I am a BW. My question is: Can a WS who shows remorse for having an A be truly remorseful when they can't be radically honest?

I would question the sincerity of his "remorse" if he wasn't willing to be radically honest with me. Radical honesty is a REQUIREMENT for recovery, and you, his victim, cannot recover unless you have the entire truth to your satisfaction.

What is he not being radically honest about?

I need to know how long H had A with OW. My number 1 EN is radical honesty. H changes the subject or answers with "I don't know" or "I can't remember when it started".

His story about the A has changed several times. Each time he promised me he was being honest. I need the truth before I can move on and start to heal.

I'm finding I can't get through the day without reading the posts on MB. The people here on MB are my only support right now. No one knows about my H's A other than OWH. I can't tell my family or involve any of my friends.

H and I talk but I don't see any progress. I feel our R is still at a standstill and it's been eight months.

I don't know where to go from here. Do I give him more time hoping he will tell me the truth? Will he just keep giving me more versions of the story until he arrives at one I'll accept? Am I being demanding, whining or just trying to get my way?

I'm hoping someone else that has gone through this can offer some advice. (And please, be radically honest! I'm so numb I won't even feel the 2x4 if that's what it takes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

tw, we never started recovery in my marriage until my H came clean about the affair. That is the first step. You can't recover as long as he has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy. I would explain to him that this is the first step in recovery and he is causing both of you MORE problems by withholding the truth. You can never be at peace until you know the entire truth. And he will never be at peace either becuase you will continue to ask until he tells you.

And remember, this is all information about your life to which you have a RIGHT to know.

Why not print this letter out and give it to him:

here is the Josephs letter:



"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Dr. Harley:

From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

How an affair should end: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Thank you so much MelodyLane! You don't know how much this means to me right now!

I started to read Joseph's letter but couldn't get through it all because I couldn't control my tears. I'm printing your replies so I can read them as soon as I can pull myself back together. I felt I needed to thank you first.

I need to log out right now. I'll be back later.

tw,

I am three years past D Day with no radical honesty. It has killed our M.

We went to MC last night and the FWW took the same stance she always has that she has been radically honest. I said the only time you tell the truth is when you are admitting to what I have figured out. There is a big difference.

In light of what I know now the last 3 years have been very hurtful. She has used what I didn't know against me at times.

Like Joseph's letter she had all the pieces and I did not. By the time I figured out what was in the section I was missing pieces too she had done things that made it seem as though she was very unremeorseful and unrepentent for the A. Things now she wants to add to the forgiveness pile.

The MC laid it out for her. He said the analogy I would use is like when you break your leg and it isn't healed properly, you have to rebreak it and start over. This hasn't been dealt with properly. She said I don't want to keep going over my mistakes. He asked her if she would rather go over her mistakes or keep making mistakes that are going to end the M? Because the way you have gone about it to this point is a mistake. Your H shouldn't have had to be a detective nor should you have kept hiding the truth.

So there you have it from someone whose leg wasn't set properly. It will cause more resentment on your part.

BTW my FWW couldn't remember anything either. Until I figured it out and told her. Then her memory got better.

The last 2 days since I posted have been earth shattering for me.

First I need to catch up……

Thank you for your support and for letting me know I'm not the only one going through this!

Frognomore, My WH is the same way. He keeps saying he is being honest this time. When I don’t buy that story, it changes then he says he’s finally telling me the truth. The story keeps changing and each time he says he is telling me the truth. This is killing our M also.

MelodyLane, I gave my WH Joseph's letter. He read it and became very quiet. We had several interruptions with family dropping in so we couldn’t talk right away.

The reason I broke out in tears when I started reading Joseph's letter is because I told my WH I needed to put the pieces of the puzzle in place before I could move past his A.

Our MC at the time said, (in front of my H), that I have an active mind and was being irrational for wanting my pieces to my puzzle. She then proceeded to tell me I shouldn’t even try to make sense out of something that doesn’t make sense. I never went back to that MC again.

I guess reading Joseph’s letter and seeing the term “pieces of the puzzle” used was overwhelming for me. It was like someone reached into my heart and soul and felt “my” feelings and put them on paper.

This is what has conspired over the last 2 days….

H and I talked for 8 hrs on Saturday and 6 hrs on Sunday. I thought he was “FINALLY” going to be “Radically Honest” with me. He told me he was so relieved that I now know the truth. Towards the end of our talk on Sunday, he gave yet another version to the story. I was confused so I asked him to explain the discrepancy only the explanation was once again different.

It was like a 2x4 hit me in the head and I woke up. I just lost it at that point and told him to get out and not come back until he can tell the truth.

Right away he said ok, I’ll tell you the truth. I asked him if he really thought I was that stupid. I told him again I wanted him to leave and not come back for at least 2 months. That way he would have time to think about his lying because I’m at the end of my rope and can’t handle one more lie. He kept trying to talk to me but I kept telling him to leave.

He left me a note to call his cell phone but I didn’t. I don’t want to see him or even hear his voice right now. I’m so angry and devastated at this point I was unable to go to work this morning. (I’ve missed 3 out of 4 wks of work.)
I feel so paralyzed and I can’t think. I don’t know what to do!

Sorry for my rambling! I hope some of this is somewhat readable.

TW,

I wish that three years ago I took that stand.

I am currently weighing my options.

You see I am three years past D Day.

Now our MC is saying this wound needs to be reopened for me because my FWW has not been radically honest.

I don't know if I want that pain. The other thing that is being discussed is my FWW's use of her dishonesty to keep doing damage to our M.

Now it seems as though in addition to the A I have other issues that need to be resolved. IE how does she leave triggers in our home for over 2 and a half years after the A because she was dishonest.

This is not what I think I want. I think I wanted this to be placed where it belonged and that was in the past.

For FWS it seems like the past is just time. For a BS it seems as though the past means no longer currently relevant.

I think by being honest it makes the A no longer currently relevant in that aspect. You see there is no more wondering what the FWS is being dishonest about. That can really consume a persons mind.

I think you are on the right track if this is what you need to recover.

It is important to move forward.

I have a hard time believing my FWW about anything because it seems she has had such an easy time not being honest with me.

If he wants your trust he will be honest. If he wants to put that part in the past he will be honest.

I hope for your M's sake he decides to be honest with you.

It seems for me when she finally gave me the pieces I saw more damage that probably wouldn't have happened if I knew the truth.

So there it is for you. No radical honesty = No trust. No radical honest will actually do the opposite of what the FWS hopes to do which is put it in the past. Until it is no longer currently relevant to you there will be a problem. There was only one way for my FWW to do that and it was radical honesty.

tw, would he agree to counsel with Steve Harley and then perhaps get into local marriage counseling? I suspect that lying has been a way of life for him and he has been carrying on a second, secret life for a very long time. He is trying to protect that right now. Discovery means he won't be able to hide it as well. And so far he has been successful in hiding it.

Steve Harley is an exceptional counselor who specializes in infidelity. He won't let your H bullchit him. He costs $185, I think, and does phone counseling. Even if your H would't talk to him at first, SH could assess your situation and guide you out of this mess.

I hate that you have kicked him out on impulse, but I think this can be salvaged with Plan B if you are certain you want to seperate. That being said, much more CALM thinking needs to go into that decision and we can help you with that.

Some food for future thought, tw. He can't stay in contact with the OW if your marriage is to recover. Either him or the OW will have to find another job.

Okay, Honesty is always the best policy. But what about details? I mean, all that is doing is just pouring salt in the wound. Is every single detail about everything really necessary?

NO NO NO and if I forgot to mention it NO.

You need to decide what you want to know. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND NOT ASKING FOR GORY DETAILS.

For me I wanted to know:
When It started.
How it started.
How often they spent time together.
How it ended.
How much money she spent on him.
Where were my kids.
How many times my kids went out with them.(yes they did)
How many times they had SF.(not details just how many times)
Was it protected?

For me it was weird though. There were extenuating circumstances. You see my FWW was supposed to be spending time with her friends and family on that trip. The more time etc she admitted too the less time she spent with those people. So IMVHO my FWW had a vested interest in not telling the truth. Before the trip she wanted to move home to spend time with these people and be close to them. When given the opportunity she chose not to. Every night or day she spent with the OM she couldn't spend with the people she wanted to move back there for.

There were more but as you see no gory details.

Figure out what you need to know to put this in the past.

I know kicking him out was something I did when my emotions were so high. I keep thinking, what did I do? I felt backed into a wall and couldn't stand hearing any more lies and told him I needed a break but he wouldn't stop. I was beginning to shake and he wouldn't stop. That's when I just started telling him to leave. (voice getting louder each time until he finally left hours later.)

I'm calmer now. Last night was the most upset I've been since dday. The OW and her H were friends of ours. There has been NC since she called my H a month after dday to "pick up where they left off". My WH told her it was over and not to call again. We live in the same small town but haven't run into either OW or OWH yet. He has realized the OW is not what he thought she was and now hates her.

We don't know what EN OW met for my H. She is everything my H hates in a woman. I hoping this will come out in MC. I start MC in 2 weeks. H starts 2 wks after that.

Does insurance cover SH counseling sessions? If it's $185 and is covered by ins. I'll check it out.

I guess I should read up on Plan B. for now.

Sher314 and frognomore - I believe the amount of details a BS needs to know varies with each BS. While some BS don't want any details, some my need just certain details where others may need every detail. In my opinion, if you ask for details, you better think about it first. What amount of details do you need to heal? The key word here is "need". I need to know when the A started. I would never heal without this detail. This is the way I see it...If he lies to me about this detail why would he not lie to me in the future? Why not have another A since all he has to do is lie?

I should add, there are a few more details I need but how long it went on is #1. The fact he says he can't remember whether it started in Feb 05 or Aug. 05 tells me a couple of things...

1. He had absolutly no guilt when A started so it was just another day to him.

2. It probably started in 03 or 04 instead of 05 and won't admit to that.

3. He's trying different stories until he comes to one that I will believe.

It depends on the betrayed spouse's personal preferences. Some need to know EVERYTHING, others need to know just the general outline. This is strictly an INDIVIDUAL thing and each BS will have to determine what LEVEL of detail they need for recovery. No one else can make that decision FOR THEM.

tw, I understand COMPLETELY why you tossed him out. I would have done the same thing. He has been gaslighting you for a long time. I think that if he does not tell you the truth, you might consider a Plan B like seperation with radical honesty and counseling being a condition of return. My concern here is that you threw him out while angry rather than having a carefully considered PLAN of seperation. But we have to deal with what we have. Do you plan on letting him come back when you calm down? Or would you consider giving him a Plan B letter?

I don't think that insurance covers counseling with the Harleys, but it might be cheaper than divorce to get a few sessions with him so he can give you a PLAN. He is not one of these typical counselors who take your money so you can listen to yourself bloviate; he is more action oriented and will assess your situation and give you a PLAN. He is not going to waste your time. So, I was thinking it would be helpful to allow him to ASSESS your situation, give you a plan and then you could pick up with a local counselor who is familiar with MB principles.

The details that I am referring to are explicit stuff like...what position did you have sex in... did you say his name during sex...

Am I crazy or is that kind of questioning entirely unnecessary?!

Does anyone have advice on how to deal with this type of questioning?

Again read my NO NO NO NO.

Look at it this way. Every detail you discover will be played over in your head like a movie. Do you really want that going through your head?

Assuming that you know about SF you can pretty much figure that out on your own. I wouldn't recommend thinking about it.

I am going through a very tough time right now based on something my FWW said in MC. I never wanted to think about the SF. I have put that behind me.

When the MC said she did need to be honest with me she yelled at me "what do you want to know the positions we were in?" Now that is in my head. Didn't want it there to be honest with you.

So I would recommend not asking about that. I know some do but I really didn't.

Sher314 - If that's what you need, that's what your Husband should provide. No one else can decide what you need to know but you. It may not be a good idea to press for those types of details but many people need them to move on. It's your call.

Yes, you are crazy because you are not in a position to decide what is or isn't "necessary" for another person to recover. So here is the advice ONCE AGAIN: it is up to the betrayed spouse, and NO ONE ELSE, to decide how much detail they need in order to recover. No one else can decide that for them.

frog, many BS' DO NEED that level of detail or they will imagine MUCH WORSE. The most IMPORTANT thing is the WS is willing to provide them with as much detail as they WANT. That decision always lies with the BS and the WS should be willing to provide it.

Often just that willingness to tell everything, coupled with some general details will suffice, but if it is not, the WS is obligated to oblige the BS. The BS is the BEST judge of what he/she needs to know in order to recover. NO ONE ELSE is qualified to make that decision for them.

Ah I've got it. I thought Sher314 was the BS but is in fact the WS. Well what I said still applies. Whatever the BS needs to know should be truthfully and honestly disclosed.

That fact that my WH can't tell me the most basic thing about his A is very upsetting to me. He keeps saying he can't remember anything other than he thinks it started somewhere between Feb 05 and Aug 05. He says Feb. because there was no snow on the ground. Does he really think I'm that stupid? I think I would remember the exact date I destroyed my marriage.

WH came home just to pick up some clothes last night then left again. I think he was waiting for me to ask him to stay. I can't this time. He said this was a big eye opener for him. Ya, he's said that before too.

I'm having a very hard time with this! I still can't go to work. I've spent my morning so far crying. I just don't want to go through this, but I know I have to or nothing will ever change. If I were to let him come home to soon he will have no reason to change or be radically honest.

WH did agree to talk to Dr. Harley even if not covered by insurance. Should WH contact Dr. Harley or should I? By him initiating contact would prove to me that he is serious.

Thank you all again for getting me through the last 24 hours! I read your replies many times during the day when I feel like giving up. They give me the strength to keep going. Our M could be so beautiful if he would just have the guts to be honest.

tw, that wouldnt hurt for him to call Steve himself. He is a licensed therapist [and is very, very good] and not a doctor. His father is a licensed psychologist and is the one who started Marriage Builders and has the radio show. To find the #, click on counseling center at the link at the top of this page.

I agree with you that nothing will change unless he has motivation to change. You are doing great, so hang in there and don't give up!

Mel,

Sorry you are right. If the BS needs the details of the SF that is up to them. I personally and again personally didn't and don't want that detail.

I hate to even think about it.

So that is why I recommended no. It was hard enough getting the other stuff out of my head.

TW you deserve to get the details you want. You have to know what type of person you are though. Will you be able to move past it if you do find out or if you won't be able to move past it if you don't find out.

I agree about the motivation part too. I waffled too much. I demanded radical honesty but did nothing to motivate her to give it to me.

Thank you frognomore and MelodyLane. I have gotten through another night alone. My WH called me twice during the night. He is staying at our sons house while he is gone. He has a lot of time to think which is good. He hasn't been sleeping or eating though.

One night he drove out and parked in our driveway and sat and looked at our house. He said he walked around the house and noticed light from the TV through the blinds so he knew I was awake. He said knowing he wasn't welcome hit him hard.

I miss him so much. It took everything I had not to ask him to stay. It would have been in a different bedroom, but I know that would have been a mistake. I have to show him I really mean business this time. I refuse to even try to rebuild our M if the foundation is based on lies.

He asked me if I would call and set up appt. with SH. I would rather he did, but we both agreed I would make the first appt. Is it better for the first session be joint MC or IC? I'm going to call now. Wish me/us luck?

bigkahuna and Sher314 - I'm so sorry! I forgot to thank you for your replies here. Please forgive me.

Sher314 - I'm assuming you are a WS. It would be great to get another perspective from WS. Maybe it would help me to try and understand my WH and what he is/was thinking and feeling.

It’s been about a month since I posted last. WH and I have been in MC with Jennifer Harley-Chalmers. A few days before starting MC I had told my WH to leave. JHC asked me to let him move back in for the MC. I agreed.

It has helped in some ways, but I still strongly disagree with moving on and not talking about the past. I tried and I just can’t do it. No matter what nice things my H says or does, it all gets filtered through what he has done to me. Why should I trust someone that can’t be honest with me about the past?

I did find out a few days ago that my WH was still lying to me just before I told him to leave last month. I’m following my instincts from now on. WH did come clean on a few things, but still can’t remember when the A started. I thanked my H for the things I felt were the truth and I’ve been able to put them to rest. Each thing I felt he answered truthfully seemed like a large weight lifted off me. When I know he lied, the weight came down on me 10-fold.

I believe the A went on for a long time. First the EA then the PA.

He told me he had so much guilt after the first time of SF with the OW. If this is true, wouldn’t he have had a tough day at work since they were together before he went to work? I can’t help but think that he didn’t have much guilt after being with OW for the first time. He can’t remember if it was a weekday or weekend. If the first time was on a weekend, he would have had to face me for the day. I just don’t understand why he can’t remember!!! I would like to hear from a WS out there that could explain this to me!

This is haunting me. Not so much the length of time, but the lying. I have tremendous nightmares every night and they are getting worse.

I don’t know if I have the strength to continue. My health is failing and I may not have a job much longer. The stress around me is too much and I can’t escape from it because it’s out of my control.

I’m at a very low point right now. I need the pain to stop and I don’t know what to do. I've called a crisis line but they were no help.

If you look at any of my posts, you will see that I am a champion for the radical honesty cause and believe that a successful recovery without complete and radical honesty is impossible. After you get through the fog issues and both spouses are committed to rebuilding the relationship, radical honesty is fairly easy to POJA but harder to enforce consistently. There is a six of one, half a dozen of the other mentality with all of us where we are pulled different directions as a BS. We are happy that at least the WS is telling us some of the truth but crushed by the continuance of the lies and manipulations. I believe that this is at the heart of the wrecked self esteem that most of us had for some time after D-Day. We blame ourselves for allowing this to happen because we should have known, believed the unbelievable and think we could have stopped the A in its tracks if we would have only listened to our gut. Problem is that we forget that not only was our WS taken over by aliens, they also got infused with the master jedi lying and manipulation skills from the dark side in the process.

At some point in the recovery, you have to demand that it is either RH and complete transparency or you need to start your personal recovery without your WS and find someone who will share the values and ideas promoted by MB to have a truly intimate relationship. You deserve no less. If your WS continues to not be open and transparent in his actions, there is little possibility that you will ever be able to have a complete and successful recovery.

I believe that most WS continue their dishonesty after the end of the A for two reasons: First and foremost, to protect themselves from the embarrassment and shame related to their own dispictable actions of the past. They have to live with themselves and it is hard for them to really bear their soul to you knowing that you should be even more ashamed of them than they are of themselves. Secondly, dishonesty is a habit. Habits are hard to break. Through their A they have compartmentalized their lives to an extent that it made it possible for them to live two seperate lives. They have justified their actions to themselves and maybe to others. Problem is that there is no rationalization or justification for their actions. If they had a loveless marriage or not enough sex or needed attention and their spouse could not fill those needs, there is a resolution if counseling and marriage building practices don't work...divorce. Then they could have openly gone out and found someone who could give them what they needed. Instead, they took the cowardly approach and chose to get their needs met outside of the marriage under the cover of secrecy. It is pretty easy to find your soul mate if you don't have to worry about the day to day issues with getting kids where they need to be, making dinner, working for a living and paying your bills. When they found that partner, they brought that person into your life and invaded your personal space and you didn't even know about it and maybe didn't even suspect it. Then they had to cover that choice with a myriad of lies, rationalizations and justifications until the A was exposed to the light of day. And then they wonder why we don't trust them?

My advice to you is to concentrate first on your personal recovery. Recovery is possible but may or may not be worth the personal costs to you. You need to make sure that your health issues are resolved. Get your life back on track. Set some boundaries with your WS and enforce them. RH should be a deal killer. If he refuses to comply with a complete RH policy and do his part in helping you heal...kick him to the curb. You deserve better and it is up to him to contribute to this process. I hope and pray that a marital recovery is possible for you. Myself, the Wonderings, Bob Pure, Melody are all examples that the MB principles promoted here do work and a marital relationship post affair that is much more intimate and rewarding is possible but it is a hard road that takes a lot of work. Some just don't have that in them and there is nothing wrong with those who chose to end the relationship and start back from the ground level. If you take care of your personal recovery first and let your WS make a decision either to start contributing to the rebuilding process or you will move forward without him, you will have less stress, the nightmares will eventually subside and you will regain your self esteem because you were a survivor....no matter what blows were delivered your way, you perservered and made the best of the cards you were dealt.

NT

Thank you nottoday! I feel so strongly about honesty and this is affecting my self-esteem. It is changing who I am inside forever.

My WH says he’s trying to be honest with me. I don’t understand the word “trying”. Isn’t it honest or dishonest? He says he is trying to remember things so he can answer my questions.

He is otherwise being everything a woman could want in a H. We do our EN each week for our MC session. We have a hard time getting through the LB’s, because nothing ever changes and I end up feeling angry.

Things seem wonderful as long as we don’t talk about the A. The problem is that I try to hold everything inside. It comes out again in a few days as LB’s. I feel like I'm on an emotional roller coaster ride and I want it to end.

I don’t understand why it’s always the BS that has to do all the work and make sure we don’t LB the WS! In fact, I’ve never gotten any information that way. It was only when I’ve gotten angry that he has told me things.

I have thought about moving on many times. My health keeps holding me back. I do love him very much and want to make sure I’ve given our M every chance. I know it could be great if he would just be honest about the past.

If I help my WH get on MB do you think someone could set him straight about honesty? I don’t want him to read my posts yet. He is computer illiterate but may figure out who I am if he read this. What do the experienced MB members think about this?

I’m at the end of my rope! H was talking about the A but now won’t say anything about it. When he was talking it started out all lies then, when I wouldn’t buy that story, he would change it. He’s lied to me about the A so much over the last 10 months. He says now he is telling me the truth (for the 20th time). How will I know which story is the truth? Dumb question I know…I will never know for sure when it’s the truth except my gut feeling. I believe the A is over and there has been no contact.

We have been going through MC with Jennifer Harley Chalmers for the last few months. The problem is that I’m still stuck in the beginning. The stage where I need to know what happened. I still don’t have even the basics because of all the lies he told me. I have a very difficult time with the ENs stuff. The only emotional need I have or care about right now is honesty.

H says he wants me to know everything and he will tell me. When??? How long can I or should I wait?

I’m getting mixed signals from him. He seems so remorseful. My strong, macho H now breaks down in tears for no reason. This of course makes me feel guilty. H has become depressed and is on ADs. I am on ADs also. He is very honest and open about current things but refuses to talk about the A. Last night he told me it’s because he sees how hurt I get when we talk about it. Oh Pleeeease. I tried explaining that not talking about it makes me feel that we will never have radical honesty and openness needed to make our marriage work.

Our marriage could be so beautiful right now if he would have just answered my questions truthfully in the beginning. Instead, I feel myself becoming more and more distant from him emotionally. I feel I’m in a daze and just going through the motions of being in a marriage, like I’m following a script that Jennifer wrote for me. She said I would start to feel better in time. The real me is crying inside and very unhappy. It’s not getting better, it’s getting worse for me.

Because I can’t move on without the truth about the A, is there any reason to continue with MC? Am I doing something wrong?

Will he come here and talk to us?

tw, I wonder if he has become SCARED about answering your questions and has simply shut down? Whenever his answers don't add up, you have lambasted him so he is now scared that no matter what he says, he is going to catch ******, you will never believe it and this will just NEVER END. He may feel that it is now hopeless. You are grilling him like a hostile defense witness, aren't you?

Thank you ML. If I’m doing something wrong, I need to know. I don’t think I have been grilling him but there are two sides to every story. Maybe he does feel this way. We haven’t talked about the A in over 5 or 6 weeks. The last time we talked about it and cleared the air, the following week was the most wonderful week we’ve ever had.

We told Jennifer Chalmers about this in our next MC session. Since we had such dramatic results from this, she thought it would be ok for us to “clear the air” if it’s a planned conversation and we don’t LB.

We’ve never had another “clear the air” session. Things have gone steadily downhill from there.

I’ve been asking him if he would like to post on MB. Since he is computer illiterate, I offered to help him get on MB but didn’t want to know who he is. That way he could get out his feelings. He agreed. I printed out the steps to register for an account and will give it to him when he gets home in a couple of hours.

I have loved this man since I was 16 years old. (I’m 50 now) My love grew stronger every year until D-Day when my reality and nearly my life ended. I hope someone can help us get some of it back.

I should clarify that we haven't talked about the A until I asked last night why.

You asked him and he said NO? What exactly did he say about it?

We planned the "clear the air" session like Jennifer said for a Saturday evening. Something urgent came up so we postponed until Sunday evening. I can't remember exactly what happened then but it was dropped after that. If I ask to reschedule, he changes the subject.

Stay on him, tw!

H is getting off work soon. I left a voice msg. letting him know I will help him get on MB as soon as he gets home. The last time we tried it didn't work. Hopefully we will have better luck tonight.

I just have a minute before I go to work. My H got on MB last night and posted. I’m hoping he will get lots of support and understanding because he is really hurting right now. This could make all the difference, not only in our marriage, but in helping him get back some self esteem. It would be ideal if some FWSs would post to him because they can see his side of things and I think he would open up more.

Melody Lane…since I don’t know who he is on MB, you may be able to find him. Your words helped me and I believe they would also help him. I hope I’m not being rude. The only thing I know is my H is not a very good typist and Believer was the first person that responded to his post. Thank you Believer.

I asked my H if he felt I was, as Melody Lane said, “grilling him like a hostile defense witness”. He said sometimes. I then asked him if this is why he doesn’t want to talk and have our “clear the air” talk. H told me it’s because he feels so guilty for what he has done to me. He sees how much it has crushed me and destroyed our life.

