Hi all

Some of you may know me. Most won't. That's cool.

There have been lots of changes on these boards in my two years here, some good, but most bad IMO.

Lately there has come a change that I cannot, in good conscience, tolerate. That is the toleration of affair marriages here.

I am a BS well into recovery yet am stung and offended greatly by what I consider to be the inflammatory and entitled presence of affair-married WS and OPs on these boards. An affair marrige was the very antithesis of good when I was at my lowest point back in '04 : only FWS telling me that affairs are delusion and unsustainable kept me going when I had no hope.

I wonder now what I would have thought when I was so very low had an affair-spouse posted about how legitimate their marrige was. Even more scary is what message this presence may send to a WS in the throes of addiction to OP but struggling to do the right thing, only to see an entitled example of a person who MARRIED their OP appear on the boards.

I am so very hurt by their presence but also by the meek acceptence of these marriges as if they are legitimate candidates for MB-support.

I feel it sends the message out that a quickie divorce and a fast affair marriage is the quickest way to become a FWS and gain legitimacy for an affair. I cannot tolerate this in my presence.

Affair marriges are unrepented affairs in my opinion and it feels utterly wrong to use MB tools and resources on assisting such. I know MANY MANY MB'ers are offended and hurt by this too but the hurt they knowingly cause vulnerable posters is clearly a price worth paying for the help these folks receive.

Whether I am right or wrong, this is the straw that has broken my MB back. I cannot remain in this community while affair marriage spouses frequent here. I can't even ignore them because just knowing their open presence is tolerated while their example is sending messages to the vulnerable just kills me.

Thank you many kind posters for all the help these past years.

You are lifesavers and I will never forget you. But I can't do this anymore.

Why not stay and fight?

You already know that some people are tolerating their presence and you will always know this-you will also remeber your departure from the community and the reason you did so. The only way to address this knowledge is with the action of fighting it or at least watching their inevitable problems come to fruition. That's what brought them here right? Their "problems."

Hear me out: A house built on sand cannot stand right? So EVEN IF certain people try to use MB tools, the inevitable will result, no?

Watch out for the long knives of the nice police telling you you are out of line for expressing this view Bob. The offensiveness of these affair marriages to every BS and genuine FWS on these boards is unspeakable.

WOW CS, I think I agree with you.

Bob, surely folks will come to their senses soon and we can get back to the real reason we are here - building marriages the right way - and not causing pain to others who are struggling as we do it.

And a little scary for those of us who have not gone through this situation or are in new marriages...

One question is this: How do you resolve the Christian concept of forgiveness with the act of casting these folks out?

I would hazard a guess and say that there are more "affair marriages" on these boards than people realize.

I can remember one of them and that person was touted as being all knowing by some of the posters. I can remember some posters calling it what it was too.

Your choice...but if you think you haven't been in contact with them before now, you are sadly mistaken.

Adieu

committed

Bob,

I understand, as much as is possible for a FWS, where you are coming from and why you feel this way. The way I see it, though, is that probably those poster did not find this site previously, or thought they were above needing help. Now they are here, and to avoid making the same mistake twice, they see that there is something they lack and want to figure it out.

If they do not save their "affair marriages", then yet again, they are hurting even more people than before, and yet again, may go on to another "doomed-to-fail" marriage.

It is too late for them to go back and undo the damage in their first marriages. Well, maybe they could, but STILL.....if divorce ensues in the affair marriage, there are more people hurt, as I said.

I have a friend who divorced her first husband. She remarried (I don't think it was an affair-related marriage, but her first marriage may have broken up due to one). Anyway, she eventually decided she wanted her first husband back....and left a very hurt, very betrayed second husband in her wake. I wondered then, was it right to divorce the second guy in order to make things right in God's eyes?

God knows we are going to sin. We are going to make some really huge mistakes in our lifetimes....but He is a God of second chances, and I think it's a GOOD thing there are people here now who have wised up. They can't go back and change what happened, perhaps the first spouse has moved on by now....so they really SHOULD do all they can to make it work. Would you really have them continue in the cycle they were on?

Just some food for thought. You do what you need to do, Bob....take care of yourself and your beautiful girl first. If being here is a hindrance, then it probably is best to stay away.

God Bless you, always!

NOW

This may signal the coming of the Apocalypse.

Or it might be your mind EVOLVING to consider the message rather than the bitterness you have for the messenger.

Hi Committed,

I believe its one thing to "knowingly" support those folks where you have made that informed choice as opposed to supporting people who intentionally fail to be forthcoming with the info (aka omission) that they are in an affair-based marriage. Big difference IMVHO.

Jo

Good Question CS.

Forgiveness from God is predicated upon repentance - Taking God's side against yourself, Turning from your sin, Making amends. Qualities I see missing from affair marriages.

Regarding me personally forgiving people? Well I have no personal axe to grind against anyone on these boards. I don't believe some people have a place here and do a lot of harm to people in the deepest distress of their lives. They do this in full knowledge of what they are doing but don't care about anyone but themselves. But they haven't personally done anything to me and don't require my forgiveness - they haven't harmed me personally.

My wife's OM did actually ask for forgiveness when the affair fell apart. I was a little hasty in forgiving him as ever since he has still interjected himself in our lives (our childrens lives).

Does that answer your question?

Um....nope!

You must be a politician because you did not answer my question.

My question was about the Christian concept of forgiveness: How do the self proclaimed followers of God reconcile their God's command to forgive with their actions of casting stones at certain people?

I have no bitterness towards you CS. When you have posted thoughtfully I have responded in kind. Hostility has been met with hostility. I have at times found you a distraction and offensive. It does not concern me finding myself in agreement with you however it does surprise me I must say.

Your question seems to show ignorance about the christian concept of forgiveness. Perhaps you can elaborate exactly how you feel that christian concept of forgiveness is being violated here?

Bob

I am one who has argued in the past to offer assistance to someone in an A marriage. I don't know if I was right. I believe I was arguing based upon my own needs, weaknesses, and history... to be the nice guy and help regardless of the cost.

In my arguing for and listening to the arguments against, I have started to change my stance. Maybe you are correct... not that they don't deserve help, but that this is the wrong place for them to receive it.

I still see that MM is trying to stabilize the one he is helping and let God bring some good from that situation (a paraphrase of his words)... not necessarily to repair her current marriage... and I think that is a worthwhile effort. But, again looking at the damage it might be causing, you might be right. I am still trying to figure this one out.

I do agree with Cinn-sugar. For all the ridicule and arguments she has received, I, for one, am glad she has toughed it out if nothing else to say these words to you. You are a valuable member of this forum, Bob. I have not always agreed with your views, but I have always seen the value. I hope you will reconsider.

Shaden

Ditto Shaden.

Agree with Cinn-Sug, too.

You still have a lot to offer, Bob. I understand that particular thread is tough, but think about all the other folks you have been able to help.

I think (and maybe I'm wrong) that a lot of the long-timers stick around to try to help others the way they were once helped out. Having been on for a little over a year myself, I still see myself as a newbie, compared to many of vets.

MB cannot afford to lose the kind of people who have recovered their marriages like yourself and Squid. Alas, too many of us will not be such shining examples. Please reconsider.

I am not Christian, but I know of no religion where taking a vow clearly stating (as I did) "For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, until DEATH DO US PART" means anything else. Your friend did the right thing

She went back and is staying true to her vows... until death does she part.


Say like divorcing the one we vowed to love and be faithful to? That is a huge mistake. At least she rectified it.

Just because two people are divorced does not mean reconciliation is not possible.

That might be a way to look at your friend's new/ old marriage. Maybe she needed the D to figure out what she was doing wrong.

I agree with Bob. Not only is it wrong to us MB techniques and give advice to OM's and WS's, it is morally and ethically vile. Too bad for the OP, maybe he/ she will stop messing around with other people's spouses!

The acceptance of support of affair-based marriages has said many, many things to me, one of the many being:

"Be Warned:
We will support you in your attempt to salvage your marriage, but if you end up divorced we'll be more than happy to pick-up the new couple should they Wed and need help down the road."

I am not dying on any hill...And I am propping you up Bob on this one.

I am the enemy of the OW. I declare war on them! I declare war on affairs!

I do not condone or give out warm fuzzies to those who want to come here for support in their illegetimate affair marriages. Or for OP to feel better about themselves when they can't quit eating cake or sitting on a fence.

I am here to use MY experience to help END AFFAIRS and bring families together. My family is a victim of two very vicious OW and One severely dysfunctional WS. My son and I have had to put together the life pieces because of them. Because my xh morphed into a self indulgent hedonist and because there are many sad unachieving OW who want a man for their looks and money. Alas, I was vanilla...he wanted chocolate...end of that story. It was about self gratification...not about smarts.

And my xh is miserable in his affair marriage...even sent me a risque email 2 days ago with a joke about a girl who looks kinda like me in it...and admits he thinks of me.

Sad stuff. In retrospect he probably knows NOW that we had it ok...and he gambled away and lost it all. But the OW in our case was out for money pure and simple. She wanted to erase me and my ds from the photo and cut and paste her cheap self and her brood in the picture...since she has no ambition and doesn't work (except on her back).

Sorry if I paint a explicit picture...but it is what it is.

And I take NO PRISONERS NOW. NOT IN MY PERSONAL LIFE OFFBOARDS...AND NOT WHEN HELPING MY FRIENDS HERE.

I SUPPORT YOU BOB.

I DO NOT SUPPORT WISTRESSES OR SLIMEBALL WH'S WHO JUSTIFY AND SPIN THEIR EXTREMELY SELFISH AND SINFUL ACTIONS.

Careful Jo - You'll be told you're out of line with that comment.

I could care less.

My motives are plain. No secrets here.

I don't support homewreckers plain and simple.

Um. You're INline. Does that make you a skate?


BTW: I was told a-holes grew on trees, and I am here to trim the leaves.

Threads like THIS ONE http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3075030 are why these Affair Marriages are so disgusting and why the presence of these people getting help here on MB is so affronting.

Bob, don't die on the hill---take it.

The casting of stones is meant for humans who actually hate their sin and give themselves to God, not continue to [censored] the heck out of someones heart with reasons of how and why they do/did what they did.

The true repentant is who we shall not cast stones on.

The one who tells of the errors of their ways and how they overcome them.

Other than that Jesus has refuge for those who are slandered by the offender, by the 'unsaved', those who show God no remorse for their unsavory ways.

