I changed this thread's subject line to reflect my latest sega and my questions. Please read on and thanks so much.


A week after my WW moving out to an apartment, I found out about the year long A. She finally agreed to move back home, NC and MC. Here are some of my problems:

1. Since my wife only works 3 days a week, she have a lot of time to continue the A if she wants to.
2. She could use her office email and phone as her communication center if she wants to. I can’t get to them for verification.
3. We have gone to MC before when the A was ongoing and with me not knowing about it; of course it didn’t work since she lied thru the whole thing. She could do the same here to distract me.

I know this is all about trust which I don’t have a lot of right now. Please comment.

You shouldn't have a lot of trust right now.

I don't see a good way for you to check up on her, but her attitude can tell you a lot.

If she acts sorry, checks in with you often, tries as hard as she can, then you can go forward.

If she thinks it's time to "move on." If she doesn't seem sorry, if she tells you to "get over it," then I see big problems, and you really don't have anything.

Was this A with someone where she works?

Did she write a NC letter, then let you read it and mail it?

What is she doing to help you with your fears?

How are you treating her from day to day? Are you angry, or do you get along well at home?

SS

A WS has to EARN that F title.

It is not your job to trust her blindly and it is not your job to police her.

It is her job to come up with satisfactory answers/solutions to trust issues.

For example...what are some things she could do to PROVE to you that she is where she says she is..doing what she alleges?

What do you NEED to feel safe?

Thanks SS and noodle,

I believe she is still in withdrawn (only two weeks since D-Day) and still in the fog right now. So far, I think she is still doing N/C so it’s a good thing.

She told me this morning that she’s going to sleep in the guest’s room since she is not getting enough sleep; me waking her up and her waking me up because we both can’t sleep through the night.

Some of the things she said:
“I don’t want to work on the marriage; I’m only moved back home for the kids.”
“I don’t think this marriage will work because you’ll never trust me again.”
“Just because I’m not with the OP, doesn’t mean that I’ll be with you.”
“You should just let me go (DV) which would make it a lot easier.”
“You are suffocating me by watching over me (getting her email accounts, cell phone bills…), send me flowers, send me email with jokes, etc…”

What do you think? We’ll have our first couple MC tonight, I be interested in what she have to say.

SS,

No act of sorry, no check in period, not trying hard at all. No, it's not someone at work. It's someone from an leisure activity.
She didn't write NC letter, just agreement between the two of them. Actually, they agreed to split up but remain friends the day before D-Day.
No help with my fears at all since she thinks that I'm over bearing already.
I'm in Plan A, as little LB as possible, no anger, get along ok under the circumstand.

miketc,

Her comments that you listed sound a lot like my WS except the first; my WS has shown no sign of even considering moving back in so you're ahead there: being at home you will probably have some good opportunities for Plan A.

Could still be in withdrawal - it will take time.

The "remain friends" part is scary though - I think it is fog-speak for not ending the A. My WS continues to believe that she and OM can continue to be friends. And they have continued to have contact "as friends" after OM agreed to NC and told my WS NC since he was trying (not very hard) to reconcile with his wife.

love_left

love-left,

On going with Plan A. Remain friends my A_s; fog-speaking big time. She's having problem with NC now with me knowing about the A. The OM is not married, I wished he was for more exposure purpose but no luck there.

I still love her very much and want the marriage to work.

Thanks for the comments.

Sorry I don't have more to offer. I know how you feel.

love_left

Well, during MC she said that she have N/C with the OP but I found out otherwise that night. She said that she'll stay in the guest's room because we are keeping each other awake at night. Guess what, she carried our DD's cell phone into the guest bedroom and into a dresser. When I confronted her, she said she did this to piss me off becasue she know I was snooping. Why my DD's cell and not hers? Do I looking that stupid?

She finally confessed that she did contact OM last week. When I called the OP(first time), he actually told me that he didn't want and asked my wife never to contact him; He said what they did was wrong and he is sorry about the whole thing. My WW is the one who is doing all the pushing and approching him for contact. He doesn't want any part of it what so ever, he even told me that he is moving out of the state because of it and wish me and my family the best. My WW confirmed his story.

Now my WW is asking for a DV becasue I just notify more friends and family about her A and additional lies. She is pissed.

More comments please.

miketc,

Why would you believe anything coming out of either your WW or OM' mouths???????????????????????????????????????????????

However if your WW is pissed because you are exposing...CONGRATULATIONS you are doing at least one thing correctly!!!!

Please do more reading on this site and less time listening to her ramblings.

Best of luck

Does OM have a Wife?

Thanks Cymanca and BK,

No, the OM is single. This morning WW again asking for a DV and I told her she could file if she wants. I told her I'm not filing.

I have read a lot on this site already, could you guys suggest some that I should be concentrated on?

I exposed the A and lies to some of her closest friends when I first found out. At that time she didn't have much remorse and thinking that is her god given right for such an act.

After the latest lies and broken NC, I included some of my kid’s parents (soccer moms) in my email disclosure. This appears to really upset her, she told me I embarrass her and I screw my kid’s life up because how others would look at them. She told me what she did was wrong, but what I did is vicious and cruel. She said all I want to do is being revengeful and to punish her. Of course I told her this is not the case and I’m following the MB principles but all she wants now is to get a DV and move on.

Do you think I went over board with contacting some of the soccer moms? What should I do now other than read more on this site?

Mike:

If she is in NC then no further exposure is required. It can be revengeful to tell others, when the practical reason to do so is taken away. If she is still in contact then you have to do what you have to do. Explain to WS you are doing what needs to be done to save your marriage. Explain to the people you expose to what you are trying to do, and do not be judgemental or otherwise vengeful in your exposure to your friends, etc. Your W has made a mistake, a serious one, and vengeful exposure is humiliating to your spouse.

Now, I am the WS in my M. I stopped on D-day, and my BS did not need to expose to stop my A. But, two weeks later, she went to lunch with a GF of hers and explained everything, in a small restaurant, in our very small town, and she feels that she was indiscreet and others may have overheard. (Another diner was by themselves and close by and my W thinks she listened to everthing) I do not know where this "gossip" not "exposure" activity went, but I cheated, and I have to pay the price for that to my reputation, etc. I am defenseless to that. Your WS will realize this later.

You have alot of work to do. So does your WS. Read His needs, Her Needs and find out why your M went wrong several years ago.

I agreed with no expose if NC but what if she still keeps contact? I'm not sure there are more people I could tell.

bump, I'm changing this thread's subject line to best reflect my latest sega and questions. tx,

If she stays in contact then you should REexpose to key targets and then plan on moving to Plan B. Don't let her threats of divorce and "revenge" bother you; it is all meaningless blather designed to shut you up. No WS likes interference in the affair, so just expect an onslaught of threats.

You asked for an opinion with this question, so as one who endured 4 years of broken No Contact commitments before finally reaching "Recovered," my opinion is YES, you went not just "overboard," but way overboard.




It has been asked many times before by others, but let me ask you it again as something you need to think about. Do you want to be married or do you want to be right?

If the affair has ended, there is NO justification, imho, for further "exposure." It would be different if the affair was ongoing and your wife was refusing to end the affair and refusing to attempt to recover your marriage.




You are not following MB principles, imho. You are using them to justify your actions, actions that ARE an attempt to manipulate your wife. Her reaction is not at all unexpected. I suspect that she is also thinking it is more indication that her original decision to seek someone else in her life was correct.

If you don't change direction in a hurry, you WILL most likely end up divorced.

I am not discounting the pain you feel from lies and contact. I know those feelings very well and they are NOT easy to deal with. But you cannot allow yourself the "luxury" of feeling good by painting your wife as a very bad person to others, especially when those people have no burning "need to know." What you have done, in the "Best Case," has further complicated already difficult Recovery efforts.

Loving someone ALWAYS means having to say "I'm Sorry" when you have done something wrong or something that injures them. Your wife is responsible to God and to you for her actions that harm, or harmed, your marriage. You are likewise responsible for actions that harm your marriage. There is NO "easy road" to recovery from infidelity and, even though it's not "right" and isn't "fair," YOU are 'in control' of the Recovery process. Giving into your Taker and attempting to manipulate your wife into recovery through others who are directly involved in your lives (i.e., parents, kids, etc.) who might have a legitimate need to know, is wrong and harmful to recovery.

So do you love your wife, or do you just want a woman that you can call your "wife," but who you will dangle a sword over for the rest of your life?

If the answer is the former(which appears to be the case since you are trying to remain married), then you need to decide what you will do and what you will not do that can enhance the long term prospects of Full Recovery. If the answer is the later, then you don't need to change anything and you'll possibly have one (a wife), but not necessarily your current one.

Think about it.

God bless.

Mike, when we speak of exposure, we don't mean exposing to strangers, but to KEY PEOPLE in your lives, such as parents, close siblings, and possibly employers. Also included would be the OP's spouse, if any, and often his parents. It is a fairly tight circle of people.

Secondly, exposure should only take place if there is contact between the affairees. [except in the case of the OP's spouse, they should be notified NO MATTER WHAT even after the affair has ended]

And like I said earlier, don't worry about threats of divorce over exposure. That is a STANDARD reaction for affair interference.

Forever and Melody,

I’m sorry, I though Dr. Harley’s principle is that if the affair continue or if NC is broken, then additional disclosure is required to break the affair. Isn’t that what she done when she contacted the OP? Actually, I only added two of her closer friends whom happen to be soccer moms to the list; the rest is her closer friends and family members.

When I confronted her about the breaking the NC and dishonesty boundaries within a few days of D-Day, she said that she can’t and may not stop herself from contacting him nor could she promise that she’ll not lie to me in the future. She also told me that I have two months to change her mind or she wants to file for divorce. What would you have done differently if you were in my shoes?

I don’t mean to use the disclosure as a way to control and manipulate her to remain married. I have told her, if the marriage is so bad, she should file for a divorce and carry through with it; then she can do whatever she wants to do with her life. Until then, she is married and need to do the right thing.

I do love her and want to be married to her; I want to do the right thing so please help, I really need this.

Mike,

Continue reading up on Plan A and build a great one. Remember that it isn't becoming a doormat for your WW. Also, do nothing to enable contact or the continuation of the A. Do everything you can to not lose your temper. Vent here, be nice at home.

If OM is indeed moving out of town, maybe she will be ready to "move on" and figure out where she is right now. (WSs always want to "move on") Once she has kept NC for a couple of weeks, the fog may begin to clear and you may actually start to make some progress in meeting her ENs as part of plan A.

A note of caution, Plan B is only called for after a carefully executed Plan A. Don't jump to Plan B out of frustration. If the A has stopped, work on making yourself indispensable to her and her mental well-being. Make you the best you that you can be.

You have to decide up front how long you will attempt Plan A. Some can only do it for a few weeks. Some can do it for a year. Six months is about right (for men - a little less for women). After the set time, if no progress is being made at all and the A is still continuing, then Plan B stops the fire drill and preserves any good feeling you may have left for WS.

The reason for exposure is to put pressure on the A to bring it to an end. Once it is over, no further exposure is needed. Continued contact may be exposed to those that have already been told. (For newbies-exposure does not mean putting up a billboard along the highway and taking out a full page add in the newspaper). Only expose to people who can help end the A.

Educate yourself in the fog-speak of the WS. When she says, “I want a divorce.” Say “I don’t do divorce, I do marriage.” When she says, “You aren’t making this any easier.” You say, “No, I am not making it easy to destroy our family.” Just look up “reverse babble” and be ready for anything. (maybe someone could bump this for him)

Remember, you did not cause this and it isn’t your fault. If you want to recover your M, be ready for a lot of really hard work, maybe getting nothing in return for quite a while. In my case, I was very blessed to have friends and relatives who just simply told WW that what she was doing was WRONG, and told her early, often and emphatically.

Mark

Mike - the key here is that contact between OM and your wife means affair is ongoing so exposure is justified. You expose to people that can have an influence on her actions and assist you in ending the affair. In my opinion, the exposure you have done from your description fulfils that purpose.

Your marriage can survive your wife's anger - it cannot survive an affair. I am sure you don't want to suffer through 4 years of broken NC.

Am I correct in assuming that your d-day was in April? 6 months ago?

Have you been doing a good Plan A? I agree with ML - you need to be looking at moving to plan B if you have been doing a good plan A for 6 months. Have a look at the links to Pep's Plan A below.

Mike:

Sorry about your difficult case. I read your story and your wife is not in withdrawal, she remains in the affair. The reason I am writing is my FWW was also dating a single guy. After spending a bunch of dough tracing phone numbers, etc, I found out the guys name, where he lived etc. I had a friend check his family out in the insurance business and I now had his parents name, etc. I called his parents. They immediately blamed my wife for allowing the affair to happen, but it allowed me to tell them to back their son off of my wife. I told them that I was going after his job and ruin his carreer at work if they didn't do it, etc. They were furious, but they called the son and the loverboy immediately called my then WW. His parents took a stand against my wife and me and the son joined their position. This was the first "fight" that the lovers had. Exposure brought reality to the affair and now there was a price to pay for the affair. That call was the beginning of the end of the affair.

If you allow her to negotiate with you, you become an enabler of the affair. You must be firm. Today she hates you and likely loves him. This was the same with my then WW. I played hard ball with her and told her everyone important in her life, plus her employers, were going to know everything about the lovebirds and their reputations will be ruined. It was exposure and the threat of more damaging exposure that caused the affair to end. It takes months for any reconnection with you to begin and it takes a couple of years to get past it completely, but there is hope.

Your wife will lie daily to you, even if she has never been known to lie. Do not trust her words, but trust her actions. Put computer bugs on your computer, make her quit her job to get away from him, if it is a workplace affair, and get records of all her phone bills. Hire a PI if you suspect it is still going on. Fight fire with fire and play the game for keeps. Your family is at stake. This is a time for real tough love but tell her you have chosen to forgive her, but the affair must stop. Let he know that if it continues, you will go for custody, etc. Bring reality to the affair everywhere you can. If the affair becomes more painful than enjoyable, she will stop the affair. You job is to bring on the pain. Do not hit or harm her but there has to be a price of humiliation. Think of everyone she would dissapoint if they knew she was unloyal. Tell her who you are going to tell then expose. If it continues, tell more people, etc. She will know that you are serious and it might stop the affair. She will hate you but you have to understand she does already. She has to justify her right to cheat on you. It is very difficult to end these things and you are going to tested to the max. Be strong and take it one day at a time.

TooSoon

Mark, Kahuna & TooSoon,

Thanks for all of your support; god knows I need you all. They know each other for about 3 yrs, affair started little over a year ago and it got hot and heavy about six months ago. I found out about it two weeks ago which is on 10/5/06 (D-Day).

We’re going to our second MC tomorrow; hope this is when her true honesty finally makes its appearance. I still be firm with my boundaries and would not tolerate it in my marriage but I must walk a fine line between the boundaries and LB. If contact continues, should I add more people on the exposure list? I’m hearing different opinions here.

I truly believe that the A is over and there will not be any additional exposure so I’m working hard on Plan A. I still have a ways to go with Plan A.

Please comment.

If your wife doesn't break off all contact with the OM, I think you have no choice but to continue to disrupt the affair. When I began exposing, my then WW said I blew all chances to get her back. She did not want her mother and her co-workers to know about her affair, but she didn't want to end the affair. I stairstepped exposure but I kept exposing so she knew that I was capable to live up to my threats. I finally gave her an ultimadum, stop the affair or I am going to workplace to tell everyone and then to her mother's house to tell her.

It wasn't simple though, it was ****** for a few months untill I reached the end of my rope. Lovers thrive on secrecy and when exposed, they are scrutinized by everyone. So many BS's allow the WS's to negotiate a deal that allows the affair to continue. Remember, WS's lie and lie and lie. They love their lover more than their spouse. It can turn back the other way but it sure is a long painful road back. If she continues to defend her "friendship" with the OM to the MC and to yourself, assume she is not ready to end the affair.

TooSoon

Right now all really close friends and family members know about the A. She does not want her distant relatives and distant friends to know which I'll not do unless the A and contact continue. Now, she's not in an office A, should I expose to her boss and close assoicates if it continues.

Last night, she asked if she could continue going to the place where she met the OP with her girl friends. She and her GF whom I trusted will make sure he's not there. I told her that is fine, but I'll be there as well. I said it's ok since he wouldn't be there, right? This pisses her off because I'm again over bearing and controlling in her eyes. Oh Well!!

I be interested in tonight's MC of what she have to said. I think she does not contact the OP at this time, but who knows for sure.

Well, WW refused to go to MC yesterday evening so I went by myself. She refused to go because during the day I asked her brother for access to her cell phone records (its in her brother's account) but he went and told her. I now know where I stand with him and her family (blood is thicker than mud).

This cause a big fire storm in her eyes as me being snooping and watching over her shoulders. During her heated conversation, she said many hurtful things hoping that I would go file for a DV. I was devastated and depressed so I didn't go home for the night. Alone but surprisingly peaceful.

Hey Mike, I can understand why you wouldn't want to go home for the night, but whatever you do, don't leave your house. You might have to get a court order to get back in! If anyone has to leave, it should be HER since she is the one who had the affair.

She doesn't want you to snoop because she is hiding something. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

I really like what you did here:
You did good there! Sorry about all the confusion on exposure. The general rule is to stop exposing if the affair is over, re-expose if there is more contact, and expose to essential people in the WS' life.

Have you exposed to the OM's family?

My concern here is that your W seems to have no intention of ending contact with the OM and no intention of recovering your marriage. The "2 month plan" is just a ruse so she can say she "did everything I could to save the marriage" before she moves on.

Melodylane,

I agree with your comments, I wouldn't move out of the house, it was just for the night. I went dark on her since yesterday afternoon and she is having a hard time and worrying about my well being. She left number of voice mails crying and asking me to call and go home & work it out with her. I want to call and run home but I know I just can't do that everytime she wants me to. I will stay dark and go home sometime tonight.

The OP is single and his family lives in another state. I don't have their information or I would.

Mike:

I had found My wife's OM number on her cell phone. I paid a company to cross reference the number and got his name. That told me his state he lived in. He commuted from an adjacent state ot my state. I wrote down every license plate parked in the parking lot from that other state.

I had a friend in the insurance business and I asked him for a special favor. I had my WW's OM's name and several license plate numbers. The insurance business has more information on customers and non customers than you can ever imagine. In one day, I was given the OM's address, date of birth, driving history, where he lived each year he was in college, and his parents name, address, and phone number and they were not even customers of the insurance company my friend worked at.

That allowed me the ability to call the parents which began the unraveling of the affair. I am sorry, your WW still shows signs of being in the relationship and you must accept her ongoing actions until it ends. I hope you know someone in the insurance business to help you. Pay a friend a hundred bucks, but get to the parents.

TooSoon

Short threadjack:

TooSoon, please note I’ve send you THIS POST the other day. In case you’ve missed it.

Suzet

Mike - when she huffs and puffs about exposure I might be inclined to ask, "So what's new? You were damaging the marriage before; I couldn't allow that harm to continue unacknowledged. If you're not doing anything wrong, we should announce your affair to the world!"

I strongly believe the A has ended or near destruction. The OP doesn't want to have anything to do with it and wants her to stop contacting him; my WW appears to want to pursuit him for the life of her. She has extremely deep feelings for the OP.

Latest of what she said:

1. I’m staying in this marriage for the kids.
2. Why don’t you make it easier for me and just divorce me?
3. Why I wouldn’t file for a divorce myself? Because you’ll put up too much of a fight and would cost a lot of money; you’re going to tell the whole world for what I done.
4. I'll sleep in this bed but there will not be any intimacy and don’t touch me in the night. It will be a very long time before any affection would happen, if ever.

Last night, she tried to start a fight with me but I just retreated and went to sleep early. I’m just going to vent here a little:

I finished making a soup she started so she could go to her girl friend’s house for a yoga party the entire Sunday afternoon. I took care of the kids, went for a bike ride with them to the park and have a snack there; missed the last half of my favorite football team’s game (which I don’t mind); finished the soup and clean all the dishes and appliances by hands. With all that, she came home and complains the soup is not smooth enough which I ignored her comment. She then went on to say why didn’t I put the dirty dishes in the dish washer instead washing them by hands; she say she’s planning to use the dish washer after dinner. I said, “I didn’t look in the dish washer and didn’t know she’s planning to use it that night, next time I’ll look.” After dinner as she was cleaning up, she again getting irritated at me for not putting the dishes in the dish washer. I just told her that she ignored what I have done all afternoon but instead get angry at me for not putting the dishes into the dish washer. The dishes were cleaned, may not be at the same place you want them to be nevertheless they’re all cleaned. I just went and took a shower and head into bed. What a BIT_H!!

Thanks, I need this.

It has been three weeks since D-Day. Here is the latest:

At our latest MC (this Wed), WW said she’ll try to work on our marriage. She also agreed that she will tell me if she made contact with the other person and I agreed that I’ll not make judgment (or exposure) against her. She claims that she didn’t make further contact for over a week.

Well, the next night my source told me that she in fact made contact with the OP the afternoon of our MC. I confronted her and finally got her to admit the contact (phone calls but no face to face since D-Day) was made. She said that she could not help it and I should understand how hard it is for her.

I talked to my MC and she said that WW will not stop contacting the other person and her resentment is growing more intense by the day. She strongly suggested that if I love her, I should let her go and let her find herself. Give her a separation and after 18 months, if she still feels the same way about the OP, I should grant her a divorce. MC thinks that she will be back a lot faster than I think. MC also said, if I make WW a prisoner of our marriage by threaten exposure, it will end up in a divorce anyway.

I think the MC does make sense, what do you think? With D-day only three weeks ago and Plan A for two weeks or so, this is basically Plan B. Is this too soon?

I need help big time guys.

I think your MC is full of doodoo.

Why not give your MC the link to this site and request that they read up on plan A and B and exposure here? That was the tactic I took with OUR MC about 3 months or so into our recovery.

Don't agree to no more exposure. Tell your wife it's a simple equation...NC=NE. No contact = No exposure. But, if she doesn't remain in NC, then you're going to be asking for all the help you can get to assist your wife in ending the affair. RE-READ how I said that.

Tell your wife the WHY behind exposure. Tell your MC that too. Make sure YOU know it, and your goal for exposure is exactly that.

You're going to these people to request their assistance in helping you and your wife end her affair. You would like them to talk with your wife and encourage her to end contact, you'd like them to be advocates for your marriage...you'd like them to assist you and your wife by letting you know when NC is broken. Get the picture?

Don't keep a bad promise. Tell your wife clearly that the reason you're exposing is because you're trying to get HELP for your marriage from your friends and family.

Obviously she can't help herself (you're supposed to understand why this is so hard on her). Tell her that you DO understand why it's so hard...you've learned about it here. She needs to make that same effort to understand what's so hard on YOU...and why YOU are doing the things YOU are doing too. You've made the effort to see her reasoning...you understand, and that's why you're taking the measures you are to end the affair and save your marriage.

Then shut up, and let her think about it. Don't discuss it further with her...she'll just try to turn it around. Simply give her all of that, and let her digest it. Make it clear that you have BOUNDARIES that you'll no longer accept her crossing...with results to enforce those boundaries. And that your boundaries are there to save your marriage, not to punish her.

And get rid of that MC if they can't figure out the premise behind what you're doing. Mine had never heard of MB before he met my wife and I...but could clearly see the method and benifits, and immediately started applying it where needed to our situation.

The problem is that I don't have others that will help by exposure. All the close friends and family already knows. They all know WW is screw up; my WW knows she is screw up. There really no one else to expose other than more distant friends and family but they will not help in my cause. It only seems that I'm taking revenge on her misdeed. This seems to push her further away toward the OP.

Isn't Plan B what my MC is suggesting?

Not really.

And you've not had time to do a decent plan A yet. Plan A typically takes some time to be effective...you're at 3 weeks out from d-day. Unless your love bank is already running on empty, it's WAAAAYYY to early for plan B. Go back and re-read the material on A and B. Heck...see if you can setup an appt with the Harley's themselves for counseling.

Perhaps you HAVE exposed your wife's affair to everyone. So, what are they doing to help you end the affair? " All the close friends and family already knows. They all know WW is screw up; my WW knows she is screw up." Isn't helping.

So are they trying to talk with her to end the affair? Putting pressure on her to do the right things? Do they know about this latest round of contact, or do they think she's actually in NC?

Seriously, get the books that they recommend here to help you through all of this. You need to understand how plan A works, what you should be doing, not be doing, and how to make it effective in your situation.

Plan A makes you the more attractive choice to your WS...OVER TIME. You quit being a doormat, become the best spouse and person you can be, and make the fixes you need to in order to improve YOUR part of the marriage. You also work hard to end the affair by using exposure and proper communication with your WS.

Plan B is a tool that is less designed to save your marriage, and more designed to help YOU deal with the situation. It COULD help save the marriage...but as I said, you're way to early in this to seriously look at doing this yet.

Read up, do your homework, contact the Harley's...and get a PLAN. That includes a timeline of how long you'll do what...or what triggers will cause you to modify your plan.

Owl,

Thanks for being here in my time of need, you don't know how thankful I'm. I totally agree with you that I'm wayyyy toooo early for Plan B. I need to focus on Plan A first.

I have told her that I'm going to give her this one contact, the next one will not be negotiated. I do have a problem with how to apply the boundaries without being LB. Everytime I asked for phone records and email account passwords etc.. and she get angry that I'm smothering and snooping on her which cause a great deal of LB. I know that she's hiding these things from me for her future contact use, but it still LB big time. Everything that I said or do turns into LBing in her eyes. I expected them but it still not helping my Plan A efforts.

I read SAA and started on HNHN, I'll finish it this weekend.

Thanks again.

Well, as far as her not liking the "snooping and smothering"...

Ask her if she understands that she destroyed your trust in her. Does she realize that you CAN'T trust her right now? She's TOLD you she's not trustworthy ("you should understand how hard this is on me"), she's SHOWN you she's not trustworthy (by the recent contact), and have seen that she's capable of doing things that she KNOWS will devestate you (by having the affair).

Given that, there's only one way for you to trust her again. By her SHOWING you that you can trust her. By doing the things that rebuild that trust. Such as sticking to NC, by being an "open book", by understanding that you have to SEE her being trustworthy. And you'll only SEE that by 'snooping'.

My wife fought with this too. For the first month after d-day, every week we'd go to MC, and she'd tell the MC that she was in NC. And every week, she'd resume contact. And every week, I'd confront her about it, both at the time and during MC.

This went on until she CHOSE to give our marriage a chance. She then stopped trying to contact OM...for about 3 weeks. Then he emailed her. She showed me that one (it came in while I was sitting next to her)...but DIDN'T tell me that she sent him another email the next day.