So now, I’m going to try very, very hard not to bring it up on my own. I will talk to Jennifer Harley Chalmers and let her handle it. Isn’t it going to get harder to talk about as time goes on? I feel the wall building higher between us and the OW is on his side of the wall. I don’t want to be just roommates anymore. This is what we’ve been for the last 4 or 5 years.

Thank you all for what you do here! I need to go to work now but will check back this evening.

WH called me at work the other day and was very upset. OWs son just got a job where my H works. What is the chance of this happening in a large town? OW will be very happy about this.

This is upsetting to both H and I because OW has her children involved. Daughter to help call men and son to do whatever else. We haven't figured out yet what all the OW son’s roles are in her schemes. We do know he is into many bad things and has some not-so-nice friends.

I had some of the worst nightmares last night. They seem to be getting more violent. Can’t escape thoughts of the OW and A even when I go to sleep. Has anyone else ever had this problem?

I am so frustrated! Conversation with WH very generic this evening. I just don’t understand. Why can’t he just come clean about the A so I/we can start to heal? Is there a FWS out there that can help explain it to me?

I can give you my experiences tw

It was overwhelming fear that if I told my H ALL the details he would loath me and want to end the M. Self worth and confidence were zero and I felt just like dying.

I suspect that your H feels the same but cannot admit it and your previous thoughts on the length and/or perhaps earlier A may be spot on. If not that then the details he feels will push you away.

Like I did, he has forgotten you want to work to save the M but need to know what to forgive eventually and what you need to understand. he just wants it all to go away is my guess

Thank you aussieswife. I try to reassure him that I love him and want our M to work. I’m sure the story I have in my head is much worse than what actually happened...or is it?

WH self-esteem is zero right now also so I’m trying not to bring up the A. We both just want it all to go away but we know it won’t until he is honest with me.

The fact that he can’t remember when the A started is beyond my comprehension and understanding. He can’t remember if there was snow on the ground or if there were leaves on the trees. Wouldn’t anyone remember at least the month they were unfaithful for the first time after a 30 yr marriage?

the FOG is really thick & it feels to many as
so romantic, no concerns, no worries, no conscience, no notice of anything outside it, so a lot is NOT thought about.

I suspect from my own experience that the dates though may be more guilt related, like it started on or near an important date, birthday, anniversary etc. You block that out of your mind and deny it even to yourself.

Its part of the heart of an affair, self deception. You can't lie well to others until you lie well to yourself first.

As for being worst than you think, what can be worse than an affair and all it involves? After all its only the details, the nuts & bolts so to speak, you already KNOW he cheated. However its the not knowing the details which drove my H up the wall. I know now he needed to put the actions and times into perspective for HIM, nothing really to do with me if you understand what I'm saying. I'm assuming its much the same for you.

tw,
I will give you radical honesty here.

Part of the problem here is YOUR view that you HAVE to have (what you call) radical honesty to "move on". As long as you are not open to moving on in any other way, then of course you won't move on. The FACTS are that you are CHOOSING not to move on.

It seems to me that you go to your husband and ask for honesty and then when he gives you an answer, you are basically telling him "don't tell me that".

Now.. There IS another way to move this marriage forward.
It is called LETTING GO. Let go of this constant so called need (it is only a preference, not a need) for you to have to know all these endless details.

YOU say he is remorseful. YOU say the affair is over.
IF the affair is over and IF he is remorseful and if he is living the life of a good and faithful husband, then why not YOU put this behind you once and for all. Who cares if he can't remember what month it started? Maybe he can remember AND maybe he can't. It is NOT worth the time YOU ARE WASTING.

You CAN be perfectly happy and have a GREAT relationship without knowing all these details EVEN if you feel he has held some things back. LET IT GO. FORGIVE. LIVE IN THE PRESENT..... BE GLAD THE AFFAIR IS OVER.

As long as you and others on here are STUCK on the belief that YOUR version of radical honesty is the ONLY way to a recovered and happy marriage, then you are stuck in the bondage of that belief. You want to change your feelings about something, then change your belief.

You CAN (and have the power) to put this behind you by dropping all these details you have told yourself that you "need" (it's only a preference) to know. You can be perfectly fine and perfectly happy and your marriage can survive wonderfully without ever knowing another detail about this PAST affair.

If not, then you are leaving yourself only two options.(IF he never comes to a point that you feel he is radically honest)
Being unhappy that you "feel" you didn't get the whole truth OR leaving the marriage because of it.

*************EDIT******************

Honesty is a critical element of recovery or there will be no recovery. But you already know this because you are experiencing it first hand. As you well know, you were not able to recover because your husband would not tell you the truth, not becuase someone TOLD YOU that you couldn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Stick to what the Dr. Harley says and what you KNOW. You will not recover until you know the truth. There will be never be any trust as long as your H has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy.

Here is what Dr. Willard Harley says about honesty, and nowhere does he say to withhold details the WS feels are too damaging:
1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

From:

Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

As any betrayed spouse who has EVER been through recovery knows, this is pure unadulterated ****. What you are saying is that RADICAL HONESTY is the real problem here instead of LACK of honesty. What nonsense. IN REALITY, the BS is never happy UNTIL they have all the details ABOUT THEIR OWN LIFE, to their satisfaction. They can never TRUST without the truth, which means recovery never happens. The withholding of details about ONE'S OWN LIFE is a grievous assault, a lie by ommission, that PRECLUDES recovery. Withholding facts is to COMPOUND THE CRIME, not alleviate it. It is adding LYING to the already existing assault, the affair.

KMF... there may be a place for your thinking with some people... but it is not for this poster. You seem to consider yourself some type of big philosophical master... yet, your posts are coming across as more ridiculous than those that feel there is but one way to do things. In your attempt to say that this is all about perceptions... you are being far too dogmatic with your own views. I believe that a BS should get to decide what is in their best interests. If they can recover without the intimate details of things... IMHO, they will be better off. But that is my opinion... you have shared yours with this poster, as have others... so why not back off. It appears as though you have an agenda here to use WS thinking that ... the past is in the past, it doesn't mean anything now, keep our eyes forward and NEVER look back.... Well, for some that looking back is important. It helps them make decisions as to how they want to direct their present and future. It may help them weigh their choices a bit more freely.

Dear TW ... this is for YOU to understand that YOU have legitimate needs !!!!!!!!!



the facts are that you have a need to know what happened before you decide if you want to remain married under the circumstances

this is your choice to make
and if another poster chooses to insult your choice, it tells you much about that poster


what you are saying is "Don't lie to me any more I cannot take it."

most of us understand what this dynamic is

but not all of us



yes, that IS a valid choice
but if it is not a choice that YOU can live with, then by all means do not choose to live with doubts and inconsistencies

we trust YOU to know how much detail YOU need to live in your own marriage


it is worth the time if it is eating into your ability to trust what he says TODAY knowing he still has the capacity to lie about his past


how does this feel TW to be told that your legitimate need for dignity and honesty in your own life is wrong?

To me, it feels like someone promoting their own values while infering that yours are wrong ... but, how does it feel to you?


This is more than a matter of "belief"
this is a matter of personal values

remember
"honesty & openness" is listed on Harley's site as an emotional need
if it is high on your list
it behooves you to respect that EN

what you have here is another poster telling you to abandon one of YOUR important ENs
because it is not high on his list


remember

this is NOT a "belief"
it is an EN


EMOTIONAL NEED for honesty and openness is nothing to be ashamed of


this is TRUE
if you are a person who does not have openness and honesty high on your list for ENs


if openness and honesty are one of your standards for a healthy marriage

YOU will be miserable without it

Pep

Polygraph. $600 money well spent.

HONESTY is on the EN list HERE [color:"red"] <~~~ click this link [/color]

More from Dr. Harley on honesty:

"You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage. "


From:Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Now, back to the original question:


Remorse is deep regret or guilt ... in other words ... it is a feeling the WS has, therefore subjective

it is IMPOSSIBLE to measure another persons feelings of remorse

what you can measure and look toward are actions that demonstrate remorse and willingness to

[color:"red"]do whatever it takes for as long as it takes [/color]

to make the marriage whole

sooooooooooo
you have a (common) senario where
1. there are feelings of remorse (H feels badly for what he did)

2. there is a lack of willingness to do "whatever it takes"

this is probably fear based that if you knew what he knows about his affair, you'd choose to leave him

It is my OPINION ... that in circumstanses such as these

qualified pro-marriage counseling sessions are probably what it will take to coax your WH to be brave enough to do what needs to be done

one of my past sig lines was:

We judge ourselves by our intent.
Others judge us by our behavior.

and that is what is happening here

what a former WS needs to acknowledge is ~~~> we BS are no longer impressed by the WS's "intent" ... we need actions to show proof of intent


Pep

****edit**** We have another case of a person defending radical honesty, but not really liking it when another person is radically honest. No one is insulting her choice. ******edit*********



That may be what she is saying and it may not be.*************edit*****************




****edit***** I am here to help her save her marriage. If helping her to save her marriage is doing what I suggest, then that is what I want. If she wants to keep pursuing radical honesty, then that is fine by me. I am for what works.********edit*********** I would rather stay open to other options in saving a marriage. ******edit**********. .




He will ALWAYS have the capacity to lie. Harley says that we should NOT trust our spouse and the sooner we realize that the better. NO?






*******************edit***********.

Trying to pressure and force her husband into radical honesty doesn't seem to be working very well to me. He DOES have a part in this marriage too. You are sadly mistaken if you really believe that she can't save this marriage because of this problem. It REALLY is only a personal preference that she wants radical honesty from him. It is NOT a "need". Do you know the difference? It is only a preference. No more, no less. I do understand what Harley is saying about needs. However. The facts are that we CAN live and survive without those "needs". ********edit************


***************edit***************

Honesty and Openness


Most of us want an honest relationship with our spouse. But some people have a need for honesty and openness -- it gives them a sense of security and helps them become emotionally bonded to the one who meets that need.
Those with a need for honesty and openness want accurate information about their spouses' thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities and plans for the future.

If their spouse does not provide honest and open communication, trust is undermined and the feelings of security can eventually be destroyed. They cannot trust the signals that are being sent and feel they have no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting, they feel off balance; instead of growing together, they feel as if they are growing apart.

Honesty and openness helps build compatibility in marriage. When you and your spouse openly reveal the facts of your past, your present activities, and your plans for the future, you are able to make intelligent decisions that take each other's feelings into account. And that's how you create compatibility -- by making decisions that work well for both of you simultaneously.

But aside from the practical considerations of honesty and openness, those with this need feel happy and fulfilled when their spouses reveal their most private thoughts to them, and very frustrated when they are hidden. That reaction is evidence of an emotional need, and if that is the way you feel, include honesty and openness as one of your most important emotional needs.

Post deleted by MelodyLane

Here is what Dr. Willard Harley says about honesty:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

"You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage. "

From:

Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Key takeaway is this statement, Dr. Harley: " But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile. "

this is a situation where

"principles above personalities"

should be the guide

of course a post-affair marriage can exist with the betrayed spouse feeling vulnerable and insecure

and unloved

it's possible, yes it is

and if a betrayed spouse has compelling reasons to accept such a situation because it is the better of two undesirable choices, I do understand

the fact remains

some betrayed spouses do not need to accept a half-recovered marriage for financial or other reasons

some betrayed spouses choose to aim to a higher standard of intimacy than others

principles above personalities

Pep

I haven’t posted in a while because I had to take care of some health issues. I’m back now so I’ll put in my 2 cents worth.

First I would like to thank you for all the responses and opinions! It just shows what works for one person or couple may not work for another.

I can only speak for me and what I “need” to move on. In my case, honesty isn’t a perception; it is a “need”. I’ve always been honest with my H. Why wouldn’t I expect the same respect in return? Radical Honesty is my number one EN. There are very few things I’m sure of at this point in my life but the one thing that is clear is the fact that I will never be happy without total honesty.

IMHO, without radical honesty, what kind of foundation do you have to build the rest of your marriage on?

As I mentioned before, my H is posting on MB too. He was shook up for a couple of days after reading his thread. I’m hoping it wasn’t negative because that won’t help our marriage.

My H and I talked about past relationships in our last scheduled talk. I thanked him for being honest. We are going to talk again tonight.

I only have a minute but wanted to give you an update about our scheduled talk last night.

H and I talked for 3 or 4 hours. We didn’t get very far in our conversation but I think it went well. My gut feeling told me H was being honest. Jennifer wants him to think before he speaks and I have to be patient and allow the “silence” between his sentences. This is hard for me sometimes, but I can do it if it means him telling the truth. One day at a time.

tw, I didnt realize that I interrupted my H so much until our old MC told me to sit there and shut up! LOL It really changed how my H expressed himself when I wasn't finishing his thoughts or rapid firing follow up questions. It sounds like you are making progress! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Aussieswife, I want to thank you for the insight from a WS point of view. I’ve been thinking about everything you said and it helped me gain some perspective. If you don’t mind, I may have other questions for you just to get the WS’s point of view.

As I stated in earlier posts, my H and I both post here but are keeping each others identity secret from each other for now. I believe my H mentioned that you responded to his thread. Thank You! I know he wanted to hear from another WS.

I wish more WS’s would post on MB’s. I’m sure it’s the fear of being “beat up” along with guilt that scares many away. IMHO, the WS’s have so much to offer in helping the BS understand.

Pepperband, it appears that you have the same thoughts and feelings about honesty and standards in a marriage as I do. Your posts helped me get through another day.

Melodylane, I feel like you completely understand me and/or the BS’s feelings. Most importantly, you are able to put those feelings into words. You know the right thing to say, whether it is a 2x4 or words of hope or comfort. Thank You!

H and I talked again last night. It went well but then ended badly. It was my fault. H said something and I felt he was intentionally avoiding the subject. I became angry, walked away and went to bed without saying another word. If I would have opened my mouth there would have been LB’s all over the place.

We are going to talk later today but we both decided to stop if either one of us starts to feel upset, overwhelmed, angry or whatever. I’m going to write down any questions I have. If we aren’t able to discuss it we will mark it to bring up in a different scheduled talk.

The credit card statements haven’t come yet. About every other week we get 24 envelopes from them with the exact form letter in each. The only difference is the month and year we are requesting. They said it could take up to a month to get them.

I’m so tired. I need a break from the thoughts of the A but don’t know how to get it. The nightmares continue every night.

Yesterday, Feb. 14th was one year anniversary of D-Day. I’m not dealing with it very well.

FWH and I didn’t talk much yesterday. I asked a question but as usual, the conversation went in a different direction which goes something like this…..He said he loves me and wants to spend the rest of his life with me and he is being honest with me now, etc., etc.

After one hour, I gave up and started watching a movie while H went to sleep. I was so angry inside, I couldn’t go to sleep for a couple of hours.

Tonight, H had to help our son move some things to their new house so we won’t see much of each other tonight.

H has been working so hard to become a better person and H to me. He does so many nice things for me and would wait on me hand and foot if I let him. Why doesn’t this mean anything to me?

I’m thinking seriously about quitting MC. Why spend the money if it’s not helping? It’s been a year now and I don’t feel any better about our M. Why? Am I expecting too much?

are you on anti-depressant?

Yes. The doctor raised the dosage because of what I'm going through.

do you feel level?

If you mean feeling the affect of the higher dozage, yes. The doctor said there is only so much the meds can do for me right now. Time will have to do its part too.

It's just so painful yet.

What do you do for fun?
(don't say MB)

Well you see, I have all these pieces from many puzzles and no idea what the picture looks like. (From Joseph’s Letter).

This has been my life for the last 367 days. I did laugh once in the last year. It was when I read your post about wife-land vs. turd-land. That was great!

H called to get statements for another credit card but was told they charge $25/hour and it would take many, many hours. They said they would have to pull them from the archives month by month and find ours manually from all their customers statements. Strange.

It looks like I’ll never know the truth about that credit card.

Our conversations are still very generic, mostly about work. He wants to limit our conversations to 1 hour. So every time we talk, I get an hour of “I’m being honest with you now but you don’t believe me.” “I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you”. I’m beginning to hate those words. We don’t get anywhere. I’m still at square one.

Is this normal? Has anyone else had this problem?

I haven’t posted in a while because we had to put our dog down. She was very special and our entire family feels her loss deeply.

I realize we are both grieving over the loss of our dog, but it seems the silence between us is still growing.

Does anyone else go through months of feeling their R isn’t improving? Is it me? Was the betrayal too great and I won’t ever be able to get past it?

Sometimes I feel that we are close. Other times I look at him and remember how little he valued our M and my life.

Tonight is our MC session with Jennifer. I need advice on whether I should continue MC.

Running out of hope.

sorry about the beloved dog ....

are you on anti-depressants?

Yes I am on ADs.

H sees progress but I don’t feel any progress. It seems he judges how things are going between us by my need to clear the air or ask a question. If we go for 2 weeks not mentioning the A, he thinks I’m happy and everything is fine.

Do other couples go through this?

[color:"red"]
" Do other couples go through this? "
[/color]

[color:"purple"] ... without a doubt!

We did ....

Pep [/color]

Pep, how did you get through this uncomfortable “pretending” stage? I don’t feel honest pretending I’m happy just to meet his EN’s. I end up stuffing all my feelings inside and not talking about them. I don’t understand how this is going to help our R.

I feel so phony and I don’t like that feeling. While at work I usually don’t have much time to think about the A. On my way home I have time to think and start to feel angry and like I’m second best.

I journaled
I walked ... a LOT
I was eaten up by repressed anger (lol)
I prayed
I made mad-crazy-monkey love with H ... as if I was gonna "take it out on his flesh"
I treated myself to nice things
I went to talk therapy
I went to Al anon meetings
I played with my kids
I started fights with H

..... you know, the usual <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

this was before MB

YOU have a support group

and that is grand

Pep

eventually ... this will fade

I think I had my last really bad day ... (guessing) maybe 4-5 years ago ????

Al anon? I thought that was a support group for spouses of alcoholics?

I’m doing similar things.

I journal.
I pray.
I read everything I can on MB.
I try meeting H’s EN’s.
We MC with Jennifer Harley Chalmers.
I play with the grandchildren when I can.
Anger is consuming me.
I withdraw.
I work longer hours.
I have high stress daily. (job, family, health)
Nightmares every night.
I live in fear daily of OW. (Based on fact, I’m not delusional)
I’m trying to work on me.
I’m trying to do things I used to enjoy, like sewing. Failing so far.
I’m trying to think straight and put thoughts into words. Failing after reading my posts.
Trying to figure out who the he)) I’m married to.

Without the support here on MB, I don’t know where I would be right now.

Pep, let me know about Al anon. Thanks so much for your support!

It’s been a few weeks since I’ve posted. We have been busy working on our business taxes. I thought once those where done, H and I would start talking but very little has changed. My father came to stay with us for a week so it was difficult to talk then.

H and I went for a walk and started talking about the A but only had time to basically bring up a question. No time for answers. H felt better, but I felt more frustrated and angry. Nothing gets solved.

Last week on our way home, we saw OW in her new car. A car my H indirectly paid for. I wasn’t sure how to read the look on his face, but it upset me when I saw her very ugly face and remembered that he found her more appealing than me. It makes me want to vomit.

I feel like he wants to keep the secret life he had with OW a secret. He still insists the A started in June 05. I know it’s not true. The first time he was with OW, he said he was wearing a sweatshirt. H wears just a sweatshirt when others are wearing heavy coats. He only wears a light coat all winter. The entire spring of 2005 was warmer than usual. I downloaded the daily weather and put it in a spreadsheet. The night temps in June 05 were in the 60’s and lower 70’s. A sweatshirt? No way!!!

MC with Jennifer wasn’t helping me at all so I told H that he will have to continue without me. He hasn’t mentioned it since so I’m thinking he may have quit also.

I don’t know what to do. I feel so used. Not only from my H’s A, but mostly now because he won’t come clean. I get a piece of the puzzle maybe every month. A few months later, that piece of the puzzle changes. Every day we don’t solve the A issues, I feel like I’m being stabbed over and over. I have no one to talk to.

Each day I need to talk myself into a reason to live another day. I’m running out of reasons.

troubled.....how are you doing? i am praying for you.

Thanks nikko for your response. I guess I’m getting close to giving up. I couldn’t even go to our granddaughters birthday party last night.

Our situation must be different than anyone else by the lack of responses. I’m so numb it’s hard to put my feelings into words.

Troubled,

I have been really busy. To be honest your Sitch is almost exactly like mine.

I got pieces every month or so for almost 3 and a half years.

Very similar like the FWW felt entitled to keep a part of her life during our M a secret. We were married at the time. YOu weren't too embarrassed to do it why have the embarassment now.

Eventually I finally gave up. Told her it was cruel the way it kept coming out little by little. How once I found a new detail it made me rethink the puzzle and realize the one truth she just told me made me realize she lied about 8 other things.

It was crazy. Finally I quit the M. I told her and the MC I was done. I said I would wait until after the holidays then I wanted a D.

She could keep her secret but it would cost her the M. She was fine with that. Until the following week at MC when I said ok so lets get to the D counseling part here.

She thought just like the other hundreds of times I was kidding.

So I said regarding cutody I will shoot for at least 50% and I started talking about my seperation plan. Wow she woke up.

Finally the truth came out and we are in recovery.

Bottom line if you think you need the truth to recover and he won't give it to you, you will never recover.

I am living proof. Finally we are in recovery. I was right the truth sat me free. She was wrong I couldn't move on without the truth. It almost cost us our M.

Good luck. I will try to check in on you.

By the way your lack of posting might be what causes so few responses.

Thank you frognomore. I will try to post more often. I see our situations are similar in the fact that you, like me, need the truth to move on. I’m so happy that your W was finally honest with you and you both are doing well with your recovery.

I told my H from the beginning (after Dday) that I won’t rebuild a marriage based on a lie. By continuing the lies, our R would only get worse, not better. He says everything I warned him about has or is coming true. He is learning more every day but I’m afraid it will be too late by the time he “gets it”.

This is slowly killing my love for him. (I never thought I could ever say that.)

I know I will never trust him and I will never forgive him for what he did to me and the way he treated me.

if you will never forgive him or trust him again....why are you here? or for that matter why are you still married?

i know that sounds harsh but if you are not open to things getting better.....how do you ever think they will?

my story is long....and buried somewhere here.....but lets just say i live with the king of avoiders and liars. he still to this day lies about stuff.....believe me i know how you feel tenfold. but YOU have to decide if you are in this or not. that is YOUR choice. choose.

is this gonna be fixed tomorrow, next week, next year....who knows? but you have to be willing. and if he is willing.....then give us some time and him some time to work on the issues. plus, you should be working on your stuff anyway.

If this IS the case ... do both of you a favor, divorce. Why should either of you have hope in your hearts if you are determined to "never" forgive ???

My sister said this to me one time ... "I will never forgive you for _____."

When she declaired this to be her stance, I realized I needed to not care about her forgiveness or understanding and make our relationship more superficial. Which I have done ~~~> and we get along just fine. This was during our mother's last stages of cancer. I could not afford to get into a sisterly war when our parents were so much in need of family harmony. Me, I remain "unforgiven", and she remains left out of my intimate emotional circle. It is what it is. This works out for a sister-sister relationship, and I guess it is possible for you to be in a marriage without trust or forgiveness ... but I ask you ~~~> Why would you want this? Is it temporary ice-age, or do you think this is set in cement?

Pep

Geez I agree with Pep. I hate to have to type that in but I did.

If forgiveness is not an option you should just give up on recovery.

You can get a D or stay unhappily married.

If there is nothing he can do then why stay.

I am not saying by the way your feelings are invalid. I think every BS has the right to a D. I do not believe that every WS or FWS can be forgiven.

I am saying if you can't move forward then you should be honest and open and just put it on the table.

It may end up in a D but I think that is better then living under the roof of someone you cannot forgive.

Nikko, Pep and Frognomore…

Frognomore, Is that the first time you and Pep have agreed? Thanks, I just chuckled for the second time since Dday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I should clarify by saying I will never forgive the act of the A or the actions of the way he treated me. Hate the actions not the person. IMO, for me to forgive him for the A, etc. is like saying to him that it was ok. I will never feel that way.

Why am I here? I know I’ve said this before but…..I’ve loved my H since I was 16 yrs. old. The first time he kissed me it sent a strange feeling through me. It’s hard to describe. The closest thing would be a very mild electrical charge surging through my entire body. This happened EVERY time he kissed me and got stronger over the years. (I can count the number of guys I’ve kissed on one hand but never got that reaction.) That special “electrical charge” feeling is gone now.

The love I have for my H runs very deep. I believe I defined my very life around this love. Why else would someone who is very logical and analytical, who’s job is problem solving commit suicide when they find out H is having an A? I’m the last person you would think could do that, but I did.

Sorry this is so long, but I felt I needed to give you that background. Now I know that it’s not healthy to define oneself by the love of another person. I am working on this.

The only thing my H needs to do for this M to move forward and us to heal is for him to be Radically Honest. To me, it’s a very simple request but that may be because I’m the BS.

Because I don’t have the answers to my questions, I feel that the secret life he had with OW is more important than our M.

H called Jennifer today but she said she can’t help him and told him he needs to find a C that deals with memory. We’ve been having a very hard time with our situation this week. I’ve never seen him so distraught as I did today. I don’t know what to do.

