Nothing helpful to add just wanted you to know all though the Spurs lost the first game they ae going to beat the breaks off the nuggets.

Chris, I like what Brokendreams posted. It was eloquent and heartfelt.

I hope that you daughter will, one day, take the time to write a letter to her mother telling her about her pain. I don't care who you are, when your own child expresses their pain, it cuts right to the core.

I can see by rereading my post that my last point wasn't too clear. When I stated that as parents our kids owe us nothing, I meant that very much applies to your W.

Your W doesn't deserve respect when she's done so much to lose it and she has no place to demand it from a child simply because she is her mother.

Your W doesn't understand this and the only person that can possibly get through to her on this is your daughter, not you. I can tell you, though, that if there was one thing that would enrage me as a parent against her is her attempt at making your daughter feel guilty about not wanting to be with her. I would become a bulldog at this point, defending my child against the wayward.

Looking at it objectively, though, the wayward would likely take any angry defense of the daughter as simply another excuse to continue disliking her.

Your daughter, however, owes your W nothing at all. Not one single thing.

The best thing your daughter can do to get the message across to your W is to not do a single thing on Mother's Day. My father went through this for a long time before I ever thought about simply calling. I still can't get him a card because it is hard to buy cards "For the best dad in the world" etc, when I don't really feel that and so many of them are that way. Your daughter will feel this pressure and you have to walk a really fine line of being her parent and telling her how to behave towards your ex.

I would do it like this:

Sit her down and say, "Sweetie, you're my angel and I love you more than anything in the world. Your mother will always be your mother, but I would be a fool to think this isn't burning you up inside. I can't tell you how to act towards your mom, but I can tell you that I will support you in however you do wish to act. I won't tell you either way what to do. Your relationship with her is yours alone, but I feel it would be wrong for you to be pressured in acting one way or another either because of me or because she pressures you to behave in one way or another. You owe me nothing. You owe her nothing. We brought you into this world and it is OUR obligation to love you unconditionally and raise you.

We did a beautiful job and you are living proof of that. But our job is not done as your parents. I will always be there for you no matter what.

Don't let the anger and sadness you have inside eat you up. Don't let that anger come out in other ways or make you vulnerable to bad relationships or friendships.

Let yourself grieve. You lost the family you knew and grew up with. It is dead. It is ok to grive it.

Your relationship with your mom is also dead. A new one will emerge from this mess, and it is ok to grieve the loss of the old one.

You need to let your mother know how you feel and I will support you in whatever way you chose to do so.

I won't tell you what to do because it would be wrong of me to do so."

Or something like that.

Heck, if you want, I can write her and tell her how to deal with this as an adult.

She is an adult, like others have said. But even as an adult the last thing you wish to see is the destruction of the family you knew and loved. She is at a very vulnerable age, just as I and my siblings were.

My brother was 12 when he went through this and he was very misbeahved throughout his teens and turned to heavy pot smoking up until recently.

I was engaged to a crazy woman and had a string of bad relationships with women that were totally wrong for me. They were women with tons of problems. By focusing on their problems I could forget mine.

And finally my sister got settled in her relationship for someone who was a workaholic.

All three of us dealt poorly with our parent's breakup.

You have an opportunity to gently coax her into getting help to have her deal with these feelings.

I wish you an her luck.

brokendreams,

Thank you for you thoughtful reply. I appreciate you taking your time to share your thoughts and experience. The callousness of a wayward mind even toward their own children is beyond my ability to believe. It’s bad enough for the BS but the children? I still have no idea how my wife became this person.

It’s time for bed. See you all on Perry Mason.

They are clueless.

Later, however, when the fog clears they look around and see the devastation the have wrought on the people they love the most.

I believe my father deals with this guilt regularly now. I have forgiven him and we get along well, but I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't resent him for what he's done.

I really believe that my wife would have had a much better relationship with my family if she hadn't met a bitter angry woman that had been brokenhearted by her husband and had instead met the loving, caring, welcoming woman she was before the divorce and the infidelity.

You will get angry as time goes on. It is part of the healing process. Just be sensitive about that anger towards your W in front of your daughter.

Complain all you want about OM. He's nothing to either of you. Just be careful about what you say about your W.

Your posts make me laugh and I really enjoy your dark humor.

chrisner---today your big day?

How appropo the weather, ha?

