Perhaps another biblical example that Christians grappling with this situation can draw upon would be that of King David. Not only did David have an adulterous relationship with Bathsheba that resulted in the birth of a child, he set it up so that his close and loyal friend (Bathsheba's husband) would be killed in battle in order to cover their sin. Some come right out and say David murdered the man. After Uriah's death, David married Bathsheba (the OW and WW) and their son (OC) was born. Now this son died, and scripture makes it clear that the child's death was somehow related to his parents' adultery. It was at the point just prior to the child's death that David came to grips with his sin, confessed it, and mourned it even as he mourned the loss of his son. He accepted the principle that sin has consequences that can often be IMPOSSIBLE for people to right, and his soulful prayer of repentance is recorded in Psalm 51.

Bathsheba and David remained married and went on to have another son who became none other than King Solomon himself - known as the wisest man to ever live, remembered for the glorious temple he built in Jerusalem, and recorded in the lineage of Jesus. And David? Despite his moral failure and the ongoing family chaos that followed it, he is immortalized as "a man after God's own heart".

What this biblical account says to me is this:
1) Others suffer as a result of our willful choice to sin. It is a natural consequence put into motion by our hellbent nature.
2) Even so, the God of the Bible is a God of the second chance when a person acknowledges and repents of his sin. Scriptural illustrations of this abound (check out the whole mess with Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar or of Saul who became Paul) as they do in personal observation. I believe both sin and redemption of it can occur either before or after a person's coming to faith, and in David's case, his adultery and restoration happened after he had identified himself as a follower of God.
3) While we are often unable to right a situation that occurs as a result of our sin, God is able to "restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten" (Joel 2:25) even when the locusts were unleashed by our very own actions.

Perhaps people were trying to explain this principle of the consequence of sin to Jilly. Like the prophet Nathan who helped David come to the point of repentence, perhaps this was what folks were trying to do. Sometimes it is necessary to have a "Nathan" in our lives who will dare to point out the sin we so want to hide. Although I think many responders tried to be gentle, perhaps the part that was less emphasized was the part about redemption. It is complex and difficult and sometimes beyond our human understanding of God's economy. But is it not the part that enables us all to become children of the living God? And is it not the only thing that will bring true restoration?

MAzingrace

Darth remains an active unrepentant WS...That is not who he was, it is who he became and has chosen to remain...

For him to be truly repentant, IMO, he would have to divorce the wistress...

Mrs. W

And exactly how does one define an adulterous relationship?

Some might say ANY relationship outside the first marriage is adulterous. That doesn't bode well for all these second marriages out there...

To lawfully married people who became so after a lawful divorce...doesn't strike me as an adulterous relationship.

Just my opinion

Excuse me, LO.

Were we not discussing "AFFAIR-BASED" 2nd+ marriages only? I know I was.

As a matter of fact, according to some in the church, it doesn't matter...

Per strict interpretation, if a man divorces his wife becasue she was unfaithful...he cannot remarry without becoming an adulterer himself.

Not that I ascribe to that viewpoint.

What we have here is that we all want to apply our own standard of what is accpetable and what isn't. We're free to express that...and JJ can choose from the advice she's given and leave the rest.

I, for one, believe that all who want help should get it...even Darth's WIFE...and Darth himself should he desire to revert to Anakin. It does NOT betray JP to give it.

VnusMars would be a good one to contribute to this discussion, unfortunately. After great loss and pain, both to himself (his exBW and his WWexaffair partner, they have learned the hard way that it just isn't any good to start out that way.

If however they reconcile, I would hope that they would receive all the help and support they need to make a go of it this time around.

I do believe he has changed and learned a very, very painful lesson.

Surely no one would forever hold past mistakes against him and his exWWaffairpartner, would they?

How in the world could that be considered right?

Tough subject, touches people in places with deep wounds for sure, but we are tough now, are we not?