TW,

Well it took me over 3 and a half years but what I finally did was become a realist.

I NEEDED radical honesty to think about recovery. I knew myself well enough to know if the secrets, lies, half truths would bother me to no end.

I just needed my FWW to protect me from any more gotcha's. Oh I thought you knew......

Either way I was like you. I didn't like the way my FWW decided what I needed to know or what I didn't need to know.

I wanted to know what I wanted to know. She had a choice tell me or not tell me.

She always said she had told me everything and then later I find out something she didn't tell me and boom it was a horrible sitch.

What happened to me was I found a new detail then I went back and inserted it into the picture or puzzle. Then usually I realized that something didn't fit. Then I would sit down and say wait before you told me 1 + 1 and that equaled two but now you are saying replace the first 1 with a 2 and make the plus a minus and throw a 7 where the second one is and then add a nine. That is a big difference. So I finally didn't want to deal with it anymore.

We were in MC and she had finally come to the point where she drew a line in the sand. She was done talking about it. She had told me the truth and that was that.

So I said what you are saying is three and a half years of going over it each time with something different that is over and over.

Fine. I told you 3 and a half years to be truthful, YOU HAVE CHOSEN NOT TOO I now chose to stop giving you more time. I want a D.

The MC asked if I would reconsider. I said no. I will not be married to a liar.

She went back to telling me the truth. I said no I found the truth then you admitted to it.

I am done. You had your chance I am done.

You had an Affair, you hurt me. I will tell you what I NEED for you to get my forgiveness.

We have hit an impass, you will not give me what I need so I am done.

The MC asked if she would go over it with him and I next time, she said yes. Then she took it back after we left.

I said fine then we will get a D after the holidays. This time I meant it.

I knew she would not get my forgiveness without telling me the truth.

So since you are saying you won't tell me I won't forgive you we need to get a D.

So the following week I said I want a D at the MC. He asked if I would reconsider I said not under her terms.

Following week we went back and I started talking about the separation. She saw I wasn't kidding.

So the bottom line is I waited way to long IMVHO.

I should have disconnected and started walking away instead of letting it drag on.

I can tell you I love my FWW but she has a long road to tow.

Frognomore…
OMG! My FWH is doing exactly what your FWW did! Why do the WS’s do that? How can they watch their spouse struggle through each day in total despair and be able to honestly say they love the BS? In my eyes that is not love. I shouldn’t judge though because I haven’t been in the WS’s shoes. I’m just trying so hard to understand.

I printed out one of your previous responses and had my H read it. It did have some affect on him when he read it. I wish your FWW could tell my FWH what he’s missing by not being totally open with me. Hopefully, he is getting responses from other FWS’s that understand what he’s feeling.

I’m not strong enough to put up with this much longer. D was hasn’t been an option for me because of my health and not enough income to support myself. I really want our M to work, but only under the condition of Radical Honesty.

It’s so sad because my H has changed so much. For the first time he hears what I say and listens to my opinions. We make joint decisions and started to talk. The part of him I miss is the strong, confident side of his personality.

What makes me the most angry is that he gave the OW the best of his personality. The intimate part that I wanted and needed. I was meeting 10x more of his EN’s than the OW but he didn’t want to see it.

Don't get me wrong. Even with all the anger I feel inside, my H is still a hardworking wonderful man inside. If we could get through a couple of things, we could have a great M.

Fork in the road ahead. So where do I go from here?

TW,

I will tell you this. My FWW is very lucky that I had other reasons to stay married to her.

Many nights I felt like I was in a lose lose situation. I didn't want to lose to be honest.

When my FWW had her A my kids were 3 and 7. She was a SAHM and I was of course the only support.

So starting off if we got a D I would be able to see my kids every other weekend and once during the week.

I have always been a loving caring father. I had two very good reasons to keep putting up with her lies.

Over the course of time she made some pretty big mistakes that would allow me a majority of custody and that is when I grew a pair and decided it was still lose lose because I want to stay a family but at the end of the day I had to be able to look myself in the mirror.

In retrospect if I could have had majority custody of my boys from the get go I would have probably just said leave until you can tell me the truth.

I couldn't plan B because if I left it affected custody as well.

So I don't know what your sitch is when it comes to that.

My FWW kept telling me she couldn't remember. The MC asked if I believed that. I said absolutely I believe that. I believe she cannot remember the lies she has told me so she is afraid to say anything.

I am done with the information confirmation sessions. She tells me a new truth I inject it into the previous truth. Then I figure out the lies. We go for months until I finally figure out the lies and do it all over again.

She can take her lies to her lawyer. If she can't be honest I can't be married.

I said eventually it is all coming out because I will need to depose the OM for our D. So there you go.

The truth finally came out. We are in recovery.

As a matter of fact after my FWW finally decided to tell the truth and then comitt do doing whatever it takes for as long as it takes the MC said he really didn't need to see us anymore.

I had moved on from the A but not the lying.

So for me the Fork was I needed to repsect myself. She had an A. I had a right to tell her what I needed to start recovery. IT wasn't a bargain. Either I got it or we got a D. She had every right to say no.

She kept saying I did tell the truth.

I am sure from your story your FWH has said we have gone over this a million times already, as if when he did it without being completely honest it counts.

I told my FWW I want her to keep going over it until the story doesn't change one bit. That she has been completely honest.

Good luck with the Fork. Ask the FWH for directions. The fork on the left is honesty and recovery the fork on the right is lies and divorce.

Frognomore…Thank you so much for sharing your story with me. I printed out your last 2 posts in MS Word and read them to my H. I think it had some affect on him.

You said in your posts many of the same things I’ve been saying to him since D-Day. Maybe because the words came from a man? Could talking to other men on MB be the key? I don’t know, but it’s worth a try.

My FWH also asked if I thought you would talk with him.

I hope I’m not being pushy or forward, but I’m desperate at this point! Things are going downhill rapidly for us. Would you be willing to post to my FWH? Since H and I don’t know each other’s name on MB, I would have to think of a way for you to connect us.

You figure it out and I will absolutely post too him.

I am glad it may have had some effect.

fnm – Thank You! H has his first IC session this afternoon so he won’t be home for another 6 hrs. I will talk to him then we will both post at that time with something to help you connect us.

Thank you again!!!

Just let me know. If you want he can go to recovery and just ask me to join. I think if he really wanted to know about how hard it was on me he could probably search my story. Too. I won't do it because I really don't want to read it.

I will tell him my turmoil came from the lies.

But anyway. I usually don't post except at work mon-fri pacific standard time.

So if I don't respond right away tell him I will.

Thanks! I will let him know. We are on central time.

Hi t_w,

I need to ask you some questions.

Have you read the Harley Concepts on the main site? Which of them have you implemented?

Sometimes the problem with a lack of Radical Honesty is that the BS does not make the FWS safe to tell the truth. I believe it may have been MelodyLane earlier in your thread who touched on this, she said that she realized she interrupted her husband a lot in counseling. I was the same, I didn't make it safe for my husband to share his truth with me.

Yup I said to "SHARE HIS TRUTH".

It's a fact that affairs cause chemicals to secrete in the infidels' brains that are as powerful as heroin and morphine. It is extremely difficult to think clearly, remember clearly, or make good decisions while under the influence of powerful drugs and the affair addiction is no different. There will be some things that will be difficult for your husband to remember, and if he is truly remorseful there will be things that are painful to remember to the point that he won't WANT to remember them.

At any rate it is extremely important for him to tell you the whole horrific story from start to finish as best he can remember it. This is his story to tell you in safety, so there should not be any third degree, or any interruptions while he's telling it.

After my husband finally told me the whole truth I had to say thank you for telling me, without getting mad or reacting in any way, that's how to make it safe for him to talk. Once he's talking in safety the facts and his perceptions will come out. Quite honestly I doubt the date of the first kiss is that significant to him that he remembered it. I know that my husband couldn't remember the date but he could remember the basic circumstances that gave us a time frame.

I'm very confused on your time frames. Exactly when and how did you find out about your husband's affair? What was the reason you decided not to speak with Jennifer anymore?

From what I have read, I believe one of the major difficulties in your (lack of) recovery is the severity of the dysfunctional communication between you. It also seems like you are totally focused on the affair, not that I blame you at all, but it's in your best interest to also focus on implementing the Harley Basic Concepts into your marriage. Love Busting is one thing, as things improve you will find that less compelling, but Disrespectful Judgements will hinder your attempts to communicate. A lack of communication will further widen the rift in intimacy that you are suffering from in the marriage, a lack of intimacy that may have contributed to the affair in the beginning, so you really need to work on that as best you can under the circumstances, and that's one reason I strongly recommend your implementing the Harley Concepts.

You have some great things going for you, 1) your husband is willing to post here and get help here. Puts you way ahead of the game. 2) Your husband appears to be remorseful, even with the issues you have sited regarding the trouble you are having unraveling the affair story. I do think he will be willing to give you the whole story if you can make it safe for him to do so.

The worst of Disrespectful Judgements is what I call the Disrespectful Assumption. That is when you decide you know what he is thinking or feeling instead of allowing him to share his true feelings and thoughts with you. It's the worst kind of mindreading and will not help you in the long run.

It's ok if you decide you don't want to continue in the marriage, but if you are going to stay together for the time being while you decide whether you can recover with him, then you must give him the opportunity to redeem himself through his current actions, those are being where he is supposed to be when he says he is, allowing you total access to his email, passwords, financial information, phones, etc. Not the past, you are still sorting the past out, but the present information.

For now, there's one other thing that you need to think about and that is your own effort to start building some good memories into the present. You cannot only talk to him of the affair. It will not aid your recovery to ignore him except to speak of the affair. I strongly suggest you set some time limits on affair talk. Dr. Phil in his book, Relationship Rescue gives some of the best advice about this, and that is that men in particular feel trapped when they don't know that there is an end in sight. If your husband feels trapped or as if he's under interrogation than he's got to know that there is a time limit for it. Half an hour at a time should be more than sufficient if you are having affair talk most days. Otherwise you are not making him safe to tell you his affair story.

It really doesn't matter what you think about the affair story, it's his story to tell. If you want the answers you are only going to be able to get them from him. So you must make every effort to quietly listen to his view of what happened.

Believe me, as he gets further and further away from the affair his perceptions about it will continue to change. Think about it, in a recovered marriage the former wayward spouse has to change their perception because what once seemed to be a good idea, becomes the worst mistake of their lives, and that is a complete change in perception.

The story you get early is one tainted by the affair addiction, and if you want to recover, you want it to change, not the facts of where and how, but the perception of it. I know that it hurt my remorseful husband to have to tell me the gory details, at the same time I needed to know the truth of what I was dealing with in order to decide I could forgive it.

So I'm not saying you shouldn't require the truth, but I am saying that you need to have some common sense and compassion about what is acceptable. It's not acceptable to assume that he every thing he says is a lie. If he can never win he won't feel safe to even try to tell his truth.

TW,

I posted. Now I have to agree some with M4L.

He has to know one day the questioning will end.

I told my FWW and the MC all I needed was to hear the story more then once without any significant changes.

So for instance she said we went to dinner and she spent 40 dollars. Then next time she said she went to dinner and it cost her 50 dollars. Fine that is a bad memory. The major points she did go to dinner and she paid were still the same.

That was fine with me. Now if she said I went to dinner then paid and went home. Then it was she went to dinner paid had sf then went home. OOPS. That was a big change.

Now my thing was also how easy is it to forget certain things. I don't have a perfect memory.

I think I could remember the start time pretty close and the end time pretty close. Stuff in between maybe not so much depending on how big of a deal it was to ME.

What I mean is to me if I had an A and I met my GF at a starbucks today because she was driving by. I might forget that in a year. Now if I met her in a starbucks and had sf in my car I probably wouldn't forget that. I might forget the exact date but probably not the event itself.

So if you saw a receipt and new he was at a starbucks he might not really remember but if the SF was in there I think he would remember.

I hope that makes sense.

The other point is ground rules. At some point you have to agree to stop asking if he has told you the truth.

To me it is like a TV show or a movie or a book. Sooner or later no matter how good it is you get tired of seeing or reading the same thing.

As long as the story stays about the same you will get tired of hearing it.

Then you can move on.

Mates4Life and Frognomore,
I agree with you also. The questions would stop once I felt he was even close to telling the truth. My questions aren’t unreasonable. It’s not that I just don’t believe him. I KNOW he’s lying.

I started typing a short answer in Word but I got to 2 pages. That was the short version.

I’ve read everything on the MB site many times. I have nearly everything printed out in 3-ring binders.

Both H and I started implementing the MB principles in Oct. 06 when we started MC with Jennifer. Very difficult for me to do because of his lying, my job and my illness. I tried meeting his EN’s our entire M. He would criticize or push me away. When I laughed he would tell me to settle down. There are many times I can’t do anything because of a chronic illness.

It was suggested that we talk for one hour at a time. Here is how our hour goes….
Husband:
“I love you and want our M to work.”
Pause.
“I had an A.” “I wish I could change it but I can’t.”
Pause.
“I am being honest now.” “I lied in the beginning but I am telling you the truth.”
Pause.
“I know I destroyed you.”
Pause.
“I don’t know when the A started. I told you when I honestly believe it started, but you don’t believe me.”

OK. The hour is up. H feels so much better that we talked about the A. I’m still waiting for the conversation to begin.

Our next 1 hr. conversation about the A 1-2 wks later.

Husband:
“I love you and want our M to work.”
Pause.
“I had an A.” “I wish I could change it but I can’t.”
Pause.
“I am being honest now.” “I lied in the beginning but I am telling you the truth.”
Pause.
“I know I destroyed you.”
Pause.
“I don’t know when the A started. I told you when I honestly believe it started, but you don’t believe me.”

OK. The hour is up. H is really spilling his guts isn’t he?
Sorry, I’m getting angry as you can probably tell. One hr. doesn’t work for us. It may work for him, but we get nowhere!!!

The “I can’t remember” stuff was put in his head by our first MC. He has used it to the max. After the MC said there may be things he won’t be able to remember, he started saying he can’t remember. He remembers names of boys from other towns that our boys played against in sports 15 yrs. ago, what town we were in, the score, and many other details people don’t normally remember. I could give many more examples.

I quit MC with Jennifer because I was still at square 1. Going thru our EN’s made me angry. Going thru the LB’s made me angry. H trying to fill my EN’s makes me angry. I have only 1 EN and that is Honesty.

Jennifer and my H were moving ahead but I wasn’t. If I had the truth, we would have been flying through MC.

As far as “his truth”. If it weren’t for the 2 or 3 big fights in the last year, we would still be at “we were just friends” and “nothing happened”. For many months he put me through he)) saying “I am being honest”. Then after a fight he tells me I did get the STD from him being with the OW. I calmly told him thank you for telling me the truth. Inside I was so angry. I already knew that.

H does everything for me now. I don’t want a puppy dog for a H. That’s what he was for OW. I’ve always wanted him to do things with me not for me. He has very bad days and as usual, I cave in and comfort him and try to build him up.

He says and does so many wonderful things now. But, he is showing me the secrets he and OW shared are more important. I won’t start over in a M based on lies and secrets. My morals are the only thing I have left. Sorry, this still is very long.

TW,
Do not get me wrong you should get the truth.

I had the same thing from the MC. The one hour talk with the same thing.

Our MC put the I can't remember stuff in there too. I am just mean enough to turn it around on her.

We disagreed about something in the past. I decided I was always right. Her memory sucked right!

I did it in MC one time I thought he was going to fall over laughing.

I said something she tried to correct me. It was before Her A and she can't rember that far back. I said. I think we should go with what I say. If she can't remember her A she certainly can't remember what happened before that.LOL.

I would suggest your H putting it down on a timeline type calendar.

Give him some time to work on it. For him to fill it in the best that he can.

I think even if stuff is missing but you see he is trying to the best of his ability to tell you the truth it will go a long way.

Why do you keep letting him start the conversation?

Have you tried preparing a list of questions and then YOU start the conversation by asking:

"Tell me about how many times you <whatever> or did you ever <such and such> or <where was your first x>"

That way, you can target each conversation to what you want to know and just work down your list?

Mys

Are all these long pauses a device to waste the allocated hour? Because my husband tried that and I told him any pause more than 5 minutes and I would reset the entire clock. I was determined to get the full amount of time I felt entitled to.

Also once I had the barebones story I had to ask questions to get all my answers, I think that's is pretty normal though some FWSs do just spill it all. Conflict avoiders will not do that, (my husband, FNM's wife, your husband.. all seem to be conflict avoiders).

Dear TW,

My FWH is a lot like yours. Our 2nd day he denied everything until I kept bringing the truth/facts which were undeniable. That was in Oct. '04. I didn't have MB and really didn't address the A or recovery very well, lots of LB and DJ's. I would bring up the A, get the I don't know/I don't remember answers. It progressed to FWH saying the talks were too much and if I wanted the answers I should write down the q's and send them in an e-mail, but on 3-4 at a time bc it was too much for him, and we would set aside time to discuss. What happened with this was the time wasn't taken to think of the answers so on the rare chance we set up a time to speak, it wasn't productive.

Then we had trouble with our second son who was in college who found out about the A and withdrew from the second semester '05 classes as he was sick about it and in counseling, I found the paperwork in July '05 for the withdrawel. I insisted on MC, which FWH wouldn't do before this. We went from Aug of that year to March '06, nothing much changes except the counselor finally said to him what is the reason you won't answer the q's, and FWH said it is bc he can't remember and he is being honest. MC said you can remember some of it so you need to just bite the bullet and get it done. Which he did and I thanked him. Here's the but, I don't think the fog was cleared even at that pt. and I believe that some of the answers have changed, such as why did you have the A? As he gets more clarity, he can provide more useful answers for recovery. Before the A happened bc I won't support a business idea of his and he was angry, so he became convinced I was evil incarnate and nothing I did was right. Ow on the other hand supported his second business venture, emotionally, without leaving her H or investing in it financially, oh yeah, that would be me!

All I can advise you is to keep trying until you can't, or it gets better. I'm at the pt where FWH knows I won't put up with his 'stuff anymore, either he works on the M or we are done. He would just coast if it were up to him.

I think the BS has to stand up for themselves, otherwise the WS hasn't any motivation to help the BS recover. My motivation lately has been more of an individual journey of healing as my FWH won't do MC, won't do the questionaires, he'll agree to it and then "forget". I chuckled about the puppy statement as that describes my FWH. I don't want that either. In our sitch I make 4 times, at least, what FWH makes. To be honest, I don't think FWH could financially make it on his own and that is his motivation for the puppy behavior. I think bc of this, I can't trust him when he says he loves me or misses me. Him saying this only came about in the last 3-6 months.

So, I see the fork as well, I have hung in there, I think I am losing self respect for my willingness to accept crumbs, and then try to figure out the "real" intent behind it.

If FWH had said I want this M and will do everything to help you heal, as long as it takes, and actually follow-through with this, then I would have been jumping for joy. He said he wanted to try again, but he didn't try, until fairly recently, maybe 11/06 forward. So, my love has gone to a trickle and I'm left with those sayings, love is a choice, love is an action, etc., I hope those phrases are true, otherwise, I can't stay in this R.

I'm here just to check on you this morning. You do realize that you and your husband do not have to agree on everything to recover. I think there seems to be one big discrepancy here, he considered the start of the affair as the first sex act, and you considered it to start before the first kiss?

I actually can see that happening. Many many people erroneously think that it's not cheating until you actually have sex.

That's how decent people cross the line. The boundary that says anything you wouldn't do in front of your wife is cheating.. that same boundary that is crossed when you engage in flirting.. the first step that leads directly into an affair. You think it was fun flirting with that person but s/he's not my type so it's harmless. Until suddenly that person is so much fun it doesn't matter that they're not your type anymore, you're enamored.

This is how affairs work. It's not rocket science. And though recovery is hard, it's not rocket science either. It's much more like a simple recipe:

Two willing spouses
tons of compassion
15 Hours a week undivided attention
stir in some recreational companionship

Bake in a clear and transparent Policy of Joint Agreement container for 2 to 5 years to build trust over time.

Sprinkle liberally with forgiveness.

I don't understand what the problem is with him setting up a timeline for you. You've got that man so rattled he doesn't know if he's coming or going.

It looks to me, seriously, as if you're just taking your anger out on him. Ok. I can understand that. It won't save your marriage, but I don't think you care about that at this point. Some day, though, you may very well regret how you handle this now.

I recognized from D-Day that my entire life depended on my actions and whether I kept my wits about me.

Let me tell you something else, both Frognomore and I suggested making the timeline. So what's the deal?

I very strongly suggest you two get a pro-marriage counselor to help you communicate about the affair, because you are doing a bang-up job of destroying your chances for a successful recovery, Troubled. You are foggy and wayward yourself now, in my opinion. You have got to be able to effectively communicate with anger boundaries enforced, and I don't think you can do it without an advocate for both of you in the room.

TW,

You are now getting a lot of great of advice and point of views.

What I am noticing is that you both seem to have a communication problem. It is fairly common though. Heck my FWW and I still have one. LOL.

I think though on his side he has to know it will end. He has to know if he does it a certain way it will be ok with you.

I know where you are. I suggested a timeline that he sit down and actively work on. Give it all of his effort. Then discuss that with you.

You can also guide the conversations as discussed. Ok I want to know about ...... Do not get off topic, do not accept going that way.

I think your old way of communicating is a habit. You both have roles in it.

You both continue to play your roles. You stop playing your role. Become the person that delves.

I think you are seeing as a general rule BS's want details FWS want vagueness.

My FWW actually said I had an A that is all you really need to know. LOL.

I think your H being here says a lot.

If he agrees to sit down with a calendar and start trying to fill it in would that be ok with you?

Thank you frognomore, myschae, mates4life and nahobio. I’m going to try and answer everyone’s questions. Let me know if I forget any.

I fully support him on doing the timeline! I think it is the best idea we have gotten so far and wish he could have done it a long time ago, but we didn’t know about it then. I have no problem at all with this and told him so last night. I thought he understood that but now I’ll have to think if there is anything I did or said to make him think otherwise.

H asked me for some ideas how he could proceed with a timeline. Told him I could throw out a couple of ideas, but maybe it would be better for him to get some ideas from someone on MB. We both have thoughts that quickly jump into our mind then are gone just as quickly. I suggested to him to write down all the rambling thoughts in a notebook as they pop up in his head. He can then take them and add them to his timeline. He was pressuring me for some ideas and that’s all I could think of at the time.

Last night H came home and told me he would like to talk about the A after supper. We also needed to get stuff ready for our tax appt. on Fri. and get a shipment ready. I had a glimmer of hope. I asked him what he thought we should do first, thinking he would say “taxes”. To my surprise he said we would talk first. I told him we wouldn’t have time to talk if we had to work on taxes and get a shipment ready since it was already about 7pm.

Just knowing we were going to talk and maybe start to clear the air was great but I was cautious not to get my hopes up too high. We made supper together and talked all the while. After supper, we sat on the sofa. I promised him I would not say anything during our talk. No LB’s or DJ’s or walking out of the room. I told him I will probably cry, but that’s all. He agreed. I had my box of tissues close. I was very calm and felt I could handle anything he could throw at me.

The talk started about MB and the great people that are taking time out of their busy lives to help us. We talked about him doing the timeline. I told him I thought it was a great idea. He thought it would help both him and me. I agreed. Then he talked about something that happened at work, him not being very good with computers and it takes him so long to type his posts on MB because he types with 2 fingers. It was almost 8:30 pm and I realized by now, we weren’t going to talk about the A. H said his AD’s were wearing off and he was starting to feel “weepy” as he puts it. I told him it had been over an hr. and since we are supposed to keep it close to an hr., I said we don’t need to continue any more tonight. I was very calm and as I had promised, no DJ’s or LB’s but felt depressed and let down once again.

H came to bed around 10:30 or 11:00. I was half asleep. He just laid there staring at me. Told him I didn’t feel like we were going to make it through this. Things went downhill from there. By now his AD’s were worn off.

It didn’t matter what I said, he took it as a LB or DJ. Because of this, I can’t talk about how I feel at all. I try to keep my feelings locked inside but by now I couldn’t hold it in anymore.

I told him he denied the OW nothing. When she called, he was out the door within 3 min. He left me on Mother’s Day, Christmas and 3 min. after coming home from my eye surgery to be with her. He did anything and EVERYTHING she asked. He agreed with this fact 100%. He had no problem talking to her about anything but I can’t get one fact of the A, not one fact, not ANY fact.

He asked me why I didn’t want him to do the timeline. I said what? I want you to do the timeline. Then he said he was going to have it done by Fri. no matter what. Told him I thought he needed more time than that to work on it. Rushing isn’t going to help.

His story was never the same so now he says nothing at all. He said he has memory problems. I asked, so you forgot everything about the A? I was so frustrated by this time I said “I didn’t know f-ing her was so traumatic for you”. I immediately said I was sorry for saying that and felt bad. He got up and left the room. I don’t think he came to bed all night except for about an hr. this morning because when I woke up we were snuggling.

Before and during his A, I felt like I was walking on eggshells. Had to be very careful what I said and how I said it. Had to be careful not to laugh out loud. It didn’t matter. Everything I said he would tell me “that’s stupid”, just ignore me or tell me to settle down.

It sounds like my H was a total jerk. He wasn’t. He was/is a very loving, caring person and he was/is gorgeous. It’s just that he said some things that were very hurtful to me.

