H is getting off work soon. I left a voice msg. letting him know I will help him get on MB as soon as he gets home. The last time we tried it didn't work. Hopefully we will have better luck tonight.

I just have a minute before I go to work. My H got on MB last night and posted. I’m hoping he will get lots of support and understanding because he is really hurting right now. This could make all the difference, not only in our marriage, but in helping him get back some self esteem. It would be ideal if some FWSs would post to him because they can see his side of things and I think he would open up more.

Melody Lane…since I don’t know who he is on MB, you may be able to find him. Your words helped me and I believe they would also help him. I hope I’m not being rude. The only thing I know is my H is not a very good typist and Believer was the first person that responded to his post. Thank you Believer.

I asked my H if he felt I was, as Melody Lane said, “grilling him like a hostile defense witness”. He said sometimes. I then asked him if this is why he doesn’t want to talk and have our “clear the air” talk. H told me it’s because he feels so guilty for what he has done to me. He sees how much it has crushed me and destroyed our life.

So now, I’m going to try very, very hard not to bring it up on my own. I will talk to Jennifer Harley Chalmers and let her handle it. Isn’t it going to get harder to talk about as time goes on? I feel the wall building higher between us and the OW is on his side of the wall. I don’t want to be just roommates anymore. This is what we’ve been for the last 4 or 5 years.

Thank you all for what you do here! I need to go to work now but will check back this evening.

WH called me at work the other day and was very upset. OWs son just got a job where my H works. What is the chance of this happening in a large town? OW will be very happy about this.

This is upsetting to both H and I because OW has her children involved. Daughter to help call men and son to do whatever else. We haven't figured out yet what all the OW son’s roles are in her schemes. We do know he is into many bad things and has some not-so-nice friends.

I had some of the worst nightmares last night. They seem to be getting more violent. Can’t escape thoughts of the OW and A even when I go to sleep. Has anyone else ever had this problem?

I am so frustrated! Conversation with WH very generic this evening. I just don’t understand. Why can’t he just come clean about the A so I/we can start to heal? Is there a FWS out there that can help explain it to me?

I can give you my experiences tw

It was overwhelming fear that if I told my H ALL the details he would loath me and want to end the M. Self worth and confidence were zero and I felt just like dying.

I suspect that your H feels the same but cannot admit it and your previous thoughts on the length and/or perhaps earlier A may be spot on. If not that then the details he feels will push you away.

Like I did, he has forgotten you want to work to save the M but need to know what to forgive eventually and what you need to understand. he just wants it all to go away is my guess

Thank you aussieswife. I try to reassure him that I love him and want our M to work. I’m sure the story I have in my head is much worse than what actually happened...or is it?

WH self-esteem is zero right now also so I’m trying not to bring up the A. We both just want it all to go away but we know it won’t until he is honest with me.

The fact that he can’t remember when the A started is beyond my comprehension and understanding. He can’t remember if there was snow on the ground or if there were leaves on the trees. Wouldn’t anyone remember at least the month they were unfaithful for the first time after a 30 yr marriage?

the FOG is really thick & it feels to many as
so romantic, no concerns, no worries, no conscience, no notice of anything outside it, so a lot is NOT thought about.

I suspect from my own experience that the dates though may be more guilt related, like it started on or near an important date, birthday, anniversary etc. You block that out of your mind and deny it even to yourself.

Its part of the heart of an affair, self deception. You can't lie well to others until you lie well to yourself first.

As for being worst than you think, what can be worse than an affair and all it involves? After all its only the details, the nuts & bolts so to speak, you already KNOW he cheated. However its the not knowing the details which drove my H up the wall. I know now he needed to put the actions and times into perspective for HIM, nothing really to do with me if you understand what I'm saying. I'm assuming its much the same for you.

tw,
I will give you radical honesty here.

Part of the problem here is YOUR view that you HAVE to have (what you call) radical honesty to "move on". As long as you are not open to moving on in any other way, then of course you won't move on. The FACTS are that you are CHOOSING not to move on.

