Bob,

I’m pretty new here and haven’t posted much, but I must tell you that when I first found this site, it was some of your posts that helped me more than you will ever know. I hope you will reconsider and remain here so that those that follow me will have the benefit of your wisdom and experience.

I feel exactly the same way about affair marriages as you do, but the question has come up of forgiveness…IMHO, the problem has to do with who is doing the forgiving and who is being forgiven. We are commanded in the bible to forgive as we have been forgiven. We are also told to “turn the other cheek”, “forgive 70 times seven”, and give our shirt to someone who demands our coat….In all of these cases, we are the ones doing the forgiving of someone who has wronged us. I don’t think it is up to us to forgive someone for something they have done to hurt someone else. It isn’t our job to forgive them.

That said, it also isn’t our job to punish them for their transgressions. The bible speaks often of forgiveness following repentance. The word repent has been said to denote a “turn around”, but could also be said to mean “change in thinking”, literally, “to think again” (on second thought). I think it is possible for someone who had an A to come to terms with what they have done, after it is too late to redeem their original M, and to realize that their actions were wrong, ask (and receive!) forgiveness from original S, and commit to making their new M what the first one could have been, even though the current M was originally based on a lie and deception.

The problem we face is this; we don’t know and can’t know, the heart of the people posting on this site. The bible doesn’t tell us to forgive on someone else’s behalf, but does tell us that sins can be forgiven. David had an A with his neighbor’s wife and even had him killed, and yet, God calls David “a man after mine own heart.”

God also ordered Hosea to marry an unfaithful women, who had multiple As, resulting in children being born that were not his. But at the end, Hosea goes and gets his wife and tells her that she is to return home and be his wife, with all the benefits of such. It is clearly used as a metaphor to describe the WS, the nation God had called to be His. It is also a lesson in forgiveness, since it was each of us that God has forgiven, and because of what I’ve been forgiven, I have much to forgive in others.

I’m not asking that you “forgive” those that are in affair marriages, since that isn’t your job. I ask only that you consider the possibility that some of those marriages may in fact now be considered legitimate in God’s eyes…and I don’t think I can argue with Him.

Bottom line, I ask you not to leave, since you are of great value here. I don’t expect you to accept these folks at face value, but they are all around us in the outside world and we just ignore them when we can. For those that follow, try to do so in here…JMO

Reminds me of a story my bro told me.

He was working in retail. Somebody came in and stole a laptop computer from the store, then the next week sent in their brother with the thing to ask for warrantee service. They arrested both of them.

A stolen relationship is no more worthy of support than that.

-AD

Hey Pinky,

Get off your own damn high horse, western thinking, "intellectual" ways. Not everyone here is a Christian.

However, the 1st marriage is the legitimate one. The one in which we made a vow to be faithful, for better of for worse, for richer or poorer til death do us part.

I am no Christian, nor am I sucked into your pseudo-intellectual "liberalism." (I am actually a radical Doaist with Thoreauian tendancies) Marriage is a contract. Breaking it is unethical, but not unforgivable. Being the person that helps violate that contract is immoral.

An A marriage is a farce.

Pardon?
*************edit********

MODERATOR...MOD PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD. IT IS NOT HELPING NOR MARRIAGE BUILDING ANYMORE.

DO NOT FEED THE SHARK HERE NOR THIS THREAD.

OOooh. Somebody has a dictionary.

Thorstein,

My liberal friends would shudder to hear me be called liberal.

What is your position anyway?


I'm very glad you have it all figued out in a month...Makes me want to stay...Just for balance... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hehehe.

Socially liberal. Governmentally conservative: "The government that governs least, governs best."

I am anarchist in the sense of Henry David Thoreau. When you think about it, we really do live in anarchy. Every day, billions of humans go about their daily lives without committing crimes. We never notice them because they are doing nothing wrong. We only notice the ones who cut us off in traffic, or engage in an A with a married person.

Yet we pass by them on the road, and they are the ones driving "normally." None of us need laws. Laws are only for people who break them. I know killing is wrong. I need a law to tell me it is illegal?

And, no I haven't figured it all out in a month. Rather, I love being here because I can give advice and usually I am telling myself the same thing. I haven't fixed my M yet, but I am hopeful (and stumbling).

ANyway, it is late, and I need sleep.

Goodnight all - except Pinky.

Hehehehe

I know a long word too...

ultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

from a spelling bee in seventh grade.

Hey Tow truck...look that up in your funk n wagnalls!

I wanted to say...

If affair marriage people come here, and they are now betrayed, does this not show fragile BS's how the problems the WS was running from, takes with them, when the marry their OP?

