) Go with me so he will hear everything that is said.

He refuses to do this. He wants me to go alone and get "help". He now blames me even more for "refusing to get help."

Did I mention that there is an Errol Flynn movie on TV today? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Mulan,

I completely understand what you are saying. My FWW was/is the same way.

I was the problem. I needed to see someone.

She actually told me I had anger issues and I need help.

Now this is the person who: pushed a neighbor and had the cops show up at our house, engaged in a fistfight with my Aunt because my Aunt refused to watch our kids when my FWW was going out with OM, and pushed, hit and choked me and was charged with domestic abuse.

I finally told her I don't have anger issues. I get angry at certain issues big difference. You lying to me is an issue that makes me angry.

"He refuses to do this. He wants me to go alone and get "help". He now blames me even more for "refusing to get help."

I resemble that statement.

Finally I told you that I finally have progressed my enforcement. I now have no problem walking out of the door no matter what the consequences.

Before I wouldn't. In other words I will not stop right before D I will progress to a D.

Now I understand the kid thing I have two of them but you know what. What am I teaching them if she doesn't treat me right? What am I teaching them if she doesn't respect me?

You know if he is the big boss you are entitled to half of everything, unless you signed a prenup.

He can't kick you out or withold money.

Go see an attorney and find out what you are entitled to. It may make you more powerful in your dealings with him.

It sounds to me like there are more reasons that this.

Mulan,
Thanks for starting such a great thread. I'm seeing my relationship dynamic all over the place here.

When we met, I was the powerbroker and H was a lowly graduate student. After 13 years, and 2 kids, our roles have reversed. HE is the boss, and I'm the underling.

Just last night we had a "date" and he tried to make it seem like he was trying to POJA. Each time I disagreed, he just dismissed me and said he was doing it HIS way.

I can't wait to post more, but I need some time and solitude to collect my thoughts. Let me just say it is amazing there are so many women here that have experienced the same fate because of an imbalance of power in the M.

***Just last night we had a "date" and he tried to make it seem like he was trying to POJA. Each time I disagreed, he just dismissed me and said he was doing it HIS way.***

Exactly. As I mentioned on another thread, sure, my WH actually has agreed to POJA - as long as HE gets to decide what we will POJA and what we won't.

Can I nominate that statement for the WS Hall of Shame?

It would really be hilarious if it weren't so jaw-droppingly arrogant and selfish.

imanotherone, I look forward to your post. I am actually caught by surprise at the number of people who see themselves in this Boss/Employee marriage situation.
Mulan

There is a story that Queen Victoria, who really did love her husband Albert, once ordered him out of her office because she thought he was interfering somehow with her authority.

He left in silence and went to their bedroom and locked himself in. But the Queen was mightily annoyed and followed him, and knocked loudly on the door.

"Who is it?" Albert said.

"Don't be silly!" Victoria shouted. "It's the Queen!"

Silence.

Victoria knocks loudly again.

"Who is it?" Albert said.

"Open this door! It's the Queen!"

Silence again.

Finally Victoria knocks gently on the door.

"Who is it?"

"It's your wife."

Albert opened the door and let her in, and no such incident ever happened between them again.

Even kings and queens end up learning that they cannot be the Boss and Underling to each other. To others, perhaps, but never to each other.

I sure wish I had realized what was going on, the way Albert clearly did, and had done the same kind of thing he did before it was too late. He did exactly the right thing. By all accounts Victoria and Albert had a very close and loving marriage up until he died much too early, and she mourned him for the rest of her life.

Mulan

Hi Mulan,

I remember posting to you long ago about this. I'm a Big Boss, and I've seen this more than a few times with my coworkers and Big Boss clients. I see these men belittling their wives and wonder why the W's dont take them to the cleaners and find someone who is nice to them. I always assume the W's are in it for the $$$ and have OP's of their own. You are proof that's not the case.

And it's probably worse than you think... you know you dont have the full story. I cant believe how often I hear about prostitutes being involved with these big deals. Yuck and double yuck. I'm trying to get OUT of this business, I can see my Golden Parachute in the distance. I've grown to detest big corporate business and decided I had to get out. It's very depressing - IF you are not one of the BB's taking advantage of it all...

If he's not willing to negotiate it doesnt leave you much room.