I feel I’m still walking on eggshells. He tells me to ask questions, but when I do he says he feels pressured. I have to keep everything inside. The stress is affecting my illness and I’m missing 30-50% from work again. My job of 27 yrs is now a temporary position. I have a job until the project I’m working on is done or until the end of this year. Because I give 200% every day that I am at work, I have the option of moving to another position. The positions so far are ones that I am not qualified for, required a pay cut, extensive travel or involve many long hours. Sorry for rambling.

I mentioned to H last night that maybe it would be helpful if I stayed at our oldest S’s house just for a couple of weeks. It would give him time to work on his timeline and I would have time to think and work on me. He didn’t like this idea because he said I wouldn’t come back.

Myschae,
To answer your question, yes. A few months after D-Day, I did write down some questions and gave them to him to answer. If I asked them, he said it confused him because he had to shift gears all the time.

Here are some of the questions:
-Why an A?
-Were you that unhappy with me?
-What could I have done differently to prevent it?
-When did it start?
-Where was the first time?
-What were all the phone calls about? (Hundreds of calls. One morning there was 14 within 2 hrs.)
-What did you spend $20,000 on? (Didn’t bring anything home and OW doesn’t wear jewelry.)
-Were you in love with her?
-Did you ever tell her you loved her?
-What where you thinking when I said I had an STD and you still had SF with both of us without protection?

I don’t think these questions were/are unreasonable.

I waited for us to discuss them. Every time I asked how he was doing with the questions, he said he was half done. I finally demanded he tell me the answer to 3 of the questions. Each answer was basically 1 or 2 sentences. OK. Not much, but he promised he would finish the rest the next day. He spent hours in the living room working on them over the next 2 weeks. I asked how he was doing, he said fine. He said he needed to rewrite them because he wrote answers under my questions. Had to write small and was messy. More waiting.

One day, I was going to polish the dining room table. I tossed the runner and a couple of notebooks from the table on the kitchen counter. When I did this some loose papers fell out of one of the notebooks onto the kitchen floor. I need to say here that I can’t read anything without my glasses.

I went to put the papers back in the notebook. I couldn’t read anything but recognized them to be my questions and every question had something written below it. I quickly put them back in the notebook. I was excited because I knew he had them finished and we would be going through a few of them. A couple of days passed, I asked him how he was doing on them. He said fine and was about 75% done. Huh?

This was ongoing. I asked for answers to 3 more questions. He wanted to finish them all before talking and just had a couple of notes on some.

One day I came across a little jar of lotion I had thrown away months earlier. It was an herbal lotion OW gave me to help the bruises I had from my car accident. It was in a small box and when I pulled the box down, 2 papers fell from under it. It was my questions. No more had been added since the first time I saw them on the kitchen floor.

This was a big fight. He said he didn’t put the jar of lotion there. If he put the notes under that little box how could he miss it? Who put it there then? The dog? Why did he lie about my questions?

Sorry, I’m rambling again. I have no outlet for my anger and frustration and it’s building up inside me. The Dr. increased my AD’s for awhile to help me handle some of the pain, so I’m at the max dosage now.

Mates4Life,
My H has always avoided conflicts.

Nahobio,
Ya, your H sounds like my H. I told my H I really believe he will tell me the truth someday. It will be when he’s standing over my grave.

If I wasn’t sick I know I would have left right away. I don’t know if it would have been for 1 day or 1 month. All I know is that I was in so much pain I didn’t want to live. I love him too deeply so I know I would have to at least give him a chance to explain himself. I guess I still would be where I am now anyway. Sometimes I wish I didn’t love him so much. That’s terrible to say but I think it makes the pain that much more unbearable.

Thank you everyone! With your help and kick in the pants as needed, maybe there is a small chance to save our M. (Trying to be positive here.)

TW,

IMVHO some of those might be hard to answer and the answer may change as some more self realization occurs.

Let me give an example.

Why an A.
Right after D Day my FWW said it was because I was a bad H.
Then it changed several times.
Finally it was because she was selfish.

So you see that answer may change.

What did they talk about during 100's of phone calls. Probably lots and lots of things. Plans, whether, you, work normal stuff. But for him to remember every convo they had. I can't remember things my FWW and I talked about last week.

The Money maybe ask about big purchases. I can't recall where I spent the 100 dollars I took out of the ATM on Sunday.

I hope you see the point I am getting at.

I will say this you need to CREATE a SAFE environment for him to be honest.

He had an A that is really, really bad. But that does not give you permission to treat him poorly and yell mean disrespectful things and DJ him.

Good luck.

It looks like he will do the time line. Look at your questions and make sure they can really be answered.

Mates4Life and Frognomore,
Yes I’m angry. I’m very angry and try very hard to keep it inside so I don’t put any pressure on my H. I’m not a robot. Is it fair to expect me to pretend everything is fine, fake a smile, fill his EN’s like the A never happened? I know that’s what he wants even though he says otherwise.

I thought we were making very small steps forward even though I knew H was still lying. He seemed to listen to me for the first time. For a couple of weeks, we talked about the A when I started to feel upset. This cleared the air and for the next couple of days we felt very close. After one “clear the air” session, the next week was the best in our lives. No LB’s, DJ’s or disagreements of any kind. On the 7th day I started to feel some anxiety again and asked if we could clear the air again. Things came up constantly. We haven’t done this since.

Since then, my nightmares have gotten worse. Dr. said I have PTSD. I miss more work. I am becoming more withdrawn.


Quote: “You are foggy and wayward yourself now, in my opinion. You have got to be able to effectively communicate with anger boundaries enforced, and I don't think you can do it without an advocate for both of you in the room.”

I don’t understand what you mean by me being foggy and wayward.

Even if it was humanly possible for me not to get angry, if I did this, my H will never talk about it. That’s the way it was with the “fling” he had shortly before we were married.

I have been willing to try almost anything, but I’m not good at faking or pretending. It’s just not in me. I’ve always been an open and honest person.

H is a different person. DIL even said so. I don’t care when the kissing started. I know it went on for years. I just want to know he loves and respects me enough to tell me the truth. I need him to prove this to me. The only way he can do that is to answer a few questions honestly.

When I asked a question, he gave his answer. Then, when I asked the question later, I got a different story. OK, so be it. I waited a while then asked the question again. Once I got 2 consistent answers, I moved beyond it. The problem is, I’ve asked the same question and got 9 different answers.

The questions would end. I just need proof that he can be honest with me and for the first time in our M, just once, be willing to put me before the OW.

As far as the money, I’m not unreasonable. If you take a loan for thousands of $$$ out of your 401k would you remember why? If you withdraw large amounts of $$$ from your business or from your home equity would you remember? He went through $20000 in a yr. and totally trashed our credit. ($20000 and climbing as I find more.) I’ve been adding things I’ve found to a spreadsheet. It has gotten so large, I may have to create a database just to be able to sort it all.

I feel like I have a 1000 piece puzzle but 500 pieces are missing. The 500 pieces I have are from 9 different puzzles. I can’t do anything else until I put this puzzle together. A nuclear bomb has destroyed my reality. This puzzle is the only thing left amongst the ashes. There is nothing else for as far as I can see. I’m frustrated and I’m supposed to just smile and put the puzzle together. I feel like it’s my fault for being frustrated and I should just be happy to have a puzzle at all.

I am working on the LB’s and DJ’s. I promise I will try my hardest to do this. I don’t know how much more of his silence I can take though. I’m at the end of my rope.

Troubled,

You remind me much of myself a year ago. I, too, had a FWH who claimed to be remorseful but had that pesky "creative memory" syndrome. There was a point where I was obsessed about knowing every little detail of the affair, about her, etc., and I could ask him the same question on two different days and either get two different answers or the oh-so-convenient (for him) "I don't remember." Watch Court TV and you'll see all sorts of defendants using the same tactics, with the same wide-eyed innocence. Actors all.

After all, if you conveniently don't remember something, you can't be caught or nailed for it later by the prosecution. In this instance, the prosecutor is you. Your H is on trial for his life as represented by your marriage.

I am not good at faking happiness either. My first year as a newlywed has been far more h*ll than happiness, but much of that has been my own doing. My FWH is truly remorseful as well, and committed to making this work, but my own obsession, anger and bitterness has nearly derailed the whole recovery process time and again. Every time we started to see a glimmer of hope, or things seemed tenatively good or calm, something would trigger a relapse in me. Things that were impossible to control or predict. I imagine you are suffering the same sort of thing.

I find movies and certain shows are particularly risky in this aspect. There was a particular dancing show that I enjoyed watching each week, until the night that a competitor came on of the same (somewhat rare) nationality as the OW and out of nowhere that beast of fury and hatred consumed me. I never watched the show again. Day in, day out a BS lives this sort of half-life during recovery. So I know to some extent what you are living with and so do many others here.

But, dear Trouble, you must admit it: No matter what he tells you now in regards to the OW and the affair, you will not believe him. He cannot win. That unfortunate fact is what will cause both of you more pain and unhappiness than anything else.

Your H has made his own bed by lying time and again, now he has to accept that you cannot/will not believe him, but YOU also need to accept that nothing he says will satisfy you because trust has been absolutely and utterly destroyed. I think I told my FWH that at one point: "You could tell me your eyes are blue now [they are] and after all this I wouldn't believe you."

The policy of radical honesty is all well and good, but until a WS totally and willingly reinvents themselves, it's like putting lipstick on a pig.

You say the spark between you two is gone. Others have asked why you want to fight for a dead ember and I must, too.

Troubled, you deserve so much better than to torture yourself with this. You may have to accept that you may never know every little detail, or how and when and why and where. I came to that realization myself only recently.

I'm not so sure that dwelling obsessively on these details is any sort of progress in your healing. I know it didn't contribute to mine in any fashion. And yes, I identify totally with the anger and the feeling that forgiveness of any sort is condoning or letting them get away with it - but what is the alternative? Hang on to your rage and bitterness, fight and bicker every day while your H desperately invents answers to a list of questions to satisfy an EN you think you have?

An EN you only think you need for closure, because I suspect that even if he answered all those questions with multiple paragraphs and details, I doubt very much you would believe much if any of it. You would spot one tiny inconsistency and then be back to proclaiming it all lies. How is this progress for either one of you?

One day your H may grow tired of the grilling and constant search and demand for answers. One day he may just say "enough" and walk out, no matter how good-natured he normally is. It will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

If you both sincerely, desperately want to save your marriage, another tactic is needed. That is the point we came to, which is why we are going to Retrouvaille this weekend. We are not even religious and are willing to try anything. It sounds like you may be at that junction as well.

I, too, am tired of hurting, obsessing, and aching over the affair. I need to learn how to let go of the rage, not for him, but for myself. It has consumed a year of my life, one that should have been a time of newly-wedded bliss.

These are just some thoughts I wanted to share because, as I said, I hear many of my own plaintive cries in your words.

Be well and I wish you healing, whatever you decide to do.

~Silverwraith

Mates4Life, Frognomore and everyone,

I want to apologize for my anger and want you to know it wasn’t directed at you, I’ve been reading the posts from this week over and over. There are things in your posts that have triggered me to do some very deep thinking.

Thanks for the 2x4! Please keep posting. You are helping us/me more than you know. Thank You!!!

This last month has been bad and the last 2 weeks have been exceptionally bad for me. When I went back and read what I’ve posted this week I could see that the anger over this A is consuming me. I know now I need to find some constructive way of releasing my anger. Just need to find what will work for me.

Last night I was 100% free of DJ’s and LB’s. H was very quiet and all conversation was very generic. Only time we were together was when H took me to the Dr. The rest of the time, H helped our middle S install CD player in my car, or was on MB. I also was on the quiet side for fear of saying the wrong thing. I know this isn’t the way it should be, but I didn’t want any LB’s or DJ’s. Feels like the way we were just before and during the A. I’m hoping today will go better.

Silverwraith,
I’m so sorry you had to experience this kind of pain as a newlywed. I do feel much the same way as you do/did. I can’t listen to the radio in the car or the CD player in the house. I used to listen to music while I cleaned the house. It made the job go so much faster. Now, our son is installing a CD player in my car. I can’t tell him it won’t get used to play music. Maybe I’ll have to get books on CD and play those.

There are many movies and shows on TV I can’t watch anymore. There is very little in my life that isn’t a trigger. Time is supposed to heal all wounds and the triggers get less, but mine seem to be getting worse.

I feel like I’ve lost an entire year of my life. When we did talk about the A I would refer to “last year” or “last summer” when I was talking about 2005. If you ask me what we have done so far this year, I couldn’t tell you anything unless I looked at what I’ve posted on MB or the few things I’ve written in my journal.

This bothers me also. My parents are elderly and may not have a lot of time left. I’ve spent some quality time with them when I’m able to but there are many days I can’t even call them. If you ask me what special things I’ve done with my parents, I couldn’t tell you unless I looked in my journal. We have 2 new grandchildren and I have trouble seeing them. My fear is losing important memories of another year. Not just with family but with my H as well.

“Lipstick on a pig” What an image that is! Now I’ve chuckled for the 3rd time since D-Day. Thanks, I needed that!

TW,

Everything you are feeling is normal.

It is how you express your self that may be causing some problems.

Listening to a FWS talk about an A sucks, but if he doesn't feel Safe you will never get what you want which is honesty.

So if you are going to DJ him and call him names you probably will not get what you want.

If he feels he can sit down and tell you as a means to an end which is recovery he will be more likely to open up.

I see you getting a lot of good advice go with it.

Troubled,

Here is some more advice on triggers - things I have discovered that have helped me.

No, you can't screen everything on TV or the radio for potential triggers, but certain choices are safer than others. I find light comedies work well for me (just be sure infidelity isn't the theme or presented in a 'harmless' or comedic fashion.) I know there are religious Web sites that "screen" movies for family viewing, give detailed reviews and a warning about any inappropriate content - those might be useful for modern films. We like old movies and old sitcoms and for the most part those seem to be fairly safe choices.

I, too, find a lot of joy in music. You didn't say why you couldn't listen to it anymore, but please don't give up the essence of "you" completely. If there are certain songs that bother you and you're worried they will come on the radio, control your world by making/burning your own CDs. But sentencing yourself to silence or endless dry books on CD doesn't sound terribly fun or healthy.

I am still somewhat raw but revisiting the idea of reclaiming my turf, so to speak. Last year I had sworn there were certain events "forever ruined" for me by the actions of FWH and OW, and I made a big stance by refusing to partake in once-beloved things I considered sullied by their disrespect, but I am beginning to rethink that stance.

It's not like it affects or bothers the OW when I deny myself things I once enjoyed - it hurts only me. Makes me bitter and resentful towards FWH too, and things get tense between us.

Why not take a stronger stance and say, by choosing to embrace your music or other things you enjoy, "Sorry, OW - you may have taken everything else, but you can't take this from me."

Honestly ponder the question: What would hurt the OW more (or make her angrier) - you wallowing in self-pity and denying yourself any fun, or you deliberately and joyfully CHOOSING to do things that will help your healing? I bet it's the latter. Imagine her pouting or screaming in frustration when she sees you reunited with your husband and reclaiming your power.

Don't give the OW the power and satisfaction of thinking she has successfully ruined your life. Yes, I still think of the OW almost every day, but now I deliberately stop myself whenever I start to obsess. The time and energy I spend dwelling on her and the A are gradually dwindling. I think it's a step in the right direction.

I hope you will reclaim YOUR power, YOUR joy and YOUR life - remember, OW hasn't earned and doesn't deserve any of it.

Frognomore,

I agree completely with you. I am getting very good advice. That’s why I made a promise here, where everyone can see it, to try my very best to avoid LB’s and DJ’s. Maybe I won’t have 100% success at first, but it’s a goal I intend to reach. I may need to come here to vent during the rough times. Just know that it is never toward anyone on MB.

No LB’s and DJ’s for a few days. I haven’t mentioned anything A related. It’s just like it never happened. H likes it. On the other hand, I’m getting more depressed and lonely.

I want my H to feel safe enough to tell me anything. I’ve never experienced anger to this magnitude before. Even if I was the best wife in the world, I’m not sure he will ever be able to tell me the truth. Sorry to be negative here, but IMO, he will be getting everything he wants.

As far as the timeline, what is a reasonable length of time for him to finish this? Rough idea? If I never ask, he will never offer. Just like the list of questions from last year. Never went through them. Will it be the same for the timeline? Probably IMVHO.

Silverwraith,

Thank you for the advice on triggers. I do tend to stick with comedies and old movies. I used to love romance movies. Probably because I never got it from my H. Not the mushy stuff, but the more believable, lighthearted kind. I was having a very good day when I purchased the movie “Indecent Proposal”. We both had seen it before so didn’t think anything of it. What a mistake! In the very first love seen, I had a panic attack and lost it. LB’s and DJ’s all over.

H and OW had SF in OW’s car with the radio on. OW and I liked the same kind of music. The words in most of the songs are usually about a man and woman. Every time I hear one of these songs I wonder if it was playing when they were together. Yuk! I get nauseous. I also wonder if I did play some of my favorite songs, would some of these remind him of being with her? I know what you’re thinking…..not logical. I agree. But that’s where I’m at for right now.

As far as the OW, nothing, and I mean NOTHING would bother the OW. Even though I have proof, she still denies anything happened and told me to go get help. She has no remorse or guilt and has convinced her BF that I’m making the whole thing up.

She doesn’t like losing. She has always told me she always gets what she wants. I spoiled her plan by discovering A so she isn’t finished with me yet. OW told my H she has gone through great lengths to hide her past so nothing could ever be linked to her. Things have happened to me during the A and since D-Day. We now know OW is very dangerous, a psycho and is very patient. Just more stress to deal with on a daily basis.

To me is simple; NO matter how remorseful they appear, if they are NOT totally honest and transparent about the A and all you are entitled to know....They are still LIERS!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Soyestadista,

It appears you have just recently found out. I’m so sorry! The people here on MB are great. They can give you support, ideas, a cyber hug or the occasional 2x4 to get you back on track. Hang in there!

I don’t know if my H will ever be able to tell me the truth about the A. He has changed and has become more truthful about present things. It’s just the past he can’t come clean about yet. I have always given in to him our entire M. Honesty is one thing I refuse to compromise on this time if he wants to be married to me.

Sat. we picked up my dad to get his hair cut. H did too. Did some shopping after. I got very tired and almost passed out in the store so we came home. H and I made lunch together. After lunch H said he would go back to town to finish the shopping. I asked if he could wait and I would go with him later after we take my dad home. That way we could spend some time alone together. He acted like he didn’t want me with him. He was gone for hours but got the shopping done.

We got back from taking dad home about 8:45 pm. Went to bed about 9:30. As soon as H’s head hit the pillow he fell asleep. He worked hard and was so tired.

Sun. it was very nice outside and I wanted to be outside. H was working on various things. Very little communication between us. I became depressed and went back to the bedroom and cried. Oldest S brought new granddaughter so I babysat for a while. After that, H went on MB, then worked on his timeline. I went to bed. Very little conversation.

I avoided all LB’s or DJ’s all weekend. Things between us seem like they are going back to the way they were before and during the A. Maybe even worse. I suppose I should get myself to work. Going in later so I don’t have to come home so early and try to pretend. I can’t handle the way things are between us. I feel like I’m going to explode.

Your entire M cannot be about the A. However being depressed and lonely will not help. I think I saw you were on AD's not sure but see if the doc can tweek them. Also IC might help you. For me this board and IC helped me say a lot of the things I needed to get out that I owned.

Let me tell you this though take a look around this board you are not alone.

That seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy. When I read that I see you giving yourself permission not to be the best wife. Even if you do he won't tell you the truth right. He gets everything he wants.

Prove it. See I my FWW used to have thinking like that. Even if I ....... you still won't...... So then she doesn't and I don't and she was right.

However if she did ....... there is a chance I might ........

To me that is an insult you are telling me what I will and won't do. How about she .......... and then when everything is said and done maybe I will or maybe I won't but please don't tell me I won't just so you don't have to.

On the time line. You know your H. His typing seems to be horrible. He doesn't have a lot of time and it seems hard for him to communicate. Those are observations that may be wrong.

First you need to openly communicate your expectations. IE what you want to know.

Then ask him HOW LONG do YOU think it will take. Then give him that long. I am not saying a year or two though lets be reasonable.

He says he started. The goal here is radical honesty.

The more detail you need the more time it will take.

Again watch out for those LB's and DJ's.

Good luck.

Dear TW;
Thanks for you kind words and interest. Yes, I just recently found out and am very angry and hurt!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
I am going to therapy and little by little I hope to get all the truth. I simply cannot take half-truths...I believe after you've been caught...why continue lying! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but I guess he has to go thru the WS stages after the A has been revealed...!Anyway, I am the type that needs to know all of it, otherwise I cannot proceed to any type of recovery!

I don’t have much time right now. I will post more later and answer any questions, etc.

It has been a rough week. I told my H that I felt hurt because he went back into town without me last weekend. He finally explained that he bought me an anniversary gift. Our anniversary is today.

Because I am so sensitive about gifts since D-Day, I felt I needed to forewarn him. We talked for a while so he could understand where I’m at right now. It is something that I am dealing with and need to work out.

He got the OW something very personal and intimate for Valentine’s Day and had put weeks of thought into it. This is something he has never done for me. I usually got something like a toaster.

If he didn’t put as much thought into the gift as he did for the OW’s gift then I would be hurt by it right now. I told him I would rather have uninterrupted, undivided attention from him for a few hours. We are also planning to go for a long walk this evening if it doesn’t rain.

Yesterday, I woke up shaking and by 3:00 it was much worse. I started to panic and couldn’t work. I had to leave at 4:00. I’m shaking again this morning. If I don’t get something complicated at work to keep my mind busy, I won’t make it through the day. I feel like I’m always 10 seconds from losing control. Not a good thing to happen at work.

Have to go for now.

I agree that our M can’t revolve around the A but it’s all I think about. I can’t escape it day or night. The doctor has me on the highest dosage of AD’s allowed right now to help me cope. He wants this to be temporary and doesn’t want to keep me there. He said there is only so much he can do with the meds. The rest is going to be for me to start healing. The only way I can start healing is for my H to tell me the truth or for me to move out and start my life over. I don’t want to move out but I don’t know how long I can do this.

I may have to start IC. I will look for one today.

Am I giving myself permission to not be the best wife? I guess I haven’t thought of it that way. I feel I’m trying my best. I also realize I am struggling.

I’m afraid that if I open myself up and he doesn’t tell me the truth it will completely destroy me. I have been open and honest with him our entire M and he and OW used it to have an A. It almost cost me my life. H on the other hand has never been open and honest with me. I feel I have given and given in this M. I’m only asking for one thing….for him to be honest.

My greatest fear is that the timeline H is working on will be just pages of the same garbage he’s been telling me. At 10 pm tonight it was 60 degrees outside and H was wearing a short sleeve shirt. It’s April. Remember, H told me he was wearing a sweatshirt the first time with OW which he says was in June. In June 2005 it was 60-70 degrees at night. I have photos of the grandchildren outside late in the evening with shorts and tank tops in May and June. There are other photos with dates and times also. I have other proof it wasn’t June but H still insists.

When he does go through his timeline, I will listen with no LB’s or DJ’s. Even if he says the A started in June, I won’t say anything. Instead, I feel I will need to take some time to think about every thing he tells me. If he appears to be telling the truth, the questions will stop. There may be a few just for me to verify it is the truth. I want the OW out of our M as soon as possible.

His typing is horrible. His communication is better than his typing. If he is writing his posts like he writes things to me, he is probably trying to save keystrokes by not writing complete sentences. Probably several topics in one sentence like….went to town, made wife lunch, worked on car, wife depressed. Am I close?

When he is going through a tough time, because of our sitch, his typing may get worse. His thoughts may go all over the place. (This happens during our conversations too).

I tend to get “wordy”. Too many thoughts going through my head at all times plus the constant thoughts of the A. My mind is total chaos 24/7.

It was our anniversary Friday and it came and went quietly. We went for a long walk. We both talked about work the whole time. Pretty boring conversation. I was having a hard time but tried not showing it. Came home made supper together and went to bed.

Saturday, my H helped oldest S and I went shopping with my mother for a couple of hrs. In the afternoon, our 2nd son and my H worked on some things. I became very tired so I slept for a while. We made supper together. H’s IC told him to sit quietly for 1 hr. every night to just think and work on his timeline. He did that then came to bed.

Sunday, we went outside and picked up sticks and more little stuff we’re still finding from the tornado we had late last summer, especially glass. This was a major trigger for me and broke down crying a couple of times.

I’ve always done this every spring on my own because H would be gone helping someone else. It was nice having H there to help and I did enjoy it but I still had a very difficult time. I did force myself to finish one section of our property. I started to panic and had to quit.

We made lunch together. My anxiety was so bad. Felt like I was suffocating so I lay down for a while. H did one load of laundry. We needed a few things from town so H ran some errands, which only took him an hr. I just didn’t want to go out in public so I stayed home and did laundry.

After dinner, we went to my parent’s house. Jennifer called to check up on us. She said the timeline was a very good idea. I printed out the spreadsheet I created with all the credit card charges, checks, receipts I could find and his paychecks with hours missing. Jennifer thought this would be helpful for working on the timeline.


Soyestadista,

I know the pain you are going through.

Quote: “I believe after you’ve been caught…why continue lying!”

My FWH said he lied to minimize the severity of what he did. By telling me the lies, he was telling himself it was the truth. By saying the words (lies), he could convince himself that it wasn’t that bad and it should be easier for me to get over. He was deciding what I needed to know in order to heal from this. Wrong. Only the BS knows what they need in order to recover. My H is realizing this more every day.