You may forgive in a christian way those who seek to change, but those who do not, face final judgement by our saviour, for all believers to witness in their final days.

Above all else god knows what is in each and everyone's heart.

Bob Pure, I have seen you around. I hope you'll stay among friends and ignore those who choose to ignite you with inflammatory remarks on your religion or you ability to forgive.

To everything there is a season. A time to forgive is one season. If you are not ready, or the person hasn't done anything to show remorse, then give it to God. God didn't forgive the ones who continuously degraded His name, and neither should you.

He cast them down.

He has been known to show no mercy to those who do not seek it.

So Bob Pure and everyone, don't sweat the small stuff.

And I agree the boards have significantly changed.

Especially pregnancy boards..... since 2000, big change... not according to what Steve Harley advised us....~sigh~

Debi

LET'S STORM THAT DAMNED HILL.

maybe if we all quit reading and posting, they would leave for lack of attention?

Nah...sharks like blood.

I watched shark week on discovery!

Can you relink. I am only getting braveheart's profile.

How to repel a shark: pop it on the nose really hard!

another way? spray stinky repellent (they used rotting sharks flesh concentrate) at them. That way is kinda amusing to me...THEY REPEL THEMSELVES!

yet another way to rid yourself of pesky sharks: harpoon them!


and any "similarity" between a shark and a wistress or a cakeating fenceman is purely non coincidental!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3075030

Whoops - sorry. There's the post

You know, I consider myself a good person, an empathetic person, I always strive to do the right thing by others, as most I guess.

I have been here a long time off/on paying it forward to help others survive the worse experience of their life. I have seen the BS gamet.

I feel vested in this Website. A stakeholder where I learned so much and it made me strong and helped me know what I stand for.

I see people talk about being good Christians here, and then I think how the OW paged my ex-H for several months (average of 14 a night) with the repeat message that "God wants them to be together" and "God won't give you your future until you accept it with me" and on and on. And there he is, my ex-H married to the OW.

So when I see people talking about doing things in the name of being a "Christian", it just doesn't have much meaning for me.

The issues surrounding the support of affair-based marriages at MB has had me on edge for a while now. I somewhat fear the day OW (now-W) can come onto these boards when the going gets rough for them and obtain support simply by claiming her "Christian" repentance. Similar to how she claimed God wanted them to be together.

There's so much more, but like Pep, I'm weary and very disillusioned.

Jo

Hey Bob,
How are you doing?
I kindof sailed off months ago and swore I would not come back to this forum. But I guess I found out the all seas have storms now and then, and occasionally, we have to put into a safe port and resupply the vessel we sail on.
So here i am again and I sort of feel like a hypocryte.
Then again, it's nice to think you have a safe port to sail into.
Most of the current MB's don't know me or my story, but I know and remember you.
We suffered sort of similtaniously, and I remember haveing great hope for the recovery of your M with Squid. I still don't belive I was wrong about that, but , like me, You still have residual issues that haunt your peace. I'm sorry if this is somehow judgemental, but I have walked your walk, and I know what it feel like.
This monumental task we take on, is not easy or gracefull, but we take it on nonetheless. It is our nature to be forgiving , but the wonderfull thing, is it is so truly within or reach, if we so decide.
Come on back, Bob, I miss your input ,
Jerry

t

BobP... I am with you... but I say stay and fight the fight... if it means being politically incorrect on these boards... then I am all for it. Call it as you see it... ignore those that deserve ignoring and help those that need it. Without you and Plank to help me see the light in my early days here... I'm not sure I would be drawing breath today.
So, brother, fight the fight. Be there to help the next true sould looking for help and not someone to pat them on the head and tell them they are doing okay while practicing utter immorality.

Shortly after I came here, eons ago in 1999, there was a frequent poster whose H had left her for the OW after an 18 year marriage (one child). When she admitted, several months later, that that was an affair marriage, I felt betrayed. Then, perhaps a year later, after she was divorced, she posted again - feeling guilty because SHE was now in an affair with a MM. That confirmed for me the fact that she was never truly remorseful.

It is cruel for people in affair marriages to come here for help to restore their marriages.

Mr P,

Hey guy.
Your journey has indeed been a very interesting one on here to say the lest.

To the board,
Give the man some respect and leave him alone.

He's been hinting at and actually trying to remove himself for quite awhile now.
{But it can be Tough when your so USED to coming to this place ......I KNOW Many Can Relate) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />!!!

Perhaps it takes something this Offensive (to him) to finish that job.

However,
should he Choose to come back for good or only from time to time ........He'll make that choice in its own time.

If this is truly good bye BP-----Then like it or Not,
just Know that your name, story and Example will Live on
and be brought up from time to time for others to sample.

Bob,

You're a fine man. I agree with you.
It's like somebody coming to a car repair forum and asking for help with a stolen car.

-AD

i am someone who IS hurt by posts that give advice to someone in an affair marraige......my worst fear

and i am hurt by the poster who is an OW who is here trying to redeem herself by helping others as she talks about how her marraige has ben forgiven by the church so that makes her a FOW

i'm NOT saying that these people haven't accepted that they made a mistake and i realize they are remourseful.

however.......my life has been destroyed by someone who is doing exactly what they did.....and all i can think when i read any post from them is.......

will my husbands OW be here one day asking for help to save her marraige to my H.....saying that she knows she made a mistake but they are happy and love each other and only want help??? will she say how sorry she is for me and say that her church has forgiven her and my H and his family has accepted her and now thier marraige is deserving of your help??

will you remember what she did to me? how she was part of what destroyed my life? will you believe her when she says that i forgive her? will you all help her to save her marraige to the same man you tried to help me win back?

this is the place where the people who are living with this NOW should be able to come and feel that NO affair marraige will be tolerated or supported....because it destroys lives and families.....and it does damage that can NEVER be undone

please STOP posting to or acknowledging these people

Although I am saddened to hear of your considered
departure- I believe your "thought police" mentality
represents something truly dangerous.
First, affair marriages are not to even be discussed or
acknowledged- then what- only 1st marriages are considered
valid, then what maybe only Christian marriages are
considered valid and what about so called "shotgun marriages"- since that marriage was also presipitated on
a sin- shouldn't that marriage be considered not
valid...where does it stop? When you consider all your
holy criteria to be met?
This is a marriage support board- no where on this site
have a read a definition that attempted to define valid
vs invalid, sacred vs non-sacred marriage.

GET OUTTA HERE PINKY.

WILL SOMEBODY GET THEIR DARN SHARK HARPOON OUT? OR SOME DAMNED REPELLENT (rotting shark flesh repels their own kind)......

There is a BS on this board tonight in trouble. And you are here being cruel and sick.

I pity you. You are pathetic.

We're not the mind police. We're the majority of this country. We say what many are afraid to.

Shall I come and hunt you on your board darling?

Bob,

I’m pretty new here and haven’t posted much, but I must tell you that when I first found this site, it was some of your posts that helped me more than you will ever know. I hope you will reconsider and remain here so that those that follow me will have the benefit of your wisdom and experience.

I feel exactly the same way about affair marriages as you do, but the question has come up of forgiveness…IMHO, the problem has to do with who is doing the forgiving and who is being forgiven. We are commanded in the bible to forgive as we have been forgiven. We are also told to “turn the other cheek”, “forgive 70 times seven”, and give our shirt to someone who demands our coat….In all of these cases, we are the ones doing the forgiving of someone who has wronged us. I don’t think it is up to us to forgive someone for something they have done to hurt someone else. It isn’t our job to forgive them.

That said, it also isn’t our job to punish them for their transgressions. The bible speaks often of forgiveness following repentance. The word repent has been said to denote a “turn around”, but could also be said to mean “change in thinking”, literally, “to think again” (on second thought). I think it is possible for someone who had an A to come to terms with what they have done, after it is too late to redeem their original M, and to realize that their actions were wrong, ask (and receive!) forgiveness from original S, and commit to making their new M what the first one could have been, even though the current M was originally based on a lie and deception.

The problem we face is this; we don’t know and can’t know, the heart of the people posting on this site. The bible doesn’t tell us to forgive on someone else’s behalf, but does tell us that sins can be forgiven. David had an A with his neighbor’s wife and even had him killed, and yet, God calls David “a man after mine own heart.”

God also ordered Hosea to marry an unfaithful women, who had multiple As, resulting in children being born that were not his. But at the end, Hosea goes and gets his wife and tells her that she is to return home and be his wife, with all the benefits of such. It is clearly used as a metaphor to describe the WS, the nation God had called to be His. It is also a lesson in forgiveness, since it was each of us that God has forgiven, and because of what I’ve been forgiven, I have much to forgive in others.

I’m not asking that you “forgive” those that are in affair marriages, since that isn’t your job. I ask only that you consider the possibility that some of those marriages may in fact now be considered legitimate in God’s eyes…and I don’t think I can argue with Him.

Bottom line, I ask you not to leave, since you are of great value here. I don’t expect you to accept these folks at face value, but they are all around us in the outside world and we just ignore them when we can. For those that follow, try to do so in here…JMO

Reminds me of a story my bro told me.

He was working in retail. Somebody came in and stole a laptop computer from the store, then the next week sent in their brother with the thing to ask for warrantee service. They arrested both of them.

A stolen relationship is no more worthy of support than that.

-AD

Hey Pinky,

Get off your own damn high horse, western thinking, "intellectual" ways. Not everyone here is a Christian.

However, the 1st marriage is the legitimate one. The one in which we made a vow to be faithful, for better of for worse, for richer or poorer til death do us part.

I am no Christian, nor am I sucked into your pseudo-intellectual "liberalism." (I am actually a radical Doaist with Thoreauian tendancies) Marriage is a contract. Breaking it is unethical, but not unforgivable. Being the person that helps violate that contract is immoral.

An A marriage is a farce.

Pardon?
*************edit********

MODERATOR...MOD PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD. IT IS NOT HELPING NOR MARRIAGE BUILDING ANYMORE.

DO NOT FEED THE SHARK HERE NOR THIS THREAD.

OOooh. Somebody has a dictionary.

Thorstein,

My liberal friends would shudder to hear me be called liberal.

What is your position anyway?


I'm very glad you have it all figued out in a month...Makes me want to stay...Just for balance... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hehehe.

Socially liberal. Governmentally conservative: "The government that governs least, governs best."