DO NOT EMAIL HIM... Just a friendly reminder! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Please take care and do something FUN for yourself - Dru

YOu know, it's funny how we post to each other without really knowing the magnitude of the muck and mire we are each stuck in. I truly had no idea what you go through on a daily basis.

You've really hit the nail on the head with this series of posts. My WH grew up dirt poor. 3rd of 7 kids. Went to bed hungry many nights. Hand-me-down clothes and garbage pile cast-offs. Fast forward 40 years and he is the successful one. Not successful by many standards but makes a comfortable living, owns own business, etc.

He has always had to have the big trucks, the Harley motorcycle, had a cell phone early on, etc. Perception is everything. For him, it's all about people being able to SEE that he made something of himself. Now, he could have $300, 000 in the bank and drive a Ford Ranger but people wouldn't be able to SEE the success; you don't go around sharing your check register with everyone.

He likes to portray himself as a big shot. He wants people to think he has money. He's a real charmer and acts very humble but is really quite arrogant. I've been told that he has kept me around (separated 2 years and he's had multiple affairs during that time) for the $ I make which is twice what he makes and the med insurance.

Once, when asked by someone why he didn't divorce me and move on his answer was "It ain't costing me anything".

He has also told me that I "need help". I need to find a counselor because I've got some real problems. I agree b/c I am still married to him and still putting up w/his crap!!!!

He also isn't very tall; average height of 5 ft 8 in. He has that "little man" or Napolean syndrome I think. He's quite cocky.

Oh Mulan,

My ex was exactly the same...same words, same actions,same transference of guilt, same trying to make me the one who needs help.

Now he is expanding his reportoire to include the kids and their reactions to his behavior and his bimbo's behavior. He uses the same amo with them.

I agree that this type of person feels entitled...and we are all in this world to worship the ground they walk on. Pretty amazing.

I am sad that you have had to live like this also. At least it does feel good to know that others have gone through what I have lived through. Doesn't make me feel as "Stupid" for putting up with it for 22 (26) years.

I was his ornament, his military wife, his mother of his children. In his case, I think his mom and dad taught him that he was (and is the most important thing in the world...and by God, the sexiest too according to his mother).

He has found a new "soulmate" to worship him...and she doesn't realize that she is falling into the same trap...oh well....I have to admit I don't feel sorry about that....in fact, I am finally at the point that I am enjoying the show.

Take care...and my prayers for a much better future for you and all of us. Pat

Hi, movinon - I do remember you from a few years ago. I hope things are better for you now. They do sound like it.

For all y'all who are reading here - if you haven't already, you might want to check out the Passive/Aggressive thread on the In Recovery Board. It seems to have a lot in common with this one.

thanks to everyone for the responses -
Mulan

Thanks...I am doing much better. Still miss my family...but in reality...I have my family...my four kids. The rest is not as important any more.

I am still teaching, in fact tomorrow is my last day of summer school...yeah.

I am also getting my masters and the ususal hectic schedule of kids...but that I wouldn't trade for anything. He is missing out on so much...things he will never be able to replace...but, oh well.

I don't wake up any more thinking about them every second of the day...in fact some days, I don't think of him at all anymore. Other days, I still reel from the pain--but those days are coming less and less often.

I had a great epiphany 2 weeks ago...I QUIT getting drawn into their outrageous emails...I read them, copy them...and delete them....and I haven't answered one!!! That is progress!!!!

Anyway, I had better head to bed...one more day before summer vacation....Can't wait....Take care, Pat

Mulan, I agree it is amazing how many of us find ourselves in this situation. Seems each R takes it's own path, but we all seem to reach this end result.

I'll probably break my story into several posts, just to keep people from getting too bored.

First, when H and I met, 20 years ago, I was the strong-willed, popular one. When we both got our Master's degrees, I chose to take a high-paying job in California and he chose to stay in Florida to get his Ph.D. I was making a ton of money, but I spent a lot of it flying him out to visit, or flying me back to Florida. I also paid all the phone bills and financed the vacations.

I eventually moved back to Florida for the sake of the relationship, and took a pay cut. Still, I was pretty driven, and managed to double my salary in less than 5 years. H took a job working for the university, which paid ok, but really didn't have much clout. We got married after dating for almost 7 years.

