Here "I am." Thanks for all your advice. Gonna be a LONG day. And then a LONG life after that.

For those just tuning in, here are the latest updates:
After a 6 month hiatus, Toolman77, the FWH, decided to become a WH again. He chose to go back with the young lady who he initially had the A with. The OW is 21, and he is about to turn 44.

I recently found a hidden cell phone, and discovered that the little lady has moved to our town to be two hours closer to WH. Apparently, there were repeated attempts by OW to re-engage toolman, and he eventually decided to start "dating" her.

Eventually, he ended up bringing my children to Animal Kingdom and Disney with her, and going to BBQ and Beach parties with the children and OW. OW was presented to children as a friend of worthless BIL. At one point WH had a very bad afternoon, and decided to call OW to even babysit my children. His belief was that I was out on some kind of bender, when, in fact, I was at the grocery store, then home preparing dinner for the family. He, on the other hand was over at worthless BIL's house with his lover, then left her with my kids.

Two days later, he left for a resort hotel with OW, planning a three day lover's trip. I interrupted said trip by closing off access to the credit cards. He came storming home...and the rest is in what follows.

(((((((((SC)))))))))))

You're gonna be okay.

Really.

It's gonna suck eggs for awhile but you'll be okay.

- Kimmy

Thanks! You guys have been great. If there's one silver lining from all this, I'll have the support and comfort I've gotten over the past year of sharing with everyone. We all have a rollercoaster life, but sometimes the drops are more than we can handle. I know your story sucks, too. Hugs back at ya, Kimmy.

You'll be better off. I can't imagine the rejection you've been through over the last few years. It will be a big weight off your shoulders not to have to deal with that anymore.

Do you do yoga? You need something to find some calm and peace.

Have you read dad2my3boys' thread? The way he handled himself is inspirational -- he kept himself so controlled. Come here to vent, but stay cool and calm at home. Don't give him a clue that anything has changed when he calls or when he gets home. He can find out when he gets served.

A better life is in front of you. It's going to be bumpy for a while, but you'll be happy in the end. I don't think you'll be able to say the same thing about your WH. If he's dumb enough to get seriously involved with the OW, he's going to find himself in the betrayed role -- guaranteed...

Thanks! I've read part of dad2my's thread, but I'll go back again, with my "new perspective."

I just spoke to my dad (not the stepdad who is in the hospital) and he was very supportive. Stepdad is in recovery, BTW, looks like the cancer hasn't spread.

My dad was very supportive, offered to let me and the kids come over to hang out, called WH all the names in the book. It was nice to let someone else trash him.

I'm wondering about my kids. A few quick questions to DD9 have revealed that the contact with the OG has happened many times over the past few months. Just rubbing my face in it. I want to make sure they never see the OG again. How can I go about this?

I'm thinking about either:
a) the truth, tell dd9 that this little woman is daddy's mistress or
b) that this little woman is a registered sex offender, and she could get snatched if she ever sees her again, so call 911 if you ever see her again.

Other ideas? These kinda suck, because I'm not thinking straight.

How long do you have until they get back from their tryst?

Talk to your lawyer and see how fast you can get your ducks in a line. Can your WH be sucking money out of your business?

I don't know what to tell you about his GF. If you try to stop him from taking your kids around her, then you'll tip your hand.

Do you think this is the same girl as before?

Thanks grownup.
No, I've tipped my hand:
called the little woman on her cell and hung up
called the hotel room
cancelled all his credit cards
cancelled his bank card
took away all the checkbooks

He is in a big city about 3 hours away, and I tipped my hand about 3 hours ago. He may either decide to stay there, or he may decide to come home and kick my a$$. I honestly don't know.

Yes, this is the same little girl as before. Not to many girls from the town she lives in with her name and 21 years old, and friends with my h.

He better not kick your a$$.

He wouldn't try, would he?

Have you gotten ahold of your lawyer yet?

Oh, and if his car has insurance on it and is not in your name, cancel the insurance...and any other insurance....

I did that to the Wookie.

has he not tried to contact you?

As for you your computer, here is my thought. If you can get a new one do it today. Take off all the files that you need for work and put them on the new computer. Take this computer and store it somewhere, say your dad's house. That way if he has keylogger on it- he won't have anything except what you have typed today.

YES YES YES!

stonecold,

I'm so hurt and mad for you. The duplicity of this act, and your daughters involvement makes me physically ill.

Okay....so he knows you know....or will quickly know. You need witnesses chere. Don't be there alone when he comes storming back. Not just because he'll be so mad....but when you go court....you don't want him to be able to make up stuff that could affect custody. If you can't get someone to stay with you....go stay with them.

Follow your attorney's advice about legal matters....but get your the computer situation settled asap. Personally, I'd make hard copies of everything you need....locked up in a safety deposit box and back up the business stuff on a portable hard drive....and destroy the rest so he can't ever access them and use anything against you.

Thoughts about your daughter:

She's only nine....so exposure should be age appropriate...but I still believe the truth is best for children. I might say something like this:

"Baby, I know you've been spending time with XXXXX, but I'm not comfortable with that now that I know the truth. XXXX is your daddy's girlfriend and married men are not supposed have girlfriends....did you know that? His relationship with her is the main reason your daddy isn't living here anymore. I'm really mad and hurt right now....so please try to understand that I'm not going to be okay with XXX getting friendly with you. I love you and your daddy loves....this has nothing to do with you and you haven't done ANYTHING wrong...at all. This is just adult stuff that I wish I didn't need to tell you any of it...that's one of the reasons I'm so mad....but I don't like being lied to...and I'm not going to lie to you.

Oh my.... Does he have any cash? Imagine the embarrassment if he and his colleagues or he and the OG order a nice, big expensive meal with wine and coffee and dessert and he goes to pay and can't.... Maybe OG can pick up the tab? I wonder if she's old enough to have credit cards? I wonder how they're going to pay for their expensive hotel room?

Yes... your hand is tipped. Get your butt to the lawyer TODAY.

Post deleted by Pepperband

Post deleted by Pepperband

Just told DD9 about daddy friend. Thanks Starfish for the wording.

She is absolutely crushed. She's in tears, and I know it's never going to be the same again. This is the worst day of my life, and it's going to just keep getting worse. WH (I've got to come up with a more fitting nickname for him, because WH doesn't do it justice!) is headed home, I'll probably see him within the hour.

My attorney is in court, but I'm sure he'll call soon. I've exposed to my mom, my dad, his mom, my daughter9, and two close friends. WH is trying to make me out to be some kind of nut that needs to be hospitalized.

I've told him I don't want to talk about it. He is to get in here, pack his $hit, and get out. We'll see what happens. 1 hour and counting. Boy, I sure did wreck their little vacation.

I missed out on the all the chaos. So is she in danger? As for the children, let them know their dad is having adult issues and the important thing is they remain as a family and be safe. Let them know you are there for them (reassure them of your love), don't have to speak for their dad's support (that's his job), secure whatever finances you can, get a lawyer's advice if needed and if it is a domestic violence issue, call the police to make a report. At the very least if it is a domestic violence issue, make a report. RE: That is what the domestic crimes unit will instruct you t/d.

Let me share a story... I don't care if he reads it or not..... so here goes..... waaay back when my WS was in full bloom having the A, we were in a false recovery. I threw his things on the front lawn (mainly clothes). I was tired of packing and unpacking for him by this time (about attempt # 5), so I flung his shirts, suits and pants out unpacked but his briefs and t-shorts in a large garbage bag (see I was still nice - LOL!!). The WS was pizzed to say the least. He called me crazy and in his 'smarts' he got the idea to call 911. What an idiot. While he was on the phone with the 911 operator, he was trying to stop me from throwing out his stuff. That meant a scuffle was happening while he was on the phone. Pretty good evidence that he was pushing me around. Guess me telling him to 'stop pushing me' loud enough for the dispatcher to hear him (which he was doing) sent 4 sherrif deputies to our front door within 7 minutes. The arrival was just in time for them to see him shove me back into the house. They put him on the sidewalk and he got a bit abusive with them (my real H isn't like this - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> but the WS swore like a drunken sailor - a trait he learned from the OW). The other officer took me into the house and got my story. I gave it truthfully and it was more than enough to get him arrested. Since the officer's witnessed the pushing into the door (no injuries other than my pride), they filed the RO against him for 10 days and hauled him off to the local city hostel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He was there for 3 1/2 days. They lost his paperwork so he had to stay an extra day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> When he came out he was angry but he couldn't come home. He wouldn't stay with his relatives (SIL or parents) but he insisted he had nowhere to go and it was my fault.....(remember who called 911). So he talked himself into staying with the OW and that was worse than the trip to the county hostel. LOL!!! He called begging to come home after his RO was up. I'll end the story there. I just wanted to make my point about how the police view domestic violence. Don't be afraid to call. Even what may seem as minor incidents to us will be considered bad to the police.

The police are well awere how a WS can be out of character from your real spouse. Still it is enough to call 911 if anyone is threatening your safety in a physical manner. Don't exaggerate but don't harbor a WS' actions.

take care,
L.

stay calm

STONE COLD

Love the story Orchid!! And nobody is a better "witness" than the police!! If he comes raging back....you call 'em!

Can your dad be at your house when he comes?

You need another adult there as a witness, imo....and as a net in case he has some brilliant idea of bullying you or lambasting you.

Cos you know, the waywards always make it OUR fault...no matter what.

Thanks all! I'm putting fresh batteries in the ol recorder, too. Its a small town, and WH is high profile in local politics. It would be a nightmare for him if he gets hauled off by one of our 5 cops. We all know everyone here, so it's going to be a mess no matter what.

I'm still worried about DD9, and want to get her in to see a counselor asap. She's very sensitive, and this is breaking her heart.

I did like starfish said, and explained that daddy is married, and married men can't have girlfriends.

Give your dd a hug for me....

My dd just turned 10...I could cry for your girl....okay...I am crying for her.

The WS isn't worried about the shame and pressure he is bringing to his family....so don't hold back on calling in a distress call if needed. It won't be the 1st time a prominent citizen of the community gets hauled off because of a D V issue.

Now he could get his pix in the paper like that Peter Cook guy.....think that w/b better?

L.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I kinda think it wouldn't hurt to call the police right now and tell them you're a pretty worried about his reation and could they just pass in front of the house tonight a couple of times. It's not a bad thang to have on "file".

ditto what Star just said !

This is a very volatile situation. It could get ugly fast and the kids don't need to see it. I think a call to the police to be there until he gets his things out would be best for everyone in this situation. Why take a chance?

Maybe since it is summer, the kids could go visit with your Dad?

Lawyer, tomorrow 11am. Best attorney in the whole area...personal friend since I was a little girl.

Got several "lifelines" in place, in case I need em. Any minute now, he's gonna show up.

BTW, you'll think this one is funny, on his phone calls, trying to figure out what I'm doing, he says, "we have been talking about divorce, and I SAID I was gonna date other people, and so get over yourself."

I asked him where it was agreed that he would take the kids to disney with his girlfriend. Calm, deep breathing exercises.

>we have been talking about divorce, and I SAID I was gonna date other people, and so get over yourself."

How much money you wanna lay that SHE was standing right there when he said it.

It was for her benefit, not yours...he's still trying to have his cake.

[censored].

Just remember he got himself into this mess and he's got to get himself out of it. So expect the WS to start squirming and threatening more crap.

Btw it's ok if he reads this also. I let mine see my MB stuff because expose deflates the hot air out of the WS. Pretty good tool eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

haha, never thought of that, but yes, she was right there, since they are riding in the car back from miami together.

Still no sign of him. He must be trying to get his ducks in a row. Kids have been expecting him, and DD is still very upset. She wants to talk to dad about the whole thing, but he's too much of a coward to face her.

Good. You've got your little one's support. Don't hold her back. Reassure her that she can say what she needs to say to her dad.

Let her know you are there for her if she needs you.

L.

You know, with all the reading that WH did on this site, you'da thunk he'd remember fog speak.

He goes, "I can't believe you told DD9! You've destroyed her, and it's all your fault!"

All I wanted to do was throw something at him, but I didn't.

I'm exhausted. But he went back to the worthless BIL, maybe to go screw the little woman one more time before bed.

Now WH says he's going to spread all kinds of bad stuff about me, saying I beat the kids, I'm a drunk, I'm bipolar, and all kinds of lies, just to try to justify how miserable he was to go and start banging the little young thing all over again.

He is? Hm... imagine how that will sound:

Ws: My W beat my kids, is a drunk and bipolar. Isn't that horrible?

Real People: Yes that's horrible. Where are the children?

BS: With her. I left her because she is sooo bad.

Real People: Why? Weren't you the one who is having an A?

Ws: Yes but that shouldn't count?

Real People: Hm.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Let him try. Real People will see right through his babble but the stupid ones will believe the babble.

L.

Said he's going for full custody.
I'm so glad I'm meeting the lawyer tomorrow.

Post deleted by Pepperband

It sounds like it's time to handle all communication with your H through your lawyer. You guys sound like you can't be civil to each other and it's going to upset you and make him more determined to cause trouble for you.

He's spouting a bunch of garbage. Oh brother, what a jerk... Like anyone is going to take a middle-aged guy seriously who is screwing a girl that age. Don't let him get to you. You've got to get a thick skin, disengage from him and not care what he says or what he threatens. What case has HE got for custody? You'll feel better after you talk to the lawyer tomorrow, but get your paperwork together as quickly as you can to protect yourself and your kids. Change the locks, since he might slink in at night after you or the kids are asleep.

I hope you have a good conference with your lawyer tomorrow.

Thanks all!
Yep, I think it's time to limit contact and use the lawyers. I'm just sick to my stomach when I think about the way he has brought this woman into our lives, and had barbeques and beach parties, and trips to Disney with my kids and her. All the while, my worthless BIL is acting as the beard.

It stuns me to hear him say it's MY fault DD is so upset. Why did I have to tell her, he asks. Huh? You're the one whose banging the 21 year old, and then you try to incorporate her into the kids' lives, and let the OW BABYSIT my kids while you come over and pick a fight. But it's all MY fault for telling DD that OW is NOT a friend.

DD has planned a sleepover party for next monday. She's been planning it all summer, and has made party favors, games, banners, and other stuff. She started planning the party the day school got out, and now school is about to go back in, so the party has to take place this coming week. She's so worried about it. I told her we are still going to have the party.

She's worried that WH and I will get in a fight in front of her friends. I'm trying to figure out if it's best to put on a happy face for a few hours, or if I should tell WH to get lost and I'll handle the party alone. I think DD wants us both there, but that's how kids are.

BTW, what are my rights, as far as locking him out of the house? He basically left because I threatened to make his life even more miserable, but he'll be back in the morning. What are my rights? Can he grab up the kids and take them out to a hotel or something? Furthermore, can I? I didn't expect this to go down like this, so I'm not well prepared.

Thanks again, all!

Do a complete background check on the OW. If he is allowing the OW to watch your children and you can prove she is on safe, then file for custody immediately. Of course work under the advice of your lawyer but don't assume the OW is a good person. Anyone, anyone who has an A is not good while having the A.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks Orchid. I will do the search. Alas, I think her only real issue is a flawed character, and I can't call that un-safe. But I will look into it.

I will say that I'm squeamish about the future, since WH likes to take the kids to worthless BIL house to swim in the pool. Since DD9 is probably going to be openly hostile to the 21 year old, I'm guessing the young lady is gonna be hurt. I'll tell the lawyer that I'm concerned she might drown the kids or something. It's certainly a possibility for someone who has no kids of her own, and is just trying to have fun playing mommy. Gonna be a wake-up call when my kids treat her like the piece of trash she is.

BTW, I've got your number, and I'll try to call tomorrow afternoon. Kiddies are always underfoot, so it's tough right now to get on the phone to really vent. I'll sneak away sometime tomorrow I hope! Thanks again!

(((SC)))

Just wanted to tell you I'm thinking about you.

Remember, there are A LOT of people here who have a clause in the seperation agreement that OP is not allowed around the children for XX amount of time or until the D is final. Ask your lawyer about that....and maybe throw BIL in the mix as well...since his judgement is obviously so flawed.

- Kimmy

Oh...and NAME her specifically if you can.

Again, ask your lawyer.

Post deleted by Pepperband

Pep, you have a beautiful mind....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Ditto <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I did that 2! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

what's cookin' ?

Pep

I know. I keep checking back.

I wanna know what the lawyer said.

Waiting on pins and needles here SC. Flare prayers are hovering over your house!

- Kimmy

Met with the lawyer. I think it went pretty well. He said I need to look after a few assets, but most are not liquid and would require fraud for WH to get out.

I'm going to presume that WH has figured out that I'm on this board, so I can't give away too much of the details. Suffice it to say, my filing should be done by tomorrow or Monday.

WH and I are meeting tonight without the kids. It is my hope to be completely civil, despite the fact that I know I'm going to hear some really foggy talk.

I do not know how hostile WH is going to be--we haven't spoken today. I'll fill you in tonight. I'm saying it again--I'm keeping my COOL!!!!

Now, when I come back in a few hours, we'll see if I was able to keep my promise!

Thanks all, for the support!

Post deleted by Pepperband

Post deleted by Pepperband

Sorry, guys, It looks like he hacked me. Looks like he found any emails I've had with wonderings, or orchid, or anyone else. This whole thread is compromised, so please don't say anything that we don't want WH hearing. Looks like he spent the whole day going through til he found it.

I guess toolman is really quite the tool... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I am sorry.

At least he has no way of knowing what the 3 of us talked about on the phone the other day. After he goes to sleep tonight you should implement part of it.

Mr. W

Agreed.

Let's all say hello to Toolman!!! Hi Toolman!!! Hope you're having fun reading about all the pain you've caused our family.

Hope you are enjoying the pain you and K and BIL have caused our little girl and little boy.

Anyway, here's hoping this can all be ended soon.

The most ironic thing was that I sincerely believed that Toolman understood when he read Pat's links and some of the other stuff on this thread. Instead, he resumed contact with the OW, and instead of having a civilized divorce, where the children were protected, he had to go and parade his mistress in front of my children. I hope someday to help someone else with this NC thing by hearing my story. Right now, it just smarts a little too much.

Wonderings and Orchid, I apologize in advance if you receive any emails from WH. Please know that he wasn't always like this--but he has turned into some alien that I cannot recognize anymore.

Sc,

No worries. Hope he does write. Luv to chat with him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Btw, u still have our support. He will have to dig hard to make up stuff and if he does, ask if he is changing his profession to a fantasy writer.....they have a course for that on the mothership. LOL!!!

L.

Your children should be protected from exposure to Uncle Toolman too. How despicable that he would participate in the destruction of his neices and nephews marraige. If he is a God parent...relieve him of his duties and edit any estate plan documents naming him as guardian of your children should you both die, if any.

W

Unconstructive rant at Toolman removed.

I'm sorry you're going through this, stonecold.

Thank you all for such amazing posts. I honestly do not know where I would be without the support of everyone on this board. Having kept all of this a secret from family and friends, I would have gone crazy. Furthermore, because everyone on this site has been touched by infidelity (some in more ways than one), it's helpful to get all the input from knowlegeable folks. You have been-there, done-that.

Ok, this will probably take a while to get out, so I'll break it into pieces:

Good news is that it doesn't look like toolman is going to try to clean out the accounts or do any crazy $hit like that. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Of course, I didn't think there was contact again, either....

Ok.

So apparently the A started back up about 2.5 months ago, when OG MOVED to our town!!!!! Yep, even WH said when it happened, he started thinking fatal attraction, but, oh, she's such a nice young thing....

He says that he stopped bringing the kids around OG when our MC told him in a private session that the children should NEVER be exposed to this kind of stuff. Claims that the babysitting experience was just that--he called her to "baby sit" when he couldn't find anyone and really needed a break. (We had had a fight, and I stormed out, and went to...the grocery store. Apparently he thought I was going on a bender and gonna come back and beat him and the kids...like that happens all the time or something! Pretty amazing what you can convince yourself of what you're capable of when you're completely in the fog.)

Maybe he's right, but that was enough for me to piece together that the A was back on, and that he was parading the kids in front.

I'm going to write more, but it's been a long night. WH and I met for about 4 hours, first at a restaraunt, and for the final half hour in the car. I started to break down at the end, when the full tragedy of our loss started hitting me...kinda like a death in the family. So, I've probably cried more in the last half hour than I have since, well, the first discovery of the A.

I'm going to go back and check when my posts started to get more hopeless. I have a feeling, it was a couple of months ago....gee, I wonder if there is a coincidence there?

BTW, Wonderings and Orchid, WH CLAIMS he has not read your emails yet, but was trying to figure his way around the MB site to find me, and thought my emails were going to have links to my thread. He says he won't read them if I don't want him to, but I told him it really doesn't matter, since I will presume he has read them...no credibility anymore.

