Mike,

Continue reading up on Plan A and build a great one. Remember that it isn't becoming a doormat for your WW. Also, do nothing to enable contact or the continuation of the A. Do everything you can to not lose your temper. Vent here, be nice at home.

If OM is indeed moving out of town, maybe she will be ready to "move on" and figure out where she is right now. (WSs always want to "move on") Once she has kept NC for a couple of weeks, the fog may begin to clear and you may actually start to make some progress in meeting her ENs as part of plan A.

A note of caution, Plan B is only called for after a carefully executed Plan A. Don't jump to Plan B out of frustration. If the A has stopped, work on making yourself indispensable to her and her mental well-being. Make you the best you that you can be.

You have to decide up front how long you will attempt Plan A. Some can only do it for a few weeks. Some can do it for a year. Six months is about right (for men - a little less for women). After the set time, if no progress is being made at all and the A is still continuing, then Plan B stops the fire drill and preserves any good feeling you may have left for WS.

The reason for exposure is to put pressure on the A to bring it to an end. Once it is over, no further exposure is needed. Continued contact may be exposed to those that have already been told. (For newbies-exposure does not mean putting up a billboard along the highway and taking out a full page add in the newspaper). Only expose to people who can help end the A.

Educate yourself in the fog-speak of the WS. When she says, “I want a divorce.” Say “I don’t do divorce, I do marriage.” When she says, “You aren’t making this any easier.” You say, “No, I am not making it easy to destroy our family.” Just look up “reverse babble” and be ready for anything. (maybe someone could bump this for him)

Remember, you did not cause this and it isn’t your fault. If you want to recover your M, be ready for a lot of really hard work, maybe getting nothing in return for quite a while. In my case, I was very blessed to have friends and relatives who just simply told WW that what she was doing was WRONG, and told her early, often and emphatically.

Mark

Mike - the key here is that contact between OM and your wife means affair is ongoing so exposure is justified. You expose to people that can have an influence on her actions and assist you in ending the affair. In my opinion, the exposure you have done from your description fulfils that purpose.

Your marriage can survive your wife's anger - it cannot survive an affair. I am sure you don't want to suffer through 4 years of broken NC.

Am I correct in assuming that your d-day was in April? 6 months ago?

Have you been doing a good Plan A? I agree with ML - you need to be looking at moving to plan B if you have been doing a good plan A for 6 months. Have a look at the links to Pep's Plan A below.

Mike:

Sorry about your difficult case. I read your story and your wife is not in withdrawal, she remains in the affair. The reason I am writing is my FWW was also dating a single guy. After spending a bunch of dough tracing phone numbers, etc, I found out the guys name, where he lived etc. I had a friend check his family out in the insurance business and I now had his parents name, etc. I called his parents. They immediately blamed my wife for allowing the affair to happen, but it allowed me to tell them to back their son off of my wife. I told them that I was going after his job and ruin his carreer at work if they didn't do it, etc. They were furious, but they called the son and the loverboy immediately called my then WW. His parents took a stand against my wife and me and the son joined their position. This was the first "fight" that the lovers had. Exposure brought reality to the affair and now there was a price to pay for the affair. That call was the beginning of the end of the affair.

If you allow her to negotiate with you, you become an enabler of the affair. You must be firm. Today she hates you and likely loves him. This was the same with my then WW. I played hard ball with her and told her everyone important in her life, plus her employers, were going to know everything about the lovebirds and their reputations will be ruined. It was exposure and the threat of more damaging exposure that caused the affair to end. It takes months for any reconnection with you to begin and it takes a couple of years to get past it completely, but there is hope.

Your wife will lie daily to you, even if she has never been known to lie. Do not trust her words, but trust her actions. Put computer bugs on your computer, make her quit her job to get away from him, if it is a workplace affair, and get records of all her phone bills. Hire a PI if you suspect it is still going on. Fight fire with fire and play the game for keeps. Your family is at stake. This is a time for real tough love but tell her you have chosen to forgive her, but the affair must stop. Let he know that if it continues, you will go for custody, etc. Bring reality to the affair everywhere you can. If the affair becomes more painful than enjoyable, she will stop the affair. You job is to bring on the pain. Do not hit or harm her but there has to be a price of humiliation. Think of everyone she would dissapoint if they knew she was unloyal. Tell her who you are going to tell then expose. If it continues, tell more people, etc. She will know that you are serious and it might stop the affair. She will hate you but you have to understand she does already. She has to justify her right to cheat on you. It is very difficult to end these things and you are going to tested to the max. Be strong and take it one day at a time.