We decided that I would quit my high-paying job when I got pregnant. We also moved to another part of Florida, and started our own consulting company. Because my H was the Ph.D., I spent considerable time "boosting" his image. I would gush about his talents, etc.

Funny thing, when I was pregnant only 3 months, I remember a conversation H had with a friend, and they talked for hours about his work and other stuff, but almost no mention of me. At the end, he said, "Yeah, ima's still pregnant." Back in the old days, he would talk about my latest trip or some promotion I got. Once I left that job, and started putting the power in his role, I started slowly losing his respect and admiration.

I don't think my H used to value respect and admiration as his EN's. But once he started being the primary breadwinner, I think it went to his head. At the time, none of this was obvious to me. I just gave up little bits of power, so little each time that I didn't really notice how much I had given up.

Fast forward to today, where H just makes unilateral decisions about money and household choices and business and doesn't consult me, and often doesn't even inform me at all.

About 2 and a half years ago, I made some conscious decisions that really sent things downhill. I'll go into that in my next post.

About 2 and a half years ago, we had a huge product roll-out planned for a trade show. About six months before that, we did a little inventory of our time, and realized there weren't nearly enough hours in the days for us to get this project finished.

Our marriage was already rocky, and we had been in counseling for over a year. We told the counselor that we were in for some really rough times ahead with this project, so things were going to be even more stressful than they already were.

I decided to make a concession to not ask anything of my H during that time, essentially giving him permission to ignore my EN's (didn't call them that at the time.). I also didn't call him on it when he was rude or disrespectful to me, even in front of friends or colleagues. I said to myself, "If we can just get through the next 6 months without a meltdown, I'll be sure to jump down his throat if he does it after we're done."

I even allowed him to insult me, and I even used self-deprecating humor to diffuse tension caused when H was rude to our workers. I even told him once, "you can be rude to me all you want, but if you treat our workers that way, they're gonna quit, so cut it out!"

Funny, huh? Basically, I gave him permission to treat me poorly, and even encouraged it to take the weight off other people in our life. This went on for about 6 months.

Guess what I wasn't thinking about? When someone does something for 6 months, IT BECOMES A HABIT. (We're always told, if you can keep up something, like working out or eating right, for six months, you've probably got that habit for good.) Well, H really got the habit of sh!tting on me.

So, when the project was completed, I naturally expected him to just end all the gruff behavior and become more sensitive, etc. I was stunned when it didn't turn around on me. I started asking for better treatment, but by then, H had lost all respect for me, and just called me a crazy nag.

I started to believe him, and I backed off. I came to expect being treated badly, and I became a mean nag about all kinds of things.

H started doing a lot of travelling for work, and started adding days on his trips, "for alone time." Since he was such an [censored] when he was home, I welcomed his absence. Didn't take long before he met some little young thing at one of his work functions, and started his A.

Now I'm in a really bad situation, since H still doesn't respect me or believe in POJA. His A is ended, but the wreckage of our marriage is everywhere. Neither of us has filed anything yet, but I really don't see any hope at this point. I keep reading on MB, because I keep hoping a magical solution will drop out of the sky.

Well, Ima - you and I do seem to have a lot in common. Both WHs feel free to treat us like employees and are angered and threatened at the idea of having to treat us like equals.

And like any other Boss with an insubordinate employee, they feel free to ignore and punish until the employee either 1) caves in and gets back in line, or 2) becomes so miserable that she finally quits.

You said you made a conscious choice not to stand up to him for a certain amount of time. Years ago, I made a conscious choice not to be demanding when he ignored me, being afraid I would be labeled a "b*tch" or a "nagging wifey" or a "ball-and-chain."

I think we've learned what massive mistakes we made. All we did was teach these men it was okay to treat us like employees and not like equal partners.

The only magic solution that might drop out of the sky is the one used here so often - Plan B.

Have you thought about it?
Mulan

This thread is overlapping very nicely with the one over on In Recovery about Passive/Aggressive WSs.

Something I have seen in the corporate workplace, and I have no doubt my WH (as a big-shot corporate manager) has used himself, is the tactics for dealing with a problem employee. You know, one who doesn't respect the boss's authority like they should.