I caught it because I was 'snooping'. I'd hacked her email/IM accounts...and because of that one email on Monday, I started snooping and saw his reply to her on Wed...and waited all day Wed and Thu for her to admit to the contact. She didn't. Finally she broke down and asked me what was wrong...I asked her about the emails, and she realized I'd been reading them. She was FURIOUS!!! But...she was also busted. She tried resorting back to that "why can't we still be friends" spiel, which I REFUSED to accept. She asked me what I wanted...I told her I wanted her to end ANY contact with him...forever. She stormed downstairs and immediately sent him an NC letter that wasn't exactly what I wanted...basically asking for NC so it didn't hurt me anymore since I was reading her emails.

But...it sorta worked. She slipped up AGAIN that weekend and emailed him a Father's Day card...to which he replied with only "I can appreciate why you and [Owl} no longer want me to contact you, and respect that. So please respect it as well and no longer contact me." THAT was their last contact.

Sorry for the long version...but you get the picture.

A few months later, she told our MC that she understood why I snooped and was still snooping. It wasn't something against her...it was to reassure myself that it was safe for me to love her again.

Regardless...make it clear to her why you 'snoop'. Don't accept guilt for doing what's right. And also remember that she's simply not capable of thinking rationally about any of this at this point...the aliens still have her brains in the mothership. Just stick to plan A, hold your boundaries, and hang on for the long run.

As far as LB'ing by enforcing boundaries... don't yell, don't raise your voice or get angry. Don't take action in anger. When she crosses a boundary, breathe. Make sure you've made it VERY clear that this is a boundary before you speak with her about it. Then talk to her calmly, explain why what she did hurts and how it violates your boundary, and take whatever action you'd had planned to deal with that boundary violation.

Think of her as a little kid right now. She'll test limits, she's not capable of understanding 'why' you're doing what you're doing, and you can't trust her to do the right thing.

But eventually you WILL be able to. Make sense?

Yes, you do need help but it is in finding a qualified MC. Yours is a MORON who does not understand the first thing about infidelity. So, unless you want to lose your marriage, just flush that money for "counseling" down the toilet and save yourself the gas money. Your MC will land you in D court if you DO follow her advice.

Instead, follow Dr. Harley''s advice, a world reknowned psychologist and author who understands infidelity and has saved untold marriages. He specializes in infidelity, whereas your MC is so ignorant that she does not understand that seperation is about the WORSE advice she can give you. You cannot save a marriage if you are seperated. Your risk of divorce goes up dramatically when seperated. But your MC doesn't even know that.

Secondly, exposure of affairs is the most potent weapon you have in your arsenal. Affairs are contingent upon a fantasy and when exposed, it ruins the fantasy. It forces the infidels to see how sleazy they look through the eyes of others, which is devastating to the affair. Exposure often does not immediately kill the affair, but it hastens its death. this is why the infidels hate it so much!

But you do not "threaten" exposure. EVER. You just do it.

mike, do you have the book Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley? If not, I would get this book ASAP. Stick with the Marriage Builders principles. They are your best bet and LOSE this loser of a counselor you have. You will surely end up in divorce if you follow her bad advice.

EARTH TO MIKE! What WERE you thinking, friend?? I can't believe you CODONED her contact with her affair partner and hope you realize what a bad idea this was. I would also tell her you made a dreadful mistake in doing this and it won't happen again. Nothing short of NO CONTACT will suffice.

As far as snooping, the only reason she "resents" it is because she HAS SOMETHING TO HIDE.

Mike, please stay away from this MC. She is helping your wife promote her affair agenda and they are ganging up on you making YOU the bad guy here. Do you see this? I suspect she is one of these man-hating counselors who believe that all women are victims and all men are oppressors. Regardless, she is not your FRIEND, but your enemy.

miketc -

I third what Owl and ML have told you.

Your MC is setting you guys on the road to sure divorce. IMO, just further proof that what people say here is true - that most MCs are really divorce counselors.

We dropped our first MC for a number of reasons. My primary reason was that he was pushing me to kick her out (separate) because NC was not being established.

You are in a war. This is not the time to seek the easy way out, and (again, IMO) separation is the easy way out. My counselor supported separation because he was concerned about the emotional abuse I would continue to take as long as my wife was in the house and contact was ongoing. My view on it was that, since I was in a war, I was going to have to accept some level of damage to get where I wanted to be.

This does not mean be a doormat. Stand up for yourself, put boundaries in place and enforce them. If there is anything I could do over again after D-Day, it would be boundaries, and especially enforcement of them. I let my wife run roughshod over me early on because I was a) afraid of losing her (I already had) and b) I figured if I showed a kinder, gentler HB she'd see I was the logical choice.

That gained me several months of frustration, hurt and anger. What I should have done, what people advised me to do, was stop enabling her in maintaining contact.

Does she have a cell phone she uses to maintain contact? Is it in your name? Kill or suspend the service. Does she use e-mail to contact him, and do you have internet at home? Kill it. Do you watch the kids so she can go out with him? Don't.

The important thing to remember is that only she can choose to go NC. Only she can maintain it. The responsibility is on her shoulders. Sure, you can help, especially down the road if she'll open up to you. But the desire for NC has to come from within her.

If she threatens you with divorce, let her do all the work. From what I've seen on these boards, most WS' threaten and holler about it, but very few ever follow through.

Listen to the advice you get here. Seek out a qualified MC that specializes in Marriage Recovery, not Marriage Dissolution.

Thanks for all the supports; you guys don’t know how many I appreciated it. I had read SAA and now started on His needs, her needs. I agreed that separation is not in my cards right now, maybe after a good & long Plan A.

I’m on Plan A right now, but it’s so hard when WW is not letting you in. I know I have to keep at it, but she finds the carrot side of Plan A pretentious, smoother and irritated. On the stick side, the more I disclose or confront her with N/C and disclosure, the more it appears to push her toward and confide on the OP. The more I confront her with my facts, the more she’s closing in on how I found out her methods of contact. She uses her work phone, work email, new hotmail/yahoo accounts and get on the net at our local library. She’s avoiding our home computer thinking that it may be bugged.

I need advise in enforcing my boundaries (exposure). I only have her Dad (mom passed away) and two girl friends that maybe (big maybe) able to help in talking to her about staying focus on our marriage. These three people already know how screw up she is and told her so number of times. I have not told my DD (8yo) and DS (6yo), may need a little advises here because they are so young and may not understand. All other friends or family members really are not going to be able to or willing to help. Some of them even thinks that exposure are mean and revengeful on my part; some even support her why she got into the A. If I disclose her to her boss about using her work email and phone for A, she may lose her job which I really don’t want that to happen. Secondly, I don’t even know her boss.

WW called me today on her way home from work. She's asking (begging) me to give her a separation without me causing more exposure. If keeping her home by threaten exposure the right thing to do? I have threatened her that I’ll contacting very distant friends and family members about her A if she continues contact. I have not done enough Plan A and she is having a major withdrawn. The OP actually no longer want the A to continue but WW just doesn’t want it to end. Need advice.

I'd suggest not even discussing the issue of exposure with your WW. If the subject comes up, simply indicate that you will do whatever you think is necessary to save your M, without detailing whether or not exposure forms part of your plan.

Man and others,

That's what I'm doing right now, by talking about our M as little as possible. I just keep saying that I don't do separation or DV. I'm not going to help you destroy our family.

She told me this morning that:

1. I want a separation from you. (So she could pursuit the OP because he does not want contact with her right now.)
2. You're traping me in this marriage by the threat of exposure to our kids' school teachers and their friends parents. You will distroy our kids if you expose to these people.
3. I'm not going to tonight's MC or in the future.
4. You got to let me go because I'll never going to love you again.

I'm thinking about talking to my kids (S6yo & D8yo) about their mother's A.

Need help and support desperately.

Mike, you cannot stop her from leaving. What she wants is to leave and carry on her affair without being exposed. Let her know that you will make sure everyone knows what she is doing if she leaves for her affair. In fact, you should call the OM's wife today and let her know what is going on.

Let your W also know that she cannot take the kids, cannot expose the kids to her sleazy affair, and cannot take family money to finance her affair. Let her know that she will still be required to pay her share of the family bills.

She needs to know that you will make it very hard for her and will NEVER hide her affair for her.

Are you keeping the OM's wife informed of all this?

p.s. And don't "threaten" to expose her affair, but PROMISE her that you "will not hide her affair." That is the ONLY PROMISE you will make. And leave it at that! Don't say anything more.

MelodyLane,

Thanks, you're great. But saying that "I will not hide your affair" means to her that I'm in threaten mode and being revengeful.

No, the OP is not married. I talk to him a couple days ago and he assure me that he understand now that any contact whether it's kind or hostile toward her will only ignite her disire for further contacts. He also told me that he'll not be taking her calls/contacts. I think WW was having a major attack yesterday because the OP is not taking/hanging up/returning her calls. She said that she can't deal with the N/C boundry that I setup. She thinks by me agreed on the separation, she could persuade him to change his mind.

It doesn't matter how she translates it.

She will read from the WS script no matter WHAT you say.

What works as a threat is better as a reality.

Something to think about.

But you are not "threatening," you are PROMISING! Tell her you are not making a "threat" but a PROMISE to never ever hide her affair. promisepromisepromisepromisepromise! Got that?

If she doesn't like it, then she should stop doing things she doesn't want exposed. She can call it "revenge" or a cow patty, it makes no difference. REAL SIMPLE!

Thanks noodle and Lane,

Got it. promisepromisepromisepromisepromisepromise!
This is so hard.

I thinking about informing my kids (D8 & S6) on their mother's A and how she's destroying our family. Any recommendation?

Mike, if she leaves to pursue her affair, you will want to tell your kids why she left. But hopefully it won't come to that.

Mel's advice is dead on the money here.

Don't back down, don't try to protect her from the consequences of her choices. If she chooses to continue/pursue the affair, then you will pursue the actions that you KNOW are required to end the affair.

No point in even talking with her about it. It's non-negotiable.

Mel & Owl, You guys are keeping on course. Thank you so much.

Steady as she go with MB principles.

Thanks again.

Updates:

At MC last night, WW wanted to file for DV but counselor convinced her to at least wait till after the New Year for the kids sake and she agreed. I stressed that I’m still holding my boundaries and MB principles in tack. We agreed that we’ll stay at the house together until the New Year at which time we can then decide what to do. She does not want me to plan anything with her nor should I try to touch or be nice to her during this time.

Our MC asked that we be civil and away from each other (at least for now) for the sake of the kids. MC privately told me that I should just leave her be and let her A dead in its nature course given that the OP wants nothing to do with the A. The more resistance I put up (snooping & exposure), the more she wants to pursuit the A. It also will give her the excuse and ammunitions to file for DV or have a separation.

Comments and what should be my next course of actions.

Mike, do you know who Dr. Willard Harley is? He is probably one of the successful marriage counselors in the US. He is a licensed psychologist with 30+ years of SUCCESSFUL experience. He is the author of numerous best selling books and has a radio show every day.

He is PRO-Marriage. On the other hand, your MC is NOT pro-marriage. The advice she is giving you is meant to facilitate a DIVORCE, NOT SAVE A MARRIAGE. She does not understand infidelity and is giving you BAD ADVICE.

For example, telling you to ignore your wife at a time when she is already extremely DETACHED is very bad advice. It was DETACHMENT that led to the affair in the first place. So, how in the world can more detachment be the solution? Your w will only want to stay in your marriage if you give her a REASON TO DO SO. And ignoring her will not achieve that.

Mike, I implore you to dump this useless MC and stick to Marriage Builders principles. There are no guarantees, but at least you have some CHANCE with them, whereas with your MC, you will only end up divorced. You are seeing a DIVORCE COUNSELOR!

Mike,

Listen to Mel. You WW is for all practical purposes a selfish, entitled, angry, resentful, bitter, child and you need to treat her that way. Plan A for now, be prepared for Plan B and Plan D if necessary. Let her know that you do not believe in D and you know that this M can be saved but if push comes to shove you will protect you and yours from her behavior and attitude. Don't elaborate on this, let her figure it out. She needs to suffer some consequences of her decisions. Don't respond to her attempts to pick a fight or argue.

Your MC is mediating an amicable divorce...that is the nuts and bolts of her advice.

This MC can't help you.

And this is pure bullcrap and more proof that this MC doesn't understand the dynamics of infidelity. The only thing that will motivate her to leave ["give her an excuse"] is an AFFAIR. She has wanted to leave to pursue her affair!

Your marriage can survive some temporary anger over exposure/interference; it CANNOT SURVIVE an ongoing affair. Exposure is RUINOUS to affairs and THAT IS WHY YOUR WIFE IS SO SCARED OF IT!

I understand where you guys are coming from, truly I'm. I had read WH’s SAA and started on HNHN. I believe My WW needs to hear it from the OP that they will not have any future between them. The affair needs to dead in its nature course and I think I will rest from snoop and exposure for a week or two just to see. I’ll get back to snooping and exposure in a couple of weeks.

I agreed with you Lane that ignoring her is not the answer so I’ll try to go into a great Plan A. I have read about Plan A principles in various threads here but could you guys suggest actual examples of what to do while WW is extremely detached without being over bearing, smothering and appear needy. Her birthday is next week BTW and I know she doesn’t want to spend it with me.

Let me ask you one thing.

Why threaten to expose rather than just...expose?

Exposure is not a manipulative tool...it is designed to bring a reality injection into the affair and a mortal blow quite often...so when your wife is planning her divorce, actively in an affair, working with a counselor to achieve this end...I have to wonder what on earth would prevent you from just pulling the trigger?

Are you afraid of her anger? Are you afraid she will be so angry that she'll...divorce you?

She's doing that anyway...she is working every day toward that goal.

It isn't good feelings and remorse that end an affair...it's pain.

The remorse comes after the fog clears...never before.

So imo you have literally NOTHING to lose in doing everything within your power to kill the affair.

I wouldn't wait until after the holidays or after her bday to allow the consequences to hit her square in the chest.

LET her spend her Bday alone and ashamed with her dirty secret broadcast.

Or with OM ranting and railing about what a [email]b@stard[/email] you are.

None of those things hurt your goal...appeasement and entrenchement and tolerance does.

noodle, he already has exposed her affair. Right now the affair is over and the OM will not take her calls. So, she proposed moving out to pursue the OM but wanted Mike's assurance that he would not expose anymore when she did this.

There is nothing more to expose at this time so he is just assuring her that if she does resume her affair, he promises to expose it.

Hey Mike, what would be the point of stopping the snooping if you think she is doing something? There is no point in that. Appeasement will get you NOWHERE!

And the problem with hoping that the affair "dies a natural death" is that you might be completely out of love and on the verge of a nervous breakdown by the time that happens. If the affair doesn't end soon, then its time to go into PLAN B. Waiting around hoping for miracle is much more likely to destroy your marriage, not save it.

Hmmm,

I missed that bit...thanks for the catch up ML.

The reason for not snooping and exposing for a week or two is to give myself some breathing room; snooping is very exhausting for me as well. I don’t want snooping to become an obsession. I think her fire will take a little time to extinguish and does not need my help at this time. She needs to hear it from the horse’s (OP) mouth to really have the idea sink in. I need to be patient at this time.

Around noon today, WW called to say that she needs to go see him but just can’t do it because she knows that I will find out and make a big deal of it. I told her that I appreciate her honesty and hope she wouldn’t do it. I told her if she does, I’ll also be paying the OP a visit. I have yet done a face to face with the OP, and she is afraid what I would do to him if I do. According to WW, the OP is ashamed of what have transpired and really wants nothing to do with continuing the A. In her eyes, going to see him would only bring troubles and heartaches to an innocent person. She’s having lunch with one of her girl friends as I wrote this so this is a good sight. Thank god she decided not to make the visit but you never know.

Examples of what to do in Plan A for a WW that is extremely detached?

Mike, you do need to go have a chat with the OM and have a meeting of the minds. She is probably lying to him about her marital status in order to lure him. You can clear up any false perceptions he may have. Letting him see you in person will help him put a face to your name and he will be less inclined to hurt you. He will also understand that you mean business. You could ask him to send her a letter asking her to never contact him again. That would help you save your marriage and convince her that her affair is really over.

How do you know he is single?

In Plan A, you are as civil as possible and avoid lovebusters. You look for opportunities to fill her EN's where she will let you. ALL WW's are detached. That is an expectation.

He’s single; it’s confirmed by my WW as well as some of her trusted friends. I have spoken to him three times on the phone for the last three weeks and he is feeling guilty by the ordeal. He knows she is married and have two kids which make him depressed (even before my D-Day) and wanted to end the A number of times. My WW always convince him back into the A. I'll do a face to face if needed but I think he's really tried to end this so I'll wait.

For information, my WW was infatuated with me when we first dated. The similarity between OP and me is that we were both surrounded by number of women and it seems that my WW would go through any extremes to get her man. I believe she likes to pride that she gets her man from all these women. I was aback by her actions at the beginning but fell in love with her because I though it was because she was so in love with me. She later told me that she hated me for putting her through the chase because she did so many things that degraded her. She said that I should have dropped all others once she comes into the picture. I think my wife is really sick.

As to the letter you suggested, I have seen recent email from the OP to WW to tell her to work on her marriage and not to ever contact him. So it didn’t mean much to my WW yet. She’s the only one that’s infatuated about the A as she is SOOOOO in love with him (deep fog).

Latest:

WW appears to have N/C with the OP. WW is to stay in our house for now and wait till at least after the New Year to decide whether to file for DV or separation. She’s staying in the guest bedroom and plans her own things; dinners, kid’s activities, going out with friends, gym etc…

It’s her birthday this week and she said that she do not want anything from me. No party, dinner, card, gift, flowers; she wants nothing. What should I do for her B-day since I’m still in Plan A? Any suggestion?

BTW, before she decided to live separate lives, we planned to have dinner for her B-day with another couple. If she wouldn't go, I'll still going to go keep the reservation with some of my male friends, what do you think of this move?

Brother, you need to implement the 180? Have you heard of it? Do a search for it and you'll find it. Trust me, it works.

As far as her birthday goes, I'd get a card but no more. KEEP your plans with the other folks.

Here's the thing, a WW does not respect a weak, appeasing man. Read my threads. I lost my marriage through appeasement. Appeasement doesn't work. Do what is right and don't make anything easy for the ww.

Carry on with your life as if you have had an epiphany that your ex is lost and is holding you back and you simply want to start living again. Your ww can join you if she wants. She will respect this A LOT more than you sitting around hoping she wakes up.

Look, for Mother's Day I cooked my exww her favorite breakfast. I drove 30 minutes to take it to her and give her cards from the kids. I saw it as this great gesture she would be greatful for and would make her think about leaving me. It got me nothing!

WWs are selfish creatures. They will blame you for everything that isn't going their way and will take it out on you. Don't appease. Do what's right and start living.

If you have plans to go out with a group and she has the option to go but doesn't want to, then go without her!

Trust me, she'll respect you more if you start carrying on as if you could care less if she participates in things with you or not. You may not feel that way inside, but she doesn't have to know this.

Please, look for the 180 and do it! If someone else has it, please post it for him.

Good luck. I hope she does wake up and emerges from this fog. You're lucky that the OM doesn't want to be a willing participant in her adultery. If you let her go to be with him, it would fall apart in time simply out of guilt on his part.

NC is the way to go and having his cooperation is very good.

I'm sorry you're going through this, but trust me when I tell you from experience that appeasement will get you nowhere. My ex told me that if I fought her on the divorce that we would never have a chance to be together again since it would get ugly and nasty. I laid down for her and did as she wanted. It's simply so that they can get out without it being hard. Don't do it! Make it hard! Let her know you're not quiting on the marriage and such a move will be entirely hers to make!

Please, hang in there. Man up! She'll respect that.

None of this is easy. The solution is surprisingly easy, it's just horribly difficult to actually do when you are such a mess of emotions inside.

papa, I had follow some of your threads and I feel terrible for you. Now, I'm a little confuse; isn't your Mother's day gesture part of your Plan A? Then wouldn't 180 part of Plan B which I'm currently not on? I want to do a good Plan A right now. Please advise, this is so hard.

I'm planning to give my WW a simple note saying Happy Birthday on it and maybe a small box of chocolate (2-6 pieces). What do you think?

The 180 is done starting with Plan A. Plan B is no contact to let affair run its course, but 180 is fully implemented in Plan A.

I'm going to look for the 180 and post it here when I find it.

Look, your ww will notice when you DONT give her attention, don't beg, plead, or implore.

My ex responded when I quit trying to contact her while she lived with me.

Personally, I would give her a generic birthday card and nothing more. The more attention you give her, the more you turn her away. It's counter intuitive and my ex is an example.

Listen, I sense in you a very similar situation as mine. DON'T make my mistakes!

Don't just go on my opinion on what to do for hre birthday. Someone might tell you to go all out and make her a cake.

I did all kinds of things to hopefully "shake" my ex out of her fog. I put together a video for her of pics of our kids, the birth of our sons and all to Boys 2 Men "On Bended Knee". I had it setup so she could come home, hit play on my computer, and it would play on a projector.

I downloaded Elvis "Always On My Mind" and danced with her in our living room to the words. I wrote letters and did things to try and win her back. She responded to me when I went cold.

I wasn't rude, wasn't mean. Just quit showing her affection and attention. I went out with friends, got out of the house.

“I don’t want to work on the marriage; I’m only moved back home for the kids.”
“I don’t think this marriage will work because you’ll never trust me again.”
“Just because I’m not with the OP, doesn’t mean that I’ll be with you.”
“You should just let me go (DV) which would make it a lot easier.”
“You are suffocating me by watching over me (getting her email accounts, cell phone bills…), send me flowers, send me email with jokes, etc…”

This is all fog speak. My ex said virtually the same stuff.

You need to prepare yourself "just in case". What kind of evidence have you gathered about her?

Consult a lawyer. Again, this is simply "just in case". They can advise you about how to protect yourself if this does go to D. Don't do the work for her, though. Let her do it all.

I know how terrible you feel and understand the pain. Believe me when I tell you, FOLLOW THE ADVICE ON THIS BOARD!!!!

I went back today and read the responses I got from others over the last few months and kick myself for not listening. They were all telling me to do the right things but I thought I was unique and special and that my w was that way too. The quotes above, I heard almost every one of them.

The whole suffocation thing: You have a right to snoop and spy. You've been betrayed. A person without secrets has nothing to hide.

I snooped too. It became an obsession. It is self protection and only right. The problem is when you tip your hand that you have new information. This is very hard to do because you very much want to say something or make her accountable right away, BUT THIS IS A MISTAKE!

I have a friend who found out her H was cheating on her. She didn't let him know for 3 weeks. In that time she took pics of things in his office, wrote down text messages on his cell, had friends take pictures of him while he was out and drinking and kissing other women, printed out e-mails and prepared herself for war.

She was hurting inside. Hurting terribly, but she was smart. She had me at her side coaching her. This site is your coach! Believe the people here!

Now she has tons of evidence to use against him in their divorce.

You need to prepare yourself for that in case it comes to that. Don't let her rob you of your children because she wants to destroy their family and take away their father.

Here's the 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow spouse around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what spouse will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with yur spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 5% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes

Print this out and follow it. Trust me, it works.

papa,

Trust me, this site and the wonderful people here are invaluable in my M’s eventual outcome. I have told many close friends and relatives that my marriage will live or die by the book SAA and inputs from this site. I’ll and do listen to the great folks here.

I do know about the 180 list but I though it's for Plan B. After re-read the list you sent, I'm on 180 without knowing it. That's what I been doing since last week after she asked me to give her space in our home and don't push or smothering her with our M or R issue. I'm still doing Plan A, be nice without LB but I also do most of things on the 180 list. Going out but mostly to the gym a lot.

One side note, a nice looking young lady from the gym did take notice of me this pass Sunday and come over and introduced herself. She complimented me the way I look and it felt good. I’m not going to go there while working on my M but it did give my morel a boost even for a few minutes.

As for the legal stuff, I got my ducks (lawyer) in place just in case. I'm pretty good with civil laws so I know my rights. I have tons of stuff on her but I'm in a no fault state, so adultery don't amount to beans when DV comes into play. My WW wants 50/50 custody and financial settlement anyway, so it’ll not become an issue. At least this week anyway.

Thanks for your concerns and supports.

You will be very vulnerable to a revenge affair. VERY vulnerable. This would be a disaster. I think you recognize that, but I just wanted to throw it out.

I see a lot of myself in your posts. I wish I had listened to the advice on this site. I caved when I shouldn't have.

Good luck and stay on the 180.

Papa, your advise is well taken.

Need more opinions:

At MC last night, WW wants to continue living separate life under the same roof. No family dinner, no outings even family one.

I need opinions of what Papaof3 has suggested of doing 180 while in Plan A. I know he means well but I just like to get more opinions in regard to my present situation. My D-day is only a month ago, it just seem a little early for 180.

Please comment.

Need your inputs. please, don't make me beg.

I think his suggestion of 180 is a good one. In truth, it's probably your best bet at this point. I used something similar when my wife was getting to the end of her withdrawl to 'cut the fog'. I was sick of being blamed for all that was wrong, and finally started to come to the realization that I CAN live without her. And started to show her that. It DID bring her chasing after me more.

The other option would be to tell your wife clearly that you don't want a roomate, you want a WIFE. And if she's not willing to be one, then she needs to move out and find her own way in life....right now.

There's no reason why you should be the one to have to 'suck up' here. She needs to realize that she's part of the family, regardless of how she feels about her marriage. Perhaps suffering the lack of the benifits of the family and marriage will cause her to start seeing some reality?

owl and papa,

I know I could live without her and I’ll be ok. The problem is that my WW is still deep in the fog and she wants to move out of our home for more space. I essentially give her what she wants (to pursuit the A) if I asked her to move out. I think I going to stay in Plan A until the New Year then perhaps go into 180 then Plan B with request for her to move out. I really don’t want to put my kids thru the holiday with 50% of the parents at their side.

Any thoughts.

The 180 is something you do while in Plan A. Read what the 180 says. Nothing in there contradicts plan A.

I know you're hurting. I know you want to love her so much she'll wake up. She won't. Trust us on here. You are not a unique or special case. WSs are the same and I made the mistake of ignoring the advice I was receiving here. I even had other women tell me that if I quit showing my W attention, that she would respond. If you continue to show her affection, if she continues to see you beg, plead, implore, point out the good things in the marriage, smother her with affection, you will do the opposite of what you want.

It is counter intuitive, but it works.

Trust me. Do the 180 for one day. The 180 empowers you. It gives you some control over the situation. She doesn't realize it, but she is used to your affection and knows you're there for her beck and call.

miketc, the 180 is your answer. If you read the things on this site, you'll see that plan A is only a temporary thing.

