Hi HL,

Just a quick note...

My step-dad went in for by-pass surgery today, so I'll be scarce for a little bit.

He's in recovery now, and doing well, so I imagine I'll be back with a response for you soon.

Hang in there ok?

Hello again HL!

Well, it looks like 'Grandpa' is out of the woods...thank goodness!
He's not enjoying recovery one bit, but the doc's are quite pleased with his progress, so it looks like we'll start getting back into our routine around here.



Simple...because that's where your comfort zone is!
Many of us that have lived with alcoholism for long periods of time don't know how to handle the calm waters of healthy relationships. We take comfort in chaos because it's what we KNOW. When things become calm we get uncomfortable and either sabotage the calmness or seek out chaos. I quess you could call it a backwards coping mechanism.


I think this was mentioned on one of your previous threads, but have you read 'Codependant no more'? I've not read it myself, but I've heard is a teriffic book on the subject.


What do you mean by 'working on'? What sort of stratagies have you put in place to help you with this?


Have you done the EN worksheets? If you don't mind sharing...what are your needs today?


I understand this statement, however on principal I'm not sure I can agree with it's message.
I'm of the mind that we cannot change people, only influence them. It's up to the person with the unproductive/unhealthy behaviours to learn how to change on their own. Therefor making a decision to 'not allow' certain behaviors gets in the way of that learning process.
Modeling healthy behavior, and setting boundaries so as not to participate in unhealthy behavior, strikes me as more condusive to a learning enviornment. Make the right things easy...and the wrong things difficult.


Ok, but the more you work on your recovery, the healthier and less PA you become, thereby adding a more healthy component to the M. Also...as you recover, are you are not better equipped to deal with the problems you face?


Possibly...but isn't that a 'worst case' scenario? I know you're 'gun-shy' because of what's happened in the past, but what if positive change on your part led to positive change on her part?
In a codependant or alcoholic relationship, one person ACTS and the other REACTS. It's like a game of tug-of-war. One person tosses the rope, and the other picks it up and starts pulling. What if you learned to simply not pick up the rope? If you don't play the game wouldn't a potential nasty situation get diffused before it had a chance to begin?

At that point the one tossing the rope realizes that they aren't getting the negative attention they're seeking and eventually learn to seek out positive attention instead. If that positive behavior is reinforced, it becomes more the norm than the negative, bringing us right back to making the right things easy and the wrong things difficult. Less conflict leads to a more healthy enviornment and before you know it progress is made on both sides.


That's the PA talking HL. What I'm hearing here is that you don't respect your W enough to allow her the chance to learn and grow WITH you. You're recovery is not her burden...it's her chance to choose to do the same for herself. Do you really want to take away a chance for her to choose to live in a healthier way?


Keep doing what your doing...and you'll keep getting what you're getting!
Yes, change will upset the dynamic for a time, but if the eventual outcome is positive, doesn't that make the change worthwhile?


It seems to me that you already are.

If you're hesitant to move forward in your own growth and recovery for the sake of maintaining a statis-quo that obviously makes you unhappy...aren't you effectively sacrificing yourself?

Is that an example you want to model for your kids? Why not teach them to recognize unhealthy behavior and strive for the change and growth that will make it less a part of their lives instead?

I know it's a daunting prospect, and could quite possibly put your M at further risk, but what if it doesn't? What if things actually get better and healthier for everyone?

Here's a picture for you...

When your old and gray...sitting on your front porch in a rocking chair with no teeth eating nuts...
Would you rather say "Boy I wish I had!" or "Gee, I'm glad I did!"?

Banyak,

Sorry to hear about Grandpa.

I was out of town for 4 days so I almost forgot about this post when I came back.

Thanks for the updated advice.

"Simple...because that's where your comfort zone is!"

I agree and that is why I think I am in this sitch now. It is no longer my comfort zone though so I am trying to determine if the dynamic in this M will shift to my new comfort zone.

I have ordered codependant no more. I just have to find time to read it. One good thing about the meetings is maybe that will give me the time to do it.

"Modeling healthy behavior, and setting boundaries so as not to participate in unhealthy behavior, strikes me as more condusive to a learning enviornment. Make the right things easy...and the wrong things difficult."

