Call on the radio show or for counseling? I've been working with Jennifer C and think it's time for another session.

WW and I are about to go our separate ways for the holidays (she's taking the kids to her parents before XMas and then I take them to mine after). I'm not sure how effectively I can Plan A at this point. When I was doing it, the most I got was her getting angry from being in conflict. She completely resisted letting me in and seems to move away whenever I try to get closer. It makes me wonder whether I should just keep up the Plan B. I think I will feel healthier and happier without her around--even though I know it is the addicted alien (and that my W is buried deep in there somewhere and doesn't know how to get out) talking and acting, it still gets to me sometimes. The bit about OMW making progress with Plan A gives me a jolt of strength, though.

sd...have you read the Carrot and Stick of Plan A by Pepperband? If not, it's been bumped up a lot today, and it would be a great read for you.

Hang in there,
SD

I've read it (and reread it). I did Plan A for many months but wasn't getting anywhere. She hasn't given an inch on letting me in for the past year. I think it's too late for Plan A but will ask the experts.

Tonight she was in our home with the kids when I came in. Last night she went Christmas shopping with the OM and stayed at his place. She has an apartment but has only used it as an excuse to stay over at the OM's place (i.e., she has not spent the night there yet). So tonight, it looked like she planned to stay here (she apparently had no plans with OM). I asked her if she was going to, then when she said she didn't know, I said why don't you not. Predictably, she got all huffy like there was something wrong with me but packed up some stuff and left. As she left, I went and watched her leave (thought maybe I heard her crying--wasn't the case). From the car, she flipped me off, then told me I could call the OMW in an accusatory tone and that maybe I could arrange a date with her. It's the alien talking, of course, but I'm not sure how to Plan A in the face of that. Maybe after the holidays. I'm proud of myself for just smiling and watching her go and not responding to her. Many, many things I could have said (like how sick it was for her to spend the night with OM when his 3-year old daughter was there), but I didn't. Progress.

On another note, I have a former female co-worker whose husband was having an A--theirs was maybe six months ahead of mine. Also in the workplace, and (like my infidels) they also refused to stop working together. My friend had to change jobs, but the two infidels still work where I do. I saw them yesterday, and the OW was no longer wearing a wedding ring. Based on what I saw (not the only time), what I have learned here, and my own personal experience, I'm pretty sure their affair is still going. I hadn't talked to my friend for a while, so I gave her a call to see how things were going. What she told me only made me more worried, so I told her my suspicions and why (and my own situation). She got upset (understandably) and was going to go in and confront the WH. I tried to talk her out of that--you're too upset and emotional right now. Be cool for the rest of the night. Figure out how to get proof, and in the mean time take a walk, play with the kids, watch him, but don't confront him tonight. It won't go well.

As I was driving home I was thinking about her situation. She was really upset, and I thought that maybe I should try to have lunch with her tomorrow--give her a hug and the understanding of someone else in the same situation. As I thought through that, I realized that a hug for two people as broken and angry as the two of us are right now might go somewhere else, and *then* I realized that I wanted it to go somewhere else. It was surprising. I worked with her for close to 8 years and have never been attracted to her, but in that moment the concept of kissing her and having sex with her was very appealing. Maybe it still is. I'm so emotionally starved, and she will be so angry, and who would be hurt by it, and, and, and . . . .

Man. This stuff is scary. Seeing how obviously insane my WW is right now makes me that much more confident that she will come out of it at some point, but what happens between now and then? I'm looking forward to her being gone with the kids. I want some time to myself--I have a lot of things I want to do. For myself. Sleeping with my friend isn't one of them.

This is hard.

Wouldn't it have been just as easy to say something like "you know, it's really nice having you here tonight" "shall we __________________________________________(suggest doing something you both used to really enjoy) "and by the way, have I told you recently how much you mean to me, and I will be constantly trying to figure out how to make amends to you for the shortcomings I brought to our marriage".

Plan A is filling her Love Bank, not making (sorry) snide remarks to remind her she's behaving like a slut!

Think these things through, and eliminate the Love Busting, and fill her EN's. That's Plan A.

Think about it!

Best wishes,
SD

SD,

Sounds as though your Plan A has gone on for too long.



You both will be hurt by it.

Neither one of you are finished w/ the marriages you are currently in.

It's good that you were honest w/ yourself about what your true intentions were in getting closer to this other woman, so now you know how vulnerable you are to this type of thing.

Be careful.

Your kids need at least one parent who is grounded in reality.

Hang in there.

((((((HUGS))))))

~ Marsh

Thanks, Marsh. That's kind of why I posted it. Self-realization. Pointing out the danger to myself and others.

I think my true intentions were letting a friend know that her husband is still cheating on her. All during the phone conversation, all I was thinking about was helping her with her marriage and telling her about mine and how I want it back. It was only later that the urge kicked in, and I'm pretty sure it was just one of those "in the moment" things. It was powerful to realize that if I had really been in that moment, things could have gone very wrong. Probably exactly the way most affairs start. I have said to my WW for a long time now that I understand how the affair probably started and more specifically that it could have been me rather than her.