I am anarchist in the sense of Henry David Thoreau. When you think about it, we really do live in anarchy. Every day, billions of humans go about their daily lives without committing crimes. We never notice them because they are doing nothing wrong. We only notice the ones who cut us off in traffic, or engage in an A with a married person.

Yet we pass by them on the road, and they are the ones driving "normally." None of us need laws. Laws are only for people who break them. I know killing is wrong. I need a law to tell me it is illegal?

And, no I haven't figured it all out in a month. Rather, I love being here because I can give advice and usually I am telling myself the same thing. I haven't fixed my M yet, but I am hopeful (and stumbling).

ANyway, it is late, and I need sleep.

Goodnight all - except Pinky.

Hehehehe

I know a long word too...

ultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

from a spelling bee in seventh grade.

Hey Tow truck...look that up in your funk n wagnalls!

I wanted to say...

If affair marriage people come here, and they are now betrayed, does this not show fragile BS's how the problems the WS was running from, takes with them, when the marry their OP?

I don't see it happen very often...and when it does, it has an extremely high failure rate. Isn't that like taking small percentage and a smaller one? That's truth...BS's seeing this actually happening can be a comfort. A confirmation.

And what we say here, that no matter what happens, following the Harley's guide will give a BS the knowledge they learned, grew and did all they could so that whatever the future holds for them, they will not recreate because they aren't taking the problems with them.

Assuming all BS's will be hurt and harmed further seeing an affair marriage partner helped, down the line...maybe after, say, eight years...is choosing one POV; when there could be others.

I still stick with individual choice and not assuming anything...

LA

these women, who are in an affair marraige and come here feeling as though they have a "right" to be here.....who have no care, concern or regard for the feelings...the pain...of the many hurting BS here

i can see how these women are STILL the women who felt that they had a "right" to take someone else's H.....and had no regard for the feelings of the BS

don't you all see it???

they feel they are entitled, they feel their relationship with the WS is "special...different...unique"

they haven't changed at all of they would have too much respect for the feelings of the BS in pain to come here

they don't care who they hurt to get what they want

they will end up being a betrayed wistress Eav.

Betrayed.

if they'll DO IT WIT U...THEY'LL DOIT 2 U!

stats done lie...

Evening LA,

I see you have recovered your marriage. Thats a very wonderful thing. God's blessed you and your family with a recovered marriage and I know you, not unlike me, worked very hard at it.

So I need to ask, you draw your experience from being betrayed, divorced and then experiencing your ex-H marry the OW from where again?

I can tell you first hand it feels like being betrayed all over again, knowing my ex-H and his OW (wife) can saunter on in here and get support by simply "claiming" they are repentant "Christians".

OW claimed it, being Christain that is, when she was pursuing my then-H ... and this Christain woman harrassed me while I was in stage3 cancer treatments, calling me a cancerous c_nt on my answering machine (a woman I had never met).

Seems lots of folks get quite a bit of mileage out of using the label "Christian" without backing it up with actions, and people seem to buy into it. How exactly does that happen.

Jo

Jo,

I am drawing my experience from remembering what it was like to see my WH with another woman...to have the possibility of him divorcing me, marrying her...and wishing mightily that she betray him, too...or vice versa. To see the turmoil and pain be in their marriage, to have her feel what I was feeling.

It is real...watching all those people who remarry, divorce, remarry, divorce...four, five times...and to have someone here who proves the rule...even after seemingly sauntering...they get crushed, wake up, get real...and I do not believe we posters save marriages...partners do. We advise, make the effort, share ourselves...we are not magical or gods...

We cannot fix anything.

We can connect, if allowed; influence, if allowed. Limited.

And by doing so, we can further find our own way, realize our own stuff and help our marriages by helping ourselves.

My heart aches for what you went through...seems to me to be the ultimate abandonment and not only was your marriage robbed, raped...but your spirituality as well.

I can't speak for any other Christian here...at all. I'm not sure others believe I'm one...that's their business, not mine.

And I do know of what you speak...I was raised with a father who would cheat, get drunk and repent (confession) every Saturday...no matter what. Cleansed. I got that early. I remember.

What I believe is no affront to you...no act of harm, attack or dismissal. I value who you are today immensely. I am grateful you have survived everything to be here, right now. I really am.

I cannot judge others to know if they're real or not; Christian or not. I gave up judgment. What I can know, eventually, is whether I've been duped, lied to...and this takes awhile.

I really do see all of us as separate...I don't make you hurt. You don't make me hurt. You sure can feel it, deeply. So can I. And equal. Our actions are separate from selves...because then, we live in choosing our lives, making our full amends, doing the work, and change.

If this were not so, I would be dead to life...a shell...a walking human wrecking ball...with no hope.

LA

Christian is a catch all. My xfil calls himself one. He has had FIVE AFFAIRS...at least on my xmil. He probably is the guy who taught my xh cheating marriage principles in the first place. He is a deacon.

Sometimes faith is used for justifications. 911 is a perfect example of faith being twisted and contorted so badly that some idiots believe God wants them to fly a plane into some buildings killing thousands b/c it is "holy". go figure.

But plenty of people will twist and contort faith to SERVE THEIR PURPOSES.

and if they can convince the STALWART believers..spin it so much with the fake repentances at a church into blessing their unholy unions...then we need to seriously pick our churches carefully.

I am relentless. I was relentless when I knew the OW was pressuring immediatley for marriage when my divorce was imminent..within days. I knew she was laying the heat on my very WH. He was miserable. HE ACTUALLY WENT GREY...she was threatening paternity stuff...custody stuff...BEFORE the baby was born. She is a manipulative witch. And she's gettin' what she deserved.

I called the church she was a member of...HUUUUGE MEGACHURCH here in atl. I talked personally to the pastor. I informed her of her pregnancy and urgency to marry my STILL LEGAL H. He was mortified and shocked. I asked him to take a stand and NOT MARRY THEM. He agreed.

I called a few other churches in their "denomination range". I offered to send the pastors my legal docs showing and naming the other women, and the fact in the docs it stated one ow was preggers, and asked them to not further undermine the sacred vow of marriage and marry these two adulterers..shameless adulterers.

They had to get a justice of the peace to marry them.

Oh woe is OW! She actually last summer, when she was crying to me begging me to forgive HER of her lying cheating and deliberate pregnancy...said to me last summer...Yea it's not fair peach. YOU got the big wedding. YOU got the showers. YOU got all that. I didn't get any of that. I said "I know FV. I made sure you didn't". She swore at me and then got angry. She then said...well I did want it didn't I? Me: You worked really hard girl for it too. And you are sadly reaping it.

I actually did forgive her. And when she found the money train was leaving the station? She forewent ALL THE REPENTANCE...SHE IS BACK TO BEING EVIL AND VINDICTIVE AND JEALOUS OF ME! Oh well. at least we know where we stand huh? I am never moved. AT least I tried to forgive her. She was soooo shocked when he did it to her. What did the idiot think? And when she did the fake repentance? It was not real...IT WAS IN CASE SHE NEEDED AN ALLY IN COURT...she could call in the former BW to say what a cad my xh/her H is!

It is the MOTIVE of the OP that is wrong. They come cryin' here b/c it's not working out. What'dya think einstein? That THE WS WILL CHANGE FOR YOU?

Here's how I see it.

If your M is truly shotty. No sf. No communique. No shared time or hobbies. Totally separate lives.

Then do the HONORABLE THING FOLKS! DON'T CHEAT...GET HONEST! Tell your spouse you ain't happy! See if something can be done. Try counseling...what could it hurt? TRY MB. It could save your family and your entire future.

If that doesn't work...then separate and amicably divorce. PLEASE DO THAT!

WHy can't people just do that. If their lives are SOOO MESSED UP...why DO THEY MESS IT UP EVEN MORE AND CREATE CHAOS, BURN BRIDGES AND BREAK UP FAMILIES AND CREATE BAD BLOOD? WHY....IT IS ALL PREVENTABLE. Men keep the flies zipped. Girls...keep (as my favorite aunt and grandma says)..."keep your skirt down and your pants up and you'll never get into any trouble"...

it's a mcdonald's society we are in. INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

and adultery? In the end...we find the real truth. AFFAIR PARTNERS ARE IN IT FOR THEMSELVES...NOT FOR THE OP. if they were they'd truly care for their lives..their families....their kids...and they'd want to vomit at the fallout from their actions. INSTEAD WE SEE THE REALITY...more propegation of the lie. More propegation of the ME stuff.

I kinda think it's funny now that my xh sends me risque emails as he did 2 days ago...imagine...my xh WANTING HIS BETRAYED WIFEY TO BE HIS OW! how wrong is that? I will smile and have my knowing smile when the wistress is around at my ds's birthday party pretending she wants to be there...and yes...I LOVE THE FACT I FREAK HER OUT! If I were an OW, I'd freak me out too! I am the kinda BW the OW on "that" board are scared sheottless of!

can we say "peach aint' gonna go there?"???????

I don't want a WS. I want a REAL MAN.

I'm sure we both know that a "possibility" compared to actually living it are not the same.

Thank you for your response, LA. I sincerely wish you and your husband continued happiness.

Love,
Jo

Bob

I don't know if I am wise enough to answer or address Bob's concerns.
I try to support those who seem to want save a M in the spirit that the Harleys created this site. I hope I do that when I feel I can.

as for dying on the hill Bob, remember a famous quote



you can't win all the battles Bob, sometimes you need to step back and let those who don't see their past & present behaviour has changed little hit the bottom. They may or may not learn from it.
Perhaps all they can do about the past is let the previous BS know they are genuinely sorry for causing pain, theres probably little else they can do or little that the previous BS even wants from them. But its a start isn't it?

sad to see you go Bob, hope you keep in contact, you have helped us you know over the last year or so.

Jo,

Not all BS are having your experience, either. They all have the possibility of the experience.

LA

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

That's how an A-marriage is launched .... marriage to a wandering spouse

sick from the start

Pep

Bob, I understand your pain, your identification with the seeming "I got away with it" (not true btw) feeling of a marriage that began between two affair partners, and the difficulty in "counseling" someone who IS in such a marriage. All very human reactions and all very difficult to deal with.

So I'm not going to try to convince you of anything. All I'm going to do is ask you a couple of questions for you to think about concerning "difficult issues" concerning sin for believers in Christ Jesus.

Did Christ die for ALL of your sins, or just some of them?

For believers, are ALL of your sins forgiven, or are some excluded from God's forgiveness on behalf of what Jesus did FOR us?

