Since WH backed off again from his promise and original plan, I haven't really mentioned it - he emailed me this morning basically asking the same things (1) timely resolution (he needs money) and (2) at the renegotiated level (= more money for him, as he needs money).

I replied to him saying that I do also want amicable resolution and I have always wanted that. But WH repeatedly (with the assistence of his nasty lawyer) backed off, changed his mind, broke his promises, etc., so emotional costs to me (feeling betrayed again) are too much for me. I explained in a calm tone but told him things I have wanted to say...

He replied right away thanking me for the email, but asked me to see things 'from his point of view' as well.....

Then he emailed me another one saying "one more thing...., if we agree, this time I will not back down and that is a promise".

I apreciate this, but wish he realized that how many times he had 'promised' me during the eitire time we were together....., he promised with my dad when he came to ask for my hand that he would learn my language so that he could communicate with my mom....., he did not even try to learn it...., didn't even buy tapes, books, nor sign up for classes. He said "now you are mine, I don't have to do it".

He promised that we could go back to my country if I missed home so much because he loved me very much...., the minute I entered this country, he told me "I cannot go and live there. It's too stressful"......

He did not have money to buy me an engagement ring and I did not want him to feel bad so I bought it myself (he had already picked it at the store) and he 'promised' that he would pay me back....., not even a penny came back.

He was smoking pot behind my back and I begged him to stop and he 'promised' like million times but he never did.... until he was arrested.

The list goes on......

Still I thought he was a sweet person and wanted to believe that he DOES want to honor his words......

He broke my heart so many times, and now he is (again) sweet talking with me b/c he wants me to believe that he would honor his promise.....

The logical side of my brain is warning me but the stupid and naive me is wanting to believe him again....sigh.

OK, back to work. Have a nice day everyone.

Milk

milk, i'm sorry for what you're going thru. i do follow your thread from time to time because i feel that this may be the route that WH and i may go.

i think in the end you would be better off without your WH. he has still a lot of growing up to do if he ever does.

i wish for the best for you and even for your DS. God bless you

I hate that you are in this phase, negotiating the divorce. That was a very painful time for me, to have to bargain your way to a divorce that you don't want.

((Milk))

Thank you Romans and Jean. There is nothing I can do about this but your kind words do help me a lot.

Milk

Wow, milkshake. I just spent a few hours reading through your threads and I cannot believe our similarities of our fears in leaving our M's. I am feeling most exactly the same things as you. For more info on my messed up M, here is my thread. If you read the last few pages you'll get an idea of what has been happening as of late. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3165163

I am still M, H still lives here. He has some mental issues as well. He is very childish and is the most lazy and selfish person that I know. But, just as your H, he has his good moments - kind moments that draw me back in. I have 6 yo twins. I feel immense guilt for leaving, guilt because of my kids mainly. Also guilt for my H alone.

Just a few questions for you if you don't mind. I can tell that you still have feelings for your H, that you wanted it to work but realized that there is only so much that you can do. You realized that he would not change unless he wanted to and you would have many years of more of the same. What was it in you that clicked. That made you take the next step to follow through with D? Where are you finding your strength and assurity that you are doing the right thing? I sense that in your heart you know that this is something that you need to do, but you don't want to do it. I feel exactly the same. Can you elaborate on what it was that made your thinking shift from holding on to letting go?

Thanks so much for your help and insight. I always thought that if/when a D came that I would be sure and secure in that decision. I would not have feeling for H any longer. I do still have feelings for H, but KNOW that I cannot go on with things the way that they are and have been. It is a battle within me right now. I"m not even sure how to define the feelings that I have for H. I don't necessarily WANT to be with him, ENJOY being with him. I think the feelings are a combo of familiarity, guilt, care. I don't feel a great love for him. Anyway, thanks for your input. I am really amazed at our similar situations. The difference in you is that you did something about it after 6+ months. I"ve been in limbo now for about 2 years. Thanks!

[color:"red"] suggested response: [/color]

[color:"blue"] "Today's promises, and future promises ... must be in writing and notarized. Thank you." [/color]

pep

i love that advice!

after he left, my H said to me...even though i cheated on you, I'd NEVER take advantage of you financially. This is completely different. You know you can trust me.

i think all rational thinking leaves during an A!