When I counceled with S.Harley, he did not judge me or say my R was condemned and worthy of only dissolution, he tried to help me even though I think he knew it was doomed.

The people here tried to help me with the R in some ways I think, but I know that they knew also the R was doomed and were really trying to help me get to a place where I could recover on my own and possibly move on.

I'm glad for the people who put aside their personal uncomfortableness with my sitch and made me feel safe here, they have literally helped me to change my life.

Hopefully, I am in a place good enough now where I will not hold self-ritiousness and old wounds in the way of offering the same help to someone else.

Not sure I am ready for that though, so I am trying hard to stay clear of helping anyone out in their R at all for now.

new-beginnings,

I can't imagine you ever being attacked because your sencerity is so easy to read.

Orchid: Still waiting for clarification to this question.

quote]IWRA,

JJ's responses were pretty much based on her account. She stated her M was A based. The fact that it is going south now, has taken no one by surprise.

If she wants to save anything, she has t/d the work. The extra guilt comes from where the M stemmed from....the A.

See how it follows and comes around? That means that Jilly's A is going to have an effect on her recovery personal and M wise.

I believe that was being pointed out to her and that may have scared her off. But if she is really interested in recovery, she has to face that fact and work with it.

Does she have a place here? Of course....well if she truly is willing to do what it takes to recover. Her's may have a few extra steps because she and her OM skipped those vital steps at the beginning by having the A.

So I don't see a backlash here. I see someone who wants to be a few steps farther down the road than she currently is.

That's no reason to leave....that's all the more reason to stay and tough it out.

[/quote]

Orchid: Yea, I pasted my last post because I see a long discussion still going in 2 different directions: To post or not to post.

While that's ok to have discussions you all may need to realize that Jilly is paying for her bad decision to marry a OM. Now she is asking for help. In some ways similar to when an OW comes here.

We have had OWs here in the past. We have Xws here now. We have Xws who were divorced and remarried some even to the OM and such has been declared. So why is Jilly's thread different? Why has this thread angered and hurt so many POVs?

IMHO, Jilly wants a fix without fixing herself 1st. A shortcut. In Jilly's case like in any OW married to the OM, fixing takes longer because the trust was lost on BOTH sides due to the A. Remember the fog. The A created the Fog, the D happened in the fog, marriage to the WS/OM was created in the fog and only NOW may the fog be lifting.

Does that kind of person need help? May it take a bit more effort to get her to the same level of reasoning that has helped so many of us? Yes.

Now here's the devil advocate's question: R we trying to mold Jilly into OUR way of thinking?

Honest answer: NO.

If Jilly or anyone posts here it s/b because they have a sincere desire to learn and grow. For those who come here without that sincere desire, they will fight, create the chaos they thrive, then if we do NOT pay attention or give into their chaos, they move on. We've seen it before.

Right now Jilly borders between sincere help and chaos. Why? Because she is still coming out of the fog. Do we help her? We should. Is helping her going to push our MB skills to limits? It could.

If it is too hard for some due to current issues in their lives, ok. You don't have to help. Maybe later you can read about it and find some learning points. No biggie. No bad marks.

Remember no one is keeping score here. No need to. This is a support and learning place. Let me tell you, just from what I have read here I have learned a lot. I have seen a lot and the support has helped more, much more than we all know. People come here, post and some leave in the midst of their personal crisis then come back, Why? Because they know where they can get support.

Now I will tell you that one thing I have found this board does NOT support is an OP who comes here to try and justify or squeeze OP philosophies into MB. Sometimes it appears someone is doing that. But the tests of time and the wise direction of posters who are using their skills (mb and others) helps weed those out.

So will Jilly return? That's up to her? Should she? IMHO, she should BUT that's up to her. Remember it is her future and we don't have control over it.

If she asks for help and we can give it, then help. If it hurt too much, then don't.

If she gets it fine. If she don't, who cares? My life is not going to change and it is waaay to hard to hang around MB if you don't want to learn.