I think the Plan A window has closed and am feeling healthy for a change (felt good last night after she left, felt good with the kids this morning). I have an appointment with Jennifer tomorrow, though.

hey Sd,

I know exactly how you feel, I have seriously considered confiding in an EX, someone who I don't see very oftn, but we know some friends in the same circle. I know for a fact that this person still has those feelings for me, it would be so easy to be comforted by her. I know she would jump at the task.I have frequently thought, if I let it slip about my M problem, OP could take the lead. these thoughts are normal I guess. and there are many reasons I have not gone through with it. I don't want to do what my WS has done to me, to someone else. It would not be fair to OP. My intentions would be purely selfish,. the thing is, I have often wondered about this EX. how it would have been and such. and now I know that it would not make me happy.

that may not be much help, but I am in this for a short time as well, just want you to know you are not alone.

I sense exactly what you are feeling. I have been reeling since I found out in Oct. I would have good days, where I would plan A very well, then very bad days, with many EO and AO. saying the meanest things I could possibly say. I have even given ultimatums, if you can't stop, then go. my WS has been looking for job/apt. I have been trying to plan B her while in the same house. every day a different emotion

just this week though, I am feeling a sense of control. it is not easy, still hurts, every second, but now I don't know. I think I just might be able to plan A. if she still wants to spend time in the house with you, there is something keeping her there. she won't admit it. but there is.

I have started talking to myself. I stop myself before I say anything, to anyone and evaluate why I feel this way, will my words or actions make a difference. the pause is just enough to prevent an outburst. and whenever my W says or does something typical of WS, I excuse her in my head, to myself. something like "she's just drunk" or like I did with the kids "he's just teething" it lets me refocus and ignore the bad stuff.

the thing is, I have only been doing this for a week (the real planA), and already I see change in my W.
she still has the WS behavior and talk, but in between that I see shades of my W, and she is nicer, sweeter than before. maybe this plan A will really work, If i have the strength to carry it out for more than a day or 2. what I thought was plan A was really just me panicing, and freaking out, and grabbing onto anything that comforted me.

just my thoughts, hope it helps

Thanks, FB. Glad to hear that your plan A is getting you somewhere. Keep up the good work! And your self-talk is good. Like Marsh said above, it's not your W, it's your WW. It's the alien. If you think about her as possessed by an alien and thus insane, it's easier to deal with the behavior.

My Plan A was solid. I completely eliminated AOs or EOs and was working on annoying habits. It worked just enough to put her into conflict (she got angry that I was still trying), but she could tell what I was doing, didn't trust it, didn't want it (wanted to keep the A going), and completely shut me out. Hence, Plan B.

I'm optimistic, though. The progress on OMW's Plan A shows the first cracks in the A. It will crumble sooner or later.

In the mean time, I am looking forward to working on myself and doing things I want to do. For example, I wish she was taking the kids to her parents' *longer* than she is. I have more wooden animals I want to make (I had the kids help me with the sets we are sending to the ILs so the gifts can be from the three of us), some home repair stuff that's been bugging me for a long time, making sweet rolls to take to neighbors for Christmas Eve, some movies I want to watch, etc.

Maybe I will want her back, and maybe I won't. I find myself thinking that the decision will be based upon what she comes back to the relationship with. I've read about the remorse that FWS's feel, that they ultimately recognize what a mistake it was, that they really didn't love the OP, that they still loved their spouse. I feel like I will need to see that--remorse, contrition, apology. Not that I expect her to come crawling back so that I can hit her with "I Told You So" every day (I have already said I will never say "I told you so"), but some acknowledgement that what she convinced herself about our relationship was a product of the affair fantasy. Marsh (and others), is this a realistic expectation, do you suppose? Will I ever see this? I have the sense that if she tries to come back, I will know if it's really her, but I suspect it will take much longer to see the things I want to see. Right?

sd, I feel the same about the comeback. I am enjoying some space from my WS. before, I couldn't function without being consumed by WS needs. but I am hesitant about jumping back too soon. maybe thats why I am getting comfortable in Plan A. I need space for myself. to deal with my issues myself. I am coming to the conclusion that I don't want my identical W back, or the WS. I want the W who has learned to be a better partner in life. that is the factor that will decide whether we make it or not. whether we both are open to the changes that are needed to have a healthier, stronger relationship.

even though I am still devastated by the A, I am giving it less power now. because I know how inflated it actually is. its full of hot air. I am feeling more secure because I know of the strength of our foundation. it remains strong. just waiting for a pin to pop the ballon.

