OM has been out of his house since May. And yes, I told OMW about the stayovers. I also suggested that she not confront him with the truth, since my experience is that it will only make them angry. Apparently, he still comes to their house and helps out with stuff--it sounds like cake-eating, but she's not ready for Plan B. It will be interesting to see how that plays out for OM and OMW. It's tempting to bring it up with WW (like a lot of things are tempting), but I am determined not to.

I can feel the depression back on me. I hope it clears up soon.

I am feeling your pain SD, I hope you have plans tonight, best to over schedule yourself and keep busy. hang in there. remember after the depression hits, the calm will come again. you know this because you've been up and down the hills of this roller coaster. I can't imagine how you feel, and I don't look forward to plan B either, but you are doing the right thing. how come it always has to feel like such crap though?!!!!!!!!!!!be strong

tonight is a hard day for me too. sat is always our family day/date night. as I always work on sun. this will be our last one. as WS will be moving into her apt. next sat.
I feel like crap, snapped at my son. my WS knows somethings bothering me, but is too far into withdrawal to notice or even care. I snapped at her too. guess nobody's perfect.

when is WW bringing the kids back, are they spending the whole weekend with her?? believe in yourself. she doesn't remember it, she is blinded. but she will see one day how you saved your M and she will thank you. imagine how that will feel. believe, stay strong. you can do this.

Thanks, FB. It's the roller coaster. The depression affects my appetite and ability to sleep. Kids come home tomorrow, and I will be ready.

I went to her apartment today (needed to use her car), and the place is a disaster. Almost no furniture, stuff strewn around. She looked awful, too.

On the first visit, the phone rang while I was there. There's only one person who would be calling her, but she didn't pick it up in my presence. The answering machine picked it up, and a man's voice said a few words (something like hello...are you there?). She picked up the phone briefly, then set it back down. Then she shrugged at me like "I wonder what that was all about". All I said was "yeah" (as in yeah, right--you're not fooling anyone--I know exactly who that was) (shoudn't have said anything, but couldn't help myself). She didn't like being caught out and snapped at me over nothing as I was on my way out. Insanity.

When I returned the car, I brought some stuff from the house to her and looked around the apartment a little more. We chatted briefly, and it was clear to me that she wanted to talk, but I politely excused myself. Insanity.

I am in the process of organizing my house and sprucing it up, and I feel really good about that. Seeing the kids and leaving them over there was really hard.

Hiker said it in another thread--you're going to feel lousy and won't be as patient with your kids, who need you now more than ever. Be on guard for it. It's what I'm trying to do.

Yuck, I can't believe it. you did well with the phone call. you could have gone off on her. I think its OK to show your displeasure with another man calling your W!!!!! she knew that you knew that she knew, you know??? no words were necessary. she was snappy because her reality is hitting as well. I swear at times they have themselves so far in denial, they actually think what they are doing is... hmmm... strong, noble, taking care of themselves, just trying to be happy... rationalizations all over the place. then when the 2 worlds collide like that, they feel the truth, they see it for the seedy, irresponsible, family wrecking, crappy thing it is. then they lash out at the one person who will take it, who they feel comforted by, who has always been and probably will always be there for them, the old spare tire left at the side of the road. yup, thats you and me. thats our role. be there when they need us, and go away when they are busy with OP, OM

I guess you could look at it as a compliment??!!? strange choice of words I know but there is safety in you. that doesn't have a lot of punch right now, but that commitment, that stability, that comfort, is what will show her the way home. she probably is not so secure to lash out at OM. he doesn't accept her like you do, he can't. they are not there yet. and may never be.

I don't know if your kids were ever in day care, but my youngest was. he would be an angel all day. then I would pick him up after 9 hours and he would melt down, cry, fuss, not listen. he did all this because he knew that I would always accept him, he could let his true feelings out. he knew that I was his mom, that he was safe, that I would never desert him. he had to hide his feelings most of the day because he didn't have that same trust, security in the babysitter. so when your wife lashes, remember its because she has that faith in you, that trust, that security. you have that over OM!!!!!!

you have more than you know, just keep believing.

btw, did you help her move into her apartment, what do your kids know, where they there when she packed up?? I am trying to figure out whether I actually want to be the one carrying in the new TV, you know. I guess I would rather it be me than OP. but I am sure it will be hard. did you give her a plan B letter yet????

I gave her a Plan B letter well before she actually moved out, and then it was difficult to implement. After consulting with Jennifer C, I gave her another letter before leaving for the holidays that was basically a reiteration of the Plan B concepts. Here's the text:

Dear WW,

I miss you. I miss being with my best friend. I miss
all that was good about us and our family. It makes
me especially sad because I know that things could be
very different. I have learned so much about
relationships, and I know that ours could be built
into something wonderful. I am a changed person
because of what I have learned. The life I am
proposing is something new--not going back to the
past. There are so many things we could do that would
spark our love for each other. That is what I want
because I still love you.

