Bob, I understand your pain, your identification with the seeming "I got away with it" (not true btw) feeling of a marriage that began between two affair partners, and the difficulty in "counseling" someone who IS in such a marriage. All very human reactions and all very difficult to deal with.

So I'm not going to try to convince you of anything. All I'm going to do is ask you a couple of questions for you to think about concerning "difficult issues" concerning sin for believers in Christ Jesus.

Did Christ die for ALL of your sins, or just some of them?

For believers, are ALL of your sins forgiven, or are some excluded from God's forgiveness on behalf of what Jesus did FOR us?

God bless, brother.

Bob,

Don't die on the hill w/o your boots on!

In the 5+ years I have been on MB, I have seen a lot. BS, WS, Xws, OPs, Xops, children, parents, siblings, grandparents, neighbors, co-workers, etc. Oh yea, even pets. How? Well ask Knewjie. Her cats didn't even want t/b around the WS during his WS days. He musta smelled different or something but even the pets knew he had changed.

Ok I digress...... my point is that if it appears support is being given to a Ws or OP it may appear so at the beginning. We have this board we can use as an opportunity to turn it around. If the WS and OP don't like it, they will leave. Remember WS' and Ops' don't do anything longterm.

Now as the issue of posting to those in an 'affair M'...... that is a tough one and depending on where we are in our personal recovery that c/b hard for some to handle. I recall my having similar strong feelings like that waay back when. Then I kept reading. Yea....and posting.

What I found is that some of the Xws' posting here that had shed even their Xws skins were now BS'.......the insight they provided was helpful. Their pain, helped us learn.

For other Xws' they came in raw.....1/2 way inbetween the wrong and right. No it wasn't a neutral middle ground, it was 1 foot in the right and 1 in the wrong. The longer they kept posting here the harder it got have their feet in both places. For those that chose the right, they became healed BS and if their WS were able to turn around, their M went into recovery. If their WS' didn't turn around, like other BS' they headed for the D.

The point is that those BS (who were once OP/Ws' married to the WS/OP) had to overcome major guilt issues from the prior M and the current A/WS issues. Their journey started farther back than a person who was just a BS.

Do you deny help to someone who has to work harder to repair themselves and their M? In most of those cases, the previous M not only ended but the BS from the 1st M moved on. There were some that went back to their previous spouse.....there were some previous spouses who became the Op of the 2nd M. Still they had to move forward from a point farther than I started. I thought I had it hard....their's was far worse.

I realized not all can help but to leave MB was not healthy for me at the time. I was determined to make lemonade out of the lemons put before me. Therein I learned, I can help and if it helps, that's fine. If not, nothing lost.

Their healing didn't depend on me and my healing didn't depend on them but hearing them out and sharing some POVs may have helped someone else reading.....I know it did.

So if you gotz the stomach to help you may be helping someone in great need without even knowing. If you leave here, that person(s) may not get the help they need in time.

JMHO,
L.

When I was deep, deep in the fog, I was the most arrogant and self-serving WW there was.

If I had left H to marry OM, I don't think I would've EVER changed. I might have felt terribly sorry for hurting people, but I don't know if I would've switched out of that entitled mindset...ever.

If OM cheated on me (or should I say WHEN he cheated on me), I suspect my entitled mind might easily switch over to the victim mode... poor, poor me. After all I did for OM!

I don't know this for sure, but it is what I suspect.

A marriages are bogus. I am a FWW, and I agree with Bob.

OMW in my situation is OW #1 from his first M. Their A did not break up his M, and his W didn't know about it.

I feel very, very sorry for what I did to OMW. Yes, it is an A marriage, but I still intruded on that M. Eventhough their M wasn't legitimate, I still intruded, he still betrayed, and it will haunt me for the rest of my life. I know that I hurt her and her children.

That being said, I still don't think A marriages should be supported here on MB. I think of my mindset at the beginning of my A, and my suspicion that it would never change if I had left to be with OM. It makes me sick to think of coming here with that frame of mind.

My pain, not unlike OMW's pain right now, would be legitimate, but would be too hurtful to others here. It should not be supported.

I've been ignoring these threads not only for my sanity, but because they are so heavily posted on by others. I understand how passionately people feel about this issue, but at the same time, there are new posters here in pain everyday, and I rather take my time to help them.

Just my .02...

FH -

Well said..thank you.

Georgia

CinnamonSugar - You obviously do not WHO that phrase was directed to or WHAT it refers to. Nice try at twisting the Scripture to suit your purposes though.