Is it threatening for infidels to know that their spouses are talking? I have been chatting with OMW on occasion, including telling her about this place and the principles of marriage recovery taught here. She used the term love-buster the other day, and OM said "Have you been talking with [me]?" My WW later angrily told me I should call OMW and could maybe get a date with her. They seem to be very threatened/angry when we talk. Is this common?

Also, still looking for some thoughts on the below. OMW is, too. I would appreciate any input.

It will take much longer.

Bottom line is you need to see the affair ended. Then NC then they withdraw from OP - maybe takes 6-8 weeks. At that point you will probably start seeing glimpses of the person you married and maybe some remorse and regret.

Figure on 6 months for them to really get it fully.

But it slowly gets better.

In a couple of days I'll be heading home with the kids, and my WW should be moved out of the house. I will help her move the last few things and then begin serious Plan B (tried to avoid her as much as possible previously, but it was difficult). Any thoughts on whether I should change the locks on the house? I suspect she expects to be able to come and go when she needs to, but I'm not sure.

Also, what about contact with the OMW? This seems to really irritate the infidels, but I'm thinking it should only be done when necessary rather than as a means to provoke the infidels. Any thoughts?

I think it is good to talk to the other betrayed spouse. That way you can support each other, and get a head's up when the infidels are about to do something.

I have kept in contact with my ex's OW's BH for 3 years now.

Yes, by all means, change the locks. Sends a great message and keeps the WW from removing things that you don't want removed. I agree about keeping in contact with the OMW as well.

The OM's STBXW and I have become great friends (trauma buddies as she calls it). My EX WW and serial cheating, lying, old, STD laden, OM appear to be headed to the altar once he's divorced. She will rue the day just not right now.

hey Sd, checking in on your sitch.

I am almost plan B ready as well, scared ****less. I am getting the same assumptions from my WS, as if when she moves out (next sat btw) she will be able to sleep on the couch on those days when its more convenient for her. if I stay in plan A a bit longer would this be OK?? anyone have input on that?? Oh, and she has a gym at her complex, said that I could use it if I wanted to, is she crazy????

I also would love to see some regret, remorse, sorrow. any normal reaction that would indicate there is love under there. with such focus on NC and ending the A, I have not been able to focus much energy on the next step. I have considered the fact that I am unsure of my desire to put up with this relationship one sided indefinately! it seems as if NC is just the beginning and I, too, find myself questioning being in it for the long haul. the amount of selfcare involved seems enormous, I now know I am capable of standing by her in this regard, question is, after all the good plan A taking care of me stuff, I am questioning whether I really want to.

some elements of my W were apparent this weekend, but after 3 short peaceful days, WS reared ugly head and asked if I would mind if she met OP for lunch. I had all I could do to not to rip her head off. Lucky for her I am having a great deal of inner peace with the move out plan, and I simply responded with a "sure, but pack your stuff before hand as you wont be sleeping here again after that" and a smile , of course.

skies are foggier than ever again!!!!!!

I'm now home from the holidays with the kids. WW has moved out but has taken very little from the house (okay with me--if she comes back, I don't want anything the OM has been around coming back with her).

Today is the first day she has taken the kids overnight at her apartment. Leaving this morning was very hard knowing that. I tried to be nonchalant about it when I left, but after my 3-year old daughter came running out to me because she forgot to give me a kiss, I lost it. Waterworks. Roller coaster day. Hope I can sleep.

The OM recently told OMW that the affair ended 2-3 weeks ago and that they are just friends now, but I have GPS data that shows WW spent the night at his apartment 4 times in the last ten days. Why lie, we wonder? My initial reaction was "because that's what infidels do" and "it would be great for them if we believed that something other than the affair killed our marriages." But then I started wondering. Does he think she's an idiot and wouldn't eventually find out?

So...I find myself wondering--if WW and OM really are perfect for each other, would that look any different to me? I look at their behavior, and it is textbook fog/alien/denial wayward, which makes me believe they can still come out of it. But what if they're in the, what, 5% who can keep a long-term relationship born from infidelity going? How would I know? Can I? Would their behavior still be the same?

Hang in there, FB. That's what I'm trying to do.

Did you tell OMW's about the stay over's?

SD,
I am feeling the same way about items purchased for the "I need to **** around pad" don't want any of that crap back in my house. my WS keeps saying "if it doesn't work out, we wanted this couch anyway" IMO WS and OP, just like your WW and OM are all still very confused. I suspect the OM is trying to keep OMW in his back pocket, maybe he is not so confident that they are "meant to be" thats why they want to keep all of the BS's hanging on bit by bit. after all, how well do they know ea other. certainly not like they know their spouses and vice versa.

my WS said it well when she said "I am risking everything that has ever meant anything to me for something that I have no idea is even going to work out." btw you know they are NOT perfect for each other, they are in this crazy fantasy land, well guess what? the ride is over, reality is going to set in. where does OMW think OM is when he is not sleeping at home?? do you speak with OMW?? she needs to know that they are having friendly sleep overs.

stay strong, you are doing great.