TroubledH,

Nice of you to let us all know. None of us would think it were rude if you disappeared, I don't think, but most of us would be wondering what happened.

Wishing you and MrsTH the best, do come by occassionally and let us know how things are. I look forward to reading any posts by MrsTH too to get her perspective on things.

CalifWoman

I can't thank you enough, he did completely change his thinking in the last month or so. Evberything you have talked about has been so real for me. He pushed the child and now he sees that wasn't a great idea. The child is innocent, I can't yank the relationship between her and my boys. They would ask too many questions and the attachment right now even though she is just 3 yrs. old I am just going to have to figure out how I am suppose to be the go-between in 5 months? Do you all feel the need to have contact with them because that is the furthist from my core. Troubled H sais you keep your friends close and you keep your enamies closer. I think I would like to move to Ice Land, Well that is not possible! I guess I will let the Harley's explain that one too me.For 185$ I hope they don't give TH'S advice,HEHE. If he really needs you guys than he should post. It just seemed like he was not hearing you fully, but than Imagine if he was that compasoinate in the way you have spoken I would think something was horrably wrong. I married a man. JR ring a bell,HEHE. That is the whole problem in the first place, they don't think like us so we have to take that into consideration. Life is so complicated. I don't want to have to make decisions based in lousy choices!

WOW, Mrs. TH. I am glad to see you here. Seems like you and TH were on at the same time too!! Cool.

Anyway, I think that you ALL need to slow way down, take a deep breath and DO NOTHING for a bit. There is absolutely no reason, to rush any of this. None at all.

I understand your concern for your children, it is where your concern needs to be. I wouldn't be worried about ceasing all contact with oc right now. It has only been what, a month???

I like that you are going to counsel with the Harleys. It is vital that TH hear you. I think he was coming around, but he has to know from the depths of his soul, that you and your children are the ones who have been hurt here. You and your children are the ones who were betrayed. I know that TH even thinks I must hate oc. Nope. I just don't see oc as the above all, most important person in the mix. That is where so many people get tripped up. I see YOUR responsiblity being YOUR children. Somebody has to put them first, or they get run over by the "oc is innocent, mantra" Sure, they are. But so are your children and so are you.

Maybe it is time for everyone to just calm down and back up . OW/oc can go on with their lives for a bit, I'm sure oc will be fine. Then start with the basics, and that is what you want and what you will have in YOUR marriage. Don't think what is best for your kids, or oc, or even your husband. Think of what YOU want and what YOU will have in your life. Being totall, 100% honest. That is your starting point. You don't have to see the oc to make it easy on your husband or the oc, etc. If you choose to have oc in your life, then YOU get to have lots of input. Do you want to have the ow involved? Or do you want a 3rd party to take care of the handoff? I know of people who have the handoff at a church. Stuff like that. If you have contact, how much? Since your husband is the father of that child, the ow can't prevent YOU from doing anything with/for that child, as long as you have your husbands blessing. Afterall, he has just as much right to make decisions as she does. Do not allow the ow to play the games....which are very common...... She may have a fit when YOU pick up the child, or if YOU take the child to the store, etc. Suddenly the reality that you are in her childs life, but SHE IS NOT IN YOUR HUSBANDS LIFE, drives them to be aggressive. They start toying with you. Playing games.

Just take care of YOU cause you matter too. This isn't just about the oc. Not even close. This is YOUR life, and YOU owe it to your children to provide them a stable loving home. YOU are all they have right now. Fight for them to live a live of calm and peace. They shouldn't have to shoulder the sin of their father.

But please, slow down. Breathe and take care of yourself. Do not let the OW/OC situation drive your decision. THEY ARE NOT IN YOUR MARRIAGE. YOUR MARRIAGE IS YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND.

Good Luck

>I think I would like to move to Ice Land

Meet you there! I'm considering the next boat.

Hugs MrsTH (MRSTH)

LynnG,
I am so glad you posted what you did to Mrs.TH. I absolutely agree with all you've posted. It is Mrs.TH's life~ It's what I've been trying to say here but not with the right words. Her opinion DOES count.

So glad about the session w/the Harleys, MrsTH. They will help you out. They were great with me and my H, and I have a young friend using their advice now.

And Dealan-de, I'm praying for ya~ Things will settle down soon. You've come too far to give anything up.
You know, when I was thick into our problems, I wanted to live in Kosovo. To me it seemed all they worried about was sweeping out their dirt floored tents and dinner.... so simple.... And here I was worrying and crying about everything.

sorry for the TJ.

Mrs.TH praying for you too.