God bless, brother.

Bob,

Don't die on the hill w/o your boots on!

In the 5+ years I have been on MB, I have seen a lot. BS, WS, Xws, OPs, Xops, children, parents, siblings, grandparents, neighbors, co-workers, etc. Oh yea, even pets. How? Well ask Knewjie. Her cats didn't even want t/b around the WS during his WS days. He musta smelled different or something but even the pets knew he had changed.

Ok I digress...... my point is that if it appears support is being given to a Ws or OP it may appear so at the beginning. We have this board we can use as an opportunity to turn it around. If the WS and OP don't like it, they will leave. Remember WS' and Ops' don't do anything longterm.

Now as the issue of posting to those in an 'affair M'...... that is a tough one and depending on where we are in our personal recovery that c/b hard for some to handle. I recall my having similar strong feelings like that waay back when. Then I kept reading. Yea....and posting.

What I found is that some of the Xws' posting here that had shed even their Xws skins were now BS'.......the insight they provided was helpful. Their pain, helped us learn.

For other Xws' they came in raw.....1/2 way inbetween the wrong and right. No it wasn't a neutral middle ground, it was 1 foot in the right and 1 in the wrong. The longer they kept posting here the harder it got have their feet in both places. For those that chose the right, they became healed BS and if their WS were able to turn around, their M went into recovery. If their WS' didn't turn around, like other BS' they headed for the D.

The point is that those BS (who were once OP/Ws' married to the WS/OP) had to overcome major guilt issues from the prior M and the current A/WS issues. Their journey started farther back than a person who was just a BS.

Do you deny help to someone who has to work harder to repair themselves and their M? In most of those cases, the previous M not only ended but the BS from the 1st M moved on. There were some that went back to their previous spouse.....there were some previous spouses who became the Op of the 2nd M. Still they had to move forward from a point farther than I started. I thought I had it hard....their's was far worse.

I realized not all can help but to leave MB was not healthy for me at the time. I was determined to make lemonade out of the lemons put before me. Therein I learned, I can help and if it helps, that's fine. If not, nothing lost.

Their healing didn't depend on me and my healing didn't depend on them but hearing them out and sharing some POVs may have helped someone else reading.....I know it did.

So if you gotz the stomach to help you may be helping someone in great need without even knowing. If you leave here, that person(s) may not get the help they need in time.

JMHO,
L.

When I was deep, deep in the fog, I was the most arrogant and self-serving WW there was.

If I had left H to marry OM, I don't think I would've EVER changed. I might have felt terribly sorry for hurting people, but I don't know if I would've switched out of that entitled mindset...ever.

If OM cheated on me (or should I say WHEN he cheated on me), I suspect my entitled mind might easily switch over to the victim mode... poor, poor me. After all I did for OM!

I don't know this for sure, but it is what I suspect.

A marriages are bogus. I am a FWW, and I agree with Bob.

OMW in my situation is OW #1 from his first M. Their A did not break up his M, and his W didn't know about it.

I feel very, very sorry for what I did to OMW. Yes, it is an A marriage, but I still intruded on that M. Eventhough their M wasn't legitimate, I still intruded, he still betrayed, and it will haunt me for the rest of my life. I know that I hurt her and her children.

That being said, I still don't think A marriages should be supported here on MB. I think of my mindset at the beginning of my A, and my suspicion that it would never change if I had left to be with OM. It makes me sick to think of coming here with that frame of mind.

My pain, not unlike OMW's pain right now, would be legitimate, but would be too hurtful to others here. It should not be supported.

I've been ignoring these threads not only for my sanity, but because they are so heavily posted on by others. I understand how passionately people feel about this issue, but at the same time, there are new posters here in pain everyday, and I rather take my time to help them.

Just my .02...

FH -

Well said..thank you.

Georgia

CinnamonSugar - You obviously do not WHO that phrase was directed to or WHAT it refers to. Nice try at twisting the Scripture to suit your purposes though.

And to think that bigkahuna "agrees with you?!?" Interesting. So you have "validation" of your unscriptural position. That must make you feel very comfortable, but it doesn't make you right.




What you refer to as the "Christian concept of forgiveness" is not a "concept," it is a promise of God given to those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. It is founded in His love for mankind and His promise to Jesus Christ that it will be applied to ANYONE and EVERYONE who looks to Jesus Christ in belief and acceptance of Jesus. Forgiveness by God for sin does NOT apply to anyone other than a "born again" believer.

So the answer to your questions would depend upon the individual's relationship with God or their lack of one.

What people choose to do and how they treat people is up to them, unless they ARE a believer. If they are a believer, what they "feel" no longer matters if it is opposition to God's commands to believers as to how they are to live their lives.

That's a major part of "... and forgive us OUR trespasses as we forgive others...."

Jesus emphasized this with his instruction to Peter about forgiving a brother who did something sinful and repented of the sin and came seeking their forgiveness.

Jesus did not die on the cross for those who are free of sin.

He did not wait for us all to repent.

He hung out with sinners, not because He supported their actions, but because they needed his help, compassion and forgiveness.

The Pharisees and Saduccees criticized Jesus for associating with and trying to help sinners.

Please realize, not one of us will ever be able to declare that we are free of sin, in our life here on earth. Not one of us will have been able to EARN Christ's forgiveness. But we have it anyway, if we ask.


NOW

Hi friend! I will be extremely sad to see you go, if you truly leave for good. I will say that I totally, 100% understand why. I wish you would just post on Recovery and maybe hope the A Ms don't invade that territory for a little while at least.

This morning I went to the Plan A/B forum by mistake instead of recovery. I was shocked at all the BSs in what I thought was recovery in such terrible pain. When I realized my mistake my thoughts immediately went to JJ and the help she is receiving here. It really does feel like a gigantic slap in the face to those of us (FWSs & BSs) who have had to fight so hard to not only save our Ms, but continue to try and rebuild them.

Before anyone gives me the forgiveness speach let me say this. For me personally this has absolutely zero to do with forgiveness. Whether JJ or any other WS/OP now Med is forgiven or not is not up to me. It has to do with sensitivity to what the majority of people have been through here on MB, especially BSs. Like Bob, it was through FWSs and BSs telling me that my H's A would never last, that it was all an illusion and he was fogged out, that kept me going when he was missing OW. If I had been witness to affair based Ms being helped here I very likely would have left. I probably would have. Left MB, and since MB kept me going, left my M.

I've read some of what JJ wrote in her coming back thread. She sounds like a typical BS who has been badly hurt. I have to wonder if her H's ExW/BW felt the same kind of pain when she was being deceived. Did she fight to save her M? How does JJ look at her now? Maybe it would help me to have JJ answer that question.

Well mate, wishing you the best. I still hope you don't leave! Your MB bud, CV

Bigkahuna - "Forgiveness from God is predicated upon repentance"

I would agree with this in so far as God forgives a repentant believer of sins they are made aware of in their lives, but it goes further. It requires not only heartfelt sorrow over one's sinful state and the sins that they have committed, but it is dependent SOLELY upon accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and asking God to forgive their sins because of what Jesus has already done for them.

Furthermore, forgiveness of sin is NOT, no matter what we say when we talk about the need to repent of sin, dependent even upon the repentance (work) itself. It is dependent solely upon the gift of God to anyone who looks upon Jesus Christ in faith and belief in who He is and what He did for us. It is just like the flaming snake that Moses held up. Anyone who merely looked upon the snake in faith that God had provided it as the means by which they would be healed and not die from their snakebite. The rest comes from a conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit and our "new creation" disgust with any sin in our lives.


"Taking God's side against yourself, Turning from your sin, Making amends. Qualities I see missing from affair marriages."

This is where you and I may have a fundamental "difference of opinion" about God's forgiveness of sins for those who are "in Christ." There are NO "works" of any kind that "merit" God's forgiveness that we humans can do. God gives the gift of His forgiveness based ONLY upon the work of Christ, not on our works. It is what Jesus did FOR us, "while we were yet sinners," that is the heart of the "forgiveness matter."

Jesus' "covering blood" covers ALL of a believer's sins. For those who are NOT born again believers, their sins are not forgiven and they are not a "new creation."

"Works" that you describe ARE things that believers will do, not to "Earn" forgiveness to "balance the scales" so that their forgiveness is "justified" by their actions. Those "works" flow from a believer who has BEEN forgiven and who recognizes, because of the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, that they have sinned against God and others, and they then want to obey God in "confessing their sin to one another" and seeking the individual's forgiveness as well. Whether or not the individual they "go to" forgives them or not, that is a matter between that individual and THEIR standing with the LORD. If they, too, are believers, they will KNOW that God requires them to forgive a "brother (or sister) in Christ who comes to them saying 'I repent of the sin I committed against God and against you'," even when every fiber of their human nature is screaming at them, "NO! You can't forgive such a heinous sin. God wouldn't want you to either!"

God know this. That is why He gave us things like the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. We believers are ALL servants of God and subject to HIS Sovereign commands no matter how we might be "feeling" in our human nature. God gave us our emotions and KNOWS them. He KNOWS the depth of the pain and agony that attends adultery. He grants a faithful spouse the right to divoce if they "must" so that any future marriage that they enter into they will not also be committing the sin of adultery. But God does NOT withhold His forgiveness from one who "looks upon Jesus" in belief, regardless of the sin or "where they are in their life" when they DO turn to Jesus.



To argue otherwise would seem to argue that God's love and God's forgiveness is "conditional" upon what we DO, rather than upon what Christ has DONE for all believers.

Your signature line that quotes Romans 8:28 would seem to indicate that you believe that there is NO "limit" to what God can, and will, use in each of our lives to bring us into a closer walk with Him and to conform our lives to one of more and more "Christ-likeness." That IS what you believe, right?

God bless.

CV55 - no one is denying that there isn't pain involved for many in trying to help a sincere person who DID the very hurtful "deed" of adultery. That is not the issue anymore than it would be for some folks trying to help an abusive alchoholic person to build a better life today despite the reality of the pain and anguish they DID cause someone in the past. There WOULD likely be folks who lived through an alcoholic, abusive, marital partner who WOULD be "triggered" by anyone trying to help such a person.

The best "advice" that I can give anyone who IS being triggered by this is the Parable of the Good Samaritan. We do NOT have to think what they did was right in order to help them. We do not have to "stay with them," We can bring them to others who will help and leave them in their hands. So as with MANY threads, it is "best" to leave some of them alone and let others talk with them.

