Yes, you are crazy because you are not in a position to decide what is or isn't "necessary" for another person to recover. So here is the advice ONCE AGAIN: it is up to the betrayed spouse, and NO ONE ELSE, to decide how much detail they need in order to recover. No one else can decide that for them.

frog, many BS' DO NEED that level of detail or they will imagine MUCH WORSE. The most IMPORTANT thing is the WS is willing to provide them with as much detail as they WANT. That decision always lies with the BS and the WS should be willing to provide it.

Often just that willingness to tell everything, coupled with some general details will suffice, but if it is not, the WS is obligated to oblige the BS. The BS is the BEST judge of what he/she needs to know in order to recover. NO ONE ELSE is qualified to make that decision for them.

Ah I've got it. I thought Sher314 was the BS but is in fact the WS. Well what I said still applies. Whatever the BS needs to know should be truthfully and honestly disclosed.

That fact that my WH can't tell me the most basic thing about his A is very upsetting to me. He keeps saying he can't remember anything other than he thinks it started somewhere between Feb 05 and Aug 05. He says Feb. because there was no snow on the ground. Does he really think I'm that stupid? I think I would remember the exact date I destroyed my marriage.

WH came home just to pick up some clothes last night then left again. I think he was waiting for me to ask him to stay. I can't this time. He said this was a big eye opener for him. Ya, he's said that before too.

I'm having a very hard time with this! I still can't go to work. I've spent my morning so far crying. I just don't want to go through this, but I know I have to or nothing will ever change. If I were to let him come home to soon he will have no reason to change or be radically honest.

WH did agree to talk to Dr. Harley even if not covered by insurance. Should WH contact Dr. Harley or should I? By him initiating contact would prove to me that he is serious.

Thank you all again for getting me through the last 24 hours! I read your replies many times during the day when I feel like giving up. They give me the strength to keep going. Our M could be so beautiful if he would just have the guts to be honest.

tw, that wouldnt hurt for him to call Steve himself. He is a licensed therapist [and is very, very good] and not a doctor. His father is a licensed psychologist and is the one who started Marriage Builders and has the radio show. To find the #, click on counseling center at the link at the top of this page.

I agree with you that nothing will change unless he has motivation to change. You are doing great, so hang in there and don't give up!

Mel,

Sorry you are right. If the BS needs the details of the SF that is up to them. I personally and again personally didn't and don't want that detail.

I hate to even think about it.

So that is why I recommended no. It was hard enough getting the other stuff out of my head.

TW you deserve to get the details you want. You have to know what type of person you are though. Will you be able to move past it if you do find out or if you won't be able to move past it if you don't find out.

I agree about the motivation part too. I waffled too much. I demanded radical honesty but did nothing to motivate her to give it to me.

Thank you frognomore and MelodyLane. I have gotten through another night alone. My WH called me twice during the night. He is staying at our sons house while he is gone. He has a lot of time to think which is good. He hasn't been sleeping or eating though.

One night he drove out and parked in our driveway and sat and looked at our house. He said he walked around the house and noticed light from the TV through the blinds so he knew I was awake. He said knowing he wasn't welcome hit him hard.

I miss him so much. It took everything I had not to ask him to stay. It would have been in a different bedroom, but I know that would have been a mistake. I have to show him I really mean business this time. I refuse to even try to rebuild our M if the foundation is based on lies.

He asked me if I would call and set up appt. with SH. I would rather he did, but we both agreed I would make the first appt. Is it better for the first session be joint MC or IC? I'm going to call now. Wish me/us luck?

bigkahuna and Sher314 - I'm so sorry! I forgot to thank you for your replies here. Please forgive me.

Sher314 - I'm assuming you are a WS. It would be great to get another perspective from WS. Maybe it would help me to try and understand my WH and what he is/was thinking and feeling.

It’s been about a month since I posted last. WH and I have been in MC with Jennifer Harley-Chalmers. A few days before starting MC I had told my WH to leave. JHC asked me to let him move back in for the MC. I agreed.

It has helped in some ways, but I still strongly disagree with moving on and not talking about the past. I tried and I just can’t do it. No matter what nice things my H says or does, it all gets filtered through what he has done to me. Why should I trust someone that can’t be honest with me about the past?

I did find out a few days ago that my WH was still lying to me just before I told him to leave last month. I’m following my instincts from now on. WH did come clean on a few things, but still can’t remember when the A started. I thanked my H for the things I felt were the truth and I’ve been able to put them to rest. Each thing I felt he answered truthfully seemed like a large weight lifted off me. When I know he lied, the weight came down on me 10-fold.