This is where my M has some serious problems. Setting boundaries is almost impossible. I know it sounds crazy but with the current dynamic. If I set a boundry and FWW crosses it I am the bad guy. FWW doesn't seem to grasp the concept of progressive enforcement of boundries. Each time she crosses the same boundry, for lack of a better term, I get more agitated. When I do she takes offense that I would express that in any other way then to say. Please don't do that. The boundries and standards seems to be the biggest problem we have. Hers don't align very well.
I am really trying to figure this part out. Seems very hypocrytical to me. It almost feels like "Do as I say not as I do." on her part.

In regards to the PA behavior she is the PA person in our realationship.

"Possibly...but isn't that a 'worst case' scenario?" It absolutely is. I honestly have tried everything I have the energy for but it just keeps repeating itself. In almost every situation. Gets somewhat frustrating after a while.
I almost feel like, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

" Less conflict leads to a more healthy enviornment and before you know it progress is made on both sides." Yes I agree fully but so far less conflict means me keeping my mouth shut. I really can't keep my mouth shut anymore. When I express hurt she expresses anger. When I try to ask her a question about something IE a new bank account I wasn't aware was opened I am the bad guy. I knew we were planning the new account but I didn't know she went down and opened it. When I asked about it after my son told me he went down with her I asked her about it. I was agitated that I was not told about it. Not because I thought she was hiding it but because it was important enough for her to tell me. Guess what I was the bad guy. She became aggressive towards me, she became the victim. Very difficult and a lot of energy on my part.

"aren't you effectively sacrificing yourself?"

Yes I am. No doubt. That is why the next step is a difficult one to chose. Doesn't seem like a clear path out of this.

I am at the point now of just throwing in the towel. I love her but it comes to a point that if both people do not want to work toward a common goal there is no common goal.

I think the main problem is the status quo works great for my FWW. What is the impetus for change?

The status quo for me is not good. So when one person has to fight against the status quo it is very draining. I am effectively drained by this and don'e know what I have left.

I made a lot of mistakes in dealing with this. I will be the first to admit it. So if it doesn't work then I can shoulder the burden of some of this. I don't mind saying that.

I just know that I am tired of getting sucked into this anymore. I hate the conflict. I hate the standard/boundry difference in my FWW. I just would like some peace in my life.

Hi HL,

Thanks for the thoughts about Grandpa...he's doing better today, and should be allowed to go home soon.

I hope you're time away went well!

Sorry for the misunderstanding re the PA - I didn't realize you were talking about your W. Oops!

I hear what you're saying about the dynamic in your M...with sooooo many issues it's no small wonder you're exhausted.

Perhaps it's time to take some down time to recharge? I don't mean getting away or leaving, but just some time living instead of dealing with issues. Sounds to me like you really, really need a little peace.

I feel for you...honestly I do. I can remember when life here was much the same as what you're going through - there were so many days when I just didn't think I/we were going to make it.

I remember a stint in MC when we were learning about boundaries. I suppose that was easier for us than you though, as my H was working with me at the time. Our MC suggested I read a book called 'Don't Shoot the Dog'. The title made me laugh out loud..but there was some good info on behaviour mod. techniques. Believe it or not much of it was helpful when I was the one trying to set boundaries, but I don't think my husband would agree on that point.

I know it's hard when the person you're dealing with is so reactive - it's a bit of a by-product of early sobriety. My H tells me it's typical for those new in the program to have most of their emotional reactions based on one of three things...anger, fear, and ego. It sounds a bit like your W is still stuck in that phase. Maybe she'll be capable of expressing her feelings better after she has a bit more time in...I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

I'm curious...are you still working with your 180's? If you are, or when you did, was it at all helpful?

I know you're torn between quitting and hanging on...There's nothing I can say to help you decide, but please know there's support here for you regardless.

Take care HL...I'll keep good thoughts for you!

Banyak,

Thank you for your kind words. I almost cried.

"I'm curious...are you still working with your 180's? If you are, or when you did, was it at all helpful?"

I stopped the 180 because when MIL came out things got better.

FWW saw that dealing with PA behavior sucked. Now she is back at it.

I think the main problem is EN's when dealing with the 180.

My two main EN's are SF and Honesty. She has refused to deal with honesty so there goes one. As far as SF is concerned it is not filled if her needs aren't.

I realize this is why she for lack of a better term is in "control". Her main EN is communication. Followed by admiration(physical), and affection.

When in any state of our M she fills her need for communication by just talking regardless of if I want to listen or not. I can't just say shut up I am mad at you and I refuse to meet your needs because you don't fill mine. It just leads to her not filling my needs.