I have, for years, cautioned many folks who are new to recovery to stay off of the JFO and GQ II forums because the emotional triggers can be overwhelming "at that point in their own recovery." I have no argument even with NOT helping someone who continues to try to "justify" their former adultery. But in the specific case of JJ, that has "triggered" this thread and comments on other threads, she HAS repented of her former action, HAS sought forgiveness from God AND from those she sinned against, and is NOW dealing with much guilt and confusion over her current marriage, including the presence of adultery in that marriage.

The "sensitivity" to what a majority of others might feel is a valid concern. But it does NOT eliminate the need to try to help someone who may be seen by many as "untouchable." That was, after all, the primary issue with Samaritans in Jesus' day. Even the disciples where asking Jesus, "What are you doing even talking to a Samaritan?" Even the Samaritan woman herself, asked the same question because "everybody knew" that Jews had NO dealings of any sort with "bad bad Samaritans."

So you are essentially correct, it has little if anything to do with "forgiveness." It has everything to do with being obedient to God in concern for others, especially for those who are fellow servants of our Lord, no matter how difficult it seems to be for us to extend the hand of God's love to the "unlovely."

God bless.

This IMO, is a lot less about someone trying to legitimze an A marriage and whether or not Jesus will forgive said persons. He will if they are truly repentant and ask him to.

It is more about the PRESENCE of someone here who is wanting help, to debate, to discuss A marriages in an attempt to legitimize them. That on the other hand cannot be done. Yes, they can be forgiven but their M will never be legitimate in God's eyes (scripture supports this). So, my only suggestion is that there are way too many BS's on this board and repentant WS's on this board to allow someone to come on here for any reason and try and make right something that will haunt each repentant WS and BS forever. I think there should be a place to A marriage partners to get help and discuss problems and issues within an A marriage BUT IT's NOT HERE.

This is the core issue, not forgiveness or acceptance. This board is not for this type of forum. It is not MB based and it is not healthy for many repentant WS's and way too many hurt and forever changed BS.

FH is hitting very close to home on this issue so I will stay out of his way.

But, I wanted to ask everyone here...especially Christians...to sit down a second and comment on King David and Bathsheba. As you know, they were married after committing adultery together, and then David had her husband killed.

God then exacted a stiff penalty on them by the loss of 4 children. But it says that they repented...and that after God judged them and exacted the consequences of their sin, it says that they had another son, who God loved.

So, the discussion I'd like to see out of my Christian brothers and sisters is this...

If a marriage beginning in adultery (and even murder to boot) is a sham marriage, then what do we make of God blessing King David's marriage to Bathsheba? And if He didnt bless it, then that means the line of David...the lineage of Jesus that is produced in the Bible (which is VERY important!! I wont go into why right here, because that is a long discussion)...well, His lineage would be a bastardized one because He would have come from a family based on a sham marriage. And if you know your Scripture, you would know that if that were true, then Jesus would not have been who He was.

So, let's discuss King David for a minute.

As you all know, I understand the feelings of Bob and others here. I do. My wife might end up with the Troll (the OM). So, I am actually living this myself. And my children and I might have to deal with this head-on very soon.

So, what if my wife and the Troll marry? What if my wife repents, and the Troll is saved and repents? Would their marriage be any different than King David's?

I agree they have very little chance of making it!! But that isnt the discussion right here. That would be their consequences. The issue here is one for the BS...and that is, was King David's marriage a sham?

***Bob, I will head later today to have a BBQ burger and discuss som things on this with you privately!!

There are some good Christian's on here that do not agree on this issue. I am thankful that we have the ability to discuss it freely... and to choose to disagree as to the Lord's teaching. The above quote is from Billy Graham's recent Newsweek interview.

Forgiveness is a gift.

Repentance requires action on our part. One aspect of this is turning from the sin that we commutted.

If an affair marriage is sin, it must be turned away from.

To me, that is the basic question we are all discussing here. Not "can an affair marriage be forgiven?" since almost all of us would say yes, but "is an affair marriage still a sin that must be removed from the people's lives when they repent?"

The crux is not forgiveness at all, to me, but whether the relationship itself is a sin.

The rapist, if he/she repents, must stop raping. The murderer must stop murdering. The thief must stop stealing.

IF (and again, the "if" is the source of the debate) an affair marriage is still adultery, then the adulterers must stop 'adultering'.

Ok, back to business as usual.

And Reverend Graham is correct!! What he was speaking of here is that too many times, we major in the minors and minor in the majors. Even the Bible speaks to this. it says in 1st Corinthians that "all things are lawful" for the believer. But it goes on to say in Scripture that even though I am free to do many things, I dont because it might harm a brother or sister. So, if I have a friend over who believes that Scripture says we shouldnt drink alcohol, then I dont drink alcohol in his presence. I dont stand there and say "well, I believe that the Bible does allow me to drink alcohol...so I dont care what you think. You are wrong." No. What I say is "I understand that you believe this...so let's have a coke."

Rev. Graham is getting to the heart of the matter here, as FHJ has done many times on here. The basics...John 3:16. This is where we all agree (Christians). This is where we all end up at the foot of the Cross.

So, I agree with Rev. Graham. we can disagree on the minors. we cannto disagree on the majors. The majors being that Jesus came, suffered, bled and died for us. And that the ONLY way to be redeemed for what we did to Him is to accept His sacrifice and turn our lives over to Him.

That point, as a Christian...is non-negotiable.

Neak...check out my previous post above concerning King David. I'd like to hear everyone's response to the question there.

FH, just to further clarify. I am not wishing JJ harm. I don't want her to burn in ******. I have even said it would be in the best interest of her children for this M to survive. It's more about the actual and potential harm caused by this.

FH, my H posted here in the beginning. He was as fogged out as any WS could be. He was missing OW and thought she was his true love. I remember FWSs posting to him, trying to help him get his foggy head out of the nether regions. Can you imagine what it would have done to him to read here advice given to people whose Ms resulted from As? A little bit of a mixed message there.

John Gottman just came out with a marriage book, with a chapter on infidelity. He said what so many others have said, that BSs experience PTSD. Is it any wonder that many of us BSs are triggered by a WS/OW now Med to her A partner being given advice on MB? I NEVER ever hated anyone in my life before our OW. It's taken me over 2 yrs of hard work to not think about her every day.

This is about sensitivity. If JJ really understood the extreme trauma caused by infidelity would she even be posting here? If this becomes a common occurance on MB I would NEVER recommend this place to anyone who is experiencing infidelity. It just would not be a safe enough place anymore.

I think what would have been nice is this. For those of you who are willing and able to help someone like JJ open a group on yahoo groups for example. Give her the help she needs there. It's not a matter of just staying away from her thread. It's the knowledge that the thread even exists in the first place that is the problem. It just is too big of a contradiction to condemn As and then at the same time help someone in an A-Based M in the same support forum. JMHO!

Now this is a very honest assessment on the pain caused a BS and the dilemna of people like this coming on here. And a very valid point, I might add!

So, where do these people go? Do they wander aimlessly due to their previous adultery? Do they have a special place they would go? Do they get a special blog screen here on MB so as not to hurt the great work being done here?

There arent easy answers to this, folks.

Honestly, MM, I see the Bathsheba thing as a non-issue in the case of David.

His only legitimate wife, if she still lived, was Michael.

With thousands of wives and thousands more concubines pre-dating Bathsheba, just about all David had all his life were adulterous liaisons.

Back up to Jacob. Three of his wives were illegitimate, yet God blessed all 12 of his sons.

Isaac was practically the only one who is not recorded as having committed adultery.

God blessed Solomon, not because of his parents' adultery, but in spite of it. It is a wonderful message that God can still use us magnificently for His glory, even if our parents have sinned grievously.

I do not consider God blessing Solomon any more of a blessing on adultery, or legitimizing of a 'marriage', than God blessing the sons of both Sarah and Hagar, or Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, and Zilpah.

And, to repeat for emphasis, with Bathsheba being a many-thousandth wife, there is no way she was David's legitimate wife, affair or no affair.

MM... if you have not read the article, I would suggest you do so. It is an inspiring read. One interesting things the Rev says is that he will not say that those that have not chosen Christ will not be saved. I found that comment to be of surprising... as it was to the reporter... so much so that comment from the Graham foundation (which was much more narrow that Graham's).

I consider that a "major" yet here is one of the leading crusaders of our time saying that issue is not set in stone.

hopeandpray - This is certainly your opinion, and just as certainly you are entitled to hold whatever opinions you wish. No one argues that the "presence" of someone seeking help, who in their past DID commit adultery, isn't painful to many others who are in the midst of a similar tribulation. But let me ask you to clarify your statement, "This is the core issue, not forgiveness or acceptance." If forgiveness and acceptance of sinners is NOT a "core issue," then why are Betrayed Spouses counseled to "take back" a spouse who has committed adultery? Why not simply "kick them to the curb" and be done with it?

I suspect the argument would be something along the lines of "well, that is different, they are still married." Okay, but the Scripture gives the Betrayed Spouse the right to divorce and does NOT say that they MUST take back their spouse into the marriage. Why? Because that marriage ended with the adultery and the level of forgiveness (of the sinner) and acceptance (of the fact that the sin cannot be "undone") is so difficult for "mere humans" and their God-given emotions.




I would be in agreement with you if all someone was trying to do was to seek to "legitimize" adultery and/or a marriage that was a "marriage where one or both of spouses had committed adultery in marrying someone other than a divorced spouse who was previously the Betrayed Spouse in their former marriage," simply because they wanted their current marriage to be "accepted" by Man.

But when a believer receives forgiveness from God for ALL of their sins, they ARE "legitimate" in the eyes of God simply because God made THAT promise to Jesus for what HE did for us "while we were yet sinners."

So I am curious as to what specific Scripture references you a speaking about when you said; "Yes, they can be forgiven but their M will never be legitimate in God's eyes (scripture supports this)."

Perhaps you could cite those references. It would be much easier for me to try to understand what you are saying if I can look them up in the Word and see what God has said that you are interpeting as "never legitimizing" a marriage of sinners.




Okay, I'm not sure I agree with you that it's not "MB based" to help someone attempt to recover their marriage, be it 1st, 2nd, 3rd, between adulterers, etc. Where DOES one draw the "line?"

