I am not opposed to what he is saying here, in that he has always said that we will all be surprised who is in Heaven, and who is not.

But, as I have read and heard Rev. Graham, I would also suggest that his meaning here is NOT that he believes you can get to Heaven in another way besides thru Christ. He has spoken on this many times, and has said that this is a heart issue. And that no matter what your background is, where your belief system is...how much of the Bible you believe...that if you call on the name of Jesus and accept His sacrifice...then you will undoubtably be in Heaven. And those that dont...wont.

He has preached on the fact that if there was another way to Heaven besides the Cross...then the Cross was unnecessary! why suffer and die if there was another way? But there was no other way!!

So, as I said...I think much is being read into this. Rev, Graham is always preaching that it is the heart...and only God can see the heart. Thus, it is very hard for any of us to know a person's true state before the Lord.

But make no mistake...that doesnt meant that he has abdicated his belief in:

this just about sums it up doesn't it?

[color:"yellow"] problem: [/color]




[color:"yellow"] solution: [/color]

CV, please understand that I know what you are trying to say.

Please try to understand what I am trying to say also.

THE issue for ME, is whether or not the poster is a Christian. IF they are, then I MUST "look past" the personal pain I may feel to attempt to help them out of obedience to God.

If that is not so, they perhaps what you are trying to say is that MB "has no place for Christians." I can't argue with anyone who might hold to such a position, but I am NOT responsible for how someone else might feel. I am, likewise, not responsible for someone deciding that MB might not be a "safe place" for them. I have read many times of WS's who felt "driven" from MB because of vitriolic posts by BS's who were themselves in the throes of trying to deal with their own turbulent emotions over their own marriages.

If your premise that it's "all about sensitivity" is the overriding concern, then where does that "sensitivity line" get drawn? A "fogged out WS?" A BS responding in emotional tirades brought on by the "Pits of despair and anguish?"

If we make "feelings" the "yardstick," then how does that jibe with MB ideas of "meeting needs" no matter how we are feeling? Where does Plan A "stuffing" of emotions not become offensive to BS's reeling from the scortching pain and gut-wrenching anguish of being betrayed?

I would think that raising "sensitivity to feelings" to the level of a "test" of admissibility to ANY forum, much less individual thread, would be equally hazardous, but of course that's just my opinion too.

God bless.

What I was saying is that David was considered as a man after God's own heart. That even after the sins of adultery and murder, he was redeemed. Once God enacted His penalty for THAT adultery and for THAT murder...then David was forgiven.

I know David sinned other times (just as we all do). But I have had to come to this point in my life...is adultery worse than the sins I have done? Can I really look down on another person, especially one that is forgiven, or do I say "there but for the grace of God go I?"

The story about David and Bathsheba is one of the high price exacted for adultery (and adulterous marriages). And msot of the time, the few that make it do have those consequences go with them the rest of their lives. But in the context of what God wants...all of that can be forgiven by Him. Even the most unclean things were washed by God and used for His purposes. And He still does that today.

Could not agree more, FH.

MM, not going to get into a discussion of Billy Graham, but if you have the time, you might find a book called "Evangelicalism Divided" a very interesting read where many of these issues are discussed.

God bless.

I have heard about that book. I will get it. Thanks.

MM... I would read the article if I were you. The basis for this article is how he has a different perspective on mnay things in life as he approaches the end of his. So, what he has taught before may in fact NOT be his thinking today. It is an interesting read.

FH, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on all of this. First of all I deeply respect your spiritual beliefs, however I don't believe that this is a debate about Christianity. MB I thought was a place for people to come who are dealing with infidelity, no matter what your religious beliefs are. I thought the premise is that As are evil, people in As are screwed up, and the hope is that a M can be saved even when a M has been decimated by infidelity.

Yes there are many posts by very angry, hurt BSs who need to vent. God knows I have been one of them. It was through that venting that I coped, that I didn't blast my H daily, that I was able to survive and get through this terrible time. Yes there are fogged out WSs who come here to work through their feelings about the OP. We all have a choice as to whether to read these posts, whether we can handle them. I know there were people here who just couldn't handle my pain, and that was OK. The main thing is people were here trying to save their Ms, or cope with the ending of their Ms.

Comparing THAT to someone trying to save their M that came about through causing this pain to others is not the same thing. I'll give my example for the 3rd time now. It would be like if I was in a rape support group, trying to understand and heal from that trauma. Suddenly someone who had been a rapist, who had recently been raped themselves, joins the group. If the rape victimes in the group have recently been traumatized, or are still working through the trauma, it is expecting a lot out of them to suddenly feel good and safe in the group now.

I wrote this on another thread on this subject. What is the point of MB now? I'm serious! If people in A-based Ms are seeking and getting help, then let's just be honest and do away with these forums trying to help people break up As. Go to the Plan A forum and look at the pain in just the subjects of the threads. Just tell those people "whatever!". If it God's will for your M to work out, fine. If it God's will for your WS to end up with the OP, that's fine too! Let MB be a nice place to work on R skills.

MM, this is a complicated issue. I am probably the most inclusive person there is. I never want anyone to be left out. However, from the beginning this has just hit me in the gut. Maybe in a few years I will feel just like some of you open-minded folks here. But many of us are still coping with this he** that came into our lives. So in order to help JJ maybe we should just cut off the people being triggered and let them "wonder aimlessly". I don't know. I just do know I wouldn't be here now if this had occurred two yrs ago.

