***By the way, when you guys are speaking about 'employee' treatment...can you give me an example?***

Here are a couple of mine - everyone else, please feel free to add yours:

1) Making plans and decisions with total disregard for your needs and feelings. Insisting that you should "just trust them to make good decisions" and acting like they can't understand why you need to know anything about their plans and decisions in the first place. Does your boss at work take YOU into consideration when making his/her personal decisions?

2) Violent, snarling resistance to things like POJA. Would your boss at work agree to POJA everything with you in the workplace? What do you think his/her reaction to this would be if you suggested it?

3) Coming around to you when they want something from you, and ignoring you when they don't. Perfectly normal in the workplace. Emotional abuse in a marriage.

Feel free to add more.
Mulan

OMG! I feel so irritated just READING that, I can't imagine how inscensed you must feel hearing it!!

I am breaking my sarcasm-defense habit...but THAT comment would
elicit a:

Pause. Stare down.

Sarcastically "You know, you look so strong and sexy when you say that to me."

Sorry, had to get that one of my chest!!

(((((Mulan)))))

Get out of there. That would drive someone NUTS!

My H didn't have a "Huge Success" situation..but I STILL feel a bit of this applies to our situation..from a slightly different angle.

He was successfull and it did happen quickly..but what was really detrimental to our relationship was the polarization not the success.

See..in order for him to have the time and availability to make these acheivements..somebody ELSE had to do all the other nonwork related stuff.

Noodle <--- somebody else.

Effects this had?

1 He didn't have to do it himself and so had an easy time finding fault.

2 It set us up to have seperate lives..ie while he was doing A I was doing B..both needed to be done and every day..soooo you get the idea.

3 His work situation was brassy. Lots of ceremony and inflated egos. Lots of admiring women as well [love those uniforms guys]. Double lives were the norm not the exception.

4 Lack of empathy from ME regarding just how hard he was working every day..he felt unappreciated as well.

5 Financial inequality. He was sole provider.

6 The Way things are done at work [where you are the boss] and the way things are done on my watch ain't the same no way no how. I don't hop to..I do it when I say so, if I say so. I have actually said before..I am not one of your soldiers.

Mulan..I really think that your husband HAS come to view your marriage as a business partnership and is planning to fire you.

I know how weird that sounds..but this family reunion reeks of being excluded from a meeting or some such nonsense. The sort of thing that happens when an employee is being cast out.

It seems he has lost himself as a man..that his identity as Boss has overcome him.

Mulan is outside the circle of trust [holds up paper with big circle and Mulan a dot outside of it a la meet the parents].

I know that this dynamic was changeable in my marriage..but it climaxed much sooner..we didn't have the slow build and change of personality.

In your case..this has occurred over such a large portion of his life that I think it would probably take something really..and I mean REALLY extreme to break that facade. I don't think losing you will be enough and I'm really sorry about that. I hope I'm wrong.

Oh, I understand what you are saying. I was picturing a diluted version of the problem....like making demands and expecting errands and an assistant.

This goes deeper. This is like you are not even an employee, but an ornament. An appliance.

""You need help, Mulan," in the coldest and smugest voice imagineable."

Hey I get this too. Please replace Mulan with HL.

It has some close relatives as well. "You are crazy", "You don't make any sense", "How could you feel that way" and if none of these work there is the distant relative. "WHATEVER"

All meant to illicit the same response. Anger. Do you fall into it?

Do you get angry and off track? I used too. Then I realized that was a way to stop any uncomfortable conversation for FWW right in its tracks.

I have to go. It is late and REM is needed to be productive tomorrow...but I wanted to say that you have support here Mulan. Be strong. You are worth it.

Good night.

*** " . . . and if none of these work there is the distant relative. "WHATEVER" ***

Oh, yes - I hear "whatever" all the time.

You do realize that the translation of "Whatever" is "You've hit the truth and I don't like it." Right? Remember that the next time you hear it!
Mulan

"Whatever" is one word that is not *allowed* in my home.

Sound extreme?

Mulan,

Whatever in my house means that I have hit the nail on the head and any subsequent dialog will only prove that to be true.

Now when my FWW says "whatever" I say thank you for agreeing. LOL. She says I didn't agree. I say "whatever". Just kidding. I wish I said that.

Funny how the FWS all think they are so different. LOL.

{{{{Mulan}}}}

It's scary, but it does make sense...

WH is in China right now. He will be there until the middle of next week and intends to fly from there straight to Florida for the family reunion - you know, the one I am not allowed to attend. He also made plane reservations to Florida for DS18 without saying one word to me about it.