Good luck. I'll be thinking about you.

Thinking of you, chrisner. Update when you can.

The little green man will survive Wayzilla.

Here for you Chris!

Yello, bro. me again. excuse the nonchalant use of capitals
in the following-


brokendreams:

you express *very wise words*

"Your W doesn't deserve respect when she's done so much to lose it and she has no place to demand it from a child simply because she is her mother."

totally agree.

"The best thing your daughter can do to get the message across to your W is to not do a single thing on Mother's Day."

(that one, ESPECIALLY)

"It is hard because you're the betrayed and it is very easy to let your daughter become your confidant and the person you vent to. Avoid doing this. Remain her parent and remain concerned about her feelings."

again, so right, and I know what a good job he does with
this part of it all.
(I kinda make a point to feel stuff out once in awhile).
But he's a smart one, my bro. A smart cookie. No flies on
him.

DD knows she really only has one functioning parent right
now. maybe for good.


the sons and daughters have been, are, every bit as much
betrayed.

the (unavowed on paper) sanctity of the love, honesty
and trust in the unit called Family and the bond between
parent and child has been clawed at, ripped open, violated.
the most intimate core of their environment is gutted to
allow in horny strangers. YUCK.

even while the wayward is busy at the same time
swaddling themselves in layer upon layer of armor-
denial, defensiveness, self-absorption, all the delusive
crap. *Against their own children*

for me, it just repeatedly defies belief.

the inhumane callousness (and worse) of waywards towards
the pain of their own children is about the most disgusting
aspect of the whole thing.

It makes one itch to employ just a little bit of spiteful
hoodoo just out of a feeling of general contempt.
(Well, maybe not "one", maybe that's just me.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Bro, it's so great that you open up big opportunities for
A to talk to you, ask her good and pertinent questions, but
that you don't necessarily push her, either.
It's just good the two of *you* don't need *strategies*
to deal with one another.

You said: "I asked DD19 at lunch on Saturday if she
thought about what she will do"

It's so masterful. You keep tapped in, there's no force,
you are giving her as much information as you could hope to
get back (not that I think A is going to be elusive and
withdrawn with you, she's proven that to my satisfaction over
and over), but just a reminder about aspects of things to
come, that these things are on the way- good stuff for her
to mull over.
She must be also very relieved to hear and see how you
comport yourself. (mostly, it's been pretty good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

*looks at plastic talking Simpsons wristwatch*

well, he's headed in this morning sometime soon I believe.

good luck, brother.

*lights a candle*

The wayward doesn't get it through their thick skull that they aren't just cheating on the spouse, but on their children as well.

My ex still doesn't get this.

I told my son that his daddy left *US*, his family, not just me, and that DS can talk to me about that. I still can't believe that I'm talking to my 4 year old about this. Poor kid, he's only 4 and his foundation is cracked and some has settled deeper. I worry for his future, emotionally, which can, in turn, cause so many outlying problems. Oy

Send the report when you're back from court.

We're here for you, buddy.

Luuuuuuucy, I’m home!

If I continue to play nice and we stay civil (not hard to when you are in a dark Plan B) on June 13th 2007 the judge will pull the file out of the cabinet like Excalibur from the stone and declare, “Thou art divorced!”

9,532 Days of marriage.
1,361 Weeks and 5 days of marriage.
26 Years and 36 days of marriage.

Gone.

The burning question on everyone’s mind; How did Wayzilla look?

Ill and sickly. She was a kind of grayish green color under the courtroom lights. Everyone else in the room looked human. I have not seen her at all in 74 days but DD19 and her friend had described this. She has lost more weight that she can not afford to lose. She must be taking triple doses of noassatall. She was a once beautiful woman who has now turned to a sickly colored skeletal mannequin.

We sat before the magistrate for just under four minutes. Then Wayzilla, her attorney and I went to a conference room to talk about the “what next” of asset dispersal. She had two specific requests regarding money dispersal and a joint college fund for DD19 using my deceased mother’s savings account. I said no to them all and they gave in without any fight although my request of no future joint managed accounts clearly pissed Wayzilla off. Her attorney’s response to each was to look at Wayzilla and say, “Well, that’s how Colorado would like it too.” This all took less than five minutes.