SC,

Sounds like you had a fairly decent discussion. Ok, so the Toolman still hasn't lost it all? Good.

Now whether he finds this post or not, doesn't matter. Your method of execution stays right on course ok?

See we already know the WS' actions. His plan is to hurt the family. Ok. So what other surprises does he have? Nothing worse. He already exposed himself by becoming a Ws. The degree which he may take it is up to him and your degree of protection is up to you.

You now have it from his mouth that the kids around the OW is the wrong thing t/d. Good. Now you can build on helping him see via his own words how the A is not good for your family. For now leave the M word out. Present your issues as coming from your family and for your family. It is much harder when a WS has to buck the family vs the BS.

Btw, if toolman wants to e-mail me....let him. It's ok. I got an Xws in my house who w/b willing to talk with him if he wanted.

Also there's a guy named Steve Harley that Toolman s/b familar with and he'd like to talk with him also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Then there's the rest of us here at MB just waiting for him to post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

See the support?

take care,

L.

>I got an Xws in my house who w/b willing to talk with him if he wanted.

Me too. Not that he'd talk online...but the WOokie has made the proper noises about helping WHs "see the light"....if anything, he can point out how bunny boilerish that move was that OW made....and WE KNOW BUNNY BOILERS now....

If'n he thinks thats the end of her psycho, he is sadly and seriously mistaken.

But...if YOU need me, to yell to, listen or whatever my addy is niosgirlatyahoodotcom.

(((SC)))

- Kimmy

Post deleted by Pepperband

Ok, new developments. WH came in and woke me this morning at 6:30: "I need to tell you something, and you're not going to be happy about it. Can I have your word that you will be reasonable?"

Me: "Huh? Yeah, ok, what is it? I think I'm wrung out from being mad."

Tool: "Well yesterday, when you took the kids to (the next town) I thought maybe you had snatched them for good. So....I called DCF."

Me: "What are you talking about?"

Him: " Well, I was worried about the children's safety, so I called an filed a report. After our talk last night, I realize that you really DO care about our family, and I was surprised when a social worker called and said she HAD to make a home visit."

Me: "You did what?" (Still rubbing the sleep out of my eyes after about 3 hours of zzzz)

Him: "Anyway, they're going to be here any minute, and need to see the kids. We don't have to wake them."

Me: "Ummmm....Ok? I guess I better brush my teeth and put on some clothes."

So the social worker shows up. Our LOCAL POLICE officer shows up (remember, I told you we are politically active in the community). I get to sit there while this stranger reads me a report that says something like this:

Toolman called us yesterday, and we couldn't see you because you had removed the children out of the county. He contends that you are diagnosed with bipolar disorder and have refused to take your medication. He also contends that you are a drunk and you have beaten the children on several occasions. He is in fear for the safety of the children, so we have been called in to investigate. May we please see the chilren and how do would you like to respond to this? I will provide officer (who knows you personally) a copy of all this for your small town record.

Since the children are sleeping, we will come back in three hours to interview them. Oh, you had plans to take the children to the beach for a special playdate with friends at that time? I GUESS we can come in about 5 hours.

See ya at 3pm. (That's about a half hour from now, BTW.) More details to follow.

BTW, Mom called, Stepdad's heart stopped last night, and went into A-Fib. They have him back to normal sinus, but now is suffering from an attack of gout, that they are not treating. He has about 7 tubes sticking out of him, and is in the midst of nicotine withdrawl from abrupt smoking cessation after 2 pack a day habit. I should be down there today, working with his healthcare team. He doesn't have a general internist, so no one is pulling everything together. If he decompensates, and I am sitting here waiting for DCF, I don't know what I'm gonna do.

He is SO going to he11.

Oh and TM (should be BM right now)...

Police and CPS don't look so favorably upon vindictive and manipulative FALSE reports.

Think you should know that.....

You are only injuring YOUR case by not controlling yourself.

SC,

WHAT?!?!?!? I am appalled. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> What an azz.

Ok, now you have a lot on your plate. I am sorry about your dad and know you need to get to be with him ASAP.

Call child services and let them know you have a family emergency in another town. Let them know you need them to review your case immediately so you can go help your mom take care of your dad's care and coordinate medical assistance ASAP.

Then let them know you find the charges false and want it to go on the record that he is WS having an affair. Name the OW and give address info if you have it. Let them know you are shocked he would make up stuff and hurt his family. Let the police know that since this turn of events, you and your children no longer feel safe with someone willing to be disruptive in your household.

Contact your lawyer ASAP.

Do you have any friends or family that can help you take care of stuff on your dad's side or even at home on the legal end? Maybe watch the children for a while?

I know you are not sitting around here. You have my number, call if you need. Ok?

take care,
L.

Post deleted by Pepperband

Post deleted by Pepperband

Added thought: Do not try to explain every charge. There will be time for that later. Concentrate on the fact that there is an A going on in his pants, your family has been subjected to harassement and now false charges are being filed against you and your family. Make sure to mention your father's critical situation so everyone can see the gravity and stupidity of his charges. WS' have no respect for any law (legal or moral) either.

L.

This guy should be drawn and quartered!

For all,

Remeber we need to give SC support but be careful what we post here. If he is a true WS, he may be stupid enough to try and use some of what we post against the BS and family. It won't stick well but he may try. Let's work on disarming the mad Toolman.

L.

Thanks all! I think they're pulling up now. I'll keep you posted. Yes, Orchid, you are right. Toolman WILL read what we are writing here, so we must be careful. Thanks again...I'll be back later.

Post deleted by Pepperband

Whew! Ok. Still got the kids (for now). Just wanted to update ya'll, but I'll post with more in a bit.

Luckily, the social worker got called away on an emergency because some newborn just tested positive for barbituates, so she decided she could only OTC one family in a night, and I guess I wasn't that unbalanced.

Honestly, I think she's starting to see the picture, so hopefully this won't follow me too long. We will see.

Yes, pep, I got all your posts. If anyone has anything confidential to tell me, how's about you bury it in another thread. You can hint to where it is, and since I know my way around MB much better than tool, I can probably find it quickly.

Heavy sigh....

At least my kiddies will be sleeping with me tonight. Suffice it to say, I think toolman has realized how serious it is to say what he did, in the days after Andrea Yeats' trail. Social workers cannot mess around when you start saying that stuff!

Time for you to put stuff in writing. Keep a log of events. Document his coming, going and babble. Date time the stuff.

You can share the written stuff or do it verbally but do it.

Also send the info to a safe place. E-mails are good since they go to the received and he can't delete what the receiver gets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If he sees this info, so what? I haven't told you anything earth shattering....unless u r a WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

What Orchid just said.

I can't tell you how helpful it's been keeping a handy dandy notebook.

Well, I'm just spent.

Just realized I haven't eaten all day. Guess I've been running on adrenaline. Now it's all starting to hit me, and I'm exhausted. Guess the adrenaline stopped pumping when DCF left.

Toolman actually "high-fived" me to say, "yea, we did it, they're not taking the kids!" Ugh.

I feel like a dirty mop that has been wrung and wrung out. Hoping sleep will overtake me, but I need to deal with the Stepdad situation, too. No one over there seems to be able to handle the situation, and I'm the most medically knowlegable and most forceful advocate he has.

Post deleted by Pepperband

Actually, the house is already clean. Remember? DCF was coming!!

BTW toolman and I didn't clean it...we have a terrific housekeeper who now may be called to talk about what she's witnessed. Thank God!!!

Toolman just took the kiddies to the 7-11 for candy, and then a trip to the park. Guess he hopes to buy their favors. No, seriously, that used to be part of our routine--toolman took the kids for treats on Friday afternoon. Yet another thing that will NEVER be the same again. Guess friday afternoons are now going to be the days that we transfer custody.

....Very....Heavy....Sigh....

So I found this post on another thread from right after WH started back with the little girl...boy was I not seeing the truth!!! I thought he was using the "controlled separation" to do some partying, but obviously thought his affair was long over.....
Hope someone else will benefit eventually from my mistakes and my current pain.


Re: Straignt from Steve Harley on SEPARATION [Re: aislinn]
#3032344 - 06/07/06 08:31 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



We went to MC yesterday (the one who gave us "should I stay or should I go?"). H was really hoping she would encourage the Controlled Separation (CS). She didn't say anything about it. H was disappointed. He brought his little book with all the forms, hoping to escape the M.

He even said afterwards, "Why did she give us this book to read, and then not pursue it?" Well, I think she gave us the book because she thought **I** was about to file for the D. She probably saw CS as the best way to slow things down.

MC came into the process a little late in the game, as we've been to many MC's and beaten the dead horse, so to speak. She seems to find our stubbornness unimaginable. That was our first MC session in about 6 months, and we both hate to bring up anything painful or difficult, lest it "rock the boat" of our already harmonious disharmony.

H still walks around with his little book, hoping I agree to the CS. He's kind of formed his own little CS, by spending many nights at his brother's house, and encouraging me to stay with my mom whenever possible. Doesn't look good, but at least he's not banging the little 21 year old anymore. Small token, I guess.

--------------------

What a day you've had. I can't believe her turned you into CPS. Does he EVER think about the consquences of his actions, or is he all about being right and getting even? Did it occur to him what it would do to your kids to be put in foster care or be questioned by a caseworker? I've heard about WS's having their heads up their butts, but this is an all new low.

I'm glad that you don't sound angry. You're probably too exhausted for it. The anger saps your energy and clouds your judgement, so keep that in mind.

I'm so sorry. Don't trust him. He cannot be trusted one tiny bit.

Try to get some rest and recharge yourself. As bad as this all is, remember that it will get better. I'm sure that he's been dragging you down for years with his negativity and his rejection of you. You'll probably find yourself feeling so much better about yourself and life in general when he's gone for good. A decade from now, you'll be settled into a happy relationship with an adult man of character and Toolman will be wrinkly and miserable and filled with angst and always looking for some young woman to make him feel worthwhile. As much pain as he's causing you, he's doing you a favor to get out. You've probably got 40 years minimum in front of you. You'll be able to spend it with someone who isn't so self-absorbed and superficial.

Argh!! Went to lie down for a few minutes with DS5, and he just started talking about his trip to animal kingdom with miss troll. On and on about how she went to ride expedition everest (he called it the big mountain with the rollercoaster that is broken at the end.). Miss (troll) is so nice!

Well, I'm going to go lay down alone for a while. I went to bed last night a soon to be divorcee, and I go to bed tonight with a record. $hit.

CS,

U gots support hugz coming out from the middle of the big blue. 4 U and your family not for the WS..... I don't hug WS'. LOL!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok, this ain't done yet.....ask him which character is giving the hi-5 vs the one that called CFS? Crazy.

File what u need to file.

take care,
L.

Stonecold,

Did Toolman know that one thing that he reported to the authorities about you wasn't true? Did he KNOWINGLY make a false report? You need to have him charged with making a false statement. Today. What he did was so low, so devious, so utterly without decency, that he needs to fully face the consequences for his actions. If that means jail time, then it was his choice. You have no idea what the long-term repercussions of this will be. You have no idea what kind of living h*ll you might have to go through from this investigation. Most importantly, you have no control over what will happen to your kids if this investigation spins out of control. Toolman did this because he is a devious little sh*t. He was probably mad that he got caught, mad that you shut down his access to the money, mad that you were going to the lawyer. So, he did his best to thwart you and put you in your place. It's all about him having control over you. He wants it all -- the money, the business, the kids, the houses and the little tramp. He didn't want you to have any control at all. He screwed up big time.

You have to completely shut down any sympathy or feeling you have for him. Nail his b*lls to the wall. He's messing with your kids now and risking their well being. If they get tied up in the social services system in investigations, who knows what will happen. You have to be a mama bear right now. It's time for him to face the music. You have to protect yourself from him. You do that by fighting him with everything you have over this DCF charge. Don't assume anything will be all right. You make sure that you are cleared in all this and that he pays for misusing a system like this for his petty revenge. Malicious and false charges should carry some hefty penalties. He put his kids at huge risk, tried to destroy you, and had the resources of the Dept spent on false allegations when there are kids in real danger that need protecting. He's a weasel. He needs to pay. You need to protect yourself.

I'm the type of person who would try to be fair in a D. But, if my H pulled what yours did, I would take everything I could. You have the control here. Use it. Keep him away from you. No dinners, no playing nice.

Is your company only owned by you two or are there investors? He's misused company funds for his wh*ring. If there other investors, they might like to know about that. They might want to take legal steps.

If Toolman has no business, no money to spend on 5 star hotels, no fancy cars, no fancy houses... I wonder how many 20 year old bimbos will want him?

I told my H about this. He was so angry. From his male perspective, he said that you need to hammer Toolman with everything you've got. Toolman's going for your jugular. Protect yourself and your kids. This is all out war. You're the one in the power position. Don't go soft on him. If you start to waiver, look at your kids and picture them in fostercare and let that guide you.

Do you still have the cell phone? Get it to your lawyer and into a safe place. Who knows what's on that? It could have all sorts of info for your divorce case, for a criminal case... who knows what he's been up to.

Be strong. Protect yourself. Call the DA about these false charges and see what can be done to clear yourself and to make sure Toolman understands the seriousness of what he did.

stonecold,

I'm still worrying about your sitatuion. You could be charged with child abuse, child endangerment... you could lose your kids. One of the worst things that can happen to an innocent parent, is to have false charges made and be sucked in the the DCF system. You have got to act fast. Toolman seems like the kind of jerk who will do anything to get even or to win, even it means destroying the lives of his own children. He really is an evil b*stard.

Please, please talk to the people you know in the police department, the DA's office and your lawyer today. You can't risk letting this thing get out of control. And EXPOSE to everyone. People need to know that when you caught your cheating, lying H banging a college student and you rightfully cut off your family and business money so he couldn't spend family resources on his girlfriend, that he maliciously made false charges to the authorities. You need everyone to know to protect yourself. He's the one who looks really bad in all this. You have to take this very seriously, because the stakes are way beyond a beach house or a business now. The stakes are as high as they get. If Toolman goes down in this mess, he created it from the very beginning. He rejected his wife over a few pounds from having HIS kids, he had the affair, he made false accusations that could land in you in jail and his kids in foster care. He needs to be stopped.

SC,

GU makes some valid points. Hope Toolman isn't that desparate but you can't assume he won't be. Better t/b safe. There are only so many things a WS can do within the law before he steps over the law and gets caught. Do not prevent him from getting caught.

Btw, the Ws' do that well all by themselves at times. Just in the nature of their beast. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'll atest to that one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid,

The damage has really already been done. The only way for Toolman to TRY to clear stonecold is to admit he broke the law and turned her in maliciously. Even then, the investigation could go forward. It's really out of his hands, even if he acts like a decent human. What are the odds he will admit he lied to try to cause her trouble and to get even? Will the authorities believe him?

We've all read about situations where innocent people have had their lives destroyed from being reported to child protective services. Florida is known for the incompetence of DCF. And I believe that once serious allegations are made against someone for abuse and neglect and endangerment, that they must follow up. Maybe stonecold will be lucky and they will drop the case. But Toolman made very serious charges.

I just want to make sure that stonecold is getting legal help to get this straightened out, so that she doesn't end up in some horrible situation with her kids in some foster home. And Toolman has shown what his character is truly like. It's one thing to be a typical, low-life cheater who tries to sneak around and lies to cover it. It's another to call your wife into the authorities to accuse her of kidnapping, beating the kids, drinking around them, and being crazy. He knew what he was doing. He even threatened her that he would spread these very lies. At this point, stonecold needs to insure that her children are protected from this man, who would rather punish their mother than keep them safe. Imagine what these kids will go through if they are interviewed and asked if their mom abuses them. This man is the lowest of the low. From his behavior, she cannot trust him and she has to take whatever steps are necessary to keep the kids safe from being taken from the home.

It's a sicker level of manipulation. It c/b showing he is getting desparate and out of control. Those in the public service arena s/b familar with those attitudes. I know the police in my area picked up on it right away. When they would not believe the then WS, he got real mad. Unfortunately for him, he took out his anger by calling the officers names....not a good thing t/d. Their tolerence level was lower than mine.

I agree she and her family s/b protected and the matter needs t/b cleared. The lower he puts himself the more there w/b to dig up. That is his job though. She needs to get to a mental, emotional, physical and financial place of safety.

Boy that ow is a real 'good' influence o that ol' boy, eh? NOT!!!!!

L.

Thank you, Orchid and Grownup, for such thoughtful advice. I'm so grateful you are still thinking about me, even when you surely have issues you need to deal with, as well.

Here's the sit:
Went down to see step dad in the hospital today. He seems a little better, but is very agravated and punchy, probably because his jerk doctor didn't tell him all the little things to expect after colon surgery. Tubes every oriface, special stockings, excruciating pain, etc.

Ok, now for me and the family. I am just vascilliating between extreme sorrow and extreme anger. I look around at everything that is about to be lost, and I'm sad. Then I think about how toolman jeopardized it all by his call to DCF, and I'm really pissed.

Toolman continues along his track that he is very sorry that the DCF call resulted in so much trouble, and he went down to the courthouse and wrote (something) on a piece of paper and handed it to the clerk. I don't think it came close to admitting a false allegation.

Sad fact is, toolman truly DOES believe I'm a terrible mother, and an unstable freak. He tells people this all the time. He's told my parents before, and he's told my friends. For him, growing up in a family was a quiet, passive agressive situation. To have someone like me who "tells it like it is" and screams and shouts at times, creates intense fear on his part. Is he in any danger? Of course not. Are the children in danger? Obviously not. But because I will stand up and say "screw-you!" when I'm being verbally abused, he calls me a non-medicated bipolar.

Problem is this: Even though I will probably win the war, there will be collateral damage to my children and me. Do I charge him with the felony? Will that help things?

Here's what I'm hoping for (and remember, toolman might be reading this): I want to file for the D this week. I want to go into mediation immmediately to hammer out the custody situation. From what I understand, custody is the most expensive and contentious part of the D in many cases. I am willing to agree to rotating or primary custody. Hopefully, toolman will agree this is the best interest of the children. If not, then I guess it's world war three.

I would like to keep our savings and investments for the children, but if custody becomes an issue, I guess that money will be going to the attorneys' children. And yes, if the custody situation does not look like it can be resolved, then I MUST pursue the false allegation charge. I will also pursue slander charges.

I think WH has a lot on his plate to think about. Hopefully some of the fog will lift and he will see all the destruction he has left behind. When he realizes the shame he has brought to our family and himself, and how he is now the laughing stock of our friends, I hope he comes up for a gulp of real air.

It really depends on what happens with DCF. If it tooks like they're going to investigate you or even charge you, then yes, of course, you show that toolman's initial charges were a false statement. If you trust the opinion of your attorney, I would see what he has to say.

You said in an earlier post (before the social worker showed up), that toolman threatened to lie to people about the same things he alleged in the police report. Did he actually say he would lie and did he use the word lie? Does he think you have actually beaten the children?

I can see that he could go off the deep end diagnosing everyone with a mental illness. I remember a post he made when you two were both on the forum where he went off on some psychobabble, long, drawn-out explanation about himself and all the drugs he's been on and everything that's wrong with him. I tried to find the post, but I couldn't get it to come up on a search.

If you are a decent mother and have never abused your kids and he truly thinks you are abusive, then maybe he's the one who's all messed up here.

I thought I remembered you posting somewhere that you nursed your kids until they were toddlers. Are you an attachment parent? If so, I think you could make a huge case that you are devoted to your kids and that you are very bonded to them and vice versa.

I hope that this all resolves without it getting ugly. I hope the DCF sees this as either a vindictive husband in a divorce or an unstable man who sees abuse where it isn't happening. What exactly did toolman say to the caseworker while she was there? Did he try to say that you were a good mother then?

Watch your back -- whether he's purposefully trying to stir up trouble or if he's so unstable that he'll make impulsive calls to the authorities accusing you of abuse, neither scenario is very good.

I hope you're getting some sleep and that things settle down for you and your kids.

GrownUp, yes, we were vigilant participants in attachment parenting. I nursed both children exclusively for months, and we made most of our friends through attachment parenting playgroups. We use the Sears books for discipline and bonding advice.

Toolman used to respect the sacrifices I made for the sake of the children, but then things started changing. I'm not sure which happened first, but after years of this, either I got depressed, or he started losing respect. Maybe both were happening at the same time.

I will be the first to own up to the many mistakes I've made, and possible flaws in my personality. Certainly, I have much to learn on this journey, and certainly, when I die, I will not have learned everything. I am doing the best I can, and I'm deeply sorry that wasn't enough for toolman.

Right now, I'm looking at all the "sunk costs" into making our children as well-adjusted as they are (all the parenting, volunteering in school, extra-curricular, long talks, and more, and I just don't want to SCREW THEM UP in the process of getting this divorce.

