Thank you KaylaAndy for your insight.

....Heavy, heavy, sigh.....

Alas, it IS too late. I feel I understand Lemonman's position that he took with his WW. It takes EVERYTHING you have to swallow the pain and attempt ONE recovery. When the WS, knowing how much pain they put you thru last time, does it AGAIN, you CANNOT let it happen again.

Now, our MC sessions are DC sessions. Trying to minimize the pain our children will feel.

That's just nonsense. I know lots of men who had college girls throwing themselves at them. They didn't succumb.

What does your MC think of the fact that TM has completely rejected you sexually for 4 years and that he won't even touch you affectionately? Does she think that you can have a relationship with someone like that? If TM had a gratifying, deeply loving relationship with you, he wouldn't have cheated, even if his favorite fantasy supermodel came on to him.

I can't believe that your MC would say that most men couldn't resist. Maybe her adulterous clients -- maybe she doesn't see healthy people who don't cheat in her clientele.

arghhh!

SC,

Pre-babies, what was your relationship with TM like? Did you feel that he was committed and engaged with you?

GrownUp,
Yes, we lived the fairytale life before the children. We shared activities, traveled the world, had lots of friends, and pretty much lived like a prince and princess. We dated for a very long time before we married...almost 8 years.

My dad said on our wedding day that the biggest flaws he thought H had were personal vanity and the lack of interest in games and competitions. I did not think those things were that important to the M, since it didn't matter to me how long he spent in his bathroom, primping. I had plenty of other people to watch sports on TV with, and my family and friends all loved to play backgammon and other games, so I didn't need him for those ENs.

Guess we should have taken the EN survey long ago...we probably wouldn't have married, since we wouldn't have been able to last that long.

Another thing worth noting: Tool was dating another woman when he started seeing me. In fact, he was living with her, when he started. We were "just kids" back then, so I chalked this "infidelity" up to our youthful stupidity. I guess you could say this is some kind of karma for me, sort of like those affair marriages we've been talking about for the past few days.

Oh well. Guess it was all there, wasn't it? I just didn't see it.

I don't have a lot to say...I'm still furious with the BM's...um...TM's rationalizations @ MC and her quite obvious excusing him...but here:

((((((((((STONECOLD)))))))))))))))

Lots of us complain about MCs that are pro-divorce. This MC is so anti-divorce that she advocates staying miserable and living separate lives, for the sake of the kids.

At least I know that no one talked me into filing for divorce before I was ready.

My personal standard is this:

If at least ONE of the people is married, it IS adultery/infidelity ...

If neither are married ....it is cheating

that's the standard I use

I do NOT use the "living together" as an equivalent to marriage

Pep

I hear ya, Pep. Still, it always bothered me then, and it bothers me still. Just like an affair marriage starts on lies, ours did as well. He still talks to his ex-girlfriend, and I'll bet she's laughing her a$$ off at me now!

Well, at least I have my two beautiful children as a souvenir to keep forever.

Well, our MC session ran 2.5 hours, poor counselor. I don't think we made much progress, but MC says it is good to air all your anger. Whatever.

Seems as though WH might actually throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing, after all. Claims ~~~He~~~ doesn't want to divorce, but that it is all my fault. Can't wait til he runs that one by the kiddies.

Don't know how I'll react, but I'll think of something, I hope.

Boy, it seems so sad on this board lately. Maybe it's just me. After reading Stanley/Myrta's thread, and Low Orbit's thread, and Papaof3's threads, you kinda start to feel like it's all pretty hopeless, even when you start over.

I really wish toolman would just let me go, and have the D. He keeps saying he wants to work on the M again, and in the same breath, he goes and talks to the little girl on the phone. I tried to explain to him that he is NEVER going to be able to extricate her from his life. She's going to come looking for him during every break she gets from school. He's being so selfish, IMO, to keep me stuck in this limbo where I'm forced to either wait or spend our children's nest egg to get out.

Why can't he just man-up for all the pain he's caused, and just let this whole thing go quietly?