And to think that bigkahuna "agrees with you?!?" Interesting. So you have "validation" of your unscriptural position. That must make you feel very comfortable, but it doesn't make you right.




What you refer to as the "Christian concept of forgiveness" is not a "concept," it is a promise of God given to those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. It is founded in His love for mankind and His promise to Jesus Christ that it will be applied to ANYONE and EVERYONE who looks to Jesus Christ in belief and acceptance of Jesus. Forgiveness by God for sin does NOT apply to anyone other than a "born again" believer.

So the answer to your questions would depend upon the individual's relationship with God or their lack of one.

What people choose to do and how they treat people is up to them, unless they ARE a believer. If they are a believer, what they "feel" no longer matters if it is opposition to God's commands to believers as to how they are to live their lives.

That's a major part of "... and forgive us OUR trespasses as we forgive others...."

Jesus emphasized this with his instruction to Peter about forgiving a brother who did something sinful and repented of the sin and came seeking their forgiveness.

Jesus did not die on the cross for those who are free of sin.

He did not wait for us all to repent.

He hung out with sinners, not because He supported their actions, but because they needed his help, compassion and forgiveness.

The Pharisees and Saduccees criticized Jesus for associating with and trying to help sinners.

Please realize, not one of us will ever be able to declare that we are free of sin, in our life here on earth. Not one of us will have been able to EARN Christ's forgiveness. But we have it anyway, if we ask.


NOW

Hi friend! I will be extremely sad to see you go, if you truly leave for good. I will say that I totally, 100% understand why. I wish you would just post on Recovery and maybe hope the A Ms don't invade that territory for a little while at least.

This morning I went to the Plan A/B forum by mistake instead of recovery. I was shocked at all the BSs in what I thought was recovery in such terrible pain. When I realized my mistake my thoughts immediately went to JJ and the help she is receiving here. It really does feel like a gigantic slap in the face to those of us (FWSs & BSs) who have had to fight so hard to not only save our Ms, but continue to try and rebuild them.

Before anyone gives me the forgiveness speach let me say this. For me personally this has absolutely zero to do with forgiveness. Whether JJ or any other WS/OP now Med is forgiven or not is not up to me. It has to do with sensitivity to what the majority of people have been through here on MB, especially BSs. Like Bob, it was through FWSs and BSs telling me that my H's A would never last, that it was all an illusion and he was fogged out, that kept me going when he was missing OW. If I had been witness to affair based Ms being helped here I very likely would have left. I probably would have. Left MB, and since MB kept me going, left my M.

I've read some of what JJ wrote in her coming back thread. She sounds like a typical BS who has been badly hurt. I have to wonder if her H's ExW/BW felt the same kind of pain when she was being deceived. Did she fight to save her M? How does JJ look at her now? Maybe it would help me to have JJ answer that question.

Well mate, wishing you the best. I still hope you don't leave! Your MB bud, CV

Bigkahuna - "Forgiveness from God is predicated upon repentance"

I would agree with this in so far as God forgives a repentant believer of sins they are made aware of in their lives, but it goes further. It requires not only heartfelt sorrow over one's sinful state and the sins that they have committed, but it is dependent SOLELY upon accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and asking God to forgive their sins because of what Jesus has already done for them.

Furthermore, forgiveness of sin is NOT, no matter what we say when we talk about the need to repent of sin, dependent even upon the repentance (work) itself. It is dependent solely upon the gift of God to anyone who looks upon Jesus Christ in faith and belief in who He is and what He did for us. It is just like the flaming snake that Moses held up. Anyone who merely looked upon the snake in faith that God had provided it as the means by which they would be healed and not die from their snakebite. The rest comes from a conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit and our "new creation" disgust with any sin in our lives.


"Taking God's side against yourself, Turning from your sin, Making amends. Qualities I see missing from affair marriages."

This is where you and I may have a fundamental "difference of opinion" about God's forgiveness of sins for those who are "in Christ." There are NO "works" of any kind that "merit" God's forgiveness that we humans can do. God gives the gift of His forgiveness based ONLY upon the work of Christ, not on our works. It is what Jesus did FOR us, "while we were yet sinners," that is the heart of the "forgiveness matter."

Jesus' "covering blood" covers ALL of a believer's sins. For those who are NOT born again believers, their sins are not forgiven and they are not a "new creation."