Mike, please, I'm really asking you to shake your own fog. I was exactly where you are. I believed I was a special case and that my W was different and that the advice on here didn't apply. Don't be like me and find yourself sitting 8 months later wishing you had listened.

The 180 would bring her back to you quicker than continuing to smother her. There's nothing drastic about the plan. As far as throwing her out goes, you certainly shouldn't be the one to leave your house.

Believe us when we tell you: tough love is all that a WS will respond to. This may mean actually throwing her out and into the arms of the other man. The fantasy usually crumbles shortly afterwards. Suddenly, Mr Wonderful is seen for who he really is.

My ex is still in the fog. She still paints me as a bad husband and thinks this divorced existence is what's best for her and the kids. I've been living the reality of this life and she hasn't. It's just now starting to happen since I've actually stood up and started looking out for myself and the kids for a change.

You will want to appease her. You will want to do what she wants because you think this will give you the best chances. That isn't so. You're enabling her if you do it.

Trust me, you have plenty of BSs here that know what they're talking about because they've been exactly where you are. Read WaltW's thread to see how to do a very good 180. His own ex has been responsive to it and finds herself lost. They're on the path to D, but it hasn't been from a lack of trying on his part. Others on here have had very good responses to the 180 and have had their WS wake up.

I hate to tell you this, and it isn't something you want to hear, but your W will likely be thrilled at first to be "free". Odds are that she will leave and you will be hurting very badly. I hope not, because it really hurts and I don't wish this on you, but I'm being realistic.

It is very easy to be weak at this time and not stand up for what you know is right. I tolerated my W going to clubs and leaving me with the kids when she was in the thick of her fog. I went along with everything she asked for. I made it easy for her thinking it would lead us to reconcile eventually if I didn't fight her. Unfortunatly, all I did was enable her. She's gone now and hasn't looked back. I never made her see what she stood to lose. DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKE!

I'm really sorry you're going through this, but you need to understand that your wife as you knew her is dead. The person you're dealing with now only looks like your W. Only through self respect and strength will you coax your W back.

I wish you the best.

Melodylane where are you, need your wisdom here!!

Papa,

Last week, Melodylane and Owl blasted my MC for proposing that I ignore my WW until after the New Year especially when WW is so extremely detached. My MC also suggesting that we separate (her moving out) for a while to see how things go. Detachment was one of the reasons she went wayward in the first place. Wouldn’t 180 and asking her to move out cause detachment to reoccur as well? You guys are asking me to do what my MC was suggesting last week which didn’t go well with folks here. I’m surprised that I’m receiving this advice now; just one week ago it was a bad idea.

Trust me that I’m not making it easy for her including strict enforcement of her breaking boundaries. This is why she is so resentful and bitter against me because she thinks I know exactly what she is doing 24/7 (snooping) and will not take her craps if she makes contact (enforcing boundaries). She knows how far I would go to make her feels the consequence of her A and breaking N/C. I just don’t think one month after D-Day is enough to implement a good Plan A before going into 180. In reality, the New Year is only 3 months after D-day and I believe that is probably the right time to implement a full 180. I also know whatever I do in Plan A (good or bad) will not bring her back without 180, Plan B or even DV. I think I need to exercise some patient here and not jump into the next step too quickly.

As I was saying earlier, I’m doing most of the things in the 180 list without knowing it but I do have problem with 180’s:
Item 10, Do not spy on spouse. It’s just too soon to let her loose.
Item 14 & 27, Get busy, do things, exercise & focus on other parts of my life. This again is how WW and I got here in the first place. We start doing our own things which led to her A. Right now, I’m spending a lot of times at the gym (3-4 times a week for 2-3 hours around dinner hours) which I should spend more time at home with the kids.

The 180 has nothing to do with anyone moving out.

As Papaof3 said, you combine Plan A with the 180. Go ahead and keep snooping if it helps you. "Focus on other things" just means try not to focus on what she is doing 24/7. It WILL help you to detach from her lunacy - not from her. A spouse who is not clingy and depressed is more attractive. Does that make sense?

If you still need Plan B, that's when you tell her to move out. Not before.

The 180 doesn't involve throwing her out at all. That's what will likely end up having to happen if she doesn't come around, unfortunately.

You implement the 180 while in the house. As I said, my ex responded to it. For example, I used to call her constantly when she went out shopping with our nanny on Saturdays. This annoyed her. I finally tried very hard to not contact her at all when she went out one Saturday. She came home and told me she was shocked I hadn't called her all day. She hugged me and showed me affection for the first time in a long time.

I tried to maintain emotional distance, but it was hard. I quit trying to hug her and give her affection. Mainly because I knew it was unwelcome and thought it should come from her. I was dying inside and wanting to, but knew it was not constructive to do so.

So what did I do? I didn't call her, I made a greater effort to just leave her alone. I didn't ask her to read books, go out, have SF, and I tried to go out myself with friends.

I'm not saying ignore her. That's not the 180. You're still around, but through your actions you make home a welcoming environment. For example, I didn't call her when she went out, but dinner was ready when she came home, the kids were bathed, fed, and ready for bed, and I baked cinnamon buns to go with dinner. I had it ready for her matter of factly. Did she appreciate it? Not at the time. Perhaps in the future she'll look back at the efforts I made to win her back despite all the pain I felt inside.

None of this is easy and if you're genuinely doing other things to improve yourself and detatch yourself emotionally, then more power to you.

But yes, the 180 goes with Plan A. Your W will not come around otherwise.

Look at it this way, if you act as a caring roomate instead of her H. You can be friendly and listen when she speaks, but you don't show affection as an H would. Doesn't mean you don't want to. But if she feels comfortable around you she may start to wonder where your affection went and might welcome it again.

There were moments my ex would get into bed and put her arm around me to comfort me.

This is a minefield you're walking through and it is something you have to make your way through yourself. Just trust me when I tell you that you're getting the right advice here. No one here would advocate separation. If she wants to leave, let her do the work for that. Don't do it for her.

You will read these posts a few months from now and see that the advice you were getting was always there. The actions recommended to you were the right ones to take and the ones you either A) ignored and had everything fail, B) followed, but things failed anyways, or C) followed, and she responded to it.

I can guarantee you that she won't respond to being smothered. Why would she crave your affection when you so willingly give it out even when she doesn't want it?

Think about it.

We all want you to succeed.

Thanks papa, mulan, owl and others.

I appricate all your posts, since I'm doing most of 180 anyway, I'll continue. I agreed that smothering and affection will not bring her back, that's why I have not done it for over a week.

You slept in the same bed with your ex back then? You're lucky, we're in separate bedroom so no touchy, touchy. LOL.

Being separate is probably less painful. I would lay next to her hoping she would reach out to me. I would lay next to her and cry as she slept. I wanted desperately to touch her and hold her and have her hold me back.

Believe me, you probably sleep better this way. One time she told me she wanted SF simply as a biological need. I did too for similar reasons, but I hoped inside it would somehow touch her emotionally.

If you're doing the 180, then you're doing about all you can.

Maybe a gift for her birthday isn't out of the question. Or a surprise cake made by you.

Sometimes the gifts given passively can mean a lot.

Hard to know what to tell you. Overly romantic gestures aren't well received by WSs.

Again, good luck.

papa, I don't think I'm as emotional as you, not being disrespectful but that's the way I'm. I too at times hope that she would come over and hold me but it was just that, Hope. We have no SF (at least me) since August so you're luckier than I. Now that you mention it, I do sleep better since we have our separate BR. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

She's getting a "Happen Birthday!!" and "Have a nice day" on a piece of paper from me. I may draw pictures of a flower and a cake w/ candles if she's nice. 180 right?

I'll be the first to admit I am emotional. I wear my emotions on my sleeve.

She told me one night she had needs but didn't want me to make more of it than what it was.

I would say that is adequate. I would personally done more, but as we've established, it accomplished nothing.

As I said, good luck.

11/14/06 Latest:

As far as I know, there is N/C bet. WW and OP for the last two weeks.

Yesterday, WW was putting pressure on me to give in to her for a trouble free separation, giving her 50/50 custody and allow her to go out and “find herself”. She said that doesn’t mean that she’ll be running back to the OP (we know better don’t we) but she need time to be alone and work things out on her own. She may then miss me and get those loving feelings back again. Of course I told her that I don’t do separation; she needs to do that by herself and I’ll not have anything to do with it. She also told me she doesn’t want it (separation/DV) to become nasty, she doesn’t want to go through legal channel to obtain a LSA. For info, I’m in one of the worst state (NJ) that normally rules against the husband (even if it involves WW) in regarding to custody, alimony and child supports. If she files a formal LSA, I most likely will be toasted.

She then asked what I want from her; to have her stuck in a marriage that she doesn’t want to be in. I told her that I want her to work on our marriage for at least six months (my Plan A); I want to be able to tell our kids in five/ten years down the line that their Daddy did everything that he knows how to keep this marriage together. I think that’ll be enough time for my Plan A, at which time I’ll switch to Plan B or Plan D anyway.

She doesn’t believe that it will work, she have nothing left for me even if the OP is not in the picture. Her love for me went dead five years ago well before the OP. She agreed to give me five months to work on our marriage; she’ll give her best efforts (??) which she said may be less than what I expected. If she doesn’t get those loving feeling for me by that time, I’ll agree to a friendly separation. She asked that I do not force SF or affection from or on her during this time which I agreed.

Here is my thinking in accepting the five months period:
1. Hopefully, she’ll put her best efforts to work on our marriage.
2. Even if she doesn’t put her best efforts forward, this time enable me to buy some time so she could get over her withdraw for the OP.
3. Give me five months for Plan A so she’s open to accept my EN and fill some her love bank.
4. At the end of five months, I was planning to go into Plan B anyway so having her move out may not be so bad anyway.

What do you think? Really need some of the expert’s wisdoms here.

Cool, she only has to go deep underground with her affair for 5 months and then you will roll over and take it without complaint!

That is a GREAT DEAL for her!

Not so great for you, though, Mike. She is not going to work on the marriage, she is only going to ride out your time limit so you will give her what she wants.

If you want to save your marriage, don't agree to anything. The reason she needs your agreement is because it is TOO HARD. Chances are she won't ever do it anyway if you make it too hard. Make her work her [censored] off if she is going to destroy your family. Don't cooperate in the destruction of your family. That is the best way to drag this out and protect yourself.

You best options in saving your marriage are to follow Plan A to the letter. Snoop, expose and DO NOT cooperate with any manipulative deals with your WS.

Mike, I know that you are trying hard to negotiate your way out of this, but please understand that this is a negotiation that will most likely result in the end of your marriage. When you negotiate with a fogged out, addicted WW, you are never likely to get an honest deal, or a good deal, that is because the ONLY good deal for her is the chance to resume her affair UNIMPEDED.

Basically, you have given her a deal that says if she acts nice for 5 months, you will help her destroy your marriage. What a crazy deal!!

You must have similar GOALS in order to negotiate a win-win situation. You don't have that here. Your goal is save your marriage, her goal is to END IT. You have negotiated the end of your marriage in this deal. BAD DEAL.

Mel,

Plan A and the boundries including N/C will still be in place which she agreed and I'll snoop/expose if contact is made. If boundries are broken or she's not working on the marriage, all bets are off and she agreed to it as well. Like I was saying, as far as I know there is no contact. The OP doesn't want to have anything to do with the break up of our marriage. If she goes for LSA, she'll get what she wants anyway (50/50 custody) and more (CS & alimony).

I could always change my mind if she's not working on the marriage.

Mike, you don't know what she will get in a LSA. We have many fathers in many states who get custody and very favorable deals. Even so, she is reluctant to even take that step and won't do it without your cooperation. This is why you should never negotiate the end of your marriage, and that is what you have done.

good luck!

mike - here is the translation of what your WW is asking for:

"I want to go back to my boyfriend but I want you to stay off my back about it. That's why I'm moving out - so you won't interfere with my affair.

"Then, when you are nice and agreeable about my moving out and don't make a fuss, I can tell myself that you and the kids weren't really hurt by my abandoning you and are all doing just fine. That way, I don't have to feel guilty!

"We can get a divorce and all be friends, I can still use mike as a fall-back in case I need something (like money or babysitting), and I can still have my boyfriend.

"C'mon, mike, be a sport and let me have all this."

That's what she just said.
Mulan

mike, mike, mike - I have never seen so much fog in a BS. You have bought her lines and she will laugh all the way to divorce court.

What on earth do you propose to do if there IS contact, which we all know there will be the minute she drives away? What does "all bets are off" mean?

mike, nobody moves out of their house to "work on a marriage." Everything you listed in your post HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. Sadly, the only one who doesn't realize that is you.
Mulan

Her words are verbatim what I heard except for the 50/50 part.

Don't do any of it. Tell her that you will not make any of this easy on her and all you will work on is the marriage. You will not willingly participate in the disolution of your marriage.

Please don't give in to her demands to make it easy. I heard all the same stuff from my ex. She didn't want it to get nasty. She wanted it to be easy so we could be friends and probably end up together later.

You have to be a rock. Your response is consistent. I will only work on our marriage, I will not help you dissolve this family.

It will be very hard. She will rant and rave. She will throw fits and threaten you that it will get nasty if you don't do as she wishes.

Don't believe it. Prepare yourself for it. Live with the fact she'll be furious.

DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE!

Also, I made assumptions about custody too. Don't do it. There's a movement nationwide to be fair to father's and joint custody is what is being encouraged in courts. Don't assume anything. A lawyer is likely to tell you as much. Ask if you don't believe me.

I can't believe how many husbands are on this board going through exactly what I went through. It saddens me. Please learn from my mistakes. Weakness and appeasement will get you what you don't want: divorce! Don't do what I did!

Be strong. I know it's hard, but be strong!

Mel, I don’t know about other states but in NJ, she’ll get at least 50/50 custody if not more. Unless I could proved that she’s an unfit mother (which I can’t), she’ll certainly get CS and alimony; and she may even get me out of the house. Unfortunately, WW’s infidelity doesn’t add much to my favor in the court of law, this come straight from my lawyer. If we go to informal separation, she’ll move out of our house without formal CS and alimony as long as I give her 50/50 custody.

Mulan, I must be in a fog so help me here. She’s staying in the house with me for the next five months to work on our marriage including N/C with the OP. If there is contact made during the five months period, then I’ll not agree to the separation’s terms of 50/50 custody she’s asking for. I’ll also further expose to others that don’t know about her A. Remember, there are not too many more people to expose to without looking like a revengeful BS. What else should I be do or not doing?

I asked for N/C and I’m getting it now. I asked for her to work on the marriage and she’s said she’s going to try. I need to give her that to at least to prove her wrong. I’m getting five months of N/C which I’ll be monitoring it strictly. I’m also getting more time for WW to get over her withdraw. I could always go back on my words for cause; I could always make up something at that time. If not, I’m basically looking at a LSA in January. What would you suggest to be a better alternative?

Papa, I just want to buy more time. No, I’ll not leave my house and will not make it easy when it comes time for it. I’ll be strong.

Mel, Papa & Mulan, I highly value all of your comments, so please keep them coming. I want to be clear of what to tell her tomorrow during our MC.

What you say is simple:

You are committed to making changes in your marriage. You are committed to doing what it takes to make it work. You will not make it easy to divorce and will not willingly participate in it and you refuse to talk about it. Better yet, if it comes up simply say you refuse to talk about divorce and that divorce is not in the equation.

If she is going to try to make the marriage work then she needs to earn the trust she shattered and that involves complete openess of her contacts. She should let you read her e-mails, she should check in with you when she goes out, she should show her her cell phone bill and allow you to see her phone. She should do all of this until you regain some trust in her.

Keep snooping on her online.

Log everything and keep track of things that can be used against her in court.

Protect your finances. Don't trust her at all with money.

Be calm. Don't cry. Be someone she can be attracted to. Not showing emotion and being a mystery to her will get you there.

Good luck.

She have not talk about DV but do ask for separation which I refused to discuss it. She gave me access to her hotmail but I have no access to her work email or work phone bill. I do have access to her cell phone bill and she does let me know who she goes out with. After D-day, her girl friends normally come over our house before they heads out. She's off two days in the middle of the week and she does tells me where and who she's with but she doesn't check-in.

She has access to our join checking account (use to pay bills) but that's not where our big money is. I'm the only one with access to large dollars 401k, stock & IRA accounts ... We still have join credit cards but we don't have any outstanding balance on them and I do keep an eye on any unusual purchase or withdraw but none have been found to date.

One thing about my WW is that she does like spent or waste money, this is one reason why she doesn't want to go see a lawyer and get a formal LSA or getting into nasty DV.

Good. You're in a better place than I was, then. My ex would get furious at me if I tried to spy on her. She could never accept that this was necessary due to her actions. She still has never accepted responsibility for her actions. She believes I'm the one that has caused all the problems since I came home because I reacted normally to what she did.

She didn't want to see the pain, the tears, the anger, the distrust, the need to snoop. She has never accepted that she was the cause of all of it and that her actions have led to my legal actions recently.

I don't get how someone can ruin your self esteem, your time with your children, your family, your finances and expect you to want to be friends and make everything happy and carry on as if nothing has happened.

In my world we believe in accountability. It doesn't exist in hers. We are responsible for our actions and our actions have consequences.

Your WS will not like being held accountable.

Keep being a positive person around her as best you can. Do the 180. You can do the 180 and still be positive. This will make you a warm person to approach and she will find you appealing to do so again.

Keep at it.

I don't think I'm in better place with my WW. My WW sounds just like yours as to her rights, privacy, accountability and consequence of her actions. I have made it so uncomfortable for her that she gave up the email and cell phone bill account access. She would still keep things from me if she could get away with it.

She agreed to read SAA and HNHN with me, so it's a good start once she finish reading them. Let's wait and see.

Mike,

I'm with you, if you understand.

Continue to be strong.

Mike,
Wow I am about 1 month behind you on what is going on with my WW. My WW is having an EA online, and is currently angery with me because I wrote the OM and now he won't talk to her. She was sending him nude and partially nude pictures of herself.

She has now agreed to work on our marriage. But reading her Email she file DV this week. I have not been served but she told the MC that she was not going to file. Hmmm who do I believe? Alien 1 or alien 2?

I was confused about the 180 tactics until I read your whole story. Now I get it. I am the needy one that needs the hugs and the conversation. I am the one that is smothering her. I am the one that is causing her coldness. I just need to treat her like I don't care what she does anymore. I will do my own thing, take care of the kids, feed myself and the kids. Not worry about her.

My MC sort of told me the same thing. Back off, leave her alone, give her the space. I didn't know what this meant so I just did nothing. Now it is all coming together.

I am still snooping and will not stop. I need to know if there is more then one OM. Could be with an online romance. So we are in this at the same time with the same problems. Let us both work through this. Not sure I can provide you with insight but I am here to support you and see where it goes.

Ron

Mustang, thanks for your support.

Betrayed, I feel for ya, stay in there even when it seems hopeless. My WW started to get her head out of her @ss to see how destructive this is costing the entire family, but it only lasted a few days. During Thanksgiving, she was saying and doing disrespectful things. As a result, I LB a few times which I deeply regret but it did get her to stop her destructive demeaning manners.

She verbally agreed to work on our marriage to “her best ability” until end of March 2007. She asked that we put this agreement on paper and when end of March comes around she may elect to move out of our house with 50% custody and no interference from me as she may pursuit any friends she wants (meaning the OP). Give me some though on this agreement.

Don’t know if she’s going to use this as a way to tell friends and relatives that she did tried to work on our marriage and it didn’t work. I have to wait and see but it doesn’t look promising. The good part is that I do believe that she’s not having any contact with the other person. I’m hoping that this will buy me a little time for her to get over her withdraw and getting extra months of NC.

For heaven's sake, do not sign ANYTHING unless you have an attorney sitting right beside you. Repeat: Do not sign ANYTHING.
Mulan

I wouldn't agree to this. Tell her that putting limits on saving your marriage when so much has happened is not right. Recovery will take a long time and it certainly isn't going to happen by March after what she's done.

Go to your lawyer, tell him/her about this demand. Have a separation order drafted with the children being put on a freeze order that will have them stay in their home. Keep this in your back pocket just in case and have your lawyer ready to file it if necessary. Don't tell the W about it.

Tell her that your committment to your marriage was made when you swore before God, family, and a clergyman/judge that you were going to be there till death do you part. Signing another document diminishing that is not something you should do.

Expect her to throw fits. Expect her to threaten you and have her tell you that you're making this ugly and it will be ugly unless you agree to her terms. Expect it. It's coming and she will try to use your desire to save your M against you.

My exW told me exactly that when I told her I wouldn't give her a no-contest. She threw a fit and said I was simply going to make it hard and ugly and that there would be no chance for us to be back together unless I did it her way.

Guess what? I did it her way. I appeased and now find myself divorced without primary custody of my kids. I was left holding on to hope. The reality is that you are married and she will have to take the action to finish that. Don't give in to her rants, because they will come.

Lay the full burden of ending your marriage on her and drag your feet through every step of the process. Her demand is ludicrous and is simply a way of buying herself time to set things up legally. Someone truly interested in saving a marriage doesn't put artificial deadlines on it.

AMEN Mustang, she is interested in buying time to figure out her master plan and it doesn't include Mike.

Separate the divorce from your desire to restore your M. Divorce is ugly and best handled by your mean lawyer. He/she should represent your interests to a fault (financial, custody, etc). If she wants to talk D have her attorney talk to yours but make it clear that it will not be amicable, anything but. If she wants to talk M then she should talk to you and the two of you should get into counseling (only if she is in NC with OM).

It's almost a Dr. Jeykl and Mr. Hyde scenario. Divorce = the monster you; Marriage = the new , improved and committed you.

Her choice.

Here is my though about signing this document as long as there is N/C:

1. In my state, there is no legal separation and infidelity doesn’t do anything for custody. If she moved out, she will get 50/50 custody regardless. By the end of March, I’ll go into Plan B and have her move out anyway.
2. I’m buying time for her to get over her withdraw for the OP and for me to do more Plan A.
3. I’m not talking about DV; I’ll let the lawyers do that.
4. In this agreement, she’s asking for two things by end of March, 50% custody and for me to leave her alone.

I see more benefit than harm or am I just too stupid.

50/50.

Know why she wants this?

Because it makes her look like a reasonable, caring mother.

** It also gives her 50% of her time to pursue her affair.

It is the easiest way to get divorced from you, without you making it ugly.

** Because if it looks like an ugly divorce, then everyone now and in the future might find out what she did.


Personally -- I think the biggest impact you could have would be Plan B immediately. Get her out of the house, with limited visitation with the kids, and no promise of making things look "easy" or "nice."
Shatter her amicable divorce ploy.

She isn't working on anything, except trying to manipulate you into cooperating on the destruction of your family.

What Lexxy said. You are being railroaded into handing over everything and played up one side and down the other. You simply do not realize it because you see what you wish to see.

SIGN NOTHING!!!
Mulan

Mike,

I've been with you since the beginning. I told you not to repeat my mistakes. You are on the path to doing just that. Your emotions are clouding your judgement. If you sign this and agree to this with her you will lose. All she has to do is bide her time. As I told you earlier, have a separation order prepared by your lawyer. Have a freeze order made to keep the kids in the house.

If you do this, you WILL LOSE! Please believe me when I tell you this. This is manipulation to make things easy for herself. Believe us please!

All, thanks for your inputs.

I didn’t sign the agreement. We were supposed to sign it at MC last night but she didn’t like the idea of me putting into the agreement of spending undivided attention time to improve our marriage communication skills. I told her that we’re basically roommates since the agreement said that we’ll converse amicably with no guarantees and that I’ll not pursuit SF or affections. Without undivided attention time, that’s basically not working on our marriage; she claims being in the house and sleeping in the same bed with me is already too much for her to handle emotionally. So I told her that I’ll not sign something that basically not helping us on "working on our marriage".

What state are you guys from?? It all sound great when you guys are saying going into Plan B, get her out of the house and give her limited visitation to the kids but in my state’s legal system it’s next to impossible. First she would only leave the house with 50/50 custody secured. Second, she has been taking care of the children (D9, S6) as a SAHM since they were born; the court will not grant limited visitation for her. I should get 50/50 at best if we go to court; this has been confirmed by my lawyer.

Even if she does leave the house there is legal problem with separation order and freeze order for the kids, since my state has no legal separation there is no such thing as separation order. I could only delay the process with freeze order but it eventually could back fire on me. She could counter suit with a DV and will get the 50/50 as well as CS and temporary alimony which the court will grant her without a problem since she works part time and make less money than me. They may even get me kick out of my own house. I’m in a horrible state (NJ) for husband in a divorce even if the W committed adultery.

Really need more comments from you guys on my dilemma.

First of all -- your marriage counselor is terrible.
She is helping your wife negotiate a separation and divorce. She is NOT helping you restore your marriage.
I wouldn't waste my time or money on another session.

Here is what your wife needs to know: if she decides to proceed with a separation you will tell everyone who asks that she was having an affair. The children will also know why mommy and daddy aren't together anymore (age appropriate, but the truth nevertheless.)
She will not be protected.

You will not make this easy for her. You won't be friends later. You won't even speak to her.

That is what she needs to know while making the decision to break up the family -- that she will forever be the bad guy.

Now the reality of living in NJ might mean that you'll end up with 50/50 custody, and having to pay alimony (not child support though -- if you have them equally...)
But don't let her think its going to be easy or friendly!
Start pushing for her to get a full time job. Don't be a doormat. Stand up for yourself.

Mike, you shouldn't sign anything. All this is a manipulative ploy to dump you in 6 months and boot you out of the house. She is hoping that you fall for this ruse by putting in a time frame in the hopes that you won't cause any fuss and will go down easy. You are falling for it.

She has no intention of working on your marriage at all, you can plainly see that. She didn't like the idea of spending time with you, because she has no intention of BEING with you when she gives the boot in 6 months. All you are doing by agreeing to this is giving her permission to give you the boot in 6 months, and you will take it without protest.

Thats a chumps deal, Mike, when you could have a marriage and an intact family by refusing to go along with ANY seperation deal at all. By making it clear that you will never go down easy, you will make it so hard on her that she will have second thoughts. That will buy you the time you need.

When we say don't talk divorce with her, we mean seperation too. Seperations will not help your marriage. Only a sincere committment to working on the marriage, and she has no reason to do that if she believes she can give you the boot, without your protest, in 6 months. Heck, she can keep you around to take out the trash and put up the tree in the meantime. What a great deal if you are trying to dump your H with as little fuss as possible!

Again, what Lexxy said. Ditto.