Not Allowed? Not Allowed???

Who has forbidden it??

It would be a cold day in ****** before I let someone be the boss of me over that one.

I say...GO.

You have got to start standing up for yourself. If you don't start acting like you are somebody in that relationship, you are going to continue being nobody in that relationship. You have power...you just refuse to see it and act on it.

YOUR son is going to be there. YOU are a part of that family whether he likes it or not.

I would go and blow him *kisses* everytime I caught his eye.

I would +wink+ at him like we were sharing one colossal secret that no one else is privy to.

Not allowed....not even. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

committed

***Mulan..I really think that your husband HAS come to view your marriage as a business partnership and is planning to fire you.
I know how weird that sounds..but this family reunion reeks of being excluded from a meeting or some such nonsense. The sort of thing that happens when an employee is being cast out.***

You may well be right. I think it's meant more as severe punishment as a last-ditch effort to force the bad employee back in line . . . but you may be right.

***It seems he has lost himself as a man..that his identity as Boss has overcome him.***

Oh, exactly. And I don't think he has any idea in the world of how to get that identity back. It's like Darth Vader trying to go back to being the innocent Anakin Skywalker again. How does anyone do that?

***Mulan is outside the circle of trust [holds up paper with big circle and Mulan a dot outside of it a la meet the parents].***

Noodle, hon . . . I ain't even on the paper. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

*** . . . I think it would probably take something really..and I mean REALLY extreme to break that facade. I don't think losing you will be enough and I'm really sorry about that. I hope I'm wrong.***

No, I think you're right on the money.

I could handle this better if he had not put my son square in the middle of this. I can't even wrap my brain around the fact that he made a plane reservation for that boy and said not one word to me about it. It's gutless and heartless all at the same time. Yes, DS is 18 years old, but who in the world would do something like this and say not one word to the boy's mother???

When was I going to find out? Were they going to lie and tell me he was somewhere else???

Funny thing -- I have not called him or sent any emails since he left. The last voice mail message I left was a quiet request that I spelled out was for My Husband - NOT the Big Boss - for My Husband not to do such a cold-blooded thing as go to a family gathering in front of my son where I am specifically not welcome and not invited.

That was it. You have to own what you want, right? Well, he can't say I didn't ask for what I wanted.

After that, I took the house phone off the hook and keep my cell phone with me for work and my kids to call. WH does not have the cell phone number. He never asked for it.

But now I am receiving angry emails saying how he got up at 5:00 a.m. in Shanghai so he could call me and how he's called several times now and is so frustrated because "he can't communicate anything to me".

That's funny because usually he cannot be bothered to call or email hardly at all - only "at the end of the day because that's all the time he has."

Very Interestink.
Mulan

Mulan,

Wow, your WH is similar to mine because WH is close to being the Big Boss at his work and his Big Big Boss loves him. WH could do no wrong in Big Big Boss' eyes.

Although we haven't been married very long, H was Big Boss in our relationship when we were dating and when we married.

H was very supportive of me while I was in law school but as soon as I graduated, H felt intimidated. H probably felt that he was no longer the Big Boss at home. I think H became WH when he saw that I was moving up in the legal world. As I started spending more time at work (and just work), he continued to stay loyal to me. While I gained more momentum at work, H started to feel neglected. WH started going out with his co-workers who drink like fish. They are also unfaithful to their spouses.

Before I knew it, WH was already in A. WH even admits that "it all happened so quickly." OW is co-worker, 8 years younger, immature, mousy, looks like a 12 yr old and is a subordinate. Looking back, I think WH was looking something completely opposite of me because he wanted to be "Big Boss" again.

What was strange was at MC, WH said that he was drawn to me because I was "ambitious, goal driven and confident." Okay, I didn't think I changed at all. I think I've kept to the same traits. Now, it's WH that has changed. He wanted to be the Big Boss again and I wasn't going to tolerate it.

WOW!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Not ALLOWED to attend a "family" function????
Say What! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Man Oh man,
I knew things were out of Whack in your situation,
but come On! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

To continue to live under this Regime must be Life Draining to say the Least.

Its Tough when staying OR leaving Both Suck.

***Its Tough when staying OR leaving Both Suck.***

Thank you for perfectly summing up my situation. That's exactly how it is.