I believe the A went on for a long time. First the EA then the PA.

He told me he had so much guilt after the first time of SF with the OW. If this is true, wouldn’t he have had a tough day at work since they were together before he went to work? I can’t help but think that he didn’t have much guilt after being with OW for the first time. He can’t remember if it was a weekday or weekend. If the first time was on a weekend, he would have had to face me for the day. I just don’t understand why he can’t remember!!! I would like to hear from a WS out there that could explain this to me!

This is haunting me. Not so much the length of time, but the lying. I have tremendous nightmares every night and they are getting worse.

I don’t know if I have the strength to continue. My health is failing and I may not have a job much longer. The stress around me is too much and I can’t escape from it because it’s out of my control.

I’m at a very low point right now. I need the pain to stop and I don’t know what to do. I've called a crisis line but they were no help.

If you look at any of my posts, you will see that I am a champion for the radical honesty cause and believe that a successful recovery without complete and radical honesty is impossible. After you get through the fog issues and both spouses are committed to rebuilding the relationship, radical honesty is fairly easy to POJA but harder to enforce consistently. There is a six of one, half a dozen of the other mentality with all of us where we are pulled different directions as a BS. We are happy that at least the WS is telling us some of the truth but crushed by the continuance of the lies and manipulations. I believe that this is at the heart of the wrecked self esteem that most of us had for some time after D-Day. We blame ourselves for allowing this to happen because we should have known, believed the unbelievable and think we could have stopped the A in its tracks if we would have only listened to our gut. Problem is that we forget that not only was our WS taken over by aliens, they also got infused with the master jedi lying and manipulation skills from the dark side in the process.

At some point in the recovery, you have to demand that it is either RH and complete transparency or you need to start your personal recovery without your WS and find someone who will share the values and ideas promoted by MB to have a truly intimate relationship. You deserve no less. If your WS continues to not be open and transparent in his actions, there is little possibility that you will ever be able to have a complete and successful recovery.

I believe that most WS continue their dishonesty after the end of the A for two reasons: First and foremost, to protect themselves from the embarrassment and shame related to their own dispictable actions of the past. They have to live with themselves and it is hard for them to really bear their soul to you knowing that you should be even more ashamed of them than they are of themselves. Secondly, dishonesty is a habit. Habits are hard to break. Through their A they have compartmentalized their lives to an extent that it made it possible for them to live two seperate lives. They have justified their actions to themselves and maybe to others. Problem is that there is no rationalization or justification for their actions. If they had a loveless marriage or not enough sex or needed attention and their spouse could not fill those needs, there is a resolution if counseling and marriage building practices don't work...divorce. Then they could have openly gone out and found someone who could give them what they needed. Instead, they took the cowardly approach and chose to get their needs met outside of the marriage under the cover of secrecy. It is pretty easy to find your soul mate if you don't have to worry about the day to day issues with getting kids where they need to be, making dinner, working for a living and paying your bills. When they found that partner, they brought that person into your life and invaded your personal space and you didn't even know about it and maybe didn't even suspect it. Then they had to cover that choice with a myriad of lies, rationalizations and justifications until the A was exposed to the light of day. And then they wonder why we don't trust them?

My advice to you is to concentrate first on your personal recovery. Recovery is possible but may or may not be worth the personal costs to you. You need to make sure that your health issues are resolved. Get your life back on track. Set some boundaries with your WS and enforce them. RH should be a deal killer. If he refuses to comply with a complete RH policy and do his part in helping you heal...kick him to the curb. You deserve better and it is up to him to contribute to this process. I hope and pray that a marital recovery is possible for you. Myself, the Wonderings, Bob Pure, Melody are all examples that the MB principles promoted here do work and a marital relationship post affair that is much more intimate and rewarding is possible but it is a hard road that takes a lot of work. Some just don't have that in them and there is nothing wrong with those who chose to end the relationship and start back from the ground level. If you take care of your personal recovery first and let your WS make a decision either to start contributing to the rebuilding process or you will move forward without him, you will have less stress, the nightmares will eventually subside and you will regain your self esteem because you were a survivor....no matter what blows were delivered your way, you perservered and made the best of the cards you were dealt.

NT

Thank you nottoday! I feel so strongly about honesty and this is affecting my self-esteem. It is changing who I am inside forever.