The winner here c/b Jilly and her current family. The loser here c/b Jilly and her current family.

Ours s/b lending or giving support if we can. On the side we can be learning.

JMHO,
L.

Why stop there, why not even support the OM, OW and WSes active in affairs to get to the point of those affair based-marrriages. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

My eyes are getting a bit tired of rolling. Think I'll bow out of this thread as its becoming somewhat un-productive in nature.

Agreed. The sin is wrong. All sins are wrong. When we repent of that sin and change our ways, we are forgiven. THIS does not mean what was done somehow becomes right? Repent means we ACKNOWLEDGE we were wrong and AGREE with God that we WERE in sin. Repent means we TURN from that sin. It still WAS sin and always will be sin, but...when you repent you turned away from your sin. And there will ALWAYS be consequences for our sin....even when we repent.


Again...adultery IS ALWAYS wrong.



Agreed.

To suggest that a person needs to divorce to PROVE they are repentant...??? I don't understand that reasoning. God hates divorce. Does divorcing make it right? God is a God of forgiveness.

Excellent post Orchid! Wow, wow, wow you always amaze me.

Don't stop, Res...you just helped me make my initial point...

We help people WHERE THEY ARE to do what best for them.

I don't think many here believe that helping an OM, OW or WS perpetuate an affair is the best thing for them WHERE THEY ARE.

But, if they come here 5 years down the road after having married the OP and having two kids...they are in a different place...

We help them WHERE THEY ARE.

Many here appear to disagree about what that help should look like...I have my opinion...you have yours...that's ok.

And BTW LO, it would be Just Peachy who would decide whether or not it was betrayal, no one else.

Kudos, Orchid...very good post

NON-PC post warning


A married 'BS' looking for help here is like a bank robber asking the same bank for investment advice for his new stash IMO, or complaining when somebody else steals the money they stole.

Just because the robber got away with it does NOT legitimise the money as his.

Just because they married does not legitimise their marriage IMO.

Regarding their 'recover' I quoted real stats to justjilly. affair marriges don't work because proven cheaters who got their own way through cheating almost CERTAINLY cheat again. That behaviour was never repented nor adjusted.

Am I on my moral high horse here ? Darn tootin' I am. If I was one of the ex spouses of JJs situation and I found out she got a taste of her own medicine I'd be laughing my socks off. Really. I pray the kids are hurt as little as possible considering their parents behaviour.

Thanks Orchid.
I love the way you can go right to the core of things.

And thanks LowOrbit for standing for what you believe in.
And for reminding me that any Darth that ever reverts to Anakin is worth it all..

Bob,

U mean a married WS, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Recompense is a little used tool to help victims. So if an OP and Ws marry creating a 3rd family and one of them turns around..... there is a lot of work for them t/d. Recompense of sorts w/b needed. Yep, forgivness would have to be obtained from those they (WS/OP) robbed.

If they are willing to walk that hard road, then it s/b offered to them. Now who helps them is up to us individually and NO they should NOT expect a handout.

Only those that can help can help. Those that can't, shouldn't but one is not better than the other for it.

I'll give an example. If Jilly was PBR, I'd have to bow out. PBR has done grave damage to myself and my family and friends. To this day I don't see any positive actions from the PBR. She may have married and changed her name but that does NOTHING for the damage she helped create with the then WS. Yet if PBR came to this board, with the correct attitude, I believe some would help her and yea.....it w/b hard for me but I would have to keep my trap shut.

Time will tell if sincerity is real. Those who live a lie can't pretend amongst those who have dealt with such liars 1st hand. Too many here on the watch.

What I sense is Jilly still hasn't made that switch yet, so for now, the ball is in her court.

Btw, when someone in that mode posts here. I find it useful to help. In all cases, those who don't want the help will go away....eventually.... you all remember SNL? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO....again.
L.

There are are few great points in here from the man himself.