Here are my choices:
I can give in and be forced to live as an employee, mommy and part-time girlfriend to a tyrannical Big Boss. I'll be rewarded for it. I will get to stay in the house with DS18 and I will get things like new cars and weekend dates and ooh yeah I'll be allowed to go to the
family reunion.

or

I can resist being a servant to the Big Boss and hold out for respect and equal partnership as a wife. I will be severely punished for this on a daily basis by being ignored, being made an unperson, and being ordered to stay away from family gatherings even when my own son is there.

or

I can turn my back and abandon my own family - abandon DS18 who still lives at home.

They all suck. You're right. You're sure right about that.
Mulan

"I can give in and be FORCED to live as an employee,"
Bad choice. First and formost nobody can force you to do anything you don't want to do. This really is not A proofing your M.

When I hear stuff like this it makes me think that one day the BS will meet an OP and have every reason to justify an A. It may or may not happen but you are certainly not in a situation that your EN's are being met. Why do people have A's?

"I can resist being a servant to the Big Boss" or you can "REFUSE" instead of resist.

When FWW and I talked about our "Jobs" mine was the one that brought in the money and she was a SAHM. Both jobs were equally stressful. IMHO being a SAHM is the most important job in our M because the kids are important. It however is not always the hardest job. If you mess up at home on a big project you probably won't get fired. If you miss a deadline you won't get written up. Your commute to work is pretty short. Both people are contributing equally but your job is just more important in the grand scheme of things.

Just because he is the big boss at work does not mean he is one at home. Your job your stress are real and equally important.

By letting him be the big boss you are devaluing yourself. Now if you are punished by that with silence etc what are you losing?

Well if I could chose silence and punishement from him or no self worth. I think I would chose silence. I KNOW I am worth a lot. If my S doesn't agree then so be it. I will not agree that I am not.

"I can turn my back and abandon my own family - abandon DS18 who still lives at home."

Or you can stick by your family DS18 and show her what being a strong woman can do.

DS18 is old enough to understand you are not abandoning the family. You are not abandoning your H or your M. You will be abandoning a toxic unfair relationship.

Children learn from their parents. What is DS18 learning now? It is ok for WH to run around and the woman should stay.

I am not suggesting a D here.

I would go with refuse to accept it and face what might be coming.

OWN what is yours and enforce your boundries.

Right now you are giving him no reason to live within them.

He is doing what he wants and getting away with it.

HE is not your boss he is your equal(not treating you like one). Probably because you let him treat you like that.

Choices are hard when they all suck but sometimes you have to chose the least suckiest thing.

***I would go with refuse to accept it and face what might be coming.***

That's what I've been doing.

***OWN what is yours and enforce your boundries.***

I do. And I have been severely punished for this for years.

***Right now you are giving him no reason to live within them.***

HL, I have refused to go along with this for a long time. But you know what? *I* can't give him a reason to go live within my boundaries. *He's* the only one who can do that.

My boundary is that I will not participate in his life as an employee, a girlfriend or a mommy. To date, being without me in his life has not made any difference to him.

***He is doing what he wants and getting away with it.***

Yes, he is. That's because being without me in his life is clearly NOT a consequence to him. I thought it would be. I was wrong. I have learned that he does NOT want a wife unless he can have one without being a husband - unless he can have a part-time wife while he remains Big Boss 24/7.

***HE is not your boss he is your equal(not treating you like one).***

Okay - maybe *you* can tell him that and maybe he'll listen to you. Everytime I tell him that, he gets furiously angry - but I have known for a long time now that he always gets furiously angry anytime I hit on an uncomfortable truth and/or catch him in a lie. It's very, very consistent.

***Probably because you let him treat you like that.***

HL, if you've got any suggestions, I'm listening. I have massively resisted his rotten treatment of me. He severely punishes that by ignoring me and cutting me out of life even further, all the while making it clear that he'd be glad to keep me as a part-time wife if I would just accept his role as Big Boss.

I have refused to do that at every turn. That is why I live a very lonely life and post too much on MB and will certainly be divorced within the year.

I just posted this thread in an effort to understand what the h*ll happened to the wonderful husband I used to have. It seemed to have struck a chord with several posters and for that I am grateful.

Thank you for posting to me.
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

Big Bosses will not tolerate being ignored. They DEMAND attention. Big Bosses HATE the 180 plan. Something to consider.

Big Bosses also have $$$ and exW's. Seriously, I'd get a shark of a lawyer and D his hiney before some OW jumps up preggers. But that's just me - Dru

"I have learned that he does NOT want a wife unless he can have one without being a husband - unless he can have a part-time wife while he remains Big Boss 24/7."

Good for you!!!! and I am very serious when I say that.

