m2,

... and my ex-wife was "a really nice person" to strangers too. I was the only person who she treated this way. (except perhaps OM, LOL)

-AD

I will take your advice as I can tell you have lived through a lot of this. Thanks for your excellent feedback!

M2, I really encourage you to continue the IC even if your W refuses Mc. I found it gave me a great sounding board and helped work out new approaches in a very frustrating situation. I would caution however against taking "advice" from a councellor that is not seeing both of you. This person should be listening to you and helping you discover new alternatives within yourself that may enable your wife to approach you differently.

About the lack of attraction, I have re-read your comments about your W physical attributes and her lifestyle decisions. Let me share that my H is a prof athlete is very good shape, an attractive man with a great sense of humor and a very similar choice in lifestyles to me. Even with all these ++ I still cannot conjure up any amount of lust or love for the man. I think once you lose respect for someone, short of rebuilding, it is impossible to feel attracted towards them.

I may be wrong, this is just my own experience. I can tell you that the whole "grass is greener" rountine is a falsehood. It won't be better somewherelse with someonelse until you make every effort to repair what you have helped to break. Once you have expended every effort you must continue to analyze how you contributed to the "mess" your relationship became. Without this follow-up you will continue to repeat the same mistakes again and again and your next relationship will most likely fail as well.

One thing I tried that I found very successful was not to look at his shortcomings but to focus on how I could become a better person. This can be done even if your spouse continues her current behavior. The changes you will ultimately make within yourself (becoming a better communicator, being more comfortable disclosing feelings etc)may ellicit a change in her reactions as well. If not you are still becoming a better person and you haven't lost anything.

The time is going to go by anyways, spend it improving yourself for yourself and your children.

Hello Macker,

I will come at this from a different perspective -- that of a person whose mother behaved very similarly to your wife as you have portrayed her in your posts.

From the time I was about 4 or 5, to the time I was 13, my mother was physically and verbally abusive. The physical abuse stopped when I got to be as tall as her. The verbal abuse continues to this day. I cannot begin to tell you the many ways that has negatively affected me and my siblings.

I know that you say your wife has not turned her vitriol on the kids. That may very well change if she is truly abusive. And particularly if she loses her current target -- you.

My father protected us from the worst of my mother's physical abuse, and his calm presence I think often stopped her before her behavior escalated. You will not be able to protect your kids if you are not there.

So, when you are making your plans for the future, think twice about whether you are willing to leave your children with a woman you claim is abusive.

And if you can't bring yourself to see her as a potential danger to you kids, then I think you have to ask yourself whether she is really abusive, or whether you are just trying to find something to justify leaving a marriage rather than working to fix it.

Tru

You are living with a person like me.

You are staying together for the sake of the kids. That means that you are treating your wife like a concubine.

Why is she abusive? Why is she out of shape?

Look in the mirror.

Treat her like you care about her. Fake it till you make it. Ask her if there is anything you can do this week that would be positive for her. Ask her if there is anything you are doing that bothers her.

When the children become the only priority in a marriage, that means that the spouse is not a priority.

Respectful

My mother was pretty much your wife, and my father was pretty much you.

She exploded over the least thing, and he shrank down and 'took it'. He didn't fight back, but simply let her walk all over him, and worked hard to placate and appease her.

As their child (only child), what I saw was a weak man who not only couldn't stand up for himself, but was completely unable to stand up for me. When my mother's wrath spilled over onto me, my father melted into the shadows and left me to it. He was unable to support me in my own self-defence, so that I was left to find ways to protect myself, with inadequate childish weapons.

What kind of message do you think your children are getting, Macker?

Do you think your children feel reassured that you would be able to defend them against their mother?

Witnessing abuse of a parent is just as traumatic to a child as abuse to themselves - did you know that?

You are allowing yourself to be abused. What are your boundaries? What are your plans to enforce them?

What is your payoff for being a martyr?

TA

What kind of message do you think your children are getting, Macker? The message up until now is that I am not a quiter and that I will try to do whatever I can to make myself a better person so that in some way this might change the dynamics of the family to enable things to function better.