So there is a choice for me live in a state of conflict and not have my needs met while meeting hers or live in a state of ????? don't even know the feeling anymore and have my needs met on a surface level.

The other problem is in addition to her needs she always finds a event, that becomes a need. IE moving to NY, or NC now or plastic surgery or ...... if I don't do those things I am not filling her need. So there you go. My needs not being met hers are plus she finds something to cause turmoil.

I will tell you honestly if the kids were a little older I wouldn't be here. I know that a D doesn't solve everything but I think it would eventually bring more peace in my day to day life.

"My H tells me it's typical for those new in the program to have most of their emotional reactions based on one of three things...anger, fear, and ego"

Add that to a PA person and you have some problems. LOL

Banyak Thank you so much for the words they mean a lot.

HL,

You're welcome...I only wish there was something I could say that would help make a difference.

I can see what you're saying about EN's and the 180's...but at least it helps meet the need for less emotional strain on your end. Do you think it's time to reinstate them for a little while so you can have that emotional 'break'?

I know how hard it is to live with someone who can't or won't meet your EN's...it's a drain in so many ways.

It's odd that she keeps coming up with things to turn into EN's. The relocation ideas I do understand though...in AA those are called 'geographical cures' - kind of a 'grass is greener' ideal. Some people think that a fresh start in a new place will change or fix the problems they face. What they forget is that the problems live in their heads...and their heads move with them. I wonder if your W has considered that?

Have you ever tried to figure out the motivation behind some of the 'things' she makes into EN's? If you can get to the driving emotion behind it all maybe that need can be met without the 'thing' she's perceives as a substitute. If she can see and understand the psychology of that process she might learn to better understand her emotions. At least then you two can have some intimate converstations about feelings and perhaps a little less conflict about 'things'.

It might be too early in her recovery for a process like that, but maybe down the road it could be of help.

Honestly, I think the best thing you can do right now is focus more on yourself and the kids...and less on her. Take a little time for you every day to give yourself peace - even if it's only for a few minutes.

Try to find a way to recharge that sprirt of yours HL...you need and deserve it!

in AA those are called 'geographical cures' - kind of a 'grass is greener' ideal.

I agree completely with this. It hasn't been just since she started AA though. The grass is always greener for her somewhere else or doing something in the future. Not in the here and now. We had a 4 day weekend in Santa Barbara and she brought up the move. It hurt the here and now and how nice it was. When I get agitated she brought it up then she might put it on hold. I asked her before not to bring it up in front of the kids and she did anyway. That is what agitated me the most. So do I get angry and enforce my boundry thus ruining the day or do I just put up with it. Of course I just internalized it.

If she can see and understand the psychology of that process she might learn to better understand her emotions. At least then you two can have some intimate converstations about feelings and perhaps a little less conflict about 'things'.
As far as this goes yes I have. See before her A we went to MC because of the move to NY issue. The MC did not deliver the message she thought he would. He used the grass is greener analogy. He said she is not running to something but away from something. He strongly advised me not to move. Because even if I am the best husband in the world she may one day decide none of the things she thought would make her happy didn't so it must be me. When she didn't hear the message she wanted she decided she wasn't going anymore.

So what I have decided is to put a stop to this conversation all together. I am telling her I am not moving to NC because quite frankly we haven't even begun recovery and I don't know if this M will work.

I realized I feel this way because of her actions. If she would have been honest on D Day instead of waiting 3 years to be honest we might be a lot farther along.

I know one thing when she went to AA right after the A, if I knew then what I know now, I would probably have left her when she started drinking again.

Because of her dishonesty she was able to avoid many of the consequences of her actions but in turn it kept causing pain and hurt in me. So she is willing to trade my feelings for avoiding the consequences. I don't think this is the type of person you make a huge life changing decesion for right now.

If she has resentment for that I can deal with it.

But right now the grass is in no way, shape or form greener for me anywhere else. I at least feel safe that I have my family here for me.

I wonder sometimes if moving is her way to put me in a place where I only have her. She has always said that she has nobody here and she feels trapped. I wonder if she thinks moving will actually make me stay because I have nowhere else to go.

Hi HL,

I think you're wise in making the decision to stay where you are right now...whatever her motivations are in wanting the move. In these unstable circumstances the added stress of a move wouldn't help anyone.