You have learned something from this.

I also like how you are very introspective but are owning yours.

I could tell him but he probably wouldn't listen to me or anyone else.

"HL, if you've got any suggestions, I'm listening. I have massively resisted his rotten treatment of me. He severely punishes that by ignoring me and cutting me out of life even further, all the while making it clear that he'd be glad to keep me as a part-time wife if I would just accept his role as Big Boss. "

Yes I have a suggestion. I think LA wrote this:
""Boundaries are what you do not allow others to do you without progressive enforcements"

He is crossing your boundries but for you it doesn't seem like there is progressive enforcements. Not bashing you because I did the same exact thing.

FWW kept crossing my boundries and I accepted it without enforcing my boundries in a progressive way.

Each time I acted the same. You did it again or you are doing it again.

One day my FWW crossed my boundries again and I progressed pretty darn far in my enforcement. I told her I was tired of it and I am done. Now of course I have said this before but what happened next is what may have changed it.

She said well let work it out, lets try MC.

I said I don't think it will do any good at this point. I want to think about it for a while but I think a D is a better idea.

I did a 180 not to manipulate but to give me time to think.

For the first time I think she actually saw a possibility of me not tolerating this anymore. That I wasn't a willing partner in this dance.

I honestly haven't decided to stay yet and she knows this.

I can't count the amount of times I have puffed out my chest and said "I am mad as ****** and I am not going to take it anymore" Just to let my gut out again and take it a couple more times until I did it again.

Kinda like a shampoo bottle. Rinse, lather, repeat.

So what I would say is what would be the next step in your progressive enforcement. Plan B? A divorce? A separation? Try the next step if that doesn't work keep progressing your enforcement.

When I was a kid my mom could yell at me all day everyday because it had no affect on me. Been there done that. When yelling no longer worked she had to figure out another way to punish me to get her point across.

Read my signature about insanity.

I know this. I will readily admit I have not been good at detaching (to say the very least). I know it only feeds his ego to see how very upset I get over his actions. I know perfectly well that this only reassures him that I'll hang around forever and he can do whatever he wants. Sheesh, I have told many posters here myself that this is the case and detaching is what they should do but I've been a real failure at doing this myself.

This time, though, his extremely cruel and gutless actions of planning all along to go to this family thing, and making arrangements for DS18 to go, all the while letting me walk around thinking these people were still my family and I would be going too when he had no intention of going with me - as I said, I even bought a new dress for the occasion - has finally disgusted even ME enough to take some action.

Or, maybe I should say NOT take action.

I haven't called him or emailed him since Monday. Today's Thursday. That's gotta be a record for Mulan.

Here - lemme post the two emails I got from him from China. For length and content, these are far more than I normally EVER get from him.

Email #1:
I got up at 5 am trying to get ahold of you. As you know, I have limited opportunities to call you. I now have to go get on a phone call with japan and then meetings all day.

I don't agree with you on much of this.

(Translation: I am the Big Boss and if I don't agree with you, then it should be done it My Way.)

I also do not feel you are taking the right steps to take care of yourself.

(This is a reference to "you need psychiatric help, Mulan.")

You are probably going to be upset by that statement but it is the truth.

(He is clearly hoping I'll be upset by it because that's when I start trying to call him. It didn't work this time.)

I will try to call you before I go to bed tonight.

(Did he call? Who knows? I had the house phone off the hook.)
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

************************************************
Email #2:

I have called you numerous times. The home phone is busy.

(Yes, it sure is. It's off the hook. That helps Mulan detach. She will not sit around waiting for the phone to ring when she knows it CAN'T ring.)

I have major problems with everthing that is going on here.

(Really? I don't see how that's possible. He is getting absolutely everything he wants. How could that be a problem for him? Seriously? He's getting to take DS18 to his week-long family party and is not hearing a word from me about it. Isn't that what he wants?)

I cannot communicate anything to you because you don't answer the phone when I get the chance to call.

(But I'm not supposed to mind when all I get is his voice mail at EVERY hour of the day or night.)

As an FYI. My Aunt is in intensive care for some type of heart
issue.

(Okay, let's get this straight - These people have thrown me out of their family and WH is perfectly okay with that, but now he's sending me news about one of them being ill? Am I supposed to send flowers, or what? Anybody know what the etiquette is in a situation like this?)
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

Okay -- just tell me not to call or email. Just keep telling me that. Just tell me it's okay to post useless tripe here on MB for everyone's reading amusement if it keeps me from calling or emailing him.

thanks.
Mulan