Do you think your children feel reassured that you would be able to defend them against their mother?
I am not worried about my kids with their mother. She would never lay a finger on them. She can get pretty violent with me but that is because in the past I have been verbally abusive to my wife. She is very protective of the kids and she is a very good mother. If I am under estimating my wife and she did become abusive to my kids then yes I know that they know I would defend them. They are my everything. I wouldn't be at this site if I didn't want to do everything I could for my kids.
Witnessing abuse of a parent is just as traumatic to a child as abuse to themselves - did you know that?
Yes. I have read some Dr.Phil books and I have been aware of this for as long as it have been going on. You don't help the way I feel about things by pointing this out as it is something that I am very aware of but as I have said before I don't feel that I am the driver in this situation.
You are allowing yourself to be abused. What are your boundaries? What are your plans to enforce them?
My boundaries are that from this point forward I will not be verbally abusive to her and this should stop the physical abuse that she counters with. If for some reason this doesn't work then I guess I will have to move on.
What is your payoff for being a martyr?
The payoff is that HOPEFULLY, my kids will see that things can be resolved. The message will hopefully be that I did not run from the situation but I tried to do everything that I could. As bad as things have been I am still hopeful that they can be turned around as long as I do my homework. I am glad that I found this site as it is helping me to do what I should have done more of before getting married and that is looking into things a lot more before acting on them.

When you got home from work, did you ask her if she could settle the kids and you could spend a few minutes together talking -- or did you snarl "Leave me alone" on your way to read the paper, leaving your "wife" to make dinner and take care of the kids?

Here is the wisdom of John Paul II:
"Resentment arises from an erroneous and distorted sense of values...Resentment posesses..the distinctive characteristics of the cardinal sin called sloth. St. Thomas defines sloth as a sadness arising from the fact that the good is difficult. Resentment not only distorts the features of the good but devalues that which rightly deserves respect, so that man need not struggle to raise himself to the level of the true good but can light-heartedly recognize as good only what suits him, what is convenient and comfortable for him. Resentment is a feature of the subjective mentality: pleasure takes the place of superior values.

You're in the right place to be on an infidelity forum. First step is to find justification to devalue the person you chose to marry and with whom you had children. Next step is to unfavorably compare the person you married to those around you to whom you are not married. You are on the path to being unfaithful. If you aren't already unfaithful, congratulations because you have time to look in the mirror and change how you treat your wife. Most cheaters don't think through what they do. They just do it and claim to be "confused".

Respectful

Most of the posts on this site make sense.....

Ah, yes, the old zinger... "That doesn't make sense."

Or the even cleverer "Most of the posts on this site make sense."

You just disclosed what you do to your wife.

Respectful

I was being sincere when I said that I did not understand what you were trying to say. There were a lot of quotations and references that I found hard to follow and irrelevant to my personal situation. Please don't take offense I was hoping that you could maybe explain YOURSELF. I am not interested in arguing back and forth about what kind of person you think I am. I am being vulnerable here and I do not appreciate your assumption that "YOU JUST DISCLOSED WHAT YOU DO TO YOUR WIFE". Please be supportive and constructive and I will do likewise in return.

macker2

here's my two cents...

I think you should seek legal counsel and get your ducks lined up...
I think you should seek legal counsel with intent to seek primary custody with visitation for your wife...

I find NO excuse for your wife's abusive actions any more than I can find excuxes for an abusive husband's actions....

This has nothing to do with belief that this marriage can't get turned around..
but you need a strong concrete plan with the correct tools to navigate this mess....

But I know if I were you I would not accept that from a year from today ..this minute my life would be the same...
so you have to prepare for all kinds of changes.....

THE MOST IMPORTANT changes must start with you ...and the most valuable tool you will need is to seek great humility and compassion for your wife.....

you need to totally let go of all that you have clung to in seeing your wife...which is not going to be easy since she has chosen to show you great ugliness and seek compassion that you see how wounded she is to lash out so...