TooSoon

Mark, Kahuna & TooSoon,

Thanks for all of your support; god knows I need you all. They know each other for about 3 yrs, affair started little over a year ago and it got hot and heavy about six months ago. I found out about it two weeks ago which is on 10/5/06 (D-Day).

We’re going to our second MC tomorrow; hope this is when her true honesty finally makes its appearance. I still be firm with my boundaries and would not tolerate it in my marriage but I must walk a fine line between the boundaries and LB. If contact continues, should I add more people on the exposure list? I’m hearing different opinions here.

I truly believe that the A is over and there will not be any additional exposure so I’m working hard on Plan A. I still have a ways to go with Plan A.

Please comment.

If your wife doesn't break off all contact with the OM, I think you have no choice but to continue to disrupt the affair. When I began exposing, my then WW said I blew all chances to get her back. She did not want her mother and her co-workers to know about her affair, but she didn't want to end the affair. I stairstepped exposure but I kept exposing so she knew that I was capable to live up to my threats. I finally gave her an ultimadum, stop the affair or I am going to workplace to tell everyone and then to her mother's house to tell her.

It wasn't simple though, it was ****** for a few months untill I reached the end of my rope. Lovers thrive on secrecy and when exposed, they are scrutinized by everyone. So many BS's allow the WS's to negotiate a deal that allows the affair to continue. Remember, WS's lie and lie and lie. They love their lover more than their spouse. It can turn back the other way but it sure is a long painful road back. If she continues to defend her "friendship" with the OM to the MC and to yourself, assume she is not ready to end the affair.

TooSoon

Right now all really close friends and family members know about the A. She does not want her distant relatives and distant friends to know which I'll not do unless the A and contact continue. Now, she's not in an office A, should I expose to her boss and close assoicates if it continues.

Last night, she asked if she could continue going to the place where she met the OP with her girl friends. She and her GF whom I trusted will make sure he's not there. I told her that is fine, but I'll be there as well. I said it's ok since he wouldn't be there, right? This pisses her off because I'm again over bearing and controlling in her eyes. Oh Well!!

I be interested in tonight's MC of what she have to said. I think she does not contact the OP at this time, but who knows for sure.

Well, WW refused to go to MC yesterday evening so I went by myself. She refused to go because during the day I asked her brother for access to her cell phone records (its in her brother's account) but he went and told her. I now know where I stand with him and her family (blood is thicker than mud).

This cause a big fire storm in her eyes as me being snooping and watching over her shoulders. During her heated conversation, she said many hurtful things hoping that I would go file for a DV. I was devastated and depressed so I didn't go home for the night. Alone but surprisingly peaceful.

Hey Mike, I can understand why you wouldn't want to go home for the night, but whatever you do, don't leave your house. You might have to get a court order to get back in! If anyone has to leave, it should be HER since she is the one who had the affair.

She doesn't want you to snoop because she is hiding something. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

I really like what you did here:
You did good there! Sorry about all the confusion on exposure. The general rule is to stop exposing if the affair is over, re-expose if there is more contact, and expose to essential people in the WS' life.

Have you exposed to the OM's family?

My concern here is that your W seems to have no intention of ending contact with the OM and no intention of recovering your marriage. The "2 month plan" is just a ruse so she can say she "did everything I could to save the marriage" before she moves on.

Melodylane,

I agree with your comments, I wouldn't move out of the house, it was just for the night. I went dark on her since yesterday afternoon and she is having a hard time and worrying about my well being. She left number of voice mails crying and asking me to call and go home & work it out with her. I want to call and run home but I know I just can't do that everytime she wants me to. I will stay dark and go home sometime tonight.