Certainly, things have deteriorated between toolman and I where we are no longer modeling healthy marital behavior. I have allowed myself to play the victim role, and instead of standing up for myself, I either swallow it down or lash out inappropriately. I do not want my daughter to think this is ok, and need to break the cycle. I also don't want my son to think that it's ok to disrespect your wife the way toolman has done.

I am trying to swallow my anger, and hope that we can remain civil through the proceedings. I've let toolman spend the day with the kids today, picking out surfboard for DD9 and going shopping for some other stuff, then going surfing. Now they are with me for the night. Tomorrow am, I've told toolman he can do his normal routine of making pancakes with the children, then he can clean up and go.

(I will leave the house during this, though, because I can't stomach watching him with the children, enjoying himself. This is all about THEM, not HIM. I can't just snatch their daddy away, even though, right now, I truly hate him for what he's done to us.)

GU, Is the post you were referring to?

Thank you for getting that quote FF...I can't seem to get the link working to that whole thread, but in reading it just now, I see a bunch of stuff was covered...

Toolman seemed to truly regret his A with the little woman, and if I were to tell him he would be bedding her again in a few months, I don't think he'd ever have believed me.

Here was my response to his allegations...showing just how far apart we've been on this:

Re: replies from his side [Re: Cherished]
#2875316 - 12/02/05 07:14 AM



First of all, I've NEVER been diagnosed as bi-polar in my life. Toolman and I see the same shrink, and he thinks I have the garden-variety depression. This same shrink knows how I use alcohol to self-medicate, and I've told shrink that I'm probably an alcoholic. After many sessions, he still does not categorize me as an alcoholic, and has had few concerns of prescribing meds that can impact liver function. The image that Toolman presents of me, makes me think that I must look like jabba-the-hut with stars around my head, and a bottle of whiskey in both hands.

In fact, I can and do get on the treadmill several times a week, and run/walk for 90 minutes, on a steep incline. I can bench press more than any woman I know, and leg press over 300 lbs. (My stamina and leg strength surpass Toolman's on any day.) I am a member of two health clubs, including Curves for women. Today is my 291st workout at curves in the past 3 years. I'm sorry, but most folks would define me as "active" or "very active."

Toolman doesn't acknowledge any of the headway I've made in many areas. I've completely given up my 2-3 liters of Diet Pepsi a day (Sorry Mel), and don't drink more than 5 glasses of wine a week. I work out at least 4, sometimes 5 days a week. I get my finger and toe nails professionally done, and do a very time-consuming 4 color hair process to make my naturally dark brown hair look younger and fuller, and cover those greys!

While I spend virtually no money on clothing or shoes (not very feminine I know) since I shop at Walmart for the most part, clothing has never been a big factor for Toolman. Actually, I think he's always liked that "slutty" look, but I've always resisted him on that.

With all that said, Yes, I did give up on my looks after the babies. Yes, I was sleep deprived and had serious post-partum depression. Yes, we had virtually no support with the first child, and we were clueless. Yes, I breastfed both children for over 18 months each. Yes, I spent the first two years of each of their lives with them, never taking more than an hour or two at a time to myself. I did not leave either of them (not even with Toolman) for an overnight trip until they were over two years old. Yes, I gave up a high-paying, high-profile career as soon as I was 3 months pregnant over ten years ago. This has all taken a toll. Especially painful is the knowledge that the person Toolman fell in love with was a pretty selfish, shallow person, too. Fortunately, I have grown, and see more in people than their exterior. Someday Toolman will be bald and impotent. My feelings for him would not have changed, because that was not what was important. Toolman will always see me as a drunk, lazy, crazy, fat slob, even if no one else does. That, I do not deserve, no matter how important marriage is to the children. I do not deserve an emotional death-sentence because I (temporarily?) ruined my body, career, and mental health by having two beautiful children.

Here is the link iamanotherone

I wanted to copy his response in case he ever decides to delete it.

Thanks, FF!! You are very wise.

It's funny, when I looked back at that thread, I didn't see much of a response when I categorically challenged his "bipolar" diagnosis. He must have read a paragraph in a self-help book that cemented his opinion of me, then it became, in his eyes, the truth.

I'm going to do some reading up on bipolar disorder, just to be safe, but, according to my counselor, I am NOT bipolar. Counselor specifically took me off ALL meds, and says my diagnosis is: You are married to a lout. No medicine will cure that or make it ok. This comes from the same guy who counsels WH's mom!!

Ok, I just took three different bi-polar screening tests, and was the most "agressive" I could be in my answers. One test says: "Your answers do not indicate bipolar disorder." Other one said, "You may be experiencing mild depression." Other one said, "Answers do not indicate bi-polar disorder, but please check with your physician if you are concerned."

Well, I've already checked. So my diagnosis: Toolman77 is full of chit.

God only knows what disorder this whole ordeal will give me, though.

regarding CPS ....

I've been reported twice !

#1 Our daughter told her 4th grade teacher that her brother held a knife to her throat. This, we were unaware of. We were aware our son was going to be placed into a structured group home, & we were waiting for the paperwork to be finished. Our DD's teacher called us & let us know that she was required to report. We thanked her. We knew this would help make the IEP go faster. The investigation took place, and just as we thought, things were written that make it easier for us to get our son the help he needed.

#2 (very VERY funny) This time, was several years later . Our son had returned & was living with us once again (after a year in residential treatment) ... and , he was pissed off he was not getting things his way. He was mad at us & wanted to "get even". Sooo... HE told his therapist he wanted to report US for child abuse for an incident 2 years prior when we had to physically restrain him, and we left marks on his body. (My H sat on him while we waited for the police to arrive) .... soooo

this time, the CPS social worker came in, we said, "our home is an open book" .... she interviewed each of our kids in private, and then she made her recomendation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> which was...

a referal to a class where we can be taught how to physically restrain a combative, dangerous teenager in ways that don't leave marks !!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ... our son was MAD as a hornet!

In a week, our son was sent to a different residential treatment school, out of state.

So, I've been there, done that. The social workers are VERY good at finding out if there is an actual threat or if things are simply crazy and mixed up...

don't despair

...... BTW ........ our (formally) dangerous son is now an adult EMT on his way to becoming a fireman paramedic .... don't be afraid of CPS .... be honest and forthcoming and they will see your side of things very, very easily !

Just don't lie. or appear to be hiding something ... that is the red flag they look for.

Pep

Yep, FF, that's it. That post really bothered me. And stonecold's follow up made me feel so sad. I remember reading their exchanges and thinking how horrible it was to watch them slicing each other up. TM can be verbally malicious. Smart men are the cruelest, IMO.

I really identified with them, though my H has never acted like TM. There's a whole lot in common. So, there was something that made me really hope that they would pull through.

SC, in our case, we went from best friends to completely withdrawn. Like you said, it becomes hard to even put your finger on what really started it or who started it, but once things start getting off balance, it spirals out of control and before you know it, you don't recognize your relationship and you wonder WTF happened. Somehow, we've been able to slowly piece it back together with plenty of relapses. It's so fragile after it's all gone wrong. I was hoping that you somehow rediscover your friendship and love for each other -- but there was just too much that went all wrong.

I'm sorry it's ended up at this point. TM has some serious issues.

Thanks for some very good advice from GrownUp and Pep. BTW, GrownUp, I remembered that you actually began posting because that earlier thread between me and toolman bothered you so much. I really appreciate that you took the time to jump in and ask some good questions and offer good advice.

Pep, when the social worker came, I was truly an open book. I gave her the business cards of any therapists I've ever visited (MC and IC) and signed a release so she can read my own records.

I know the records will show I am battling plenty of demons (who isn't?) but that my demons ar of the garden variety, and are not acutely harmful to my children. Of course, I worry about any long-term baggage I'll saddle my children with (who doesn't?) but I certainly don't think foster care has a better parenting model than I do.

What concerns me, Pep, is the fact that I've been considering moving into public school teaching, to get my hours more in line with the kids, and have good benefits. Now, with an open case, because florida keeps these cases open for 30 days, I cannot apply. A job for which I am very qualified is open right now, and I cannot apply because of this open investigation. All because Toolman either chose to be like your teenage son, or because he truly believes that I am mentally ill. Either way, the M is doomed, IMHO. Looking back, there it all was, in black and white. I just didn't want to read it.

Now we have come to this messy, painful, end. Ugh. Double Ugh.

So if u r ok, what is TM? Hm.... does he have disorders that need t/b checked out?

L.

Orchid--TM did a pretty good job of getting his diagnoses right in the post FF just pasted. I'd edit to add that he uses Xanax almost daily to stay calm, and has been known to double up when in very stressful situations. All that said, my true diagnosis is that toolman has lost his moral compass, and there is no med in the world to help him get that back. Very sad.

Did you call and ask?

I'd apply irregardless & let them know there is something pending, but you fully expect to be cleared because someone maliciously reported you.

Thanks Pep, but as a person who used to review lots of candidates for jobs, this is how it looks to me:

two equally qualified candidates, but candidate SC has either got some serious mental problems, or, at the very least, an unstable domestic situation. Why hire her, if one morning, her nut-bag ex decides to call the cops on her again? Sounds like more trouble than she's worth.

I'd rather wait until the investigation is closed, but even then, I'm going to have to check the box that says I've had a DCF investigation. What a mess!

Thanks again.

talk to your attorney

if WH's lies cost you a damaged reputation which cost you a job opportunity .... I donno .....

Pep

Just wanted to say I'm still here. I let toolman take the kids surfing, and have their traditional pancake breakfast together. Of course, I couldn't stand to watch, so I left and went on errands. I want to make sure I don't get into the habit of letting toolman have all the "fun stuff" with the kids, while I take them shopping and make them clean the house, etc.

I guess I'm going to have a lot to learn about being divorced, so that I don't become a doormat in my future life. I seem to naturally slide into the doormat role, so I've got to try to buck that.

Bad news on the step dad--looks like the cancer has spread. I'm waiting to hear more, but it is at least stage , maybe more.

Finally got confirmation on the little girl OW. She works at the ice cream shop up the street -- one of toolman's fave hangouts. I also did some figuring, and figured out the the OW was NOT when the A started, she was actually 20. (But it's a MATURE 20, according to toolman).

Tool claims he met with her last night to break it off (again). Lots of tears, etc. Like I give a $hit. One good thing about knowing you're going to D, you don't have to fret about NC. Couldn't care less--just keep the little $lut away from my kids.

Well, that's the latest, but certainly not the greatest.

((( hugs )))

As things progress, the Ws learns that life does not allow him to manipulate you because you learn to grow away from that crap. Sometimes we stumble across crap and in most cases, clean up and move on. When that crap enters the core of our family, it takes longer to clean up partially due to the shock it was even in our home. When it touches our children, we get enraged. During those times, the WS tries to use that as a means to show we are crazy.

Just remember my story where the then WS called 911 to tell them I was a lunatic (for throwing his clothes out on the front lawn). The reality of it all caused him to go spend a few days in the local pokie and now he has it on his recocrd. Backfired? Big time.

So just be the one constant and loving one to you and your children. The WS can't ever be as good because their minds and hearts are not family prone. Let your H kick his way out of bondage to the WS and mothership. He can. Let him.

This means you won't have to do much. As for the job sitch. Probably be wise to wait a bit. When you hit the job trail..... watch out world. There's teacher with a lot of experience ready to the kind of help students really need. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,

L.

Thanks, Orchid and Pep.

Tool and I had another "talk" today. I just can't seem to get him to take ownership for the chaos he has caused. He keeps coming back to two main themes:
(1) This wasn't his PLAN. I.e., he didn't go out and actively seek the troll. He says she called and called and just wanted to see how things were going, and then they talked, and then, somehow, over a course of several weeks, his 44 year old wenis ended up inside of her 21 year old...well, you get the picture. (I certainly do!) Even if this is true, he has to accept responsibility for resuming contact. I guess I see why this NC issue is so serious, if even long time members struggle with seemingly innocent ~contact~.

Sidebar: IMVHO, any troll who calls repeatedly, even after you say, "I'm still married, I'm still working on the M, etc." CANNOT, by definition, be considered your friend. But Tool continues to say what a nice young lady she is--I'll only agree she's young.

(2) His other main argument is that the M was seriously hurting, and we were talking about D all the time. He says my actions and inactions have seriously damaged the M, and he couldn't get past it. Ok....well, that's what D is for, right? He says he stayed M for the kids. He says he worries what kind of loser I'll bring home in some kind of drunken stupor. I say, "Well, tool, you already are living my nightmare...you've already brought my children around your worthless wh0re." Funny that he was so worried about who ~I~ would bring around, when he was already, in fact, doing exactly what he feared most in me.

But Ima, little miss troll is so nice, and the kids really enjoyed being around her. Sorry, I'm going to go puke.

SC,

Tell TM, Orchid says no girl who let's a guy see any parts of her nekked c/b a nice. Imagine if he caught his D with a 40 yr old man.....what would he do. Let him have that pix in his brain. YUCK!!!! So the OW is a tramp. That's her parents problem and w/b his if he keeps it up.

As for the M already in trouble. Well that excuse makes no sense.

So the M is in trouble, the boat is leaking and you go for a swim with a total stranger while your family is in the boat, bailing it out to save their souls? What kind of person would do that?

Oh....that's reverse babble and a good one. Play that back in his ear....Btw, do Ws' even have ears? If they do, are they cosmetic or is it really connected to their brain.....if they have a brain...is it functioning? Sooo many questions, sooo little time.

L. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

LOL Orchid--you really paint a graphic picture!

Yep, I asked WH what he thought about the idea of DD9 dating a 44 year old (eleven years from now..) and he said it disgusted him.

I asked him what he thought when he remembered how we LAUGH at all the poor old guys out there chasing these young things...

He said yeah, I know, but it wasn't like I ACTIVELY decided to have an A with a then-20 year old. WTF???

I know this is all fogbabble, but it's so durn frustrating because I know that he somehow managed to fog himself into a situation where he destroyed his family.

I just want to YELL at him, but then he'd call me crazy.

BTW, he said also that he'd agree to pretty much whatever I wanted for the D settlement...he'd meet w/my lawyer, and then after we hammered things out, he'd get a lawyer to just check over to make sure he wasn't getting screwed too much. We'll see.

Funny part was that he said he would still want some kind of agreement with me to protect his children in the event I went into a drunken spiral. He says, "What if you drink so much, and something happens with the kids in the middle of the night, and I'm not there to help?" Ok, good question.

Then, I thought about it for a while. WTF is he talking about? He's been gone banging his chickie more nights than not, since he started his own version of a separation. He comes and goes as he pleases, and never answers his cell phone. In all that time, have I ONCE been drunk or disorderly? Have I ONCE needed help in the middle of the night, only to find myself unable to do anything for my kids? Heck no!!! I've mopped up kiddie vomit, held little ones with ear aches, handled middle of the night bloody noses, and jutt general, mommy-I-can't-sleep episodes with no problem. Wanna know why? Cause I WASN'T DRUNK!!! Cause I WASN'T Bipolar. This image he has of me is completely out of touch with reality.

He even admits that he projects images of me from our early party-days 20 years ago (not married, in college, no kids) onto my life today. He also admits that compared to my early days, I'm actually much more stable than I ever was--no angry outbursts, no benders, etc. He, on the other hand, cannot get through the day without a xanax, or two. But I'm the nut-job.

I said to him, compared to when we got married, I have settled down and devoted myself to the family. When we married, you were devoted and committed to the family, and now you are out sowing your wild oats and partying late into the night and dating. Which one of us is modelling bad behavior for the kiddies?

Sorry for the rant....

No rant....this is good stuff. U r learning to recognize the babble crap coming from their mouth. Ever hand him a bottle of mouth wash so he can rinse the crap out of his mouth? Maybe vinegar might be good. LOL!!! (bleach is too dangerous to the human body but those aliens spew some toxic sutff).

I wouldn't trust that he will take care of his family line of crap. If he was, this A wouldn't be happening. So throw it back at him.

As for him NOT getting screwed? He already is screwed. Throw that one back at him also.

It's ok to go back and reiterate his words then reverse babble them back.

I used to say..... 'you know Ws, when you said (blah blah blah), I gave it some thought, wanna hear it?' Depending how he reacted, I would either give him the reverse babble line (that I had practiced) or just walk away and let him wonder. Im most cases, the WS in him is waaay to curious. So I would give him enough just to keep him on the edge.

Now it takes a keen mind t/d that so he can't accuse you of being incompetent in any way.

L.

I am truly sorry for his becoming a major "tool".

It is unexcusable behavior and the OW being around your kids? Sick.

His being w/a 21 yo? That is scary..almost jailbait. My xh married a much younger woman...only b/c she got deliberately preggers though. If my daughter dated a 44 yo man and she was 21....I'd be in jail myself...for shooting the coot for practically molesting a girl barely beyond her teens.

His behavior is horrid. He does NOT OWN HIS OWN ACTIONS...he spins and lies. He tries to blame yOU for doing something like getting drunk 20 years ago. How crazy is that? Tell Mr. Xanax that He needs to grow up and watch his back before an angry daddy blows his pecker off if he catches him with his barely-past-teens daughter.

Not smart.

And to toss away your family for getting your salad tossed.

I am sick to death of stupid choices made by waywards.

Thanks for your input, JustP...
Yep, the lack of ownership really gets to me, too. It's like, "It just sort of happened."

If I hear that one more time....


Anyway, my family thinks the little young thing will also turn up preggers. WH says, "oh she's not like that. she wants to be an engineer." Ok, well, little miss career path is scooping ice cream when she should be serving an internship somewhere. Why? Because she wanted to pursue a career as a homewrecking wh0re. Fog must be pretty thick.

Oh..remember the WS will use anything they can to make the BS look like the one who did all the damage in the M.

My xh? He tried to say that I was depressed! And that I was seriously unstable...yea right. Two months after separation I'm elected state prez of my medical society by peers...ya think they're gonna elect a loonybin? Methinks not.

But it is a way of doing WS smoke and mirrors. That is all. I say do some digging. If he tries to up you...yOU UP HIM>>.doesn't he take Xanax? Isn't he depressed? Wouldn't you call it almost a psychosis that a 44 yo man bangs a 21 year old? Young enough to be his daughter? Sick stuff if you ask me.

Four glasses of wine a week? No prob. That's not bad.
'
AGain the man is stretching and reaching.

The lowly Tool even called CPS. What a tool.

I am ashamed of the ACTIONS YOU ARE AFRAID TO OWN TOOL. HOPE YOU'RE READING THIS...I CALLED YA A TOOL TO YOUR FACE.

Tool.

Welcome to the exclusive sith lord club Toolie. You just earned your membership card!

My xh said I was unstable...and here it is...i was depressed...why? BECAUSE I LIVED WITH AN EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE MAN WHO WAS CHEATING AND LYING LIKE MAD AND MAKING MY LIFE A LIVING H3LL! that's why.

my second counselor said it was "situational deprssion brought on by living with an abusive man"...and I pulled right outta the depression after leaving him. sure did!

You're probably feeling horrid my dear because YOU'VE LIVED WITH HIS BURDEN FOR SO LONG IT'S WORN ON YOU..DON'T LET THE TOOL DEFLECT HIS TOOLISMS ONTO YOU...it can wear you down.

My xh's logic was like this: My W is crazy. She is depressed and this is why I am having an affair. She hasn't been right for some time now.

Now I will interject the TRUTH INTO IT... My W is crazy (I HAVE DRIVEN HER NUTS ALMOST...) She is depressed and this is why I am having an affair (I am having an affair with several women, lying to her, doing damaging and destructive things, and I too lied to my W and took my ds to disneyworld with monkeyho and did not tell my W...) She hasn't been right for some time now (How can you be totally normal when you've got a cruel and inhuman liar in your midst? I was trying to get him to go to MC and work on the M an I was doing all the MB'ing I could do...and he was horrible...just horrible!).

You've been only reacting to his NEGATIVE CHOICES.

Do not listen to the tool alien.

ALIENS ARE BIG WUSSY TOOLS!

Where did Toolman get his sex education from? Bubble Gum wrappers?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> So being an engineer prevents pregnancy? Better let all the GYNs and OBs know this 'medical phenonemon'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Apparently, little troll is quite a piece of work. Tool is proud to say she's wise beyond her years, having moved out of her family home at the ripe age of 15. Says it has made her much more mature than the young man who helps with our yard work, who is also 20.

IMVHO, a little girl who runs away from home at 15 is DESPERATELY seeking a father figure. Tool could have helped her---he could have mentored her, and told her where to seek help for her sense of abandonment. Instead, he helped himself...to her.

Sure, she sees it as a wonderful thing right now, but one day she will hate him for taking advantage of her in a very compromised position. Sick. Sick. Sick.

There's another piece of illogic from the mothership. So now he is advocating 15 year old girls leave home before the law says they are legal?

What kind of monster is he? Better warn the schools he is a parent by birthright but not by morals. All must be cautious when dealing with him. Even friends of the family.