I don't see it happen very often...and when it does, it has an extremely high failure rate. Isn't that like taking small percentage and a smaller one? That's truth...BS's seeing this actually happening can be a comfort. A confirmation.

And what we say here, that no matter what happens, following the Harley's guide will give a BS the knowledge they learned, grew and did all they could so that whatever the future holds for them, they will not recreate because they aren't taking the problems with them.

Assuming all BS's will be hurt and harmed further seeing an affair marriage partner helped, down the line...maybe after, say, eight years...is choosing one POV; when there could be others.

I still stick with individual choice and not assuming anything...

LA

these women, who are in an affair marraige and come here feeling as though they have a "right" to be here.....who have no care, concern or regard for the feelings...the pain...of the many hurting BS here

i can see how these women are STILL the women who felt that they had a "right" to take someone else's H.....and had no regard for the feelings of the BS

don't you all see it???

they feel they are entitled, they feel their relationship with the WS is "special...different...unique"

they haven't changed at all of they would have too much respect for the feelings of the BS in pain to come here

they don't care who they hurt to get what they want

they will end up being a betrayed wistress Eav.

Betrayed.

if they'll DO IT WIT U...THEY'LL DOIT 2 U!

stats done lie...

Evening LA,

I see you have recovered your marriage. Thats a very wonderful thing. God's blessed you and your family with a recovered marriage and I know you, not unlike me, worked very hard at it.

So I need to ask, you draw your experience from being betrayed, divorced and then experiencing your ex-H marry the OW from where again?

I can tell you first hand it feels like being betrayed all over again, knowing my ex-H and his OW (wife) can saunter on in here and get support by simply "claiming" they are repentant "Christians".

OW claimed it, being Christain that is, when she was pursuing my then-H ... and this Christain woman harrassed me while I was in stage3 cancer treatments, calling me a cancerous c_nt on my answering machine (a woman I had never met).

Seems lots of folks get quite a bit of mileage out of using the label "Christian" without backing it up with actions, and people seem to buy into it. How exactly does that happen.

Jo

Jo,

I am drawing my experience from remembering what it was like to see my WH with another woman...to have the possibility of him divorcing me, marrying her...and wishing mightily that she betray him, too...or vice versa. To see the turmoil and pain be in their marriage, to have her feel what I was feeling.

It is real...watching all those people who remarry, divorce, remarry, divorce...four, five times...and to have someone here who proves the rule...even after seemingly sauntering...they get crushed, wake up, get real...and I do not believe we posters save marriages...partners do. We advise, make the effort, share ourselves...we are not magical or gods...

We cannot fix anything.

We can connect, if allowed; influence, if allowed. Limited.

And by doing so, we can further find our own way, realize our own stuff and help our marriages by helping ourselves.

My heart aches for what you went through...seems to me to be the ultimate abandonment and not only was your marriage robbed, raped...but your spirituality as well.

I can't speak for any other Christian here...at all. I'm not sure others believe I'm one...that's their business, not mine.

And I do know of what you speak...I was raised with a father who would cheat, get drunk and repent (confession) every Saturday...no matter what. Cleansed. I got that early. I remember.

What I believe is no affront to you...no act of harm, attack or dismissal. I value who you are today immensely. I am grateful you have survived everything to be here, right now. I really am.

I cannot judge others to know if they're real or not; Christian or not. I gave up judgment. What I can know, eventually, is whether I've been duped, lied to...and this takes awhile.

I really do see all of us as separate...I don't make you hurt. You don't make me hurt. You sure can feel it, deeply. So can I. And equal. Our actions are separate from selves...because then, we live in choosing our lives, making our full amends, doing the work, and change.

If this were not so, I would be dead to life...a shell...a walking human wrecking ball...with no hope.

LA

Christian is a catch all. My xfil calls himself one. He has had FIVE AFFAIRS...at least on my xmil. He probably is the guy who taught my xh cheating marriage principles in the first place. He is a deacon.

Sometimes faith is used for justifications. 911 is a perfect example of faith being twisted and contorted so badly that some idiots believe God wants them to fly a plane into some buildings killing thousands b/c it is "holy". go figure.

But plenty of people will twist and contort faith to SERVE THEIR PURPOSES.

and if they can convince the STALWART believers..spin it so much with the fake repentances at a church into blessing their unholy unions...then we need to seriously pick our churches carefully.

I am relentless. I was relentless when I knew the OW was pressuring immediatley for marriage when my divorce was imminent..within days. I knew she was laying the heat on my very WH. He was miserable. HE ACTUALLY WENT GREY...she was threatening paternity stuff...custody stuff...BEFORE the baby was born. She is a manipulative witch. And she's gettin' what she deserved.