H told me many lines of “bull” for months. The story has never been the same twice. I believe he is finally out of the “fog” and it is just fear holding him back from telling me the truth. I told him I don’t care if it went on for 5 yrs. or how horrid it was. I won’t leave him as long as he tells me the truth.

If he continues to lie to me, I won’t stay in a M with a foundation based on lies. It’s just the way I am.

Hang in there! Sometimes you have to just take it hour by hour to get through the day. I had to go minute by minute some times. I will be thinking of you.

TW,

I read your post. This is progress on your H's part.

He is actively working on the timeline for you. He is trying to meet one of your conditions for recovery.

Please recognize how big that is.

Right now I am seeing you as a person with one foot out the door just waiting to get the other one in.

My mom put it to me like this. Do not get a D until you are 100% sure that is what you want. Make sure you feel that way for a while.

Until that day assume you are 100% into the M.

You need to get 100% back into trying to recover if that is what you want.

You have a right to walk we all do, if you decide not to then commit to recover.

I wish you the best and I understand better then most how you feel about this.

What are your plans if he finishes the time line and you are satisfied with what he has told you?

Frognomore,

I do see my H working on the timeline and appreciate it. I know this is difficult for him.

H came home during his lunch hr. to pick something up for our business. We only had 5 min.

He told me he remembered something this morning about the A that I might consider important. He will add it to his timeline. Just the fact that he told me gives me some hope. I thanked him for telling me. I also told him I love him very much.

Quote: “Right now I am seeing you as a person with one foot out the door just waiting to get the other one in.”

I didn’t realize this but I think you just described how I feel in one sentence!

Quote: “What are your plans if he finishes the time line and you are satisfied with what he has told you?”

I will then know that he is committed to rebuilding our M based on honesty. We can then start to move forward and begin our journey to recover from this nightmare. It will still take a long time and we will have our ups and downs but at least we would be moving toward something positive.

TW,

I am glad you see that. I think sometimes the FWS gets beat up pretty bad.

I see with your H's schedule he is busy so I am glad you see this as a commitment to you and your M that he is doing this.

I am glad to see you have a plan after he is honest.

I will be honest. I know my FWW didn't tell me everything. I am sure I got most of it, but could she remember every little detail? I realized probably not.

What bothered me is when the detail was pretty big and I know she was lying to make her life easier.

So I guess my point is remember some things he will mess up probably but don't hold him to task for stuff like that.

So for instance if my FWW said on Tuesday we .... and it was really Monday or Wednesday and it was an honest thing I didn't consider that a lie. Unless of course she was with him MOn, tues, and weds and is just trying to lie about the amount of time.

I think there is a difference though.

I hope you see what I am saying.

I realize he can’t remember every detail and I don’t expect him to. I just need to know the major things. If major details come out in his timeline, does that prove that he was lying to me all along?

I can’t stop feeling he will give me 2 or 3 more details then expect me to believe it as the truth. He has done this since d-day and it scares me. I can’t keep going through this…every 6 mo. being given the next version of “the truth” thinking maybe I’ll believe the new and improved story.

There are things he told me early on that he now says never happened. Why would a FWS do that? Sometime I feel he is minimizing some things more now.

I just wish he would get it. I can’t play the lying games anymore. Sorry, I’m just really down this evening.

Help! I feel like the walls are closing in on me. I’m having a very bad day!

I keep thinking about all the lies my H has told me for years. The fact that he didn’t love me as much as he thought he did for our entire M because he didn’t know me. How can you be M to someone for 30 yrs. and not know what kind of person they are?

A few wks. ago, I brought up the idea of moving into our oldest S’s house for a couple of wks. (Oldest S isn’t living there right now.) I felt it would give me some time to think and H more time to work on his timeline without having to look at me being depressed. S’s house is by a walking path so I could do a lot of walking to help increase my strength.

I didn’t suggest it to make him think I’m moving out permanently, I think we need a short break from each other. It can’t be helpful to our M for me to hold everything inside and let the anger keep building and becoming more depressed while my H works on his timeline.

It’s becoming more difficult to meet H’s EN’s. How can I if I’m angry, depressed and having anxiety all the time? H knows I’m trying to fake it and I think it makes him feel worse, not better. I feel so inadequate in every way!!!

It feels more and more like things used to be between us…me waiting for him to be available or the want to talk to me. Then, as before, our conversations are about the weather, work or other generic topics.

I have a dr. appt. this afternoon. Dr. is 2 hrs. away and H is going to drive me. It is so hard for me to be with him with all this pain and anger inside me.

I can’t think straight today. Need opinions please!

TW,

You are focusing way to much on the lies and the A.

The reason I aske what you would do if he is honest was to give you something else to think about.

He Had an A, He lied, He continues to lie. That is affecting you but it does not in any way dictate who you are.

You should read up on plan A. Plan A is to make yourself better.

Leaving and going to your Sons house will not help.

Wait for the timeline. Let him work on it. Then from there decide if you want to stay married.

If he is done and he is lying then do as you said you would.

If he comes up with things on it that he never told you before of course it is lying.

Are you now saying if he tells you something new you are going to hold him to task.

That is not a safe environment.

I hope you read on plan A. Make yourself better and get into personal recovery.

You should start that and if your M follows great, if not you will still be ok.

I will read plan A again before H gets home to take me to the doctor.

I am being very supportive about the timeline. I remind him and try to see that he is not disturbed. I haven’t asked him how long he thinks it will take him for fear he will feel pressured.

When he does go through the timeline, if he still lies, I won’t throw it in his face. I will remain as calm as possible, then take some time to think about everything he told me. After that, I will ask for further guidance from everyone here. It will take everything I have inside to just make it through the timeline.

I don’t think H completely realizes that I am done with the lies even though he says he does. He has said that many times since d-day and I’ve always found out later he still lied. That scares me. He needs to get it…lies=I’m gone, truth=we work on recovering.

The 2 hr. drive to the doctor was very uncomfortable. (I had been sick for a couple of days and was nauseated so that didn’t help.) It was total silence for a while. H finally said “You’re awful quiet”. I told him I felt we could only talk about the weather, work or the kids. Anything else seems to be taken out of context. He said we can talk about other things.

I could tell he was hurting. He wasn’t to the point of crying, but I could see the tears welling up in his eyes. This used to cause me to give in and immediately try to comfort him. Now, I just feel numb. He then said, “I’ve done so much to you and hurt you so deeply that it has changed you hasn’t it?”

I tried to tell him that each lie is like a knife stabbing me. After you’ve been stabbed hundreds of times, you begin to feel them less and less. Just my way of trying to explain how I feel.

The next thing he said wasn’t “I understand” or anything. He asked me to make a phone call to one of our business customers. Huh? Right this minute? That hurt me big time!

After the doctor appt. we had a nice dinner. Conversation was generic and safe. The ride home was frustrating for both of us. More silence or generic conversation.

While H worked on his timeline, I read more of Plan A in the book Surviving and Affair. When H came to bed, I asked him if I could read a couple of paragraphs to him. He said ok. I asked his opinion. We both agreed that we forgot something that Jennifer told us in MC. We both agreed to go back to reading the book each night together.

We both were emotionally exhausted and were starting to doze. I fell asleep. I woke up later from a nightmare and H wasn’t in bed. I could hear him in the computer room so I assume he was on MB and wasn’t going to get much sleep again.

H called me from work this morning. We only had a couple of minutes to talk but we agreed to write down ground rules, as stated in Surviving an Affair. Each time, before we talk, we will read these rules out loud. I hope that will help us feel safe to start talking again.

I’m still not feeling well and need to lie down again The drive yesterday took a lot out of me, and I always suffer for it greatly the next day. I’m going to continue reading.

TW sorry not a lot of time for me for posting lately.

I am bumping you!!!

Thanks Frognomore. I understand.

I feel like everyone else must think H and I are a lost cause or think we aren’t listening to the advice given us.

Everyone has been giving us some great advice! Sometimes it may not look like we are listening, but we are. We are still learning and it may take a while for us to “get it” and do things right.

Last night H and I went through a section of the book SAA about setting ground rules and wrote them down.

Two of the major things to work on first.

1.We need to make sure we understand the meaning of what the other person is saying.

2.I’ve been trying so hard not to bring up anything about the A and avoiding LB’s and DJ’s. This is causing anger and resentment to build up inside me. I either end up LB’ing or DJ’ing or in total silence. H says the silence is more of a LB to him.

We are also going to go back through our notes from the MC sessions with Jennifer. At least the things we did then helped my H to feel much better.

We are going to learn more about PTSD and try to help me deal with that. Not much, but it’s a start.

So I think that what needs to be done is to figrue out how to communicate and not LB.

I am seeing two people that want to move forward but can't communicate that to each other.

I will say like yourself I couldn't move forward without the truth.

So at this point I would kinda just relax on the A stuff right now. I know that is hard to do but it is probably necessary.

For me once I got the truth and there weren't any gotcha's coming then I could focus on the M recovery stuff.

I found a new credit card in my H's billfold. When I asked him if there is anything he hasn't told me about he said "no". I then told him to get his billfold, (thinking this would be an indication that I know).

He just pulled a couple of receipts out and explained what they were for. I pulled out the credit card and showed it to him and he still lied saying it wasn't a ccard. (Does he think I'm that stupid)?


There was a phone number on the card so he asked me if I wanted him to call and check what kind of card it was. I wrote down the number and said I would call. He then confessed that it was to buy me an Anniversary gift.

I was devistated that he would lie to my face over and over. I'm not very hopeful now that he will tell me the truth about the A.

TW,

UMMMMM if it was really for an Anniversary Gift then why are you upset??????

I believe in Radical Honesty but after my FWW's A she snuck around behind my back and hid some stuff.

So she could buy me a new wedding band.

So if what I am reading is correct you believe he was going to use the card for a gift but you are mad he lied.

DJ on your part. If that is the case then tell him to stop with the time line.

You have to decide if you want to stay in this M or not. If so then worry about recovery When he tells you the truth.

In the mean time you just blew ever getting a suprise from him again.

His good intentions just got him in trouble.

WHHHOOOOAAAAH!!! FROG.....ARE YOU KIDDING ME?????

the problem here isnt he was trying to surprise her.....the problem is he lied about the card and when she found it he continued to lie right to her face. he could have been honest and told her he got it for a surprise....but he lied.

his lying got him in trouble.....not his good intentions. i live with a habitual lier.....i know what this is like. she has to call him on this or he will never change.


"In the mean time you just blew ever getting a suprise from him again." as a bs, i think she has had enough surprises to last a lifetime....i know i did. lol

now, troubled, some of what frog said is on the money....you do seem to have one foot out the door at all times. you have to work on that and the caustic comments....i know its hard....took me forever! lol

No I am not kidding you Nikko. My jokes are much funnier then that post.

I know that he hasn't been as honest as she would like. He is currently working on a timeline of his A so they can hopefully get the truth out in the open and start recvoery.

Was he dishonest? Yes. Was it to hide something? Yes.

However the intention was to be DISHONEST and HIDE a suprise anniversary gift.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to surprise someone without being DISHONES AND HIDING the said surprise.

So the problem is that he has been deceitful in the past, and that causes TW to be hypersensitive to what appears to be a big EN which is Open and Honest conversation but there are times that being dishonest and hiding something are done for VERY GOOD reasons.

IMVHO instead of passing the DJ TW could lament to her FWH that it upsets her that even though he is trying to do something REALLY NICE for her she is suspcious(sp) because of his lack of honesty in the past.

I will say it again my FWW was squirling away money after her A and lying about it. I was suspicious until she showed up with a new wedding band with five diamonds in white gold.

I’m not sure what I did wrong here. Hoping more information may help.

When I said I wasn’t very hopeful that he will tell me the truth about the A, I didn’t say that to my H. I was hurt by the lie H told so that is how I felt at that moment. I was just venting. The truth is I’m cautiously optimistic about H’s timeline over all.

When my H first mentioned getting me an anniversary gift, I told him I would rather not do gifts yet. I would rather we spent time alone together. Time went by and he later mentioned getting me a gift.

We sat down one night, using the rules of good conversation, I explained why I felt uncomfortable with getting an anniversary gift this year. He had given the OW something very personal and intimate for Valentine’s Day. Something from his heart. I have never gotten anything close to being personal or intimate from him in 35 yrs. and he always told me he didn’t even know when Valentine’s Day was.

I explained that I felt our M was too fragile right now and I already feel inadequate. I’m afraid if the gift was anything less than what he gave the OW, I would probably feel that I’m still not as worthy as the OW. I told him I know this probably isn’t true, but it’s just where I’m at right now. I am hypersensitive to gifts right now, especially for our anniversary.

I talked to him calmly and with no LB’s or DJ’s. H understood completely and he thanked me for telling him. I told him he could give me the gift at any other time, just not for our anniversary. He returned the gift anyway.

When I found the new credit card, I didn’t know he got it to purchase the gift. If he would have said that right away it would have ended there. I didn’t accuse or use LB’s or DJ’s when I asked him about the card. I was very calm and respectful. He didn’t have to tell me what the gift was.

When I showed him the ccard and he said he didn’t know what it was, and he would call and see if it’s a ccard, it felt he was calling me stupid. This is a very sensitive area for me. H lies were so far fetched a person had to be really stupid or gullible to believe them. H lied like this constantly for the last 4 yrs. This lie hurt me very deeply. It wasn’t the ccard, it was the lie, one after another.

Wouldn’t anyone else question a new credit card in their FWS’s purse or billfold? This is only the 3rd time I’ve checked his billfold since D-Day. Over a year.

Here is what Dr. Harley says in his book Surviving an Affair. This is from the last paragraph on page 145 and first paragraph on page 146.

“Information about gifts or plans for special occasions may be the rare exception to the rule of future honesty. But in the recovery of your relationship after an affair, I would not be dishonest even under these special conditions until your marriage is completely restored.”

“When you plan to give each other gifts, you should explain your plans and then follow the POJA (Ask, How do you feel about what I am planning to give you?). Honesty in your marriage is so important right now that you cannot afford to keep secrets from each other even when they may seem harmless.”

If I did things wrong, please tell me because I’m trying so hard to follow what Dr. Harley says in his book. I know I make mistakes but doesn’t everyone? That’s why H and I are here.

I do see myself as having one foot out the door but I’m trying to get that foot in, not out. Maybe it’s self preservation, my fear of being hurt again. I have been beaten down so much over the last 4 yrs. I’m struggling to make it through the next hr. I feel like I’m hanging from a rope and the rope is fraying.

TW,

With that explanation Nothing. LOL.

I think I have said it before that sometimes getting info out of you is like pulling teeth.

I know you didn't make the comment about getting the truth out of your H to him.

I am very much a "perception is reality" type of person.

I think someone's perception is their reality.

So when I read that you perception in essence is your H isn't going to be honest.

I know I should have been very suspicious of my FWW but instead I went the route of innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent. So when something smelled wrong I investigated and if she was guilty shame on her. IF SHE wasn't shame on me.

Now for the gift part. People do stupid crazy things in an A. You are assuming "I think based on your H's lack of communication" that the gift was all that special.

I will tell you my FWW got her Belly Button Pierced for the OM.

I don't know why, I don't care why anymore. The reason being she did that for him but I got her.

If I said I don't want anything from her unless it is bigger then that well I think I would be pretty hosed.

I can't think of many things that would qualify. Since I am the judge and jury on that I could disqualify just about anything.

What I think I am trying to say is maybe look at your FWW as a GReat person that did a bad thing not a Bad person because they did that thing.

At some point he needs to know there is redemtion.

Triggers! Triggers! Triggers! How do I handle this one?

H’s favorite uncle passed away and the funeral was Friday 5 hrs. away. We haven’t seen many of the relatives for well over a year. (H lost 60 lbs. During the A. Was supposed to be walking but was having SF with OW instead.) No one knows about H’s A except for my sister and our children

Everyone commented on the weight H lost and asked how he did it. He told them he watched what he ate and walked 5-7 miles every day. (If they only knew the real truth of it all…ha). It bothered me so much each time he would tell his weight loss “story”. The 2nd time I just had to walk away.

I’m hoping I won’t have to hear his weight loss story too many more times.

We got home from the funeral at 12:30 Sat. morning. Had to get up early to help DIL with a sale until 1 pm. H and I got ready and went to a friend’s birthday party 2 hrs. away. I fell asleep on the way home so I’m not sure what time we got home, but it was late.

I’m sure H may tell you that things have been going fairly well. I have been trying. I thought plan A was supposed to help the BS feel better too. Then why do I feel so rotten?

H said we were going to go through the timeline this last weekend, but it has been too busy. He said we could go through it Sun. evening. I didn’t want to do that because I felt I needed a day or two to absorb everything he tells me.

I’m getting involved in a new project at work that is very technical. My mind has to be sharp. As time goes on, it’s getting more difficult for me to handle this A stuff. I feel us drifting farther apart all the time and seem more distant now than before and during the A.

Getting tired of it all and just want the pain to go away. It seems like I am just walking around in a daze. Not much emotion except sadness. People can no longer call me “Sunshine”. The name “Zombie” is more fitting now. I’m trying to stay positive, but seem to be losing the battle.

My H wants to go through the timeline this weekend. We were hoping we could go out of town so there wouldn’t be any interruptions but we aren’t sure if it’s going to be possible. If this doesn’t work out, we are going to tell our children not to disturb us on Fri. evening and Sat.

I made an appt. yesterday for IC for myself but can’t get in to see her until July.

I just wish Mother’s Day wasn’t this weekend. It’s going to be a very difficult weekend and we both could use some words of encouragement and last minute advice.

My FWW went through the timeline exercise in late 2005. I think it helped that I did a bit of preparation work beforehand, putting together all the associated dates, places, etc. that I did know about. Also had at hand credit card information and a few other things I thought might help ease things along.

I think it was a helpful exercise. I basically jotted everything down in an "affair journal", and saved that away somewhere. Bear in mind though that for several months afterwards you may be affected by any particular "details" that come up during the discussion. I was prepared, and yes it happened, but I got over them (I think, LOL).

It really helps if you control your responses and don't attack during disclosure of any details you may not have heard before. Concentrating on jotting the details down helped me to avoid doing that. Something else might work for you.

Thank you ManInMotion for the ideas.
I am trying to prepare myself mentally and emotionally for this. H has been more quiet this week and hasn’t been sleeping much. All the secrets and lies are taking their toll on both of us. I pray he can finally tell me the truth so we can start to recover.

I made up cards for both of us to use during the talk. We will also discuss “rules” using the POJA before we start talking. On one card I wrote the words “need a break”. On another one I wrote “take a deep breath” and “think before speaking”.

On a card for my H, I wrote the words “I love you with all my heart”. Also a card with something his MC told him this week. “Be honest. Even if you don’t want to, be honest anyway”.

If I have questions about something he tells me, I’m going to write them down in a notebook to ask later so I don’t interrupt him while he’s talking. I can also jot down the answers or details I didn’t know about.

We also thought of recording our talk, at least to start with. That way we can hear how we say things to each other and our tone of voice.

After this weekend, I’ll know if we have a M.

Update....going through FWH's timeline.

Instead of my H going through his timeline, he wanted me to ask questions and he would answer them. I'm not sure why he wanted to start out this way, but I went along with it.

We went through our "rules" to avoid LB's and DJ's, etc. I started to ask some questions and he answered them honestly. (My gut feeling). We took breaks as needed.

I had trouble asking my next question so I asked if he would take over for awhile from his timeline. He did. He started having a difficult time talking about when the kissing started.(I thought to myself...how is he going to get through the rest if talking about when the kissing started bothers him this much?)

I told him this is difficult for us both and held his hand. I remained very calm and in control so far. I asked him why he let the platonic kisses continue. I think there may have been some frustration in my voice so H asked if I needed a break. I said "yes".

I told my H I felt he was being honest and thanked him. During our "break", I felt emotionally exhausted. I think I even fell asleep for an hour or so. We had a nice dinner and just spent the evening together.

Sunday,we started back on the timeline again.H seemed to start out by trying to avoid the subject completely. He said, "after the first kiss, things progressed into SF".

Like I didn't know that? What does that mean? -No I didn't say this, I was thinking it.

When I asked him to explain, I got the same answer. Then, he said he needed a break. I went to play games on the computer for a while, then had to lay down again. H asked to continue, but I couldn't.

We continued talking last night. Much of what he has been telling me for the last 15 months has been lies. He even lied about the most insignificant things. That almost hurts more because I can't understand why he would do that.

We are going to continue the talk this evening. H said I'm doing very well at avoiding LB's and DJ's.

I'm afraid to tell him how I feel because he takes everything I say as a LB or DJ. How do I tell him how I feel without making him feel this way?

Am I doing something wrong?

TW,

No it sounds like you are doing great. I have missed a few of your posts because you post infrequently and I only check in during work hours. Sometimes I miss your posts completely.

It sounds like your H is really trying. It sounds like you are being accepting and not trying to LB or DJ.

I don't know if it happens in your case but be aware sometimes it isn't what you say it is how you say it. LOL.

Sometimes it may be your tone. Just something to think about.

The other thing is it sounds like yoru H is trying to be Radically Honest. HE may forget something but that doesn't mean he is lying it means he forgot something.

Sounds like you are getting what you wanted. Are your ready to move on?

Thanks Frognomore,

H does seem to be doing as well as can be expected with the talks.

I was doing well not LB'ing or DJ'ing until late yesterday afternoon. I feel so bad and told H I am sorry many times.

First, I have to say this....The stress from the A and having to wait 15 months for the truth is taking it's toll on me. I fainted at work yesterday morning and H had to come get me and take me to the doctor. H stayed with me the rest of the day. (This deposited many love units). I was surprised that he did this. Prior to this, he always dropped me off at home and went back to work.

We did some talking. I told him I have some major things I have to deal with and I'm not sure how. Hoping IC can help me with the feeling of being inadequate. You see, the OW has a near perfect body, just a very ugly face. Ugh! She is thinner, no flab or stretch marks and doesn't sag anywhere.

I know that her body is the only thing she has going for her but I still feel compared. H can say he doesn't compare, but there are other things in our life of SF that, IMO, prove otherwise. Waiting for IC for this also.

I thought I was just telling him my feelings. He tried comforting me by saying I am wonderful but it didn't help. In fact it made me more angry because he has always said that to me before the A. I should have just let it drop because he was in a no-win situation until I deal with it in IC. I was wrong here and will learn from this mistake.

Since he had been lying until now, I thought I would ask a couple of previous questions. One was if he ever had another A. He said "No". I asked if he has talked or seen OW since the one time I know about. He said "No" again.

I had to ask again to see if I would get the same answer.

Things got better late evening after I took a nap.

We still have a lot of talking to do to get through the A timeline. It just seems to be taking so long. Reading other threads, I see where they told everything in one evening, day or weekend.

Is this normal? One weekend would be so much easier to handle.

You may be right but that means you have to not take breaks.

I know you have needed breaks so it is at your guys pace.

I will say he probably doesn't want to go over it 50 times so doing it at a pace that lets you digest it makes a little sense.

None of this is normal. There is no blueprint per say. There is you doing what you need to do. For each person that of course is different.

YOu can help the DJing and LBing by the way. Just don't. I know it is hard not too.

By the way there is a slight tone to your "he has lied for so long"

Yes he has. It adds insult to injury, It is another thing that in order to move on you will need to forgive.

Remember now he is trying. What he is doing now should matter not. Try to keep an eye focused on today.

I'm assuming my H said this in his post. It is something I have said to him. As far as tone, it means I feel it has taken soooooo long to start getting the truth and I am VERY, VERY tired, physically, mentally and emotionally to the point of not wanting to live anymore. It's not just a fact of wanting the pain to stop, I NEED it to stop.

There are so many more permanent scars to our M that wouldn't be there if he had come clean long ago, but, the past can't be changed.

I feel like I'm hanging from a thread and it's fraying. The only thing I remember after attempting suicide on D-Day is the peaceful place I was at. I was floating towards something. It was warm and very dark but I wasn't afraid or alone. I felt love all around me and was at total peace.

Then, I woke up in the hospital angry at the fact my life was saved. The nightmare has continued 24/7, day and night (constant nightmares) since. I am unable to escape the pain for even a minute.

There are times I long for some of the peace I felt on D-Day to escape the pain even for an hour. Ok, back to reality...I am tired, I just want the truth so I can put the pieces of the puzzle together in my mind.

As far as forgiving him, I'm not able to even think about that yet.

I do see my H trying. I just pray that he will be honest through the rest of the timeline. I will continue to work on the LB's and DJ's.

TW,

No he didn't say that. I forgot he even posted to be honest and then after I posted this I remembered. I just picked it up.

Let me say this, there has to be the willingness to forgive and move forward.

He made a mistake! Absolutely. You can chose to never forgive or to forgive.

From what you are saying your H has changed. He has picked up a lot of slack. Please see he is trying and if you still can't fogive and move forward with him that is OK.

It is a choice pure and simple.

I had a general rule. I loved my FWW. I thought she diserved a good husband. If I couldn't be that because of her A I would get a D.

If I could forgive her I had a chance.

TW I know what you are going through it took a long time for me.

To be honest I don't think my FWW would have done the timeline like your H has. I didn't need that much detail though just general overall honesty without minimization.

Good luck.