"Works" that you describe ARE things that believers will do, not to "Earn" forgiveness to "balance the scales" so that their forgiveness is "justified" by their actions. Those "works" flow from a believer who has BEEN forgiven and who recognizes, because of the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, that they have sinned against God and others, and they then want to obey God in "confessing their sin to one another" and seeking the individual's forgiveness as well. Whether or not the individual they "go to" forgives them or not, that is a matter between that individual and THEIR standing with the LORD. If they, too, are believers, they will KNOW that God requires them to forgive a "brother (or sister) in Christ who comes to them saying 'I repent of the sin I committed against God and against you'," even when every fiber of their human nature is screaming at them, "NO! You can't forgive such a heinous sin. God wouldn't want you to either!"

God know this. That is why He gave us things like the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. We believers are ALL servants of God and subject to HIS Sovereign commands no matter how we might be "feeling" in our human nature. God gave us our emotions and KNOWS them. He KNOWS the depth of the pain and agony that attends adultery. He grants a faithful spouse the right to divoce if they "must" so that any future marriage that they enter into they will not also be committing the sin of adultery. But God does NOT withhold His forgiveness from one who "looks upon Jesus" in belief, regardless of the sin or "where they are in their life" when they DO turn to Jesus.



To argue otherwise would seem to argue that God's love and God's forgiveness is "conditional" upon what we DO, rather than upon what Christ has DONE for all believers.

Your signature line that quotes Romans 8:28 would seem to indicate that you believe that there is NO "limit" to what God can, and will, use in each of our lives to bring us into a closer walk with Him and to conform our lives to one of more and more "Christ-likeness." That IS what you believe, right?

God bless.

CV55 - no one is denying that there isn't pain involved for many in trying to help a sincere person who DID the very hurtful "deed" of adultery. That is not the issue anymore than it would be for some folks trying to help an abusive alchoholic person to build a better life today despite the reality of the pain and anguish they DID cause someone in the past. There WOULD likely be folks who lived through an alcoholic, abusive, marital partner who WOULD be "triggered" by anyone trying to help such a person.

The best "advice" that I can give anyone who IS being triggered by this is the Parable of the Good Samaritan. We do NOT have to think what they did was right in order to help them. We do not have to "stay with them," We can bring them to others who will help and leave them in their hands. So as with MANY threads, it is "best" to leave some of them alone and let others talk with them.

I have, for years, cautioned many folks who are new to recovery to stay off of the JFO and GQ II forums because the emotional triggers can be overwhelming "at that point in their own recovery." I have no argument even with NOT helping someone who continues to try to "justify" their former adultery. But in the specific case of JJ, that has "triggered" this thread and comments on other threads, she HAS repented of her former action, HAS sought forgiveness from God AND from those she sinned against, and is NOW dealing with much guilt and confusion over her current marriage, including the presence of adultery in that marriage.

The "sensitivity" to what a majority of others might feel is a valid concern. But it does NOT eliminate the need to try to help someone who may be seen by many as "untouchable." That was, after all, the primary issue with Samaritans in Jesus' day. Even the disciples where asking Jesus, "What are you doing even talking to a Samaritan?" Even the Samaritan woman herself, asked the same question because "everybody knew" that Jews had NO dealings of any sort with "bad bad Samaritans."

So you are essentially correct, it has little if anything to do with "forgiveness." It has everything to do with being obedient to God in concern for others, especially for those who are fellow servants of our Lord, no matter how difficult it seems to be for us to extend the hand of God's love to the "unlovely."

God bless.

This IMO, is a lot less about someone trying to legitimze an A marriage and whether or not Jesus will forgive said persons. He will if they are truly repentant and ask him to.

It is more about the PRESENCE of someone here who is wanting help, to debate, to discuss A marriages in an attempt to legitimize them. That on the other hand cannot be done. Yes, they can be forgiven but their M will never be legitimate in God's eyes (scripture supports this). So, my only suggestion is that there are way too many BS's on this board and repentant WS's on this board to allow someone to come on here for any reason and try and make right something that will haunt each repentant WS and BS forever. I think there should be a place to A marriage partners to get help and discuss problems and issues within an A marriage BUT IT's NOT HERE.

This is the core issue, not forgiveness or acceptance. This board is not for this type of forum. It is not MB based and it is not healthy for many repentant WS's and way too many hurt and forever changed BS.

FH is hitting very close to home on this issue so I will stay out of his way.

But, I wanted to ask everyone here...especially Christians...to sit down a second and comment on King David and Bathsheba. As you know, they were married after committing adultery together, and then David had her husband killed.

God then exacted a stiff penalty on them by the loss of 4 children. But it says that they repented...and that after God judged them and exacted the consequences of their sin, it says that they had another son, who God loved.

So, the discussion I'd like to see out of my Christian brothers and sisters is this...