It is what we have been trying again and again to say, slow down, fix the marriage, and then together figure a way that will make you both happy. It takes time, but the time is worth it if done right the first time. If not you will be looking at years of frustration, and all the children will feel that. Doing it right way is better for you, your marriage and the children.

when you have your appointment, be very very open and honest exacatly how you feel, get all the dirt out now, so it can be dealt with and able to move on, not being very honest in the session, is just to keep building up inside you and resement and bitterness will set in. this time is very crucial, on building a strong foundation for your marriage.

Good luck hun and will keep you in my thoughts

Well I guess this means I get to post again.

Lynn, please elaborate on:


Exactly what burdens are my sons going to shoulder?


How should MrsTH go about this?


Really?????????
Last time I checked I was at home last night. In fact I was watching the kids most of the day while the Mrs was shopping. I also went to work to make sure my family was provided for. I gave them each a hug and kiss before I went to work this morning. I saw my family at the park today for lunch. I pushed my youngest son on the swing.
Ect............

Lynn, let's ask MrsTH this:

MrsTH, do you think I am good father to our sons?

I think MrsTH might be in a better position to make a judgment like that.


TH

See ya at home tonight MrsTH!!!!! :-)

Hey! Don't let that boat leave without me!

TH, don't get so defensive with Lynn. Coming from THIS side of the OC fence ITA with what she said to your W. She is NOT saying you aren't a good father, she IS saying that during your A and until you fully "get it" (and I know you will) your W is the ONE consistant presence in your son's lives.

Your kidding right?

Look, I am trying to play nice with Lynn, really I am, but I think my questions are fair. She put it out there, I would like more detail and justification for it.

There was one or two other statements above that I'll just "let go".

TH

No, I am not kidding cuz she really is trying to help your DW. I know hard to let it all go isn't it? Did you call the Harley's yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I understand you all perfectly, and yes he is now giving us all the attention we deserved for so long. Did he step away from the family, absolutly,and does he have to make up for it YES.We do need to call the harleys and make things agreeable for both of us.

TH agreed to the visitation schedual and did not get a lawyer. Paperwork is all signed by a judge now.If we miss two visits she will take away his visitation rights. If I take that away from TH he would be so anguished and it would affect our household and probably put him in a state of depression. I want him to be able to work on our relationship. Right now my mil has to be at every visit. I really wanted the ow parents to be the go between. In the paperwork it stated that she was to be in eye site of the visitation. I said absolutely not so she agreed to just do the drop off but her parents think she is there. Even when she drives 3 hrs. to my mil house. She has lied to her parents and told them that was happening and its not. TH sais leave it alone.I wanted to rite a letter to thier house because she lives with them and ask if they would please be the go-between but I am not sure?

Shoulder the sin of their father:
Translation....
Mrs TH is their Mom. If she's unhappy the whole family will feel it. She's unhappy TH, she's troubled.
Your sons 'burdens ' are to explain in the future just how their sister doesn't have sweet Mrs.TH for a mom.

MrsTH should see a lawyer (if you haven't already given too much to ow) and protect her kids, get the child support before too much is given to ow for hers and yours offspring, leaving crumbs for the Mrs. It is often done in most states.
You come across as a flippant fool TH~

You can't possibly proclaim love for the mother of your boys and wife of all of these years and still seem as protective of oc/ow and yourself~

My h told me it will take you some time to see the fool you are. I am living witness to his testimony.

My h was home at night too after d-day, in body, not mind, so I beg you to let us interject where we see fit about your actions.

Dr. Harley or his help will work it out.


You are so far deep into the fog, it'll take the Titanic and everyone from that era to help you see just what your wife sees and feels, let alone your young sons.

I bid you the best of life with your family, but you must come to terms with something, you do not get to call the shots. MrsTh is alive and well and has a mind.

Sorry Mr.TH You are way too defensive.
Debi

You are kidding right??? I cannot believe that the OW is walking all over you like that MrTH!! (sigh) that is why we have stressed so much to get attorney! Do it the legal way, DNA and lawyer!! I am so glad in my state they have the new law that any child born out of wedlock that a DNA test HAS to be done now. I just cant get over that you gave your wife no choice in the beginning but let OW call shots like that :-(


Once you take full responsibilty of your actions you will see exactly what we are trying to say. For me the sin is not about OC it is about the sin of the A. And your sin will somehow someway effect the way they turn out. You might not see it now but someday you will. My hope with my COM is that they learn what NOT to do in a marriage.


why?

They afraid that you will hurt her?? You have proven already to be a better person. And no matter what they think you are her step mother. As long as you are married to H you are that. You did not have a choice in that, it wasnt like you met H and he had children already. there you would of had a choice, marry him and become their step mom or move on. But you wasnt left that choice, she made that decision for you, by sleeping with your H she chose you to be her child other mom.