RE: If I had a daughter, I would not want her near that man.

Have u thought of exposing to her parents? He is sounding like a predator.

L.

I would expose to the parents, but I think the problem started in their home. If anyone needed a little help from DCF, it was them, when she was a young teen. Real issues with daddy, I'm guessing.

Wow. Well, I guess a "normal" girl of 20 from a decent family wouldn't be banging a man his age. Do you know where she went at 15 when she left home? With a boyfriend or a grandparent or something? I wonder if he'd be so proud if your daughter were out of the house at 15. She's 9, right? Maybe you better start looking around for 32 year old guys for her now. Why don't you tell Toolman to have a look.

She probably went to go live with her grandparents, because one of her parents had an affair and they ended up divorced and screwed her all up. Toolman must admire the OG so much that he's trying to make sure his own daughter turns out just like her. Too bad that you're such a drunk and bipolar that you can't take care of your kids. Toolman is so worried about that, that he never leaves you home alone one minute with those kids. Toolman is quite the parent and role model.

How do you have S.A.D. in Florida? What a piece of work, that Toolman is.

I like Toolman's way of thinking your character matches your drunken college days. According to him, I'm a drunken lunatic too. I was still getting pretty soused when I was in the first half of my 30's when I was in grad school. I must be nuts too and way more bipolar than you, SC. You are a menace to your kids with those 5 glasses of wine a week. What a lush!

I think the little lady headed off to private school, and then on to early admission to college at 17. That's how she got so ...mature.

Guess she was busy being promiscuous in boarding school, then went on to more of the same in college. Now she's graduated to the big leagues.

Poor thing. In a way, she really is pathetic. Too bad toolman didn't pity her--he thought she was just wonderful.

gosh...reading about the lofty educational goals and recent scientific and medical discovery that SCOOPING ICE CREAM IS THE LATEST FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL....MAKES ME WANT TO HAVE FIVE GLASSES OF WINE AN HOUR!

bleech.

what an idiot.

she has "goals".

At 21, I was almost outta college...not trying to decide what I wanted to do. I had been in college for three years.

Interesting tidbit...my xh's wistress wifey...ran away from home at 17...he also took her to disneyworld.

Kinda LIKE TAKING THE KIDS TO DISNEYWORLD..in a sick twisted kinda way.

Old beyond her years? THAT IS FOGTALK FOR HIM SAYING IT IS OK THAT HE'S BANGING THE BABYSITTER. THAT HE SHOULDN'T BE VIEWED AS A HARASSER OF YOUNG WOMEN.

And this girl? Omg. She is NO ANGEL if she left home at 15.

She is trouble pure and simple. She knows what does fly...and what will cause a long term relationship. That would be deliberately getting preggers.

My xh's ow did it. Why? Our divorce wasn't going fast enough and he threatened to leave HER for me.

And let's face it...twenty's don't make really good decision makers do they? young ow in their 20's? not at all. By the time this wistress was 19, she had given birth to an outta wedlock child already. lived w/the guy and he broke up w/her...so she moved in for the kill with another guy...my then H.

I have this sick twisted image now in my mind...it's David Lee Roth, of Van Halen singing "Ice Cream Man"...I am imaginging a balding overweight middle aged man jumping around singing that song.

EWwwwwww....What a tool.

JP, you are so funny!! At least I can go to bed with a little chuckle. It's sad, but somehow comforting to know I'm not the only one to endure this nightmare. BTW, I posted on your thread, too. Sorry things have been so $hitty for you these same few days. I don't know how I'm ever gonna open up and trust another man again. And I'm really NOT a man hater. I just can't TRUST them.

OMG -- going to boarding school is leaving home? I pictured the poor thing bussing tables or selling candy door-to-door or something. Boarding school, huh?

If Toolman is so impressed by that, send him on over to the UK. We saw a sign for a school that took boarders at age 4. And we thought that was so wrong. Then... saw a school that took 3-year-old boarders. Toolman would be so impressed with the maturity of the little people, leaving home so young and all.

Why can't he just admit that he found a vulnerable 20 year old who was willing to spread it. But, got to justify it.

Well.....

In toolman's defense....

His marriage was REALLY miserable....

He hasn't had sex in more than 4 years...

His wife is a drunk who beats the children...

His wife refuses to stay on her ~meds~...

And he had a book that said it was ok to date....

You know, when he re-started his R with OW/OG, I saw all the signs, and confronted him.

"The way you're acting right now, it's just like last year when you were doing, "you know what" with "you know whom"."

He says to me today, "I didn't lie to you. I'm not having an affair, I'm JUST DATING. It's not the same."

What De-fence?!?!?
What book? The one they hand out on the mothership?

L.

Well, I think toolman ranks up there with darth.

BTW, I survived an investigation of the sexual abuse of my daughter and never had a home visit. I was honest and upfront with everyone involved. The DCS worker called to set up the home visit then said to not worry. He would close the case without it. He had everything he needed. All done by phone and email.

I editted out the stuff you didn't need.

So sorry it turned out this way.

Thanks, Cin, Orchid, and Grownup, for all your comments. A new day is dawning here, and I'm going to be swamped with little girls coming over for a slumber party. Life goes on, I suppose.

I just keep feeling overwhelming sadness. My eyes are sore, because my tear ducts have been in use so much lately. I'm not a crier, and I don't think my children have ever seen me weep. I'm trying not to let them see me now. Lots of tear streaks on my face, though.

WH is ~sad~. He misses his kids (which I believe, but that's something he should have thought about before). Now that his worthless brother has helped destroy his life, he's basically ignoring him. Sure, he's allowed to sleep over there, but worthless brother has "his own life." He needs to date all those women he picks up at bars and on the internet.

You see, worthless brother cheated on his wife and destroyed his M, then the OW cheated on him, and now he's 42, unmarried, no kids, no family, no real friends. He turned all his energy into destroying toolman's family, and now that he's got what he wanted, he wants toolman to be miserable, too. It's a sick relationship. Just when toolman needs him, he abandons him. I hope toolman appreciates what a good judge of character he is.

On to preparing for an onslaught of nine year old girls....

I sent WH digital photos of the kiddies sleeping together in my bed this morning. They looked like sweet little angels. I hope he is as heartbroken as I am.

I also sent him a photo of the kiddies playing at a local park, because I took it at the time he was calling DCF, telling them I was out abusing the kiddies. I wanted him to see just how nutso he is.

For the grammar-watchers here, yes, I realize that I ended several sentences with prepositions. I'm just not in the mood to correct them right now, sorry!!!

I can guar-UN-DAM-tee it.

Your poor kids when they figure it out.