The OP is single and his family lives in another state. I don't have their information or I would.

Mike:

I had found My wife's OM number on her cell phone. I paid a company to cross reference the number and got his name. That told me his state he lived in. He commuted from an adjacent state ot my state. I wrote down every license plate parked in the parking lot from that other state.

I had a friend in the insurance business and I asked him for a special favor. I had my WW's OM's name and several license plate numbers. The insurance business has more information on customers and non customers than you can ever imagine. In one day, I was given the OM's address, date of birth, driving history, where he lived each year he was in college, and his parents name, address, and phone number and they were not even customers of the insurance company my friend worked at.

That allowed me the ability to call the parents which began the unraveling of the affair. I am sorry, your WW still shows signs of being in the relationship and you must accept her ongoing actions until it ends. I hope you know someone in the insurance business to help you. Pay a friend a hundred bucks, but get to the parents.

TooSoon

Short threadjack:

TooSoon, please note I’ve send you THIS POST the other day. In case you’ve missed it.

Suzet

Mike - when she huffs and puffs about exposure I might be inclined to ask, "So what's new? You were damaging the marriage before; I couldn't allow that harm to continue unacknowledged. If you're not doing anything wrong, we should announce your affair to the world!"

I strongly believe the A has ended or near destruction. The OP doesn't want to have anything to do with it and wants her to stop contacting him; my WW appears to want to pursuit him for the life of her. She has extremely deep feelings for the OP.

Latest of what she said:

1. I’m staying in this marriage for the kids.
2. Why don’t you make it easier for me and just divorce me?
3. Why I wouldn’t file for a divorce myself? Because you’ll put up too much of a fight and would cost a lot of money; you’re going to tell the whole world for what I done.
4. I'll sleep in this bed but there will not be any intimacy and don’t touch me in the night. It will be a very long time before any affection would happen, if ever.

Last night, she tried to start a fight with me but I just retreated and went to sleep early. I’m just going to vent here a little:

I finished making a soup she started so she could go to her girl friend’s house for a yoga party the entire Sunday afternoon. I took care of the kids, went for a bike ride with them to the park and have a snack there; missed the last half of my favorite football team’s game (which I don’t mind); finished the soup and clean all the dishes and appliances by hands. With all that, she came home and complains the soup is not smooth enough which I ignored her comment. She then went on to say why didn’t I put the dirty dishes in the dish washer instead washing them by hands; she say she’s planning to use the dish washer after dinner. I said, “I didn’t look in the dish washer and didn’t know she’s planning to use it that night, next time I’ll look.” After dinner as she was cleaning up, she again getting irritated at me for not putting the dishes in the dish washer. I just told her that she ignored what I have done all afternoon but instead get angry at me for not putting the dishes into the dish washer. The dishes were cleaned, may not be at the same place you want them to be nevertheless they’re all cleaned. I just went and took a shower and head into bed. What a BIT_H!!

Thanks, I need this.

It has been three weeks since D-Day. Here is the latest:

At our latest MC (this Wed), WW said she’ll try to work on our marriage. She also agreed that she will tell me if she made contact with the other person and I agreed that I’ll not make judgment (or exposure) against her. She claims that she didn’t make further contact for over a week.

Well, the next night my source told me that she in fact made contact with the OP the afternoon of our MC. I confronted her and finally got her to admit the contact (phone calls but no face to face since D-Day) was made. She said that she could not help it and I should understand how hard it is for her.

I talked to my MC and she said that WW will not stop contacting the other person and her resentment is growing more intense by the day. She strongly suggested that if I love her, I should let her go and let her find herself. Give her a separation and after 18 months, if she still feels the same way about the OP, I should grant her a divorce. MC thinks that she will be back a lot faster than I think. MC also said, if I make WW a prisoner of our marriage by threaten exposure, it will end up in a divorce anyway.

I think the MC does make sense, what do you think? With D-day only three weeks ago and Plan A for two weeks or so, this is basically Plan B. Is this too soon?

I need help big time guys.

I think your MC is full of doodoo.

Why not give your MC the link to this site and request that they read up on plan A and B and exposure here? That was the tactic I took with OUR MC about 3 months or so into our recovery.

