I understand where you guys are coming from, truly I'm. I had read WH’s SAA and started on HNHN. I believe My WW needs to hear it from the OP that they will not have any future between them. The affair needs to dead in its nature course and I think I will rest from snoop and exposure for a week or two just to see. I’ll get back to snooping and exposure in a couple of weeks.

I agreed with you Lane that ignoring her is not the answer so I’ll try to go into a great Plan A. I have read about Plan A principles in various threads here but could you guys suggest actual examples of what to do while WW is extremely detached without being over bearing, smothering and appear needy. Her birthday is next week BTW and I know she doesn’t want to spend it with me.

Let me ask you one thing.

Why threaten to expose rather than just...expose?

Exposure is not a manipulative tool...it is designed to bring a reality injection into the affair and a mortal blow quite often...so when your wife is planning her divorce, actively in an affair, working with a counselor to achieve this end...I have to wonder what on earth would prevent you from just pulling the trigger?

Are you afraid of her anger? Are you afraid she will be so angry that she'll...divorce you?

She's doing that anyway...she is working every day toward that goal.

It isn't good feelings and remorse that end an affair...it's pain.

The remorse comes after the fog clears...never before.

So imo you have literally NOTHING to lose in doing everything within your power to kill the affair.

I wouldn't wait until after the holidays or after her bday to allow the consequences to hit her square in the chest.

LET her spend her Bday alone and ashamed with her dirty secret broadcast.

Or with OM ranting and railing about what a [email]b@stard[/email] you are.

None of those things hurt your goal...appeasement and entrenchement and tolerance does.

noodle, he already has exposed her affair. Right now the affair is over and the OM will not take her calls. So, she proposed moving out to pursue the OM but wanted Mike's assurance that he would not expose anymore when she did this.

There is nothing more to expose at this time so he is just assuring her that if she does resume her affair, he promises to expose it.

Hey Mike, what would be the point of stopping the snooping if you think she is doing something? There is no point in that. Appeasement will get you NOWHERE!

And the problem with hoping that the affair "dies a natural death" is that you might be completely out of love and on the verge of a nervous breakdown by the time that happens. If the affair doesn't end soon, then its time to go into PLAN B. Waiting around hoping for miracle is much more likely to destroy your marriage, not save it.

Hmmm,

I missed that bit...thanks for the catch up ML.

The reason for not snooping and exposing for a week or two is to give myself some breathing room; snooping is very exhausting for me as well. I don’t want snooping to become an obsession. I think her fire will take a little time to extinguish and does not need my help at this time. She needs to hear it from the horse’s (OP) mouth to really have the idea sink in. I need to be patient at this time.

Around noon today, WW called to say that she needs to go see him but just can’t do it because she knows that I will find out and make a big deal of it. I told her that I appreciate her honesty and hope she wouldn’t do it. I told her if she does, I’ll also be paying the OP a visit. I have yet done a face to face with the OP, and she is afraid what I would do to him if I do. According to WW, the OP is ashamed of what have transpired and really wants nothing to do with continuing the A. In her eyes, going to see him would only bring troubles and heartaches to an innocent person. She’s having lunch with one of her girl friends as I wrote this so this is a good sight. Thank god she decided not to make the visit but you never know.

Examples of what to do in Plan A for a WW that is extremely detached?

Mike, you do need to go have a chat with the OM and have a meeting of the minds. She is probably lying to him about her marital status in order to lure him. You can clear up any false perceptions he may have. Letting him see you in person will help him put a face to your name and he will be less inclined to hurt you. He will also understand that you mean business. You could ask him to send her a letter asking her to never contact him again. That would help you save your marriage and convince her that her affair is really over.

How do you know he is single?

In Plan A, you are as civil as possible and avoid lovebusters. You look for opportunities to fill her EN's where she will let you. ALL WW's are detached. That is an expectation.

He’s single; it’s confirmed by my WW as well as some of her trusted friends. I have spoken to him three times on the phone for the last three weeks and he is feeling guilty by the ordeal. He knows she is married and have two kids which make him depressed (even before my D-Day) and wanted to end the A number of times. My WW always convince him back into the A. I'll do a face to face if needed but I think he's really tried to end this so I'll wait.