I will tell you that I am one of those BS's who IS a "forever changed BS," but I am changed in my submission to God regardless of how I "feel" about something. Believe me, I have had my "share" of struggles in rebuilding my marriage, even to the point of asking God, "What? Forgive again!?! Why?" My Pride talks loudly at times, wanting me to tell God, "isn't seven times ENOUGH?!?" "Surely, Lord, you didn't mean that ALL sin is forgiven and they are made 'white as snow' in your eyes?" "'Their sin' was so horrendous that is overshadows any of my own sins and cannot be forgiven by you, much less by me."

I understand the pain and the difficulty a BS faces. I also have a modicum of understanding for what a WS faces when they have to deal with the fact that they caused so much pain and anguish. But that does NOT negate God's forgiveness and healing for those who DO put their trust and hope in Jesus Christ, regardless of whether they were the BS or the WS, remain married or divorce, remarry in adultery or remarry without adultery (the Faithful BS). SIN is "sin" to God and Christ's blood "covers it all" for believers whether we "like it or not." Thank God that it does, because NONE of us is without sin and none of us merits "legitimacy" in God's eyes based on anything we do, or don't do.


God bless.

I am not opposed to what he is saying here, in that he has always said that we will all be surprised who is in Heaven, and who is not.

But, as I have read and heard Rev. Graham, I would also suggest that his meaning here is NOT that he believes you can get to Heaven in another way besides thru Christ. He has spoken on this many times, and has said that this is a heart issue. And that no matter what your background is, where your belief system is...how much of the Bible you believe...that if you call on the name of Jesus and accept His sacrifice...then you will undoubtably be in Heaven. And those that dont...wont.

He has preached on the fact that if there was another way to Heaven besides the Cross...then the Cross was unnecessary! why suffer and die if there was another way? But there was no other way!!

So, as I said...I think much is being read into this. Rev, Graham is always preaching that it is the heart...and only God can see the heart. Thus, it is very hard for any of us to know a person's true state before the Lord.

But make no mistake...that doesnt meant that he has abdicated his belief in:

this just about sums it up doesn't it?

[color:"yellow"] problem: [/color]




[color:"yellow"] solution: [/color]

CV, please understand that I know what you are trying to say.

Please try to understand what I am trying to say also.

THE issue for ME, is whether or not the poster is a Christian. IF they are, then I MUST "look past" the personal pain I may feel to attempt to help them out of obedience to God.

If that is not so, they perhaps what you are trying to say is that MB "has no place for Christians." I can't argue with anyone who might hold to such a position, but I am NOT responsible for how someone else might feel. I am, likewise, not responsible for someone deciding that MB might not be a "safe place" for them. I have read many times of WS's who felt "driven" from MB because of vitriolic posts by BS's who were themselves in the throes of trying to deal with their own turbulent emotions over their own marriages.

If your premise that it's "all about sensitivity" is the overriding concern, then where does that "sensitivity line" get drawn? A "fogged out WS?" A BS responding in emotional tirades brought on by the "Pits of despair and anguish?"

If we make "feelings" the "yardstick," then how does that jibe with MB ideas of "meeting needs" no matter how we are feeling? Where does Plan A "stuffing" of emotions not become offensive to BS's reeling from the scortching pain and gut-wrenching anguish of being betrayed?

I would think that raising "sensitivity to feelings" to the level of a "test" of admissibility to ANY forum, much less individual thread, would be equally hazardous, but of course that's just my opinion too.

God bless.

What I was saying is that David was considered as a man after God's own heart. That even after the sins of adultery and murder, he was redeemed. Once God enacted His penalty for THAT adultery and for THAT murder...then David was forgiven.

I know David sinned other times (just as we all do). But I have had to come to this point in my life...is adultery worse than the sins I have done? Can I really look down on another person, especially one that is forgiven, or do I say "there but for the grace of God go I?"

The story about David and Bathsheba is one of the high price exacted for adultery (and adulterous marriages). And msot of the time, the few that make it do have those consequences go with them the rest of their lives. But in the context of what God wants...all of that can be forgiven by Him. Even the most unclean things were washed by God and used for His purposes. And He still does that today.

Could not agree more, FH.

MM, not going to get into a discussion of Billy Graham, but if you have the time, you might find a book called "Evangelicalism Divided" a very interesting read where many of these issues are discussed.

God bless.

I have heard about that book. I will get it. Thanks.

MM... I would read the article if I were you. The basis for this article is how he has a different perspective on mnay things in life as he approaches the end of his. So, what he has taught before may in fact NOT be his thinking today. It is an interesting read.

FH, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on all of this. First of all I deeply respect your spiritual beliefs, however I don't believe that this is a debate about Christianity. MB I thought was a place for people to come who are dealing with infidelity, no matter what your religious beliefs are. I thought the premise is that As are evil, people in As are screwed up, and the hope is that a M can be saved even when a M has been decimated by infidelity.

Yes there are many posts by very angry, hurt BSs who need to vent. God knows I have been one of them. It was through that venting that I coped, that I didn't blast my H daily, that I was able to survive and get through this terrible time. Yes there are fogged out WSs who come here to work through their feelings about the OP. We all have a choice as to whether to read these posts, whether we can handle them. I know there were people here who just couldn't handle my pain, and that was OK. The main thing is people were here trying to save their Ms, or cope with the ending of their Ms.

Comparing THAT to someone trying to save their M that came about through causing this pain to others is not the same thing. I'll give my example for the 3rd time now. It would be like if I was in a rape support group, trying to understand and heal from that trauma. Suddenly someone who had been a rapist, who had recently been raped themselves, joins the group. If the rape victimes in the group have recently been traumatized, or are still working through the trauma, it is expecting a lot out of them to suddenly feel good and safe in the group now.

I wrote this on another thread on this subject. What is the point of MB now? I'm serious! If people in A-based Ms are seeking and getting help, then let's just be honest and do away with these forums trying to help people break up As. Go to the Plan A forum and look at the pain in just the subjects of the threads. Just tell those people "whatever!". If it God's will for your M to work out, fine. If it God's will for your WS to end up with the OP, that's fine too! Let MB be a nice place to work on R skills.

MM, this is a complicated issue. I am probably the most inclusive person there is. I never want anyone to be left out. However, from the beginning this has just hit me in the gut. Maybe in a few years I will feel just like some of you open-minded folks here. But many of us are still coping with this he** that came into our lives. So in order to help JJ maybe we should just cut off the people being triggered and let them "wonder aimlessly". I don't know. I just do know I wouldn't be here now if this had occurred two yrs ago.

I will check it out! And I truly hope that after all of his life's work, he hasnt now moved away from Scripture.

Because if he is now saying that there is another way to Heaven except Jesus, he would be just plain wrong. And I would hate that be the truth about Rev. Graham.

"Because if he is now saying that there is another way to Heaven except Jesus, he would be just plain wrong. And I would hate that be the truth about Rev. Graham."

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I saw a wonderful interview of Billy Graham by Larry King this past year, and that is pretty much what he said.

Bye bob.

what I believe he is saying is it is not for man to know... he does not know if a Muslim or Jew will get in heaven without accepting Christ. That is my take on his article.

Well, if he is saying that, then that is his opinion. but it isnt based in Scripture. Scripture says there is only one way.

As I said, if there was another way...then the Cross was unneeded. And Jesus spilled His blood foolishly.

MM, we may very well just disagree on this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

David was a vessel washed and purified by God's forgiveness. Perhaps Bathsheba, too, was a vessel washed and purified by God's forgiveness.

IMO it does not necessarily follow that God blessed David's 'marriage' to Bathsheba.

Upon looking it up, it appears that he did not breach the 4-digit barrier as did Solomon, but Bathsheba was AT LEAST his eighth wife, plus a whopping bunch of concubines.

Any of the previous 7 women would have a greater claim to legitimacy than Bathsheba. There was nothing to legitimize.

Yes, David was a man after God's own heart. But even so, I doubt he realized till he was very old the full scope of what he had done. And even then, multiple marriages were so common he may still not have understood how displeasing that was to God.

God blessed David in spite of his mistakes, and forgave him. He did not whitewash his sins into not being sins any more.

JMO.

CV, we certainly can disagee and there is no problem with that. But I don't know that we disagree "that much" if you look at it.

First of all I deeply respect your spiritual beliefs, however I don't believe that this is a debate about Christianity.

I understand what you are saying, and in the case of an unbeliever it goes without saying.

However, when a person professes belief in Jesus Christ, it is most assuredly a question of "Christianity." That is where I make a distinction and you are equally within your right to not want to make such a distinction.


MB I thought was a place for people to come who are dealing with infidelity, no matter what your religious beliefs are.

It is.


I thought the premise is that As are evil,

They are, as all sin is evil and rebellion against God.


people in As are screwed up,

They are. Some by choice and some as a result of harmful actions directed against them by their spouse whereby they "choose poorly" in assuming it justifies their committing adultery.


and the hope is that a M can be saved even when a M has been decimated by infidelity.

Of course. No argument here. It IS the hope, though not the certainty.

I'm not going to argue with you about your rape/rapist example because there is nothing that says one must let someone "into their lives" whom they have forgiven.

But let toss out another equally difficult example if I may, to again illustrate that there are no "easy answers" when infidelity has struck a marriage.

What do you say to the BS who decides to raise an Other Child as their own? The child was conceived in adultery and is "not legitmate" by many definitions. The child cannot be "undone," the record cannot be "set straight," and the WS could be "taken back" with or without the child or the child could be raised in a marriage between the adulterous spouse and his/her affair partner. What about those folks who choose to adopt such a child and raise it as their own. They give it the full rights of being their "real" child, they are adopted into the family regardless of past circumstances.

None of the decisions are "easy."

Many would find it extremely difficult to raise a child born out of adultery and would find it extremely distressing to even consider such a choice of forgiveness and love.

But the situation is REAL and must be addressed in some manner. So those who "are able" to offer support and advice do so, and others do not comment because it is too distressing for them personally. There even IS a forum here for just such issues, but it is private and not open to the public because it IS very sensitive and it does cause emotional upheavel. Still, it is an indication that even MB welcomes the "difficult" situations in an attempt to help.


I just do know I wouldn't be here now if this had occurred two yrs ago.