These are very very good examples why the marriage should of been placed first. You two need to fix it first then together as man and wife stand as a united front. Decsion should of been made together and backed each other up. With that the OW would not have all the say so, because he is the father and can advantage of all his rights.


Dont forget about youself, right now you are the one that you should be concerned about. Find what is really going to be really make you happy, find what it will take for you to forgive and go on, once you are happy you can only then truely make others happy. The ball is in your court dont give that up to fast, make sure that the marriage is on more sound ground before you let it go.


Please believe that part it is soooooo true!!! I am proof of that, you can trust me or I can give you all the details how bad it can get and so many more can tell you their stories.


If that is what you really need then stand firm, dont give it as a something you hope or a choice, give it as what HAS to be done. marriage is the most important thing right now.

TH,


Shouldering the sins of the father? Well for starters, you are shoving the oc down their throats. You have threatened their safe haven by demanding visitation with the oc, and your wife hasn't even had a chance to grasp what the heck has happened here. NOW I read where you have a signed visitation agreement.....boy this all happened at warped speed. And your wife feels that YOU will be upset if she doesn't agree with all of this????????? How is this NOT going to affect your children? Your wife thinks you would be all depressed, etal if you don't have contact, but what about HER depression? Do you think about what this has done to HER? How is that going to affect your children?

Fight for calm and peace??? By standing up for her children and saying NO....STOP.....until this marriage is on strong footing, healed we will not be doing visitations in this home, or making deals on visitation UNITL WE KNOW WHAT WILL WORK FOR ALL....Yet, you have signed an agreement that if you miss two visitations you will lose that right???? What state are you in? What happens to the ow if she doesn't let you see oc on two occaisions? GET A LAYWER NOW and get a decent set up here. You were lead around and being contolled by the OW....which is why the COM ONLY HAVE THEIR MOTHER right now. You are allowing what is "best for ow/oc" to shut out the COM. The visitation agreement has proven such.

How sad.

You may be a good dad, when you are home. But you are putting, and have put the needs of the oc above those children....again, by signing the visitation agreement BEFORE you and your wife even had a chance to see if this was going to work. You wife is the only adult in this mix who the COM have. You certainly don't seem to care if their home life is ripped apart. If you did, you would have hired an attorney to PROTECT your family from this very agreement you signed.

I think your wife needs to speak to a laywer today and get herself protected. I remember you saying how you would leave her for the OW if she didn't agree to the oc being around, and how you would take her children from her too.

I know you dislike me. Understandable, being that I am totally understanding of the ****** your wife is in, and how cruel this all looks towards your COM. But can you at least step back and think about what this is doing to your family? Do you really believe that bringing that oc into your home is going to fix anything? Why is the oc's feelings more important then your COM?

One thing I am not TH, is someone's lady...I am my own woman with my own ideas...they happen to be very much like others on this board. But I would like to answer your question. When my H and I decided on NC, I didn't ask him to do anything, and I get the impression that many of the ladies didn't either. Their H's made the decision about NC...I don't look at it like he is casting away another child. I want him not to look away from one child, but to look out for the other children. He had no problems acting as though he had no responsibilities once....I don't accept that he can't put US first now. There are difficult decisions to be made...I didn't make this difficult, the COMs didn't make this difficult and the OC didn't make this difficult. Everyone will have to make sacrifices....and I'm not sacrificing my state of mind for the benefit of the OC. It is a child and they are innocent, but so am I and so is my family and NOONE, not even the OC tops that.

No one is asking you to cast away OC, just to take the proper steps to heal your M and to hire a lawyer and get better visitation arrangements. I for one am shocked you forced your W's hand in all of this and then agreed to that kind of visitation. You are allowing xOW wayyyyyy too much control. OC is yours too (well we assume she is, since you havn't had DNA testing), you should have more of a say in her life. She's 3 yrs old right, not 3 months old. If OC is a concern of your's, you should consider standing up for your rights, if xOW gets upset, ohfreakinwell. I think your W would respect you more if you'd stop cowtowing to the xOW's demands and really show that the OC is your interest, not making the xOW "happy".

I am shocked xOW tried to demand visitation to be in her sight, do you get to see how she is treating OC 24/7? You have to trust in the fact she is well taken care of, and vice versa. She should know you wouldn't hurt OC, you've never demonstrated ill will towards the OC, right??? This is just another example of xOW attempting to control the situation, because you stayed in your M.