When it's not possible to Plan B because the WS won't leave, the next best option is the 180. You may have already seen this, but just in case:

THE 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow spouse around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what spouse will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with yur spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 5% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes

Lexxxy, NJ’s CS is calculating by the total net income divided by 2. I made 3 times as much as W so I will have to pay her. Don’t know how to push WW to get a full time job if she know she don’t have to.

I have already told my children of WW’s sin, I feel so bad when I told them. They are so young (D9/S6) to have this being told about their mother. She knows if she leaves the house, I will not hesitate in telling everyone who wants to know about her misdeed. People that have an affect on her are already know so there is not too many people to expose to, maybe some distant friends and relatives but that’ll appear revengeful to others. She knows I wouldn’t make it easy for her, separation/DV.

MelodyLane, I just want to get this straight, it’s WW’s intention for her to leave the house and “find herself” (pursuit her adultery). She knows that I will not leave the house or the kids. I think she just want to secure her 50/50 custody and for me to leave her alone during the separation with this agreement.

Mulan, Thanks, I know about 180 but I want to do more Plan A because after last night I think she may leave the house after the New Year. I don’t have anything in her love bank right now.

Mike,
I'd stop negotiating with her. What is it really gaining you? Stop participating in this.

Let her come up with her plan to leave. Let her do the work. You simply respond when you legally have no other choice.

IMO, some detachment is needed on your part. You can't force Plan A on her -- she doesn't seem receptive to you.
You can continue Plan A behaviors, which will sink in. But I would stop trying to directly do things for her. Let her benefit from your Plan A indirectly. Things she will miss when she leaves. (fixing things, cleaning, etc.)

She's running away. And she's going to crash and burn. But I don't think anything you do for the next month is going to make any difference. Its not going to stop her from leaving. (my opinion...)

She's not working on the marriage -- she's working on her exit strategy. She's ****** bent on getting out -- probably to pursue this man who has cut her off while you are in the picture. She thinks if she leaves, she is then "available" and he will change his mind.

I wouldn't bother with another counseling session -- your MC is simply helping her negotiate within the context of counseling. Really -- what have you gotten from it?
Other than your wife being able to tell everyone how hard she tried to fix the marriage?

Lexxxy,

You’re right on with your comments. I started 180 while doing Plan A indirectly as well; thanks for confirming my long and lonely path. I got the message from all of you about stop negotiating with WW and I’m glad that I didn’t sign the agreement. The idea of the agreement or the separation was not suggested by our MC, WW basically handed her the agreement at the time and wanted her to be the judge/witness to it. We, the counselor and I were stupid enough to almost go along with it. The counselor does help us in communication skills; I think I’ll keep her for now.

I also want to give you a little history on my MC; she is a recovered WW 15 years ago, she said until she separated from her then BH that is when the fog finally lifted. She realized that her BH is the person she was in love with and went back to him which he took her back. I think this is why she doesn’t thing separation is a bad thing considered what she sees in our situation.

miketc,

From all that I have read it seems that the many here and elsewhere see a separation as the beginning of the end of the M. Simply letting the M die instead of working on it. Also for a WS it can simply mean "I want to have my space so I can go out and work on my relationship with the OP without interference from you". Which of course is out of the question.

IMHO No agreement which would allow either of these two options is acceptable.


Just my thought.....

Why not ask her how she's planning on supporting herself financially when she moves out, because you WILL NOT be paying her bills.

Your MC may have been "Plan B'd" by her husband, and *that* was what brought her out of her fog. Plan B is quite different from an agreed-upon separation. Do not let the MC mislead you on that, as she has already tried to do.
Mulan

JKG, coachW & Mulan,

I agreed with NO agreement whatsoever. According to my MC, she went to the OP but found that the grass was not greener and she did missed her BH. That's why she thinks N/C bet me and my WW may bring back the loving feeling my WW desired. Don’t think her BH was doing any plan at the time. My WW’s working part time, three days a week that pays pretty well. She could afford an apartment and a modest life style, may not be the same standard as ours but not bad. If she filed for DV, she could get me to pay temporary CS and alimony then she really doesn’t have to worry about her finance.

On the topic of Plan B, I need help in writing the PB letter so I have it ready as well as how to create a plan and execute on it. I don’t want to do Plan B until end of March but who knows what would happen bet now and then. We’re presently living together but she most likely will walk after the New Year or end of March (but who knows), how should I proceed with Plan B plan? I know by telling her I want an S and give her 50/50 custody, I could get her to move out of our house but of course I wouldn’t do that for her. Should I get her out of our house to do Plan B?

I'm also doing 180 and going to the gym 2-3 hrs. after work (3-4 nights/week) whenever there is no kid's obligation. I usually don't get home until 8pm, is this the right thing to do in 180. Our M problem started because I was working late (around 8pm nightly) and not provide her with emotional supports. I think I'm doing just that again with this. Need advise.

IMO -- plan A and 180's don't work well together.

She is detached from you -- and the 180 behavior will only enhance that feeling. She will conclude that you don't care and you've never cared. Plan A is intended to draw her back to you, and to demonstrate that you've changed.

It sounds like your plan is reinforcing her belief that you don't care.

You're 180's will go better with Plan B -- not Plan A.

Yes - the 180 is something you can do if it's time to go to Plan B but the WS will not leave.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan and Lexxxy,
I think I need to stay in Plan A until Plan B/180 which may be as early as the New Year and end of March the latest.

Could anyone help me in the Plan B letter and execution of Plan B Plan?

Help, I got some sample letters so I ok there but how should Plan B be executed.

If and when I want to go into Plan B and WW have not decided to move out, my assumption is not to force her to leave. Is this correct? At that time, I may choose to go into 180 but not negotiate S or custody issues.

Someone has to leave. You can't do Plan B living under the same roof.

Of course you should force her to leave!
If she won't end the affair, won't commit to working on the marriage -- then she has to go.
She will respect you for making a stand.

I would encourage her to leave without any legal separation agreement or custody arrangement (because these apparently in your state don't work to your advantage). Tell her to leave to go figure out what she wants. The family (you and kids) remain at home just where you belong. She's the one who wants out, so she'll have to face the consequences.

Hi Lexxxy,

Right now there is N/C with the OP and I strongly believe he doesn't want us to DV or have anything to do with her. She said "I want to be alone to figure out what I want to be happy", what she's saying is that she wants us to separate so she could pursuit him to come back to her again.

She will not leave without 50/50 custody; since I'm not going to give her that quit easily, she'll need to file for DV to get it. It's going to be ugly.

She hasn't given up on the fantasy that if she can convince the OM that you and her are over -- he will give her another chance.

That is why she is ****** bent on separating. It is NOT because she wants to be alone figuring anything out.

Basically -- she gave him a picture on a marriage on the rocks. Now she has to fulfill that. To show she wasn't lying.

So she's been trying to manipulate you into amicably separating -- to make this all as easy as possible. She's trying to convince you that she just needs some time to think. That way she gets out, quickly.

You are bending over backwards to be accomodating to her -- thinking that by working with her you're keeping hope alive for your marriage. You've been afraid to get confrontational, because you think you're gonna lose lovebank points. Thats just not true.

By standing up for yourself and your marriage -- and FIGHTING HER -- you will gain respect from her.
Stand up for what is right! She knows how wrong she is!
She KNOWS!

So -- do Plan A to perfection! Identify what went wrong and fix it. And show her that its fixed.
Set your date for Plan B. When that time comes, don't be afraid to confront her!

At that time, tell her that you acknowledge where you let her down. You've done X, Y, and Z to fix it. You are committed to her and the family. You want to recover.
But open the cage door -- you cannot force her to stay. And you won't accept her without her 100% committment to the family. Its time for her to leave. Tell her its time for her to find a place to live by (date). (I'd give her a couple weeks to get out)

Don't be afraid of ugly! You have integrity on YOUR side.

During the limbo time -- after you've made your announcement, and while you are waiting for her to go -- detach from her. Here is where your 180 behavior will be impactful.

Have your Plan B letter ready -- give it to her on the day she moves out. Will you have an intermediary? Who will that be?

Don't cooperate with anything she proposes. If she wants an agreement -- do it all through attorneys. Fight for every inch -- alimony, (do you still have to pay child support if you have them 50% of the time?) Reduce what you would have to give her by every dime you can -- make things financially uncomfortable for her.

Lexxxy,

I agreed with your assessment with WW’s thinking about being alone and her fog talking/thinking. She wants to convince the OP that her M is over and slowly she wants to pull him back into the A. She will go as far as DV to convince him of that, I’m sure. She already knows that the OP would not jump right back into it with her; she said she just want to continue to be friends with him (more Foggy talk again). I could talk to him and let him know what she is doing; that may convince him to N/C even if we separated. What do you think?

She has already said she’ll give me till the end of March to get her love back for me, if not she wants a separation. Should I use that date as my Plan B date or should I do it earlier to catch her off guard? I think I could use a friend of ours as intermediary and occasional her Dad, between the two of them it should be fine. But do I need an intermediary because exchanging of the children will be a pain.

Yes, I would have to pay her alimony and CS even with 50/50 custody so I’m not sure I want to get attorneys involved. I’ll try to do it informally so I don’t have those obligations until DV but of course it would make it easier for her. Don’t know until we get there.

bump, need advise from last post.

Think about this -- if you were dating someone, would you say "hmmm I will give this 3 months and if I haven't fallen in love with you, its over". What a ridiculous way to look at a relationship!

She is not receptive to being in love with you -- she will fight it every inch! Its twice as hard for you to make LB deposits as OM. She is open and willing to receive deposits from him.

Her deadline is absolutely USELESS -- because she is completely closed to you. She is not going to allow herself to be in love with you.

Right now, what she is trying to do is allow enough time to pass -- with the affair being "over" so that people won't connect the separation with the affair. She thinks she will be able to tell people that for the last 6 months you have been going to marriage counseling and working on the marriage -- but it just won't work. She's tried so hard () to make it work....

Then she will leave, have 50% of her time to pursue OM. And you'll be supporting her. Sweet deal for her!

I think strategically your best bet is that when she leaves make things as financially difficult as you can. Minimal CS / No alimony until divorce finalized -- and drag your feet on the divorce as long as possible.

Hopefully in that timeframe, she will experience enough consequences to come out of the fog.

Lexxxy,

Sad but I think you're correct that we'll end up S or worst, DV next year. I'll make sure it'll be financially and custody wise very difficult for her. She wants the 50/50 to be switching the kids every few days with her being able to see the kids every day when she picks them up at the bus stop. She doesn't miss them or me at all since she sees us everyday. I'm need to go dark with Plan B, hence I'm going to ask for switching the kids every week.

Should I let the OP know what she's up to and give him a heads up? At least this will let him know how deceptive her plans are.

Lexxxy and others,

I really need you guys support today, it was one of the hardest weekend.

Last Friday afternoon, one of her trusted friend confirms WW plan to fake working on our M these next couple of months so I would give her a peaceful separation. She has already made up her mind to leave me and pursue the OP. There is N/C between WW and OP right now, but the OP is waiting for her when she finished her business between us. Without reveal my sources, I confronted her with a lot of LB and she confirmed her intention. Initially I told her I love her and I would give her the S with 50% custody. That same day, I come to my senses and I told her I made a mistake and I’ll not support the S. She could leave if she wants but I will not give her the 50% custody.

Help me, I’m going back to the same point I know, but should I keep her home temporarily by using the children as a pawn? A lot of my friends as well as the MC are suggesting that I need to let her go and let her make up her own mind. She would only resent me that much more because I’m forcing her to stay because of the children.

I know I’m pathetic but I’m so lost right now.

Mike --
I hope others will join in here -- because I think my opinion will be harsh.

There is NOTHING you can do to prevent her from following this course of action. You can Plan A standing on your head and spinning circles -- it will do no good.

Unfortunatly for all of you -- I think she will have to go through the whole process of leaving, finding out the OM isn't all she thinks he is -- before her eyes will open to your changes.

I think you have a very long road ahead of you. Your best bet is to make this as uncomfortable (financially and exposure-wise) as possible.

At the same time -- you need to be the lighthouse. You have to be the attractive alternative to the mess of a life she would have with OM.

No, keeping her home is only prolonging the whole process.
You can't force her to stay, nor should you want to force her. Open the cage -- let her go. But not the nice easy way she wants it.

Keep the kids. Be truthful to everyone about whats happening (including kids). And don't support her financially until forced to.

In NJ -- if you have had a consultation with an attorney, can that attorney still take your wifes case? If not, I'd suggest talking to every top notch attorney around. Leave her with few options!

Mr. Wondering???

Lexxxy, you are not harsh just reality that I need to come to realized.

Sadly to said I just found out that she’s in contact again. The only way she’ll go is to have the kids at least half time so keeping the kids full time will not be possible. I have run out of people to expose to and I really don’t think it’s going to help at this point. She’ll only resent me that much more, so I think I need to ask for a separation with 50% custody and go dark Plan B. It’s about the only thing left to do until Plan D.

I wish I have more opinions from others on my on going saga.

I also thinking about giving her full custody with only weekend visit every other weeks and let her and the OP feel the full family obligation. I know this is crazy but just a though.

DO NOT do that Mike. Remember Papa of 3????

Mike,

Not no but ****** no!! You stand up and man up for your children. Your WW has a choice in this but the kids are being dragged along because of her entitlement, selfishness and irratic and unstable behavior. Do not give this woman custody of any sort if it can be helped in a court of law. She and OM are all that matters and the children will be left out in the cold during the times they are with them. She can't take her eyes off herself and OM long enough to be a good mother otherwise she would be working on your M.

This is a terrible idea and will have no effect except seeing that you get a divorce, see your children 4 times per month and allow you to write a child support check while your WW and OM make happy in fantasy land and you are left wondering what happened to your family. She and OM will learn soon enough that there are reasons that 95% Plus of affairs and affair marriages implode. Let them do it on their own. But, you protect those kids with all that you have!

Mike -- I don't completely disagree with you.
That plan leaves her little time to be the sexy single woman she is imagining.

(speaking as a FWW who wanted 50/50 custody -- but had NO PLAN to bring OM into family life! I wanted 50% of my time free for him, and the other 50% as devoted mommy. My kids would have HATED OM. And I suspect yours would too. I forget how old your kids are.)

However -- I wouldn't *legally* give up your 50/50 rights.
Plus I would make her be the one to move.
Plus I would insist that no other people are introduced to the children for a year (or longer if you can get it!)
Plus I would get minimal child support -- and no alimony until divorce is final (and DRAG THAT OUT!)

My advice would be so different if you lived elsewhere, but it seems like she's not ever going to have less than 50/50.

If you are going to propose her moving out, I would start introducing some of the Plan B elements -- make her understand that its not going to be friendly or amicable. Let her know she's not going to be able to speak or see you again.

Change your post title and see if you can get Mr. Wondering in here!

I disagree about the 50/50 thing if it can be helped. The courts often take the path of least resistance in custody battles and if a precedent is set and the children "appear" to be doing okay traveling to and from every other week then the judge may say that this is what needs to continue and issue his order as such.

As far as providing alimony or child support goes, this to is a bad idea. She is the cheating, lying, wayward. Why are you going to give her anything without a court order to do so? If you have "at least" 50/50 and she has committed adultery and continues to do so in your face and to the detriment of your children why is she entitled to alimony. At this point she is the OM's problem to keep up. Let him do "everything" for her. You should do nothing for her. Nothing!

Someone said "never shelter someone from the consequences of their decisions". This applies to your WW.

Lexxxy and others,

I agreed to the 50/50 late last night and she is moving to her dad’s apartment tonight with the kids until she find a place to live. I’ll get the kids this weekend and full week next week. Then she will get the kids the next week and so on… I never see someone run out so quick. This is an informal separation and we agree to not introduce the kids to other people. No CS or alimony. Under the circumstances, this is the best I could do with custody under the law of my state which bias against the husband. I need to let her go and stop the pain and heal; this is the worst thing that I have to go through.

I’ll start Plan B once she find a place and move out all of her things. I’m going to 180 for now because we have to get our business in order until she moved.

BTW, my kids are young, D9 & S7.

Does your father in law understand what the situation is? That she is moving there to further her affair?
Do you have a good relationship with him?

Tell us more about this apartment -- does he dad live there also, or is this a rental property? Does she have room for the kids?

So for now, you don't have to support her -- that is good!
Start stockpiling some money if you can. Pay the household bills and save what you can.

Don't let her take anything except her personal belongings. No furniture, pictures, etc -- until you have a settlement agreement.

What about school for your kids? How far away is this apartment from their friends and activities? If she is removing them from everything they love and are comfortable with, they will start complaining! Make sure they know the truth. That daddy wants the family together, and mommy doesn't. Make sure they know mommy isn't allowed to bring her BF around them, and if she does to tell you right away (because you are protecting them!)

and Mike? I know you're taking this hard and missing her and the kids.

But PLEASE look at this as the beginning of the END of her affair! OM is not going to want her baggage. Really, while she might be the perfect wife for you -- from the OM's perspective -- she has a lot of baggage.

From his point of view -- do you really think he wants to take on a married woman with 2 children (who will hate him) that has no money and works only part-time? Not really a very attractive package when you stop to think about it....

Mike

Under the circumstances you may have done the best you can do with the custody matter. Way to go in not providing alimony or CS, that's her responsibility and comes as part of her new found freedom. I would make it clear that if she violates your agreement to not introduce the OM to the children that you will be forced to look at other options.

When you go dark you need to really go dark and if possible have an intermediary to transfer the children. You should not even see her then if possible. Work on becoming a better man, father, friend, etc and leave her to God.

Wishing you the best in this matter.

Another point to consider:

OM has always seemed to be apologetic and feels like the affair is wrong. One last contact to him explaining that your wife's obsession with him is destroying your family might be in order.

As well as informing his parents! That way if he plans to introduce her -- they will know she's a married woman conducting an affair with their son. And that his involvement with a married woman has destroyed 2 little kids' family. I know you said he is from out of state -- but this would be worthwhile to do. Investigate!

Do you have a Plan B letter ready?
Do you have an intermediary?

Plan your custody days carefully so that YOU have them on Christmas (huge family oriented holiday) -- and SHE has them on New Years (no going out to play with OM)

If you can structure it, cut her out completely at Christmas! Simply tell her its too painful for you to be around her. And that its time for both you and her to adjust to the new reality.

Lexxxy and Hope,

She wants to talk to him first then I’ll call him tomorrow. I do have a good relationship with him but he’s her father and I don’t think he’ll abandon her. He’s in a two bedroom apartment with his second wife (my WW’s mom passed away 5 yrs ago), it’s about 7 miles from our house. The spare bedroom is a small office; it will be cram to fit one small bed, they most likely will use that as well as sofa in the living room. We don’t have any problem with finances so money is not an issue, we have enough savings. I have already told her she needs to buy everything new because she’s not allowed to take anything out of the house. I also told my children about my WW’s plan to live with Grandpa and told them that are not my decision; I don’t want anyone to leave.

I don’t know how the OP thinks about WW with 2 children, I think they probably will not rush back into the A, instead they’ll try to show people that they falls back in love for one another and are meant to be. I don’t have his parent’s info, I have tried but have not found it yet.

I have Plan B letter ready but after last night, it needs to be edited. I have intermediary ready but it may be hard to execute during exchange every week, but I will work on it.

Lexxxy and Others,

It was a big blow (LB) between us last night; I was in deep depression all day yesterday about letting WW go and giving up 50% of the kids. WW was having problem with child care as well as not be able to see the kids and do homework with them everyday because of our arrangement to have the kids each week. She wants to negotiate a more flexible deal where I take the kids to school in the morning when she have to go to her part time job so she could pick them up at the bus stop and do homework with them. I told her that I’m not going to support her schedule, this is a separation and she needs to get her child care arrangement herself. She started to get mad and I finally have enough that I told her our deal is off and she needs to talk to my lawyer in order to get custody, she could leave but not with the kids. Lot of LB between us all night, it was horrible.

I don't think thats a bad thing Mike -- its a consequence of her choices.

She (amazingly) thinks this shouldn't be painful for her, she doesn't think she should have to give up anything!
And she also thinks she can use anger to manipulate you into getting what she wants.

Good for you in holding your ground! And good for you in not accomdating her!

I agree!!!

Update:

I agreed to the 50/50 custody because WW is determine to move out of the house to find what makes her happy (fog talk: pursuit her A). At this time she doesn’t want any financial support, no CS or alimony from me. WW started the move to her apartment yesterday and will be completely moved out of our house after Christmas day. I have asked her if she wants a DV and she says she doesn’t want one. However, she will give me a DV if this would help me cope with the situation. She would rather see us go through a mediator than lawyers to save money. She also says that she would give me the house because what she has put me through and she knows how much the house means to me. I doubt she will give me the house without any compensation, so I don’t know what it means when she says that she’ll give me the house. I’m debating if I should just go for DV instead of Plan B.

This is the worst Christmas ever, some thoughts on how to proceed?

As I said before, let her experience the consequences of her decisions. Yes, she will try and make you out to be a bad guy for HOLDING HER ACCOUNTABLE, don't let her. DO NOT LB, DJ, Etc. Simply, calmly state your conditions and boundaries and if she starts rationalizing, justifying, screaming, etc then simply walk away until she can talk to you without doint so. Never say anything you don't mean. If you tell her she cannot do something then mean it.

I for one would tell her that if she can't make the proposal you drafted work then you are perfectly willing and condident in allowing the court to determine what is in the best interests of the children and leave it at that.

Every WS on earth would prefer to use mediator's and settle thing nice and easy -- rather than get drug through the mud and courts.

I guess if you are going to negotiate with her and agree to things -- you may as well do it now, she most likely to give you anything you want if she can get out easily and without a lot of fuss from you.

No, she probably doesn't want a divorce -- if she can put you on ice until she's done playing around in her affair.
I see you getting railroaded just like Papaof3 did.
She wants out, she's manipulating you to get what she wants. She won't budge on working on the marriage.

There's very little you can do in Plan A. Its Plan B and the consequences that will turn her around.

Get the best financial settlement out of her. Push her to give you the house free and clear. Then go to Plan B.

I just want to secure my finance for me and the children. By forcing her to stay in the M is not a solution either. I have been doing it for the last 2 months but it just getting nasty and phsical everyday.

I’m thinking about asking her for a DV after our son’s B-day which is end of Jan. Am I making a big mistake in this approach, DV then Plan B?

That isn't what this program is about Mike.
Do you want to save your marriage?

Have you been doing a good Plan A?
If you can't do that any longer then Plan B.
Stop throwing around the "D" word.

Get your finances secured, but don't go filing for divorce unless you want one. And in that case -- its a sure sign that you've Plan A's too long and lost your love for her.

Plan B is about avoiding divorce while protecting your feelings from her actions.

Mike - Get a plan and stick to it. Don't make up your own. Talk to an attorney and see if you and your wife can make a binding agreement to settle things financially now. In California, you can, and the court will look it over to see if it is fair, and go with it.

Mine cost $300. WH wrote it out. When our attorney wrote it up, and it was time to sign, WH refused. But to me it was worth trying, because it would have saved $10,000. in attorneys fees.

I do want to save my M so you guys are 100 percent correct, I'll go dark Plan B shortly after she move out on Christmas day. Most likely the start of the New Year.

So, do you have the house all clean and fixed up for the holidays? Presents for the kids?

My WW is still home and she is a clean freak, the house is always clean. Presents are ready for the kids, she's the one that does all the shopping. I got her a nice set of ear rings as gift from the kids, she wouldn't want anything from me directly.

And are you doing anything with the kids for the holidays? Going out seeing the lights, making things, etc?

I planned to be off from work between Christmas and New Year, I plan to do things with them then. The kids been sick the last two week from the cold, I just been staying at home with them and play games and keep them busy.

My Plan B letter, please advise:

Love,

Letting you go and giving up half of my time with our children are the hardest thing that I have ever done. I want you to understand that it was never about saving face or my ego that I want to be with you; it’s simply me trying desperately to save our marriage and keeps the family intact. I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair possible. I foolishly pursued my career and interest without understanding my responsibility to meet your emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most and we are now both suffering from my mistake. I have made many mistakes in the past and cannot change them. What I have been able to do is recognize those errors and I have learned from them so that I can take steps to ensure that they will not happen again.

Love, I just want you to know that I still willing to do whatever it takes to correct the mistakes that we have made in the past and make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. I simply cannot do this until you end your relationship with him. You must know and realize the pain and suffering that I have endured because of your relationship with him. I simply cannot endure this pain anymore and for that reason I cannot see you or speak to you until you’re willing to recommit to our marriage. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, please email or leave voice mail at work.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. I simply cannot see or talk to you any longer, knowing that there will be more than just me and you. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions. As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from him, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other’s emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt one another. We need to build a new life in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be my best friend as well.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing him.

Love always,
Mike

If you want your marriage to work, be firm. Don't file for DV, let her do the dirty work.

I talked to Papa of 3, he said do not give in to her demands!

How's my Plan B letter above? Any suggestion to improve?

I would not go into details about what you did that was wrong (this could be used against you later if D). I would simply say that you take responsibility for those things that you did that contributed to the state of the M and that you have changed, are changing and are willing to work hard to build a new, better marriage where both spouses needs are met.

That the family, children are best served by you two attempting to build this NEW marriage together.

Mention not only separation from the OM but that there must be no contact established as this R with this OM is toxic to your new M and its growth. Explain that there are numerous examples of couples who have built wonderful, NEW (that word again) marriages from the ashes of heartbreak and disillusionment but none have been successful when a third party was involved.

Thanks for your inputs to my Plan B letter, is there others?

I like to start Plan B at the beginning of the New Year but my son's B-day party with his school friends is near the end of January. Should I not attend the party? I'm still going to celebrate his B-Day with my side of the family.

Anyone with inputs to my Plan B letter? Just wanted to make sure I execute Plan B as best as I can.

You need to state more firmly the conditions that must be met before you break your plan B.

1. NC with OM EVER again.

2. Switching all contact information so that OM has no way of contacting you.

3. Complete O&H including accounting for your time, and any other necessary measure to protect your M from another A.

4. 100% effort into rebuilding the marriage including MC and the MB program.

Make sure she knows your conditions so she can't come back and say, "well I'm not talking w/ OM anymore," but refuses to account for her time or share her email password because "that wasn't part of the deal." This will allow you to prevent fluctuating back and forth into Plan B and failed recoveries.

Latest:

WW moved out of our house and into an apartment on Christmas day. She stays long enough for the kids to open their present. We’re having 50/50 custody and I'm planning to give her the Plan B letter this weekend.

WW is asking me to pay half of her credit card bill because she brought all the kids toys on it. Should I pay half of it? What would you do?

Did you pay for gifts for the kids on your own? If so then I would let her cover her gifts.

Is it a joint account? If not, no.