For information, my WW was infatuated with me when we first dated. The similarity between OP and me is that we were both surrounded by number of women and it seems that my WW would go through any extremes to get her man. I believe she likes to pride that she gets her man from all these women. I was aback by her actions at the beginning but fell in love with her because I though it was because she was so in love with me. She later told me that she hated me for putting her through the chase because she did so many things that degraded her. She said that I should have dropped all others once she comes into the picture. I think my wife is really sick.

As to the letter you suggested, I have seen recent email from the OP to WW to tell her to work on her marriage and not to ever contact him. So it didn’t mean much to my WW yet. She’s the only one that’s infatuated about the A as she is SOOOOO in love with him (deep fog).

Latest:

WW appears to have N/C with the OP. WW is to stay in our house for now and wait till at least after the New Year to decide whether to file for DV or separation. She’s staying in the guest bedroom and plans her own things; dinners, kid’s activities, going out with friends, gym etc…

It’s her birthday this week and she said that she do not want anything from me. No party, dinner, card, gift, flowers; she wants nothing. What should I do for her B-day since I’m still in Plan A? Any suggestion?

BTW, before she decided to live separate lives, we planned to have dinner for her B-day with another couple. If she wouldn't go, I'll still going to go keep the reservation with some of my male friends, what do you think of this move?

Brother, you need to implement the 180? Have you heard of it? Do a search for it and you'll find it. Trust me, it works.

As far as her birthday goes, I'd get a card but no more. KEEP your plans with the other folks.

Here's the thing, a WW does not respect a weak, appeasing man. Read my threads. I lost my marriage through appeasement. Appeasement doesn't work. Do what is right and don't make anything easy for the ww.

Carry on with your life as if you have had an epiphany that your ex is lost and is holding you back and you simply want to start living again. Your ww can join you if she wants. She will respect this A LOT more than you sitting around hoping she wakes up.

Look, for Mother's Day I cooked my exww her favorite breakfast. I drove 30 minutes to take it to her and give her cards from the kids. I saw it as this great gesture she would be greatful for and would make her think about leaving me. It got me nothing!

WWs are selfish creatures. They will blame you for everything that isn't going their way and will take it out on you. Don't appease. Do what's right and start living.

If you have plans to go out with a group and she has the option to go but doesn't want to, then go without her!

Trust me, she'll respect you more if you start carrying on as if you could care less if she participates in things with you or not. You may not feel that way inside, but she doesn't have to know this.

Please, look for the 180 and do it! If someone else has it, please post it for him.

Good luck. I hope she does wake up and emerges from this fog. You're lucky that the OM doesn't want to be a willing participant in her adultery. If you let her go to be with him, it would fall apart in time simply out of guilt on his part.

NC is the way to go and having his cooperation is very good.

I'm sorry you're going through this, but trust me when I tell you from experience that appeasement will get you nowhere. My ex told me that if I fought her on the divorce that we would never have a chance to be together again since it would get ugly and nasty. I laid down for her and did as she wanted. It's simply so that they can get out without it being hard. Don't do it! Make it hard! Let her know you're not quiting on the marriage and such a move will be entirely hers to make!

Please, hang in there. Man up! She'll respect that.

None of this is easy. The solution is surprisingly easy, it's just horribly difficult to actually do when you are such a mess of emotions inside.

papa, I had follow some of your threads and I feel terrible for you. Now, I'm a little confuse; isn't your Mother's day gesture part of your Plan A? Then wouldn't 180 part of Plan B which I'm currently not on? I want to do a good Plan A right now. Please advise, this is so hard.

I'm planning to give my WW a simple note saying Happy Birthday on it and maybe a small box of chocolate (2-6 pieces). What do you think?

The 180 is done starting with Plan A. Plan B is no contact to let affair run its course, but 180 is fully implemented in Plan A.

I'm going to look for the 180 and post it here when I find it.

Look, your ww will notice when you DONT give her attention, don't beg, plead, or implore.

My ex responded when I quit trying to contact her while she lived with me.

Personally, I would give her a generic birthday card and nothing more. The more attention you give her, the more you turn her away. It's counter intuitive and my ex is an example.