I understand. Different people are going to react differently. I do not want to mimimize the pain that people might feel, or even their revulsion at the mere idea that someone in an "affair started marriage" might actually come to be saved and have their sins forgiven. But it's not my right to sit in judgment on that issue. It is God's right. All that I can do is to try to help a believer who HAS "lots of bad baggage" to deal with. Unfortunately, many who come to know Christ DO have very bad sins in their past, but Christ paid the penalty for ALL sins of every believer and whether I like it or not, God is Sovereign.

From the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant I understand that their sins are no more anathema to God than are mine. It IS often difficult for us to forgive as God has forgiven us, but it IS what God requires from fellow believers simply because He has "said so."

Divorce and remarriage ARE difficult subjects, especially for believers, because we KNOW that God's intent for marriage is "one man and woman, for life." Situations such as JJ's are perhaps more volatile situations, but violating "God's intent" is what sin is all about. It is also why Jesus "paid the price" for us, because none of us could pay so huge a sin debt that we each carry, even if adultery is not one of those sins.

God bless.

I resemble that remark...

In these difficult situations, you hope (pray) that you will find your faith sustaining and nurturing you. And if that's the case, it's not a bad idea to spread it around in the attempt to help others.

K - Amen.

FH,
You have email.
thanks

Amen indeed!

And Bob---if you're out there, I hope things are going well for you. Know your limits with regards to dealing with certain situations on these boards, and either avoid them or take a break altogether.

Best to you...

We all need a hill to die on, I pray that mine is the hill on Calvary.

Saul of Tarsus persecuted the Christian church. He arrested, imprisoned and killed people for what they believed.

Yet Jesus himself appointed Saul, who was later known as the Apostle Paul, to be his man to spread the very gospel that he defiled and hated. I can imagine how offensive it was for those families who had suffered at Paul’s hand. Even the other apostles did not want to accept him at first; until Barnabas spoke up for him.

Acts 9:26-28
26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord.

At some point, someone (Barnabas), had to make themselves vulnerable, to see what Saul’s (Paul) intentions were. Those who could not do that ,stayed away from Saul. What would have happened if no one ever trusted Paul (Saul)? Most of the New Testament would never have been written. And yet we are all using his letters to condemn people in (IMHO) a situation similar to his. It is also my opinion that God uses our issues and our victory over sin as our weapons for his glory.

This a quote from Pep and I whole heartedly agree with it.


Where would NBII be if she wasn’t allowed to even start plowing?

As I have been reading all of these threads, I have noticed a number of very good people looking to leave from both sides. And people with good advice leaving, because of a few, A FEW, who come on to MB seeking advice for their marriage (even though it started out wrong) is probably the greater harm.

Yes the greater harm is being caused because good people are leaving. Because when those good people leave, their experience will no longer be available for a “legitimate marriage” in trouble.

Trolls come and go, people that are not really seeking help here will eventually leave. People just looking at justifying their A will eventually leave. People will start to help them and eventually figure out what's real. They were coming here when I got here (SNL) and they will continue to come in the future. They get weeded out.

Really, I believe the only thing this will accomplish is to teach those who’s M started out as an A not to reveal that fact. Besides, I think agree with committedandlovingit, there are probably more marriages that started out as an affair marriage here on MB than we might care to admit. And at this point, I doubt that they would not want to admit it either. I think they would just rather keep it a secret and keep giving good MB advice.

Yes I feel for the BS who is triggered by someone coming here whose M started as an A, but I also know, that this maybe the place, and I maybe the person, that helps them reconcile with God, because that is God’s #1 priority; reconciliation with him. And I’d hate to be the one to have to answer Jesus when he asks me why I turned someone away who was ready to turn to him.

Very few are beyond God’s reach, and I’d just as soon stick with the examples the Harleys set.

I am reminded of a song by Casting Crowns that says “Jesus paid much to high a price for us to pick and choose who should come!”

JMVHO

Bless you all.

S&C

No DJ intended to anyone around here. I would just like to opine that among those that actually do end up interpreting the bible situationally as much as anyone are the avowed literalists and fundamentalists.

I don’t know why that is, and I assume no one here today is like that. It’s just what I often observe.

Here is something I don’t understand:

Mt5:32 “But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.”

“Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." (NASB)

John 4:16-18 “He said to her, "Go, call your husband and come here." The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have correctly said, 'I have no husband'; for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly."

Seems clear enough to me. I don’t need to interpret, fudge, change shade or ignore any of these words.

IMO, there is no way any of the above can be interpreted by a studied Christian to approve of or support the continuance of an A marriage in any way. Such a marriage is not only continuing adultery in and of itself, but it literally and very clearly leaves the original BS in the position of committing adultery if she should ever want to marry again, ever.

So, in what scripture is biblical advice to help make A marriages better/succeed grounded in?

Forgiveness? Has no applicability to what Jesus actually said about continuing adultery and its consequences. In other words, an A marriage is continued adultery, by definition. Forgiveness requires turning from sin (the adultery). Thus, an A marriage = continued sin = no forgiveness, not even if the burden of sin is finally becoming onerous to the WS.

Correct me if I am wrong. I love to learn.


BTW, FWW left right after DDay 2 to be with OM. She said God would forgive her ending our M this way and marrying OM since they loved each other and He meant for them to be together, even if it took years for others to understand.

Is that the essence of what MB is being asked to buy into lately?


Now, anyone want to discuss Pauline privilege?


Ed: The above is just the Christian moral view of A marriages. There is also an agnostic, purely ethical, view of A marriages that concludes they are wrong and should not be supported in any way. They are bad for society and bad for the community of marriages and families in general is part of it. For example, D’d women with children need welfare much more often than not. So, society as a whole should not support wandering procreation of any ilk. Not even in serial marriage.

This is EXACTLY Bob's nightmare....

On NBII's thread ... a current WW asks





she'd like to divorce and marry her A-partner....

someone IN an affair marriage care to tell her why that is a BAD idea?

Bob .... you're worst nightmare <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Pep

"Well, I married my affair partner, and the parish priest has blessed us ... so it can work out"

PHOOEY <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ... welcome to affair-marriage central

yukky meter in the red zone .... someone talk me down !

Pep

Sorry but what is WW?

it's you honey

WW = wandering wife ... an adulteress

I knew it was me but didn't know what WW stood for. THanks for clarigying.

"Well, I married my affair partner, and the parish priest has blessed us ... so it can work out"

We shall see.

We shall see.

Besides, I don't believe you. I don't know any priest who would do this unless he was lied to (probably by omission.)

First:



Then:



Yeap, there ya have it Pep.

Next generation of MB membership dominating the boards, Affair-Marriages.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately there are parish priests who will do this. My wife's OM and his affair marriage partner got an annulment so they could marry in the church. It's sick.

WAT's XW married her A-partner in a Catholic ceremony (I think)

Pep

wow. according to my XWH today...WE'RE STILL MARRIED...lmao.

He slipped.

He said "we've been MARRIED a long time now"..in PRESENT tense...oh well read my thread..and rant...

so does that make me the other other woman? lmao! I DID buy a tshirt this weekend after listening to a band that said "it's all about ME". My xh still believes OUR MARRIAGE IS VALID...AND APPARENTLY IN THE PRESENT TENSE ACCORDING TO HIS LITTLE FREUDIAN SLIP TODAY...oh well. should I tell the affair wifey? the wistress? should I tell her that I AM TAKING THE OTHER MERCEDES...I do like his car better than mine...darth can drive mine for a while. Darn it. I guess I'll have to stop dating...

And no...I'd not call any church a church if they marry their affair partners.

And for a church to allow the wedding they'd have to NULLIFY THEIR VALID MARRIAGE to do so? What is this? The first church of satan or something?

Aphelion, I read those verses the same way.

SAC, your illustration of Saul when he became Paul would be a very apt description of the welcome that FWS's and soon-to-be FWS's receive here. Sometimes it can be a little uncomfortable, but we learn so much about each other.

Where that illustration does not apply to the A-marriage situation, is that Paul had to actually stop killing the Christians before fraternizing with them.

Asking forgivness and receiving it was not enough. He had to completely cease from the behavior that had brought God's condemnation upon him.

I would love to see any of these A-wives leave their lives of adultery behind, and fellowship here as new creatures in Jesus.

I have not given up hope of seeing that happen.

FH - it may be a misuse of scripture but it is an accurate observation. Why do you find that statement so offensive? An affair marriage surely is built upon sand. Affairs always inevitably end right?

Yea but they'd have to repent...and sin that particular sin NO MORE...

that means not sleeping with their affair partner...albeit their now husband...and righting any old wrongs.

But in reality, i learned my xh's ow didn't want to do the REAL FULL REPENTANCE THING..why? IT INVOLVED SELFLESS GIVING...she's not into that. It's all about her. She would have to do the following: 1)give up the luxury cars 2)give up the credit cards 3)quit buying clothes and plastic surgery 4)GO TO WORK 5)quit hanging on the internet all day pretending she is watching her 2 year old daughter and 6)quit having the servicwes of a nanny/maid/at the Vader Playboy Lakehouse Mansion.

Repentance sadly for most of the OW is uncomfortable..IT CALLS FOR A SACRIFICE...and they don't like that much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am a bit mystified Fh - I really am. I am not sure I disagree at all with anything you said. I am confused.

Of course I believe in justification by faith - I have said nothing to contradict that. Works are a result of our faith - being doers of the word, but Christ's atoning work on the cross was complete. There is nothing we can do to earn it.

Now we clearly do differ regarding affair marriages. My understanding is that there are actually at least 3 mainstream views about divorce and remarriage. You and I clearly happen to subscribe to different viewpoints - all of which are scriptually supported. Your belief is different to mine and certainly your belief is not the only one.

Personally, I believe that for a believer to remain in an affair marriage means they have not truely turned from their sin because they are still in an adulterous relationship. Your opinion is different. So be it. But your opinion is neither more or less valid or scriptural than mine. Nor is my opinion any more valid than yours.

My personal abhorance for affair marriages in the context of this thread is the damage they do to the suffering BS's represented here.

Agree JP.

I don't post much because I'm not very articulate, but I've posted about this subject before because it's so disturbing to me, so here's my 2cents.

It would be a tragedy if anyone on this board knowingly spent time helping someone continue or improve their A-marriage. Others, like Aphelion, have done a great job of expressing the Biblical view on A-marriages and why they are wrong in God's eyes. Yes, a person can be forgiven for any sin, but only if that person repents and turns away from the sin. If the person continues in the sin, then they are not really repenting, and as a result, there is no forgiveness yet.