I called the church she was a member of...HUUUUGE MEGACHURCH here in atl. I talked personally to the pastor. I informed her of her pregnancy and urgency to marry my STILL LEGAL H. He was mortified and shocked. I asked him to take a stand and NOT MARRY THEM. He agreed.

I called a few other churches in their "denomination range". I offered to send the pastors my legal docs showing and naming the other women, and the fact in the docs it stated one ow was preggers, and asked them to not further undermine the sacred vow of marriage and marry these two adulterers..shameless adulterers.

They had to get a justice of the peace to marry them.

Oh woe is OW! She actually last summer, when she was crying to me begging me to forgive HER of her lying cheating and deliberate pregnancy...said to me last summer...Yea it's not fair peach. YOU got the big wedding. YOU got the showers. YOU got all that. I didn't get any of that. I said "I know FV. I made sure you didn't". She swore at me and then got angry. She then said...well I did want it didn't I? Me: You worked really hard girl for it too. And you are sadly reaping it.

I actually did forgive her. And when she found the money train was leaving the station? She forewent ALL THE REPENTANCE...SHE IS BACK TO BEING EVIL AND VINDICTIVE AND JEALOUS OF ME! Oh well. at least we know where we stand huh? I am never moved. AT least I tried to forgive her. She was soooo shocked when he did it to her. What did the idiot think? And when she did the fake repentance? It was not real...IT WAS IN CASE SHE NEEDED AN ALLY IN COURT...she could call in the former BW to say what a cad my xh/her H is!

It is the MOTIVE of the OP that is wrong. They come cryin' here b/c it's not working out. What'dya think einstein? That THE WS WILL CHANGE FOR YOU?

Here's how I see it.

If your M is truly shotty. No sf. No communique. No shared time or hobbies. Totally separate lives.

Then do the HONORABLE THING FOLKS! DON'T CHEAT...GET HONEST! Tell your spouse you ain't happy! See if something can be done. Try counseling...what could it hurt? TRY MB. It could save your family and your entire future.

If that doesn't work...then separate and amicably divorce. PLEASE DO THAT!

WHy can't people just do that. If their lives are SOOO MESSED UP...why DO THEY MESS IT UP EVEN MORE AND CREATE CHAOS, BURN BRIDGES AND BREAK UP FAMILIES AND CREATE BAD BLOOD? WHY....IT IS ALL PREVENTABLE. Men keep the flies zipped. Girls...keep (as my favorite aunt and grandma says)..."keep your skirt down and your pants up and you'll never get into any trouble"...

it's a mcdonald's society we are in. INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

and adultery? In the end...we find the real truth. AFFAIR PARTNERS ARE IN IT FOR THEMSELVES...NOT FOR THE OP. if they were they'd truly care for their lives..their families....their kids...and they'd want to vomit at the fallout from their actions. INSTEAD WE SEE THE REALITY...more propegation of the lie. More propegation of the ME stuff.

I kinda think it's funny now that my xh sends me risque emails as he did 2 days ago...imagine...my xh WANTING HIS BETRAYED WIFEY TO BE HIS OW! how wrong is that? I will smile and have my knowing smile when the wistress is around at my ds's birthday party pretending she wants to be there...and yes...I LOVE THE FACT I FREAK HER OUT! If I were an OW, I'd freak me out too! I am the kinda BW the OW on "that" board are scared sheottless of!

can we say "peach aint' gonna go there?"???????

I don't want a WS. I want a REAL MAN.

I'm sure we both know that a "possibility" compared to actually living it are not the same.

Thank you for your response, LA. I sincerely wish you and your husband continued happiness.

Love,
Jo

Bob

I don't know if I am wise enough to answer or address Bob's concerns.
I try to support those who seem to want save a M in the spirit that the Harleys created this site. I hope I do that when I feel I can.

as for dying on the hill Bob, remember a famous quote



you can't win all the battles Bob, sometimes you need to step back and let those who don't see their past & present behaviour has changed little hit the bottom. They may or may not learn from it.
Perhaps all they can do about the past is let the previous BS know they are genuinely sorry for causing pain, theres probably little else they can do or little that the previous BS even wants from them. But its a start isn't it?

sad to see you go Bob, hope you keep in contact, you have helped us you know over the last year or so.

Jo,

Not all BS are having your experience, either. They all have the possibility of the experience.

LA

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

That's how an A-marriage is launched .... marriage to a wandering spouse

sick from the start

Pep