Listen, I sense in you a very similar situation as mine. DON'T make my mistakes!

Don't just go on my opinion on what to do for hre birthday. Someone might tell you to go all out and make her a cake.

I did all kinds of things to hopefully "shake" my ex out of her fog. I put together a video for her of pics of our kids, the birth of our sons and all to Boys 2 Men "On Bended Knee". I had it setup so she could come home, hit play on my computer, and it would play on a projector.

I downloaded Elvis "Always On My Mind" and danced with her in our living room to the words. I wrote letters and did things to try and win her back. She responded to me when I went cold.

I wasn't rude, wasn't mean. Just quit showing her affection and attention. I went out with friends, got out of the house.

“I don’t want to work on the marriage; I’m only moved back home for the kids.”
“I don’t think this marriage will work because you’ll never trust me again.”
“Just because I’m not with the OP, doesn’t mean that I’ll be with you.”
“You should just let me go (DV) which would make it a lot easier.”
“You are suffocating me by watching over me (getting her email accounts, cell phone bills…), send me flowers, send me email with jokes, etc…”

This is all fog speak. My ex said virtually the same stuff.

You need to prepare yourself "just in case". What kind of evidence have you gathered about her?

Consult a lawyer. Again, this is simply "just in case". They can advise you about how to protect yourself if this does go to D. Don't do the work for her, though. Let her do it all.

I know how terrible you feel and understand the pain. Believe me when I tell you, FOLLOW THE ADVICE ON THIS BOARD!!!!

I went back today and read the responses I got from others over the last few months and kick myself for not listening. They were all telling me to do the right things but I thought I was unique and special and that my w was that way too. The quotes above, I heard almost every one of them.

The whole suffocation thing: You have a right to snoop and spy. You've been betrayed. A person without secrets has nothing to hide.

I snooped too. It became an obsession. It is self protection and only right. The problem is when you tip your hand that you have new information. This is very hard to do because you very much want to say something or make her accountable right away, BUT THIS IS A MISTAKE!

I have a friend who found out her H was cheating on her. She didn't let him know for 3 weeks. In that time she took pics of things in his office, wrote down text messages on his cell, had friends take pictures of him while he was out and drinking and kissing other women, printed out e-mails and prepared herself for war.

She was hurting inside. Hurting terribly, but she was smart. She had me at her side coaching her. This site is your coach! Believe the people here!

Now she has tons of evidence to use against him in their divorce.

You need to prepare yourself for that in case it comes to that. Don't let her rob you of your children because she wants to destroy their family and take away their father.

Here's the 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow spouse around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what spouse will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with yur spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 5% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes

Print this out and follow it. Trust me, it works.

papa,

Trust me, this site and the wonderful people here are invaluable in my M’s eventual outcome. I have told many close friends and relatives that my marriage will live or die by the book SAA and inputs from this site. I’ll and do listen to the great folks here.

I do know about the 180 list but I though it's for Plan B. After re-read the list you sent, I'm on 180 without knowing it. That's what I been doing since last week after she asked me to give her space in our home and don't push or smothering her with our M or R issue. I'm still doing Plan A, be nice without LB but I also do most of things on the 180 list. Going out but mostly to the gym a lot.

One side note, a nice looking young lady from the gym did take notice of me this pass Sunday and come over and introduced herself. She complimented me the way I look and it felt good. I’m not going to go there while working on my M but it did give my morel a boost even for a few minutes.

As for the legal stuff, I got my ducks (lawyer) in place just in case. I'm pretty good with civil laws so I know my rights. I have tons of stuff on her but I'm in a no fault state, so adultery don't amount to beans when DV comes into play. My WW wants 50/50 custody and financial settlement anyway, so it’ll not become an issue. At least this week anyway.

Thanks for your concerns and supports.

You will be very vulnerable to a revenge affair. VERY vulnerable. This would be a disaster. I think you recognize that, but I just wanted to throw it out.

I see a lot of myself in your posts. I wish I had listened to the advice on this site. I caved when I shouldn't have.

Good luck and stay on the 180.

Papa, your advise is well taken.

Need more opinions:

At MC last night, WW wants to continue living separate life under the same roof. No family dinner, no outings even family one.