(I guess that explains why they are willing to crawl in the dirt and live with filth and think they are "sooooo happy")

Milk, what do you feel you ought to do? I want to hear your side of this, and your solution(s).

SS

Hi all!

My parents were here for the past two weeks and also I have been quite busy at work preparing for my presentation this morning (it went well, by the way) so I haven't had a chance to get back to you all -

Callie, I don't mind telling you anything that may help you out - that's why we are all here. I have been helped and supported by so many people and if I can return even if only a fraction of it, I'll gladly do so!

First, though, our situations seem similar, but the difference is that my WH filed. I had been frustrated and was talking to my friends about our M and how I felt that I almost wanted D in the past....., yes, I was in that situation too, but in the end WH filed. I think even though I was definitely NOT happy about our M and WH, I could not pull the trigger. Also, a big part of me was always reminding me of a nice & gentle H I remembered which made me believe that our love is genuine and we were meant for each other. Because that is what I wanted to believe, I guess. Also the fact we have a child together of course made it hard for me to actually do anything about our M. I thought even though I had many complaints about WH, our M would carry on....., that is how I felt and I was naive.

Well, however, several months after he pulled the trigger (= filing for D), something DID changed inside me. Many including my IC pointed out that I was almost forcing myself to focus on "good" memories while WH was focusing on "unpleasant" memories of us...., creating the huge difference in our perspectives/emotions. I was probably doing so, because I was in denial. I wanted to believe that our M could work out and WH is not such a bad partner after all. But I started to let go, probably around 12/05-1/06. I was having some tough time at work at that time, and I decided that I should focus on my work and DS4, instead of WH who had not returned any of my emotional investments. Without my job, I can't even properly take care of my son, who is my main focus in life.

So in a way, my job situation forced me to shift my focus. And I started to replace my emotional needs that used to be met by WH....., my family and friends began to fill in the gap. I was taking vacations with my friends, filling up our schedule with DS4 and actually having a lot of fun...., making plans w/o WH's inputs....

And I started to feel that I would be okay. Then when we went through MC last summer, I began to see different WH that I refused to see..... He has always been this way, but I did not want to believe that he was that bad...., again, WH is NOT a bad person, but he is extremely weak and lazy. Because of this, he lies. He does not stand up and fight. He always seeks for an easy way out. I knew this, but did not want to believe it so made all sorts of excuses for him in the past.

That is okay, as long as you are happy in general and want the relationship to work...., and if your partner is trying to make some changes. In my case, WH filed and I was forced to let go in the first place. I realized that I really did not have any more reasons to continue to make excuses for his behaviors. Even though WH had the reasons to pause our D process (financial reasons I believe), he could not make the efforts to stop lying or to become more responsible/reliable. I began to see many things my family and friends have been telling - that WH is so deep into himself that he cannot see any other people's needs. That's too much for him to handle...

By the way, when WH called last night for DS4...., we spoke briefly and he told me that he is (AGAIN) changing his jobs. He said he had a bad review (AGAIN), that he feels that he had enough (AGAIN), and that his boss is a bad communicator (blaming everyone but him....AGAIN). Seriously, ever since we got together, including those years we were just dating 16 years ago... he ALWAYS complained about his jobs and bosses....., it's ALWAYS his bosses that drove him crazy or that did not understand HIM..... This is how he views the world. No wonder our M did not work out, because he has done nothing wrong in his mind, even though he had many personal issues.....

So, at this point, I feel that amicable solution is the best outcome we can get. I have a feeling that even after our D, WH will continue to have financial troubles because of his unstable job situations, spending on fancy cars/motorcycles, or simply because he does not 'plan' things ahead of time - he has never been good at saving for the future. But at least he will not be able to blame me for that....

I have a meeting scheduled this afternoon with my lawyer. I am not happy about it. It's so depressing that I need to spend so much $$$ on something I did not even want in the first place....., and to talk about how to strategically break our marriage??? It's crazy. But I have to do what I have to do. I have to be strong too, and need to stand up and face the reality.