In today's lawsuit-happy society, corporations are squeamish about firing people that they just don't like. So, instead of just firing someone outright, they use tried-and-true Passive/Aggressive tactics to deal with the problem.

First, they ignore that employee.

Second, they make veiled threats about demotions or job loss.

Third, they take steps to make that employee's life so miserable that the poor slob will finally just quit.

The most extreme form of Step Three is something called The Window Seat. The employee being punished is literally given a desk by a window and does receive a paycheck - but gets nothing else. He has no work. He is not invited to meetings. His colleagues will not speak to him. The message is clear - we don't want you and we don't need you. Please leave.

Anybody here feel like they've been given a Window Seat by their WS? I sure have. P/A tactics at their finest.
Mulan

Hi Mulan-
Very good observations. I think the window seat analogy is one many of us have seen in our M's. Personally, I'll just sit in my window office and enjoy my paycheck and view, and play solitaire or read MB on the computer.

Ah, that would be nice, but not at all reflective of my typical day at the "office." Too much dealing with kiddies, contractors, company issues, and the rest. But, I definitely ame getting the window seat treatment all the same.

Mulan, I have considered the Plan B, but have chosen not to for a couple of reasons:

First, it is exactly what my H wants. He doesn't want me around. I think he woudl love to start a whole new life, if I can just get out of his line of vision.

Second, our lives are very entangled, given the mutual business, family home, and small children. H would never leave the house, but would love it if I did (without the kids, of course).

Third, because of the business, I would rather go through divorce than just plan B, because there is a considerable liability in H's job, whereas mine is very safe. I don't like being an officer (uncompensated) in a corporation where I'm assuming risk without reward.

I know divorce is probably the best answer, but still dragging my feet. I've been reading a little bit about "the 180's" and am wondering if that might be something worth trying. Not even sure if it is recommended in my type of situation.

My relationship problem is somewhat rare on MB board. Basically, H has ended the A, but I'm still not willing to work on it too much, since I don't trust H. My FWH tried for a while to work on it, but really prefered the idea of his controlled separation book instead of HN/HN. He was able to "get away with more" IMO, with the controlled separation plan.

I really am at an impasse, but I keep trying to figure a way out of this rut, a way that does the least amount of damage to the children. I think this is an excellent thread, though, and I've learned a lot already.

Wow. These stories are eerily similar to my situation this last year. For us, we met on both our first day of work at a previous employer. I was a level higher than he was and even became his boss for a few weeks before he found a new project.

We got along well during that time - dating, then engaged. The whole time I worried because I made more money than H, had a Master's degree that he doesn't have, and was a higher level. I had always been conditioned that boys don't like girls who are smarter than they are. So, I always downplayed my success.

Once H left the company for the place he works now, he started to get bigger raises and kept getting promoted -- he was 'in' with the 'old boys' there. Soon after, we had kids - and I took a job with a more 'family friendly' company.

Until I read this thread, I assumed the birth of our first child was what caused the downward trend in our R. But, that was about the time he started making more money than me, got promoted, etc. Instead, I now think that's when he lost respect for me. WH had always dated women at least a few years older than him, including his previous boss before me. Now that he's the boss, I guess he doesn't need to date one. OW is older than him, but a lower level and uses him to help her get ahead.

While the PA has been over for a while, OW has been using WH, who acts like an addict and a teenager chasing her, to stroke her ego and help her career. She's gotten him to agree to this platonic friendship to prop up her low self esteem. WH is too stupid to see how she's just using him.

In the meantime, we have a 1 year old and 3 year old. I'm not about to give up one minute of their childhood (not even every other weekend and Wednesdays) while they are so small. So here I sit - his nanny, housekeeper, someone who brings in additional $$ - and he won't even share the smallest details about his day to day life (and asks nothing about mine). I might as well be a piece of the furniture here. I've gotten my own life (as much as one can with two toddlers and a full time job), exposed, plan A'd, looked the other way, etc. I just haven't found anything that will wake him up. I think Plan B might, but, again, that means selling the house and giving up time with the kids.

Sorry...didn't meant to turn this into a pity party for me...just wanted to say 'this is a great thread' and 'I'm right there with ya' I could write a book about his skilled passive agressive tactics, too.
Trixie.