THIS is a tough balance of faith and love because in seeking humility..does not can not and must not offer EXCUSES for her behavior.....

which is the easy route....

To gather your tools I suggest that you go to an abuse shelter...which in and of itself is a great act of humility.....as society easily and readily acknowledges and labels women in abusive situations.....and red flags men living in such a place...but you gotta look past and realize that the shelters have great teaching tips advice and tools to help YOU deal with this issue ..which in turn help your wife...

you love your wife...
you swallow your pride....is she was alcoholic...we would be telling you to go to alanon....this is NO different..

you work from home ..you have the freedom to contact them during the daylight hours...
do so....

Also I suggest you contact the harleys of this site for professional counsel....or I suggest you contact new life live....and attend their workshops throughout the country...
they are great supporter of this site...as well as offering their programs.....

I am serious about this....
you need a coach pratically to get you through this....

Eventually you will need to disclose to your wife that you have NO intention in living like this that...

that you seek and desire and true partnership of nurturing....and that you are not going to live your life in a battlefield...but this must done lovingly...without threat.....and without any concrete date .....never ever say if you or this doesn't change by this date I am out of here...it is an undermining of good work....

I think you should buy YOURSELF a copy of the proper care and feeding of husbands by dr laura schesslinger...and you should read it. and not say a word about it....

also you have to reclaim your faith that people can and do change all the time....and believe in this for you and for your wife.....

you don't feel attracted because you are so unattached on so many levels...
who should feel attractive to someone who physically hurts them...
wakes them up at night yelling and yells at the children....

let go of the dismay of how things are right now between you two....they are exactly how they should be based on each of the actions....

the goal is to get where they aren't like this...

but you need concrete professional help to get there....

ARK

Macker2,
I certainly see some similarity between your wife and me. It's hard to be hurt over and over and over. A comment like you made was a sideways jab at me. I can't tell you the number of times my husband has said "That's not reasonable" or "That doesn't make sense" or "That's ridiculous."

It took my going to the MarriageBuilders Weekend in June to realize I was reacting to disrespect. Now I don't react. I am silent or I leave.

And I ask. Abuse is about power -- thinking you need to win and the other person needs to lose. Care is about win-win, finding what works for both. If you engage in arguing, if you make remarks to your wife about how she doesn't make sense, then what you are doing is engaging in abuse. If you ask questions, that shows care. That shows you are looking for win-win and need to collaborate to find it.

I do have a different perspective from others, having chosen to remain in an abusive relationship and see if my change in actions can result in a change in the relationship to one of mutual care and respect. But I had to start with myself. And the very first step was to not argue. Now I am trying to ask.

Even with all the IC and MC we have had, including from Dr. Harley, nothing was going to change until there was a change in behavior of one of us. I was trying to change his behavior. What I had to figure out was the only change I could effect was a change in my behavior.

Consider reading the book "Love Busters". The old saying "Actions speak louder than words" is true. Show by actions that you care and see what follows from that of a change in her behavior. It's been no quite four months since the MarriageBuilders Weekend for us, and there is much less anger. My husband does sometimes get angry -- such as when he got upset at me on Sunday because I didn't answer his question -- I had -- I guess he hadn't heard me -- but nothing came of it. I didn't try to defend myself past saying I had answered his question. He was upset, in the car, for over an hour. I was silent.

With the goal of mutual benefit and mutual pleasant conversation fixed in my mind, I simply do not participate in anything that is unpleasant.

Respectful

Sure, but school does his too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kids learn patterns for their life from how their parents get along. This is not an "unhappy behind closed doors" marriage that is trying to shield the kids. His wife is not going for that. So his marriage is damaging the kids too. All things considered, the kids are hosed either way.

On top of that, physical abuse is physical abuse even if the victim is the man. If she will hit the father, are you sure she won't hit the kids?

Dude, I'd get out. Get documentation of how your wife treats you and the family and then separate. If the separation serves as a wakeup call such that she wants to work on the marrage, go for it. If not, use your documentation to take her to the cleaners in the custody hearing. Your life will be better. Your kids lives will be different, but no one is going to be able to predict if their lives are better or worse given where you are coming from.