Why can't he let go? For the same reason that he got involved in the affair in the first place, the reason why he can't be a husband to you and the reason why he spends hours primping. Because he's selfish, shallow and defective. Maybe it wasn't apparent to you before your kids were born because of the life you two had. Or maybe parenthood caused you to grow way beyond him and he's stagnated as an egotistical 20 year old. Who knows.

Why on earth does he want to the save the marriage? If he cares so little for you that he can't bare to touch your hand? What kind of marriage is that? It really does sound like he's the ultimate control freak and he likes his comfy lifestyle and image and doesn't want to give it up. At the same time, he wants to have a girlfriend.

I hear you, SC, about how depressing it is on this board. Like you, it seems more and more to me like LM has the right idea. I wonder why so many people are killing themselves trying to get marriages to work with people who are repugnant. These people who have affairs are just plain selfish, screwed-up jerks. All this talk about fog may explain their behavior, but it really boils down to character defects.

I was talking to my good friend a while back and he confided to me that his wife had been cheating on him for 1.5 years. He was disgusted that she shows no remorse at all. Each of us said how horrible we'd feel if we betrayed our spouses -- how we'd never forgive ourselves and do anything to make amends. Then it occurred to both of us that for that very reason, we'd never cheat -- because we understand how much it'd hurt someone and therefore, we simply wouldn't do it. The personality of a person who has an affair tells you a whole lot about them. Very seldom do you see a wayward on this board with any true remorse -- there are a few, and since people are complicated, they probably are not quite the self-centered jerks that most waywards are, though they do have something seriously wrong there.

You can see by the way that you respond when Toolman starts trying to manipulate you, what the dynamics are like in your relationship. Believe me, that I understand, because I respond a lot the same way. Since he has the good of absolutely no one in mind, you have to stop letting him influence you. If the only way you can do that is going dark, than that's what you have to do. If you get sucked in to his games, you're going to end up back in the same cycle of you being depressed, angry, resentful and down on yourself for being controlled by someone who shows no respect or love for you. You two are in this sick cycle and it looks like he won't be the one to break it. You have to.

It's apparent from hearing you both talk here, that you're the one who has some introspective ability, some insight into human nature and reality and who is willing to do what's best for the good of your kids. Toolman only seems to care about his own ego and his immature desires.

I'm in the same age group as you guys and it sucks to get old and start losing your looks. I can't come to terms with it. I think that women generally have a harder time than men with aging. But I bet you anything, that as shallow and vain as Toolman is, that he will have a miserable time aging. How much to you think he'll spend on eye lifts and balding treatments (if he loses his hair) and hair dye and clothing and anything to keep himself from looking like the old man he'll be. Since he can't seem to form a meaningful relationship with a woman going through the same aging process as he is, he probably will always be looking for a young woman.

And you know, it's entirely possibly that this current young thing could be long term. There are lots of young girls who are completely into what they see as successful and smart men. Look at the all the unattractive professors and even TAs who can get in bed with really attractive students (if they're that type of person). The nerds who couldn't get a date in high school have lots of attention from girls once they are profs or successful businessmen. And this girl may be completely faithful to him and stay twittered by him. When he's 60, she'll 37, so she'll still look pretty good. All Toolman may need is adoration and sex with a thin woman.

Who knows what he's told this girl about you to generate sympathy and to maniupulate her into thinking it's ok to sleep with him. Just the things he's said to your face are pretty nasty. I think you can multiply it several times over to figure out what he's told her. She probably thinks he's a martyr. And she's young, silly and being pursued by a master manipulator.

You need a real relationship with a grown man with some depth. And Toolman appears to not care about what he does you or how his actions make you feel. He's all about justification for his whims. Can you continue living like this?

It's up to you to decide what you want. But remember what he is and how he engages you in his sick games and always tends to sabotage anything you try to do to escape.

He's such a manipulator... Turning you into the authorities on trumped up charges shows the extent of it, even though he has his Toolman "logic" to try to justify it. If he thought you were such a menace to the children, then why was he off constantly chasing after a girl half his age? He's just full of it. It appears that he has himself completely convinced that his view of reality is perfectly accurate. That makes it even a bigger worry than if he were outright lying... How do you reason with a person who has constructed their own bizarre version of reality?