My WH says he’s trying to be honest with me. I don’t understand the word “trying”. Isn’t it honest or dishonest? He says he is trying to remember things so he can answer my questions.

He is otherwise being everything a woman could want in a H. We do our EN each week for our MC session. We have a hard time getting through the LB’s, because nothing ever changes and I end up feeling angry.

Things seem wonderful as long as we don’t talk about the A. The problem is that I try to hold everything inside. It comes out again in a few days as LB’s. I feel like I'm on an emotional roller coaster ride and I want it to end.

I don’t understand why it’s always the BS that has to do all the work and make sure we don’t LB the WS! In fact, I’ve never gotten any information that way. It was only when I’ve gotten angry that he has told me things.

I have thought about moving on many times. My health keeps holding me back. I do love him very much and want to make sure I’ve given our M every chance. I know it could be great if he would just be honest about the past.

If I help my WH get on MB do you think someone could set him straight about honesty? I don’t want him to read my posts yet. He is computer illiterate but may figure out who I am if he read this. What do the experienced MB members think about this?

I’m at the end of my rope! H was talking about the A but now won’t say anything about it. When he was talking it started out all lies then, when I wouldn’t buy that story, he would change it. He’s lied to me about the A so much over the last 10 months. He says now he is telling me the truth (for the 20th time). How will I know which story is the truth? Dumb question I know…I will never know for sure when it’s the truth except my gut feeling. I believe the A is over and there has been no contact.

We have been going through MC with Jennifer Harley Chalmers for the last few months. The problem is that I’m still stuck in the beginning. The stage where I need to know what happened. I still don’t have even the basics because of all the lies he told me. I have a very difficult time with the ENs stuff. The only emotional need I have or care about right now is honesty.

H says he wants me to know everything and he will tell me. When??? How long can I or should I wait?

I’m getting mixed signals from him. He seems so remorseful. My strong, macho H now breaks down in tears for no reason. This of course makes me feel guilty. H has become depressed and is on ADs. I am on ADs also. He is very honest and open about current things but refuses to talk about the A. Last night he told me it’s because he sees how hurt I get when we talk about it. Oh Pleeeease. I tried explaining that not talking about it makes me feel that we will never have radical honesty and openness needed to make our marriage work.

Our marriage could be so beautiful right now if he would have just answered my questions truthfully in the beginning. Instead, I feel myself becoming more and more distant from him emotionally. I feel I’m in a daze and just going through the motions of being in a marriage, like I’m following a script that Jennifer wrote for me. She said I would start to feel better in time. The real me is crying inside and very unhappy. It’s not getting better, it’s getting worse for me.

Because I can’t move on without the truth about the A, is there any reason to continue with MC? Am I doing something wrong?

Will he come here and talk to us?

tw, I wonder if he has become SCARED about answering your questions and has simply shut down? Whenever his answers don't add up, you have lambasted him so he is now scared that no matter what he says, he is going to catch ******, you will never believe it and this will just NEVER END. He may feel that it is now hopeless. You are grilling him like a hostile defense witness, aren't you?

Thank you ML. If I’m doing something wrong, I need to know. I don’t think I have been grilling him but there are two sides to every story. Maybe he does feel this way. We haven’t talked about the A in over 5 or 6 weeks. The last time we talked about it and cleared the air, the following week was the most wonderful week we’ve ever had.

We told Jennifer Chalmers about this in our next MC session. Since we had such dramatic results from this, she thought it would be ok for us to “clear the air” if it’s a planned conversation and we don’t LB.

We’ve never had another “clear the air” session. Things have gone steadily downhill from there.

I’ve been asking him if he would like to post on MB. Since he is computer illiterate, I offered to help him get on MB but didn’t want to know who he is. That way he could get out his feelings. He agreed. I printed out the steps to register for an account and will give it to him when he gets home in a couple of hours.

I have loved this man since I was 16 years old. (I’m 50 now) My love grew stronger every year until D-Day when my reality and nearly my life ended. I hope someone can help us get some of it back.

I should clarify that we haven't talked about the A until I asked last night why.

You asked him and he said NO? What exactly did he say about it?

We planned the "clear the air" session like Jennifer said for a Saturday evening. Something urgent came up so we postponed until Sunday evening. I can't remember exactly what happened then but it was dropped after that. If I ask to reschedule, he changes the subject.

Stay on him, tw!