Thanks Dealan-De-
My kids are watching lilo and stitch right now, and I always think of your sig line when they put it on.

~~~~~~heavy sigh~~~~~~

NO

here is the dynamic

right now she is blowing sunshine up HIS butt

not the other way around

NO MATTER what he SAYS ~~~> the attraction is ~~~> she looks at him as if he was the most wonderful guy on Earth

the day, the hour, the minute, the second she stops doing THAT

his infatuation of her will cease

she is nothing more than a fun-house mirror reflecting back to him a 'tool of extraordinary value'

that's it

Pep

... and furthermore

in his subconscious

he realizes

that in the not-too-distant future
when he has some age-related health issues

she will vanish

and he is subconsciously aware of this ~~~> and he wants YOU in his back pocket as a reserve to take care of him after she splits

Pep

He actually contends that she is "just a friend" and that he has no long-term designs on her at all. He continues to refute the term "lover" or "affair" in favor of "date".

But I'm the crazy one!

Here's a tip

REFUSE

flat out REFUSE

to have any discussion about OW

just walk away

you will not find this easy to do ... but do it anyway

discussing OW is akin to discussing toe fungus ... very distasteful

Pep

And like toe fungus,,,,,,,


OW is very hard to remove,,,,,


And will leave nasty looking scars because she remained too long, and went too deep.

Thanks Pep!

I don't bang my friends.

I used to....

But that was back in college,

before I was MARRIED.


Now I bang my head against the wall.

Let's refer to OW as TF for short

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

I like it! Should we start calling Tool: Toe? At least it's shorter.

Actually, I was thinking that "FOOLman" is a better name for him!!

Nah. Toolman is just fine.

He IS being a tool...I told my girlfriend her wh was being one recently....a tool like a toilet plunger or toilet snake...not a cool tool like a table saw or a router...

- Kimmy

Sad to say, toolman read this thread and thinks we're all nutz. He says you make no effort to see both sides and give radical advice. He says you are acting like this is a video game. He says anything he says will be called Fog/Babble. Funny, he used to understand the principles, but I guess no more.

toeman

How amusing....since MY marriage was saved.....utilizing this video game's radical advice.

And MY wh did/said everything the Toeman is doing and saying....right down to all the froggy things he did/said with OW...and the OW predictably got preggers...twice.

But I don't know squat about it...nah...haven't btdt at all.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Oh, and I've listened to the other side of it. Took it into account...then threw it out with the rest of the garbage.

I was thinking Stoolman...

self-explainatory.

krk

Stonecold,

I am sorry to see you endure this difficult sitch, I hope it gets better soon. My dad was accused of child abuse by an unstable teenage boy that had a thing for my younger sister. A councelor called her to the office in HS and had to look at her back as this kid said she was beaten with a belt. Of course there wasn't anything there, we weren't beaten. My dad was devasted by having to go through this. My younger sister was the baby, apple of his eye and he would never, ever, do this. This kid stalked her and played hang-up phone games (before caller ID). Sad thing was, this teenager was really messed up, came from a messed up family. My younger sister was probably nice to him in passing and he attached himself to her. Anyway, if I remember correctly, the charges still remain there, even if they are false.

I would consider this as seriously as you can. I would suggest you consider Plan B for you and your kid's sake. I wouldn't send him any pictures or answer his calls. Anything you say to him could be twisted against you. I would suggest you consider yourself and your family under attack. This means, he should not come over and make pancakes, even if the kids like him to, because that is your home and he is no longer welcome. I don't mean you have to say horrible things to him, fight and argue as if it were a war, but be on the defensive and protect yourself and the kids, that is your no. 1 priority, not their relationship with their dad. Make sure your relationship with them will be sustained, let him worry about his own relationship with them.

I see that you left when he came over, which is good, but you might want to consider having them p.u. and dropped off at at third party's house. It must be that you care about him on some level, but it is an abusive situation that you are in IMHO.

I hope and pray it all works out for your kids and your best interest.

Thanks for the advice, NabOhio, I am probably making a huge mistake. Sort of like I didn't kick him out on the first affair, I wanted to give him a chance to prove himself. Now, I'm giving him one chance to prove he truly means what he says about wanting what's best for the kids. If he screws me on this, I will feel stupid, but he will have shown that he is morally bankrupt on all levels. Not sure which is better.

Orchid: So from his POV, what should a MM NOT do?


Orchid: No not 'anything', we can tell the difference between truth and 'fog babble'. Didn't he learn that before?

Toolman, u disappoint me. You choose to lose what smarts you had for what? To justify a failure? Is that A so precious to you that you are willing to give up all for a moment of loose pants?

Listen that OW and any OW will get old fast. Even OM's (if you swing that way) will get old. Know Y? Because the thrill of the A and the sex ain't all it is cut up t/b. It isn't worth an ounce of what your family is worth. In fact, your family's daily trash is more valuable than the height of any A.

Fog babble? Go tape your convos and see what you call the stuff spewing out of your mouth. Go ahead...... see if you can stomach hearing what u r babbling. I doubt it. If you like the taste of the A vomit, then that is what you should eat but don't give that crap to your family. You s/b willing to eat A vomit and give your family a nice home with good food and security.

Don't forget to lick the plate. OW dishes up that A vomit for EVERY meal.

L.

Just another hour and a half, and I'll have survived a 9-year old girls' sleepover party!!! Then I can get down to business, start moving things in the D direction.

I told Tool we need to start working up the division of assets, but he keeps saying we need to deal with the emotional side, first. I say the emotional side will take years to figure out, let's just be done with this disrespecting BS, and end my worrying about this DCF allegation. Otherwise, I HAVE to pursue the frivolous allegation, which will result in a felony against my children's father. I'd like to avoid that, but I will do what I have to do.

I'll keep you updated.

Just more of the same ol' $hit. Toolman scheduled an appt for me to meet with the MC by myself (I guess to talk thru my anger and bipolar issues) and then went and scheduled an appt for him to meet with a lawyer in the hour just before. He PROMISED he'd be home. He's not.

Ok, after an abbreviated MC appt, here's what I've got. Tool told MC he is "sorry" for what happened (again).

What does that mean to me? It means that Tool is SORRY for getting CAUGHT. He was having the time of his life with little chickadee, and I had to go and RUIN it by cancelling the credit cards.

Told Tool I was gonna hold the checkbooks until I was sure he wasn't clearing out any accounts, and he acted indignant. Why can't you trust me? He asks.

Ugh. He just blew $225 on a consult with a lawyer, and I'm supposed to ~trust~ him. He just blew our marriage, and family $$ on the little tramp, and I'm supposed to ~trust~ him. (I'm getting tired of saying ugh. Someone help me out here.)

[color:"red"] UGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! [/color] [color:"green"] BLECHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! [/color] [color:"blue"]BLLLLEEEEEEEAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/color]

Is that better? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Neak, given your status as a professional writer, I defer to your expert opinion!

A lot of criminals are real sorry they went to jail.

Bwaaaaaa!!!

That's why I didn't even have to run 'ugh' through the thesaurus to come up with synonyms.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MC says there aren't many men in their 40's who could resist a PYT throwing her PYT in their face. Says many married men would do the same thing tool did. Says that doesn't make it right, but....


She'll do anything to keep us together, IMO. Kinda like a doctor not wanting a mortality on his record.

Yes, but will toolman do anything to keep you together?

It's kind of out of the therapist's hands at this point. At some point, she just has to accept that TM had a death wish - and this mortality was not of her making/choosing, etc - unless she keeps up with the crap that 20 year old nymphos are irresistable. To real men those girls are girls - not women - not attractive in the sense that a real man wants! A real man wants a real woman!

I think the therapist cuts him a bit too much slack - and like an enabling mother has a wayward son on her hands as a result! At some point the "wrongness" of it all should make him feel incestuous - if he was a real man...

Thank you KaylaAndy for your insight.

....Heavy, heavy, sigh.....

Alas, it IS too late. I feel I understand Lemonman's position that he took with his WW. It takes EVERYTHING you have to swallow the pain and attempt ONE recovery. When the WS, knowing how much pain they put you thru last time, does it AGAIN, you CANNOT let it happen again.

Now, our MC sessions are DC sessions. Trying to minimize the pain our children will feel.

That's just nonsense. I know lots of men who had college girls throwing themselves at them. They didn't succumb.

What does your MC think of the fact that TM has completely rejected you sexually for 4 years and that he won't even touch you affectionately? Does she think that you can have a relationship with someone like that? If TM had a gratifying, deeply loving relationship with you, he wouldn't have cheated, even if his favorite fantasy supermodel came on to him.

I can't believe that your MC would say that most men couldn't resist. Maybe her adulterous clients -- maybe she doesn't see healthy people who don't cheat in her clientele.

arghhh!

SC,

Pre-babies, what was your relationship with TM like? Did you feel that he was committed and engaged with you?

GrownUp,
Yes, we lived the fairytale life before the children. We shared activities, traveled the world, had lots of friends, and pretty much lived like a prince and princess. We dated for a very long time before we married...almost 8 years.

My dad said on our wedding day that the biggest flaws he thought H had were personal vanity and the lack of interest in games and competitions. I did not think those things were that important to the M, since it didn't matter to me how long he spent in his bathroom, primping. I had plenty of other people to watch sports on TV with, and my family and friends all loved to play backgammon and other games, so I didn't need him for those ENs.

Guess we should have taken the EN survey long ago...we probably wouldn't have married, since we wouldn't have been able to last that long.

Another thing worth noting: Tool was dating another woman when he started seeing me. In fact, he was living with her, when he started. We were "just kids" back then, so I chalked this "infidelity" up to our youthful stupidity. I guess you could say this is some kind of karma for me, sort of like those affair marriages we've been talking about for the past few days.

Oh well. Guess it was all there, wasn't it? I just didn't see it.

I don't have a lot to say...I'm still furious with the BM's...um...TM's rationalizations @ MC and her quite obvious excusing him...but here:

((((((((((STONECOLD)))))))))))))))

Lots of us complain about MCs that are pro-divorce. This MC is so anti-divorce that she advocates staying miserable and living separate lives, for the sake of the kids.

At least I know that no one talked me into filing for divorce before I was ready.

My personal standard is this:

If at least ONE of the people is married, it IS adultery/infidelity ...

If neither are married ....it is cheating

that's the standard I use

I do NOT use the "living together" as an equivalent to marriage

Pep

I hear ya, Pep. Still, it always bothered me then, and it bothers me still. Just like an affair marriage starts on lies, ours did as well. He still talks to his ex-girlfriend, and I'll bet she's laughing her a$$ off at me now!

Well, at least I have my two beautiful children as a souvenir to keep forever.

Well, our MC session ran 2.5 hours, poor counselor. I don't think we made much progress, but MC says it is good to air all your anger. Whatever.

Seems as though WH might actually throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing, after all. Claims ~~~He~~~ doesn't want to divorce, but that it is all my fault. Can't wait til he runs that one by the kiddies.

Don't know how I'll react, but I'll think of something, I hope.

Boy, it seems so sad on this board lately. Maybe it's just me. After reading Stanley/Myrta's thread, and Low Orbit's thread, and Papaof3's threads, you kinda start to feel like it's all pretty hopeless, even when you start over.

I really wish toolman would just let me go, and have the D. He keeps saying he wants to work on the M again, and in the same breath, he goes and talks to the little girl on the phone. I tried to explain to him that he is NEVER going to be able to extricate her from his life. She's going to come looking for him during every break she gets from school. He's being so selfish, IMO, to keep me stuck in this limbo where I'm forced to either wait or spend our children's nest egg to get out.

Why can't he just man-up for all the pain he's caused, and just let this whole thing go quietly?

Why can't he let go? For the same reason that he got involved in the affair in the first place, the reason why he can't be a husband to you and the reason why he spends hours primping. Because he's selfish, shallow and defective. Maybe it wasn't apparent to you before your kids were born because of the life you two had. Or maybe parenthood caused you to grow way beyond him and he's stagnated as an egotistical 20 year old. Who knows.

Why on earth does he want to the save the marriage? If he cares so little for you that he can't bare to touch your hand? What kind of marriage is that? It really does sound like he's the ultimate control freak and he likes his comfy lifestyle and image and doesn't want to give it up. At the same time, he wants to have a girlfriend.

I hear you, SC, about how depressing it is on this board. Like you, it seems more and more to me like LM has the right idea. I wonder why so many people are killing themselves trying to get marriages to work with people who are repugnant. These people who have affairs are just plain selfish, screwed-up jerks. All this talk about fog may explain their behavior, but it really boils down to character defects.

I was talking to my good friend a while back and he confided to me that his wife had been cheating on him for 1.5 years. He was disgusted that she shows no remorse at all. Each of us said how horrible we'd feel if we betrayed our spouses -- how we'd never forgive ourselves and do anything to make amends. Then it occurred to both of us that for that very reason, we'd never cheat -- because we understand how much it'd hurt someone and therefore, we simply wouldn't do it. The personality of a person who has an affair tells you a whole lot about them. Very seldom do you see a wayward on this board with any true remorse -- there are a few, and since people are complicated, they probably are not quite the self-centered jerks that most waywards are, though they do have something seriously wrong there.

You can see by the way that you respond when Toolman starts trying to manipulate you, what the dynamics are like in your relationship. Believe me, that I understand, because I respond a lot the same way. Since he has the good of absolutely no one in mind, you have to stop letting him influence you. If the only way you can do that is going dark, than that's what you have to do. If you get sucked in to his games, you're going to end up back in the same cycle of you being depressed, angry, resentful and down on yourself for being controlled by someone who shows no respect or love for you. You two are in this sick cycle and it looks like he won't be the one to break it. You have to.

It's apparent from hearing you both talk here, that you're the one who has some introspective ability, some insight into human nature and reality and who is willing to do what's best for the good of your kids. Toolman only seems to care about his own ego and his immature desires.

I'm in the same age group as you guys and it sucks to get old and start losing your looks. I can't come to terms with it. I think that women generally have a harder time than men with aging. But I bet you anything, that as shallow and vain as Toolman is, that he will have a miserable time aging. How much to you think he'll spend on eye lifts and balding treatments (if he loses his hair) and hair dye and clothing and anything to keep himself from looking like the old man he'll be. Since he can't seem to form a meaningful relationship with a woman going through the same aging process as he is, he probably will always be looking for a young woman.

And you know, it's entirely possibly that this current young thing could be long term. There are lots of young girls who are completely into what they see as successful and smart men. Look at the all the unattractive professors and even TAs who can get in bed with really attractive students (if they're that type of person). The nerds who couldn't get a date in high school have lots of attention from girls once they are profs or successful businessmen. And this girl may be completely faithful to him and stay twittered by him. When he's 60, she'll 37, so she'll still look pretty good. All Toolman may need is adoration and sex with a thin woman.

Who knows what he's told this girl about you to generate sympathy and to maniupulate her into thinking it's ok to sleep with him. Just the things he's said to your face are pretty nasty. I think you can multiply it several times over to figure out what he's told her. She probably thinks he's a martyr. And she's young, silly and being pursued by a master manipulator.

You need a real relationship with a grown man with some depth. And Toolman appears to not care about what he does you or how his actions make you feel. He's all about justification for his whims. Can you continue living like this?

It's up to you to decide what you want. But remember what he is and how he engages you in his sick games and always tends to sabotage anything you try to do to escape.

He's such a manipulator... Turning you into the authorities on trumped up charges shows the extent of it, even though he has his Toolman "logic" to try to justify it. If he thought you were such a menace to the children, then why was he off constantly chasing after a girl half his age? He's just full of it. It appears that he has himself completely convinced that his view of reality is perfectly accurate. That makes it even a bigger worry than if he were outright lying... How do you reason with a person who has constructed their own bizarre version of reality?

Thank you, GrownUp, for the good words.

Does anyone out there know if the Harleys do counseling even if you're planning a divorce? My MC seems to be trying to make it MY fault for wanting a divorce. She seems to think I need to forgive toolman again for the sake of the children.

I say, I'm being emotionally abused with all this affair stuff, and I want out. I don't want to feel like it's my fault for making the kids come from a broken home. After all, I was willing to put up with no sex, no affection, no love, and total disrespect, but I CANNOT put up with a serial adulterer. Why is this MY fault?

Anyway, I wanted to know if the Harley's would be the type to talk to me in this situation, or do they only want to talk to people who are trying to reconcile? Thanks.

Yeah I was wondering the same thing. Good question.

Of course WH won't do it, just for me.

I think it'd be a good idea to do a couple hour session with the Harleys and tell them the whole story. If they think it's time to throw in the towel, since they try to save so many marriages, that's probably a good indication to give up.

Do you think that Toolman is capable of change? If not, do you think you can continue living in this situation?

I am sure the Harleys have quite a bit of experience with all aspects of adultery. By all means, talk to them if you are able.

Was your husband really defective before? You are the only one who can answer that question here. Was he a good man before? Because if he was, the chances are much better that he will become that man again.

I can't remember - were there other affairs besides this one? If not, these are simply false recoveries, and do not qualify him as a serial adulterer.

No one here would try and tell you how many false recoveries you ought to put up with, or how many times you ought to forgive. Your husband was blessed with one chance, anyway, that he very foolishly threw away. But if you have read the stories, you are aware that the history of even successful recoveries is very often littered with one or more false recoveries.

I don't say that to try and talk you out of drawing the line here as opposed to over there somewhere. That's all up to you. But if your husband started out as a good man, you still have options open to you, if you want them.

If you go ahead and divorce now, it should be because that's what you want, and not because you don't know what else to do.

Thanks for the advice, GrownUp and Neak. And thanks for the empathy, catgirl. I'll give them a call. Certainly, given that we've spent in excess of $20,000 on MC and IC already, I guess a few hundred more kinda pales in comparison.

Soylent Neak, this is the only affair partner I am aware of. He took six months off from her, then started again, since things between us were so miserable. When you add to that the fact that he took my kids around her, and allowed her to babysit them, and then called DCF and reported me as a bad parent, it's just too much for me, IMHO.

I suppose I could continue to play the martyr role, and let him continue his little A with the 20 year old, and say I'm doing it for the sake of the kids, but it just doesn't seem to be the way to model moral behavior for my kids. Plus, I don't want to stay married, just to continue to police him for the rest of my life. He WILL cheat again. I'd bet my life on it. He hasn't had enough repercussions and consequences to discourage him.

Forgive my ignorance, but did you ever go to Plan B?

Plan B is a massive consequence, and a dose of the reality of what he will go through living his life without you in it.

Whatever else you may choose, ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY 100% DO NOT TOLERATE HIS AFFAIR, whether for the sake of the children, or any other reason your imagination could come up with.

Plan A tolerates it for a little while, but only long enough to reconnect. Plan B, there is no tolerance, no negotiation, you make all the rules, and do only what you need and want to have a happy, affair-free life, whether he is part of that equation or not.

Whether you stay married to him or not, he needs consequences, and he needs them in a big way.

You dont need his permission or approval to get a D, you know this, right? While people have turned their marriages around after such (multiple) betrayals, it's certainly your choice on whether you want to continue, or not. This would not be a rash decision on your part. You've been here long enough, you've been through enough to make a rational decision about this. Please take care - Dru

Y? Because a Ws isn't human. Not male or female.

He speaks with a forked tongue because that what he has right now. U can call him on that when he does speak even the good stuff. I used to give mine that questionable look like....can I really believe what u r saying? Then I'd ask him just that.

L.

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Respectful,
I like your ideas...unfortunately RESPECT is probably one of the biggest ENs I have, and it's the one Toolman can never honor. His venom towards me is so sincere, he does not think I deserve ANY respect from him.

He's also disrespectful to others, so I'm not the only one to get this treatment.

I guess I'll call the Harley's just to get one more set of opinions. Thanks.

It's just never-ending. Tool keeps saying we're moving too fast toward the D. That's his opinion. I want out, and I want out now. I do NOT want to be married to tool anymore. I guess he's gonna try to stall the process, but I'm going to have to push it along. It would be so much cheaper and so much better for the kids if we could present a unified front, but I guess he's gonna play the "daddy doesn't want the D, mommy does" card.

Then I'll play the "daddies who don't want divorce don't have 20 year old girlfriends" card.

Then the kids are screwed for life, just because tool wanted to be a cake eater, and thought he could bully me into staying in the most F-ed up, disfunctional relationship I've ever seen.

Well, I sent an email to the Harley's this afternoon requesting an appointment. In my eagerness, I was hoping they could talk tomorrow, but I guess that was too much to ask--haven't heard back yet. Don't know how long it takes to get in, so I'll keep you posted.

Well, I've scheduled an appointment with Steve Harley for Monday afternoon. I don't know what I hope to get from it, but at least a fresh set of eyes on the situation will help.

They had me fill out a "love bank inventory" and I'm afraid mine will show a record low. I only had one answer that wasn't pegged at the bottom. I gave WH props for his physical image, but only a minus-one. Everything else was minus-three. Ouch. No wonder I have to get out!!!

Post deleted by Detached_Care

I would respectfully disagree.

She is divorcing him, not because he HAD an affair, but because he HAS and affair, and HAS a lover, and is not willing to give them up in order to save his marriage.

There is nothing disrespectful about that; it is simply the truth.

I would respectfully disagree with this as well. No need for anger or anguish? Just accept it and move on?

SC will heal, and will move on with time, but every BS knows the struggle with the normal emotions of anger and anguish, that are the direct result of being betrayed, and not because of some inherent flaw in the BS.

Post deleted by Detached_Care

She doesn't have to convince anyone, but that does not mean she is wrong for stating, calmly of course, why she is doing what she is doing.

Arguing is pointless with anyone, but that should not stop her from exposing the truth of her life to anyone she chooses.

What a load of cr*p! So she should just let her H walk all over her, boff the OW and then go off silently and D him? Nope. Exactly what is YOUR background?

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Ok, anyone see anything odd about the comments from respectful?

This person has a total of 4 posts on MB, and all of them are to me. Why?

Why pick the term "respect" when talking about how I talk about my WH? What do you know of the "respect" he's earned?

BTW, thanks Neak and FF for your responses. I'm so tired right now, I'm not able to fend off some of the attacks. I guess ~Respectful~ wants me to show ~respect~ to my H, right? Why? WIIFY, Respectful?

This seems very suspicious to me.

SC, put Respect on ignore.

I think that's what I've been doing for the last year, FF! Too bad it doesn't work so well in real life....

Hey Tool,

Why don't you get some respect by EARNING it.

As my hubby's grandma used to say, "For being so smart, you sure are stupid."

SC, sorry that you're having to go through this. As I said, Tool's a master manipulator. The more you get out from under his control, the worse he'll get. I think it's funny he's demanding any respect at all, when he gives you none.

Hang in there. Life sucks sometimes. You'll be so much better after you are away from him. Like you said, the way others see you is completely different from him. I can't even imagine how much he's worn you down -- it's time you stopped letting him.

Take a hike, Tool. Go start your own thread.

We've got your 6, SC.

Well, Tool categorically denies having anything to do with any "respectful" comments on this thread. Hmmmm.

Well, what does "respect" have to say? Why this thread? Why try to tell Ima/stonecold to be respectful, and ignore other threads?

Anyway, I am happy that I have an appt with S. Harley on monday, and tool has agreed to sit in. Maybe we can make some progress.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh, he is going to participate too? That's even better!

Post deleted by Detached_Care

R U a BS who tried to convince your H of what!?!?!?!? Please explain.

Better yet, share your story and why your interest in SC has been almost 100%.

Would you like us to help you create your own thread?

L.

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Orchid - are you thinking what I'm thinking - like R might be only about 20 years old?? This pointing out how SC is wrong about TM and then "there comes a time to walk away"??

this doesn't add up to be just a caring poster...

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Kayla, I am thinking and if I tell you all I'm thinking it would give away my MB stragety. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Keep your MB cap on and help out, ok?

Maybe we can help 2 sitches or id the real reason. It's been done before. Kinda like therapy, you want them to help themslves heal. What's that creed: Heal thy self? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

Ok Respectful, what I get is that you are posting at this time solely to SC but you are a married woman who doesn't want to share your story. But you have let us know that you realize your H and other WS (aka: Toolman) believe respect means t/d whatever regardless of who it hurts and not for any particular good reason. Is that a close summation? You give us very little to work on. But I'll bite.

1st of all....welcome to MB. Not sure what brought you to this site and to SC's thread in particular but time will tell and I'm a patient gal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You do realize that anyone who thinks they can do whatever to whoever is wrong. That is NOT respect. That is DISRESPECT to the hilt. So why even consider it as such? When people like that try to hide their bad acts behind a good word, then you know they are mixed up in their heads. Another word that gets used that way is: Love. There is real love (that endures, shares, cares and grows) and then there is the misinterpretation of love (used by the A particpants).

For a WS and OP to use the word love is totally out of context. Why? Because their R is not love it is lust at various levels. It tries to replacate love but it never can. Because the feelings created in the A did not orginate with the Author of love. The A is based on selfish destructive desires and it's author has no love in his spirit. He has a name but that's a whole 'nuther discussion. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Have we cleared up that point? How else can we help you?

L.

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Orchid: Huh? Do you use this same POV with murders? A man who abandons his family to have an A is guilty in the eyes of the law and God (don't want to go religious with this post, just making a statement).

I certainly do not understand your logic here. I do know that WS like to throw babble that the BS is always right and the WS is always wrong. Is that what u r saying? Cause that is NOT what I said in my prior post.


Orchid: Ok....so where are you going with this statement?


Orchid: So who should do the walking and why?


Orchid: You certainly are speculating and now you've got me wondering....why? Your responses seem very much like...... well you know....r u?

L.

Stonecold-
Good luck with the Harley meeting, although Im not really understanding WHY you felt you needed it. You want a divorce. You have definately earned your right to have one! Tool knew the boundaries you had, what the consequences of his actions would be when he broke them, and now its time to pay the piper.

You do not need permission or Tool's help in getting a divorce. If he fights, it just costs him more.

Im the BW of a serial adulterer who I can now proudly say worked a ****** of a lot on himself the past three years. Im proud to call him my husband today. I also had depression during a lot of our marriage, I just didn't know it. I've also worked really hard on my own faults and issues as well. Im very happy today. We celebrated our youngest son's 1 year birthday June 30th. Im really glad I found MB before we started counseling together. I know that when both spouses work together, it can be succesful.

All that being said-- if he did it again, and I hold no illusion that it couldn't happen, that's it, its over. The disrespect, the pain, the chaos, the lack of protection... I know what I want and it wouldnt involve dealing with that again.

I'm on pain meds so I apologize if this is rambling. I just want to tell you to stay strong and don't be afraid to follow through. Every single one of us knows just how much we can (or are willing) to take. I know I have done everything I can do to build a better marriage, so if my FWH CHOOSES to 'date'/screw around I'm outta here.

I caught my FWH up on your sitch, including the fogtalk from your WH, and my husband's advice to you:: "Get the ****** out."

Again, good luck. I will be rooting for you and thinking of you.

Good luck. I know how you feel stonecold...I also sought last minute, 11th hour advice from my minister and ss teachers about my filing...asked their opinions. Their optinions? Two wonderful sixty five year old sunday school teachers (ours since he and I had married)who taught married couples for over 25 years and my minister? They both said to divorce him. That he was unrepentant and was damaging. I knew that was my course then.

Asking the harleys may give some further insight as well. You're looking for backup showing you did the right thing/doing the right thing. And that is OK! That's good.

You're not doing this rash...you made it thru two terrible rounds of adultery and this time you're not buying any more.

And to the respectful person...RESPECTFUL? HOW IN THE ****** IS THE ADVICE YOU'RE DISHING OUT RESPECTFUL TO A BS? We have to learn how to respect OUR SELVES when faced with dealing with a venemous cake eating lying and stealing WS. WS can do everything from stealing family monies (for either funding an affair, going on costly trips, trinkets, and lies with the OP and their secret life), spreading STD's and placing the very lives of their H or W in jeopardy, damaging the children forever with their affairs, and break a holy vow ORDAINED BY GOD...

how is standing up for yourself being disprespectful? How is CALLING IT LIKE IT IS DISRESPECTFUL?

I think you need to GET SOME DARN RESPECT FOR YOURSELF AND GROW UP. Pollyanna thinking is well....so last century and baby grow up and get a spine ok? Maybe you also think it's disrespectful for women to ask for the right to vote or for equal rights huh? You're a bit DOOR-MAT-ISH...actually alot DOOR=MAT-ISH.

SC, I would still talk to Steve Harley either way, since you're able, and he will have many helpful things to say.

If you totally want a divorce and are completely closed off to the idea of reconciliation, then move fearlessly in that direction.

If however, you still have some doubt as to whether you want to give up, and wonder whether your marriage might still be salvageable, your answer is a swift, hard, unbroken Plan B.

Plan B him till he is on his knees.

I could be wrong, but I have the feeling you are still questioning whether to try one more time. If I'm wrong, that's cool and I can handle it, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />, and you still have my vote of confidence, but if I'm right, and you're not sure, you have some very good, very powerful options left.

And you could not ask for a better person than Orchid to bring you through a maze of false recoveries into a true one.

Are you familiar with the story of Job? Ever heard the phrase "Job's comforters"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would be delighted to elaborate if you haven't......

I would very much wonder why someone would come out of the blue and start urging you to walk away, and presenting you with the opinion that it is the only choice that will leave your dignity intact.

If said someone is just who they say they are, and not someone else, hopefully they will at least see from our responses to you, that they are not out of options, either.

You are a wonderful, strong woman, and I know you will come through this with you intact, regardless of the details of the story's end.

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Respectful,

U c/b a friend of SC or the OW herself. Not sure. You don't want to share your reason for being here but seem t/b particularly internested in Toolman and SC.

Regardless of your reason and if you have any inkling of what SC needs to go through even if it should end in a D, SC needs to come to that point in her time. Not in Toolman's timeframe. WS's are warped and often push the BS t/d the WS' dirty work.

So right now your words to help s/b to help SC remain strong. Finish her plan A so that when SC's mind and heart are in sync, she can do what she feels is best for her and her family. Where Toolman's state of mind or lack there of is at that time is his issue. At that time SC will be ready to take the appropriate steps. To do so premarturely c/b a setback for SC.

Now how what do you have to say, r u gonna help SC or r u a supporter of Toolman?

Btw, you don't share your story yet you are having similar issues with your H? Many of us think we would have known how to handle these types of sitches when we saw others going through them but we didn't realize all that was involved (even within ourselves) until we did have 1st hand experience. That I can speak from experience.

L.

SC,

Hugz my dear to you and your family. For now, concentrate on keeping you and your family on it's feet. There's a stranger in your home who is not being nice. DISRESPECTFUL to say the least.

Work on getting your mind and heart in sync. Toolman used to read here so he knows my speech. Yet it will still blow him away when U R ready.

Watch his words now and if he speaks about what I wrote, you will know. It won't weaken you..... you will find it will strengthen you. If he doesn't speak......then you will be strengthened. Why? Because u r working on you.

The WS losing strength when he loses control. That's the key and there's NOTHING they can do to rip out your spirit. They can try stupid means to hurt you and your family but your personal resolve is not his to take.

That is how others and myself have survived. Look the WS square in the eye.....they can't look back for long if at all. That's another tool giving away the gateway to their WS persona.

All the best,
L.

SC, I would just like to also point out that if those of us in recovered/recovering marriages had chosen to just accept that the WS mindset was how things were, and given up hope on what we thought should be, we would not be in recovered/recovering marriages.

A necessary part of reaching recovery, for the many who do, is holding on to the belief that the WS will regain their senses, and once again become the good person they used to be.

It is not wrong of you to realize that the WS is wrong for thinking, feeling, and acting as they do. It is useless to try and convince them of this, but if you believe it in yourself, it shows that your moral compass is still pointing the right direction.

I do not say this to be confrontational, or to try and persuade you to keep trying if you don't want to. I only wish to present an alternate POV.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged," does not mean we no longer recognize right from wrong. Sin is sin. But we can call sin by its right name without feeling as if we are somehow superior to the person with the sin, or that we are assured of a place in heaven while that evil sinner is gonna burn.

Do you see the difference? The Bible says, "By their fruits ye shall know them." One type of judgment weighs a person's actions against a measure of right and wrong. Another type of judgment, one that is the right only of God, judges a person's value and eternal destiny.

Your WS is wrong. What he thinks, feels, and does is wrong. But I will not try to say whether, in God's eyes, he is greater or less than any other human. I will not say what the future holds for him in eternity, though I would predict plenty of trouble in his earthly life if he does not repent.

Only you can decide how you want to go about this, but there are enough success stories on here that you know Respectful's story is not the only possible ending for adultery.

Wow. Thank you for all the great advice, folks. I was out of town Saturday, visiting my mom with DD9, so that's why I haven't posted. It will probably take me a few posts to respond to everyone, but here is my first, kind of overall, post.

It has been almost 2 weeks since Dday#2. Toolman keeps hoping that I will soften my opinion with time. So far, this has not taken place. I believe I have reached a point of no-return in the M. Here are my reasons:

#1 I categorically DO NOT want to live with someone who has such a low opinion of me. Anyone who could turn me into DCF b/c he thought I'd harm my children really has no understanding of who I am. Anyone who thinks I already AM harming my children is nutz.

#2 Even if I could get past #1, which will NEVER happen, I'd have to get past the fact that my husband apparently prefers the company of women half his (and my) age. Sorry, but any way you cut it, that's just plain SICK.

#3 Even if I could get past #1 and #2, which will NEVER, EVER happen, I would demand certain lifestyle changes that Toolman would NEVER EVER agree to. First, he would have to completely open up his phone, email, voicemail and any other personal files for inspection. I would NEVER trust him again, so this would have to be a lifetime of being scrutinized. Tool views scrutiny as abuse, plain and simple. He should not have to live with abuse.

Secondly, I would demand that Toolman NEVER EVER speak to his worthless brother again. This is the person who has systematically poisoned Tool against me, and served to facilitate the rekindled affair, and was fully knowledgeable of the original affair. He is public enemy #1, and I never plan to speak to him again. Tool would never agree to these terms.

#4 Most importantly, I have lost every shred of positive emotion regarding Toolman. I have no respect for him as a husband, a father, and even a provider. I would not ever agree to depositing one stinking penny into his love bank. In fact, I hope his bank burns to the ground. (With worthless BIL inside.)

There is NO hope that I would ever be happy in this M ever again. The only reason I wanted to talk to the Harley's is b/c our current MC is so admant that we don't D. She claims my children will be permanently ruined from the process. So there it is...plain and simple guilt. I don't want to be the one to hurt my kids (although toolman apparently thinks I'm a constant threat). I'm hoping the Harley's will hear our story and, given their experience with so many marriages, will agree that the damage is irreparable. Sometimes, it really is beyond repair.

To Respectful:

This is from DivorceBusting:
"The Walkaway Wife Syndrome

SC: Yes. This is me. I am a wife, and I am walking away. The only difference is that my H is not capable of making the changes neccessary for me to be anything but miserable in our Marriage. Trust me. I am certain of this.