Do you have a legal separation agreement outlining custody? If you do not have all that stuff taken care of she call pull all sorts of dramatic crap on you...don;t enable her by paying half of anything....

Actually she already paid it, it's her account with me being an additional card holder. They do have my SS number so I don't know and they could tell me if it's joint or not.

This is not a legal separation, so no formal agreement. We did sign an agreement on 50/50 custody.

you're looking for trouble...you're trusting an untrustworthy person in many areas...

if they have your SS# it may be a joint account. Check with them!! Cancel all joint accounts...

This agreement on custody that you mentioned. Is this something you and your wife drew up an signed or is it legally binding? My attorney told me that an agreement my now EX WW and I had signed together was not enforceable in court if either of us violated it.

Sendme, My WW may be a cheater but she wouldn’t jeopardize her credit; we both have excellence credit. Once I get my automatic transfer accounts change over to my own credit cards, I will start canceling my name off all the joint credit cards.

Hope, The agreement is something we drew up, signed and notarized. I don’t see why it would not hold up in court.
Do you think I should refuse to pay her for half the credit card bill?

Check with your attorney to see if the agreement is enforceable and no, I would not pay anything on her credit card.

Look, my advice is what it is....and you're not going to like this but here comes a 2x4!!

What color is the sky in your world? What does this mean? "Once I get my automatic transfer accounts change over to my own credit cards, I will start canceling my name off all the joint credit cards"

My FWW had to pay me almost $100,000, spend $25,000 on an attorney, refinanced a paid off house, and did all sorts of other things I never expected (like bang a man almost twice her age a few times)....during our divorce....and we both HAD (I REPEAT HAD) spotless credit.....

As far as your "agreement"...custody is approved by the courts, not by "agreement"...see judges like it when there's an agreement cause it makes the entire process easier...but you're fooling yourself if you think its enforceable....in fact you're being much more than a fool....

From where I am sitting you can really take a beating...you can stand there and remain a victim or take charge...

Pay the credit card bill?? Why would you do this?? For her??

There's my opinion....and what I would do if faced with your choices....the rest is clearly up to you...I wish you the best...

I do notice that Melody is not really involved in this thread....I know there's a reason... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hope, I did check with my attorney before signing the agreement, the 50/50 custody is the best I could get in my state so he advised me to sign it and have it notarized. Like Send me on my way is saying, it may not be enforceable in court as is but this will make it easier for the judge to decided if need be.

Sendmeonmyway, Thanks for the 2X4, I’m in the process of canceling joint credit cards as fast as I can but I have a few bills that automatic deduct from the cards that requires sending in written letter/forms to be able to change the cards. I’m working on them as quickly as possible. I will not pay her credit card, thanks.

In your opinion, what else should I be doing to protect myself?

As to Melody, I don’t know why she hasn’t posted; maybe something I did/didn’t do. I do value her opinion very much and I do hope that she would post here or let me know why. For whatever reason, I could not edit the subject line for this thread.

mike, I am a CPA, cancel your card and then submit new card number to person you need to pay bills...trust me....first time your card comes back "no good" they will contact you!!

In order to protect yourself: Run credit report and check for joint debt. Cancel it all!!

1. Make sure custody arrangement is agreeable to attorney and that child support is mentioned...Make sure that this is not a "friend who has been through it" but a qualified attorney in your state!!!

Mike...one of the most frustrating things about helping folks out here are the ones "that think they know better"...

If you're doing Plan B you must be ready...very ready....Plan B is for YOU!!! Plan B is also what prepares you for life without your spouse. It is hard but we will help you through it...

As far as Mel goes...I can;t speak for her but as I read your thread I thought about how frustrated I was with you!!! And I am a cupcake compared to her....

Good luck....

Sendmeonmyway, I’ll run a credit report; we don’t have much debt but would credit card accounts show up in the report?

The reason my attorney is not seeking a formal agreement is that he didn’t want me to pay child support or alimony. At this time, WW has not retained an attorney and are not asking for CS or alimony but if I ask for a formal agreement through the court, she would definitely get one. He said this is the best situation for me; she moved out of the house and a written agreement specifying custody. He said that I’m not liable for child support or alimony until a DV is filed.

I know I may be difficult at times where my indecisions get the best of me and may have frustrated others. This is the scariest thing that I ever encounter and it’s difficult to make the right decisions at times. I hope you all could understand.

I’ll give her the Plan B letter this weekend and let her know that I can’t pay half of her card. She's mostly will file for DV once she learned that I'm not going to pay but that's her decision.

Thanks,

Not SENDME here but yes your credit cards will show up. You may want to splurge for a credit report from all three major credit reporting bureaus (look them up on the internet).

We know too well what you are going through. It is hard but you must remain strong, pay attention, focus and have and execute a plan.

You mentioned that she will file for D once you tell her you are not paying. Well isn't that just like a WW/WH. When they don't get their way they take their ball and go home. Do you want to be near or M to a person who is in this state of mind? NO!! Until and if your wife ever shows her head again then you can worry about being a good husband. Right now you are dealing with the WAYWARD alien, know this.

I should be getting my credit report today, a friend of mine in the banking business is running it for me. All but one of the card are canceled.

My WW called late last night to see how I'm doing and to tell me she thinks she's going to miss not seeing the kids the entire week next week. I'm going to have the kids for the entire week for the first time next week. I told her calmly that this is what she wanted and we both have to live with not be able to see the kids every other week.

Then she asked if I'm going to pay half of her card and I told her that I been paying it for the longest time and now is time for her to pitch in. I told her that I'll not going to help her financially; she got really pissed and threaten to file for DV for principle (imagine that). I told her I don't want to fight and hang up on her. Let's wait and see if she file, but I'm sure she will.

It sounds like you need a very dark Plan B.....you need to get away from her madness...and accept the fact that she will file for Dv...

Know what I say? So what.....

Listen...read my story....never say never....

Like I said before...It's amazing how their true selves come out when they don't get their way. Let her file. If this woman is going to file over that then she was going to file anyway. Make her do all the work.

mike,

Remember this is the same WW that was going to work on your M (NOT) until marchI think it was then make the decision whether to stay or file. I think you may have just moved up the date a little. But at least you know what is in store for you instead of being blindsided by it. Just get prepared to do battle.

Send, hope and JKG,

Thanks for all of your supports and comments.

This is how I figure it; she is going to threaten DV anytime things don’t go her way so why not just let her do it now. I know that she’ll be asking me to pay when the bills arrive each and every month so I either save some $$ now or else just keep my wallet wide open for the duration. I will certainly be ready for the paper when served, but I’ll be crushed nevertheless. This is just so sad.

I got my credit report and it is fine, no crazy charges. I do have more open credit cards than I thought so I have a lot of work to do and get them closed.

Latest:

I gave WW my Plan B letter yesterday. She has been sending email asking for $$ to pay her bill but I just ignored them. She told our DD that she'll be showing up at her basketball game tomorrow but I asked her not to go to the game since this is my week and I want NC with her but she refused. I threaten to have pictures of her and her boy toy to distribute to the other parents if she shows up.

Is the $$ situation and how I’m handling the NC LB and further pushing her away from me? She is furious to say the least.

Just ignore her. No threat, no contact at all. Let her spew her venom at the OM. If she runs into you, ignore her. Don't talk to her, don't look her in the eye, just walk out the door without acknowledging her presence. Let your friends at the game know of your intentions. Right now she is dead to you.

Jim,

Are you saying that I should not distribute the pictures of the cheating couple if she shows up? I did threaten her with this.

One more thing, I'm thinking about distribute the picture of the two of them and title it "Cheating Couple" at the gym where they met; he works there as her personal trainer. I never expose them there because she never went back to the gym after D-Day but will be going there now that we are separated.

What do you think?

Exposure is something you do in Plan A. Plan B is completely wiping the WS out of your life. You don't even want to think about her. No more spying, no more talking about her. You couldn't care less about her unless she is agreeing to your Plan B letter conditions for reconciliation. You shouldn't have even talked to her and threatened her with that. Go dark, VERY DARK!

MikeTC,

I'm very disturbed by the picture thing at a kid's event. This is definitely wrong. Don't do things of that sort around your children. Leave your fighting with your W private. It is more appropriate to spread those pics at the gym he works.

When it comes to events for your kids, you should BOTH participate and do so in peace for the time period the event lasts. Doing otherwise will mess up your kids. Believe me.

I wouldn't expose at his work since I'm in Plan B. I want to go very Dark but if she start showing up at these events, it wouldn't work. Between the two kids, there must be 4 to 6 events per week. How do others handle that in Dark Plan B?

Miketc,
You need to support your children. Do not be vindictive around the kids. Do not argue around the kids. Do not talk bad about your WW or OM around your kids. Do not discuss your problems around the kids.
DO tell them that you love them. DO spend time with them. DO tell them that you will be there for them. DO show up at all the events that they are in. DO HUG them as much as you can. DO make there favorite dinners. DO smile always around the kids. DO not say no to them, if they ask you to do something DO IT.

Plan B is a hard thing to do. You want to strike back but do not. Plan B is to let her find out for herself if she wants you or the OM. If the OM can provide all the emotional needs of hers. You have been providing some EN and OM has been supplying some. Plan B test to see if the OM will supply those other needs. Plan B makes the WW see if the OM is really it or a fantasy. WW need to see the OM in dirty underwear, bad breathe, farting, bad habits. Is that what the WW wants?

Go to the 4 to 6 events a week but sit on the other side of the room. Do not look at her or talk to her. Call the kids over and talk to them. If you have to you can go to the kids if they are with her but do not acknowledge her. You need to show the kids that you are strong and will be there for them. You need to show the WW that you no longer need her and do not react to her. COLD but strong.

Good luck think smart and act smart and treat you children good

Actually, exposure is recommended in Plan B also to maintain the spotlight on their sleazy affair. I remember SH telling me once to hold off on exposure until I go into Plan B. As long a you want to continue to fight for your M then continue to expose to those that would have an influence on the A. If scumbag OM is her personal trainer then I would expose at their gym since I'm sure this is a code of conduct issue for OM.

The good thing about exposing in Plan B is that she will not have you to unleash her venom on.

I don't think you can keep her from showing up to the kids functions. In that case you go as if she does not exist...do not acknowledge her...just focus on your children.

And stop the threats and ultimatums...they NEVER work and will backfire when you don't follow through.

HTW

With a heavy hand, I conviced WW not to attend the kid's fuctions when they're with me. I talked with my DD9 about it and told her that I love her and her brother7 and that that I'll always be there for them both. She's sad about the situation but she's showing me how strong she is and be ok with it. I'm so proud of her.

I'll stop with the threats and ultimatums; I'll no longer requested that WW not showing up at the kids fuctions but I'll not be inviting her either.

I feel more at peace with myself and my current situation now that I'm in Plan B. I have the kids this week and so far it has been great. Yesterday I went shopping with the two of them for my son's birthday present which is this Friday. I invited my family (my parents, three sisters and their family) for a sleep over. My wife have never invited them for a sleep over during our M so this is new to us all. It will be fun for all the kids (total 5) and they are all excited about it.

Stay strong Mike

I had a good weekend. It was my DS7’s Birthday and I had my family over (15 people; seven people and a dog slept over) for two days of celebration. The B-party was Friday night and the kids (five total, age 5 to 10) stay up late playing. Saturday, the entire family went and watches both my children and my nephew’s basketball games. Three games in all; it was exhausting but fun nevertheless. I cooked a wonderful dinner for my family afterward; it turns out great and my mother couldn’t believe that I could cook such an impressive meal. She was so proud.

WW left our house 3 weeks ago and I’m in Plan B for about two weeks. This Sunday, when WW comes to pick-up the kids for her custody week, WW asked to talk to me for a few minutes (I stay in the family room and didn’t greet her at the door). I told her I don’t want to talk and she should send me an email instead. She disregards my request and come into the family room and told me she misses me and needs to talk. I told her I don’t want a face to face but will take her call that night.

During the call I mostly listen, she told me that she misses me; she misses the kids when she doesn’t have them, our home and married life. She asked me to give her time to work out her feeling for me and wait for her if I could. She said the only way she could recommit to our marriage is be able to love me again; unfortunately she does not have the love for me right now. She said she is not dating or sleeping with the OP but they are talking. They want to remain “friends” and they both agreed that she should work her way back to our marriage; for us and for the children. Coming back to me is her ultimate goal but she need time to be able to fall in love again. She even talks about us dating next month or two.

I told her there will not be any us; no dating, talking or otherwise if the OP is in the picture. I told her she needs to figure what she wants but do not involve me at this time. I’m going to stay in my dark Plan B and not talking to her until she complies with the Plan B letter.

I know that WW is fog talking but still dumfounded by her nevertheless. I do believe she is sincere about she needs to be in love with me before she could recommit to our marriage. Please comment and give me some insight of WW’s thinking.

The next time she wants to "talk" to you, ask her if she has ended all contact with OM and is ready to commit to the marriage. If the answer is "no," politely end the call and ask her to contact you only when that happens.

Breaking no contact to have these discussions ruins your credibility in Plan B, so they should be avoided at all costs. No contact means no contact, no emails, no phone calls, no nothing.

When Plan B starts to get uncomfortable, a WS will do exactly what yours did. She will ask for a "discussion" to ensure herself that you will wait on the sidelines while she has her affair. Assuring her of this allows her to stay out there and have her affair for another day.


She won't be "in love" as long as she is having an affair. Once the affair ends, her thoughts will probably turn back to you.

To avoid her coming in your house at will like this, I would suggest changing the locks and sending the kids out when she arrives. She should not be coming in the house at all. She has left your family and should no longer have the run of your house. It is very disrespectful of her to refuse to respect your request for no contact.

resend the NC letter. Nothing else.

Like Mel said. She is trying to keep waiting you while she continues the A.

She needs to begin to feel like you may just be moving on. Keep her totally in the Dark until she recommits 100%.

Hi Melody, Nice to hear from you, I was afraid that you may have gave up on me.

Mel and others,

Thanks for your inputs; this place is godsend for me with supports from all of you.

I agree, breaking the N/C with WW do nothing for me emotionally or our M. I also agreed she wants me to be waiting in the wings while she have her cake and eat it too. No more talking and stay dark until WW ends her relationship with the OP. We do need to email to discuss about the kids but nothing else will be discussed.

The locks were changed but with two young children and no go between, she needs to come to the door and pick up/drop off the week’s kid’s stuff. She was supposed to just pick up and go.

Hey Mike! I would suggest getting an intermediary for this. Only allow her to contact you in the case of an EMERGENCY. Much of the need for contact can be completely avoided with a strict visitation schedule. Place a folder in the kids backpacks and put ESSENTIAL paperwork, such as teacher conferences, doctors visits, etc. No notes, though.

Email contact never fails to turn into other contact and keeps you enmeshed and prevents you from withdrawing from her. You won't be able to detach from her until all contact has ended. This also allows her to play "friend," which is something she needs to feel free to pursue her affair.

How old are your kids?

Mike,
You need to have someone else present for the kid switch.
Someone that can manage the transfer so you can hide. Can't you have a family member there? Or a friend?

Do not give her the "fix" of you.

I wholeheartedly agree with the others -- she's trying to ensure that she hasn't pushed you too far away. That is exactly what you should NOT reinforce. That you are still there and love her....she SHOULD fear that you're moving on.

This is EXACTLY what happened in my case. My WW tried testing the waters a few times, each time showing more and more remorse to see if had "moved on". I finally caved and accepted an invitation for dinner to which she promptly cancelled 2 days later.

As Lexxxy said, she got her fix of me and knows I still pine for her. That just made me more resolved and I won't be fooled next time.

Listen to the advice you have been given.

Mel, We do have folders in the kids backpack for that purpose. DD9 and DS7.

I hear ya LOUD AND CLEAR, Sunday’s talk only ensure her that I’m still waiting and she’ll not get that from me anymore. I’ll never play friend with her; I would only play husband or co-parent with WW, that’s all. I would never accept dinner invitation or any invitations from her until Plan B letter is followed.

I know what you guys are saying about intermediary. I just don’t want to burden others with my problems anymore than necessary but I’ll get an intermediary if she violates our N/C in the coming weeks. I’m going to wait and see whether email is effective or not (it has been so far); if it gets too attached or entangled then I will handle it differently.

Thanks for the reinforcement (2X4).

Mike, just the EXISTANCE of the emails undermines the purpose of Plan B. The goal of Plan B is to remove you COMPLETELY from her sphere so you can detach. No contact AT ALL. If you are getting emails, it will prevent detachment.

As long as you have a strict visitation schedule and are passing ESSENTIAL papers through backpacks, there should be no need for any emails. Only emergencies would be legitimate contact.

A 7 and a 9 year old are old enough to get in and out of the door on their own. She can let them off in the driveway and you can just send them out when she pulls in.

mike, I would suggest that you actively look for CREATIVE ways to avoid all contact. It really is not that hard when you try. Lots of folks do it on here every day. Hopethisworks can help you in this regard. His children are around the same age as yours and he is DARK as night.

Mel,

The next time she violate N/C, I will initiate strict dropoff/pickup procedure. I’ll not respond or send her email from now on. Thanks,

Good job, mike! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I like to get some opinions on expose during Plan B. First of all, is it advisable to expose during Plan B because I’m supposed to detach myself from the A?

I have been in Plan B for 3 weeks but I have not exposed the A to the gym where the OP works part time as personal trainer and class instructor, this is how they met. I’m thinking about making some fliers with their picture on it and label it “Cheating Couple; she’s married with 2 kids and he’s her personal trainer!!!”. I will put the fliers on the windshields of cars in the gym's parking lot when I know both WW and OP are there. Any thoughts on this tactic?

Remember Exposure is still the best tactic to kill the A. That is the main purpose isn't it? Plan A or B I don't think it makes any difference. Kill the A if you can. IMO

Yes! In one of my sessions with SH he advised that I hold off on exposure of my WW's PA to her family until I get into Plan B. I couldn't wait that long and exposed in while in Plan A.

As long as you do it with the intention to save your M, anytime is a good time.

What about fliers on windshields of cars outside the gym's parking lot? Is this tactic sees as over the top by people looking in from the outside? Like a spouse (me) that can't let go? She may get supports from others that otherwise don't agreed with her prior to this.

Personally, I would target those that could have the greatest impact on breaking up the A. Is it a small gym or a franchise type? If it is small you could contact the owner and let him/her know that you find it unacceptable and will take further action if it is not addressed.

If it is a franchise type, you may contact the corporate VP and district manager.

I would hold off on the flyers although some may encourage this tactic.

I wouldn't do the flyers.
Work with the management of the gym.

I believe it is a small franchise with 12 locations in my state; each location is independently owned and operated. I don’t know who to contact and what to say to them? I’m just afraid if I call the gym directly and ask questions, I may alarm WW & OP. My WW may have told me that he works there as class instructor and as a freelance personal trainer. If they are discreet when they're at the gym, I don't see how management could do anything about it. They may said this is their personal life, what they do outside the gym is their business and would not do anything about it. I don’t know much about this gym and how it’s operate. I'm concern that WW will find out with my fruitless attemp.

Do you have some sort of proof of the A that you could present to management?

well...why?
why are you concerned about her finding out? -- because she's certainly going to find out about the flyers. And she's certainly going to blame you for it.

I just think exposure is intended to be to those who can influence the infidels.

I personally think the flyers is too broad of a target, and seems a little trashy. personal opinion....

Hope, I have pictures of them together and some emails. What I see is that management will say what they do outside the gym is their business.

Lexxxy,
I'm not concern about her finding out but I do want a direct hit before they found out I'm targeting the gym. The reason for the flyers is that it will have more of an impact on the OP because he teaches classes there and will have to stand up front and center facing all his students that have seen the flyers. I know he has a self image / conscience problem already so this may give him a knock out blow. His students are those people that will most affect the infidels (OP). I agreed the fliers are drastic measure; this is why I’m here discussing this before acting upon. I have another week to think this over.

If OM is the target -- seems like a better plan!
Definitely would make him squirm!

I'd get some legal advice to make sure you can't get sued.
Then go for it!

Why would I get sued? What possible ground?

I would contact the owners, board members, and the franchise owners and expose the affair. You should be able to find out all this information on the internet. If not, you can probably call and get the information. Another good exposure target would be the OM's parents.

I would probably just check with attorney before I put fliers out, though. If I worked out at a gym, I would very much want to know if one of their PT's was a sleazebag who fooled around with married women. I BETCHA many husbands would like to know this information TOO! So, when you expose to the gym, just casually ask them what they think the HUSBANDS of their female gym members would think about this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You have so much power over this guy and I can't believe you aren't using it!

Mel, Not much on the internet of contacting the owners but I think I'll put out the fliers before contacting the gym's management. I scheduled a face to face with my attorney tomorrow and this is one of my questions. The OM's parents are in another state but I have no way of knowing how to contact them.

I assume you support exposure during Plan B then?

Mike-

Don't do the flyers. That's not the kind of exposure this site advocates. The purpose of exposure is to get the people who have some influence on your spouse (and the OP) to assist you in convincing the affair partners to end the affair. The best way to go about that is to contact those people directly, explain to them clearly what's going on, and to point blank ask their assistance in saving your marriage. And the message they should get from you is that you're doing this because you love your wife and want to save your marriage.

That is NOT the message that will come across in flyers. Bluntly, that's just a way of 'striking back' at OM and WW...and will do nothing but harm your situation. Think about it. It's one thing to have his boss come up to him and say "hey, I've been informed that you may have been conducting some unprofessional behavior here at the gym"...and another for him to find that flyer on his car. Your WW would CORRECTLY interperet this as an attack on her and OM...it couldn't possibly be seen as a loving attempt to save your marriage.

Not to mention you won't get the business owners to work with you...they'll be angry at the attack on their business, and work AGAINST you.

Think about it.

Do this the right way...or give up now. Up to you.

Mike, I have to say I agree with Owl. And here is why. Those owners might not know he is an adulterer and it wouldn't be fair to ruin their business without giving them a chance to fix the problem. If it were me, I would expose to the franchise owners and everyone else I mentioned.

Have you tried to find his parents on www.peoplefinder.com?

And yes, I do agree you should expose.

I contacted the manager of the gym but he refused to identify the owner. He told me the OP bring in (his clients) sign members to the gym and he provide two classes for free while he gets free use of the gym for his freelance personal training. He told me that he was not aware of the A and they don’t have any standard in place in regards to instructors hitting on married female guests. He will have a sit down with OP and talk about it. I asked if I could call back and find out the outcome of that conversation, but the manager said that is between him and OP and he would not go further with me. I asked if the ramification would be OP loss his privilege for the use of the gym but the manager said he can’t do that because the gym will lose members because of it. He said that he will make sure nothing happen while they are at the gym but will not be able to control them outside of it. Like I said earlier, they are discreet while they are at the gym. I told him that I’m meeting up with my lawyer tomorrow and will discuss this with him. As I suspecting, lip service from the management.

I’m also concern about how others see the fliers as a husband not ready to let his separated wife go. I think its best not to do any more exposure since I’m in dark Plan B anyway. I need to detach myself from the A and heal.

If they are independently owned franchises, you could go to the corporate president/owner to get the name of the individual gym's owner. You could go to another gym owned by a different owner to get that info. Trust me, if you look hard enough, you can find whatever you want. Let the franchise president and the individual owner know as well in case the manager is just covering his friend.

Jim,

I'm meeting with my attorney today and will discuss whether any legal action could be brought against the gym or the OP. I know I could get to the owner if I tried hard enough, unless legal action could be brought against the gym I'm leaning toward not pursuit it because I need to detach myself from her and her A. I don't believe the owner would do anything other than 'a talk' with OP; I most likely will get the same lip service that I got from the manager. He's watching out for his own pocket$$.

Jim, I follow some of your stitch and I know you file for DV before your WW's fog clears up, when did you deceided to file and what was your logic in filing?

I never actually filed, but I had a appointment set up to file. I am only 26, I've only been married for 3 years, and I overhead a conversation where my WW told the OM that she was going to be with him once her D was done and she got a job in Boston. I made the decision that it wasn't worth saving the M to me if she continued the A, so I decided on plan B/D. I also figured that since it was long distance and I made a lot more money than my WW, the A would end if I stopped enabling her. I figured if I continued doing what I was doing, she would just keep looking for jobs in Boston (and it would take at least six months) until she finally got one. Well, I thought I would make her make it own her own in St. Louis before that would happen. I secretly wished that cutting her off and kicking her out would get her to agree to NC, and it did. If it didn't however, I was prepared for a D.

Jim,

After 3 weeks of separation, I come to realized that I don’t need WW in my life. Not that I don’t want her in my life but I don’t need her and I know I could do better. I’m feeling stronger and emotionally better everyday when N/C bet me and WW. Even after our Sunday conversation where WW told me she misses me; asked me to give her time and wait for her to get over the OP, I could truly said that I really didn’t care whether she could get over him or not, I’m going to heal myself to the point where I could file for DV without regret. I’m not so certain that I could wait the 18 months as suggested by SH because I think I would like to move on because I deserve someone that truly love me. Don’t get me wrong, I would absolutely work on my M if she comes back fully committed but I would not settle for anything less.

I think by not enabling her when we’re separated have a real affect on her. I know money is a big issue for her because of her limited income and she’s been used to a life style I provided during our M. There was no time in our nearly 12 yrs of M where she has to worry about money and watch her spending. Not that she spent money recklessly during our M but she didn’t have to worry if she has enough money to last for the month. I think living on her own is really giving her a reality check but we have to wait and see.

I'm confused on " secretly wished that cutting her off and kicking her out would get her to agree to NC, and it did."

I decided that I had enough and I was going to divorce her, but I was hoping that she would agree to NC if I didn't divorce her, and that's what happened. So, I didn't divorce her.

Attorney update:

1. Fliers would get me into a lot of legal troubles; so that's out.
2. In my state, there is nothing legally that can be done to OP or the gym that enable the A. Another one down and out.

Back to Dark Plan B.

Firestorm update:

I’m in dark Plan B for about two weeks now and WW is furious about me hanging up on her, not responding to her emails & voice mails. She tried to get me to respond to trivial questions about the kids and finances but I ignored her. She is very controlling and wants to know or resolve everything instantly even when the requests/questions are not emergency in nature.

Yesterday, I guess she had enough and decided to barge into my house when I’m not there. My mother unintentionally let her in thinking it was the kids coming home from school; my mother is helping me out by staying with me when I have the kids. WW carries on in front of the kids and my mother by saying that I’m a bad parent and ignoring her even when it’s about the kids. She wants to take the kids from me, blat, blat, blat…

When I came home, we got in a heated argument about the lack of communications, me contacting the OP’s manager at the gym… She finally said that she had enough and wanted a divorce; she just wants to get me out of her life because I’m trying to control her by calling the gym and tried to get the OP fired.