It seems to me that you go to your husband and ask for honesty and then when he gives you an answer, you are basically telling him "don't tell me that".

Now.. There IS another way to move this marriage forward.
It is called LETTING GO. Let go of this constant so called need (it is only a preference, not a need) for you to have to know all these endless details.

YOU say he is remorseful. YOU say the affair is over.
IF the affair is over and IF he is remorseful and if he is living the life of a good and faithful husband, then why not YOU put this behind you once and for all. Who cares if he can't remember what month it started? Maybe he can remember AND maybe he can't. It is NOT worth the time YOU ARE WASTING.

You CAN be perfectly happy and have a GREAT relationship without knowing all these details EVEN if you feel he has held some things back. LET IT GO. FORGIVE. LIVE IN THE PRESENT..... BE GLAD THE AFFAIR IS OVER.

As long as you and others on here are STUCK on the belief that YOUR version of radical honesty is the ONLY way to a recovered and happy marriage, then you are stuck in the bondage of that belief. You want to change your feelings about something, then change your belief.

You CAN (and have the power) to put this behind you by dropping all these details you have told yourself that you "need" (it's only a preference) to know. You can be perfectly fine and perfectly happy and your marriage can survive wonderfully without ever knowing another detail about this PAST affair.

If not, then you are leaving yourself only two options.(IF he never comes to a point that you feel he is radically honest)
Being unhappy that you "feel" you didn't get the whole truth OR leaving the marriage because of it.

*************EDIT******************

Honesty is a critical element of recovery or there will be no recovery. But you already know this because you are experiencing it first hand. As you well know, you were not able to recover because your husband would not tell you the truth, not becuase someone TOLD YOU that you couldn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Stick to what the Dr. Harley says and what you KNOW. You will not recover until you know the truth. There will be never be any trust as long as your H has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy.

Here is what Dr. Willard Harley says about honesty, and nowhere does he say to withhold details the WS feels are too damaging:
1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

From:

Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

As any betrayed spouse who has EVER been through recovery knows, this is pure unadulterated ****. What you are saying is that RADICAL HONESTY is the real problem here instead of LACK of honesty. What nonsense. IN REALITY, the BS is never happy UNTIL they have all the details ABOUT THEIR OWN LIFE, to their satisfaction. They can never TRUST without the truth, which means recovery never happens. The withholding of details about ONE'S OWN LIFE is a grievous assault, a lie by ommission, that PRECLUDES recovery. Withholding facts is to COMPOUND THE CRIME, not alleviate it. It is adding LYING to the already existing assault, the affair.

KMF... there may be a place for your thinking with some people... but it is not for this poster. You seem to consider yourself some type of big philosophical master... yet, your posts are coming across as more ridiculous than those that feel there is but one way to do things. In your attempt to say that this is all about perceptions... you are being far too dogmatic with your own views. I believe that a BS should get to decide what is in their best interests. If they can recover without the intimate details of things... IMHO, they will be better off. But that is my opinion... you have shared yours with this poster, as have others... so why not back off. It appears as though you have an agenda here to use WS thinking that ... the past is in the past, it doesn't mean anything now, keep our eyes forward and NEVER look back.... Well, for some that looking back is important. It helps them make decisions as to how they want to direct their present and future. It may help them weigh their choices a bit more freely.

Dear TW ... this is for YOU to understand that YOU have legitimate needs !!!!!!!!!



the facts are that you have a need to know what happened before you decide if you want to remain married under the circumstances

this is your choice to make
and if another poster chooses to insult your choice, it tells you much about that poster


what you are saying is "Don't lie to me any more I cannot take it."

most of us understand what this dynamic is

but not all of us



yes, that IS a valid choice
but if it is not a choice that YOU can live with, then by all means do not choose to live with doubts and inconsistencies

we trust YOU to know how much detail YOU need to live in your own marriage


it is worth the time if it is eating into your ability to trust what he says TODAY knowing he still has the capacity to lie about his past


how does this feel TW to be told that your legitimate need for dignity and honesty in your own life is wrong?

To me, it feels like someone promoting their own values while infering that yours are wrong ... but, how does it feel to you?