Let's take another commandment as an example: Thou Shalt Not Steal. You steal a necklace, feel bad, and ask for forgiveness, but you keep the stolen item and wear it every day. That's not repentance, that's continued sin. The same applies to an A-marriage.

I'm stunned by those in an A-marriage who try to use God, the Bible, church, a priest -- anything related to Christianity -- to justify their A-marriage. I would be too afraid to do that.

I'm sure there are churches and priests who allow A-marriages to occur, or who say the A-partners can be forgiven AND still continue in the A-marriage, but that does not make it acceptable to God. No church, or priest, or person, has the authority to rewrite God's laws and commands. (If you're unsure of God's express views on A-marriages, read Aphelion's post again.)

Imagine standing in front of God on judgment day and saying... well, I know you made it clear in the Bible that my A-marriage is wrong, but Mr. Priest said it was OK and I decided to follow his word, not God's Word. That won't excuse you or the A-marriage, and on that day, you don't get another micro-second on earth to make things right.

We all have choices. I choose to never knowingly be involved (in any way that may harm the marriage) with a married or separated person, no matter what the circumstances or my reason. I choose to never, ever, ever, for the sake of my soul, enter into and stay in an A-marriage no matter what any priest tells me or how much I "love" the other person. I choose not to spend time knowingly helping anyone improve or save their A-marriage. (I make a distinction between helping the A-marriage and helping just the person so they can see the damage they have caused and start repairing it.)

IMO, the limited time we each have on these boards would be better spent helping those in legitimate marriages overcome the pain, devastation, and horrible consequences of adultery and divorce.

I hope this board remains true to its purpose of fighting adultery, even when the adultery is now an A-marriage.

So if I divorce my wife for a reason other than adultery; the next guy that marries her commits adultery? What about her? Why doesn’t he say the she commits adultery too?

Or if I divorce my wife because she fornicated; it sounds as if she is free to marry again. based on thhis scripture, it seems that God would recognize the divorce and that we would no longer married.



Does this only apply to the man? It doesn't specify if the wife wants a divorce.


Where did Jesus accuse her of committing adultery? He seems to have recognized that she was married five times. Other wise why wouldn’t he say “You have correctly said, 'I have no husband'; for you have had one husband and five adulterous relationships”. Do we know anything about the other five men?

Just some questions that make you want to go hummmm.

S&C

Nev,


With all due respect the purpose of this board is "saving marriages".

Blessings.

S&C

Yes, saving them, and THESE particular boards under "Infidelity" are to save them from "ADULTERY".

I understand any confusion -- the same site that supports you in saving your marriage from it (adultery), may also support the outcome if you end up divorced and the new affair couple marrys and comes here for support.

****EDIT************

THIS IS FOG****.

"I hope this board remains true to its purpose of fighting adultery, even when the adultery is now an A-marriage."

bleech.

If you're like me...FIGHTING AGAINST AFFAIRS AND FOR THE FAMILIES...THEN YOU ARE ANTI ADULTERY...

And what is the goal of so many OM and OW out there? TO KILL THE FAMILIES...TO KILL OUR MARRIAGES...AND TO CUT AND PASTE THEIR SHAMEFUL FACES INTO OUR FAMILY PORTRAITS...SANS WIFE OR SANS HUSBAND.

That's like wanting to pet a great white shark. It WILL BITE BACK...IT DOESN'T WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND.

Since when did OP CARE ABOUT OUR FAMILIES ENOUGH TO LEAVE EM' ***********ALONE!????

THEY DON'T.

THEY COMMIT MORE THAN ADULTERY.

THEY COMMIT COVETING.

THEY COMMIT STEALING.

THEY BEAR FALSE WITNESS.

AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HELP THIS **** OUT? PUHLEEASE!

Never will I do that.

I AM FIRMLY COMMITTED TO SAVING FAMILIES...AND VALID MARRIAGES FROM PREDATORS WHO SEEK TO KILL...KILL FAMILIES. THEY WANT OUR FAMILIES TO BECOME THE STATISTICS THEMSELVES. THEY WANT AND WILL DESTROY AND STOP AT NOTHING.

AND ME?

I NOW STOP AT NOTHING TO END THEIR REIGN OF SHAME AND DECEIT.

Bob, to piggy back on what Shaden & Stonecold have said:

You should definitely reconsider your position...You have apparently been very helpful to others & in doing so you can also continue to help yourself.

Do you believe that the Universe has a "love bank" too? I believe it does..it's called karma.

I do too...I BELIEVE IN KARMA..

AND THE KARMA TRAIN WILL ROLL OVER ALL THE HOMEWRECKERS!

rollin' rollin' rollin'...keep da train rolling!

CS....IT'S NOT ROLLING MY WAY..NOR BOB'S...

yours? MAYBE.

And honey...I AM SINGLE..and can legally distract the men now.

Resilient,

If I tried everything I could to save my M and I ended up divorcing my W; then I would not want to be back together with her ever. And if they ended up coming here, then they weren't quite as happy as they made out to be were they?

I would probably would be amused and think that they are deserving of their situation. But I doubt that I would even know they were here due to the anonimity of this board. And if I that sitch hit close to home I would stay away from it because I would not be helpful.

S&C

For all of you that enjoy reading the Bible, do you remember why John the Baptist had his head cut off?

It was because Herod fell in "love" with Herodias (who was his brother's wife). They decided they were soulmates and both unloaded their spouses and married. John didn't have the good sense like some on MB to keep his mouth shut (just joking folks). He commented that the marriage was conceived in sin, and was unpleasing to the Lord.

Next thing you know, his head was on a platter, and was brought to the adulteress.

Good point, Believer. Seems like all those not supporting affair marriages are being handed thier heads on a platter.

I do find it amusing and my xh and his wistress ARE DESERVING of their misery.

But it's not right to have openly unrepentant WS here coming and causing pain for those legitimately fighting for their families...

and these shameful folks are here pouring salt into fresh wounds...causing more pain...and spewing fake faith into the mix to murky the once clear path this country walked upon...asking for help once THEY HAVE FELT THE PAIN AND DIDN'T LIKE IT...WHERE WERE THEY WHEN THE BW WAS CRYING? WHEN THE KIDS WERE CRYING FOR THEIR DADDY OR MOMMY? WHERE WAS THE OP WHEN THE BS WAS PRAYING TO GOD FOR A MIRACLE?

THE OP WAS BIDING THEIR TIME...IN THE SHADOWS..PLOTTING DAY BY DAY..HOUR BY HOUR..TO KILL A MARRIAGE. TO KILL A FAMILY FOREVER.

Hi Steadfast,

May I ask where you draw your experience of being betrayed, divorced and then have your ex-W marry the OM?

Or is it all theoretical?

Jo

Ma'am I am well versed in Judeo-Christian scripture, and I know enough about construction to use the metaphor that a house built on sand cannot stand.

This is not just a biblical metaphor or even a simple construction metaphor, but one that is common sense : Anything built on a CRAPPY foundation will eventually fall. That includes relationships based upon lies and betrayal, as well as those prefab condos they are building out in Prince William County.



If you have read my posts even twice you will know full effing well that I need NO validation from anyone here.

In fact, I am an MB pariah. (Yes-I had a t-shirt made!)



And, you are showing your ignorance of the religion and Faith that YOU proport to follow: The Bible is filled with tales of people FORGIVING one another-it's an object lesson amd defintiely a Judeo-Christian concept.

Nope-The basic question here is this one:

Is my pain more powerful than my willingness and ability to forgive?

S&C, I'm so glad you posted that.

And I would be so very sad for the yet-more-children whose families would be sundered apart if we destroyed all affair marriages.

I do not LIKE affair marriages. (I try not to hate anything, except liver.)

I would prefer that they never existed in the first place.

But I would really struggle when children have been born. How can one act of destruction heal another? Surely it creates only more destruction.

Actually CS, I have forgiven my WH and the OW, and told them so.

However, the choices they made about my life, behind my back, has fundamentally changed me forever.

Huh??!!??!!??!! Wow -- I don't know what is going on here.

It appears that the sentence I wrote was taken out of context by several posters -- probably because it was the last sentence of the post and those who commented on it didn't read the whole post.

Let me be clear on my opinion .... I am totally and 100% against affairs. I do not, and see no good reason to, support marriages that started as an affair. I consider a marriage that started as an A to be a continuation of the Adultery. Thus, I wrote that I hope the boards related to adultery continue to point out the damage and harm caused by adultery, even when the Adultery continues into a so-called "marriage" by the adulterous parties.

Is that clear now? Or should I type my entire post in all caps so that people actually read it and not take just one sentence out of context? Sheesh.

Peachy - stop screaming and read my entire post.

S&C - I agree that MB is about helping marriages in general. However, I strongly and completley disagree that it was started by Dr. Harley to help all marriages, even those that started out as an affair. I base my conclusion on my counseling sessions with SH and a direct discussion we had about whether leading my then WH to MB (counseling and boards) would give him tools to improve his A. I asked, point blank, if SH would try to help a couple save their A-marriage if it started as an A. The only exception he made was when the first marriage was childless and the A-marriage had resulted in a child. He may have changed his mind since then - that's not for me to say. (Apart from that direct conversation, it seems illogical to set up a system to salvage marriages from the brink of divorce, and in particular divorce caused by adultery, and then help the adulterous couple.)

Resilient - see above.

The fact that I am distracting for men is not predicated upon a legal / illegal concept; I am an attractive woman. It's THAT simple.

WHY are you predicting that the homewrecker train is coming towards MY marriage?

How very UNChristian of you to wish ill will upon me and my family.

I will be the better Christian here and wish you and your family BLESSINGS.

nicusftlomwydgthoohcicscs

Great

Are you saying your M was an affair marriage?

I only say that to homewreckers. I just say the train's a rolling their way. I didn't persay SAY IT WAS YOUR MARRIAGE...but if affair marriage? I sure hope yours isn't one. I don't know. I haven't posted 2 u before...questioned you...and not wanted to really until I read some stuff today...not really AT you mind you...just b/c I found some of the stuff here stupid. Affair justification is plain stupid.

Karma is...well...karma.

I did forgive btw...the wistress...when she PRETENDED TO HONESTLY BE HURT...AND WANTING TO CHANGE AND REPENT. I sure did. And I feel sorry for her now. I sure do.

Because it was fake. Like most OW...when the pain turns on them...it hurts and they want the hugs...the affirmations..the help.