There’s a new sheriff in town!
#1278145 - 04/22/02 09:33 PM
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A long time ago, our Marriage Builders community began with a newly created discussion board program which allowed individuals to come together at a time in their life where support, understanding, and encouragement was a must. In this young community, I was responsible for keeping the peace. If a member of the community lost sight of what our laws were and could not bring their comments under control, then I would be forced to step in and point out the rules and policies of our community that they had agreed to follow when they registered to become a member. In the rare case when the renegade member would refuse to commit to their promise, I would then be left with no other choice but to remove them from the community so that others would again feel safe.

In the early days, administrative responsibilities mainly consisted of taking care of programming errors found in the software or helping new internet users get around the discussion board. The community continued to grow and so did the need for help. Soon, I brought deputies into the community, mainly to help with the new members, but occasionally they were also needed to keep the peace.

Life in the Marriage Builders community was relatively calm, safe, and a sought after place of refuge. Sure there was an ebb and flow as new individuals learned how to express themselves in a respectful way, learned more about their own situation, and as they developed and followed their plan. But for the most part there was a general sense of community.

My deputies of the community were more than capable of handling most of the issues that would come up because each one had a clear and deep seeded desire to see this community thrive. Their skillfulness in caring for our members created a stable environment where I felt my presence was somewhat unneeded for the community to function. This allowed me to dedicate my time to develop other resources for couples.

Even with limited options at their disposal, my deputies were able to address and handle the demands made upon them. And the community continued to thrive.

Unfortunately, times have changed.

Our community has grown to over 20,000 registered members, with countless more visitors who have chosen not to make their presence known. Our server generates more than 1.5 million page views each month and that’s just for our discussion board community alone. The past years have been an amazing period of growth.

However, what has been sad to witness is that some members of the community have failed to honor their commitment to following the rules and policies of the community and have willfully sought out to hurt and discourage other members of the community; members who are simply looking for support while learning about concepts and ideas that they feel will ultimately help them with their problem. This has typically occurred with a new member who is clearly here for the wrong reasons. But, from time to time has been experienced with a member who has been a part of the community for more than a few weeks.

What’s worse is that the amazingly dedicated volunteer deputies try to step in and address the renegade member, but when the member is unwilling to comply to redirection or continues to break their commitment to community rules, the deputies are only left with frustration because they cannot remove the offensive member. Only I, the Sheriff, can do that. And since the Sheriff is off doing other things, the time it takes for something to be done to address the problem can painfully create casualties within the community leaving other members also concerned about their own safety.

For that I am deeply sorry. I have been made aware of how a greater presence is needed by the Sheriff and a quicker response time is required so that the Marriage Builders community can become the safe, supportive, and great place it used to be. Although I am sorry for my absence, devoting more time to the community has not been presented as an option at this time.

Enter the new Sheriff!

The solution to our dilemma is the placement and introduction of our new Sheriff, Tempest. She is the original Deputy (Moderator) and has long been a well-known, respected, and skilled peacekeeper in our community. For the most part, Tempest has been carrying out the same responsibilities as the Sheriff for quite a while now. But as a Deputy, she has not had the access to the resources needed to actually be the Sheriff. Now she does. This will provide the community a greater sense of administrative involvement and support.

With the new Sheriff, what should you expect? First, I’d like to clear up some issues that have become quite cloudy over the years.

The Marriage Builders Discussion Forum is a PRIVATELY owned and funded community, which is owned and funded by Marriage Builders, Inc. Marriage Builders, Inc. defines the rules and policies that are to be followed in order to become and remain a member of the Marriage Builders community. In other words, if you believe that the discussion board is a public forum where free speech is a right to be exercised as you wish and that you can express yourself without any regard to how your words will affect other members, then you are grossly mistaken.

The Marriage Builders Discussion Forum is a private community open to only those who are willing to commit to following the rules and policies presented in the registration process. Noncompliance with these rules and policies is not an option.