I'm not saying I will never be able to forgive him, I'm just not at a place where I can do that yet. We are still in the beginning of the timeline.

I'm trying to be a good wife and learn from my mistakes like the LB's and DJ's yesterday.

Have I said or done anything to offend anyone? It seems Frognomore is the only one willing to offer advice.

Is my M that hopeless? Just thought I would ask.

It's been a very difficult 2 weeks. We have been going throught H's timeline when we can, maybe 2-4 hrs. a week.

Our doctor is now seeing both H and I every 2 weeks. Sees H one week and me the next. He is keeping a close watch on us and how things are going since H and I are depressed. He changed H's AD's to help him through this. I'm already at the highest dosage of AD's and there is only so much meds can do until we get through this.

Some times I am strong and determined to make it through this. Other times, like right now, the pain is so great, I just want to give up and die.

troubled.....hang in there. we are praying for you....well i am anyway.

i think the problem with your posts and why you dont get much feedback is that you dont post much info. i get wanting to be private on the net, but in order to have an opinion, we kinda have to know whats going on. plus for most people getting it "all out" is cathartic.

TW,
Hang in it is all you can do.

Remember this is a roller coaster ride. There will be ups and downs.

Is your MC seeing both of you? Or are you going to the same IC?

I tried both and to be honest for me it was better not going to our MC for IC.

Thank you Nikko and Frognomore!

I will try to give more info. Sometimes I'm not sure what info is helpful. Questions help.

Not much happens in our life on a day to day basis other than going to work and coming home and working on our home business.

There is only one thing my H and I haven't talked about here. That is because we fear for my(our) life from OW. I will post it someday but will need to delete it shortly after for our protection. Right now we just want to consentrate on our M and our healing.

My parents are elderly and I take care of my Dad's medications, wash clothes, cut, perm and fix my mom's hair and pay bills. My H and I mow the lawn and fix things around the house. I have a sister that helps with these things also but lives 2 hrs. away. She helps with these and also takes care of things that I'm unable to do.

My H and I see the same psy. doctor that prescribes our AD's. He is the one that is seeing us alternately every 2 wks. My H sees a seperate IC. I have an appt. with an IC but my first appt. isn't until July so I haven't had any IC yet.

We stopped MC with Jennifer because I was unable to move from square 1 without the truth. Talking about EN's and LB's was only making me more angry and withdrawn. If I would have had the truth, we would have flown through MC with Jennifer and in a much better place than we are now.

MB has been the only support I have until my IC starts in July.

H wanted to talk about the timeline last night and I'm finding it's becoming more difficult to talk about. I'm not sure why because H said the worst of it is out.

I'm not sure what to make of this....
Shortly after DDay, my H told me he had the A because he couldn't remember what it was like to have SF with someone else. Now he says that was a lie. He now says he just said anything to get me off his back. Why would he say that then minimize it now? What am I to believe?

It just seems like some things are being minimized from what he has told me over the first 14 months after DDay. Don't get me wrong, I feel he is telling me the truth about many things. There is still some things said that I'm not comfortable with yet.

I'm hoping these will come out in the rest of the timeline. I just have to buck up and be able to get through the talks.

Things went downhill over the weekend.

I told H I would like the same time for SF as he gave OW. (I'm trying to put it delicately here.) He told me he gives me more. Not according to the cell phone records and the time he got home every morning. (Cell calls were to tell the other person they were ready to meet for SF).

Sorry, I guess I'll have to be very blunt. Why able to have lengthy SF with OW and not with me? I don't understand.

H came up with many excuses until he realized what he said would get him in more trouble. One excuse was he was having SF more often with OW so SF lasted longer.

(H has been telling me for 15 months he and OW had SF 2-3 times a week.) H and I, 2-3 times a day. I asked him if he wanted to stick with that excuse. He declined quickly on that one.

I feel more inadequate now than I have in my entire life.

Sorry to be so blunt. There was no other way to explain it.

tw---im sorry---i hadnt seen your earlier post. my life is nuts right now....i dont really have time to post right now but i wanted you to know i saw this and will be back later...

Ok, so he is still stuck on stupid. My Xws said stuff he had to eat. The taste was horribly bitter but he had to eat them....

My question to you is if you are in recovery, what is your H doing to help you heal? How is he helping you get closure?

L.

i have one question right now......why in gods name is it taking so long to go thru the timeline? you pushed for this for so long...and now it is dragging on forever to get it out.....its like dying from a thousand needles. MAKE THE TIME AND GET THRU IT...BOTH OF YOU!


" He now says he just said anything to get me off his back. " that is probably the most honest answer right now. the why of his affair will come.....my husband said some pretty awful things on d-day....why did he do it...."she was hot!" why did he do it....."i wanted to hurt you(ME) in the worse way possible." i could go on and on....the real why----he was a selfish entitled [censored] that didn't realize what he had.....sometimes he still doesnt fully get it. he is a work in progress.....

I suggest that you stop drawing comparisons between yourself and the OW like that. If you want SF to last longer to meet YOUR needs, that's fine. But don't ask for it simply because that's what happened with the OW. I don't think that's very healthy at all.



Do you actually *want* more lengthy SF to meet your needs, or do you want it just because the OW got it?



Whoa - you're having SF with him 2-3 times a day? And you feel inadequate??

Just for comparison purposes, my W and I enjoy SF about 6/7 times a month. It's not marathon SF, but it works just fine for us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

TW,

Thank you for giving more info and sharing your concerns.

Orchid - "Ok, so he is still stuck on stupid."

ROFLMAO...this is so apt. I'm using this in my head from now on...thank you, Orchid!!

Please take the advice here...do not choose to compare yourself to OW...his A wasn't about you not being enough...it was about HIM not being enough for himself. You're real. A was fantasy.

Choose wisely your beliefs...see your choices. You can heal all the way...you really can.

LA

I agree with Nikko get the timeline out and done with.

MIM is absolutely correct as well.

Is he on the clock when you have SF?

I mean sometimes when the FWW and I have SF it is long and slow. Sometimes it is fast and furious.

I try to please her every time but not always successful.

Sometimes she is pleased rather quickly and others it takes longer.

That usually dictates the duration.

Because of familiarity and the fact I know her well it takes me less time to please her then when we first met.

In addition to that with two kids and a life sometimes we forgo any of the other stuff we used to do before hand like undressing each other.

It is pretty much we both jump in bed naked and start.

So it is different then it was but better because of our time together.

I think when you look and compare in your M where you were then it would be the same.

If your idea is for your H to do every thing the same with you he did with her you will fail in recovery.

I know I wouldn't want to be compared to the OM and I refuse to do it.

Just for the shear fact I would never sleep with a M'd women makes me a better man then him.

Comparing myself to him or what he is or was is a slight against myself.

Thank you everyone. My H will be home in a few minutes so I don't have time to post answers right now. I'll try to post something later tonight.

still waiting.........

It was a very busy weekend. Thank you for all the responses. I'm going to try to answer them all at once.

My H has changed in many ways. Before D-Day, he was emotionally and verbally abusive in many ways. The angry tone of voice he had is gone. He actually listens to me when I talk. He would do everything for me if I would let him. He actually likes going shopping with me now.(He hated it before). This helps, but only the truth will give me closure.

Still stuck on stupid? Maybe just a part of him but to me it's an important part.

My H has lied to me for so many years. He is much more trueful now but I think it's very easy for him to slip back into old ways if I don't confront him.

I did catch him in a lie Friday night. I checked the history on my computer and it showed someone read my thread on MB. H denied it and got very angry at me. I didn't accuse, I just asked.

I don't think he understands the permanent damage he has caused to our M with all the lies he has told since D-Day. Things are still becoming more clear to him all the time but he's not quite there yet.

The timeline has brought out more truth, but, some things I feel he is minimizing. The timeline is dragging on and it is both our faults. This coming weekend we are going out of state for the weekend so there are no interruptions.

We are going to get through it once and for all.

For a few years the medication I was on all but killed my labido. When we did have SF it usually lasted long enough for H to get what he wanted/needed. After SF, he would say "OK, let's get to work". When it did last longer, it was great.

A couple of months before D-Day, my meds were changed and my labido was back but my H didn't want me because he was in the A at the time. We didn't see each other more that 15-30 min. a day.

A couple of months after D-Day we were having SF 2-3 times a day. It continued for quite a while then gradually declined to once a day, and still is declining.

The SF is very different now. He spends more time now on SF with me which is great, but in other ways it's not as fulfilling. Lacking in the sense of the act itself. (How's that for blunt?) I'm having a very difficult time with this.

From what he has been telling me for the last 15 months since D-Day about SF with

the OW, I'm not getting anywhere near the time (the act) he gave to her. No, I'm not watching the clock during SF, well, ok, one time I did. I'm not asking for a marathon.

I don't want to do the things he did with OW. I know OW taught him how to control his breathing so he would last longer. He said there were no "preliminary" activities and almost no talking, just the act.

So what did they do for the daily 1 1/2 hrs., sometimes more. One time it was 3 hrs. Even with driving time, etc. it doesn't add up.

This makes me feel so inadequate. Why or how can he give one woman more than another?

I know I shouldn't compare myself to the OW. She is a user, incapable of love, and uses men for money. A psychopath. She looks like she is such a hard worker when she actually has different men doing her work for her and paying for things. She is a pro at manipulation, lies and the damsel-in-distress routine. In return, she gives them SF. Did I mention she is very ugly? She is like a tomboy with no makeup and doesn't fix her hair.

I am a very honest person with strong morals. I was a very hard worker before being struck with a chronic illness. When I was 16, I was asked to be a model so I must have an ok face. I did gain weight 65 lbs. from medication I started taking. I have since lost 40 lbs. after the meds were changed. The A diet helped too.

I'm having a very hard time understanding how a man can choose to have SF with someone so ugly and gross!

Another reason why I feel inadequate is the OW has had many partners, many hundreds if I were to guess, so she is experienced.

My H is the only partner I've ever been with. Could this have contributed to his A? He always told me I was the best he's ever had. Maybe that was a lie too.

I'm not sure what was true in our 30 yrs of M. Everyone says the A was the fantasy, but I'm finding our entire M was just a fantasy in my mind. H said looking back, he didn't love me as much as he thought he did. He says he didn't know me nor took the time to get to know me. He thought all the things I said to him and did for him was just because it was my Wifely duty and I didn't really feel that way.

H is talking about writing one last post on MB then not posting anymore. He feels kind of beat up. I don't want to see him stop because everyone here is getting through to him and he needs the support. It's a long slow progress but it is helping. The biggest change in him was after he starting posting here.

Sometimes it may look like we aren't taking the advice here, but we are. It just takes some of us longer than others.

Sorry for rambling. I just needed to vent.

how does he feel beat up....he hasnt posted in forever?

He has only told me a few things people have posted to him so I'm not sure why. Last night he did say he was going to write something to post. He was up most of the night so he may have already.

Don't take me wrong. He may feel beat up just because of where our M is at right now. It may have nothing to do with MB at all. I notice he gets this way when he has something weighing on his mind that he is afraid to tell me the truth about. Because we are going out of state this weekend to finish the timeline, he has been very nervous and preoccupied.

Food for thought....BS's always help other BS's on MB, he doesn't understand why FWS's don't help out other FWS's more often. I have wondered this myself.

FWS's farther in recovery have so much to offer those just starting the recovery process. We know they are lurking here all the time. Wouldn't more M's be helped by helping the FWS? Sorry, I'm being analytical again.

he hasn't posted enought to gain their attention.

i have some friends who were waywards on here and if he starts posting again....regularly(that is the key) im sure they will help him.

hang in ther TW....you are doing great.

I want to thank everyone for everything you tried to do for me and our M. I can't take the lies anymore. H can keep the secrets he shares with the OW. As of tonight I know he had no intention of ever telling me the truth.


I can't take the pain anymore!!! I'm done!!!!!!!!!

what the he// happened?????

Nikko,

From reading both threads it seems as though we have a person that has lied that may want to tell the truth but TW isn't creating a safe environment.

TW I have read your statements and quite frankly it seems as though you know he lied and then when he tells you the lie you say see I knew you were a liar. Of course he did.

If he is now giving you the truth you asked for he is showing you that he will do what you want and need to try to recover.

Within the truth now you are comparing what he did with her to you.

He has NC he is out of the Fog it seems and he understands it was just an illusion with her. He chose you. He is with you for a reason.

Look around this board at others who have WS's that arent' at home. Haven't quit the A.

You are miles ahead of them. Do you realize how many BS's here would surely jump into your shoes.

Dealing with old lies not new one's.

I told your H that he messed up but it doesn't entitle him to a life of misery.

You need to decide if this is something you want to hold over him or if it is something you want to try to move past.

If it is over and you will never move past this you should end it.

What he did wasn't fair or right. You got lucky finding a FWS that came to his senses. Seems you don't see that.
You need to be fair. Let him go if you can't get past this.

I would go to an IC.

I have already processed and put away most of the things he told me in the timeline. I haven't held any of this over his head.

The issues we are having currently are about things he has refused to talk about since d-day. Every time I have asked, he changes the subject. We agreed for me to let him know when he does this. I did this last night several times but it only ended in frustration as usual.

The SF issue is not from the timeline. I'm not going to dwell on that issue anymore. I'll just learn to live with the fact he can remember what pleased OW but can't remember what pleased me for 30 yrs.

One example: If you read the 15 Steps of an Affair, H is telling me it went from step 1 to step 15. Am I supposed to say "OK, thank you for telling me the truth"?

(Sorry, frustration here. Not intended toward anyone on MB. I just need to vent.)

If I'm supposed to do this, we would have stopped 15 months ago at "We're just friends". "Oh, OK, thank you for telling me the truth."

I'm confused! Do I only have 3 choices here? Believe him, leave or just live with it and pretend I'm happy and in recovery? What happened to RO?

How do I get past something I don't know about? I need to know the facts in order to get over them.

Thanks for letting me vent.

TW,

No I am not saying that but the human mind is not perfect. He cannot remember every single detail.

Some he may remember after prodding. Some things may not be that important in his mind.

I don't know but it seems to me that he wants go finish the timeline. Let him go through it ask questions then move on or don't.

Not tell me 5 parts now then let me digest for 2 weeks then 10 parts. Then digest for 3 weeks.

The SF thing is going overboard. IF he doesn't please you the deal with that. Not what you think about him with OW.

I have been with some women and you could sneeze on them and they would get off while others took a lot of work. No two really the same.

Do you want to be the OW? I have read how your H works a job then works the busienss then helps you because you are sick.

How about credit for that.

He left the OW. HE has had NC then you call the OW and say he is yours.

How is that a safe environment.

If you are going to threaten him when you feel like you are being lied to he isn't safe.

You are not creating that and if I were him I would probably not be honest too.

TW where can I find this?

Here is one link I have. It's also in Pepperband's thread named "Notable Posts"

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Number=2868483

troubled....what happened?

Thank you Nikko....

I don't have the strength anymore to wait for him to be honest. I've spent the entire M waiting for him. Waiting for him to need me, waiting for him to come home, waiting for him to have time for me, waiting, waiting, waiting.

Now, I'm supposed to just be happy that I have a H because so many other WS's are with the OW. I'm supposed to be an honest, faithful, happy wife, meet H's EN's and WAIT for him to tell me the truth. That's what I did the first 30 yrs and look where it got me.

I think things I've said here have been taken out of context.

- I have an appt. for IC July 3rd. All appts. for counseling are a min. of 6 wks. to 3 months out around here.

- I don't want to be like the OW. Yuck!

- As far as SF, I don't want my H to do the same things with me as he did with OW. Eeewww!

I want him to do things now like he used to do with me.

- The H I fell in love with is dead and gone. I'm left with this person I don't know.

- I would much rather be physically abused than go through the he77 I'm going through.

- Yes, I did lose it the other night. Everyone has a breaking point and I was at mine. The gloves were off and the LB's flew. I couldn't pretend any longer.

I told H if he wanted to keep the secrets between him and OW to just let me know but I can't take the lies anymore. I told him I would even dial the OW's cell for him, which I did, but I hung up right away. It must have been just long enough for our number to show up on her cell because the OW called right back. She left msg. on our answering machine.

It was just "Hello, hello, is anyone there"? She said this a couple of times.


My life since Jan. 2003....

1. We bought our home based business.

2. My mom had a stroke.

3. Dad had emergency surgery.

4. While staying at our house, Dad started bleeding from a different surgery he just had.

5. I was diagnosed with my illness and dr. couldn't figure out how I was still alive.

6. Only able to work 5 hrs in 2 wks. New boss on my case daily.

7. Found out sister#1 kept all money from a business venture we started together.

8. Sister#1 and brother#1 were trying to get parents out of their house so they could buy it cheap.

9. Diagnosed with an STD for the first time.

10. I was involved in a serious car accident. I couldn't use my right leg or left arm.

Emergency room gave me crutches.(try that sometime). I had injury to my eye and a back injury that didn't show up at that time.

Oh, I was coming from the dr. when accident happened. I just found out I had the STD for the 2nd time.

11. I was diagnosed with an STD for the 3rd time.

12. Had eye surgery to repair damage from car accident. H dumped me off at home after we got home and left.

13. Discoverd H's A. Attempted suicide, was abused by a doctor in the hospital.

14. Discovered OW's plan for me and OW's BF to "disappear".

15. Discovered OW still has "plans" for me. I'm no longer scared because I give up. She wins. Whatever happens, happens. I don't have the strength anymore.

16. Sister#2 and I are still trying to protect mom and dad from sister#1 and brother#1. The real problems from them 2 money-hungry scumbags.

My car is packed. I was going to leave last night, but I was very weak. H and I were talking but I fainted again so had to stay. Still didn't feel well today. I will be leaving tomorrow.

After tomorrow, I won't have a computer. I'm leaving both of them behind because they are needed for the business. I will have to buy another one.

Thank you Frognomore for everything you tried to do for our M. You are a great person and I have a lot of respect for you. You never gave up on us.

Nikko, thank you for your prayers.

Everyone else, thank you for your support and 2x4's. I did hear everything you said and tried very hard. Sometimes the person has been knocked down too many times and just can't recover.

Wow, that is quite a timeline. I suggest you get some personal counseling to deal with all of the losses. They tend to pile up and become overwhelming.

Keep in touch, even if you have to go to the library. I DO think you need at least a break from all of this.

What happened to me was that the lying and cr*p went on so long that one day I woke up and just didn't love my WH anymore. Sad, but it happens.

that post sums up a lot.....but it doesn't explain "what happened"?

i pray you are still reading and havent gone. please tell us what happened that led you to lb'ing and letting it fly. we cannot help you if we dont know what is going on.

if i was to respond to just the above....the one thing that jumps out at me is this...

"I told H if he wanted to keep the secrets between him and OW to just let me know but I can't take the lies anymore"

was this about the timeline? i know you have put it off as much as him....so how is it all him?(see without an explaination, it seems you have put it off as much as him and now you want answers and he wasnt ready, or giving them to you and you blew! this is why explaining what happened is important....cause i dont think you blew for no reason..)
or.....did he lie about something again?

i do know what it feels like...it took years for hubby and i to really get to the truth...and to be honest with you....i have no idea if i got all the truth or not....how would i ever know that? i finally got to a point that i gave up trying to get it all and accepted what i had. it sucks but it was what i had....maybe it is all the truth,,,maybe not....i would have no way to ever know. but i was ready to move on.....and i did slowly.

Thank you Believer and Nikko. I was ready to leave on Sat. but my plans fell through. Couldn't find key to olddest sons house and he is out of state for at lease 2 more wks. That is the only place I had to go. I'm stuck here for now.

What happened is this...I have asked H a couple of questions since D-Day and he would never answer them. He said he is being honest now but still avoids answering these couple of questions. He changes the subject every time. (You see, these questions are ones he can't use the excuse "I can't remember").

He told me he answered them but he didn't, he changed the subject each time we went back to it. There are other things from the timeline we already talked about a couple of weeks ago where the facts changed again. I told him I am more confused now than before.

The timeline was supposed to be the truth. I kept my word and didn't hold things he told me against him. He could feel safe telling me anything. It was ending up to be more of the same crap I've been getting since D-Day.

The more we talked and the more he changed the subject, the more frustrated I became. I snapped, and the LB's flew.

I love H with all my heart, but the lies just show me that his secrets with OW are more important than our M. H's words don't match his actions.

Yes, I have put off talking about the timeline on some nights because there were always interruptions. Phone calls, family dropping in, etc., etc. I couldn't handle talking for 30 min. then pretending we're happy for a couple of hours then go back to talking. That is why we had decided to go away for the weekend...no interruptions. But if he is just going to keep up the lies, then why continue?

Getting crumbs of truth over several weeks, is too painful for me. It like I'm bleeding to death and he is giving me bandaids.

sounds all too familiar to me...unfortunately. so he is avoiding.....

ok...you blew and were gonna leave....did you have a plan? other than go to son's house....what is your plan? how will you survive if you really do go for good? have you worked out that plan yet? if not.....and you are serious, then you need to figure out a plan for separating.

now, onto him.....unfortunately i have no magic bullet for you.(to make him wake up and get it) mine took years and me finally saying...goodbye, im done.

my hubby also needed lots of counseling to get to the point of not avoiding....and it was long and painful for me. i called out to some friends to come and possibly help with all of this for you and your hubby....

TW

I wonder if something my IC did with me might help you get the information you need.
I was a WS and I was petrified of telling my H the details which he wanted. He was quite rightly very angry and getting more angry over my avoidance. You see now I realise he needed that to be able to forgive, some spouses want lots of detail, others don't but still want the facts.
I felt that if I told him the details he would leave.
If I didn't tell him the details he was pretty determined to leave, but still I avoided. Why? FEAR
So I went to my IC and she suggested that I ask him to put his questions in writing to me so I could put the info he wanted, needed, in written form to him. He felt I was cracked and was a few snaga's (sausages) short of a BBQ as he told me, but he did and I gave him the details. It was HORRIBLE yes, it took me days, but I did it & it worked for us.
You see sometimes its easier to write about it than to tell someone in person, eapecially when you are so ashamed and feel so dirty and lower than a slug under a rock. After that we were able to talk about it, slowly at first of course but it became easier to talk, not eaiser to handle for some time, but not so hard to talk about.
Fear TW is a huge barrier to a WS wanting to be a FWS, the truth of events is felt to be so 'terrible' that the BS will never get over it and never forgive. Fear because the BS quite rightly does have the right to say 'goodbye' 'get lost' etc and the [F]WS knows it all too well.

Perhaps this is a method to get around your H's fear, avoidance, and yes self denial of what he did. I was going to post to your H the info above & suggest this to him as a way to put down the TRUTH, not what he thinks you want to hear but the TRUTH, because until you have that recovery cannot begin.

AW

Nikko...
No, I don't have a plan. My job will be done the end of December so I won't have an income. No one else will hire me because I'm sick so much. Dr. wants me to go on disability, but I don't want to sit at home and become a hermit. I don't think I can survive long on my own. H's A totally destroyed us financially and ruined our credit. I live one hr. at a time.

My illness is progressing. I'm starting to feel numbness in one of my arms and in both my hands. I haven't told H this yet and don't want him to know right now because I don't want him to feel sorry for me. He already feels like he caused my illness and telling him this right now won't help anything.

I know I'm not being RA about this one thing. I just don't want to give him the idea I'm helpless and can't make it on my own. I hope this makes sense.

All I wanted from H is honesty about A. It was the only thing that could prove he wanted me and our M more than the OW. H always put me last in his life. (H agrees he did this.) I need him to prove to me our M is 1st in his life.

He told me I know everything about the A. Then, when we talk he says he wants to be honest but sometimes has problems with it. He said the lies just end up coming out of his mouth. Several times he has noticed this and has corrected what he said. This is an improvement on his part.

H has made so many wonderful changes but my #1 EN is honesty. If that would have been the only change, I would have been more than happy and our M would have been in recovery long ago.

Aussieswife...
I'm so glad to hear from you again. I wanted to tell you that you were right on a previous post to me. H has admitted so far that the PA started just after our anniversary. My gut tells me it may have been before that by the way he treated me. I'm thinking it may have been a year earlier than he's admitting to because omething just doesn't feel right.

I did write down questions at one time. He spent 3 months answering them. That was a few months after D-Day. As we were going through the timeline, I was writing down the questions I ask and his answer. If there was something we needed to go back later to discuss, I put an arrow by that question.

It may be worth a try again. I will start tonight.

Thanks. I better get to work now.

Hi TW

I am sorry you are unwell however pls remember that you need to look after yourself and if disability is the best thing for you then perhaps you should consider it. I do understand the feeling of being home and being lost though. However maybe you could do some church volunteering or something like that if your job is ending. It is important not to be a 'prisoner' in your home, especially right now.

TW from my reading of your H posts he does want the M, knows what he's done but is having a case of 'stupid' right now. He just can't bring himself to admit it to himself I think because that = I am a BIG jerk & I failed my wife, family and M. I had trouble with this and truthfully still do so at times. Its not a nice feeling to realise you have failed those you love by your OWN choice.

The bottom line is that right now at this time he has to give you what you need to move forward towards recovery. That may be a personal recovery or both a M & personal recovery. So I do hope the written questions will work.

with care
AW

AW,

It's helpful to get insight from a FWS because I have trouble understand where my H's mind was in order for an A to start and where it is now.

I was the one that was going through a daily emotional He77 for several years. He was in the doctors office with me when I was diagnosed with my illness and the doctor said I shouldn't be alive. It was like he didn't listen and thought I was just getting lazy.