Thank you, GrownUp, for the good words.

Does anyone out there know if the Harleys do counseling even if you're planning a divorce? My MC seems to be trying to make it MY fault for wanting a divorce. She seems to think I need to forgive toolman again for the sake of the children.

I say, I'm being emotionally abused with all this affair stuff, and I want out. I don't want to feel like it's my fault for making the kids come from a broken home. After all, I was willing to put up with no sex, no affection, no love, and total disrespect, but I CANNOT put up with a serial adulterer. Why is this MY fault?

Anyway, I wanted to know if the Harley's would be the type to talk to me in this situation, or do they only want to talk to people who are trying to reconcile? Thanks.

Yeah I was wondering the same thing. Good question.

Of course WH won't do it, just for me.

I think it'd be a good idea to do a couple hour session with the Harleys and tell them the whole story. If they think it's time to throw in the towel, since they try to save so many marriages, that's probably a good indication to give up.

Do you think that Toolman is capable of change? If not, do you think you can continue living in this situation?

I am sure the Harleys have quite a bit of experience with all aspects of adultery. By all means, talk to them if you are able.

Was your husband really defective before? You are the only one who can answer that question here. Was he a good man before? Because if he was, the chances are much better that he will become that man again.

I can't remember - were there other affairs besides this one? If not, these are simply false recoveries, and do not qualify him as a serial adulterer.

No one here would try and tell you how many false recoveries you ought to put up with, or how many times you ought to forgive. Your husband was blessed with one chance, anyway, that he very foolishly threw away. But if you have read the stories, you are aware that the history of even successful recoveries is very often littered with one or more false recoveries.

I don't say that to try and talk you out of drawing the line here as opposed to over there somewhere. That's all up to you. But if your husband started out as a good man, you still have options open to you, if you want them.

If you go ahead and divorce now, it should be because that's what you want, and not because you don't know what else to do.

Thanks for the advice, GrownUp and Neak. And thanks for the empathy, catgirl. I'll give them a call. Certainly, given that we've spent in excess of $20,000 on MC and IC already, I guess a few hundred more kinda pales in comparison.

Soylent Neak, this is the only affair partner I am aware of. He took six months off from her, then started again, since things between us were so miserable. When you add to that the fact that he took my kids around her, and allowed her to babysit them, and then called DCF and reported me as a bad parent, it's just too much for me, IMHO.

I suppose I could continue to play the martyr role, and let him continue his little A with the 20 year old, and say I'm doing it for the sake of the kids, but it just doesn't seem to be the way to model moral behavior for my kids. Plus, I don't want to stay married, just to continue to police him for the rest of my life. He WILL cheat again. I'd bet my life on it. He hasn't had enough repercussions and consequences to discourage him.

Forgive my ignorance, but did you ever go to Plan B?

Plan B is a massive consequence, and a dose of the reality of what he will go through living his life without you in it.

Whatever else you may choose, ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY 100% DO NOT TOLERATE HIS AFFAIR, whether for the sake of the children, or any other reason your imagination could come up with.

Plan A tolerates it for a little while, but only long enough to reconnect. Plan B, there is no tolerance, no negotiation, you make all the rules, and do only what you need and want to have a happy, affair-free life, whether he is part of that equation or not.

Whether you stay married to him or not, he needs consequences, and he needs them in a big way.

You dont need his permission or approval to get a D, you know this, right? While people have turned their marriages around after such (multiple) betrayals, it's certainly your choice on whether you want to continue, or not. This would not be a rash decision on your part. You've been here long enough, you've been through enough to make a rational decision about this. Please take care - Dru

Y? Because a Ws isn't human. Not male or female.

He speaks with a forked tongue because that what he has right now. U can call him on that when he does speak even the good stuff. I used to give mine that questionable look like....can I really believe what u r saying? Then I'd ask him just that.

L.

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