Compliance with the rules and policies in no way means that you have to be in complete agreement with all Marriage Builders concepts and beliefs. However, keep in mind that this is the Marriage Builders site. If you have questions about how our concepts work, then that is fine. Post your questions. Wait for a response. Then carry on the discussion without any disrespectful judgments. Just know that criticizing someone else’s perspective because it is currently different than yours will not be tolerated.

Where is the line that separates a respectful discussion and a disrespectful discussion? If you’re not sure, then I strongly recommend that you start by using other members’ perspectives regarding your actions.

Who ultimately determines whether or not a member is adhering to the rules and policies for membership in the community? The Sheriff and the deputies. They will make the final judgments about the given issue and handle it in a way they deem appropriate. Although in most cases, you will be notified if you are in violation because of a post you’ve made, please understand that it is not a requirement to be notified before an action is taken against you. In some cases, action against an offending member must be carried out immediately in order to reestablish a safe environment and sorting out the true nature of the offense will be discussed later.

In the event you feel that you’ve been suddenly restricted from posting or even removed from the community altogether, then it is your responsibility to contact Tempest or a Moderator of the primary forum on which you’ve been posting and ask them to help you understand their perspective of what you’ve done. Do not allow yourself to believe that it is anyone else’s responsibility to come to you and explain your offence. If someone does however, look at it as a service to you in helping you understand someone else’s perspective of your actions, rather than someone else’s responsibility to inform you.

You will find that our peacekeepers are extremely forgiving. Removing restrictions or reestablishing membership does not require begging, pleading, or groveling. All you need to do is apologize for the damage your post has caused and explain what you will be doing differently to keep future discussions safe.

Remember, membership to the Marriage Builders community is a privilege, not a right.

With the new Sheriff present you can look forward to a more immediate response time in taking care of issues ranging from “I can’t seem to log in.” to removing a member from the community. I predict Tempest will see to it, one way or another, that the community is running as it should.

I ask that you welcome Tempest to her new role as Administrator. Keep in mind that she is volunteering her own time in an effort to help create and maintain a place for support in a time when support is needed the most.

As for me, I guess I’ll be the Marshal.

God bless.

Steve
[b][/b] [u][/u]

When children are involved, it seems to me that issues of infidelity have to take a back seat. It's not the kids' fault they're the children of a badly-formed marriage. It doesn't benefit any of us to punish the children for their parents' mistakes. It does benefit us to help the kids grow up in a healthier environment from here on in.

As Orchid said, marriages that begin in As are burdened with a bunch of baggage right from the start, and the xOP spouses have to do a heap of work just to get the 'standard' starting line. If they don't get that, they're looking for advice we can't give - this isn't a Get-your-man-home-in-20-days-or-your-money-back-workshop, with tips and hints and cute tricks.

An xOPBS (the acronyms get painful, don't they?) needs to think first and foremost what they're teaching their kids about marriage, fidelity and honesty...and what they really want them to be learning. This means an awful lot of work on themselves...an awful lot of painful, guilty work. Asking them to do that is unavoidable.

TA

Back_Again, great post.

I think that makes it clear to everyone.

What has been bothering me lately is a self appointed group who feel they have the last say on anything and everything that happens on MB.

It's changed the mood of the board a lot lately and not in a good way.

I have emailed justjilly to come here and tell her story when she returns from vacation.

There have been some wonderful messages to her and I think she will feel blessed that so many people DO care about the survival of her marriage and her family unit.

It is my understanding that they have been married for about 10 years. She has children with him but none from her first husband.(Her first H re-married and divorced again.)

I don't know if her NOW husband was married before or not...I think not. She can fill us in when she gets back.

Here is a quote from justjilly:

"GOD forgives everyone no matter what their sins are
if they repent. GOD doesn't lead us to act in a manner of nonforgivemess.

God is patient and kind.

I pray that my husband's A is over because I love him and I know he loves me. He is a good man.

He is very remorseful and having a hard time forgiving himself.

I learned from my own A never to put myself in that kind of position again.

I have not ever cheated on him and I never will."