Secondly, I DO NOT still have a heart. I can't stand the sight of him, yet I endure his presence for the sake of the children. While I know this is not possible because of the children, I would be happy if I never saw him again for the rest of my life. He is a negative, toxic influence in my life.

From respectful:
This is her story. I don't want to share mine. I just ask her to consider what all the MC has done. Years from now, will she look back and see that all her effort was a waste of time and breath? There comes a time to walk away.

SC: Lots of truth. MC has done nothing. The effort was a waste of time. There IS a time to walk away.....NOW.

Orchid, thank you and kaylandy for your insight. I suspect that "respectful" is someone who knows us...and there are a few candidates. I doubt the 20 year old would take a break from scooping icecream to post.

Regardless, it is all very suspicious. I appreciate you trying to clear up the true meaning of 20 year old, 44 year old, affair love, but I think we're wasting our breath. To tell you the truth, he can keep her, just stop delaying the D process.

I've decided that I'm going to remain silent on the current threads about whether we should be helping affair marriages as well as affair marriage threads. I certainly have my own opinion, but I want all the threads to drop off the first page, so we can get back to helping the folks with real problems, rather than in-fighting.


Ok, update on my story...I have a call with S. Harley in about an hour. Toolman will also be in attendance. I will present my miserable situation, and see what he has to say.

Let me also say it saddens me to see so many good people at war over the same type of person who has brought so much pain into our lives already (the OP). Hopefully, in time, folks will agree to simply disagree.

Hey SC....flare prayer sent up for PEACE in your life.

AML,
Kimmy

Good luck with your call Stoney!

I think you have earned your divorce, and your reasons listed above are very valid.

Tool would have to do some extraordinary repentence and he hasn't even come close. For gosh sakes has he even ended the affair???

As far as the Walk-Away Wife post -- its not you. Does not fit your situation. It fit mine. Your husband betrayed you.

Thanks Lexxxy and DD.

To answer your Q, Lexxxy,
YES WH has ended the affair.
Categorically.
Without a doubt.

Except he had done that once before.
Ended it.

Until he started it, again.

Sort of like a heroin addict quits for good.
Then starts back again.

Cannot be trusted.
Actions speak.

BTW, there is still phone contact, and maybe more with OW, but that's ok, since they're just friends.

(Can you hear me laughing from here?)

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Sometimes (often) you can have your marriage and self-respect, too.

This is why the answer to a determined WS is Plan B. You remove yourself from their disrespect and chaos, but without necessarily shutting the door permanently on the marriage.

And your self-respect remains intact.

Thank you Respectful, and Neak, for your words.

.....heavy....heavy....sigh....

I'd like to say I'm confused right now, but I guess I'm just frustrated.

Unfortunately, by bringing Toolman into the discussion with Steve Harley, things have not cleared up as I would have liked. S. Harley asked if H was capable of making the home a "safe" place for me, and asked same question of me. It is easy for Toolman to say, "Heck yeah, I can make the home a safe place, if Ima/Stonecold will just trust me."

I guess it may take more than one session before S. Harley is ready to agree it's time to throw in the towel. Guess he's trying to give Tool the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't help me, though.

Here I sit, completely unwilling to make one more single concession towards a marriage, and yet people are still telling me to work on it. Neak, the reason I fear plan B is two-fold.

First, given time, the acute pain of Toolman's most recent affair will fade. I might start thinking, "Well, he's not screwing the little thing anymore, so maybe I can just be comfortably miserable with him again, for the sake of the children." (Remember, I did this back in May, if you check the link I threw in about a week and a half ago.) I really know that I don't want to be comfortably miserable ever again.

Second, Plan B is supposed to be done only while there is an active affair, right? Well, Tool insists the A is over (again), so he'd say, time to move me back in and start living our miserable existence again. This A will rekindle every time the little girl gets a break from college. This A or another A will start again, now that Tool has realized that the price for an A is a month or two of misery, and ONLY if you get caught.

Tool has not and will not change that dramatically. Small changes? Maybe. Same goes for me. Why must we keep flogging this dead marriage? Why will it be MY fault if we D, even though we both made the M miserable, but Tool has chosen to have not one, but TWO affairs?

Good news is this...S. Harley asked Toolman to schedule an individual appt with him to discuss some ideas. I sincerely doubt Tool will ever get around to this, and maybe that will help S. Harley understand what I mean about the hopelessness. For now, here I sit, trapped in a no-man's-land.

Yet another......heavy...heavy...sigh....

None of this is your fault -- and if you want a divorce, get one.
No one expects you to stay in a marriage with a multiple time cheating husband. His fault he couldn't keep it in his pants.

End of story/end of marriage.
He's already out of the house. The worst is over. The kids will recover. And so will you. You deserve some happiness and peace.

You can Plan B with or without an active A, and whether or not you plan to even think of trying again.

I would recommend Plan B if there were a dismally stalled non-recovery that was causing the BS a great deal of pain, and I would also recommend Plan B if you were divorcing, but for very different reasons than the standard PB. In the case of #2, it's primary purpose would be removing you from his chaos, rather than preserving your love.

One thing is for sure: I would never in a million years recommend that you try again with someone who was not demonstrating a complete change.

Promises are not enough. He would have to actually DO STUFF, and be willing to do a whole lot more. The whole ball of wax: extreme precautions, MC, moving, the works!

Do not be snookered by promises. (I don't think you will.) The only time I would be in favor of another go-round is after he was already showing you plenty of changes.

Which is why I am such a fan of Plan B. It will either motivate him to accomplish those changes, and you will think about whether or not to reconcile, or it will not motivate him and you will move on with less conflict than you would have otherwise.

Regardless of the end, I just think you will get there more smoothly with a good Plan B.

Orchid - any opinion on this?

I know how you feel. Option 2 was most attractive to me when I entered plan B the last time. I wanted the break from the chaos.

And you'r right. He knows he gets parolled if he does a little penance honey. He does just the littlest bit to say he did some "work on himself and the M".

and unless the man is 100 percent repentant and wanting the M to work, he WILL REPEAT THE AFFAIRS AGAIN AND AGAIN...like a broken record. It wore me down! it did. The multiple d days. I felt like I was losing my mind. He lied to me so many times I didn't know what was truth from fiction.

And I came to just feel that I was resigned to a life of sadness...

And I didn't want a divorce either. But I didn't want the life I had been living.

LIVING WITH A TRULY UNREPENTANT WS IS A PURGATORY IN ITS OWN RIGHT. It is horrible.

You can't move ahead. You're too sad to want to move on. You always seem to be looking back. Wondering if YOU DID ALL YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO...FOR THE M...FOR THE KIDS...FOR THE GOOD OF THE FAMILY UNIT...ALWAYS PUTTING YOURSELF LAST AND OUT OF THE HAPPINESS EQUATION.

Sadly, it's these unrepentant WS who find the personal gratification. They've mastered the art of living for themselves. WE? We will work ourselves into the ground for the good of the M and family...We will do the right things when even they don't feel good and don't really make us giddy with excitement...WHY? SOME OF US ARE TRULY MATURE AND UNDERSTAND THAT LIFE DOESN'T ALWAYS GIVE YOU WANT YOU WANT AND EXACTLY AT THE TIME YOU WANT IT.

I'd personally begin a legal separation. With papers and agreement in place. Him paying CS. Let him get a taste of the D'd life. See if his TALKED ABOUT CHANGES he wants to make become REAL CHANGES HE WILL MAKE...not just words spouted off into the air to get him off the hook.

I'd begin moving in a direction positive and forward...and if during this time, he can 100 percent change and learn from his stupid mistakes and become a spouse somebody WOULD WANT TO ACTUALLY CLAIM AS THEIR OWN? Then YOU CAN CONSIDER TAKING HIM BACK.

But the power is yours. YOU call the shots now. NOT him. And you work on you. Begin healing you.

If he is able to somehow pull this thing off? KUDOS TO HIM.

I am not 100 percent giving up on you and the M yet stonecold...but I am about 96 percent there...

There is that pesky 4% I'd like to see the man address.

HEY TOOL...SHOW ME THE CAJONES...BE A MAN OF HONOR AND PRINCIPAL. SEE IF YOU CAN DO THIS AND PROVE ME WRONG! BE A STAND UP GUY FOR YOUR WIFE AND YOUR KIDS...

QUIT BEING THE DAVID LEE ROTH ICE CREAM MAN AND GIVE UP YOUR 31 FAVORITE FLAVORS OF THE DAY AND BE A MAN...A MARRIED FAITHFUL MAN WHO KNOWS THERE IS A BETTER WAY TO LIVE...A BETTER WAY TO LOVE...AND A WAY TO SAVE HIS FAMILY BEFORE IT'S FOREVER TOO LATE.

Or else I can give you darth's number so you two can go chasing ice cream trucks......

Or be like the boy who finally decided he was too old to play with Barbies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

SC-
Just remember this- You, and YOU ALONE, make your decisions.

You do not need the Harleys' permission. You do not need ours. Not one person could villify you for deciding to leave that chaos behind.

Just know that whatever you decide, there will be people here willing to help you do your best and work through it.

SC,

Glad you had your session with Steve. So the Tool guy was there? Good.

Don't worry about the progress. Remember this is your 1st session right? Steve made progress.

Now go tell that toolboy not t/b so flippant and say he can when he isn't. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Let him konw each time he opens his mouth and puts his foot in it (WS babble) he gives himself halloTOWsis (toe breathe). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Consider this progress. The Tool just made a statement/commitment that he can. Now you have to say whether he is or isn't. To don't be too nice and say he is giving his best when he ain't. Let Steve have that convo w/him.

Believe it or not, Tool c/b at a turning point. At this time he could easily revert to the JackWSness that he WAS. Hm..... If he does, you know what t/d. If he doesn't you get some relief. Either way, you come out ahead.

Now go gloat.... you did have a good session. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thanks everyone. I'm going to have to do some thinking. I'm not ready to do any more suffering, and I'm not willing to do anything to make my marriage better. I'll give it a few more days to see if that changes, but I don't expect it will.

The idea of going dark in a plan B will be very traumatic to the children, Neak. School has just started here, and there are myriad activities where both parents are invited, nee, expected to attend. Having only one parent attend will be very upsetting to the children. I'd probably have to stay home, since Tool would say the plan B is my idea.

I do plan to limit my contact, but we still have MC sessions scheduled with our regular counselor next week. I don't think I can do a good plan B, so it's best I don't try at all, based on how I've seen half-azzed plan B's go on this board.

JP, I'd do legal separation, but there's no such thing in florida...just divorce. WH used this "controlled separation" tactic as a method to start dating other women, so the whole "separation" method doesn't sit well with me anyway.

So thanks, all. I appreciate your input. It's hard to even keep "real life" problems on the front page of the GQII anymore, with all the in-fighting, so I really appreciate ya'll finding my thread to post to me!

stone,

When dealing with multiples (yeah, I speak from experience) I really do think it's important to ^UP^ the ante. By that I mean the conditions for reconciliation and establishing safety are strict and non-negotiable. If Tool is unable to meet those conditions (like the ones you posted by number)...that's his choice....you have your answer. My husband was....to my surprise....and after 4 years....while I don't have some juvenile level of blind trust....trust has been re-established and he has made a real turn around in his attitude about marriage.


Don't worry dawlin....I can walk and chew gum at the same time! LOL

You're much more coordinated than I am, then!!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Stone,
You're accepting too much responsibility. You're listening to foggy talk.
Tool is trying to spin the tale that the divorce is Stone's fault. Tool doesn't want a divorce.

If you truly want a divorce -- stop negotiating with him. Stop listening to him.

Tool needs to come to a point where he accepts the responsibility for the affair, the state of the marriage, and the divorce.

Its pretty lame to blame you for a divorce when he has done the things he has done. A perfectly normal person would want a divorce when he's had multiple affairs, told millions of lies, and called the CPS on you!!!
Just one of those items would be enough for a divorce.

So simply stop accepting the blame.

IMO, Tool has so much work to do. If he wants to take that on, great. But you should proceed with the divorce; in the very likelyhood that he won't complete all the work he needs to do.

If he wants to be married to you -- give him a good lengthy list of what it takes. And proceed with the divorce. Hey, if he comes through you can always get back together. But in the meantime, you need the safety and protection of the divorce.

Thanks Lexxy and Respectful for insightful comments, again.

I'm feeling pretty down today (hopefully tool doesn't read this and call DCF again, to say I'm off my meds). Today was DD9's first day of 4th grade. We start pretty early here, I know.

Anyway, I was dropping her off at school, seeing all the parents I've known since kindergarten, and I just wanted to crawl into a hole. All the, "Hi, how was your summer? How is Toolman? The kiddies look so happy."

I had to smile and pretend everything was ok. See, this is where the guilt starts coming in. Seriously, do I have a right to put the kids thru the D, just b/c I hate toolman? Is that selfishness? I recently read that kiddies would prefer to be with their parents together, even if the parents hate each other.

BTW, there is a really LOW divorce rate in our town, or at least among our friends and aquaintances. The children are not close to any other kids who have divorced parents. I'm just so pissed at Toolman right now. How could he put me in this position? I feel anger, guilt, disgust, sadness and frustration.

Sorry to vent so early in the am!

Stone,

I know how you feel about the kids. That is something I have been struggling wth since I served him the D papers.

My kids deserve 2 parents in the house. I's not fair to them to not have that becasue WH and I can't get along. This is never what I wanted for them. They shouldn't have to go through this. They didn't ask for 2 parents to be like this. They are stuck with us.

I feel I was too hasty in serving the D papers. Maybe we could have worked things out and not have had the kids or us, become a statistic.

I know my sit. is not the same as yours, but the kids are the key for me too.

Do I want this for them if there is a chance things could work out for WH and I?

So far he's not interested. Living with OW, who also is 17 years younger than him, but is it a fling for him, a MLC? Can things work out?

Wish we had a crystal ball.

Hang in there, I will pray for you.

(((catgirl)))

I know you've had a tough go of it lately, and I think about your sit a lot, b/c we do have some really parallels. Hopefully, we'll both get thru this and our kids will be happy along with us.

I totally agree about the crystal ball, btw!

Hi (((((((((stone))))))))))

I have a son starting fourth this year too. Such a sweet age!! Too bad you couldn't send some really cute pictures of your children to the OW's parents. This makes me so mad!

I've read ALOT about kids and D. Saw videos of actual kids talking about how it affected them. It broke my heart.It affected their lives so much. It was so very sad. Who turned to drugs, alcohol, got pregant at 16, etc, etc. This video followed people through age 30. They were still affected then!

I'm blaming myself now that since I filed for D, I'm the one causing these kids a lifetime of pain. As I said, maybe we could have worked things out.

D affects these kids more than we ever can imagine. Might not see it now, but when they start their own relationships, it could surface then.

My kids are acting out a lot lately. IC said it's realted to this situation. Not fair that kids have to be in IC. They should be enjoying their lives!

It saddens me more than I can ever say to know that WH put them in a situation that they now have no choice. They didnt ask us to be their parents. They thought they'd have 2 parents living together as a family forever. Isn't that how it should be??!!!

His selfishness to have an A, and he could care less how it's hurting them. He told me he doesn't see a difference in them when he takes them once a week. Sure, cuz he's not living with them 24/7!

OW's parents know WH has kids, knows he's old enough to be her father. They are not happy at all with her living with him. Wants her to come back home, but OW doesn't care what her parents think. Now that she's filed D, she'll never leave WH.

All we can do is hang in there, we have no choice. I take comfort in knowing that I will NEVER abandon my kids and hopefullly someday my kids will see that I was the one always there for them.

You can search my years of posts here (not a regular, but added up, I've posted quite a bit). You will NEVER EVER find a post that will even hint at the tone I'm going to give this response...but here it goes....

That man is a DickWad. (there, I said it).

The whole story stinks, of course. But the fact that he called DCS on you goes beyond reason. If they believed him, or at least "doubted" you, the possibility existed that those children could have been taken away and put into a foster home. Sure, there are a lot of very very good foster families out there, AND, there are a lot who do it for the CASH. Don't give a damn about the kids. Your kids could have ended up in that situation, maybe for months, while they sorted through the crap he threw out there.

SHAME ON HIM! Disgusting piece of dirt. I will say no more about him.

As for you, Stone, I am impressed with you, a lot. You are articulate. You have a sense of humour (even in the midst of this chaos he and his wee one tossed into your world). You will survive this, and I have NO DOUBT that you will end up in a much healthier state of mind because of it. And, down the road, who knows.... Love can come again, and if it does, it certainly couldn't be any worse, could it????

You're going to have to trudge through the mud for awhile, because he'll keep slinging it. But, there will come a point when all is done, the papers are signed, the divorce is a done deal, and you will be free.

And he'll go onto some next young thing, again and again. His story is already written. Yours is open-ended.

Everything WSish Tool has done, especially calling the authorities, was terrible.

I also understand the pain each of you has been in, and why you would feel as if there is no hope at all, SC, Catgirl, and Janet.

But "once a cheater always a cheater" is not always true, and at least for me, the point in the A where I felt the lowest, and could not see any hope that he would ever change, was just the point where all perdition broke loose in Fantasyland.

At the same time, SC, if you decide to divorce, and I wouldn't blame you a bit if you did, you MUST NOT take upon yourself one teeny tiny bit of blame for what happens to the children, or of what anyone thinks of you, or him.

IT IS ALL HIS FAULT!!!!!!

I will give you a cyberhug {{{{{SC}}}}} as I ask this question so you know I am not being mean, but why are you pretending everything is fine to the other parents?

"Stone, how are you?"

"Fairly well, considering that my husband has been having an affair for the last ___ months with Ms. Babydoll."

I am not kidding in the least. These are wonderful exposure opportunities that you need to use. Do not hide his affair from anyone. Tell everyone you can.

It doesn't even matter what you want about the marriage. Even if you divorce, you don't want your children exposed to the affair, so it is imperative to still try and kill it for their sakes, even if you never reconcile. Also, Tool is incapable of being a good father while he is a WS. This is ALL for your kids.

And if your home breaks up, you maintain as much stability as you can for them, knowing that you went above and beyond to give them a chance at an unbroken home, but that their father CHOSE his little toy instead of their happiness. Not your fault at all!!!

Tool might step up at this point and surprise you the way my husband, Star's husband, and many others have done.

It still doesn't make any of this your fault, and if he is trying to tell you that, he has not yet changed.

Never take your WS back, but a FWS is worth at least considering.

I am totally in love with Neak right now.

Like ga-ga!

- Kimmy, who is Neak's new cheerleader! gggGGGOOOO Neak!

I find myself feeling suddenly....CHEERED. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have I mentioned that I adore you, too?

Neak, I know that "once a cheater, always a cheater" is not always so. It's not JUST the cheating that floors me with this guy. Calling the authorities and lying is beyond "fog", it's mean, it is horrid, it is selfish, it is immature. It goes beyond WRONG. I think cheating is awful. I think there are few things that are worse. To me, putting his children in the potential situation of being removed from their parents so that he can "get back" at his wife (who has EVERY right to be angry)shows a character flaw that I'd personally not want to have to deal with...esp. on top of his other stuff.

But, I'm Pollyanna. IF he is capable of turning his life around, I would wish the two of them the very best, and mean it. But, I'm skeptical...very skeptical.

He should be down on his knees begging forgiveness.

Thanks ladies, for the ideas and feedback. I'm still feeling down, but it comes in waves, rather than happening all the time.

Neak, here's the thing about exposure...
First, Tool claims the A is over (again). While there is still probably phone contact, I can't prove anything else, at this time. I know, this is still contact, and so really the "A" is still "on."

Second, exposing to the folks at school means that we will become dinner table gossip, and I KNOW that students are going to corner DD9 and DS5 and say, "I heard your momma and daddy are divorcing, because yer daddy's cheatin' with a 20 year old." Now, the concept of cheating may be lost on the children, but the concept of divorce certainly isn't.

And, coward that I am, I have not confirmed to the children that we are divorcing. I will tell them AFTER I file, b/c if there's one thing worse than D for the children, it's a parent who threatens D and doesn't follow thru. I find that abusive, so they will be the "last to know." Sure, they may suspect, but as long as mom and dad aren't fighting, and we show up to school events together, the kids still have hope, so I'm waiting to break the news.

Third, I've exposed to a number of people, and have gotten a lot of support. However, as you know, folks have different ways of ~supporting~ in this sitch. Some are the "just let me know how I can help" kind of supporters, and others are the "I never want to talk to the lyin', cheatin' ba$[censored] again" type. Already, my family has decided he is "dead" to them. They are in mourning. They do not want to hear ANY talk of attempts at reconcilliation. While they know I'm far from perfect, they see the effect this A has had on me. They see the negative situation I'm in, and they think it's the best thing that could have happened.

This is why I didn't expose to my family the first time--b/c I KNEW there would be no going back. Now that they know all the gory details, including the DCF call, they will NEVER forgive Tool. It's going to be awkward at graduations, weddings and funerals FOREVER.

While I still have no regrets for exposing, and still have no intentions to reconcile, further exposure does not seem to be prudent. My closest friends and family know, and they may tell others, but I don't want my kids to be part of the rumor mill around here. Does that make any sense?

It makes absolutely perfect sense to me.

Well, Toolman had an appt. with Steve Harley today.

I wonder if he mentioned to Harley that he STOLE 12K out of one of our savings accounts. He was trying to hide it, opened a secret bank account, and hid the $$ and the record of it. I just noticed the 12K deduction from our IRA and Investment summary.

If he took it from an IRA account he likely needed YOUR signature to do so....did he FORGE your signature.

Follow up with the bank and make sure that they are aware of the situation. A familiar banker will just trust your husband when he says, "sure stonecold signed the distribution form right there". They need to know NOT to trust your husband right now.

Mr. Wondering

He is beginning to rank up there with D23B on my Creep'o'meter.

I'm mad as a wet cat for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Oh you had to go and mention D23B.

I thought I felt a chill.

Sorry Noodlebug.

Ok, it WASN'T out of an IRA, just one of our investment accounts (we get a statement with the IRAs and the regular investments). I thought ALL of our investments were IRA-type investments. Turns out Tool apparently had saved about $50K while we were dating, and he dropped it into some Mutual Fund or something.

Even though that account has been there all along, I guess I just figured it was an IRA. Guess it's all "his money" as he puts it, since he brought it into the M. Funny, though, since before we were M, when we started dating, we were both penniless. I made more than him for the first 5 years of our R, but somehow, he managed to save that huge chunk of cash w/out telling me. I'll go back and check the history on this account, though. I'm doubly pissed however, since,
(1) I paid for the majority of our "partying" as young adults, since he said he was so poor. Guess that was b/c he was paying himself first. Which would make sense, IF we were sharing it. We weren't and we aren't.
(2) He opened a secret bank account and made that withdrawl from the portfolio w/out telling me a thing.
He claims it's all spelled out on the spreadsheet he gave me for the finances, but he buried it inside of another existing account, to hide the presence of the new account. He also is holding onto about $4200 in "mad money" to pay his attorney retainer. I was planning on borrowing from my family to pay my retainer.

This just sucks and sucks and sucks some more.

I can't believe he's even fooled Steve Harley into believing he can change. Tool's giving me the "if we divorce, it's because YOU wanted it" bullchit.

So tell me about D23B--can I learn some lessons here?

Ok, is D23B the X of Momto3Boys? I'll have to re-read her threads.

Yep, I can understand you not wanting news to get back to the kids that way.

(But I'll bet if you borrowed a can of Melody Lane's Aquanet, you'd tell everybody everything, lol. Shoot, you'd probably take out an ad in the paper, buy all the billboards in town, and wear a sandwich board when you left the house.)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Another sleepless night for me. It just keeps getting worse and worse. After yesterday's finacial revelations, I cannot see another path, other than divorce. Steve Harley keeps saying that the path to the happy marriage might be around the corner, but I don't even see a corner.

I can't understand how this is supposed to work. I'm starting a new job on Monday, in a new profession, and I should be excited. Right now, I just feel dred, b/c I know that the kids are gonna get sick, and Tool will be too busy surfing or something to come over to watch them.

If you were to tell me last July that I would have had this past year ahead of me, I might have considered suicide. Now that I'm in it, I just slog thru, in some kind of haze. Well, life goes on. No one has a guarantee of happiness, do they? Time to get my DD9 off to school.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

{{{{{SC}}}}}

Thanks, Neak. Hugs back at you!

In a gesture of trust, Tool allowed me to pop into his office and get on his computer to see who he's been emailing, etc. Guess the good news is there wasn't anything from the Troll on there.

I was saddened by another email thread, though. Remember how Tool said I was Bipolar? Well, I got an email from the Dr. Phil show (I don't know why I get these, but that's another story) saying they had an upcoming episode about Bipolar disorder. I emailed it to Tool, thinking, ok, if he got to see REAL Bipolar in action, he'd stop calling me that.

Instead, I uncovered a thread where he forwarded the Dr. Phil thing to his mom, asked her to tape the show for him. She emails back, "That's really sickening." He says, "Yeah, that's my life, every day. Did ya tape it?"

So, I'm really bummed. I'll have to watch the tape, but basically, I'm mad that he's going around telling people that's what his life is like...BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

Maybe I'll have to add delusional to my list of psychiatric disorders, because I just don't see any of this. I don't want to be married to a man who thinks this is what I am, and I don't want to be related to him. Too late for that, I guess. Now, I'm stuck trying to figure out how to manage someone who has decided they are managing me.

Stone,

WS's behave JUST like bi-polars in a manic episode. So it's likely a transference thing. That along with some blame shifting.

Thinking he can have/maintaint a family and a 20 year baby for a sex kitten...now that IS a dellusion of grandeur.

His energy and anxiety as he flipped from real life to fantasy life and back again likely furhter supports such diagnosis of HIM:

Racing thoughts
Lack of sleep
overproductive Sex drive
INFIDELITY
narcisstic tendencies
Above the law
absolute authority
controlling
Self -centeredness

I'm just going off the top of my head...but Toolman sounds far more bi-polar lately than you ever have to me.

Mr. Wondering

OH GOOD!

Listen to Senor Dubya!

He is DEAD ON there!

Arrrggh..... tell Tool if he thinks he can diagnosis 'bi-polar' and you managed to still be the faithful one....what disgusting disease does he have? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thank you, Mr. Wondering, for the assessment. I'm starting to understand this a little more.

I believe it is important for tool to see me in an inferior light, so that he can somehow justify his actions. I just don't see a lot of good-faith efforts on his part.

He's padding his nest and preparing for divorce, but at the same time asking me to trust him and work on the M. You can't really have it both ways.

I'll give him small credit for letting me visit his office, but I was still stunned to see what he had written about me to his family.

Well, my DS5 just threw up, so I've got to go for now. He starts kindergarten on monday, so I hope this isn't something serious. Probably will be. Monday is also my first official day at work, so I'm sure Tool will find a way to screw me on that one, too.

More to come about last night's latest Passive-Agressive move.

StoneCold - My best counsel will be to prepare for Monday as a single mom would - because that's essentially what you are - find a back up plan so that you get to work on time. Whatever it takes - do not count on tool to do anything but sabotage! So if you don't count on him/depend on him, he can do nothing but spin his nasty little wheels on his own grist!

Boundaries.

Can someone help me understand this concept a little better?


In preparing for this D, I am trying to stay "dark" as much as possible. I won't call it a plan B, since I'm really not trying to get back together, I'm just trying to transition into the D, and get the children used to seeing us separated so the news of the pending D won't be as shocking.

Anyway, WH keeps finding reasons to come over. He has spent the past two nights in my home, without asking my permission. He says it's his home, too. Basically, he's got the flu, and he's feeling very ill. So, he's been drugging up and crashing in the kiddie's room. He didn't ask--he just did it.

This morning, I finally went in there and told him after he did the sunday morning pancakes with the children, he needed to find somewhere else to recuperate. He called me heartless. I said, "no, I'm not being heartless. you are invading my personal space. you have asked me to delay the D, yet you are not repecting my boundaries. you don't get the 'in sickness and in health' part of the marriage vows, b/c you didn't respect the other part."

Now, he's being all pissy and disrespectful to me. He's also trying to garner pity. To be honest, I wouldn't even go to his FUNERAL right now, if it weren't for the kids. There is no way in he11 I'm gonna help nurse him back to health. He can go over to his mommy's house or something, since they all think I'm a bipolar nut.

Anyway, I feel it was completely within my rights to tell him to leave. I wanted to get your take on this.

BTW thanks KaylaAndy, for the advice...I'm going to start living my ENTIRE life as a single mom would, that way I don't need to expect any support from Toolman.

You are within your rights morally, but unless the divorce has been filed and the judge has set something up, you may not legally be able to keep him out.

If it were me, I would probably still change the locks, and not give him a copy unless he demanded it. Then take your time.

Or install a safety chain on the front door so even with a key, he cannot just let himself in.

But it will be hard until you have a ruling from a judge.

Thanks Neak. Yes, I am aware that I cannot LEGALLY ask Tool to leave the house. However, Tool remains insistent that we can salvage the M, and has gone to MC, and IC, and 2 sessions with S. Harley. One of the things S. Harley told him is that he needs to make me feel SAFE.

Now, I'm not asking him to make me feel safe. He doesn't have to do that--he's doing it b/c he thinks he can work on the M. If he doesn't want to work on the M, then DON'T. But know that I'm filing for the D as soon as I can to protect myself from the enemy. He can't stall me by saying he needs time to prove to me that the M can work, and then turn around and not respect my boundaries. At least, that's the way I see it. Am I kidding myself?

SC,

When I was preparing for my D (when I was ready NOT when the OW/WS demanded I do it), the WS came running back. NOT to stop the A but to STOP the D. WHAT??? Yep, there is a difference to the WS, even in the fog. Even the OW was supposedly trying to 'counsel the WS t/g back to his family'. What a nutcase!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway....it took me a while to figure it out but I gave the responsbility for fixing our family over to the WS/Xws. Told him I was ready to detach since as a WS he made us learn how to live without him and we did it and survived! He was shocked and hurt. Still didn't end the A right away but plan B is what I used several times (false recovery stuff) and plan D was in the wings.....Paperwork was ordered by never used.

So my suggestion is you move forward with the D if you feel that is what you need t/d. Your anger phase is where you seem t/b now and he knows he is treading on thin ice. His anger outbreaks will set YOU back, let him know that. Then walk away and see how HE deals with it.

In other words....let him know what he is doing. I recommend you both agree to find a 'conversation opening line', one that each agrees to respectfully respond to. Ours went something like this:

Example 1:
BS: Can I ask you a question?

Xws: NO

BS: Ok....(BS walks away - no sarcastic comment....until u r far away or post it to your journal or post on MB). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Example 2:
BS: Can I ask you a question?

Xws: WHAT?

BS: (no response - BS does NOT respond to anger - BS leaves the room and posts on journal or MB)

Example 3:

BS: Can I ask you a question?

Xws: No, I'm busy. Ask me later....(WS responses nicely and gives time when he w/b available).

BS: Ok. (BS leaves the room.....if she is still upset, posts to journal or goes on MB as needed but it is important to give him his space at this time).

Example 4:
BS: Can I ask you a question?

Xws: Yes? (tone was nice)

BS: Ok....my question is......

NOTE: The question c/b about anything big or small, not always A or R related.

The asking the a question phrase went both ways.

L.

Thanks Orchid...good advice. See, lately I don't CARE about DJ and LB b/c I'm already gone, mentally. In a way, it's quite liberating, but on the other hand, I don't like to behave badly in front of the kids, and I don't want to get into the habit of behaving badly, period.

This was one of the reasons our M has failed: I have allowed WH to behave badly for an extended period of time, and eventually, he could not break the habit when I demanded the behavior stop. Kinda like letting someone work up to a pack a day smoking habit, then telling them they have to quit. Doesn't work. In my case, I'm going to try not to start smoking. In Tool's case, he'll never be able to quit.

Anyway, thanks for the conversational advice.

Stonecold: Please read the links in my sig line, especially the first one. I think they're talking to you.
Mulan

SC,

It's been a while....how r u doing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Bumping this, because I am wondering as well.

Thanks for asking how things are going, Orchid and Mojodiva. I don't really know how to answer that, but I'll try.

Well, I started a new job on Monday, as a reporter or a local newspaper. It's a full time job, and it took about 50 hours last week just to do my job. It was fun, though, and I didn't have a spare minute to sit and feel sorry for myself.

Toolman has had three sessions with Steve Harley, and we have a joint one tomorrow afternoon. I don't really know why we're still doing the counseling thing, but I'm going along with it because it's hard to muster energy to fight.

Tool has done two "exercises" given to him by S. Harley, including a letter of "sincere" apology about what he's done, and a long list of how to make sure there is NC forever and ever. ~~~Shrug~~~~

It's nice that he's done that, I guess, but it really doesn't make me feel any better. I'm just going along like this automaton, acting like everything is ok for the kiddies. Right now DD9 has asked me to help her make a chocolate chip cookie cake for Tool's b'day tommorrow. So, here I am, helping her decorate a g-dammed cookie, thinking all along, "He doesn't deserve this!"

But I do it anyway, because DD9 DESERVES to make a cake for her daddy. I don't know what to do with this whole thing. I feel really trapped. We don't have enough money to support two households, and if we sell this house, the tax ramifications will make it so that I'll be lucky if I can afford a two bedroom rental on the crummy side of town. The kids will have to leave their outstanding elementary school, the only school they've ever known and go to a crummy one across town. They'll lose all their friends...

...All because daddy couldn't keep it in his pants and mommy couldn't forgive him.

So that's my life.

Stop blaming yourself, or I refuse to be held responsible for the consequences! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, you gave him a chance at forgiveness, and he blew it off.

If your family breaks up, it is ALL HIS FAULT!!!!! (I wasn't quite shouting, or I would have used bold, too.)

The eternal optimist, I still see a lot of potential of hope for your marriage, but ONLY if he immediately does EVERYTHING he should have done all along, does it consistently, and does it for a very long time.

Considering what you have been through, I would be very surprised if you had any good feelings for him left. I think it is much more normal for you to be numbed and indifferent. Along with very angry and resentful. That does not make you bad, not even a little.

And congratulations on your new job.

If he is to have any chance of winning your love again, Tool is going to have to work harder than he ever had in his life. Your feelings for him can come back over time, if you see him behaving in trustworthy ways 100% of the time, and if he makes a conscious effort to meet your needs. Also without expecting anything from you, because you have nothing left to give. He squandered your loving feelings for him, and has to accept that you don't have any more right now, and maybe never.

Again, there is still hope, but it all depends on him. DO NOT blame yourself if it does not work.

{{{{Stonecold}}}}

Not much progress on the M to report, but today I just got my first few articles published in the paper. Front page, above the fold!

Other than that, no good news to report. I continue to slip into extreme sadness over the whole mess. I feel very betrayed, humiliated, and disgusted all at the same time. Good thing I'm too busy to obsess, though.

[color:"blue"] C [/color] [color:"green"] o [/color] [color:"red"] n[/color] [color:"purple"]g [/color] [color:"brown"] r [/color] [color:"pink"] a [/color] [color:"green"] t[/color] [color:"orange"] i [/color] [color:"red"] o [/color] [color:"blue"] n [/color] [color:"pink"] s [/color] [color:"purple"] !!! [/color]

CONGRATULATIONS

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I never even noticed that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

(Do you think anyone else saw?)

Wow....that's great. SUPER!! AWESOME!! YIPEE!!! Very proud of u SC. Front page. Wow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Btw, I'm like Neak....ova' here we say 'congrats'! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

What a relief! I'm not a bad speller - I'm a closet Hawaiian.

Neak <--------- not a haole

(Congrations to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Neak....it gets quite HOT 'n sticky in the da' closet. Now what kinda foods can we send to coax u out? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hi everyone, I've been lurking, but haven't posted anything lately. I feel like a loser for not taking more action in ending this marriage.

After all, I drew my boundaries, didn't I? I said no more chances, didn't I? Why haven't I filed for D?

Yes, life would be he!! for me and the kids in many ways, especially financially. Yes, we'd probably have to sell the house and whatever investments we can, but so what? Doesn't it mean anything that I said I'd leave if there was another affair?

I don't get it.

My friends and family don't get it, either. I'm not returning phone calls, and avoiding my family, b/c I don't want to explain why there isn't a filing for D yet.

I need to show some spine and just do it, but I'm weak. I keep saying my kids will be heartbroken if we D, so I keep stalling.

Yes, Toolman has had a few sessions with S. Harley, and yes, he's had a few more with our regular MC. Yes, he's been reading yet another book, **edit**. So that counts as some kind of ~~~effort~~~.