I too am in a marraige that right now is having its major problems. We have been married for 19 yrs and have 3 kids ages 11, 8 and 5. My wife has said she doen't love me the way I love her and we are in the process of separating. I am finding this very hard to deal with, she does not have a steady job and does not have a good income. She is moving out in the next couple weeks. I know she talks to another male on a consistant basis who she has similar likes with and I have confronted her on a couple of instances, she assures me that he is only a "friend", I need major advice on how to keep my cool and not call her nasty names and hate her. please help

sbecker086,
If there is ever a time when a person will be abusive, it is when the spouse is openly showing care for a "friend" of the opposite sex.

You can start a new thread on your situation rather than appending to this thread by hitting the post key at the top of the GQ II screen. Most of the people here are BSs (betrayed spouses). Some, like me, were very angry and upset.

The key to remember is that your goal is not just to stop the affair. It is to have a great marriage. You won't have a great marriage by calling her nasty names. I started getting upset about my husband's relationship with this woman in June, 2001 and stopped getting into arguments in June, 2006. Being upset and anagry did absolutely no good. When you are angry, recognize that it is counter-productive. You simply help her justify her affair.

A friend of mine told me, "Don't run interference for his conscience." By being angry, you are taking the focus off her behavior and putting it on your behavior. And that's just where she would want it. Then she could commisserate with her "friend" about how terribly you treat her. The worse you treat her, the easier it will be for her to continue her affair.

Respectful

Thanks for the reply,
We have separated for the most part. I moved out October 1 and will be moving back in sometime in November. She has found apartment and she will move out. My problem is I do not trust her right now, and she has said I shouldn't. I really want the marraige to work and have offered to go to major intense counseling and if that doesn't work give up on the marraige. How do I convince her that our marraige is worth saving.

You didn't start a new thread, but I'll respond to this post.

I spent five years trying to convince my husband. It did absolutely no good.

She seems to be admitting an affair to you. She's told you about a friend, and she tells you you shouldn't trust her. So -- what are you going to do about that?

I don't feel as though I can comment further. In your situation, you are the male and a betrayed spouse. In the thread we are hijacking, I can plug right into what the wife might be feeling and thinking because my husband has hurt me in a similar way. I just can't relate to your situation because, in your situation, the mother of young children is walking away from her husband. She's walking into the arms of a man doing something despicable to you, her, and her children. In my story of infidelity, I most understand the feelings of the betrayed wife and have tried to understand the feelings of the man who is willing to cheat with a married woman with young children (that's what my husband did), but I don't understand or relate to the feelings of thoughts of the wife and mother of young children who would betray her husband (that's what my husband's lover did).

It sounds like you are in a lot of changes with you having just moved out, her moving out into an apartment, and your moving back into the house. With so much volatility, you have opportunity to make helpful choices and opportunity to make choices that will help her to justify her actions.

If you call into Harley's radio show, they'll give you advice and probably offer to have you call back into the radio show over a period of time. Harley is particularly concerned about marriages when there are young children involved.

Respectful

Have you thought of setting up a hidden camera to catch this abusive behavior?

I would do this and call the police. Put a restraining order on her and get her out and away from your kids. This situation is horrible.

The thing is that the second you took a step to defend yourself she would be made out to be the victim. You have to be especially careful with this as a man, but protect yourself and your children. Do it for them.

A separation could shake her into reality. It may not.

Good luck.

Macker,

I see that you have not posted today.

I hope you'll be back.

I agree with you that Thoughtful's post seemed out of context for this thread. I think she has you confused with somebody else - perhaps with her H, perhaps with another poster on this forum.

Have you had any opportunity to use the suggestions I gave?

Has your W verbally attacked you in the past couple of days? If so, have you avoided being defensive? Have you avoided making a counter-attack? From my own experience, I know that it's very hard to do, but it makes a difference.

This is a long process, requiring patience.

-AD