She does not want a nasty divorce which would only enriched the lawyers while hurting the kids’ education fund because that is where the lawyer’s fees would be coming from. She told me if I give her a peaceful divorce, she would give me the house free and clear without compensation; she only wants to split the rest of our finances and child custody 50/50. She also wants child support and alimony but dropped the alimony request when I told her I hang myself before I give her any alimony for what she done to me and our kids. I told her although her offer was generous; I need time to think this over. She blew-up saying what’s there to think when she basically giving me $200K+ from this divorce; she wants my answer right now and there which I refuse to give her. She said that she is running out of money because of her limited income and me not supporting her and her bills. She’s finding it hard to make ends meet. I told her that this is a huge decision and need time to digest (I want to buy more time and let her drown in her own venom); I also told her I really don’t care about the money but rather have my family intact. I just left it at that and told her to go home to really thing about what she just offered and she did leave hastily.

Before I got home, she takes some stuff from the home and loaded into her car; dishes, sewing kit, old bills and documents … During all the craziness, I managed to remove all the stuff from her car without her knowing. When she got back to her apartment, she finally realized that I removed all the stuff from her car. She call back and start BIT_Hing but I just hang up on her again. It’s funny that she wasted all night at my house arguing and bit_hing without accomplishing anything. I just want her to leave me and the kids along.

I would resend your plan B letter stating two things:

1) You still want to save your M (so any D would be drawn out and contested).

2) You will not talk to her again as long as long as she does not agree to the conditions of your plan B letter.

Put your mother on the lookout for your WW every time she answers the door. She's furious right now that your plan B is getting to her. Let her continue to stew. She still thinks she can manipulate you. Continue a dark plan B, and she will realize that her days of manipulating you are over.

Sounds like your exposure WORKED, to the extent that the gym manager OBVIOUSLY at least relayed your call to the trainer, and then the trainer called your WW, etc. and so on.

Let her 'drown in her venom', as you so poetically put it...

I'm with Jim, resend the PBL...

I'm going to stay in my Dark Plan B without sending PBL. The next time she try to communicate, that's when I resend the PBL.

Latest, ugly scene at the gym where the OP works as personal trainer:

Yesterday afternoon my wife comes over the house again, telling my mother that she wants to bring snow boots over for the kids (no snow around here). My mother let her in because my DD asked her to and my mother didn’t want to offend WW. She then convince my mother to give her the items I took back a few days ago which my mother did so hoping for appeasement. When I got home, nobody in the house would tell me what has happen. After dinner, I took my mother home since I have the rest of the week off. As I was leaving my mother’s house, I found out from my mother that she comes over and again remove items that I took back a few days ago.

I was furious to say the least; I took the kids with me and headed toward the gym where I know WW is attending OP’s gym class. I went to the room where the class was in session and ask the OP out loud why he is messing with my wife and does he know that we have two young children. To say I make a scene is an understatement. My WW and the OP were totally embarrassed; there must be 25 people in his class and another 30 in the gym. WW pushed me toward the door but all the people at the gym heard us. I took the kids and left.

About 30 minutes after I got home, a police officer called my home and gave me a warning that I should never set foot in the gym again. He also warned me not to contact the OP or my WW again because the whole thing is in an incident report. I told him that’s not a problem and I left it alone. Not the smartest thing for me but this need to be done since I have not exposed to people that affects the OP.

I resend the PBL again asking WW to leave me, my mother and the kids alone. Back to Dark Plan B.

Whoa!!! OK, now mike, pleeeease stay dark. Even in a time of rage over your WW doing something, take the time to cool waaaaay down (unless she's trying to 'kidnap' your children). You don't want to look like you are harrassing these two, as it will not bode well in terms of separation and divorce, and CUSTODY. I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same thing, but NO MORE, k!

She got the response she was looking for, and now she will think that she will be able to get you into further trouble by inciting your rage. DO NOT let this happen.

I'm so sorry that you had to deal with this latest incident. KNOW that you have the power to change things. Don't show this anger to your WW again. She wins this one...

A quiet offensive is part of war strategy. Stealth. Give yourself a month to settle in...Be still...

Tell your dear mother never to answer the door again when your WW comes over.

silent, you're right, no more outrage actions again. Stealth and dark Plan B for me for a while.

Jim, mom is too soft not to answer the door but I think WW knows my boundary from my latest action.

Thanks all,

Be calm. Showing your anger makes you look like the crazy one. Normal people (those who don't understand how infidelity works) get a little weirded out by the whole exposure thing to begin with.

Plus, expect that she will pick fights with you and be ready for it. The more things she has that she can hold against you, as crazy as they are, the easier it is for her to justify what she's doing.

Don't give her any more ammo.

sd,

She'll not getting any more ammo from me. You are right about the exposure thing, it was something that needs to be done and I'll lay low for a while.

Stay strong,

Tx,

Update:

The exposure at the gym a couple of weeks ago must have done some good because WW is no longer going there. She and her workout GF are going to another location because it was humiliating for the OP and WW to appear together there. The 50+ people there just can’t get the night of exposure out of their mind; oops I didn’t mean to hurt them, it just happen, it was the heat of the moment, etc... The fantasyland has been shook and shattered.

Although I didn’t want my kids to be there because I couldn’t get someone to sit for me, it added additional dimensions to the mix because it was the first time OP sees me and the kids together. I was told that our appearance devastated both WW and OM because it was the first time they see the destructions they caused because of their A.

This past weekend, WW tried to reach out to me via our intimidator because I’m in Dark Plan B. WW told our intimidator that she misses her family life, vacations etc… She also asked intimidator to ask me if I’m willing to wait for her to get over the OP so she could come back and fully committed to the marriage. Now, why would she need my confirmation if I would wait for her? Either she wants to come back or she doesn’t; whatever I said should not matter on her decision. To me this is the same lip service that I heard a couple of weeks ago and I’m assuming the affair continues. She just wants me to be her backup plan in case her relationship doesn’t work out, very much a cake eater talking.

Since she didn’t give specific time for this wait or her status with OP, I told our intimidator that I’m going to continue to work on myself and heal to the point that I’m ready for a divorce. I’ll not wait forever. As I told her before, I’m looking for actions not words from WW. The only way I would even talk to her about us is when she could show me that her relationship with the OP is over forever.

As far as I know, the OP continues to teach at the old gym; oh well you win some, you lose some.

These are VERY good developments. Continue to stay completely dark, and give her more time to stew it over. It sounds like plan B is working. If she attempts to make contact, just resend your Plan B letter with your conditions and if she agrees to it, I would have her call SH.

Excellent!

Your Plan B is working and she is missing the EN's you were providing which OM will never be able to meet.

Stay dark, let her crash and then you might be ready to rebuild your M.

You are doing well!

Do not suggest that you will not be waiting forever. Just say that you are not waiting.

Even though we know otherwise...for now.

Jim,

My call in these matters is...dont respond! Dont say either way. Have you intermediaries just forward her another copy of the PBL.

Dont respond! dont say you are gone...dont say you will wait. Dont say ANYTHING!!!

I did that...and got a surprise phonecall one day asking if I was dating. I told my wife that I wasnt having that conversation and I got off the phone.

Let her think whatever might be going on with you. You see, since she is in adultery...your silence will make her assume you have found someone also.

WSs always assume we are like them...and are surprised later on that we didnt run out and hook up also.

She has the PBL. She knows what it will take. THAT IS HER ANSWER! She neither deserves nor gets any other!

Jim, HTW, UVA and Mortarman,

Thanks for the support.

I’m in DARK, DARK Plan B so no responds from me. I told my intimidator from now on when WW wants to discuss our R/M is to tell her to read/re-read the PBL. It’s all there.

I truly agreed that silence is my friend and it’s going to help kill her A. This is the second time within three weeks she reaches out and asked me to wait for her. Yep, I’m not waiting.

Update:

It's been quiet here since the night of the gym class encounter; I have been in a DARK, DARK Plan B ever since and it appears WW is giving me my space to heal. V-Day sucks and uneventful; I wished I have the kids this week. Today is my B-day so I thought I drop by here to say hello and let you know that I’m doing OK. Happy Birthday to me; I know It's pathetic but hey, it’s my day.

Have a good day all.

Glad to hear that Plan B is helping you heal and HAPPY BIRTHDAY to YOU!

Some hope BUT…

It didn’t stay quiet for long after three weeks of peace, DD9 has a fever Sunday morning, the day of our regular exchange; since I’m in Dark Plan B, I told DD to tell WW that she’s sick and make sure she has medication for her at the apartment. Unfortunately DD was feeling better during the day and never told her mother. When WW come to pick up the kids, that’s when DD told her she’s not feeling well. WW asked my DD to call me for money to get the medication since she didn’t have her wallet with her. I told DD that I can’t help and mommy needs to figure and solve her own problems.

The next morning, WW called me that DD still has a fever and I was a jerk for not given her the money. She also wants me to take off from work to watch DD because she needs to be at work. I told WW that she needs to take off or find ways to resolve her problems. I would do it if we were a real family and can’t help with our present situation. She took DD to my FIL’s business since he’s self employ and has a back office where DD could rest.

The following morning, DD called and told me that she’s not going to school again. I know she wants me take her but I just ignore even bringing it up. Don’t think that I’m heartless; all the refusals above break my heart but I know I need to stay Dark Plan B and not support WW.

Finally, late last night WW called and she wants to talk about getting back together (I broke Plan B). She told me that she found that she still loves me and knows it’s the right thing to do for all involved. It’s also the OP’s wishes that she works her way back to the marriage since both of them are having problem with the guilt of breaking our M and family apart. She said although they still love one another, they both feel that they would not have a future together with this hanging over them. WW told me that they fight constantly on this as well as OP’s problems and issues; she wouldn’t tell me what his problems were. She found that the longer she’s with him the more she misses me and misses being in a family. She said she still has not had sexual contact (penetrations) with OP; not that she doesn’t wants to but mostly the OP feels if they do it, he could not live with himself. Hard to believe but I do believe this is true.

I asked her is the OP still in the picture and WW said “No, he’s not in the picture” and she told me that she quit the gym as well. This all sounds great and is something I long to hear. What’s troubling me is that after further conversation, she told me since she has to give the gym 60 days notice, her membership doesn’t end until middle of April and she’s going to be train by the OP until then. OP offers to train her for free until then and they will go to N/C with one another. At that point we’ll slowly work our way back with one another. She said the more she sees him the more she wants to be back with me so I shouldn’t worry about the situation. WTF, RED FLAG!!! I told her that I have trouble with that and will not engage with any R talk or help her until N/C is establish; I also told her that I’ll continue my on going healing process (Dark Plan B). Some lifting of fog but still troubling thoughts. Please comment.

Mike,

I was wondering. What kind of icing would she like on her cake? I can believe she is missing your support. I can believe she might even be seeing what she is doing to her children. But, I can't believe that he working out with OM is a good idea, or that although she LOVES OM, she wants you more. Finally, forgive me for being a sexist old male.

But, why would you have an affair with a physical trainer, if it wasn't physical? Sorry does not compute. My BS detector is going off.

Frankly, I think you stick with plan B, and when you are ready you seriously consider divorce. Frankly, I don't know the state you live in, and certainly not its laws, but I would be considering legal separation such that you can keep her out of the house if necessary, and to protect you financially so that you can take care of the kids when she falls flat on her face.

This is just testing the waters to see if she can have it both ways.

Here is something interesting for you to consider. IF and I mean IF she has not been intimate with him, then the sole reason for her destroying the family was to be near him right? Well, wouldn't her training with him give her ALL that she has been getting so far? Yup, you bet it would.

I don't see a win in this for you, under the conditions stated. Please consult a lawyer and protect yourself and have the legal means to keep her out of the house. This can and very well might turn nasty again, when she does NOT get her way.

I just find it amazing that she thinks so highly of herself, that she feels that you will just wait for her to continue her affair, and then everything will be just great. I wonder if that will be her approach on the next affair?

Sorry for sounding so negative, but I have a hard time with "cake eaters" especially with those that have no problem rubbing their spouses AND their children's noses in it. And by it, I mean **IT.

I don't know if this helps, I hope at least it gives you something to think about.

God Bless,

JL

Yea, What JL said!!!!

Seriously, I would send her another copy of your plan B letter and stay darker than ever. You will know if she is serious. It should look like her beating your door down to get back in, not some trumped up means of cake eating.

I can agree with resending plan B letter...you might add a little more 'meat' to it so that she clearly understands that you ARE willing to reconcile (if you still are)...BUT, you're only willint to reconcile IF SHE MEETS YOUR PLAN B LETTER REQUIREMENTS.

If you do want her back...tell her in your 'updated' plan B letter that you do want her back, but you're NOT going to take her back if she cannot completely, 100% meet your requirements for this. That means no OM...EVER, in ANY fashion. And that has to start BEFORE you begin trying to reconcile.

Personally, it sounds like your plan B is working...you can consider giving things a shot... as long as she meets those requirements. Do NOT negotiate on this...be loving and honest with her...and be FIRM about what you expect before you'll consider letting her back in your life.

Above all...take your time with this. Do NOT rush it.

JL and hope,

I totally agree with both of you and your posts confirm my assumption of her cake eating habits. Thank you. I do believe her when she said they didn’t do the ultimate sin, I’m not saying they didn’t get intimate or physical but just not intercourse.

Lawyer consulted and finances protected as well as changing all the locks to the house. As to the LSA or legal means to keep her out of the house; in my state (NJ), they piss on men in court and it serve me no justice to get LSA or anything thru the court since she’s not asking or receiving CS or alimony from me at this time.

I’m staying in my Dark Plan B and look for actions and not lip service. I will not spend one ounce of my energy on supporting her EN until PBL requirements are met.

Owl, All were said already and I told her to re-read the PBL so I’m not going to send it again. She knows what I need and she needs to make that decision. I still love her and want to make it work but only PBL are met.

I have a bridge full of gold I would like to sell you.

Mike, I can’t believe you believe this. I am not worried about your WW, her actions are very predictable. I am worried about you. If your WW can pull something like this and have you believe her, you still have a long way to go. You are deep in your own fog even though you are in Plan B. Mike, you need to wake up and accept reality. Your WW and OM have been engaging in SF for awhile now. It just makes no sense to believe otherwise. I am afraid she is playing you for a fool, and regrettably you seem ready to go along with it.

Your WW is not yet ready to be a W. She just wants to eat some more cake. But she is not really my concern here. Mike, I just hope you wake up from your own fog soon.

UVA, this is the only thing that she swears the kids on; she would not swear on the kids on anything else. They did everything under the rainbow and I’m not going into the gory details so committing the ultimate sin or not would not make one bit of different to me. Whether penetration happens or not it’s still SEX. I appreciate your concerns about me but my actions will be the same regardless what actually happen. Dark Plan B continues and when I’m ready and if I don’t see any actions from her on recommitting to our M, I’ll Plan Dv.

Actually, I was kind of disappointed that she has not committee the ultimate sin because even if we do get back together, this may be something that will have her wonder, what if. I do want her to experience that grass is not greener on the other side. Maybe I’m just a sick puppy, but that’s how I wired.

After thinking it over last night, I’ll send her an updated PBL as suggested.

Thanks all.

Mike, stop kidding yourself. You have separated twice...you're in plan B....and you don't believe she has committed the act of having sex? That is because you do NOT WANT TO BELIEVEthat she is capable...of doing that yet "swearing on her children"? What rational parent "swears on the life of their children" regarding anything?? However, this is part of you accepting reality. There have been 100's of BS's on here whose spouses have done many things unimaginable, unlike them, and that's why we call them ALIEN!!!

However, you do require a 2x4 to keep you dark. You fell into the typical trap...she threw you a meal and it really wasn't a crumb...... stick to your boundaries reminding her there is nothing to talk about...NOTHING.....

Best of luck....

Mike

She did sleep with him, she didn't sleep with him! At this point and knowing they have been intimate (just now sure "how" intimate, but intimate enough that it's sickening to you), all that matters is keeping it simple.

Simple looks like this....Plan B UNTIL such time as Plan B boundaries are met. This isn't complicated and I know that you know this. Now do it!

People will swear on anything when it’s convenient to do so. I am afraid you are a little naïve on this point.

Let’s take a closer look at the facts. Here are some of the “reasons” for believing SF has not occurred.

1. Your WW tells you so. (We both know WSs are notorious liars!)

2. Your WW swears that she has not done this. (We both know WSs are notorious liars!)

3. You (desperately deep down inside) want to believe otherwise. Our hope and wish are not evidence of anything, but only reflect our mental and emotional states at the time.

I don’t know if I miss any other “reason”, but this is what I can glean from what you posted.

Here are some reasons to believe that SF has occurred.

1. A woman rarely leaves her husband when an A is the caused without it being a PA. Very rarely!

2. If the A was only EA at the time that she left her husband, it will soon turn into a PA once she separates from her husband. This always happens. Read this board or other infidelity board. (But maybe you think that your situation is different; it’s not!)

3. Your WW and OM, just like you, are humans. They get horny and they are “in love”. Why would they not consummate the SF? Because of OM’s goodwill? Come on, if you are relying on OM’s goodwill towards you, you have something else coming.

4. Why would your WW give up so much if she did not intend to go all the way?

5. OM is a physical instructor, and thus I assume has high testosterone. You really believe he will refrain from PA?

I could go on, but let’s leave it here for now. Why am I so concerned about this? Not because of the SF itself, as it makes little difference to what you are doing. I am concerned with your chances of having a successful relationship in the future, whether it’s with your WW (if she becomes your W again) or with someone else. Here is the point: if you do not become less gullible, women will run roughshod over you in your next relationship(s). Women do not respect men they can walk over, and if you are willing to believe all kind of nonsense a woman may spew on you, you subject yourself to being walked on. And when they walk on you, they will blame you for easily believing their lies.

A married friend of my wife, a woman, was recently involved in an A. As per course she blamed her husband for everything, including the fact that he was so gullible and naïve not to have known that she has been cheating on him. On this last point, I have to agree with her. His wanting to believe her despite evidence to the contrary, of course, does not excuse her action, but the fact remains that it contributes to her lack of respect for him and her running roughshod over him. It is this that I don’t want to happen to you in your future relationship(s).

When you are ready for relationship, study the dynamics of relationship. Among other things, learn not to be too trusting of others merely because they say so or because they “swear” on it. Remember, actions speak louder than words and concrete evidence is more reliable than a person’s claims.

For a relationship to work, a woman must respect her man. It is hard for her to do so if she finds him gullible.

My $0.02 cents.

Your Plan B is going well otherwise.

All,

I know 2X4s were coming with my last post. Swear on the kids is my asking because that is the only way I could get the truth out of her. She would not swear on the kids on anything else when I asked her to.

Like hopeandpray is saying, she did/didn’t is the same; it sicken me and my actions are the same; I treat her as if she’s having a sexual relationship. I’m Dark as can be and my boundaries are up.

Following is my additions to my PBL, please comment:

2/28/2007

Hon,

I’m sorry if I misinterpret your meaning of “He’s out of the picture.” the other night but I cannot and will not be involved with you on any matters until he’s totally out of the picture. This means permanently separated from us and no contact for life. You know as well as I do that we cannot build our New marriage if he is involve and it hurts me tremendously to watch from the sideline. I did not sign up for this roller coaster ride and I’m asking you to keep me out of it until you’re ready to commit to our New marriage and family. When you’re ready and if I still have the same feelings for you as I have today, I will be there to meet your every needs and build the New marriage better than before.

Please respect my request on this as my earlier letter.

Mike

Mike:

My wife swore on a bible that she had not had sex with the OM. On a Bible! Now I got the bible out because I wanted to try and find out more information than I already knew. One of the things I knew is that my wife said she would never lie with her hand on a bible. One the other hand I already knew that she did have sex with the OM and I had proof.

So she lied to me with her hand on the bible. About a week later when things were coming to a head I asked her about lying with her hand on the bible and she said she would never lie with her hand on it. I filed for divorce and had her served. She came to me and I told her I had filed for Divorce so she would not have to lie with her hand on a bible anymore. She then found out I had pictures of him at my house and even a video of them together in my own bed.

When she saw that of course she could no longer deny it. My point is when a person is trying to hide an affair you can tell when they are lying, because their lips move. Women do not move out have another boyfriend on the side and then have morality to not sleep with the other person.

I am sure my XW cannot believe what she did but she did it. She never and I mean never told the truth about anything regarding her affair and especially when it concerned the sex.

No need for a new Plan B letter. Your WW knows what she needs to do. She is just pulling your leg as all WSs do. At most, resend the original PBL with no further comment added.

UVA, I resent PBL with a short addition letter.

It was another bad day during kid exchange:

As usual, I stay in the family room when WW arrived to drop off the kids (D9/S7) for the week but after she dropped off the kids belongings the kids didn’t come inside. I waited about 5-10 minutes before I went to the front door; that’s where I heard the kids crying in the driveway asking her not to go. I told her to bring the kids inside because the kids haven’t been feeling well and its cold outside (I know I broke Plan B). She ended up staying for about an hour to claim them down and the kids cried the entire time. They want her home and us a family again, etc... I stay in the family room almost the entire time because I don’t want to be the person that pulls the kids from their mother; I want her to leave the kids by herself. This is the first time the kids cried about our separation and it was gut wrenching.

After WW left, the kids claimed down a bit and I went to pickup my mother; she stays over and baby sit for me while I’m at work. The kids both fell asleep when we got home around 8:30pm and I put them to bed. They were tried and not feeling good from their cold to begin with. Poor kids!!

I hope WW sees what she's putting her kids thru but I thinks its status quo for her so our saga continue. WW still says that she’s coming back to the marriage after she slowly leaves the OP; they tried cold turkey before and that didn’t work (WW fog talking again).

Life sucks but Dark Plan B continues!!

Need advice:

I’m about to take a much needed one week vacation using my family’s two week Vacation Club. I also found out my WW has booked the balance week for my in-law without telling me. She’s not using it for herself or the kids and she don’t have the time to use it, so she figure that she just give it away to her folks instead. I just paid the maintenance charge for the Vacation Club and I believe my in-law is most likely financing and enabling her because she haven’t talk about needing money lately.

After I come back from my vacation, I’m going to cancel the in-law’s vacation and book an additional vacation for myself. I don’t really want to hurt my in-law but I’ll not enable her in anyway. What would you do if you’re put into similar situation?

This is within your control and the WS booked something without your knowledge? Hm....

If you need to take that extra week take it but know that maybe the in-laws were taking to take your children? Or maybe they needed a break from the WS?

Might be worth letting them have the vacation for the week after you let them know you just booked it for yourself and then found out the WS had booked it for them. Talk to them about it and see their true feelings and reaons for the vacation.

Depending on how you play this out, you could turn this around to your advantage even if it means giving them a free week.

JMHO,
L.

My kids have school so they're not taking them. They found cheap air and the hotel is free (on the BS). My WW wants to get on their good side by giving them a vacation on my expense.

Advice anyone?

Latest:

Just came back from a one week vacation and back into the thick of my WS’s A. It was relaxing but I just missed having my family around especially the kids. A few days after I came home, I booked a one week vacation in the summer for the entire family; me, kids & WS. I know if WS doesn’t go, it just goes to waste but that’s what I did. According to our intimidator, she seems to be surprised that I bought a ticket for her without asking and she is excited about the trip (we took the same trip a couple years ago and she loved it). She said that she will go since she will be working to come back to our marriage on the first of May. My kids’ passport will expired before our travel day and the length of time it takes to get them so we met up at our county office to apply for them.

Afterward, I asked her about May and her plans. She said that she’ll be back on the first of May but she need to resolve her issues with the OP during these three weeks. I told her I don’t understand why it would takes three weeks if she already decided that she’ll be back but she could only tell me it is very hard for her and she needed the times to prepare herself mentally. I told her, my assumption is that she still in her A and I assumed that she’ll not be back until I see actions indicate otherwise.

I then asked about her booking my in-law with our vacation club without my consent. I told her that she needs to find her folks another accommodation since I can’t support her during her A. She said it only three more weeks before she comes back but I told her it’s the consequence of her prolonging her A. I told her if she cuts the A short then I wouldn’t have a problem with the club, if not, she needs to explain to her folks why they can’t use the vacation club. She was mad as can be and sped away.

After midnight, WS called and said she broke it off with the OP because she can’t bear to tell her folks why the hotel was cancelled. We talked for about 2 hours but she was pissed and resentful because I was forcing her into cutting it short. At the end she said that she will cancel her folk’s vacation club arrangement because she can’t cut her A short. Truthfully, I don’t have high hopes that she’ll be back into our marriage willingly on May 1st with her latest demeanor.

Any thoughts?

A few thoughts since you asked....

Lousy plan B.
Plan B does not involve vacations together.
Plan B does not involve meeting at the county office.
Plan B does not involve asking her about her plans after May.
Plan B does not include 2 hour phone conversations.
Plan B does not include threats of exposure to parents. (plan A does include ACTUAL exposure....)

So basically, your wife has you on hold until May -- and you're going along with it.

Nice deal for her. Don't expect it to change.

Why are you talking to your WW when she hasn't agreed to your PBL conditions? You are at high risk for a false recovery when she comes back because she knows that she can still manipulate you into breaking the conditions of your PBL as long as she gives you some crumbs. If she doesn't agree to all the conditions of your PBL, you do not talk to her, and she does not come home. Otherwise, when you've been back together for two months and things ain't peachy, guess who she's start up with again?

I got the ticket for her because its small sum to pay and the hotel is the same regardless she goes or not. I would not let her go if she still in her A, I just trash the ticket. I talked to her because she said she broke it off with the OP or else I would have hung up on her. I met up with her because I need her to file for the kid's passports together; both parents need to be there in person with the kids, it takes about 2-3 months to get them in.

I'll not let her come home until I'm sure she's no longer in her A and demonstrate she’s could be trusted with our family and marriage. I know I was not at my best Plan B with some of the other stuff.

I would just go back to being dark and resend the plan B letter. If she comes back on May 1st, then she has to agree to the conditions. If not, then you stay dark. You've come this far. Don't waste a perfectly good plan B by getting a little too eager.

Say what?

I think you totally undermined your Plan B and need to deal with that somehow before you can go back to it. Negotiating over when she's going to stop the affair--not plan B. I would tell her that if she wants to continue the affair, you're going to cancel her ticket and resume your communication blackout. Maybe preface it with something like "I reached out to you because I thought you might be having some second thoughts, but I see that things have not changed."

There, I edited it to read what she really meant.