~~~~shrug~~~~

It's not having ANY affect on me. I feel no good feelings, and I am ambivalent or angry or sad all the time. I don't sleep. I'm miserable.

The things that broke down in our marriage will always be there...they will not change.
WH will ALWAYS think I'm blowing all his money (snort!).
WH will ALWAYS think I'm a bi-polar nut from whom he needs to protect his children
WH will ALWAYS feel nothing but disgust about me physically, since he's now more comfortable having sex with 20 year olds who ADORE him.

What is there to work on? I do not understand my weakness in not getting out. My friends must look at me like a battered wife who keeps going back to the abuser. Someday, I hope to report that I have grown a backbone. Someday soon, I hope.

love bank is in the [color:"red"]red[/color]

hence the apathy

Pep

Apathy is the lack of emotion, motivation, or enthusiasm. Apathy is a psychological term for a state of indifference — where an individual is unresponsive or "indifferent" to aspects of emotional, social, or physical life. Clinical apathy is considered to be at an elevated level, while a moderate level might be considered depression, and an extreme level could be diagnosed as a dissociative disorder. The physical aspect of apathy associated with physical deterioration, muscle loss, and lack of energy is called lethargy — which has many pathological causes as well.

Apathy can be object-specific — toward a person, activity or environment. It is a common reaction to stress where it manifests as "learned helplessness" and is commonly associated with depression. It can also reflect a non-pathological lack of interest in things one does not consider important.

Hi All.
Nothing much to update.
It's my birthday this weekend.
42 years old.
This is NOT where I hoped to be when I hit this age.
I need to do something, but I don't know what that something is.

self pampering spa-beauty day

and

lunch-movie-drinks with dear friends who understand

laugh as much as possible, it's good for you & makes you pretty

Pep

Happy birthday.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wishing only something for you, that would make you feel better.

Happy Birthday.

I hope when your birthday rolls around next year, that you're in a much better place.

Happy birthday, I agree with Pep, spa day is in order.
dc

Thanks for kind words. Unfortunately, nothing brings me joy anymore. Spa trip would just remind me that I used to be happy, causing more unhappiness. Can't even get thru the grocery store without crying anymore. Life totally sucks. Harley keeps telling toolman that things are gonna get better, but I've never been this sad in my life. I am dead inside. I feel completely trapped and hopeless.

I felt better a month ago when I just caught toolman in his new affair. I KNEW I had what I needed to finally start my life over. Now, with Harley saying, "You just have to wait, and it will get better," I feel totally trapped. I'm so sick of this, I just don't care about anything anymore. Each day, I slip a little lower. Worst part is, if I can't snap out, I'm sure toolman will use my mood as a reason to take my kids away from me and get me committed. I just can't do anything to feel any better. Nothing works anymore. I don't even remember what it felt like to be happy.
Good thing is, I guess, if toolman is right, and I AM bipolar, I should have an upswing coming, right? Bring it on.

bipolars often respond "like magic" to mood-stabilizers

ask your Doc

Pep

PS

you're NOT bipolar

you are sad

and

exhausted

Pep

Are YOU talking to Harley? If not, how do you even know that TM is telling you the truth? What about you and your happiness?

Nothing makes a person feel depressed as much as helplessness. No wonder you feel so awful. You've got to get your fighting spirit back. How about doing just one small thing at a time to start getting some control back. As you get control, you'll start feeling better. And even tiny changes help, because you see some movement and some hope.

Just because things are this way today doesn't mean that they can't change. You don't have to take a certain course because Steve Harley or anyone else says you should. Have you talked to him and told him your side of the story and how TM has been breaking you down for years and how irrational he is about your mental state? Does Harley know how devious and manipulative TM is?

I have to get in bed, since it's past 2AM my time, but I'll check in tomorrow. Please post and let us know how you're doing. You're very bright and you're much stronger than you feel right now. You just need to get your bearings again. You've been through a lot the last few years. You'll find your way, regardless of all this turmoil.

I suppose I was invited to the last harley session, which I think was this past thursday. I didn't attend. I have given up. The only thing I promised harley in the last session that I would "protect toolman from myself" which I guess means no angry outbursts, etc. I've done that. I've done that by killing all emotions, both good and bad. No one would believe what I've swallowed emotionally, for the sake of the kids. I hope it turns out better for them than it does for me. Thanks, anyway, for asking.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hi stonecold -

I just wanted to thank you for posting - I'm home sick in bed and have just spent some time reading through your entire thread - I kept reading because in a lot of ways, your story is similar to mine. Events are similar, and feelings are similar. And I'm pretty much where you are at right now, too - wondering where to go from here....

I can relate to a lot of what you posted. My sitch is similar - nearly 2 years sleeping apart now, H's affair has ended (I think) - I don't really care anymore - kids are doing reasonably well....

Just wanted to say you are not alone....

So what is your plan? Do you intend to live like this until your children are grown?