If she keeps wanting to talk about it when it's inappropriate to do so maybe you could try something like this...

"I can see that this is important to you, and I would like to discuss it, however let's do it when the kids aren't with us." That way you're not saying no exactly, but you are keeping the boundary in place.

This is one of the things our MC had us do with each other. The point was to reduce conflict while working with our boundary issues. When you say no, one or the other will tend to argue for whatever it is they want, but if you use the "yes, just as soon as ..." approach both parties are getting what they want with a bit of compromise. There tends to be less to argue about this way.

Boundaries are tricky things to work with HL, but when you decide to put one in place it's terribly important to keep it there. Otherwise you just send the message that it's ok to cross them at will. Then one day you hit a point where you can't stand it anymore and blow up over it...with her wondering what the heck the problem is because she's done it so many times with no concequences.

The other benefit here is that you don't wind up internalizing a bunch of resentment - that's gotta be worth sticking to your guns don't you think?

Banyak,

"yes, just as soon as ..." approach both parties are getting what they want with a bit of compromise."

I guess I have some thinking to do then. I posted on the PA thread that I am not going to feel comfortable moving for several reasons. Leaving this state is not really a viable option now or anywhere in the near future for several reasons. Most importantly it is where my kids have grown up and I can't trust my FWW.

"Then one day you hit a point where you can't stand it anymore and blow up over it...with her wondering what the heck the problem is because she's done it so many times with no concequences."

Right and now there is a consequence of what has happened. Me not being willing to move.

Because of the EN thing I suffered the consequences if I crossed her boundries and if she crossed mine.

So you are right there have been no consequences so far.

Now when I explain my unwillingness to move it won't be looked at as a consequence but as a punishement.

I am really at a loss at this point.

I don't want a D for the kids sake. We get along somewhat fine. Most people wouldn't know how many problems we have. I refrain from arguement in front of the kids.

I almost wonder what the harm would be to stay until the kids are a little older. I figure another 5-6 years.

I don't know. At least now I can just lower my expectations and live with what I have.

How cool is that.

Just a couple of thoughts...

One way I've heard the third step interpreted is that your "will" is your "thoughts/thinking" and your "life" is your "behaviors". That can be pretty scary! Change my thinking and the way I act/behave in the world! When presented this way....all of a sudden I didn't think that 3rd step seemed to easy! "Heartmending, all you need to do is change your thinking and the way you behave." Whoa! "ALL" I have to do???? To a Higher Power that I may have wondered where in the world was S/he when my life was falling apart?? (this isn't a debate about whether God moved or I....just an example)

I have also heard a discussion about why one's Higher Power needs to be something, someone outside of one's self. One needs to get out of one's own stuck thoughts and beliefs. Thus the expression "Your best thinking is what got you here."

Also, in most self-help groups, the power is in the "group". The need to feel connected to others who stand in no judgment...have understanding...leading to "self-acceptance". Then there's the human need to "connect", to "belong". We all have it to one degree or another.

Your wife could work a great program, progress through the steps, genuinely work them. You could work hard at your "recovery". (Didn't you mention being an ACOA? If you haven't worked on the issues this brings it's highly likely you will repeat the "same" realtionship with a different face.") None of this guarantees that your marriage will get better and work. Those changes can lead to even greater incompatibility in the relationship because one or both have changed.

Ernie Larsen (sp?) has written books on what he calls "Stage II Recovery". It's where the work of "intimacy" and "autonomy" are taken on. Alcohol/drugs are a great "distancer" in a relationship....for both people! The addict's primary love is the "substance"...fills the empty places. But, it also allows the non-addict to distance themselves from another.

I used to wonder why "just stop drinking" wouldn't solve all the problems......now I know. I think the 12-Steps are a great program of personal growth for most anyone!

HL, I wasn't trying to suggest that you should consider the move at all...especially given how uncomfortable you are with that right now. I was only addressing the subject of talking about the move.

The idea is not to discuss moving in front of the kids...so when she brings it up with the kids present you can keep your boundary in place without an argument by saying: 'I can see this is something you'd really like to discuss, and I'd be more than willing to, just as soon as the kids aren't around."

It doesn't mean you are willing to move...only that you're willing to discuss the subject of the move with her.

Does that make more sense?



Again, I wasn't referring to the actual move here...just the lack of concequences for crossing the boundary of not discussing it in front of the kids.