Don't agree to no more exposure. Tell your wife it's a simple equation...NC=NE. No contact = No exposure. But, if she doesn't remain in NC, then you're going to be asking for all the help you can get to assist your wife in ending the affair. RE-READ how I said that.

Tell your wife the WHY behind exposure. Tell your MC that too. Make sure YOU know it, and your goal for exposure is exactly that.

You're going to these people to request their assistance in helping you and your wife end her affair. You would like them to talk with your wife and encourage her to end contact, you'd like them to be advocates for your marriage...you'd like them to assist you and your wife by letting you know when NC is broken. Get the picture?

Don't keep a bad promise. Tell your wife clearly that the reason you're exposing is because you're trying to get HELP for your marriage from your friends and family.

Obviously she can't help herself (you're supposed to understand why this is so hard on her). Tell her that you DO understand why it's so hard...you've learned about it here. She needs to make that same effort to understand what's so hard on YOU...and why YOU are doing the things YOU are doing too. You've made the effort to see her reasoning...you understand, and that's why you're taking the measures you are to end the affair and save your marriage.

Then shut up, and let her think about it. Don't discuss it further with her...she'll just try to turn it around. Simply give her all of that, and let her digest it. Make it clear that you have BOUNDARIES that you'll no longer accept her crossing...with results to enforce those boundaries. And that your boundaries are there to save your marriage, not to punish her.

And get rid of that MC if they can't figure out the premise behind what you're doing. Mine had never heard of MB before he met my wife and I...but could clearly see the method and benifits, and immediately started applying it where needed to our situation.

The problem is that I don't have others that will help by exposure. All the close friends and family already knows. They all know WW is screw up; my WW knows she is screw up. There really no one else to expose other than more distant friends and family but they will not help in my cause. It only seems that I'm taking revenge on her misdeed. This seems to push her further away toward the OP.

Isn't Plan B what my MC is suggesting?

Not really.

And you've not had time to do a decent plan A yet. Plan A typically takes some time to be effective...you're at 3 weeks out from d-day. Unless your love bank is already running on empty, it's WAAAAYYY to early for plan B. Go back and re-read the material on A and B. Heck...see if you can setup an appt with the Harley's themselves for counseling.

Perhaps you HAVE exposed your wife's affair to everyone. So, what are they doing to help you end the affair? " All the close friends and family already knows. They all know WW is screw up; my WW knows she is screw up." Isn't helping.

So are they trying to talk with her to end the affair? Putting pressure on her to do the right things? Do they know about this latest round of contact, or do they think she's actually in NC?

Seriously, get the books that they recommend here to help you through all of this. You need to understand how plan A works, what you should be doing, not be doing, and how to make it effective in your situation.

Plan A makes you the more attractive choice to your WS...OVER TIME. You quit being a doormat, become the best spouse and person you can be, and make the fixes you need to in order to improve YOUR part of the marriage. You also work hard to end the affair by using exposure and proper communication with your WS.

Plan B is a tool that is less designed to save your marriage, and more designed to help YOU deal with the situation. It COULD help save the marriage...but as I said, you're way to early in this to seriously look at doing this yet.

Read up, do your homework, contact the Harley's...and get a PLAN. That includes a timeline of how long you'll do what...or what triggers will cause you to modify your plan.

Owl,

Thanks for being here in my time of need, you don't know how thankful I'm. I totally agree with you that I'm wayyyy toooo early for Plan B. I need to focus on Plan A first.

I have told her that I'm going to give her this one contact, the next one will not be negotiated. I do have a problem with how to apply the boundaries without being LB. Everytime I asked for phone records and email account passwords etc.. and she get angry that I'm smothering and snooping on her which cause a great deal of LB. I know that she's hiding these things from me for her future contact use, but it still LB big time. Everything that I said or do turns into LBing in her eyes. I expected them but it still not helping my Plan A efforts.

I read SAA and started on HNHN, I'll finish it this weekend.

Thanks again.

Well, as far as her not liking the "snooping and smothering"...