Hi believer - I'm not sure if the question is for me or for stonecold, but since we seem to be in a similar sitch, I'll try to answer for me....

The answer is that I'm not sure. I started my own thread again - "calling still seeking" - and I'm thinking it's time for me to go get some counselling again. There's stuff I need to talk over with a priest to sort out some theological ideas - like my H seems to believe he is forgiven when he has never apologized to me...and I also feel I am ready to start dealing with emotional damage done to me by his affairs. For the past two years, I have had my back to the wall working hard at getting my boys through the hurdles they had to go through in terms of changing schools, exams, etc. I know that the received wisdom is that living in a "bad" marriage is bad for the kids. I don't deny that. But in my case, I felt the alternative would be worse for them. My kids have now gone through all the hurdles they had to go through and had both parents support to do that, without the trauma of their parents separating to deal with at the same time. I felt separating would potentially have ruined their lives, so staying together, although painful, was the better option for them.

I had stuff happen, explained on my thread, that made separation or divorce not a desirable step to take at the time I found out about H's affair. Now 2 years have gone by - during that time, I have started an MA with a view towards being able to get a better job in future. At the moment, I would not be able to support myself if I separated, and financially, life would be extremely difficult. I live in the UK, and I am American - that makes me a foreigner here and less likely to be hired if there is an English person available for the same job. The job I have, although not paid well, works out well for me in terms of hours (fits well with kids school schedule), my boss is extremely supportive of me both emotionally and professionally, and co-ordinates well with my MA program. So at the moment, I don't want to change jobs, although I would consider it in the future when I get better qualified. I tried to take my focus off my H and put my focus on doing something positive for me. I basically abandoned him emotionally, cut him out of my life. He chose to do what he did, and what he did to me, I found hard to forgive, and I am not convinced it wouldn't happen again. If he were to take the steps he needed to take to start to reconcile, I might be willing listen to him. I will say that I would like to be able to forgive him. But I've lost confidence in him and hope for any kind of a happy emotional life with him in the future.

I've had health problems this year, and I have been able to count on my H to take care of kids when I have been sick. That's a plus to living together even if our marriage is on the rocks. I'm sick today with the flu, and H has taken care of everything. I appreciate that, and I let him know. H is a difficult person, but has his good points. My strategy with H is to say thank you to him for all the things he does well, to treat him kindly and with respect, but to walk away if he is disrespectful, and to ask that he treat me with respect. For example, he interrupts me all the time, just talks over me. It's a bad habit and he doesn't make any effort to change. I stop and say "can I finish?", then I go back and repeat my whole sentence, which points out to him that he is being rude and forces him to allow me to finish a normal sentence. This is very wearing, and he doesn't like it - it makes him mad. But I used to get frightened and upset and felt very anxious about making him mad. Now I don't care if he gets mad. He gets mad when I demand respect. That's his problem. H has serious issues and this small thing is representative of them...it makes him mad to have his steamroller behaviour stopped in its tracks. He thinks I am the one with the problem, because I persist in making an issue out of it. He prefers to think I am the one with the problem. He doesn't recognize that his own behaviour is rude. He doesn't seem to have the capacity for self-reflection. He resists any attempt to put his own behaviour under scrutiny. But he is better behaved if I persist. He is like spoiled child who has been brought up without anyone making him have respect for other people. On the other hand, he is very charming, which is why I fell for him in the first place - his punishing behaviour only started after we were married.

So - my plan is to get my MA. And I've tried to keep a stable household for the sake of my kids. I live in an emotional vacuum, though - and I get very depressed at the lack of affection in my life. It's not the way I want to live forever. I have made it clear to him that despite the fact we are sleeping apart, an "open marriage" is not an option. I am not allowing myself to contemplate having an affair,although I long for affection. I have asked H what his plan is, where he sees himself in 5 years time and he says he doesn't really know - he wants to be doing the same, work he's doing now.

So - he is a WS who abandoned his marriage, but not the house, and is fulfilling his role as father and provider as best he can, without giving his wife anything she needs. Basically it sucks. I also gave up on him and am trying to focus on my own personal goals instead of investing all my energy into him. I got tired of being used. I guess you could say I'm still letting him use me - he's living here and hasn't had to pay the price of his infidelity. I'm allowing him to fence-sit. Except that he is the one who is losing. I think his affair with OW3 failed, and he has lost his self-respect. He has lost the respect of a lot of his friends and his family, which he hasn't dealt with yet. He is trying to redeem himself by working hard.

He has made some overtures that indicate he still wants his marriage - but since I still see his anger and his blaming, and he has made no moves to open up his life, confess, get counselling, or win back my trust, I know he isn't yet serious.

I'm torn between Harley's approach and what the implications are for my kids. My feeling is that Harley's approach would have had a chance to save our marriage - but the impact of separation on our kids would have been disastrous. So because I didn't go to plan B, our marriage died. Living together like this, every day, has allowed our marriage to die. We are like two of those people in arranged marriages - we respect each other but don't feel attraction for each other. I lost my admiration for him, and for me, that seemed to put the nail in the coffin - I found out I have to admire a man in order to be able to love him.

I'm back to reading Harley - his articles on sexual aversion apply to me - if I don't have any emotional feelings for him, I don't desire him. After what I've been through I don't want him to touch me - but I remember what it was like to love him, and I remember all the times I loved him touching me...I don't drink - my Dad is an alcoholic - but I feel like I know why people drink - not just to block out the bad memories, but the good ones...to block out the memories of the feelings of love and hope and dedication they once had. Those memories hurt even more than the bad ones.

So basically, I'm lonely....kinda thinking this can't go on forever, and I'm trying to come up with a plan. I'm aware that I don't really have a plan and that's what I need to do...come up with one.

My boys are 14 1/2 and 11 1/2, BTW - OS is now settled into his secondary school - has 4 more years, YS is making the transfer to secondary school in Sept - both are doing well. Both are aware that Daddy had an affair and that's why we are sleeping apart. I told them because I felt they needed some answers. I haven't told H that I told them. They were upset, but our R is now better. I told them their Dad and I couldn't afford to live apart, that if we separated, he would hardly ever be able to see them because he would have to move out of our town and he works 6-7 days a week, that I couldn't mend our marriage alone, and Daddy is convinced he doesn't love me anymore - that's just the way it is. I feel H has to take the consequences of his actions. If he loses their respect, that's his own fault. He should have thought of that before he did what he did. Someday it might come out that they know what he did - when/if it does, I will deal with it as best I can. OS was remarkably mature about it - he said it came as "no surprise" (!) and he said he thought if you kept secrets, you would always be found out in the end. YS said "but everyone tells lies" - OS countered "NO! That's exactly why you should NOT tell lies, because if you tell small lies, you think you can get away with bigger and bigger lies, and eventually it becomes a way of life!" I was very proud of OS - he really surprised me with his perceptions - ever since, he has talked to me about stuff eh thinks - he's growing up and he knows he can trust me, which is the most important thing to me. Same for YS.

I have 5 years to go before the boys are grown. the way I see it, though - then they go to university. Why do people have kids if they think they can just divorce when it doesn't work out? You find out when you start trying to do it, that there is always some hurdle your kids have to get over - and that goes on all their life....my H married because he loved me and wanted kids....to my mind he's a sick person because he betrayed everything he believed in to satisfy his own selfish compulsions, thinking he could get away with it. I know he isn't unique...

Me - I'm dying inside. Need a man to love me. I had a lot to offer and have a lot to offer, but I've changed. My next job is to try to restore my soul.

So that's the short answer... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

F4L,

I know this is going to sound harsh, but you have exactly the marriage that you want, why are you complaining. Yes, your H had an affair, and yes he is difficult, but he is not getting away with what he did. You ARE making him pay everyday you withhold from him, decide to not engage him, talk about him behind his back to YOURS and HIS boys.

If you want something different and perhaps better, why not go for it, rather than stew in your own juices? If this site offers anything it offers a path BACK, but you need to be willing to walk it, and if you are not then you really have nothing to complain about, you are using his money, and you are avoiding moving, and getting a better paying job.

Seriously, why are you doing this to yourself?

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, JL - it is harsh - but I expected something like that if I went ahead and posted here, especially from an old-timer. I have all the respect in the world for MBs, but to some extent, you simplify things here. Plan A, and if that doesn't work, plan B. God help the BS here who doesn't follow through with plan B and take the consequences. Harley also makes it clear that his approach is not for those who are married to people who have issues with alcoholism and abuse. Abuse plays a role in our marriage, but as to why that is, I am still not sure - that is one of the dark areas of our marriage - why? Was my H abused as a child? Is he autistic? Does he have a personality disorder? Possibly any and all of the above - it is impossible to tell, if H will not go for assessment, let alone treatment. And as much as you can say that divorce and separation are better in the long run for the BS and the children, I am not 100% convinced. BTW, it was you and I who helped Lisa from London out of her marriage, remember? I am Lady in Red.

As to making him pay, withholding from him, deciding not to engage with him and talking behind his back to OUR kids - it is HIM who withholds from me by keeping secrets, telling lies and witholding, it is HIM who refuses to engage with me AT ALL, and it is OUR kids who feel the effect of this refusal to engage. They deserve an explanation for his angry, punishing, difficult behaviour. You tell me what I could do better.

I removed myself from the bed where I was sleeping with an unfaithful and unrepentant spouse. I scheduled MC appts which he cancelled.

I walk away from him when he is verbally and emotionally abusive. He has been physically abusive in the past, so I walk away rather than let him "wind up". Is that what you call withholding and refusing to engage? I am the judge of what is safe for me and I handle myself with self-respect. I refuse to engage with someone who is being abusive and disrespectful. I do not get angry, rage or make sarcastic remarks with H - I treat him with respect. If he cannot treat me with respect, I walk away.

I have made numerous attempts to talk to him, to make a safe time and place available for him to talk to me - I AM available to talk with him ANYTIME - I have suggested many times that he and I talk to a priest and/or counselor. H is not willing to talk about us or himself - at all. H refuses to put himself or his behaviour under scrutiny from any outside source.

I am not MAKING him pay. He is paying the price for choosing not to deal with himself and the choices he makes in his personal life. I am aware that the arrangement looks like he is being punished. He is not being punished. He is choosing to stay where he is. I can't move out of where I am with him without him showing signs of remorse and a desire for reconciliation, which he steadfastly refuses to show. Those signs have to come from him without me telling him - they have to come from him of his own accord.


I think pursuing an MA with a view towards getting a better job in future is doing just that. And BTW, it is MY money which is paying for that, not his - a small legacy which my mother left me when she died covers the cost of my MA. I have feelings of loneliness, which I expressed.


Why did I come back to this site if I feel that plan A and plan B cannot offer me the strategy which would be helpful in saving my marriage? Especially if I knew that if I posted, I would be burned for not going to plan B. I feel extremely isolated and I needed to talk to someone who would support me going out to try to get some help - the right kind of help.


JL, I have to respectfully say that this is beneath you. I am still his WIFE. My H promised to me, along with a promise to love, honour and cherish, "all my wordly goods I thee endow". As long as we are married, his money is my money and my money is his money. I am not "living off his money". I had 2 children with my H and I am entitled to his love and support. I have supported him to achieve his goals with my hard labour, for which I was not paid. If you think staying home and taking care of 2 kids is not hard labour, think again. H and I are Catholic - marriage meant welcoming children into our lives. So having children was not just something I wanted which he resents. He loves his children as much as I do. I have health problems which are the result of my having children - if I had not had children, I would not be suffering these particular health problems, which have impaired my ability to work full-time. My H is a musician - he could not have children and function in his job unless he had a partner who would stay at home and take care of them when he had to be away - musicians aren't paid a lot - so au pairs and babysitters were out of the question.

(When I said to H that the reason he could do what he did was because I was always there for him, holding down the fort, he said "Now you're taking credit for something you haven't done!" Now that is Fog-talk for sure. When he was NOT a WS, he put his arms around me and told me how much he appreciated what I did, that he couldn't do what he did without me being there for him and the kids. When I reminded him a year ago that he had said this (after he said he had never loved me) he exploded and said my trouble was I was always bringing up the past. More fog-talk. MB is the place where I have learned how to identify and cope with fog-talk exploding in my face.)

A marriage is a shared life, a shared endeavor, where everything goes into building a life which is for the benefit of the family, not just one person. One of the issues in our marriage is money - surprise, surprise. My H is self-employed. He has his own bank account, his own credit cards. When we got married, we opened a joint bank account. Trouble was, H never put any money into it. He said he had to keep his own account because he had to pay tax on what he earned and that was the only way he could keep track of it. I put all my money into our joint bank account. When we had kids and I stopped working, H had all the money - controlled it all - I had to ask him for every penney - and he made me ask. I tried to get him to give me a household allowance - I tried to get him to sit down with me and write up a household budget - I suggested we have a joint account and give ourselves a monthly "allowance" for fun stuff. Nothing. We fought. Nothing. I finally figured out that H didn't get married, he acquired a wife. He would pay for as much as he thought he should pay for and no more. I told him once he treated me like a kept woman. There was no trust. He refused to make me a signatory on his credit card. It was only after one of our MC sessions 5 years ago, that he made any movement in my direction. Now he puts 1/3 of his salary in our joint bank account - he has made me a signatory on his credit card, and he pays for the upkeep of both cars out of "his" money. We own our house outright - his dad paid off our mortgage about 7 years ago. H puts the other 2/3 of his income in his own account. I don't see that. H tries to pay as much as possible out of our "joint account" and on the times I have asked him how much he has in his own account, he says "not much". He responsibly pays for what he SHOULD pay for. I have found his savings account book and see that he is saving money into his retirement plan. I don't make enough money to save into my retirement plan, although I have a pension plan at work. In fact, it is H who is benefiting financially from continuing to live here. The way I look at it, I contributed to his healthy financial state - by economizing well, by living within our means, by not running up any debt - if I had been paid even minimum wage for all the hours I worked as a carer of small children, I figured he would owe me more than 1/2 million bucks - that's right, girls, add 'em up and remember it's 24/7 - by excluding me from his credit cards, H robbed me of the credit I deserved for 15 years of economizing WITH him. It is only this year that I have been able to get a MasterCard in my own name, and no, I don't have any debt on it. H is economical - he's not extravagent - I always respected him for that - but I didn't drag him down either. So how does all this make me someone who is "using his money"?



Yes, I'm avoiding moving. This is my home. It may not be much compared to some, but we own it and don't have a mortgage. Why should I break up my children's home and move somewhere where I would have to pay rent, thereby shooting myself in both feet financially? House prices in the UK have gone through the roof - on average 6 times a person's salary required, with a 1-bedroom apartment costing more than £100,000 in my area. If I moved and had to pay rent, and then got sick and couldn't work, what would happen to me and my kids? I would end up homeless, that's what. My kids are settled into good schools - why should I give up our home and move because my H decided to be a plonker?

If we separate, it is H who should move. If we divorced, or separated, the courts would decide that the family home is just that - the family home - it is where the kids have lived all their lives - so it is actually the kids' home, not mine or my H's - morally neither of us have the right to sell the home out from under our children's feet, and the court recognizes this. They would make a residence order that the kids stay in the family home with their main caregiver (me) - then when the youngest child has finished his university studies, my H and I would be permitted by the court to sell the home and split the proceeds.

I have been to see a solicitor, who told me I have an open and shut case against H.

Do they grow on trees? I don't live in the US. I live in the UK - which many economists call "a low-pay economy". We have the biggest pay differential between company owners and managers and workers in Europe. My boss went to bat for me to try to win a pay raise for me - she succeeded, but it took her a year, and it wasn't much of a pay rise, but it puts me on the pay scale so that my pay will increase with time of service - I have a BA and am working on an MA, yet I am paid as much as I could earn cleaning houses...but I love my work - I'm a librarian...librarian in training, I should say...I don't plan on giving it up...I just hope that once I have my MA, that will lead to something better...I also have this fantasy that someday I might write books...but you know, lots of people think that....still, a girl can dream...

JL - your response to me doesn't surprise me. It's more or less what I expected. But thank you for it anyway - it tells me I need to reach out and try to get help, but MB is not necessarily the right place for that.

And I have remembered that I do have a plan.

H doesn't appear to want reconciliation (at the moment). The way divorce laws are in the UK, you have to file on one of 3 counts - infidelity (which is hard to prove), unreasonable behaviour (which you have to list), or marriage breakdown based on 2 years of separation. I told him my plan was to sleep apart for 2 years, then he can sue me for divorce on the grounds that our marriage has broken down, if that is what he wants. That way I don't have to sue him for adultery or list his unreasonable behaviour, which would damage his career. I told him this on the phone several months ago and he came home and came straight into the kitchen and hugged me. I guess that is what he wants. September will be 2 years - we'll have to see what happens after that.

I am also reading and working with Steven Stosny's book "You Don't Have to Take it Anymore", which is the only book I've read which has "rung all my bells". Chapter 4 - Why Marriage Counseling, Psychotherapy, Anger-Management, and Abuser Treatment Made it Worse is the one that made perfect sense to me. My plan, which Stosny recommends, is to read it yourself, then give it to him and respectfully ask him to read it. I haven't got to this stage yet.

I have also been doing some reading on autism and Aspergers Syndrome - some of what I have read on those discussion forums seems to REALLY fit my H - his relationship difficulties don't fit into the cabbage-variety abusive man syndrome - he reacts badly to ANY "negative" feelings I have, i.e being sick, being under stress, being tired, experiencing grief - in other words, he can't handle my negative feelings - he feels overwhelmed and reacts badly, i.e., he withdraws, shuts off, and if I get upset by that, he explodes. He is also brilliant in his work and totally focused on that to the exclusion of everything else, which is a feature of Aspergers. One part of my plan is to find a way to get him to accept some kind of psychological assessment. This might not be the best thing for him, though - a late diagnosis might send him into a deep depression and cause more despair - it would, however, prove to him that *I* am not the SOLE cause of our communication difficulties. I have also thought of getting psychological testing for myself - to find out if I have any of those traits myself. One of the things that happens in a relationship like ours is that you tend to mirror each other and after awhile, it gets difficult to tell who is responsible for what.

I'd just like to quote you something from Stosny's book -

"When therapists ARE aware that their clients are walking on eggshells at home, they feel almost bound to persuade the woman to leave the relationship. The most frequent complaint I hear from women who have undergone this kind of advocacy therapy is that they were reluctant to reveal the depth of their guilt, shame and fear of abandonment to their disapproving therapists. Some have reported that their counselors would say things like, "After all he did to you, and you feel GUILTY?" I have heard hundreds of women report this kind of pressure from their therapists and have heard hundreds of therapists at conferences express exasperation about their clients' reluctance to leave their walking-on-eggshells relationships. While training therapists worldwide, I always emphasize the utter necessity of compassion for their clients' burden of guilt. Making hurt women feel ashamed of their natural (albeit irrational) feelings of guilt is intolerably bad practice. Compassion for her core hurts is the healthy way to help her heal her pain."

I have been reading MB for five years. In 2001-2002, when I first came here, there was a spirit of compassion on this board and people more or less respected Harley's precepts, which included not engaging in DJ's to posters, even if they were a WS, or you were disgusted by some of the things they did or said. From what I have seen, a lot of that has changed. There is an awful lot of sarcasm on this board now, in addition to all the good that people try to do for each other. Part of my job is being aware of what goes on in cyberspace, and the growth of cyberspace - five years is a long time in cyberspace, and IMO, cyberspace has changed. Cyberspace is now full of people who are not just there to share, but who are there to look for conflict - many discussion boards out there are places where people go looking for arguments - post anything to Youtube, etc and at some point, someone is going to flame you. That's one of the things that I think has happened to MB - while by and large, this is still a site where people who are in pain over their marriage breakdown can find valuable support and knowledgeable guidance in finding their way through the most difficult period in a person's life, it has also picked up some of the nastier characteristics of cyberspace today. I've seen some nasty flaming posts to WS which have made my toes curl.

I'm not lumping you in that category, JL - I "know" you and know just how thoughtful you are as a poster, and how sincere your intention is to help others, but be careful. It's sometimes a fine line between calling someone on their *hit and missing the point. Some of your comments were hurtful but I understand why you said them. I'm aware that staying in my marriage is my decision. It's a decision I have to be prepared to defend while I stay in it. You've helped me to do that, for which I am grateful.

I am trying to recover myself without destroying H, and protecting my children's future. Maybe what I needed to find out was that MB isn't the place for me to do that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

stonecold,

I have to admit I never followed you in your previous screen name. I thought you had a good support group then and I had my own issues (as I still do). But now you truly have my sympathy. Maybe because "but for the grace of God...". I don't know. But what are your options really?

Oh, and I DO like tools so you H can't be ALL bad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't know what it is. One day I guess I just decided to wake up different. I shouldn't have had to. That part is a bit sad. But my DDs are so happy - it rubs off.