I will check it out! And I truly hope that after all of his life's work, he hasnt now moved away from Scripture.

Because if he is now saying that there is another way to Heaven except Jesus, he would be just plain wrong. And I would hate that be the truth about Rev. Graham.

"Because if he is now saying that there is another way to Heaven except Jesus, he would be just plain wrong. And I would hate that be the truth about Rev. Graham."

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I saw a wonderful interview of Billy Graham by Larry King this past year, and that is pretty much what he said.

Bye bob.

what I believe he is saying is it is not for man to know... he does not know if a Muslim or Jew will get in heaven without accepting Christ. That is my take on his article.

Well, if he is saying that, then that is his opinion. but it isnt based in Scripture. Scripture says there is only one way.

As I said, if there was another way...then the Cross was unneeded. And Jesus spilled His blood foolishly.

MM, we may very well just disagree on this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

David was a vessel washed and purified by God's forgiveness. Perhaps Bathsheba, too, was a vessel washed and purified by God's forgiveness.

IMO it does not necessarily follow that God blessed David's 'marriage' to Bathsheba.

Upon looking it up, it appears that he did not breach the 4-digit barrier as did Solomon, but Bathsheba was AT LEAST his eighth wife, plus a whopping bunch of concubines.

Any of the previous 7 women would have a greater claim to legitimacy than Bathsheba. There was nothing to legitimize.

Yes, David was a man after God's own heart. But even so, I doubt he realized till he was very old the full scope of what he had done. And even then, multiple marriages were so common he may still not have understood how displeasing that was to God.

God blessed David in spite of his mistakes, and forgave him. He did not whitewash his sins into not being sins any more.

JMO.

CV, we certainly can disagee and there is no problem with that. But I don't know that we disagree "that much" if you look at it.

First of all I deeply respect your spiritual beliefs, however I don't believe that this is a debate about Christianity.

I understand what you are saying, and in the case of an unbeliever it goes without saying.

However, when a person professes belief in Jesus Christ, it is most assuredly a question of "Christianity." That is where I make a distinction and you are equally within your right to not want to make such a distinction.


MB I thought was a place for people to come who are dealing with infidelity, no matter what your religious beliefs are.

It is.


I thought the premise is that As are evil,

They are, as all sin is evil and rebellion against God.


people in As are screwed up,

They are. Some by choice and some as a result of harmful actions directed against them by their spouse whereby they "choose poorly" in assuming it justifies their committing adultery.


and the hope is that a M can be saved even when a M has been decimated by infidelity.

Of course. No argument here. It IS the hope, though not the certainty.

I'm not going to argue with you about your rape/rapist example because there is nothing that says one must let someone "into their lives" whom they have forgiven.

But let toss out another equally difficult example if I may, to again illustrate that there are no "easy answers" when infidelity has struck a marriage.

What do you say to the BS who decides to raise an Other Child as their own? The child was conceived in adultery and is "not legitmate" by many definitions. The child cannot be "undone," the record cannot be "set straight," and the WS could be "taken back" with or without the child or the child could be raised in a marriage between the adulterous spouse and his/her affair partner. What about those folks who choose to adopt such a child and raise it as their own. They give it the full rights of being their "real" child, they are adopted into the family regardless of past circumstances.

None of the decisions are "easy."

Many would find it extremely difficult to raise a child born out of adultery and would find it extremely distressing to even consider such a choice of forgiveness and love.

But the situation is REAL and must be addressed in some manner. So those who "are able" to offer support and advice do so, and others do not comment because it is too distressing for them personally. There even IS a forum here for just such issues, but it is private and not open to the public because it IS very sensitive and it does cause emotional upheavel. Still, it is an indication that even MB welcomes the "difficult" situations in an attempt to help.


I just do know I wouldn't be here now if this had occurred two yrs ago.

I understand. Different people are going to react differently. I do not want to mimimize the pain that people might feel, or even their revulsion at the mere idea that someone in an "affair started marriage" might actually come to be saved and have their sins forgiven. But it's not my right to sit in judgment on that issue. It is God's right. All that I can do is to try to help a believer who HAS "lots of bad baggage" to deal with. Unfortunately, many who come to know Christ DO have very bad sins in their past, but Christ paid the penalty for ALL sins of every believer and whether I like it or not, God is Sovereign.

From the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant I understand that their sins are no more anathema to God than are mine. It IS often difficult for us to forgive as God has forgiven us, but it IS what God requires from fellow believers simply because He has "said so."

Divorce and remarriage ARE difficult subjects, especially for believers, because we KNOW that God's intent for marriage is "one man and woman, for life." Situations such as JJ's are perhaps more volatile situations, but violating "God's intent" is what sin is all about. It is also why Jesus "paid the price" for us, because none of us could pay so huge a sin debt that we each carry, even if adultery is not one of those sins.

God bless.

I resemble that remark...

In these difficult situations, you hope (pray) that you will find your faith sustaining and nurturing you. And if that's the case, it's not a bad idea to spread it around in the attempt to help others.

K - Amen.

FH,
You have email.
thanks

Amen indeed!

And Bob---if you're out there, I hope things are going well for you. Know your limits with regards to dealing with certain situations on these boards, and either avoid them or take a break altogether.

Best to you...