It was during this time his EA started with OW. OW is the girlfriend of H's friend. The first time they came to our house for a Christmas party, OW kissed my H as they left. She continued to kiss him every Christmas or when H did anything to help them. H thought that's just the way she is. (She does this to every man she finds to be attractive or a future candidate to use for money, etc.)

These kisses were not the peck on the lips meant to be a thank you. The kisses lasted about 3 seconds. Doesn't sound like much, but if you time it.....she meant it as "I'm available if you are".

What bothers me is my H never told me about these kisses other than the first one. She always kissed him when I wasn't in the room or when he went to their house without me.

I don't know where I went wrong. H said I met his EN's but he didn't believe that I loved him that much. All the nice things I did and said over the previous 30 yrs. meant very little to him.

H never showed any romance toward me. He said he didn't know how. He had no problem showing romance to OW. I saw it in his eyes. That's when I knew something was going on.

H promised me we would talk last night. Our son and DIL came with the grandchildren for dinner but we could have talked after they left. H found many other things to do. I felt he was stalling. At 11:00 PM, he said lets talk. We talked for 30 min. but was a waste of time.

I got the same speech...I love you so much...I'm so sorry I hurt you.... blah, blah, blah. We just don't get anywhere. H says one thing but his actions shows me the oposite.

I don't get my hopes up because I'm usually let down. H said we are going to talk tonight. He said he has nothing planned. We'll see.

He is going to call Steve Harley today because his current IC isn't helping him.

TW
one thing, one thing you MUST get hold of and accept is this .. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG to cause your H to have an affair. he MUST own his actions, I mean did you push him towards the OW with a shotgun? No I don't think so. He, like I, CHOSE to address "our" issues or problems in a totally wrong way. WE must OWN our choices.
Did you have something to do with placing your M in a spot where he could chose an Affair? maybe you did, but thats all. YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME!!!!!!!!

OW kissing him like that ... isn't hindsight wonderful .. be aware but try to not let that image stay with you too much. I feel sick when any image like it permeats into my life now, shame and disgust. But we reap what we sow don't we? We cannot change the past but we CAN make the future a lot better!!

I get a feeling from your posts that you are not sure what you need from your H right now and maybe over the last 12 months, except the honesty bit of course which sounds like its been a problem thro the whole M maybe but you weren't aware of it???? but I feel you want more as well????? I do think Steve Harley could help but you must be TOTALLY honest with Steve and say those things which you feel or think regardless of what is thought to be the 'right' way to say or think. it may hurt you and your H but like a festering wound if it is not cleaned out how will you get better??
Your illness must affect how you feel as well to a certain level and this should also be brought up with Steve or else he will not know an important fact.

Yes he is stalling!!
He KNOWS he has to say or tell you some very very unpleasant things perhaps all the way back thro your M. I don't know, but I surmise he is hiding from himself if I had to guess. He doesn't FEEL you could forgive when its probably what you have been waiting to do by knowing WHAT it is you have to forgive.

I feel that maybe one of the hardest things for you will be to accept that he has told you EVERYTHING you WANT to know. Maybe this is where Steve can help as well.
But TW his action of actually contacting the Harleys is a GOOD move because frankly he won't be able to fool them for long if he is BS'ing (I don't mean betrayed Spouse either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) them and you, they will be blunt if required from what I have heard and been told.
It also shows he IS willing to try to do the right things for you to see he is determined. He wants you and he wants his M but I wonder if he knows how to tell you that with actions? Words are great but what about follow thro??
Maybe this is EXACTLY one of the things you need to say with Steve and give example so think on that one.
You made an important statement ..

I think this is a very important issue you must discuss with Steve & your H during MC, very very important.

Now so far so good. BUT the bottom line as said before is .... you need to know what you need to know and he must tell you, verbal, in writing whatever.
You know, even if he cannot remember word for word or move by move what went on he surely can give you the gist of it. Myself I can sadly remember most of my actions, but admittedly not all as I was always pretty drunk. But even that is way too much. So I think he could give you most of what you need even if not move by move.

Please make sure you look after yourself TW as well.

AW

AW,

There are many feelings that I'm going through. I just feel like my entire M has been a lie. I feel so used to hear my H didn't love me as much as he thought he did all those years. Then knowing there is nothing I could have done differently. Every memory I have is tainted by this.

H and I were supposed to talk Mon. night. Our children and grandchildren showed up so that didn't work out. We tried again Tues. night, but our youngest son came over. It's Wed. night and it didn't work out again. This is why I wanted to go away for a weekend to talk because we have so many interruptions.

Even when I feel there is an hour in the evening to talk, I feel H thinks of things that "have" to be done. I feel like I'm being put last again.

H made a call to MB and got an answering machine. He left a message and they said they would contact him. They called this morning but my H was working and couldn't call them back until after 12 and there is only somebody there from 8-12. He is calling them back right away in the morning.

Does Steve H. do IC? I know my H asked Jennifer at one time, but she said she doesn't do IC.

do your kids know?(sorry i forget if they know or not....)

if they know you need to ask them for some time alone to talk. then shut the phone and lock the door and get on with it. you guys have to do this. i think BOTH of you are avoiding here.

i dont think steve does IC. but he is the best MC your gonna find. he will give your marriage the best shot. let your husband talk to him. he will get thru all the bull....! then when steve wants to talk to you...you do it.

There's no reason not to get IC with another therapist in addition to working the Harley. When we got our therapists, we told them upfront we were using the MB plan and any treatment depended on their support of that.

TW I don't think he does as he specialises in MC, but I'm not sure. He may be able to refer you to some good people in your area or a way to find such people.
I do think it is important to get a good IC, I feel it was so important to me. I was very lucky that way.
Its a bit hard, well it was for me to be COMPLETELY honest with my IC at first but it was worth it.

I suspect the feeling of being second place in a M is not that unusal to many women, at least the ones I know. I find the H is usually career driven, dedicated and devoted to their job. One or the other starts to drift away from their M. Yet they are not unhappy either ..... their wives seem to give them all they need, but approval in the workplace. To be fair I guess there are women who are exactly the same.
Its not hard to accept you could feel your entire M was like this, second and not appreciated, tainted, and you had no solid inkling until this blew up. BUT if it was how he really felt I wonder if he would try to repair it?
Husbands who don't care don't stay and fight, even ineptly perhaps at times, for their M if they don't WANT it. I wonder if he feels a little bit like you? not sure HOW to begin, FRIGHTENED, and then stuffs it up??
I have to wonder if he is floundering around because he doesn't know WHERE to start and because of all the feelings you have been put through and the lies, you now don't know what to tell him or where to start either???
My IC said something to me that evoked some long thought and deep discussions with my H. She said we were "So alone together" ... and she was right. Sometimes circumstances and demands outside of our control meant we were apart for long periods, and sadly still are, however we never pulled out of that either of us when we were together in the last year or two before my A. It set us up for a fall, and when something hit us like a freight train, I fell.
A way to start, a plan, MB can help there, Steve can set up a plan for you both to follow. Some things may sound useless and appear to be of no benefit, but as I found there are reasons that you will be asked to do A, B or C.
Don't give up TW, its hard but you will see some light soon I'm sure. But it WILL take work, pain and some tears. Yes its NOT bloody fair either.
thinking of you

AW

TW,

One of the hardest things people have to deal with is the fog speak after an A.

What you are taking to heart every other BS deals with.

I love you but I am not in love with you.
I don't think I ever loved you.
I have felt this way for ever.
He/She made me feel.......

TW understand one thing at the time your FWH had to beleive those justifications.

The question is does he still beleive them.

If he wasn't in love with you why would he be here. Why would he offer MC? He loves you enough to put the effort in.

I know you don't like not knowing the entire truth right now but it is on BOTH of you that it isn't done yet.

I could walk out my front door with my FWW and get in a car drive down the road, and just talk.

I can honestly tell you this though. I wish my FWW put as much effort into this as your H has.

Your H is a tweener he probably isn't one of the best, but he isn't one of the worst.

Be thankful for what you have. I know he wants this M.

You need to decide if you do as well.

I will say this though if you need every single detail of everysingle meeting, exactly how it happened and that is your expecatation you are setting yourself up for failure.

I have a great memory and I tried to remember something the other day. My memory permitted me to put it in a general time frame but if I needed a specific date I still couldn't come up with the specific date.

Now I am sure if I sat down pulled out a calander I could narrow it down, but maybe never come up with an answer.

If you continue to compare yourself to the OW you will never be able to move on either.

It was a fantasy. No reality. No bills, no business, no chores etc. It wasn't real life.

You want what they had? WE all do. Unfortunately I have to live in the real world. Not in fantasy land.

I told your FWH what everyone here is saying get MC.

It is completely possible that no matter what you will never move on from this. Not your fault it happens and every BS has the right to call an end to the M after an A.

IMVHO it is the BS responsibility to decide if they can do that.

Your H has made mistakes and so have you.

I think the other issue is I don't see any talk about what led to the deterioration of the M before the A.

That would concern me because if those haven't been addresed then they probably still exist.

nikko,
Yes, our 3 boys, my sister#2 and a close friend of mine know but no one else. Our boys know H had an A, my suicide attempt, and that OW still wants me gone. They told us they are there for us if needed, but respect our privacy.

This week things came up that were beyond our control. H and I are also taking care of many of my parents needs; meds, paying bills, repairs, lawn care, washing clothes. Many times I don't have time or energy to clean my own house.

I wanted to start talking last night, but H was outside digging up plants to move to another location. I'm not physically able to do this 2 nights in a row.

Mates4Life,
I do have an appt. with an IC on July 3. It takes 6 weeks to 3 months minimum to get an appt. with a counselor in this area.

aussieswife,
My H believes now that he didn't love me as much as he thought he did our entire M. This was something he realized long after he was out of the fog.


Actually, my H has said he doesn't know what to do so I think you may be right.

The fact that he let the OW kiss him for many years and didn't say anything to me makes me wonder how many other A's he's had in the past. There were times I had suspicions.


Wow, this is something I've said to my H for years! Even when we're together, we're alone.


I think this is very true.


There is nothing more painful than what I've already been through and I've cried so much that I don't have many tears left. Learning to trust will take a long time. As far as forgiving...well...I'm not ready to even think of that yet.

frognomore,
I do appreciate the work my H is doing. I see the changes he has/is making in himself. That is only one part of this. I have to learn to live with the fact that he didn't love me as much as he thought he did for our entire 30 yr. M. That alone is hard to accept. I was already at the end of my rope when the A was found out.


I'm a reasonable person. I would never expect this of him. Most of the questions I NEED answers to are about things that he can't use the excuse "I can't remember" unless he is lying, like "Did you have SF in our house?" I feel he should be able to remember that.


BINGO!!!! This has been and still is a big part of my frustration and the cause of many of our LB'ing sessions. When we talk, I ask some questions to find out what what going through his mind before the A and what his feelings were about us. The only answer I get from him is "I didn't know you" or "I never took the time to get to know you".

He just keeps saying I didn't do anything wrong. That's not going to help our M at all. It takes 2 to make or break a M and I need to know my part in this so I can learn what I need to change about me. I'm afraid this will happen again even though my H says it won't.

My H did make an appt. with Steve H.

ok...im gonna ask.

what are the questions he won't answer.

TW pls stick with Steve even when you feel its doing no good. Obviously there are some big issues of long standing that most likely even without an A involved probably would have driven you two apart.

No quick answers and no guarrantees.

I think at this time its a very hard slog for you especially when your H says he most likely did not love you as you should have been over the years.
However I feel you should look at this from another angle, yes easy for me to say, that is he is admitting he treated you badly and took you for granted and did not give you enough respect. Whats good about this? well it means he KNOWS he stuffed up and how badly. It shows he knows he needs to repair that.
Can he make it up? NO forget it. Thats in the past its lost. Mourn it, then let it gently go.

My MC told me I had KILLED my m. Took a while for me to admit that. I had. So I set out to make a NEW M. Ok we didn't Dv or anything but I felt I had to start anew. I could only repair some things up to a certain stage, it really required me to start over with my H in many ways but knowing so much about each other. And yes I mourned a lot for what I took from my H.
Did I make errors, oh God yes. But I kept working away at it. I did it too. But only WITH my H walking at my side.

Forgiveness TW. Well that one has been done to a dinner here over the years. I can only relate my expereinces and thoguhts on it. Forgiveness from my H, to my H What does that mean? it means he forgave me for HIS sake. I felt and at times still do feel dirty cheap and mostly worthless, it still happens, just not as often, because of my actions. What I did was unforgivable but my Husband has forgiven me anyway.
It is easier to seek forgiveness than actually forgive yourself. That sounds so confusing but it is how I feel.
Of course he feels anger and hurt and pain. He says he trusts me and yet I am the one who doubts. It suddenly has not disappeared or dissipated in a few months, a year or so. It may not for years. WE have to deal with that - I’m not sure how but we must.

I wrote what I feel and thought on this some time ago here maybe it can help in some way.What does forgiveness mean?

As nikko asks .......... what are the questions? Can you ask them here?

AW

TW,

One of the hardest things for me was admitting what I did wrong.

Did I have a horrible M? No. Something I did or didn't do, real or perceived, opened up the door for this to happen.

Now I will say this yet again to you. YOu and your H seem to have a communication problem, You need MC.

I can tell you from my personal experiance it got worse before it got better with the MC. We took steps back in order to finally start moving forward.

It isn't a miracle cure where you walk in and he/she says here is where you messed up, read this paragaraph and no work will be needed.

I am trying to remember your H's daily schedule.

He has a regular 8-5 then runs a home based business with you right? He took on more responsibility there because of your condition.

If that is the case then here is some more advice but if it isn't disregard it. LOL.

You say he was in the yard and you wanted to talk. You can only do it one day and he was out there the second day without you.

How about going outside and talking!!!

Listen my honest advice is you guys need help. I did as did most.

My FWW and I had communication problems. Nothing got better until we got better at communicating.

I really think that communication is the root problem to everything you are saying.

The details of the A, the not telling you what you did wrong.

Heck you are lucky on that one at least he didn't just start throwing things against the wall.

In all honesty he is right it is a deficency of his for succumbing too it.

He isn't justifying which is really good.

nikko, aussieswife and frognomore,

I'm not feeling well this morning and I'm having a hard time typing this. Your words are giving me a new way to look at things. I read them over and over. I'll have to answer your questions later. I have to lay down for now because I need to force myself to be at work this afternoon.

Sorry this is so long...

nikko,
Some of the current issues are below. I'll post some other questions later if that's ok.

aussieswife,
I start IC July 3rd. Are you saying I should talk with Steve Harley also or just my H? My H saw his IC yesterday but it was his last appt. H said the C never said more than 20 words all the time he's seen him. He also never took any notes. He tried making an appt. with a different IC in our area, but the first avail. appt. would be Sept. May need to go out of the area which would be a long drive. For now, he's going to just go with Steve H. I feel he should make an appt. with a local IC even if it is Sept. What do you think?


I'm hoping IC can help me with this because it's one reason I feel my entire M was a fantasy.

H's answer to everything is "I just didn't know you then" and "I see you as a completely different person now". I feel this is crap. He is using it as an excuse as a way of getting me to just move on. He also started using the "I can't remember" excuse the day our first MC said it. He had no problem remembering when we started going through the timeline.

By saying "I didn't know you then", it doesn't leave any room to figure out how our M got to the point it is now.

Saturday evening, we started to go through the 15 Steps to Unfaithfulness. I wrote down the answers(for both of us). This is to explain how two people can end up in an A. See if you can understand why I became so frustrated.

1. Sharing common interests.
H's answer: He felt they had the same work ethics. He admired that she worked 16 hrs. a day.

2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
H's answer: I(me) was sick, she(OW) wasn't. I had gained weight(from meds), OW was slim.

3. Meeting emotional needs.
H's answer: OW started meeting H's EN's after the SF started. Doesn't feel she was meeting any EN's in the beginning. (My reaction: huh?)

4. Looking forward to being together.
H's answer: Doesn't remember ever looking forward to seeing her but maybe that's why we started going to the Wednesday night dinners. H's not sure.

5.Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
H's answer: He's always been dishonest, so felt this one didn't really apply.

6. Flirting and teasing.
H's answer: Neither him or OW teased or flirted with each other.

We didn't get beyond #6 on Sat. evening because I became frustrated and went to bed. Here are the answers to the rest that I've been getting since D-Day.

7. Talking about personal matters.
H's answer: They never talked. When he went to their house, he was always downstairs with OW's BF in the bar area. OW was always gone or in the kitchen.

You tell me, how can an EA/PA start from this so far?

8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
H's answer: OW has been giving him hugs and kisses for years because "that's just the way she is." "She's just an affectionate person".

9. Special notes or gifts.
H's answer: He never gave her notes or gifts(except for D-Day).

10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
H's answer: She called him to fix her lawn mower all the time. (She would give him a hug and/or a kiss to show her appreciation.)

11. Arranging secret meetings.
H's answer: They never arranged secret meetings.

12. Deceit and cover ups.
H's answer: There was nothing to cover up because they were just friends.

13. Kissing and embracing.
H's answer: She was kissing him more often after he started helping OW with night deliveries in March of 2005.

14. Petting and high indiscretion.
H's answer: There was never any petting or other touching.

15. Sexual Intercourse.
H's answer: One night after deliveries were done, OW grabbed my H in the crotch and said "we can take care of that".

My H said the EA started in 2003 but the PA didn't start until May of 2005. What H is trying to convince me of doesn't give me much hope of another A not happening in the future. From what I see, any woman that gives him a kiss or hug as a thank you can later just grab him in the crotch and have their way with him.

frognomore,

This is what I'm trying to figure out but only get "I didn't know you then" from my H. How can I change myself if I don't know what to change? I'm looking forward to IC and the additional support hopefully. We haven't had the best luck with C's.


Because of my illness, I'm not supposed to be in the sun and heat because it causes my illness to flair. If I overdo one day, I suffer for it the next 2 days. I used to be a workaholic so I tend to overdo things a lot. Stress also triggers flairs and I'm supposed to avoid as much stress as possible. Yah right! LOL


Now, my H does do most of the business stuff. I can't handle much of anything right now. Remember a few posts back when I posted what I have been going through since 2003. I was running temperatures as high as 102.5 and I didn't realize it because I always felt that bad. I was bedridden when they got to 103. H thought I was just being lazy.

There are many times I did production for our business by myself because he was always gone helping OW. I'm sure my H failed to mention that to you because he didn't mention it to our friends either.

I tried running the house by myself, but couldn't do much so things went undone for 2 yrs. I was also trying to take care of my parents and their property. I had no support at all from my H. Not even a hug or a shoulder to cry on because doing things for the OW and OW's BF was more important. The only thing that kept me from committing suicide back then was because my Sister#2 and I had to protect and take care of our Mom and Dad.

If I would have committed suicide then, it would have killed my parents and my sister. Suicide is not me, but that is how bad it was on a daily basis through 2003, 2004, 2005 when D-Day Feb. 14, 2006 was the final blow for me. It just never seems to end.

There are many days where I long for that peaceful, warm feeling I had when I was hanging between life and death, even if just for a couple of hours. I just need a break.

All I want is the truth from my H. This is the only way he can prove to me that he is no longer protecting her and the secret life they had together. I just feel like I'm being used by waiting 16 months and still no answers. Am I showing him he can still treat me this way?

My H just called from work. He is all upset because he just got a voice message from MB saying he missed the IC session this morning with Steve Harley and will be charged $95. He had verified his first session was July 19th not June 19th. The person on the phone basically said "too bad". I've never talked to anyone at MB before with that kind of attitude.

He was also told he has to make the call to Steve. When we were going through MC with Jennifer, she called us. His IC with Steve has been reschuled for this Thurs.

TW,

I am not trying to say you aren't doing enough I just needed a refresher on your guys dailey lives.

I understand your illness prohibits things I am just trying to figure out when I post to you or your H what your daily lives look like.

So someone not knowing would say hey you guys....

I saw your post what was missing was your daily grind.

So my question is this. Tell me what your H's day looks like.

Time he wakes up till time he goes to sleep. Not to say you aren't doing enough. It isn't about you at all it is about him.

TW maybe he is still trying to figure out why he had the A.

One of your MC's said in many cases it is unresolved anger that may be an underlying issue.

The good thing you are missing on this is he isn't throwing junk agains the wall.

My FWW said things to justify her affair that were lies in some cases or problems she caused.

I will give you a for instance. She Blamed me or said it was my FAULT that she had the A because when I get home I wasn't affectionate enough.

Now she was right. So it really upset me and we needed to get to the bottom of it.

MC- Frog is that right.
Frog- yes it is
FWW - see
MC - Frog why didn't you show her attention and give her affection.
FWW - because our he doesn't love m.
MC - please let him answer.

Frog - Well when I get home at night it is anywhere between 6:30 and 7:30 pm. Depending on traffic.

My car has no AC and the drives side window doesn't roll down. Due to my FWW's spending habits I didn't have the thousand dollars to fix the window and the AC.

So when I get home I like to go wash my face and change.

Then when I come out of the room there is usually chaos. OS is doing his homework. When I say doing his homework I mean my FWW finally decided it was time for him to start.

That fight lasts a while. We then eat and get the kids ready for be. They go to bed at 8:30.

FWW institued laying down with YS and now we both take turns laying down with him.. I fought her to not lay down but she over rode me and did it anyway and now it turned into this. Probably 2 nights a week one of us is in there until at least 10pm.

Add that to my FWW's alcohlism and it doesn't lead to a lot of intimacy.

Plus she drinks red wine and her breath is really, really bad and sour from that.

MC - Wow. So it isn't that you didn't want intimacy and affection.

FWW - Oh so it is all my fault. You didn't do anything wrong.

MC - He never used the word fault he was explaining your day to day life from his point of view. Is any of that wrong or exagerated.

FWW - No but I am in AA now.

MC - But what he just described was that real

FWW - Well yes.

MC so you were upset that the conditions that existed meant you got less attention and affection.

FWW - Yes

MC so what are you going to do.

I know that was long but there was a point to it.

My FWW just threw stuff out at the wall. SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHY SHE HAD THE A. HER FIRST INSTINCT WAS TO BLAME ME.

Your H might not know right now. IT took my FWW a long time to even figure it out.

Most of the time though she wasn't looking inward. She was looking at me saying I know he did something to make me do this.

Each time she changed my deficincies that led to her A caused more problems in our M.

Understand he may not know right now. But at least in the meantime he isn't blaming you!!!

aussieswife,
I appreciate so much your point of view. It gives me some understanding of what is going through my H's mind. I read your words, as well as others, over and over again. They help keep me grounded as best I can be. Thank you so much!!!

nikko,
I think maybe you also understand the deep hurt lies can bring into a M. My sister#1 is a chronic lier and I've never understood it. It has torn our entire family apart. It's so amazing how little things each one of you say will suddenly hit me. Maybe not right away, but sometimes after I've read your posts for the 10th time.

frognomore,
OK, I get it now.

After work, my H took empty barrels to a loading dock for a truck to pick up. He then went to the P.O. Box to pick up the mail. Got home at 5:00. I asked him if we were going to talk and he said yes.

I still wasn't feeling well so I could only work 3 hrs. We just had leftovers for dinner. H heated them up while I layed down. After dinner, my H put things away, unloaded the dishwasher and reloaded it. (The kitchen was very clean when I woke up later).

He then went in the computer room to check for the email from MB but there wasn't one. He will call them today. I thought he was ready to talk but then heard the ripping of a check from the checkbook so I knew he was paying a bill.

While waiting, I must have dozed off to sleep. I woke up at 9:45 pm and H was asleep.

H and I were awake at opposite times throughout the night. This morning, he said he tried waking me but couldn't. He layed down by me for just a moment but fell asleep.

The conversation between your MC, your wife and you would be considered normal WS talk wouldn't it? My H blamed me in the beginning also. But now, I just get "I didn't know the real you back then" as the answer to everything. It's almost worse because where can you go from that? It's kind of a dead end answer.

I want to thank you for not giving up on us. Even while you are going through your own issues, you never failed to support my H and me. My prayers go out to you and your family.

TW,

I have no issues my life is great. LOL.

Hey the thing I am getting at is there is progress. Yes what the MC and I went throug are normal WS garbage.

Youre H is past that point now. My FWW had a hard time of letting go of the justifications to even get to the point of I don't know. The next step is turning inward. Not something you can force.

One day the aha moment may hit him and he may say I know why now. He may really, really not know why yet. The answer he is giving you may be the only REAL answer he has right now.

That may change with IC and MC.

What time does your H go to work in the morning?

See for me with our schedule pre A I really had less then an hour a day with my FWW. In some cases she was too drunk to do anything or talk about anything meaningful.

AGain I will say this you guys need to work on communicating.

So part of what I am seeing is your FWH's consideration for you may be causing some problems. What I mean is he said he tried to wake you up and you didn't respond. He could have said get up I am finishing my timeline or we need to talk. Instead he let you sleep.

Part of recovery for me is seeing the little things. Stop for some time today and forget about his A, forget about his lack of communication.

Focus on all the good things he does.

I notice I never hear you say he isn't supportive of you. He picks up slack becuase of your condition, he drives a few hours to go to the doctors with you, he heats up leftovers, cleans the kitchen, works, pays the bills and cares enough about you and the M that he is going to go to MC.

The rest will come. You are not in a normal sitch here and you should try to understand that.