My apologies for not being clear on my earlier post...I suppose that's what I get for being here so late at night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


You may be right given her current mindset, but really, what choice do you have? Dragging yourself and the kids from one state to another just to satisfy her need for a geographical cure does not in any way sound like a good decision to me. Maybe down the road, if and when your M is in a healthier condition it could be considered, but it just doesn't make any sense today. I know she wouldn't like that logic, but perhaps it's a point you two could agree to disagree on for the time being.



Ok, so there's you're decision! Staying together for the sake of the kids is something many of us face at one time or another. When my H and I were in early A recovery I did the same thing.

I knew that if my H and I were to divorce I wanted to be able to tell my kids that we did everything possible to make our marriage work before deciding on divorce. If I didn't at least try to work things out I wouldn't have been able to say that honestly, so I stayed.

As it turns out, we were able to recover, and I was no longer here for only the kids sake, but also because I WANTED to be here.

I honestly hope the same thing can happen for your marriage as well HL. It may mean lowering your expectations today, but not necessarily for the long term. If she continues with her 12 step work the personal growth brought on by the program may make her more able to work with you on marital issues. It isn't a guarantee, but it is possible.

If you can just hang on, and work on what you can independantly, you'll have the strength to make it through.

You're not alone HL...there's many of us here pulling for you!

Take care,
B.

"HL, I wasn't trying to suggest that you should consider the move at all...especially given how uncomfortable you are with that right now. I was only addressing the subject of talking about the move."

Oh I realized that. I have decided to discuss it with her and tell her how I will not feel comfortable for quite some time based on the health of our M. I am also not comfortable putting my life on hold any longer. Either we move forward and try to live here or quite frankly we might as well get a D. I know this doesn't sound like POJA. Heck it isn't but I have to protect myself she has proven that. So here it is.

"My apologies for not being clear on my earlier post...I suppose that's what I get for being here so late at night."

Please no apologies necessary.

It is something I am working on. The boundries thing.

See the whole EN thing has thrown me off but now I get it.

I also now realize why things have been sideways for so long.

It is nearly impossible for me to do anything when she crosses my boundries. I know this sounds stupid. But when I get angry for her crossing she gets angry back for being angry. So I fill her EN's so I can get mine filled.

I hate to say it but maybe this will be a good lesson for her. I cannot trust her not to cross my boundries so now I do not have enough trust to move.

Or maybe she will be angry for me feeling this way. Oh well.

"If you can just hang on, and work on what you can independantly, you'll have the strength to make it through"

Well that is where I am right now. I have decided to be the best at what I can every day. I am not the type of person to do things and expect to get it in return.

In my M I Have wanted things returned. That hasn't happened.

Now that it will effect her I am sure she will want to discuss things. I will wait and see.

Hey there HL,

Wow...I'm seeing a different 'tone' in this last post!

It's almost as if the decision to take some action has helped you to feel less powerless - am I reading that right?

If so, I understand where you're at. After being in a place where you are lacking trust to such an extent that you're reluctant to 'move' it can be an incredible relief to decide to act.

Trust in yourself and your decisions HL...I can see that you only have your family's best interests at heart.

She can choose to work with you, or not. Either way, it sounds like you're ready to let her be responsible for her actions while you're responsible for yours...as opposed to taking ownership of something you can't control.

Thats a big step on your part...congratulations!

In Al-Anon we call this process detatchment...with love.

It doesn't mean we care about someone any less...only that we choose not to participate in the insanity.

It tends to be a tough ideal to practice for most of us - I still struggle with it now and then, but you seem to have made a good start with it.

I'll be thinking of you, and hoping that your conversation about the move goes as well as it can. I'm also hoping that in time your W will understand that you are now, and have been doing the best you can to keep things stable for the kids while trying to protect what feelings you have left towards her and the M.

Look after yourself HL, I know it's a tough road, but I really do think your on the right track here.

Take care,
B.

Banyak,

"In Al-Anon we call this process detatchment...with love."

Funny you should say that because that is exactly how I feel. I love her but for now detachments seems appropriate.

She is going today after work to meet with her sponsor to complete step 3. Someone in a meeting the other night said that there is no such thing as staying in the same place. You are either moving forward or moving backwards.

This morning she was saying how scared she was to finish becuase step 4 made her very nervous. I didn't know what to say so I didn't say anything. She asked me what I thought and I said I think it is great you are finishing step 3.