I agreed with you all about cake eating even if it hurts others, but at this time there is nothing I could do about it other then goes back to dark Plan B. I do need a lot of help when she does come back the next time she said that the A is over. How should I handle it so I’m not in this predicament again or falls into false recovery? My PBL’s conditions are that she needs to be no longer in the A and establishes no contact with the other person then we could discuss our marriage and relationship.

During our conversation last weekend, when she said she broke it off with the OP and she asked me what now? I was lost since I really don’t have a plan for recovery. Please help this lost soul and point me into the right direction.

You might want to have a session with the Harleys at this point. No contact letter, establish extraordinary precautions to prevent any contact, begin spending 15 hours per week together.

That's where it begins. It sounds like she's not ready for it, though.

Ok -- which is it?

A) WS called and said she broke it off with the OP

or

B) she said that she will cancel her folk’s vacation club arrangement because she can’t cut her A short.

So she broke it off, but she can't cut it short???????
My opinion is that she was handing you another load of crap to keep you strung along awhile longer.

Mike, why can't you go 100% dark and let it work?
And why are you worried about recovery when your WW hasn't even ended her affair???

Lexxxy.

Right now she's in B) and I'm 100% dark. I'm only anticipating when she call the next time (May 1st??) telling me that her A is over and will establish N/C with the OP, what should I do and said then. Like sdguy is saying, I don't believe she's ready for recovery.

Mike,

Right now I would just take solace in the fact that your plan B IS working (as long as you stick with it), and that your marriage will be saved as long as you are still interested when she finally agrees to the conditions of your plan B letter. I don't care what stage of the process you are in, it always takes longer than we think or would like it to. Although I do not believe that she'll be back on May 1st, I do believe that at some point during the summer she will finally cave in. She is showing all the signs. Keep up the good work of plan B. You will be paid back tenfold in a few years when you are all a happy family again. You are doing God's work fighting for your family through all of this. Just remember the story of Job. God let the devil take Job's entire family, his wealth, and his health, but Job still refused to curse God. God eventually paid back Job tenfold, and he started a new family and was even richer. This is your test. So far you have passed with flying colors.

Jim,

Thanks for the encouragement and I agreed totally about WS; she may or may not be back on May 1st but I do want to be prepared and have a plan ready whenever she comes back. So back to my question, what do I said and do when she comes and said that her A with the OP is over? I don’t want to be in the same boat as last weekend where she’s tested the water and went back to her old way but I don’t want to push her away without given her a chance either. Should there be boundaries or conditions for her to fulfill before I should even engage in conversation with her? What should they be?

Like I said earlier, my PBL only states that we could discuss our futures together once she permanently separate from the OP.

Thanks,

Move back in

NC with OP for life

NC letter

O&H and accounting for time

MC

That would be the minimum. You should have put more in your NC letter. I would have her call JC or SH first before you agree to break your plan B, so you don't run into this situation again.

Latest:

Well, WW called me last night on May 1st as promised from 2 months ago to let me know that she say her ‘Last good bye’ to the OP an the last day of April; she is now ready to make it right for the kids (and for herself) and work on our marriage. She told me she took initiative and cancelled her apartment lease; she needs to move out of her apartment by the end of May. She wants to come home during May to make our marriage work.

Even though she’s going to work on our marriage, she said she cannot forgive me for cancelling her Dad’s vacation plan and showing up at the gym with the kids and makes a big scene. She said that her Dad is really upset with me for what I did and will never accept anything from me even if we’re together again. I told her that if my family could forgive her for what she put them through than her Dad should be big enough of a person to forgive me; I told her I’ll make it up to him in the future.

She said that she does not want to be at any of my family and friend’s functions and does not want me to be at hers. She said it is awkward for all parties involved. I told her I have no ill will against any of her friends or family members; I told her I understand why she would feel awkward around my side of the friends or family but why would her sides feel uncomfortable around me if they did nothing wrong or done anything against me. For whatever reason, she hates my family and would make any excuse to disassociate from them. This is very troubling for me because I want both of us to love or get along with both side of our family and friends.

Please help, I need to interpret this round of talks and my next course of actions.

She may not be in her affair anymore but by golly she is still wayward in mind and thought. Demands, demands, demands, piss on her demands. She should be crawling back on bended and bloodied knees not making demands.

You need to call the Harley's and get a plan together including what the expectations are for her return including no contact ever with OP, a no contact letter, complete transparency (cell phone passwords, email passwords, etc). If she will not do these things then I think she is still wayward and I would be seriously concerned about her motives for returning (money, custody, legal, etc).

In my opinion, a WS needs to be willing to do whatever YOU require to recover the marriage -- not the other way around.

She doesn't get to dictate the terms of her return, you do.

She meets YOUR requirements -- or she doesn't come home.
By now you should realize you may be better off without her. Probably your home life is more stable and calm with her gone.

I think it will take a lot longer than one month for her to prove herself - and I personally would not let my spouse come back with the attitude she has.....

Amen Lexxy!!

I need help. The following is a list of commitments I sent to WW when she first wanted to move back to our home:

1. No Contact with the other person for life. You need to tell me immediately if any contact were made even if you bump into each other in the street.

2. Agree to do whatever it takes to save our marriage but not hurting each other or those that love and care about us.

3. Read and discuss both books; How to survive an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs.

4. Going to Marriage Counseling.

5. Communications - Spend 15 hours a week with one another without kids.

6. Open and Honest relationship with transparency – Give each other all email user Id & passwords (home & office), cell phone bills and voice mail password. Let each other know what they are doing while away from each other (accounting for time). No secret or lies from each other.

7. Recreations – We must do recreational activities together. We can’t tell each others we need our own space anymore.

8. Friends & Family – I understand that we may need to isolate from them while we work and fix our issues, but I need to repair these relationships in the future.


Here is my latest since May 1st:

a. She still living in her apartment and stay at our house 1-2 nights a week on the weekend. She sleeps in the kid’s room while she’s here and go to bed when the kids go to bed so we haven’t really talked or communicated. I have asked her to stay in our room so we could spent some times together (of course I told her I don’t’ expect anything else other than talk from her by staying in our room) but she refused and said she can’t do it right now as she put it.

b. WW said that she’s trying to work back into our marriage because of the kids.

c. She said that even if the OP’s not in the picture, she just doesn’t think she could ever love me again. She is willing to be here at home and be my wife by name but live separate lives; just for the kids.

d. No contact is in place (as far as I know) between WW and OP. I need to snoop some more to confirm. WW and I are going to MC once every two weeks.

e. Other than some works toward commitments items 1 & 4 from above, I don’t see any other efforts towards the commitments from her.

f. She has no regret of her A; if not for the kids she wouldn’t be here.

g. She’s making up to me by coming back into this marriage. When we have a heated discussion, she says that I’m lucky she even be back into this marriage.

h. I know she needs my help in child care once the school year ends. One of the main reasons why I think she’s back right now, the other may be financial supports. Right now, I'm not in Plan B and are helping her with child care and provide her some finanical supports.

She’s obvious still in her fog but I need recommendations of what to do next. Since she’s in NC and willing to go to MC, should I be in Plan A or Plan B. I like to have her living back in our home full time while I work Plan A on her; she needs to keep the apartment on the side until she could demonstrated that she’s clearly out of her foggy world. Please help.

I'm a bit confused - if you're not in Plan B (and it certainly sounds like you're not), why include it in your signature?



Plan B will insulate you from comments like that. It will insulate you from the nastiness that makes up a WS's character.

Sorry, I just updated my signature that my status is ??? and I'm confused in what to do next. I believe my best course of actions right now to save our marriage is to Plan A but like to hear from some of the experts whether this is the right move or not.

Mike -

It all depends on whether or not there is contact. I would triple my efforts toward determining the answer to that. If there is no contact, she is in withdrawal, and things will get better. If there is contact, not even MC will help.

Stand up to her.

Why are you so willing to take crumbs?

I would have to agree with Lexxxy...she's got this all wrong of course and still sounds wayward to me.

My WW said the same thing when she was in the midst of her A.

I'm just not sure if these are symptoms of withdrawal or contact with OM. Keep snoopoing and watch her actions as they rarely lie.

You sabotaged your plan B by allowing her back into your life without her agreeing to your PBL conditions. That being said, you are kind of stuck in plan A now until she screws something up again and gives you a reason to go back to plan B. You've obviously read through my thread. You need to snoop, snoop, and snoop some more to make sure there is NC with OM or a new OM. Right now I would shy away from all R/M talk and just focus on creating quality memories between the two of you. Rack your brain to think of things to do that she would enjoy. Come up with an idea, and invite her. If she won't go, fine you go without her. Eventually she'll start taking you up on your offers. My W told me all the same crap when her A ended, but you know it took me a LONG time before anything good happened. Just be persistant and protect your M from all OM.

Oh, and the next time she tells you she tells you she's only here for the kids, tell her calmly to get out because you are not going to be blatantly disrespected like that again. Trust me, the look on her face will be one of bewilderment, and I bet she won't say it again.

c. She said that even if the OP’s not in the picture, she just doesn’t think she could ever love me again. She is willing to be here at home and be my wife by name but live separate lives; just for the kids.

Boy have I heard that one, many times in the past.

You ask what to do to help. If there is NC then here is what you can do to help. Fill up her time with you and the kids. My FWW told me the same as your is. I planned trips. Sometimes they were large camping trips sometimes small day things like to the nearest lake, park, waterpark, zoo, movie and a pizza. Do something the kids would like to do or see. A concert with your wife, jazz, summer festival. You don't always have to spend lots of $$$, but just fill up time. One thing the OM doesn't have on you and that is....you two have kids together. Leverage that to the hilt. I became the "Master Planner" with my family. I would check the newspaper local and regional ones to see what was going on nearby.

- plan time with her as a family
- plan time with her alone.

IF - IF she won't go with you are the family then you go ahead with your plans. She will wonder what she is missing.

BECOME THE MAN SHE WANTS!!!!


This was what I did when my wife told me that she didn't want her OM or me. She didn't want anyone. She was lost and I had to help her back to our M. Today my wife is in love with me and HATES the things she said while in the fog and the way she acted.

I agree with Lexxy. You gave up your Plan B for this?

jmwc95,



I pray every night that more BS's reacted that way. BRAVO!!!!

Guys,

Ok no more 2X4’s, my PBL condition was for her to have no contact with the other person for life then we could discuss our future together. Once she established N/C, then I sent her the list of commitments above which she needs to demonstrate that they’re in compliance before she could move back home Permanently. She’s allows to be home for visits or stay overnight but she will keep her apartment. I help her with child care and some finances for the kids but the apartment and her own expenses are all hers. I know this is not the best situation but that’s what transpired.

Believe me, I don’t take crumbs from her but I like to support her through her withdrawal if that is where she’s at right now but I will not be hesitate to kick her out and go back to Plan B otherwise. This weekend, I’ll step up my snooping efforts.

After four months without WW, I could truly say that I don’t need her in my life hence I told her she needs to keep her apartment because I’ll kick her a$$ out if she disrespect me.

Plan A and upping snooping are what I think is best for me right now.

Well alright that's the attitude.....I hope it doesn't come to this and your marriage is reconciled but you need that attitude right now as she appears she may still be wayward.

Update:

WW has been back in the house full time since June 1st but her contact with the OP never stopped. Most the contacts are phone contact from work about lingering feelings as the OP is giving her supports to work out our marriage. I know even this type of contacts would not help our marriage as long as he’s in the picture. I finally confronted her this weekend, I told her that one of the conditions is to N/C for life and I will not tolerate it if she wants to live in our house. If she can’t do it then she would needs to leave the house. I also told her that I’m not interested in having her as my roommate. She then says she can’t do ‘for life’ and she would not leave the house because it’s in her name too. I went to her walk-in closet and start throwing her cloths out; it was really ugly. I told her the next time I found out she makes contact; the cloths will be out in the drive way with the doors locked.

I guess I’m in Plan A with boundary but should I throw her cloths out in the driveway if contact continues? What else should I be doing other than a good Plan A.

We have an appointment with MC tomorrow and she said that she will not go; I could force her to go by threaten to throw her out of the house, but I have reservation with this as well. BTW, one of the conditions for her to come back is to go to MC together.

Please comment.

Ouch...

Well, I know you're not going to like this, but this is why you needed to enforce those boundaries BEFORE letting her back. That's why we tell people that are in plan B to ignore what a WS SAYS...that before they allow the WS back into their lives the WS has to demonstrate their willingness to meet those boundaries by what they DO.

My guess is that you would resume plan A. Continue to expose to family/friends/etc... that she remains in contact with OM AGAINST YOUR AGREEMANT for letting her back into your house. Let them put pressure on her to end contact. You can also resume the 'carrot' of plan A again too. But here's the problem...you're plan A is now undermined by your allowing her back without having the boundaries enforced. It's going to be far, far harder to keep plan A from turning into plan 'doormat' this time. Because she walked all over your boundaries already, she's not going to see any reason to respect them now.

I SERIOUSLY recommend you work this out with a professional MC. Given your situation and description of your WW's current attitude and behavior, I don't think you're going to get the help you need just from the forums. Honestly, I think you're in more precarious shape now than you were before she came back. You're going to need some serious guidance to help you, friend.

To clarify what I meant about enforcing boundaries BEFORE the WS comes back means:

Have the WS setup counseling, not the BS. The WS must attend at least one session jointly with the BS before the WS is allowed to move back in.

NC- The WS must send an NC letter, pre-approved by the BS, to the OP...and that letter must be copied to the BS so that there is PROOF that the request for NC has occurred. Again, this should happen BEFORE the WS moves back in.

Openness and honesty- the WS must explain all avenues of how the A was conducted, and help the BS to SEE those aspects of the WS's life to allow them to now see that the WS is being honest and maintaining NC with the OP. Again, BEFORE they're allowed to move back in.

Get the idea? Because this wasn't followed, you've lost your 'trump' of letting the WS back into your house and life. She's now back to fence-sitting/cake-eating...she's got the benifit of being married and still maintaining contact with OM...she's not 'suffering' anything to maintaining that contact.

Tell her that she needs to send a NC letter to OM stating NC for life.

If she refuses...

Re-expose that she is contacting OM and blatantly not living up to your conditions for letting her back in the house. Expose to her parents, family, friends, OM's parents and family, etc.

Set up a meeting with her boss and HR to inform them that your WW is using her work phone and email to facilitate her affair and you expect them to do something about it.

If she continues, force her out of the house and go back to plan B.

I would also contact OM, and tell him you know about their conversations and stay the he11 away from your WW.

Owl and Jim,

I know I shouldn’t let her back in the house before all requirements are met but my feeling got the best of me. You guys were dead on with your advice to look at her actions than her words. This is the worst mistake that I made and now I need to deal with it as best as I can.

I met with MC today alone since she was a no show; as suggested by you guys and her that I’m should go back to Plan A with unconditional love, no demanding requests and judgments. I will continue snooping and hope that she gets over her withdraw; I will expose and contact her work if she establishes contact again. I feel she’s trying to establish N/C but just too weak to fulfill them, from what I see the OP is trying as well but still not acceptable. I’ll keep you guys posted.

Thanks,

Well, it started to make sense now, WW asked me for a DV last night. I told her I’m not interested in DV talk; that’s what my atty is for. I also suggested if she wants to carry her A, she should leave the house. She sounds like she’s been advised by an atty of not leaving our home so my situation is dire. She said that she doesn't want to be in an apartment again, if she move, it will a place of her own. The only way that she could do that is from a DV settlement. I need support and advise from you guys today. Help!!

This is why you don't let them back in before they agree to your plan B conditions. I would get with an attorney. I would separate your finances so that you alone are in control of 3/4 of your finances, and hold her accountable for talking on the phone, emailing, going out with other men, etc. I would start documenting who watches the kids, etc., preparing for a custody battle.

Other than that, I would tell her flatly that you will not agree to a divorce, and that you know she wants out of the marriage right now, but with some time and effort, things will be better. Right now she does not want to be the bad guy, so she is going to try and convince you to say, "sure, I want a divorce too. Let's make this amicable." Don't fall for it.

Jim,

Thanks for being here for me, I really appreciate it.

Since I just come out of a four month Plan B, attorney and finances are secured. I think she has limited if not all contacts with the OP so she could said to me and others that the DV was not about him; it’s about she’s no longer in love with me. How could I hold her accountable to all those things if she wouldn’t let me have them in the first place? I could snoop and snoop but what do I do if there is contact? I have threatened to put all her belongings in the driveway and lock the doors (she doesn’t have the keys) if there is contact but I’m fear that she’ll call the cops. She knows her legal right and doing so will hurt me if we have to go thru a custody battle.

I will never break down and go along with an amicable divorce.

She can't love you right now because she is still in withdrawal from OM. It won't end until 6 months after there is NC. So, make sure there is NC. If there is contact, make there be consequences. Re-expose everytime there is contact. If she contacts OM via cell phone, shut off her service. If she contacts OM from her work, expose to her employers. If she contacts him via email, turn off the internet.

As far as her stating that she doesn't love you anymore, you need to try and listen to her and understand her. Tell her you understand that she doesn't anymore and that she doesn't think she can, but you know in your heart if you keep trying things will improve. Keep trying to give her hope and let her know that she shouldn't feel bad for not loving you, that it will come back in time and she's worth waiting for. Also, the best thing for you children is you two to have a happy marriage so you are going to do everything possible to make that happen.

Jim, Thanks for your advise.

Update:

Yesterday WW called me at work and wanted to talk but I was in the middle of a meeting so I told her that I’ll call her back. When I finally got back to her, she was busy ferrying my DS7 to his tutoring and day activities for my DD9 and her friends. We decided it’s best to talk after the kids are in bed.

All day I have the feeling that she has asked her attorney to file for DV and wanted to give me the heads up that I’ll be served. It was gut wrenching for me to said the least.

Finally we got to talk and she told me that she wants to know how I feel about our current situation and wanted to give us a chance to work on us without the OP in the picture. I told her that I still want to make our marriage work and N/C needs to be established in order for that to happen.

She told me that she has been in phone contact with OP the last two days but they both knew deep down that these contacts must stop or our marriage will not survived. According to WW, the OP is pushing her really hard to make our marriage to work because he knew that they don’t have a future together. She told me her feeling about the OP and her feeling toward me. She wants to make our marriage to work for the kids so they don’t have a broken home. At this time she will give me access to her email, voice mail and cell phone accounts but she could not get into R talk or reading SAA and HNHN. She wants to start slow so we could reconnect staring with becoming friends before any R talk could happen. I agreed with her on the approach and I also agreed that we were never friends during our relationship that turns into a marriage. I do want to become her best friend.

All this is very encouraging where the WW fog is thinning. I will keep you guys posted on any new developments.

Well, I'd caution you on that "no MC, HNHN, or SAA" issue.

Tell her that you'll accept that...for now. But set a DATE, a set date that you'll no longer allow your marriage to 'just sit there'. And don't make it some kind of insanely long timeframe either.

And make it clear that after that, you will REQUIRE MC to ensure that your marriage can recover. Make it clear that you can accept that she's not ready at the moment, but that you also are going to NEED this step to ensure that your marriage will survive. So you're compromising by holding off on that requirement...until XXX. Make sense?

Owl, thanks for your reply.

We'll do MC, she just can't get into reading HNHN and SAA right now because it's too much for her to take at one time. I don't think our marriage is just going to sit, what she meant I think is to have us reconnecct first; start dating and enjoy each other's company and do things together. I'll not let our marriage sit if that's her intention.

Thanks again.

Withdrawal from OM is her problem, and NC is the only thing that can cure it. I'm glad she can peek through the fog enough to realize that. Remember, your WW is an addict and she can't be trusted. You need to help her get through withdrawal. I promise you, 2-3 months of NC and you will really start to see some positive improvement in your situation. Just be patient and avoid LBs. Really work to meet her ENs and get the 15 hours/week together.

Jim,

I’m completely agreed with you, NC and getting through her withdrawal are the keys. Good thing that we have our one week vacation in Mexico starting next Thursday, I hope this will take some pressure off from WW’s addiction. We also have another vacation planned at the end of August so that’s two weeks to take her mind off from her poison.

I’m back!!! Update:

One week vacation in Mexico did me good; we all including WW had a great and relax time. During the trip WW started two spates attacks for minor stuff, I just let it all roll off my back. Otherwise, we got along fine. The only intimate moment is when I held her hand for about 5 minutes during a bus trip but she makes some excuse, pulled away and never returns. Other than that, no R talk or loving moment; I was trying to stay away from her spates attacks more than anything. Going away with 20 other people help ease her from starting fights with me.

Last night I asked WW to go to our MC meeting today and she refused to go, her excuse is that she’s too busy (fog talking). She said just because we are doing family stuff together doesn’t mean that she’s working on our marriage. She says she’s only here for the kids but she also wants to be happy too. As she put it, she wants to see if we could get along first before she would work on us (more fog talking). Anyway, I attended the meeting by myself.

At this moment, she has given me accesses to email, cell phone records and passwords. One troubling development is that she uses the OP’s name as part of her work email password and last night when I asked her if she would change the password to respect my feeling, she says no because she uses it since she’s been at her job. She also said that she just changed it yesterday and she still kept his name. I LB a little and told her that it is disrespectful and there is something wrong with her. Let‘s see if she’ll change it when she returns to work on Thursday.

Things are not looking up but I do see some minor changes. As far as I know, there is N/C and I hope it’ll stay that way. I of course will keep at snooping and make sure N/C is in place.

Plan A continues.

Using his name is VERY disrespectful to you. My FWH used OW's birthday for his cellphone password. Trouble is, that I didn't figure it out until we were about three months into recovery. He immediately changed it when he realized how hurtful it was to me.

Sounds like your WW is still majorly in the fog and trying to hang on to any kind of connection.

If she refuses to change her password, instead of getting into a big fight, just change it for her and let her know it has been changed. When she starts laying into you, just ignore her. This way she knows that you are going to demand respect, and you aren't going to be manipulated. Problem solved.

So NC has been in place for how long at this time?

Her actions and talk do NOT sound like someone in withdrawl...they sound like someone still engaged in an active affair to me.

I really think that you need to set some stronger expectations on her. If she wants to stay, she MUST begin MC with you. She cannot remain if she continues to refuse to work on the marriage. She doesn't want to try...because deep down, she knows that if she tries, she'll find herself falling in love with you. And to her, that will be a betrayal of what she had with OM. My wife went through the same mental gymnastics...until I had enough and told her that if she's not going to make an effort to reconcile, she may as well leave and file right now. Not when SHE felt like it, but right now.

End result of our case? Later that same night she decided to 'try'. We're three years into recovery now.

PM & Jim, thanks for your reply.
Very disrespectful in regards to her password, unfortunately, I can’t change it because she needs to initiates a password reset to her IT department. Let’s see what she does when she’s back in her office tomorrow. I’ll remind her tomorrow but I wouldn’t demand it.

Owl,
Thank you for your comments as well. As far as I could tell, her last NC was broken on 7/11 and we were away in Mexico for a week so she’s still fresh in her withdrawn mode. I tried strong arm tactics a number of times; the latest was when I found out she contacted the OP a few days before 7/11. I threw all her cloths from the walk-in into the hallway and told her the next time it will be in the driveway unfortunately it was in front of the kids. I felt terrible and don’t want to do that again because it really putting a lot stresses in our relationship and seems to push her away even more. I’m going to try to be more understanding and patient with her bad behaviors by letting her know it hurts me and wish she could change by showing her kindness and love. I guess a better Plan A and show her how life could be post recovery. I’m going with a softer approach and see if this will lift the fog.

I have asked her to leave but she wouldn’t at the advice of her attorney as she puts it. She knows her legal rights to the house and know how police will react if called upon. I know, I know, I should have not have let her back into the house but I need to move beyond that. At this point, demanding of any type would just push her away further and if I ask her to file, I may actually get it. I think my wife is in a lot deeper than yours. In time maybe after a couple of months but right now I need to practice a good Plan A.

One more question for you or others, my WW has never went back to or falling back in love with a bf/lover after broken up with them and she told me given her history she doesn’t think that she can fall back in love with me especially after falling for the OP. Did your or other FWW that have never fall back in love before the stitch actually does fall back in love? Don’t know if the question is clear or not but I’m just wondering what my success rate will be with her relationship history.

I don't think its her 'relationship history' that's the issue here.

I seriously think she's still wayward. And given that her last 'dose' of OM was just a few weeks ago, that COULD still be your problem. I'd say that given this, you might consider letting things 'ride' for another month or two.

BUT...you HAVE to start enforcing some boundaries, RIGHT NOW. You hurt your situation a LOT by accepting her back without them, and that's going to make it even more difficult NOW for you...but it has to be done or your marriage stands no chance at all.

You need to INSIST on some respect. You need to INSIST on honesty and openness. I know that you're concerned that she'll consider it a 'deal-breaker' and leave. And I'll admit...its a possibility. But I think that you're marriage is at MORE risk if you allow things to continue in the fashion that they are.

You need to have a sit down and make things come to a head...she needs to either be there "for the children" AND to work on the marriage...or she needs to get back out. What she's doing now is NOT helping the children, its not in anyway helpful. She needs to quit acting like a self-centered, snot-nosed little girl...and START acting like a grown up woman who can admit her mistakes and take actions to fix them.

Maybe not today...maybe in another week or two...but no longer than that.

If you sit here and allow this to continue, she's going to destroy your love for her...that's her real intent here, I think. She wants to hurt you and make you angry enough with her that you don't want her anymore.

Does this make sense to anyone but me?

Does your WW fit this profile?

Love addiction

Owl,

I’m going to treat her as though she’s in the early stage of withdrawn so I will hold out on demanding MC and further working on our M until school starts. We have a vacation planned at the last week of August so after that should be the right time. During the mean time, Plan A and keep my eyes on N/C. I know you’re concern about our M being stalled and going nowhere; so am I. As long as N/C is in place, I could wait it out.

H&P, no she’s not the type that sleeps around and looking for love in all places. She has only five relationships with me being the sixth. She’s the type that gets emotional attached when she’s in love and that’s where she’s at right now.

Mike,

I did not mean to imply that she was the type to sleep around, but is she the type to like the hunt but get bored when she catches the prey and begin looking for the excitement, newness, in love feeling, romance, discovery that comes with immature and new relationships. In other words is she bored by marriage and its responsibilities and some of the mundane associated with knowing someone 5, 10, 20 years?

Thanks.

H&P, I'm the longest relationship that she had being 12 years now. Her other two serious relationships 2 & 3 years respectively ended when her ex's cheated on her. Her other relationships are short live of less than an year. With that being said, her other relationships are not love addiction but with me I do believe it is. She was addicted to me because she was crazy about me or at least being able to have me falls for her was her ultimate high. I was her catch but our problem didn't start until our second kid so she wasn't looking right away. So you tell me if she fit the pattern.