It is because I still love you that I can't see you.
It may feel to you that I do this out of anger or to
punish you somehow, but I do it because to do anything
else hurts too much. When I turn away from you, it is
not because I don't care, but because my heart is
crying. It doesn't have to be this way.

Until you are ready to give up your relationship with
OM, however, I will attempt to neither see nor talk
with you. I have to put up a protective wall around
myself. I hope that you can see down in your heart
that this separation is a way of protecting both you
and me under the current conditions. It's too
heart-breaking to do anything else.

I will help you move stuff on the 26th. You will need
to have the rest of your things moved out when we
return or I will box them up for you. Please
remember--this is not what I want. I want a new,
better life with you and the kids. The door is open.

She moved the stuff herself (she really didn't take very much). I had told her how upset I would be if I found out that OM had been in the house, and she seemed to respect that. She has one more heavy thing left, and I have agreed to help her with that. It's strange to me how little she has taken--none of the kids clothes, for example, or the old spare DVD player that was in the garage. She was going to buy a new one. Weird.

We have not talked to the kids together, so I don't know exactly what they've heard from her, but I think it's that we are angry at one another and can't live together anymore. That she's going to have her own house, and that the kids will have two houses where they live. They (my 7-year old, anyway) know that this is not what I want and I think understand that the only person that wants this is WW. If he asks me why we are angry at each other, I will tell him, but he really doesn't want to talk about it, so I don't push it.

your plan B letter sounds great. I am not sure I am ready. confused again. I keep re-evaluating our relationship and there are EN's of hers that I did not meet. but as I look at my own EN's I am starting to see that WS doesn't come close to meeting many of them. I am wondering whether or not its really worth it. I mean, I can't even get her to stop the A, and recommit, never mind the amount of change she will need to go through, now that I realize I don't want to live with the person I was with. I don't know if I have it in me to wait anymore. I am sad today. I am tired of not getting my needs met. I realize I wasn't as happy as I thought, its depressing.

but alas, I am not supposed to be bringing you down, but supporting your plan B.

my son is 8, he is the only one who kind of understands what is happening, I think he thinks I am responsible as he overheard me tell ny WS under my breath to "get the **** out of my house" then he asked if we were getting Div, and my WS said "maybe", he cried and then she left him alone. she doesn't deal well when people cry, I stayed with him and comforted him, I can't believe she was so irresponsible to just blurt that out, and then let it hang there. he knows she is getting an apartment and so far has handled it ok. a friend suggested I should talk to his teacher at school, she says they will give the kids extra attention as this is a hard time for them. It sounds good, I may do that next week.

hope your weekend is getting better. you are not alone, keep on keeping on!!!!

You already know this, I expect, but no, you can't get her to stop the affair. You can't get her to do anything. She's been possessed by an alien. She's not your W, she's your WW. But just because she didn't meet your needs before doesn't mean that she can't in the future. If you're like us, you may not have even known about them and certainly didn't talk about them. Like it says in the letter, it's not about going back to the past, it's about building a new relationship. I certainly don't want to be with who my WW is now or, for that matter, the person who let things get so bad that the affair became possible. I want to be with the person I believe she can be (and would want to be if she weren't so fogged).

I have the kids back now, which is good, but I'm plagued by the sensation that something is wrong. Which it is, of course, but this is what it is. Hard. I think it will get better.

I talked to my son's teacher when it became apparent that the affair was still ongoing and my WW was making noises about wanting out, and she thanked me for telling her. I will check in again with her and tell her that my son is now living in two places. Our day-care provider has known all along (I told her as soon as I found out about the affair).

Hang in there.

SDG

thanks SDG,
its really good not going through this alone, your words are a great reminder. good advice. I am happy tomorrow is monday, throwing myself back into the week feels good. sometimes I can talk the good talk, believe all the MB principles will work, but some days the wave just crashes too low. today was one of those days. staying online and posting makes me feel better. I don't know what I would have done if not for this place.

thanks for your input, you are very strong. your WW is lucky to have you. she will see the light. stay strong, stay close to those kids, that always works for me.

I think you have to know that you (and your kids) will be okay whether she comes back or not. So, plan B may not bring your WW back, but if you do it right, it will get you into a better place. At least, that's my understanding.

I know that better times are ahead for me whether she returns or not, but, man, it sucks right now.