In regards to my M and the kids she hasn't seen that yet. I don't know if she ever will. She always finds an alterior motive for my actions. Real or perceived. If they are perceived they are real to her.

I have owned mine through this and it is hard to do it some times when the other person does not take ownership until it is really to late for it to mean anything.

I have known for sometime that my wife is not an owner in this M. She wavers between renter and freeloader and I have had an owners mentality. That is why I was willing to do a lot of the things that I have. Now I need to shift to a renters mentality when it comes to really big decesions like the move. Let her know her actions have made me feel like being an owner is unsafe at this point in some of my decesions. If she cannot accept that I can say I am fine because I have laid out the consequences of her actions and she chose not to accept my boundries.

So in the day to day I am an owner but big plans I am forced to be a renter. Hopefully one day I can SEE a reason to be an owner in every aspect of my M.

Thank you for the help. Sometimes getting it out there and hearing I am not crazy helps. LOL

HL-

What happen to a hug and reassurance that she'll be fine?

How do you support her? What does she think support is? What's your idea of support? It's the little things that count and grow the best flowers!

Did you read my post the other day about H not putting my rubbing his back with me starting SF? H just thought I was being nice! LOL Can you imagine all these years the frustration I've had with this? The nights that I would give up because I didn't get a response. Such a little thing to cause a big problem? HA, I thought the problem was much worse. Can you apply that in your M?

Funny thing is: I do this all the time, why, because I think H is so smart, he knows! What do you truely know? What does she?

I'm not saying that you're not doing what you need to be doing. I'm your friend, and I just wanted to point out that what you think is the problem, may just be smaller than that.

You're a wonderful person, HL, doing a great job! What's the root of your fear in your M right now? What would it feel like to you to be an owner and not a renter?

Rinderella,

Thanks for checking in on me.

I was in the shower soaking wet so a hug was out of the question. LOL.

"How do you support her? What does she think support is? What's your idea of support?"

Depends on what I am supporting. If it is her 12 step program.

I leave work early 2 times a week. I watch the kids those nights, which includes cooking dinner, cleaning kitchen, giving baths putting to bed etc. I give her time to do her homework when she needs to. And I try not to get upset when her phone rings in the middle of something important to me when another person calls in a crisis.

I have an open ears and a closed mouth. I let her tell me all of her hopes, dreams, worries etc. She can talk about anything with me and does.

Her idea of support is all of these things and dealing with the hard things on my own.

The problems in my M really boil down to her being the renter/freeloader and me being an owner up until this point.

I read the post regarding forgiving yourself and I am doing that now. I can forgive myself for everything I have done up until this point to save my M but there comes a point where forgiving yourself becomes more difficult if you keep doing the same thing without results.

The root fear in my M right now is that she has been a renter for almost 7 years now and continues to be. Even this weekend I got upset with my son and overreacted. She told me I have not been myself.

I told her I have been a little depressed. She sounded concerned and said it is the normal process for me about this time. Her response, "Maybe we should consider a D..."
Wow.

The other one was yesterday. I was in a good mood joking around with her and the kids. I was rough housing with the boys and mom helped. She said she was going to get in the shower. I was saying hey when you gonna get in the shower. Even my YS new what I was planning, I was gonna dump some cold water on her. She said I hope you don't plan on flushing to toilet so I burn myself. I asked if she thought I would really do that and she said yes. That upset, my W thinking I would do something to harm her so I told her. She then said god why does it always have to be like this. I said like what. She said always issues we never have peace. She makes a DJ I tell her so and there is never any peace because of me. It is really the PA behavior.

So I have to be a renter now or there will come a time where I won't be able to forgive myself.

Like Banyak said it is "In Al-Anon we call this process detatchment...with love."

Hi HL,

Detatchment looks a little different to each of us, but it can be a great tool.
In my case it was about stopping myself from enabling, thus allowing my H to be responsible for his actions.

I learned to say: 'Hmmm, isn't that something!' a lot, and he learned that chaos isn't a fun mess to clean up after.

It takes time, but detatchment really does allow for some great learning on both ends when it's done well. I hope you can keep it up.

How did things go with your W's step 3 meeting? Did she discuss it any further with you? I'm not sure if it helps any, but there are many people in the program that feel the same way as your W with regards to moving onto step 4.

I think you did well when she expressed her fear to you. You didn't give her a hard time and were still able to offer some encouragement - not bad in my books!