I need opinions of what Papaof3 has suggested of doing 180 while in Plan A. I know he means well but I just like to get more opinions in regard to my present situation. My D-day is only a month ago, it just seem a little early for 180.

Please comment.

Need your inputs. please, don't make me beg.

I think his suggestion of 180 is a good one. In truth, it's probably your best bet at this point. I used something similar when my wife was getting to the end of her withdrawl to 'cut the fog'. I was sick of being blamed for all that was wrong, and finally started to come to the realization that I CAN live without her. And started to show her that. It DID bring her chasing after me more.

The other option would be to tell your wife clearly that you don't want a roomate, you want a WIFE. And if she's not willing to be one, then she needs to move out and find her own way in life....right now.

There's no reason why you should be the one to have to 'suck up' here. She needs to realize that she's part of the family, regardless of how she feels about her marriage. Perhaps suffering the lack of the benifits of the family and marriage will cause her to start seeing some reality?

owl and papa,

I know I could live without her and I’ll be ok. The problem is that my WW is still deep in the fog and she wants to move out of our home for more space. I essentially give her what she wants (to pursuit the A) if I asked her to move out. I think I going to stay in Plan A until the New Year then perhaps go into 180 then Plan B with request for her to move out. I really don’t want to put my kids thru the holiday with 50% of the parents at their side.

Any thoughts.

The 180 is something you do while in Plan A. Read what the 180 says. Nothing in there contradicts plan A.

I know you're hurting. I know you want to love her so much she'll wake up. She won't. Trust us on here. You are not a unique or special case. WSs are the same and I made the mistake of ignoring the advice I was receiving here. I even had other women tell me that if I quit showing my W attention, that she would respond. If you continue to show her affection, if she continues to see you beg, plead, implore, point out the good things in the marriage, smother her with affection, you will do the opposite of what you want.

It is counter intuitive, but it works.

Trust me. Do the 180 for one day. The 180 empowers you. It gives you some control over the situation. She doesn't realize it, but she is used to your affection and knows you're there for her beck and call.

miketc, the 180 is your answer. If you read the things on this site, you'll see that plan A is only a temporary thing.

Mike, please, I'm really asking you to shake your own fog. I was exactly where you are. I believed I was a special case and that my W was different and that the advice on here didn't apply. Don't be like me and find yourself sitting 8 months later wishing you had listened.

The 180 would bring her back to you quicker than continuing to smother her. There's nothing drastic about the plan. As far as throwing her out goes, you certainly shouldn't be the one to leave your house.

Believe us when we tell you: tough love is all that a WS will respond to. This may mean actually throwing her out and into the arms of the other man. The fantasy usually crumbles shortly afterwards. Suddenly, Mr Wonderful is seen for who he really is.

My ex is still in the fog. She still paints me as a bad husband and thinks this divorced existence is what's best for her and the kids. I've been living the reality of this life and she hasn't. It's just now starting to happen since I've actually stood up and started looking out for myself and the kids for a change.

You will want to appease her. You will want to do what she wants because you think this will give you the best chances. That isn't so. You're enabling her if you do it.

Trust me, you have plenty of BSs here that know what they're talking about because they've been exactly where you are. Read WaltW's thread to see how to do a very good 180. His own ex has been responsive to it and finds herself lost. They're on the path to D, but it hasn't been from a lack of trying on his part. Others on here have had very good responses to the 180 and have had their WS wake up.

I hate to tell you this, and it isn't something you want to hear, but your W will likely be thrilled at first to be "free". Odds are that she will leave and you will be hurting very badly. I hope not, because it really hurts and I don't wish this on you, but I'm being realistic.

It is very easy to be weak at this time and not stand up for what you know is right. I tolerated my W going to clubs and leaving me with the kids when she was in the thick of her fog. I went along with everything she asked for. I made it easy for her thinking it would lead us to reconcile eventually if I didn't fight her. Unfortunatly, all I did was enable her. She's gone now and hasn't looked back. I never made her see what she stood to lose. DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKE!

I'm really sorry you're going through this, but you need to understand that your wife as you knew her is dead. The person you're dealing with now only looks like your W. Only through self respect and strength will you coax your W back.

I wish you the best.