If a marriage beginning in adultery (and even murder to boot) is a sham marriage, then what do we make of God blessing King David's marriage to Bathsheba? And if He didnt bless it, then that means the line of David...the lineage of Jesus that is produced in the Bible (which is VERY important!! I wont go into why right here, because that is a long discussion)...well, His lineage would be a bastardized one because He would have come from a family based on a sham marriage. And if you know your Scripture, you would know that if that were true, then Jesus would not have been who He was.

So, let's discuss King David for a minute.

As you all know, I understand the feelings of Bob and others here. I do. My wife might end up with the Troll (the OM). So, I am actually living this myself. And my children and I might have to deal with this head-on very soon.

So, what if my wife and the Troll marry? What if my wife repents, and the Troll is saved and repents? Would their marriage be any different than King David's?

I agree they have very little chance of making it!! But that isnt the discussion right here. That would be their consequences. The issue here is one for the BS...and that is, was King David's marriage a sham?

***Bob, I will head later today to have a BBQ burger and discuss som things on this with you privately!!

There are some good Christian's on here that do not agree on this issue. I am thankful that we have the ability to discuss it freely... and to choose to disagree as to the Lord's teaching. The above quote is from Billy Graham's recent Newsweek interview.

Forgiveness is a gift.

Repentance requires action on our part. One aspect of this is turning from the sin that we commutted.

If an affair marriage is sin, it must be turned away from.

To me, that is the basic question we are all discussing here. Not "can an affair marriage be forgiven?" since almost all of us would say yes, but "is an affair marriage still a sin that must be removed from the people's lives when they repent?"

The crux is not forgiveness at all, to me, but whether the relationship itself is a sin.

The rapist, if he/she repents, must stop raping. The murderer must stop murdering. The thief must stop stealing.

IF (and again, the "if" is the source of the debate) an affair marriage is still adultery, then the adulterers must stop 'adultering'.

Ok, back to business as usual.

And Reverend Graham is correct!! What he was speaking of here is that too many times, we major in the minors and minor in the majors. Even the Bible speaks to this. it says in 1st Corinthians that "all things are lawful" for the believer. But it goes on to say in Scripture that even though I am free to do many things, I dont because it might harm a brother or sister. So, if I have a friend over who believes that Scripture says we shouldnt drink alcohol, then I dont drink alcohol in his presence. I dont stand there and say "well, I believe that the Bible does allow me to drink alcohol...so I dont care what you think. You are wrong." No. What I say is "I understand that you believe this...so let's have a coke."

Rev. Graham is getting to the heart of the matter here, as FHJ has done many times on here. The basics...John 3:16. This is where we all agree (Christians). This is where we all end up at the foot of the Cross.

So, I agree with Rev. Graham. we can disagree on the minors. we cannto disagree on the majors. The majors being that Jesus came, suffered, bled and died for us. And that the ONLY way to be redeemed for what we did to Him is to accept His sacrifice and turn our lives over to Him.

That point, as a Christian...is non-negotiable.

Neak...check out my previous post above concerning King David. I'd like to hear everyone's response to the question there.

FH, just to further clarify. I am not wishing JJ harm. I don't want her to burn in ******. I have even said it would be in the best interest of her children for this M to survive. It's more about the actual and potential harm caused by this.

FH, my H posted here in the beginning. He was as fogged out as any WS could be. He was missing OW and thought she was his true love. I remember FWSs posting to him, trying to help him get his foggy head out of the nether regions. Can you imagine what it would have done to him to read here advice given to people whose Ms resulted from As? A little bit of a mixed message there.

John Gottman just came out with a marriage book, with a chapter on infidelity. He said what so many others have said, that BSs experience PTSD. Is it any wonder that many of us BSs are triggered by a WS/OW now Med to her A partner being given advice on MB? I NEVER ever hated anyone in my life before our OW. It's taken me over 2 yrs of hard work to not think about her every day.

This is about sensitivity. If JJ really understood the extreme trauma caused by infidelity would she even be posting here? If this becomes a common occurance on MB I would NEVER recommend this place to anyone who is experiencing infidelity. It just would not be a safe enough place anymore.

I think what would have been nice is this. For those of you who are willing and able to help someone like JJ open a group on yahoo groups for example. Give her the help she needs there. It's not a matter of just staying away from her thread. It's the knowledge that the thread even exists in the first place that is the problem. It just is too big of a contradiction to condemn As and then at the same time help someone in an A-Based M in the same support forum. JMHO!

Now this is a very honest assessment on the pain caused a BS and the dilemna of people like this coming on here. And a very valid point, I might add!