First discussion about custody. My parents are coming to help support. They always come for the month of February, but this time they are coming earlier--on Saturday, so I asked if we could rearrange the schedule so that the kids and I wouldn't pick up the grandparents Saturday night only to go with WW for the next three days. I tried to do the negotiating via email, but she wanted to talk about it over the phone, so we did. WW wants to know why grandparents are coming so early. Says it's not helpful, doesn't give the kids a chance to adjust to the new routine. I say this is difficult for everyone and don't agree that having grandparents around will be bad for kids. Then she says that having them here so soon will make it difficult for kids to choose. . . Choose? says I. They won't be choosing, they will do what we agree. And then I hear myself saying the choice they're being exposed to is the one that you made. WW says And I'm sure you spoonfeed them that every chance you get. No, I reply, but it is the truth. . . . She said something like "Everything is still about you" that I totally didn't get, and I said that I was tempted to try to figure out what she meant by it but that I didn't want to talk to her, and then I got off the phone before I could do or receive any more damage.

Hard, hard, hard.

I know it's Fogtalk and that I should ignore it, but . . . what if it isn't? I have all these other things to say now--things that should show her how wrong she is, but maybe they are just to convince me that I'm doing the right thing. I'm not going to say them. I know they won't help. Maybe I'll write them down in a journal. This is why I need to limit communication, right?

She still sounds very foggy, especially about the kids "choosing". What is up with that?

You will probably need to stick to the schedule so you don't have to talk to her anymore. That is the point of Plan B.

They way I interpret the choose comment is that she is realizing or becoming afraid that if they were given the ability to choose, the kids wouldn't choose her. Her apartment is okay, but it's a disaster area, and it sucks compared to what "home" (especially with grandparents) offers.

I'm not saying anything about choosing or trying to poison them against her, but I'm also not lying and telling them that I'm happy about this. Last night, when my 3-year old told me she was sad because Mommy moved to an apartment (unsolicited), I told her that I was sad, too. And angry, my 7-year old chimed in--one of the first times he has voluntarily said anything about it (I don't force it on him), and I said yes, that, too. I don't think they know about the affair.

You're right about the fog. And about not talking.

Now three nights without the kids. Hard, hard, hard.

Be sure to let them know that dad has a plan. It will make them feel safer and more secure. You don't need to go into the details.

Why is your wife's place such a disaster?

Thanks for the tip about the plan. I hadn't thought about that.

She hasn't taken much stuff from the house, and she hasn't done a good job of organizing her place. She made noise about having the place ready for the kids to move in, but their beds are mattresses on the floor. Plastic storage boxes for clothes, which she didn't bring enough of (most of them are still in the house). Card table to eat at. And she's a pack rat and doesn't mind clutter, so there is lots and lots of clutter. For someone who isn't working and just had 8 days without the kids, it's pretty sad. But I take it as a sign of her mental state and am somewhat encouraged.

More fog and WS behavior: during the discussion about why my parents are coming early, she said If you need so much help to take care of the kids, she could keep them more. I didn't point it out, but my parents are also coming to help support me. She has someone to get support from. When the kids are not here, I am alone in the house. She's not alone in her apartment very often. She would, of course, deny this. It's another example of the denial of the effects her actions and the inability of a WS to consider anyone else.

It was in someone's signature--something like Never forget that the BS's feelings mean nothing to a WS? I can't remember the exact wording. I thought it was Mulan, but now I can't find it. Very accurate, though.

SD, thinking of you today/
its crazy how those statements throw you for a loop still.
I think you handled yourself quite well. I think the self absorption is apparent in my WS as well. she actually made a comment yesterday about how I am "deserting" her.

its odd but they are so self involved they have no clue as to how their actions are affecting spouse or kids. her comment about choosing is only about herself(feeling inadequate, seedy), sounds like she will feel isolated and alone when your parents visit. kind of out of the loop. this must be hard, because in a way she is reaching out to you, trying to connect. trying to engage.

perhaps she is starting to see what she is missing. stay strong. I wonder if anyone who has been through plan B can comment on how to deal with WS that continually try to reconnect. what else you may expect. never hurts to be prepared. stay strong. you can do this!!!!

Feeling anxious today. OMW tells me she is ready to give up. She's been trying Plan A, which she's now stopping, but she says she doesn't want to try Plan B. Because OM has been cake-eating, I tried to persuade her that it's too soon to give up, that she should get custody of her kids and make him face reality. But she points out that it's been a year and a half. Am I kidding myself holding out hope?

Well, see if she will post here for some support. These affairs always end.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS."

When the WS starts to protect YOU and care about how YOU feel, they are well on their way to becoming a FWS - but not before.

Mulan (also famous for having named Plan FU)

I have really encouraged her to post here. It's to the point of being pushy. I really wish she would, though.

Thanks, Mulan. I thought it was you.