Does this sound like WW is in withdrawn?
Latest email from WW:

MTC,
i already know you've changed...helping me around the house and wanting to do everything w/ me is NOT what i want from you. it actually turns me off. i don't enjoy my time w/ you. sorry that it hurts but u don't seem to want to admit to the truth. if you want to convince me that u have feelings and emotions, then u should know how i feel.

i already know what the outcome is and so do you...why do we have to keep torturing ourselves? like i said, i know you've changed but there's that dark side of you that i will NEVER FORGET OR FORGIVE. it will stay w/ me forever...it's not only that...i just don't want to be your wife anymore. i can tell you what we've being doing the last few days is not good for the kids and 2,3,4 mths from now, it will be the EXACTLY the same. i've told u time and time again...i cannot go backwards on my feelings no matter how hard i try.

WW

It sounds like continued contact.

Her: I already know you've changed...helping me around the house and wanting to do everything w/ me is NOT what i want from you. it actually turns me off. i don't enjoy my time w/ you. sorry that it hurts but u don't seem to want to admit to the truth. if you want to convince me that u have feelings and emotions, then u should know how i feel.

You: Then why did you come back? I'm not keeping you here.

Her: i already know what the outcome is and so do you...why do we have to keep torturing ourselves?

You: The outcome that I'm sure of is that I will keep fighting and working on this marriage until it is fixed.

Her: like i said, i know you've changed but there's that dark side of you that i will NEVER FORGET OR FORGIVE.

You: If I can forgive you for cheating on me, then I'm sure you'll be able to forgive me for my past transgressions in time.

Her: i just don't want to be your wife anymore.

You: Then why did you come back?

Her: i can tell you what we've being doing the last few days is not good for the kids and 2,3,4 mths from now, it will be the EXACTLY the same.

You: What's not good for the kids is growing up in a broken home and having their mother cheating on their father.

Her: i've told u time and time again...i cannot go backwards on my feelings no matter how hard i try.

You: Well, you obviously haven't tried hard enough. I've been at this for a year, and haven't given up.

Also, she is sabotaging it so she can be with OM after YOU AGREE to divorce. Don't agree and she won't D you.

There IS contact going on. It is up to you to find it and expose it.

WW [/quote]

release her.

Jim,

You don’t think that’s her resentment during withdrawn? Thanks for your analysis and responds to her comments; it’ll be most helpful at home this weekend. I’m just not good with words and responds. I don’t think there are contacts but I have been wrong before especially about her WW ways. I’ll keep at finding out how she makes contact. So far, she has given me access to all her email and voice mail. BTW, she removed the OP’s name from her password today so that’s one bright moment. The only place she could make contact is from work; with him calling her there or using a calling card. Either way, I’m just fishing since I don’t know for sure and I can’t get access to the records.

According to WW, the reason why she comes home is for the kids. Acting the way she is certainly does not help the kids’ development. I know she’s trying to break me down but if she thinks that I’ll go along with a friendly divorce, she has another thing coming. I will not bend on that, it’s too important to me.

Thanks again for being here for me when others have gave up on me.

Hi Lexxy, you mean to give her a DV?

nope -- don't do any of the work regarding a divorce. Make her do it all. (protect yourself financially...file a legal separation if needed)

Just tell her she is free to go. Be calm and assertive.
Stop the struggle.

She has told you that she sees all of your changes. She's just going to battle with you over semantics. She is NOT in withdrawal. She is NOT in recovery. She is still in limbo and will drive you crazy with it.

Take yourself OUT of the equation. First get her out of the house, and then go back to Plan B.
She only responds to you when you stop chasing her. So STOP CHASING HER. You cannot force her into recovery. Wait until she WANTS to be there!

When she wants to come back -- make sure you are in control of that whole process. Boundries!!!

She's clearly trying to sandbag your recovery efforts. I would just continue to put on a happy face, not respond to her emails trying to bate you on and get you to give up, and work at being a super-sleuth to try and detect contact.

She is trying to sabotage your efforts for some reason. One could be that she is still in contact with OM. Another may be to get you to agree to and amicable D, so she can go back to pursuing OM. Either way, don't your WW sandbag your efforts. You are just going to have to be teflon until she gets through withdrawal from OM, but I would definitely be verifying using every means possible.

You can also use this as a way to enforce your boundaries. Don't take her abuse. If she sends emails like this again, email her back telling her you are blocking her email address until she learns to respect you. If she wants to berate you over the phone, tell her politely that you are hanging up and she can talk to you only in a respectful tone. If she wants to through a fit at home on the weekend, just go out and have fun with your kids without her. Don't tolerate her abuse.

file a separation and get her out of the house.

she is not back in the house to work on the marriage -- she's only there to restore her financial and asset position.

Thanks Lexxxy, I'm financially protected so legal separation is not needed. Actually LS will hurt me more because I would need to pay her CS and Alimony. I have told her many times that she is free to go but she won't on the advice of her attorney.


I can't get her out of the house. She just wants an easy DV and I’m not giving her that without a fight.

Lexxxy, filing a separation order will not get her out of the house without cause. My attorney has told me that. He also said that if anyone is to leave it's most likely me because in my state, the man usually leave if problem existed between the couples.

I agreed fully with you Jim on her actions and comments.

It might be the common thing for the man to leave but you don't have to if you are the innocent spouse. That's not a federal law.

Why reward the A by forcing the BS to leave? What good is that?

Btw, I'd check into getting another lawyer. That one seems to only want to go with the norm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid,

WW and I have the right to stay in the house even if a legal separation is filed. Two lawyers have told me the same thing that the likelyhood for me to leave is greater if the court is to decide on one of us to leave due to physical abuse or for the best interest of the children. Another reason is that I would have to pay her CS and temp alimony. With both of these in mind and my finances in check, why should I file for legal separation?

The lawyers are stating the norm. Present your case as NOT the norm. Check out more options. It is becoming more prevalent that mothers can also abandon their families (including their mates). Affairs have twisted what the norm s/b.

Where are you located? Don't need specific city but state info may help some here experienced with that area to know HOW you can get help. I would NOT move out. You are the stable one and you s/b documenting this. You may have to prove your case in court....at least plan for it.

take care,
L.

I'm in NJ. Since WW has not abandon her children, just me, I don't have legal ground to get her out of the house. Legal separation is not the way to go; at least for me.

So what are the benefits for filing?

Thanks,

You don't have to make it comfortable for her to be a WS and live in your home. What are the requirements for your valued family members in your home? You don't have to tell us, just think about it.

Remember to present all as a family. Care and concern are better words than ILY.

Getting the WS in my case wasn't legal either. I just didn't make it comfortable for him to stay there.

Check out your rights with your local area. Do some research. Don't assume you can't.

L.

Orchid, could you give me some examples of not making it comfortable for WW? I have not been able to find her broken N/C so if I make it uncomfortable, wouldn't that be LB on my part. I need a lot of help from people like you.

As of last night, she's complaining about not having control of our larger ($100K+) family finances (401K, IRA and stock accounts). She says that I owe her money from 2006's Tax refund that I deposited into my account which amount to about $10K. I think she's pissed that she doesn't have money for her use whichever that is.

Thanks,

Mike --

In Plan A you worry about lovebusts.
In recovery also, but you mutually agree on other marriage-building principals.
You aren't in either place.

You are still dealing with an active WW. She was in contact with OM as little as 3 weeks ago. You are living in a danger zone where she knows your plans and is able to work around them. She is simply going to take her affair further underground where your spying won't find it.

Absolutely do NOT give her access to your financial information. She is not your wife. She is an enemy to the family.

Husband and Wives do not "owe" each other money. Very obvioiusly she is trying to get her hands on cash. What do you suppose that is for? To further her affair, or fund a divorce. Do not allow it because she is "complaining."

Lexxxy, No way would I give her access to the money or financial info. Like you're saying, I'm in limbo and I just don't know how to treat her or act around her right now. I'm trying Plan A as best as I can but it's not working right now. Maybe until after our vacation in Orlando at the end of this month then I would demand more from her. I don't think LB is the way to go right now, what do you think?

MikeTC,

Lexxxy is correct. H & W's don't owe each other $$.

You are already making it hard on her. She wants control over the $$? Nope.... bad move.

Start putting on the screws a bit more. With each babble or whine.....put on more restrictions.

1. Financial cutoff - including canceling credit cards in both names.
2. computer tracking
3. Phone tracking (i.e. cell listing, etc.)
4. Background search on OM.
5. Exposure (this s/b #1) and continue with updates as needed.

Expect her to complain that all the above actions are hostile. Let her know you are aware they are quite hostile to the WS but NOT to your real W. Emphasize the difference between your real W and the WS. Then expect her to turn on some charm to get on your good side (once she determines you are her $$ bag). You can test this by NOT giving in, then see if she turns hostile. If so, it was a facade or false show of affection. If she agrees her actions were bad and she needs help to change....still be cautious but have a recovery plan which includes a very good IC/MC. I recommend Jennifer C @ MB. Jennifer does phone counseling and can guide you well.

L.

These plans are not designed for jumping back and forth.
You lose credibility when you state a boundry and then don't enforce it.
I think you harmed yourself HUGELY by letting her back into the house.
At this point I STRONGLY suggest you get guideance from Steve or Jennifer at Marriage Builders. Schedule an appointment ASAP (before vacation).
Get together a summary -- use your posts to get a timeline together.

Lexxxy, I know I harmed myself when I let her back prematurely but I have not jumping back and forth. My Plan is Plan A since she’s back and boundary is N/C. I have thrown all her cloths into our foyer/hallway when I last found broken N/C. I have told her the next time it’ll end up in the driveway even though I’m not sure I’ll put her belonging in the driveway but it’s a strong possibility. I have no hard evidence that she have broken N/C since then even though it is suspected by most of you that contacts maybe continuing.

I can’t afford Steve at this time and I don’t think she’ll participate anyway. I think our MC is doing a good job but WW just wouldn’t participate or work on our M. It’s just a waste of money to counsel with Steve at this time.

don't tell me you can't afford it:



I am not suggesting both of you talk to Steve. Just you.
To get a plan together. You need professional help with this.

I assumed when she left home, you went to Plan B. Then she wanted to come home. So you jumped back to Plan A.
Is that not the case?

Lexxxy, You know what, just to have all bases covered, I will seek help from Steve/Jennifer but I think I know what they're going to said.

How do I go about getting an appointment? How do I present my summary to them once I got it together?

Go to the counseling center link above and follow the instructions.

Btw, you may think you know what they will say and you may know some of it but even it is totally reiterating what you already know, it w/b helpful.

Steve & Jennifer are both excellent at helping the BS and family. As for the WS, that varies based on the WS' attitude at the time. Still it is worth for every BS to consult with them. Most don't but should. I'm glad I did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Worth every penny I scraped to meet with him.

L.

Orchid and Lexxxy,

I went to the counseling center and requested a session. Do I just have a summary of my stitch ready for my session? How precise do I have to get with the details?
I'm going at it alone since WW will not join me.

I think its BETTER that she not join you.
This is for you.
To get a marriage builders endorsed plan for YOU.

I sincerely don't know whether to advise you to Plan A some more or expose more. I think you need to regroup and call in the pros!

I think most people call their 800# to schedule the appointment. So glad you are doing this!
You will not regret it!

I suggested pulling your notes together simply to be prepared. That hour flys by, and you want to make the most of it. Having those answers at your fingertips will help you feel ready.

Please let us know when you have your appointment!

Update:

Now I have a confirmation why WW been talking about finances lately. Last night she told me that she's going to dip into her 401K (~$85K) to finance a DV. She has it all planned out, she's going to lose about $30K to tax and penalty but still have about $50K to fight me in court. She's OK with losing that kind of money. She sound like she’s really serious about it so things are definitely is looking grim.

It may be too late for Steve to help if she follows through.

Tell her that she should plan to take out an additional loan to because that will not be enough if she thinks she is going to replace you with OM, have you send a CS check and take 1/2 of your things just because she decided to become a lying, immoral, cheating, selfish, deceitful, WW.

Update (OP doesn't want to play anymore):

I confronted WW last Friday (8/10) after I found out she took half day from work to drop in to see the OP a day earlier (8/9). I told her I was hurt by her actions and was going to let it go (Plan A) without LB. When I asked her to tell me the truth about her meeting as well as what was said during this meeting, she basically told me that I don’t deserve the truth and don’t need to respond to my questions. I lose it and physically threw her A$$ out of the house. Before it got out of hands (like her calling the cops), I asked one of our friend to come over and tell her she needs to respect me in our home and needs to tell me the truth.

While waiting for our friend to come over the house and her staying in the garage, I called the OP and told him not to contact or meeting with my wife. He responded that he didn’t want contact with her and it is WW that shows up at the store where he works during the day to talk to him. He said that he told her to go back and work on our marriage back in May and have not change his stand. He told her that they will not have a future; he is feeling terrible and guilty about their A especially the affects (DV if it happen) on my children. He wants his own children (not mine) and WW may not be able to have children because of her age and she is in menopause. He also told me to let WW know that he does not want to be contacted; if she does, he will let me know by email or to call me.

I eventually let her back into the house after an hour or so. After she's back in, she told me she makes contact because she has a weak moment (No sh*t, tell me something I don't know). From OP, apparently one of their mutual friend told WW she needs to move on because the OP told her that he’s moving on. She also told me that she’s sorry that she makes contact but she just cannot be married to me any more. With me watching her every move (Deep WW Fog); she have seen a lawyer and told me to be expected to be served. I told her that I’m not going to talk about DV and need to go thru my lawyer for that type of discussion. She says that she will seek a DV even if I drag it on and spent all our children’s education money. When I told her OP doesn't want to be contacted, she freaks out and told me that I screw everything up; it is the worst thing that I could do and I will pay for it. She also said why do I have to get him involved (hello, is anyone home??)

Today, OP email me this morning to let me know that WW makes contact. He told her to make that their last contact and not to be involved or contacted again. He also told her that there will not be any future with him even if we end up in a DV. He also said that he’s sorry, but that’s all he could do is not to make contacts with her and wish my family luck and happiness. I responded by thanking him for letting me know and I will not explored and get nasty, and foremost not in front of the kids.

I also have my first session with Steve Harley, he told me basically to Plan A and not LB. To let her knows that I care and the ideal situation for our family; where WW is whole heartily in love with the father of her children. If she does file for DV, I need to drag it out as long as possible. He also wants me to convince WW to talk with him, even if only for one session.

Consult with a lawyer and document everything you can that would put you in a favorable custody situation. If she does file for D, you need to file for full custody. Don't have SF with her (if she would even let you) if adultery plays any part in support payments or property. Basically, get your gunners lined up in case she files, and hopefully if she does, you can make her retreat quickly once you blast her with the consequences of her actions. I would also protect your portion of your assests. If you have two children, withdraw 75% of it and open up a new account that she doesn't have access to.

If the OP follows through on what he tells you, then that's a great development. Infidels are, of course, liars.

Jim & sdguy,

I told WW last night that I received an email from OP about her trying to contact him. She gave me a sorry As$ excuse that she has a weak moment and just want to ring his cell once and then hang up (I didn’t buy it). She said that she doesn’t expect him to pickup and didn’t think it will show up on his cell phone (another lie because as soon as it ring, it will show up on his cell as a missed call). She did say that he text messaged her back and told her to stop further contact; I confirmed it with the OP today and that’s the extent of their contact yesterday. WW told me that’s it is really mess up where OP and I are working together against her; she thinks that we’re most likely going to continue communicate and talk about her. I told her I don’t see it that way, as long as she stops contact, there would not be a need for OP and I contacting one and other. Of course she doesn’t like it since we are taking the excitement and secretive out of her actions.

OP appears to be honest with me; at least for now. I of course will cross check his information to make sure he is on the level. I will not let up until they could be trustworthily. Thank God OP appears to see thru the thick fog.

Our MC called WW last night to ask her to remind me of today’s appointment; MC did that to get WW to go for IC since couple counseling is not in the picture right now. I told WW that she should go for me and she told my offer. After her meeting with the counselor today, she asked me if I could let her go to counsel alone and not talk to our MC because she needs to talk to someone about her inner feelings and feel that it is conflict of interest if I go see and talk to our MC too. I of course said it will be Okay.

From what I could gather last night and this afternoon, WW is putting the serving paper on hold, at least for now. I do have an attorney ready and will go for full custody if need be. Our finances are totally separated since Plan B started in January so that’s not a worry.

Comments? Think this is progress?

Mike:

She's DOING NOTHING with the Lawyer.

Count on it.

She is spouting.

OP may be being truthful with you. "Trust, but verify"

When busted, some OP just want to get away as well.

Something about light and cockroaches.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Your doing the right thing.

If OP sends you a text that WW has contacted agian, say thank you to OM, and let your WW know that you know.

If the excitement is all gone, then theres no reason to play in that sandbox.

And if OP doesn't respond to her, but contacts YOU, then you just have to work on WW.

And you are way far ahead at that point.

LG

I think its AWESOME that OM is letting you know about her attempts! Lets hope he continues and is honest.

Hopefully she will start to feel some embaressment about it. But more likely she will start to get ANGRY about it, and take it out on you. And she will likely get mad about him not answering her calls and get more persistant about it feeling like she is OWED an explanation.

She's not going to be receptive to you at the moment. So expect anger and resentment and more alien-speak.
She needs to get withdrawn from OM.

I agree with LG -- she's not pursuing anything with attorneys. But are you prepared if she does?

Do you know what happens based on who files first? Would she have a way to make you move out?

Mike,

Just think of your situation as survivor.

Outwit, outplay, outlast.

You'll get off the island eventually, so suck it up for that million dollars.

LG, Lex & Jim,

You guys are dead on with assessment of WW. The excitement is definitely gone and the air is out of WW’s A balloon and it is really toxic. At this time she’s pissed about not being able to play in her sandbox. She is resentful and very angry with me; trying to convince me that I’m holding on and not given her the DV that eventually in her words “that will happen”. I just tell her that I’m not interested in any DV talk. All weekend, I’m trying to stay away from becoming one of the causality of her crash & burn.

I’m ready if she does go thru with filing but it appears to be on hold. In my state, there is no advantage to be the first one to file other than put up with the filing fee.

LMAO on light and cockroaches, I’ll trust but verify as well. I’m glad OP is doing this for me and my family; hopefully he’s man of his words.

I promise that I’ll out last her; one way or another.

Thanks all.

Update:

It has been 3 months since my last update. I didn’t update because things are basically the same at home. WW is no longer in contact with OP and has not talking about filing for DV lately; at least I think it is anyway. WW basically told me that I should not hold out hopes for us getting back together because she’s no longer in love with me and never will. She wants me to give her a DV but would not file because she knows that I would not make it easy for her. She said that she’s here for the kids and do the right thing but would not go counseling of any kind. In her book, coming home and being with me is taxing enough and that’s all she could give.

At this point I still in Plan A and not LB but I don’t know how long I could keep this up. She is just cake eating where I’m taking care of the house hold finances including big ticket items like taxes, heath insurance, my son’s tuition while she pays for her own expense including her car’s gas, toll & insurance, the kids everyday items (clothing, toys etc…) and most of the grocery bill. She thinks that’s fair because I make 3 times more than her part time job. I think I want to pressure her to pay half of the expenses if she wants to live like roommates; I know she won’t pay but at least I knock her off her cake eating fence but this is also LB. What do you think?

She is very angry and mean to me, told me not to ever do anything for her. I made breakfast, gave her a card and roses on her B-day; she told me never to do anything like that again because she does not appreciated it and don’t want me to get the wrong idea. Thanksgiving is coming and she told me to take our kids to my mom’s for the day and leave her alone so she could have a peaceful and quite day. She does not want to celebrate holiday or special occasions of any kind because of the emotional breakdown. I told her that I cook at home because I don't want to celebrate without my whole family together.

Appreciate any comments that you may have and have a happy holiday.

First of all, are you sure that there is NC with any OM? Have you eliminated the possibility of your WW being involved with another OM?

If you're absolutely sure that there's no-one else at this point, all I can say is that it seems your WW is "stuck". She likely declared to herself that your M was "over" in order to give herself permission to indulge in the A. Now that the A is over, and the M isn't, she can't bring herself to admit that her choices were so bad, so wrong.

I would suggest continuing the Plan A, but make sure that you don't interpret that as "Plan Appeasement". Set some personal boundaries and enforce them when she crosses them.

Concerning thanksgiving, if I was you, I certainly wouldn't even consider taking the children and leaving the home so she could have a "quiet and peaceful day". Let her know she can always excuse herself to one of the rooms if she doesn't want to take part.

I agree w/ MIM. Some recoveries take longer than other. I would just continue to be the best husband you can be, but at the same time keep a careful eye for other men. Maybe you can get some advice from the Harley's again. Keep up with plan A, but don't allow yourself to be a doormat. If you think she needs to keep up with her end of the finances, follow through. Don't let her treat you like garbage. Eventually the guilt might catch up with her, and she will start working on the marriage.

If your relationship comes up (and I wouldn't bring it up), I would say, "we're not getting a divorce, so don't you want to improve our relationship?"

Thanks MIM and Jim,

I’m pretty sure there is no contact with the OP but you can never be sure because I can’t track her 24/7 and she wouldn’t tell me what’s her schedule or talk to me. I’m 100% sure that there is no one else other than the OP in our life at this time.

MIM you said “If you're absolutely sure that there's no-one else at this point, all I can say is that it seems your WW is "stuck". She likely declared to herself that your M was "over" in order to give herself permission to indulge in the A. Now that the A is over, and the M isn't, she can't bring herself to admit that her choices were so bad, so wrong.”

You’re so right with this statement about stuck and declared our M dead, she wants to prove to the world that our marriage was over before OP; she also want to prove that the MB principles do not work because her situation is different than others.

The only boundary I have is that there is NC with the OP; don’t know what else I should impose if she wants nothing to do with me. She stills a good mother to our children and they are happy so that’s a blessing for me.

As for Thanksgiving, I’ll not go to mom’s without her and I know she wouldn’t go. I have a turkey sitting in our frig ready to go. If she wants to have something else than turkey, I would just go along with it. She already said that she doesn’t want turkey because it creates a mess and require big cleanup in the kitchen. I always have turkey for Thanksgiving so hopefully she’ll change her mind.

At this time, I’ll stay the course on Plan A and give ourselves more time and see what happen.

Have a great holiday and a good weekend.

Thanksgiving update:

We had turkey for Thanksgiving; thank god for that because I never go thru Thanksgiving without the big bird. WW asked me to cook the bird for Thanksgiving last Wednesday and she invited her dad. Thankfully I thaw the bird and it come out great. The day was mostly peaceful.

One of WW’s gf was taking her out to dinner last Saturday for her B-day so I took the opportunity and dropped off the kids to play with their cousins during the day and then I went there for dinner while WW went out. The kids had a ball since they haven’t seen their cousins and my family for a couple of months.

While the kids were playing with their cousins, I met up with WW at the gym and worked out. Even though we weren’t working out together; we were still doing the same thing together, progress I guess. After the gym, we went out to lunch; we had some small talk and things appear to be normal. After lunch, as we were driving to the supermarket to do some shopping, she had an emotional meltdown and told me why are you so happy, things aren’t normal between us even when you tried to act like everything is fine… I just ignore her and continue my journey.

Well, at least I had my turkey and my kids are happy. That’s what’s keeps me in this nasty mess.

Sounds like you are slowly breaking her down.

Update:

I was away for a while, just though I come here and vent. It’s sad to say that there was continue contacts until Christmas; they may not be seeing each other but she talked to the OP on the phone at work. The last time is right before Christmas and I was told by the OP that they have stopped since then. I was told of the same too times, so I don’t believe it until proven with time.

Since Christmas, things were clam around the house. We were busy with the kids, holidays, gifts and family stuff. Things were looking up and N/C seems to be holding up. She was very cold to me but we were getting along. Last week, things started to unraveled, she started to be angrier everyday. This past weekend, she told me that she hates her life, hates me and know that she will never love me again. She wants to prove to me that the MB way is wrong and will not work. I got sucks into arguing and LB. Last night, she started a fight in front of the kids and telling them that we are not going to together too much longer and will split up so we don't have to fight anymore. It seems she’s getting the kids ready for DV and may file soon.

I’m just depressed; I don’t know what to do anymore. I know I should just stay away but got suck in anyway. I just tried of Plan A, doing all the work and taking her sh*t . Help.

bump,

Mike, don't know your story, just read your last post.

She could be going through withdrawal...OR...she could be back in C.

As I look back on our false recovery, I can see pretty clearly the times that contact was renewed. FWH turned into the poster boy for A**hole Husbands (sorry MFsFWH, I know you read here...but it's true and I feel ok saying that because even you refer to that time period as "the year that I was an a**hole". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Anyways...I think you should try to verify whether or not NC is in place and expose if you have not done that. You might need to re-expose, however.

And then prepare yourself for Plan B, either way. You are going to lose your love for her if you keep this up.

My $.02 worth.

mike,

Your problem is that contact was allowed to continue. If I were you, I would plan A for the next six months and re-evaluate where you are as long as there is NC. If she is truly in NC, then things may change in a few months. If NC is broken again, I would pack her bags and tell her not to let the door hit her in the @ss and go to plan B/D. The problem in your situation has been the continued contact. Don't allow it. You'll never get to recovery as long as there is contact.

6 MONTHS?!?!?!

No way, I disagree. 6 months is WAYYYYY too long.

I Plan A'ed for 10 months only because I didn't KNOW that I was dealing with an on-going affair and I almost lost my mind, for real. And our recovery is proving that.

If you have already done a good Plan A for a solid amount of time (say, 3 months), it's time for Plan B. Dr. Harley says Plan A alone only works 15% of the time, I believe.

While this is not explicitly explained or really even talked about on MB, I believe a good part of Plan B is the SHOCK the WS feels when suddenly his/her needs are not being met by the BS.

Then the OP must meet those needs all by him/herself and that is IMPOSSIBLE once the "real world" collides with their sick little "fantasy world".

Not only that but that WS becomes AFRAID that they may be stuck with the OP for good, and that is NOT a good option most times. That is rather SCARY to the WS more often than not.

In my case, FWH never was interested in "weighing" both options and that was CLEAR to everyone (except OW)...;) ) from the moment exposure happened. HOWEVER, OW would NEVER have had the opportunity to meet all of his most important ENs because she just doesn't know him like I do, and he was never as honest with her as he has been with me. This is VERY common in affairs.


That being said...Plan B sounds like it may be your best option if you have done an good Plan A and you cannot verify whether or not NC is in place.

Again, my $.02 worth.

I said only if there is NC. If NC is finally established he should take advantage of it. If she contacts OM, it should be straight to plan B.