So, where do these people go? Do they wander aimlessly due to their previous adultery? Do they have a special place they would go? Do they get a special blog screen here on MB so as not to hurt the great work being done here?

There arent easy answers to this, folks.

Honestly, MM, I see the Bathsheba thing as a non-issue in the case of David.

His only legitimate wife, if she still lived, was Michael.

With thousands of wives and thousands more concubines pre-dating Bathsheba, just about all David had all his life were adulterous liaisons.

Back up to Jacob. Three of his wives were illegitimate, yet God blessed all 12 of his sons.

Isaac was practically the only one who is not recorded as having committed adultery.

God blessed Solomon, not because of his parents' adultery, but in spite of it. It is a wonderful message that God can still use us magnificently for His glory, even if our parents have sinned grievously.

I do not consider God blessing Solomon any more of a blessing on adultery, or legitimizing of a 'marriage', than God blessing the sons of both Sarah and Hagar, or Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, and Zilpah.

And, to repeat for emphasis, with Bathsheba being a many-thousandth wife, there is no way she was David's legitimate wife, affair or no affair.

MM... if you have not read the article, I would suggest you do so. It is an inspiring read. One interesting things the Rev says is that he will not say that those that have not chosen Christ will not be saved. I found that comment to be of surprising... as it was to the reporter... so much so that comment from the Graham foundation (which was much more narrow that Graham's).

I consider that a "major" yet here is one of the leading crusaders of our time saying that issue is not set in stone.

hopeandpray - This is certainly your opinion, and just as certainly you are entitled to hold whatever opinions you wish. No one argues that the "presence" of someone seeking help, who in their past DID commit adultery, isn't painful to many others who are in the midst of a similar tribulation. But let me ask you to clarify your statement, "This is the core issue, not forgiveness or acceptance." If forgiveness and acceptance of sinners is NOT a "core issue," then why are Betrayed Spouses counseled to "take back" a spouse who has committed adultery? Why not simply "kick them to the curb" and be done with it?

I suspect the argument would be something along the lines of "well, that is different, they are still married." Okay, but the Scripture gives the Betrayed Spouse the right to divorce and does NOT say that they MUST take back their spouse into the marriage. Why? Because that marriage ended with the adultery and the level of forgiveness (of the sinner) and acceptance (of the fact that the sin cannot be "undone") is so difficult for "mere humans" and their God-given emotions.




I would be in agreement with you if all someone was trying to do was to seek to "legitimize" adultery and/or a marriage that was a "marriage where one or both of spouses had committed adultery in marrying someone other than a divorced spouse who was previously the Betrayed Spouse in their former marriage," simply because they wanted their current marriage to be "accepted" by Man.

But when a believer receives forgiveness from God for ALL of their sins, they ARE "legitimate" in the eyes of God simply because God made THAT promise to Jesus for what HE did for us "while we were yet sinners."

So I am curious as to what specific Scripture references you a speaking about when you said; "Yes, they can be forgiven but their M will never be legitimate in God's eyes (scripture supports this)."

Perhaps you could cite those references. It would be much easier for me to try to understand what you are saying if I can look them up in the Word and see what God has said that you are interpeting as "never legitimizing" a marriage of sinners.




Okay, I'm not sure I agree with you that it's not "MB based" to help someone attempt to recover their marriage, be it 1st, 2nd, 3rd, between adulterers, etc. Where DOES one draw the "line?"

I will tell you that I am one of those BS's who IS a "forever changed BS," but I am changed in my submission to God regardless of how I "feel" about something. Believe me, I have had my "share" of struggles in rebuilding my marriage, even to the point of asking God, "What? Forgive again!?! Why?" My Pride talks loudly at times, wanting me to tell God, "isn't seven times ENOUGH?!?" "Surely, Lord, you didn't mean that ALL sin is forgiven and they are made 'white as snow' in your eyes?" "'Their sin' was so horrendous that is overshadows any of my own sins and cannot be forgiven by you, much less by me."

I understand the pain and the difficulty a BS faces. I also have a modicum of understanding for what a WS faces when they have to deal with the fact that they caused so much pain and anguish. But that does NOT negate God's forgiveness and healing for those who DO put their trust and hope in Jesus Christ, regardless of whether they were the BS or the WS, remain married or divorce, remarry in adultery or remarry without adultery (the Faithful BS). SIN is "sin" to God and Christ's blood "covers it all" for believers whether we "like it or not." Thank God that it does, because NONE of us is without sin and none of us merits "legitimacy" in God's eyes based on anything we do, or don't do.


God bless.