Then her attorney asked how was DD19 taking this? It was quiet for a few seconds and I told him she is not doing real great. As Wayzilla is the petitioner he intuitively knew the source of her issues would be with Wayzilla so he quizzed her on her contact with DD etc. I knew he would never have been told of her A so when my chance came I took it.

I praised WW for her patience with DD and not pushing too hard although of the people in the room only she and I knew that her patience is waning quickly. Then I said I hope she understands how very long she may have to be patient and that the damage done to her relationship with her daughter may take a very, very long time to heal. Her face was complete unbelieving shock. Her attorney agreed with me and echoed my advice on patience.

Then I told her that if this had just been a divorce between two people who tried but ultimately had to agree to disagree, and DD would have been along during the process she probably would have come through pretty good. But her choice to introduce an affair partner into the marriage and then break the family hurt DD deeply. Her attorney sat up.

She shot back snarling the old, “That has nothing to do with our divorce.”

I said nothing, but her attorney leaned right to her and said, “But that’s not how she feels about it.” Score one for Little Green guy!

I told them that I have broached DD on IC and would like to see if we could get her into some sessions. Her attorney agreed enthusiastically and offered to forward a couple names he has worked with in the past. Wayzilla just sat there with this shocked look and maybe just a hint of “slowly dawning”. I told her how my bosses son has only started to reinitiate contact with his wayward mother 12 years after the divorce. The words “12 years” hit like a hammer.

She started to ask me to please reinforce to DD happy things about her mother. Her attorney interrupted her and advised her that I had to be very careful myself how hard and what I push on DD to preserve my own relationship with her. Who’s paying this guy? Little Green guy whacks off another Wayzilla toenail.

Then out of the blue Wayzilla loudly pops out that the source of DD19’s problem is the bad influence of her best friend (she is the one who went to the BBQ at Infidel Hotel). Stunned silence. It embarrassed me for her. My mind thought if DD19’s best friend takes an affront to infidelity she needs more friends like that not less. But I did not say anything (are you listening CJ). Her attorney very sincerely thanked me for working so hard with his client on DD19’s recovery.

Meeting adjourned.

Wayzilla still can not accept that she has any role in her daughter’s hurt feelings. It may just now be sinking in how deep the damage is. You could almost see her mind reeling with how she was going to begin a legitimate relationship with Gollum if her DD can’t accept the affair. But all of us here know that she will totally turn her back from DD if this comes to pass. DD19 knows this too.

50 days of my marriage left.

Whoa, Chris, I am crying, you did so beautifully. I am so proud of you. What a strong person you are.

I forgot to tell you, I'm paying Wayzilla's attorney a little 'under the table' money, to make WAKE UP calls during the proceedings. What a good attorney. Good boy!

Score one for the Jedi Knights!

Yeah, chrisner! Glad to hear the little green man got some points made.

You're an incredible man, keep up the great work. And don't think we don't appreciate how difficult it is to keep quiet at times. That is a HUGE accomplishment!

I told my mom the other day that she should be proud of me. Lately I've been trying to follow some advice she gave me as a child "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". No wonder WH thinks I'm ignoring him!

I'm proud of you, chrisner. You did a good job getting your WW to get a couple of "aha" moments that didn't look like they were coming from you.

Yeah...

We didn't tell ya, but it's the Killer Bees fund for to WAKE UP WAYZILLA!!! I believe it is possible that for a very few seconds today, she MAY have had a small glimpse of the damage she is doing by choosing Gollum over her own child. However, I have absolute faith that she will go right back to blaming you for everything and putting pressure on DD19 to "treat her with respect" when she had done nothing to earn it.

Chris--I am mighty proud of you!! You did VERY well keeping your mouth shut and letting our deep, DEEP, DEEP undercover agent do all the talking for you. If YOU had said any of that, Wayzilla would not have heard a word...but at least this way she heard it at least.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

GREAT job! It sounds like you really held it together well.

Scary to see how deep the delusion is. Why can't this barrier be penetrated? It still amazes me.

What's your sense? Did it come off the way you were hoping?

Good for you! Can I take lessons? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

:::I'm not worthy, bowing at your feet!::: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rin,

TJ, Are you up?

Still

Wow Chrisner, that's a good recap. Love the Wayzilla desrcipto and the green guy is tops!!! Either he is bowling you over or he is a clever one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I opt for the 2nd. If more WS' hire him....it will make the BS' lives much easier. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You did great. Hugz to you and your Dd. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.