Your condition and his work schedule make it tough but I do see the commitment in him.

Hi TW

sorry for being away last few days but been worn out building a spa pergola after work.
Good therapy while H is deployed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
watching a 2 yr old as well as trying to level a floor beam is a challenge <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Talking to Steve Harley yourself? yes as I understand it Steve see's each person separately for fifteen minutes so that he can gain their individual perspectives.. I mean whats good a MC where both of you cannot attend?????? Make sure your H lets him know you a very willing to talk to Steve
But definitely a pro marriage IC to simply help you deal with all this crap. Your illness and this emotional ride must be impacting on you so please see if you can get someone, maybe your Doc can help ???? Maybe the Harleys could give some pointers on how to find pro marriage IC near you????

Now the questions.....

1 & 2 well yeah .. SF was the common interest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

3 who needs EN's when SF will do, he's most likely being truthful as he perceives it on this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

4 I'd guess it was the illicit nature of the A which was the likely draw at first. He needs to KNOW his own EN's and then carefully review the OW's actions to see if they were being provided even if occasionally.

5 I feel he is being honest here. He's admitted he's lied all the time probably because it became a habit.

6 OK thats a BS answer. He has already stated that OW kissed him, fondled him etc etc through some years, if THATS not flirting & teasing maybe I should go watch pigs fly.
I think he just does not SEE those actions in that light. It became so usual he just let it slowly become the norm. Needs a quite but firm pointing out maybe by Steve???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

7 Yes I can believe this one as mine was similar. Beyond agreeing with me every time I said my H was a no good etc etc ... very limited personal talk = not having to face I'M CHEATING thoughts .. avoidance behaviour

8 really answered by considering number 6 - of course they did just accept it without doubting.

9 yes it could be possible but it depends on the interaction between the two. One point being she did not want BF to know & he did not want you to know so no pressies unless ones they could leave at workplace. If he insists that he didn't perhaps he did not.

10 yep not unusual .... keep him on the hook throwing out a line or two, take as being fact.

11 & 12 Another BS ans. Of course there were cover ups & secret meetings or he would have told you he was bonking her wouldn't he?? You KNOW it and he KNOWS it!!!
Needs to be faced by him and another one for Steve to ask perhaps. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

13 & 14 FACT he says it happened. The moment he returned a kiss that was it. You can know for sure this happened he's clutching at straws here. Don't even bother to ask cause he did. Accept it as part of SF is my advice on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

15 SF - ok probably truthful. Well I guess this is the crux of the issue isn't it.. what can you trust to know he won't do this again? this is what the MC can help you both work through because you BOTH will need to work on this.

I suggest he's not really sure about the WHY. Its probably not a clear cut simple answer but one of mixed feelings, self entitlement, selfishness and yes stupidity. I do think he's in part being honest when he says 'I didn't know you then'. He spent so much time on himself its not a wonder.

But its telling that he's admitted it now. Its a start. A good sign if you will. But hes not totally there yet.
I suspect he's frightened as I said before of telling you the truth because it WILL hurt you. He thinks avoiding those bits & pieces is the lessor evil if you will. I feel Steve will get the message through its not up to him this time, is up to you to know what you want to know.

Don't be passive TW about MB counselling, make sure you are included and if you have to, ring Steve yourself.
Big hugs to you, its darn hard isn't it.
Take care

AW

frognomore,


Glad to hear that. By the way....Congratulations!

My H leaves at about 6:40 am to be at work at 7.

FWH had his first IC session with Steve H. Steve says the first thing my H needs to do is figure out why he had the A.

Steve H. wants to talk to me now. I have an appt. tomorrow morning.

I'm not sure what Steve can say to help. When we worked on our LB's & EN's it just made me angry. I have only 2 EN's right now and that's honesty and conversation. I had to add the 2nd because I can't get honesty without the conversation. Without honesty, the rest are useless to me right now.

Our OS was home for only 4 days so we were helping him get rid of things and get his house ready to sell. We also had other family things that couldn't be avoided.

I try to focus on all the good things my H does but it doesn't help alot in my sitch. H always came home to make dinner when I was sick even during the A. He would make dinner then leave to be with OW. He even did this during the 3 months just before d-day when I lived in the lower level of our home and we weren't talking. He said he did this because he cared about me and he does like to cook. I think it was so he could show OW that he did everything and I did nothing.

He also always said he loved me on the way out the door to be with OW. He is constantly saying "I love you", but the words don't mean anything to me now and tend to be more of a trigger.

We went to my sister's house this weekend. Not much conversation over the 2 hr. drive. I'm so frustrated. Last night when we got home from OS's house, there was very little conversation.

I was going to move in to OS's house, but he may have found someone to live there and take care of things until it sells. I would no longer have a place to go and my H knows this. So why tell me the truth when I have no other place to go?

aussieswife,
2 yr olds are fun aren't they?

Thanks for your answers on the 15 Steps to an A. They were very close to what I knew in my heart all along.

I will give Steve H. a fair chance. I'm kind of nervous though.


I do believe partly that he didn't know me. I feel he's using that excuse to his advantage to avoid admitting to himself the real reason for having an A. It's kind of a "one answer fits all" statement. I will be sure to talk to Steve about this.

He did know me for the most part because I was always open and honest with him. He knew my morals and values. I feel this way from the conversations we did have over the years. He may not have known some of the intimate aspects of my personality because he was gone all the time.

This is so hard. I never did like roller coasters and I hate the one I'm on now because it doesn't end or even slow down.

I just feel like I've been through all the emotions and have none left. I am becoming more and more emotionless and numb. I go to work when I can, but when I come home, I find myself going to the bedroom and shutting out as much of life as possible. My life is becoming paralyzed in a way.

Nikko,

One of my questions was "where was the 1st time"?
I know it was on a gravel road close to where our car machanic is. I told him I didn't want to take any of our cars there again because I felt uncomfortable with him having that road as a reminder.

I told him I wanted him to show me which road it was as soon as possible so I can put it to rest in my mind.

We took my H's truck to that machanic last night. He didn't show me which road. Did he just forget? I know he didn't because he acted kind of nervous by making continuous small talk until we got close to home. He was quiet after that.

Hi TW

I'll be brief, well for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, as its very late here 1.15 am in the morning ... I wait up in case my H calls from Afghanistan .. hope springs enternal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ..

OK the point of him not knowing you ... I feel its partly an admission of selfishness but he can't say that plainly yet. Its also an admission that the two of you probably drifted apart due to his absences, boy do I know that one.
Its such a easy trap

I do believe hes trying but not perhaps hard enough. and just so you know again, there are NO excuses, reasons why a person CHOSE to have an affair yes, but NO excuses. I think he accepts the principle but the detail is biting a bit.
I also feel that there are some deep communication issues between you both. Obviously you wish to express some issues and he wants to explain them but there seems to be no connection.. this really needs some work from you both

Please be open to what Steve speaks to you about. There are no quick fixes, not much he says will make you feel less hurt or angry, not right now. This is a very long process.
What Steve will probably want from you is some details and what you know, feel you don't know etc, but whatever he asks is important for him to learn the situation, but remember its just the beginning so not pls don't expect too much.
I still do feel you need a good IC for YOU, you have dealt with some big issues here. An IC can help you deal with those feelings, while Steve can help with the M, because though they are separate steps both are likely required right now. Pls consider this TW. I was dragged kicking and screaming to IC sessions at first so you are not alone in feeling its useless etc in the beginning.
TW you are hurting so much it comes through so clearly, but sometimes none of us need do it alone.

Thinking of you hope all goes well with Steve
AW

TW,

Good luck with Steve.

MC seemed like 2 steps back and 1 step forward a lot to me. So be ready for that.

What I would think about is your Love Bank.

Essentially what you are portraying here is no matter what your H does he isn't making deposits. Unless you FEEL OR KNOW that he has been completely honest.

I told you this before, he might not know or remember all of the details. Exact times, dates, etc.

It seems like if you find a discrepency your first thought and sometimes reaction is "LIAR, LIAR" if you aren't going to be honest then........

I will say this sometimes I cannot give exact details of stuff.

Are you willing to waiver at all? Are you willing to give some leeway? Can you say maybe it isn't a lie and that he is being dishonest. Maybe it wasnt' improtatn or maybe he forgot.

Or maybe he lied in the past and now is telling the truth and you calling him a liar and threatening to leave doesn't make it safe for him to be honest?

Why do you think he had the A?

I had a dang good idea in my case. She didnt' need to tell me exactly. I had the general framework.

What do you think it was?

I had my first C session with Steve Harley. He is very direct and to the point which I like. Steve said I am still at square one because my H hasn't answered my questions about the A. I can't move forward until that is done.

aussieswife,


Both of us agree that we do have communication issues.

frognomore,

My H does make deposits. The lies withdraw more than he is depositing right now. My love bank has been in the negative for many years.


I found out last night that he lied in the timeline. How much lying am I supposed to take??? How many times am I supposed to hear the words "I'm telling you the truth" only to find out he was lying? He doesn't get it when I tell him "I can't take any more lies"! I have tried my best to make it safe for him to talk to me. I'm tired and empty. I have nothing more to give.

I'm unable to work because the stress is overwhelming. I really don't have much to live for right now and the future doesn't look any better.

Why do I think he had the A? I don't know. He always made me feel I wasn't good enough so I tried harder. It didn't matter how hard I tried, I still wasn't good enough. I now feel more inadequate than ever.

TW first of all just a big hug [[[[tw]]]] because I do know how you feel about nothing to live for and no future you can see. My A originated from deep despair when my little boy died. I felt my H had abandoned me, I had nothing to live for I wanted to be with my little boy.
Its a living ****** to feel that way.

But I found eventually after months of self destructive actions by me that there is something to live for, my other children and yes my H. But I didn't get there without help. Without grieving and pain on top of all the A stuff. You are grieving for lost years in your M

You see you have your children and honestly they do need you in their lives even now. And though its hard to believe right now I do think your H wants and needs you as well. However if he's worthy of you, now thats another thing entirely.
Now that Steve has pinned him down it wll be the test in eating the pudding so to speak, will he now come clean?????
My guess is he will try to gloss over as much as possible at first, don't think he'll get away with it though.
Can you see the inane reasoning hes on right now? Tells you some really bad stuff about the affair but lies about the timeline which would help so much put it in context for you???? I mean thats how dumb we WS can be at this stage.

I don' think any of it is more hurtful than another part, not really.

TW I do feel you need a individual counsellor for you to go through your issues of feeling inadequate. Its not true... you bring up a family, with an illness, holding down a job, keeping a home together, THAT does not sound like a woman who is not good enough to me!! It does sound like a spouse who spent his time blaming you for anything he could to justify his Affair though! You see that is just so common its like out of a WS manual, we all do that, blame everyone but ourselves.
You see the logic here is very simple, if I can blame you I dont have to think about what I am doing is wrong.
Please take some action on this for your sake TW.

Again dont expect miracles, Steve will work away at both of you as he see the need to get your M on a plan for recovery or renewal. I found it better to think of the old M as dead and I and to make a new one. But whatever works for each of you.

please dont give up and get some help on those empty feelings and thoughts.

take care

AW

Can you give an example of the Lie you found out about?

For example my FWW told me "I did not got out with him on our Anniversary and she did." She knew she did and that to me was a lie.

She told me the first time they went out was Monday and it was acutally tuesday. That was a mistake. An inaccuracy but there was no intent to deceive me.

I think you may be handling every mistake or contradiction as a Lie. When they may be innacuracies.

Do you really think his intent is to deceive.

To me the way I would look at it is what does he have to gain from that LIE? If the answer is nothing then he probably forgot or misplaced it in time.

I really beleive it is time to recuse myself from this thread. My FWW would never do what your H is doing or trying to do.

I WISH MY FWW WOULD DO HALF OF THE THINGS YOUR FWH is doing.

I wish she had his attitude. I wish she picked up the slack while I felt like I was dying inside.

You have a good man that you will drive away if you continue down this road.

You don't know why he had the A? Common perception is there was something wrong in the M.

His EN's not being filled. Do you really think you are making your M A proof right now?

You feel inadaquate. This man is working a full time job, running a home based business, picking up the slack because of your illness, taking you to the doctors, putting together a timeline, going to MC with Harley, cooking you dinner, cleaning up the kitchen etc. AND YOU SAY THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH DEPOITS.

If I weren't a heterosexual man I might try to steal him from you.

To me it seems as though you are missing all of that and holding onto the LIES.

Yet when asked what Lies you are never specific.

aussieswife,

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss of your little boy.

I just don't understand why my H keeps lying to me after 16 mos. He sees what it is doing to our M. Yes, I am grieving the loss of my M. The loss of all 30 yrs. knowing now that my H didn't love me as much as he thought he did.

Does my H need me and want me? Sometimes I think so and other times I think it's just part of his plan. He told me he thought if I found out about the A we would have a big fight, go to MC and live happily ever after.

My H told me last night that he is still minimizing things about the A. He has lied for so long that he finds it difficult to tell the truth the first time. He said it is something he has to work on. Sounds like crap to me.

My 1st appt. with an individual counsellor is on July 3rd.

frognomore,

OK, I'm going to get graphic here. My H has denied having oral with the OW. Is this something that he could just forget?

Now says it only happened 2 or 3 times in a year. Would you believe that? He also said OW orga$med 3 times every time they had SF but their encounters were less than 15-20 min. (I'm not talking multiple one right after the other O's here.) He always had 1-3 hrs. with OW. (This is what he told me early on but now says 15-20 min. at the most.) He also insists they never spoke when they saw each other. (They must be telepathic then, huh)?

He also said there was no foreplay of any kind. She didn't like being touched. The OW just wanted the "main course".

Steve wants me to send him my list of questions. I don't have a "list" of questions and I'm having trouble coming up with a "list". I just need to talk about the A with my H and let any questions come up naturally. I need to understand in order to put the A to rest. Answers to a list of questions won't help me. I may have the answers but I won't have the understanding.

I've read about PTSD and the treatment is to talk about it. My H doesn't want to talk about it.

I'm sorry to hear you are giving up on me. Please understand that I do appreciate the things my H does for me. I don't want him to do things FOR me, I want him to do things WITH me.

I asked my H what EN's I wasn't filling. He said I was filling all his EN's. He was just not accepting them. He just told me the other night that the anniversary and b-day cards I used to give him were dumb. They used to say how much I loved him or he was my life. One time I made one that said I wanted to make love to him all night long. He thought that was especially dumb because he felt it was my wifely duty.

I gave him gifts for V-day, B-day, Anniversary, etc. but he didn't give me anything for the last 25 years. I gave up everything I enjoyed doing for the chance to be with him. I took up hunting and was going to have golf lessons until he injured his arm and couldn't golf after that.

I didn't say there weren't enough deposits. I said the number of lies he tells withdraw more than he deposits. He says the same words over and over to me like a recording. "I love you." He also said this to me on the way out the door to be with the OW.

So are you saying, that because he made dinner for me, had SF with me only after I was asleep, cleaned the kitchen and told me he loved me during his A and now, I should just be happy because it's more than most BS's get? I should just live with his lies because he is doing all these things FOR me (not WITH me)? Are you saying my H doesn't have to talk to me about the A?

I'm sorry, maybe doing things FOR you may fill your love bank but it doesn't do much for mine. I need the intimacy, the connection of doing things together.

Yes, my H is taking up the slack right now and is getting credit from you and the OW before the A. I did it all when he was injured 12 yrs. ago. I was taking up the slack before and during his A. I did the production by myself for our business, and taking care of my parents farm, house, finances, health, etc. I took care of everything around the house that I was capable of doing, I was doing this while vomiting because the OW poisened my meds and my dog. The OW still hasn't given up. She got rid of our dog, but I'm still here. Like she said, she always gets what she wants.

But I should just be happy because he is here now? I should have nothing to overcome because he is doing all this for me now? I should still let him continue to control where I go and what I do because he does all of this for me? I should only have SF when he wants to not when I want to? He doesn't need to talk to me or help me heal? He doesn't need to talk to me about anything other than the weather, the business, or work that needs to be done? It's ok that he still lies to me because he is doing all these things FOR me? It's all ok because he is going through MC? Everything he said to our 1st MC was a lie.

How can I get an STD before he says the A started? I've never been with another man in my life! I could tell he was with another woman by oral SF. I was correct 3 out of the 4 times. H says I'm wrong about 1 of them. I must have tasted something else. Ya right. But I'm supposed to believe my H is being honest just because he does things FOR me?

What in all of this will prevent my H from having another A? I let him lie to me before and he had an A. If I let him lie to me now will it prevent another A? Is that all a WS needs to do is just do things for the BS, go to MC and all is solved?

Is this the MB way? Sorry so graphic.

frognomore,

If you have decided to not post to me anymore, it's your choice and I respect that. I just want to say I do have a lot of respect for you and want you to know that your time posting to me has not been wasted even though it may appear that way to you. Thank you.

TW,

I think I see something here...

"I asked my H what EN's I wasn't filling. He said I was filling all his EN's. He was just not accepting them. He just told me the other night that the anniversary and b-day cards I used to give him were dumb. They used to say how much I loved him or he was my life. One time I made one that said I wanted to make love to him all night long. He thought that was especially dumb because he felt it was my wifely duty."

Can you see how much your FWH cut out of his own love bank? He's saying he wasn't accepting your love bank deposits and SHARED how he discounted them...told you the actual process he used then. Not now. Can you hear the high level of honesty to share this with you...that he believes you are safe enough to share what grieves and shames him inside?

Can you see you doing this with him, as well? As the BS, this is really important and difficult to get through to yourself...here is where I saw you do this...

"The loss of all 30 yrs. knowing now that my H didn't love me as much as he thought he did."

You see how you are the one wiping out all 30 years? Would you consider this scenario and tell me if it's close?

Your choice to believe his love for you would keep you safe...when you knew his love for himself was what was lacking? Would you consider this? That if you loved him enough for him, and he loved you enough for you, that neither of you had to really love yourselves as is...or possibly, you did for you, yet you know that he did not. At all. He lived through you...you told him he was great, then he WAS great...you told him he was slime, then he WAS slime...and this can be done when we say, "What you did was great" (equals WE'RE great!) and "What you did was idiotic, stupid or slimey" (equals we ARE an idiot, stupid and slime).

Defining ourselves through others is an act of self-betrayal...and I swear we betray ourselves for all our lives...until we stop, and begin defining ourselves, not others and not through others.

What comes with this constant self-betrayal? Self-deception...I read you as taking his answers as lies to YOU...when you are choosing to disregard, entirely, that he was lying to himself the entire way through his A...a human being has to in order to betray the love of their life...and you are his love. Justifications, resentment, entitlement, telling himself you didn't care, didn't love him, wouldn't know...a hundred lies to himself a day.

That's the fantasy part. Which makes it really difficult to recall details...not to cover up and lie (and I DO believe he lied directly to you many times, even after DDay to "protect" you from further pain. I no longer believe he's doing that now...except now, he's discovering how unaware, automatic, NOT REAL he was during the A. Answers change as he changes...he didn't have this clarity back then...fog is real.

This isn't an excuse. And you do not have the power (no human being does) to make him not lie...or as you phrased it, "I let him lie to me before and he had an A. If I let him lie to me now will it prevent another A?" You have your half of every lie you're told by anyone...the choice to believe or to not believe...you aren't powerful enough to allow or disallow lies.

And no, lies aren't what enables, nor does truth prohibit affairs...deception is a result, not a cause. I know this from life experience. What makes a serial cheater not cheat...same thing they did to cheat...they chose. Knowing this is a choice, not an accident, an oops, a "oh, did I do that?" kinda thing...and knowing the boundaries they crossed, their own weaknesses, their half of the marriage, their power and limits...which is all part of loving your whole self...that's what will protect YOUR marriage from infidelity.

Not discounting love deposits goes a long ways, too.

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TW, would you consider one other offering on my part? Since affairs are the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect (Gimble)...can you see where your resentment may be entitling you to withhold, abuse, disrespect, attack...fear alone can give us permission within ourselves...even permission to sorrow, to despair, to hurt back...and thereby you betray your own self, which doubles your hurt and pain, prevents healing, highest honesty and safe communication to discover who you both are right now?

The allure of an affair is the fantasy of a clean slate...no injuries done to your fantasy partner and they haven't done any to you (see the fantasy?)...they are full of only positive stuff. In recovery, we learn to see our partners as a clean slate in a way...not having nailed them down into labels and categories or compartments. We discover who we are today...and in doing so, we kill the allure of fantasy. Which is why A's aren't about love, really. Not real love.

TW, your FWH is acting on his own choices...he's acting from his choice to love you--you can't earn it, can't punish it out of him and you can't make him not love you. It remains his choice. He's changing...and I want to ask if you are? Not as a bash...if you're blocking his deposits, and from your post it sounds as if you are, then are you gaining more from your own resentment, and if so, is it a real gain?

As humans, we cannot argue ourselves into love, trust, security or happiness. Your pain is years old. It's valid and very, very real. So is your fear, anger, frustration...all you feel. You have been really injured, wounded as deeply as you go...what is left is the question you may not have an answer for right now...

do you want to heal all your wounds?

Seems to me you do...you're going to IC...you are in the marriage...and you want very much to stop hurting. I know you can...I have no doubt.

LA

Thankyou TW having kids of your own I know you can understand that particular pain. God has his own plans I guess.

TW yes you can and perhaps should grieve for your M. You have for some time. When does grieving stop and life begin again? I wish I had that answer. All I can say it just happens, with a lot of work with a IC, a MC and love from family and for me returning to my faith. The trap is what I did. I began to feel my H abandoned me and our kids, I began to feel self pity and nearly lost all that I loved.

This just SO SO classic a WS trait, the total fantasy of it all, completely removing themselves from reality. What I would ask you to consider here is your H total admission of guilt and frankly crap behaviour in the PAST. He wanted you to know what he did, no sugar coating. he is saying "Here, this is what I thought"


TW I feel that this one point, the minimizing, is the make or break thing here in your decision to fight for you M. Am I on the right track? If so this is what you MUST tell Steve. Be absolutely honest, don't think or worry about what may sound too hard or tough or anything, just tell what you feel about it. If to you the questions are a way to confirm the truth, that is you ask the question a number of ways to test his veracity, that is not unusual from what I have observed, you may not have specific questions as such, is this right?
However I do disagree with your thought that its crap and therefore from that just more lying as usual. It's not exactly that I believe.
Why? Because I can remember my own TOTAL desperation and fear of losing my M and the way I twisted and turned to avoid telling my H the TOTAL truth of what I did and when and how. I avoided and avoided and told lies, small ones but still lies, to not give him the full information because I was SO convinced no matter what he said, the IC & MC said, my family said, that once he knew he would be outta here fast as a Bondi tram.
Of course I was wrong & in hindsight know he needed it to forgive, he needed to know what to forgive thats the way he is, some people don't need or want that, he did. It sounds like you do as well in some things.
You see TW I had lost my compass in life, I didn't know which way to turn to 'FIX' it. It took me a while to realise I couldn't by myself. Your H has to learn this, so please don't give up, let Steve work with him and you.

I am glad for you TW that you will do this, you have taken on a lot in recent times.

In short No this is not the MB way at all. Steve will guide you through the right way so much better than I, but honesty is a MUST. Graphic is ok.

Loving Anyway has made some great points too TW. I know you must feel overwhelmed at times right now. Just handle what you can one at a time.

Forgiveness TW? I have spent some long and agonising times wondering about forgiveness. There are supposed to be two different kinds of forgiveness. The first is a willingness to forgo vengeance, but not to try to repair the relationship.
Giving this type of forgiveness is really just plain good mental health for anyone. Its I think the easiest of the two for many. My priest gave a sermon on this and said
“Ask yourself how much does your hatred/pain hurt your husband/wife and how much does it hurt you? What will your vengeance, if you ever can find it, cost you? Will it ever be enough? Is there anything you can do to keep the hate/hurt from eating you up except to release it?
This type of forgiveness is what allows you to stop letting what someone has done to you to control your life. It does not mean that you have to spare the other the consequences of what they have done. You don't have to like them or even wish them well. The important thing is that you can't forget about them until you have decided to forgive them. “

The other kind of forgiveness, full forgiveness, is much harder. It involves trying to re-establish a relationship, perhaps never as it was, never as it had been, but a new full loving supporting relationship. The thing is though that full forgiveness is only possible if the other party repents and also works to repair what they've done.
When you think on it. It’s all pretty standard MB thinking isn’t it?
"Forgiveness is a decision not an emotion."
Forgiveness is as much about helping you as it is for those you forgive, even if they don’t want it.
YOU are the winner.
What’s easier I wonder … forgiving or accepting the forgiveness?
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LovingAnyway and Aussieswife,
Sorry I haven't posted in a few days. I can honestly say things are not the same as they have been for the last 16 months. I have so much to tell you.

Just got off the phone with Steve Harley. My H talked to him too. What a SMART and INTELLIGENT man!!! He has a plan for us. I have my 1st individual councelling session today also. I will answer all your questions but I have to go to work now.

Nikko,
What did you say to my H? Something you said to him really sunk in and he started to talk. I noticed a change in him on Sat. and Sun.

More later. Have a great 4th of July!

Oh thats GREAT. I do hope it is looking so much better for you. When you can let us know
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AW

i'm not gonna tell you what i said to him....just like i don't post to him what is said on here....but your welcome!

stick with steve...he really is the best....and his bull detector is amazing....so is mine and i think your hubby got called on it by both of us!