This is more than a matter of "belief"
this is a matter of personal values

remember
"honesty & openness" is listed on Harley's site as an emotional need
if it is high on your list
it behooves you to respect that EN

what you have here is another poster telling you to abandon one of YOUR important ENs
because it is not high on his list


remember

this is NOT a "belief"
it is an EN


EMOTIONAL NEED for honesty and openness is nothing to be ashamed of


this is TRUE
if you are a person who does not have openness and honesty high on your list for ENs


if openness and honesty are one of your standards for a healthy marriage

YOU will be miserable without it

Pep

Polygraph. $600 money well spent.

HONESTY is on the EN list HERE [color:"red"] <~~~ click this link [/color]

More from Dr. Harley on honesty:

"You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage. "


From:Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Now, back to the original question:


Remorse is deep regret or guilt ... in other words ... it is a feeling the WS has, therefore subjective

it is IMPOSSIBLE to measure another persons feelings of remorse

what you can measure and look toward are actions that demonstrate remorse and willingness to

[color:"red"]do whatever it takes for as long as it takes [/color]

to make the marriage whole

sooooooooooo
you have a (common) senario where
1. there are feelings of remorse (H feels badly for what he did)

2. there is a lack of willingness to do "whatever it takes"

this is probably fear based that if you knew what he knows about his affair, you'd choose to leave him

It is my OPINION ... that in circumstanses such as these

qualified pro-marriage counseling sessions are probably what it will take to coax your WH to be brave enough to do what needs to be done

one of my past sig lines was:

We judge ourselves by our intent.
Others judge us by our behavior.

and that is what is happening here

what a former WS needs to acknowledge is ~~~> we BS are no longer impressed by the WS's "intent" ... we need actions to show proof of intent


Pep

****edit**** We have another case of a person defending radical honesty, but not really liking it when another person is radically honest. No one is insulting her choice. ******edit*********



That may be what she is saying and it may not be.*************edit*****************




****edit***** I am here to help her save her marriage. If helping her to save her marriage is doing what I suggest, then that is what I want. If she wants to keep pursuing radical honesty, then that is fine by me. I am for what works.********edit*********** I would rather stay open to other options in saving a marriage. ******edit**********. .




He will ALWAYS have the capacity to lie. Harley says that we should NOT trust our spouse and the sooner we realize that the better. NO?






*******************edit***********.

Trying to pressure and force her husband into radical honesty doesn't seem to be working very well to me. He DOES have a part in this marriage too. You are sadly mistaken if you really believe that she can't save this marriage because of this problem. It REALLY is only a personal preference that she wants radical honesty from him. It is NOT a "need". Do you know the difference? It is only a preference. No more, no less. I do understand what Harley is saying about needs. However. The facts are that we CAN live and survive without those "needs". ********edit************


***************edit***************

Honesty and Openness


Most of us want an honest relationship with our spouse. But some people have a need for honesty and openness -- it gives them a sense of security and helps them become emotionally bonded to the one who meets that need.
Those with a need for honesty and openness want accurate information about their spouses' thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities and plans for the future.

If their spouse does not provide honest and open communication, trust is undermined and the feelings of security can eventually be destroyed. They cannot trust the signals that are being sent and feel they have no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting, they feel off balance; instead of growing together, they feel as if they are growing apart.

Honesty and openness helps build compatibility in marriage. When you and your spouse openly reveal the facts of your past, your present activities, and your plans for the future, you are able to make intelligent decisions that take each other's feelings into account. And that's how you create compatibility -- by making decisions that work well for both of you simultaneously.

But aside from the practical considerations of honesty and openness, those with this need feel happy and fulfilled when their spouses reveal their most private thoughts to them, and very frustrated when they are hidden. That reaction is evidence of an emotional need, and if that is the way you feel, include honesty and openness as one of your most important emotional needs.

Post deleted by MelodyLane

Here is what Dr. Willard Harley says about honesty:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

"You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage. "

From:

Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Key takeaway is this statement, Dr. Harley: " But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile. "