Ask her if she understands that she destroyed your trust in her. Does she realize that you CAN'T trust her right now? She's TOLD you she's not trustworthy ("you should understand how hard this is on me"), she's SHOWN you she's not trustworthy (by the recent contact), and have seen that she's capable of doing things that she KNOWS will devestate you (by having the affair).

Given that, there's only one way for you to trust her again. By her SHOWING you that you can trust her. By doing the things that rebuild that trust. Such as sticking to NC, by being an "open book", by understanding that you have to SEE her being trustworthy. And you'll only SEE that by 'snooping'.

My wife fought with this too. For the first month after d-day, every week we'd go to MC, and she'd tell the MC that she was in NC. And every week, she'd resume contact. And every week, I'd confront her about it, both at the time and during MC.

This went on until she CHOSE to give our marriage a chance. She then stopped trying to contact OM...for about 3 weeks. Then he emailed her. She showed me that one (it came in while I was sitting next to her)...but DIDN'T tell me that she sent him another email the next day.

I caught it because I was 'snooping'. I'd hacked her email/IM accounts...and because of that one email on Monday, I started snooping and saw his reply to her on Wed...and waited all day Wed and Thu for her to admit to the contact. She didn't. Finally she broke down and asked me what was wrong...I asked her about the emails, and she realized I'd been reading them. She was FURIOUS!!! But...she was also busted. She tried resorting back to that "why can't we still be friends" spiel, which I REFUSED to accept. She asked me what I wanted...I told her I wanted her to end ANY contact with him...forever. She stormed downstairs and immediately sent him an NC letter that wasn't exactly what I wanted...basically asking for NC so it didn't hurt me anymore since I was reading her emails.

But...it sorta worked. She slipped up AGAIN that weekend and emailed him a Father's Day card...to which he replied with only "I can appreciate why you and [Owl} no longer want me to contact you, and respect that. So please respect it as well and no longer contact me." THAT was their last contact.

Sorry for the long version...but you get the picture.

A few months later, she told our MC that she understood why I snooped and was still snooping. It wasn't something against her...it was to reassure myself that it was safe for me to love her again.

Regardless...make it clear to her why you 'snoop'. Don't accept guilt for doing what's right. And also remember that she's simply not capable of thinking rationally about any of this at this point...the aliens still have her brains in the mothership. Just stick to plan A, hold your boundaries, and hang on for the long run.

As far as LB'ing by enforcing boundaries... don't yell, don't raise your voice or get angry. Don't take action in anger. When she crosses a boundary, breathe. Make sure you've made it VERY clear that this is a boundary before you speak with her about it. Then talk to her calmly, explain why what she did hurts and how it violates your boundary, and take whatever action you'd had planned to deal with that boundary violation.

Think of her as a little kid right now. She'll test limits, she's not capable of understanding 'why' you're doing what you're doing, and you can't trust her to do the right thing.

But eventually you WILL be able to. Make sense?

Yes, you do need help but it is in finding a qualified MC. Yours is a MORON who does not understand the first thing about infidelity. So, unless you want to lose your marriage, just flush that money for "counseling" down the toilet and save yourself the gas money. Your MC will land you in D court if you DO follow her advice.

Instead, follow Dr. Harley''s advice, a world reknowned psychologist and author who understands infidelity and has saved untold marriages. He specializes in infidelity, whereas your MC is so ignorant that she does not understand that seperation is about the WORSE advice she can give you. You cannot save a marriage if you are seperated. Your risk of divorce goes up dramatically when seperated. But your MC doesn't even know that.

Secondly, exposure of affairs is the most potent weapon you have in your arsenal. Affairs are contingent upon a fantasy and when exposed, it ruins the fantasy. It forces the infidels to see how sleazy they look through the eyes of others, which is devastating to the affair. Exposure often does not immediately kill the affair, but it hastens its death. this is why the infidels hate it so much!

But you do not "threaten" exposure. EVER. You just do it.

mike, do you have the book Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley? If not, I would get this book ASAP. Stick with the Marriage Builders principles. They are your best bet and LOSE this loser of a counselor you have. You will surely end up in divorce if you follow her bad advice.