Trixie-
Yep, I think we should start a special club for our little group. I agree with you--I don't want a pity party. Just hearing everyone's stories helps me understand how the dynamic that worked so well early on in our relationship was not stable.

As women, if we choose to take a subordinate role during the young children stage, we need to make sure the new role commmands the same respect. Not all women are as doomed as I am--I have 2 friends who gave up their high paying job and stayed home PERMANENTLY to raise the family. Both husbands absolutely worships them and talk about what a wonderful role-model the moms have become.

Guess what? Those husbands also seem to be much less ego-centric. Not nearly as much clawing their way to the top, and more focus on the family. Hmmmm.....

Mulan,

What a great post. You posted on my thread and I've checked this one out. My WS is the BIG BOSS and almost the BIG BIG BOSS...soon.

My IC said too much power is corruptive. My WS has too much. Thankfully he isn't in charge of the family run law firm...but the reigns are being handed over. He has had the most votes ever to be elected to the school board.

He is a successful attorney in a small town. He looks like a movie star. He is charming. He was tan when he was born. Woman flock to him. He wears name brand everything. He drives a saab and has xfm radio and a cell phone that has access to the net.

[color:"green"]

A LITTLE HUMOR:
Like that song..."I'm a model, you know what I mean and I do my little dance on the catwalk, on the catwalk, on the catwalk....I'm too sexy for shirt, too sexy for my shirt...that it hurts."

or that other song..."I'm on my way I'm making it BIG TIME..."

or how about..."If you want to be happy for the rest of your life...make an ugly man be your wife."...I had to make it rhyme. ha ha
[/color]



My WS ego is Jupiter...I've never seen a man strut and stalk a crowd like he could have any "feline object" he wanted. Yes, he might even appeal to you. He is hot...darnit.

We were at a party once when a man said to him..."you're so beautiful I might have to kiss you...." well anyway, yes he was married...to a woman.

He has power over OW. His last name carries with it "respect" and "influence" and "$" for several generations in our small village. He is the local JFK. PUKE.

OW once told me (we were friends)..."you "Play" being a (WS last name) very well" ...WHAT??? Oh puke. She wants to be Queen to his King...how very nice for them. When they're done role playing and they get upset with their dysfunctional royal subjects etc. etc. ...I must admit I hope for their own personal development they'll look in the mirror and say..." [color:"purple"]Mirror, mirror on the wall who is the betrayed after all?[/color]" ....Why, my fair WS and OW you're the betrayed after all.

All I can say is that I'm happy living in the village while they play kingdom...maybe that is what that post is about...the kingdom of Carelon(sp.?)..or something here on one of these MB sections ...I still can't "get" that thread.

...but I digress.

Mulan...why is that your name? I'm curious.

Strongest

Hi Strongest,
Yes, your WH sounds very much like mine - popular, handsome, outgoing, women love him, and a hero to everyone except his own wife.

***Mulan...why is that your name? I'm curious.***

A few years ago WH, DS18 (he was about 15 then) and I went to Disney's California Adventure. At the time, they had a lovely exhibit where you could sit down in front of a magic book, answer a few questions, and have the book tell you which Disney character you resemble most.

WH was Hopper, the giant grasshopper from *A Bug's Life* who was a tyrannical boss to all the other bugs. WH was not amused.

DS was Hades, Prince of the Underworld from *Hercules*. DS was delighted.

The book told me I was Mulan, "who fights for her family."

I've used Mulan as my MB name ever since.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know, the movie Mulan was on last night, and I watched it with my DD9 and DS5. We all love it--what a great nickname!

I've been thinking about this...Does anybody else's bossy WH remind them of a school yard bully? WH tries to motivate everyone with fear. He walks all over his parents because they never set any boundaries for him - I think they were afraid: a. that he wouldn't like them b. that his renowned temper would be displayed. He keeps everyone off balance because he is not afraid to write people off if they do something he doesn't like. Like the kids who packs up his marbles and goes home when he gets afraid he might lose. I guess I'm thinking about all of this because of my son and how I don't want him to turn out to be a bully. Every now and then I'll feel that fear or working Mom guilt that initially makes me want to give in to his tantrum...but then, I think about his Daddy and sad it is that he keeps everyone at arms length by making them afraid. I wonder what the fear or insecurity is inside of him that makes him this way.