You know I can't jump on him for this one...even though I'm trying ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)....men hate confrontations, especially when they feel guilty about the stitch. I'm sure that Mr. TH doesn't want to cause waves with the OW because he feels responsible for what has happened and Mrs. TH wants him to take a stand (with her) to show the OW the boundaries that have been set in motion.

Let me tell you a story Mr. TH that may help you a little. My H was married previously, and after we got married, his Ex would only call him on his cell phone...which I found utterly disrespectful...and told him so. For him, it wasn't a big deal...so I told her how I felt, and she basically ignored me, even though I said it very nicely, and continued to call him on the cell. She was expressing to me that as long as my H allowed it, I could go to ******. So finally I put my foot down with my H...and I told him that I wanted him to call her, IN FRONT of me and to inform her that because I felt it to be disrespectful, she should contact him via the house phone. If you disrespect my wife...you disrespect me. When he finally did it (which was right around DDay (I made him do alot of stuff after DDay)....his Ex realized that HE wouldn't allow her to disrespect me therefore....her attitude and behavior changed.

What I think would be important for Mrs. TH right now is for you to set those boundaries with the OW and do it as a united front with your wife. Does any of this make sense?

Well, like I said before, this was going to be interesting.

As far as not liking Lynn, there are glimmers of compassion that I can see. I am not interested in trowing rocks at her anymore. I know where she stands, she knows where I stand. I apperaciate the time she has taken to post to me.

Gem,

I am disapointed in you, you can call me a fool all you want and be insulting. Shout it from the rooftops if it makes you feel better. I don't care. If you want to convince me or other men to think your way, take a look how Kimmy will often write to me. She is one lady I do truly RESPECT. I can accept blunt, I will ignore rude. No, this does not mean I think Kimmy agrees with me or how I have done things. But I do know that she has TRUELY tried to help me and my W.


To whom it may concern,

There is a misunderstanding about how the visitation works.
WE WILL NOT LOSE VISITATION as it was described above.
I have explained to MrsTH HOW IS REALLY DOES WORK. I thought I was clear before, but apparetly I was not. I guess I can thank this board for bring this issue up. I will let her describe it for you all if she so chooses.

As far a DNA and Lawyers.

The daughter is mine, I know it. I have ZERO dought. If the W wants it, it can be agranged to get a DNA test. I dought OW would object, she was expecting it. As far as who the legal father is. Well I have a FINDING OF FACT in a COURT OF LAW that states I am the father.

It does appear to me that many of you would be happy if I went to war with OW. To me that creates a lot of drama that my family does not need. CS in our case is not breaking the bank. It not free, but not devastating like I hear so many cases here.

The legal aspects of this case is OVER. CS and Visitation is SET. OW has agreed that she(the OW) is not to be present.
Visitation is considerably more generous to us than many others in Washington State could expect to get.

Are there a few hoops to jump in the first year? Yes. But that compared with the drama of court is a small price to pay in both money AND emotional toll.

OW to my last knowledge is moving on with her life. I don't get emails, telephone calls, letters, etc........

My W is not harased, emailed, called, ect... by my former OW. There are no threats, or 'suggestions" about how we are as parents when the daugther is with us. When she (daughter) is with us, WE ARE HER PARENTS. My W has the same authority as I do when daugther is present. There is NO SPECIAL TREATMENT.

All communication is done thru my mom. I have asked mom not to give me any details about OW's life. The less I know the better.

I have chosen who I want to be with. It is my W.

My W and I have now talked more about how to deal with my daughter. WE ARE BOTH AGREED THAT VISITATION IS OK. Sorry if that makes some of you mad, but I don't give a hoot wether you all like it or not. I am only concerned about the opinion of my W on this matter.

I love my W, and she loves me. That about sums it up.
WE BOTH FEEL WE CAN MAKE IT.

TH

Mr. TH,

I personally am happy if you and your wife have come to a consensus. I think that is all we want...concensus...no ultimatums. Noone here can even try to act as though we have walked in your shoes or that of your wife's.

I can tell you personally that I don't want you or my H at war with anyone, not even the woman that he betrayed me with, but I also don't want friendliness, closeness, or anything like it. I want business, and business only.

I believe that you both can make it and I'm happy for you. I think the reason that some speak so highly of doing things legally...people change with the times....as long as everyone gets along and one person is doing what the other wants...there are no problems, but the minute someone feels used or overlooked, it can get shady...when it's done legally and cordially, it's written and the parameters are set, but if your comfortable then I agree that you and your wife should do what you feel comfortable doing. Its just a suggestion, one that saves alot of heartache at times...but I have also heard of things working out well without legalities.

I wish you and Mrs. TH nothing but the best. I mean that sincerely.