If she keeps talking as though she's intimidated by the step you might try suggesting that she look at it from the perspective of spring cleaning a house. It's a daunting task when you think you have to get the whole house done in one weekend...but if you can break it down and tackle one room every weekend it's a much easier task to manage. And... the bonus is that at the end of all that hard work you have a clean comfortable house to enjoy.

That really is the ideal behind the step...a spring cleaning of the mind. When followed by 5, 6 & 7 (usually done all at once) it allows us to let go of our emotional baggage and start to move forward.

Usually the step looks like a list done in 3 columns. The first column shows people, places or things we have resentments with. The second lists the cause of the resentment, and the third shows what the resentment affects (things like self-esteem, security, fear, personal relationships, etc.)

I find that it isn't really writing out a step 4 that people are afraid of...but the fact that they have to share it with someone else in step 5. It's understandable that a number of us don't like that idea - especially if the 4 is an honest one. I think most of us are afraid of being judged for our previous mistakes or bad behaviour.



I know it's hard HL, but try not to worry about that behaviour much for the next while. It's just a deflection on her part. If you can, think of it as a symptom of the disease. She doesn't have the ability to understand or empathize with you, so she spins it into something she does know how to deal with. If she can perceive an alterior motive on your part, then she can place blame...thus allowing herself to be blameless, or a 'renter' instead of owning her own part in the situation.

As she continues to get treatment for her disease that particular symptom will become less of a problem.

This is where detatchment comes in handy. She may choose to place blame, but it's your choice whether or not to accept it.

Learn to say 'Hmmmm, that's an interesting thought.' Then choose to move on without engaging in the insanity that usually follows.

Banyak,

"I learned to say: 'Hmmm, isn't that something!' a lot, and he learned that chaos isn't a fun mess to clean up after."

I like that one better then what I am using. I say "how cool is that". I hope you don't mind if I borrow yours.

"It takes time, but detatchment really does allow for some great learning on both ends when it's done well. I hope you can keep it up."
I realize this but I am going to keep it up. I have realized part of the reason for my feelings is not detaching sooner. I ALLOWED her actions to hurt me. People only have the power over you that you let them have. I should have not given her that power until she proved to me that my feelings were extremely important to her and she would be careful with them.

Now if she wants the ability to hurt me she has to prove she will take care not to do it. I know it sounds stupid but everyone hurts the ones they love occasionaly but I have to know it will be occasionally and without malice or self preservation on her part.

"
I think you did well when she expressed her fear to you. You didn't give her a hard time and were still able to offer some encouragement - not bad in my books!"
THANK YOU!!! I knew I could do something right. LOL.

I realize the steps are difficult. I am proud that she is moving forward.

"This is where detatchment comes in handy. She may choose to place blame, but it's your choice whether or not to accept it.

Learn to say 'Hmmmm, that's an interesting thought.' Then choose to move on without engaging in the insanity that usually follows."

I am getting to that now. I appologized the other day and it through her for a loop. But that is part of the PA behavior. LOL.

If for nothing else I know this is good for the children. Like I said before there might be too much damage to our M to ever recover. But the boys have a sober mother and if I helped in anyway I think that makes me a better father.

Banyak thank you so much for following up with me!

Thanks HL, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your support. Like you already know, I would be so lucky! Also, I was wondering if you could provide a link or explain the whole renter/freeloader/owner.

Do you know I still havn't gotten the book that you recommended to me? I'm waiting on a refund as we speak! I'm so disappointed!

Can detactment be used in other situations and can you both explain what it is, perhaps on my thread, so I don't TJ! LOL

Thanks for your time, keep up the good work guys!

Borrow away HL!

You might want to change the wording once in a while...apparently they get annoyed when they hear the same phrase too often. My H tells me it sounds sarcastic the 10th time around. (sniff, sniff...LOL)



It doesn't sound stupid at all! Any good relationship is based on mutual trust and respect. As much as she has those expectations of you, you have every right to expect the same from her. If care for your feelings isn't something she can manage today, it's in your best interest to protect those feelings. Just be careful that you test the waters once in a while so those walls around your heart don't get so high that you can't tear them down when the time is right.



You're right...it is good for the kids. Just think of all the skills you're modeling for them. They will be so much better equipped to handle potential conflict in the future than you were when you first got married.

And BTW...it doesn't just make you a better father (although that's certainly an important point), but it makes you a better man as well.

Nice work HL!

B.



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