Hopefully after this meeting we don't really need to involve our attorneys as much and WH and I can come to an agreement..... Given WH's history, though, this might be a wishful thinking.

Thanks Pep, Eav, and SS for popping in!

Milk

Thanks milkshake. I can say all of those things about my H. He has quite a few narcissistic tendencies. He too is very lazy, very self centered etc. I hope this doesn't come out wrong or isn't taken wrong, but maybe him filing for D is a blessing in disguise for you. You sound like a very determined person who always sees the good in people. I can say the same thing about myself. You might have held on to the dysfunctional M for a long time had he not filed. That's exactly what I'm doing. I know for myself, my H professes his love for me, but meets almost none of my EN's and doesn't even try. Just this weekend I tried to talk to him about our R and he disgustingly rolled his eyes, big sigh, hit mute on the remote. I said what is wrong - he said I am just wondering how long this conv. is going to drag on for. He has really no desire to meet any of my needs, partly because he's so lazy.

So, for me, it would almost be a blessing if H would take the initive and file. Thanks for your input, didn't mean to hijack your thread. You seem to be doing a very good job throughout this D. You should be proud of the way that you've carried yourself.

I hope my sitch helped give you some insight, Callie. I understand how you feel about dealing with someone who has no motivation to do anything but his own things... Especially when you have kids, your plate is already full and on top of it you need to 'take care of' your big kid (WH) is just too much sometimes....., and I don't know about your H, but mine demanded sex all the time when I was tired and running around the house, while WH was watching TV or playing video games...., I really could not be nice to him. I was the bread winner, house keeper, nanny, and free sex partner. That is how I felt. I hope your H at least keeps his jobs......

My attorney just called and suggested to change time, so our meeting was rescheduled for next week. Which is good, I did not want to rush things, as I have several things I needed to finish today.

I am a bit depressed today, but on a bright side, I got bonus and raise I was not expecting. Since I just joined the last week of Sep, and our company's review year ends in Sep, I would not have qualified for raise nor bonus, but my boss and other senior management did not want me to feel that I was left out as they were pleased to have me on board, they decided to go against the policy and gave me something. My boss was even apologetic that the amount was not much, but I truly did not expect this so I was more than happy!

Milk

I have a confession to make - I have to admit that I am now depressed also b/c my best friend (guy) has ditched me.

We have been friends for like 10 years. We became best friends. We used to get together a lot (him, his wife, me and WH) during weekends and we took trips together as well.

Once DS4 was born, my friend K totally fell in love with him and became the greatest uncle to him.

Then ever since the whole thing happened in our marriage, K has always been there to help me and DS4. He and his wife were disguised by WH's behaviors and offered us a lot of emotional and physical help.

K and I did fight a lot, especially since WH left us. I was depressed, stressed out, but also we fought a lot probably because I felt that K was telling me things from the stand point where he had his wife and family AND me, while I did not have my husband....., things are very different and when K wanted more emotional investments from me, I did not feel it was right nor fair.

Anyway, to make the long story short....., we had another fight about a week ago and now we do not talk. K still sends me jokes or something over email, but nothing personal. He also used to call me everyday but he stopped doing so. I was okay first, but do miss speaking to him about many things - my work, DS4, friends, WH, etc. After not speaking to him in person for a week, I text messaged yesterday asking if he will not talk to me in person anymore.

He basically said he is 'tired' of continuing to make emotional investment in me and DS4.

I think I am depressed (1) simply because I have lost my best friend, but also (2) I feel that all men who are close to me end up feeling this way towards me...??? That I do not return emotions and end up tiring them out?

But it is different. With WH, if that is how he felt, that's my fault. But with K, since he was my friend, neither my husband nor boy friend, how much emotion could I return? There were many moments I knew what he wanted me to say or act, but I could not do so b/c I felt that was not appropriate. And the result is....., he is 'tired', just like WH became tired?

I don't know but I feel that maybe I should not be with men anymore....., I am not 'meant' to have a relationship?

Milk

We can examine this in more detail, but for now, can I say that I bet you will see this differently when you wake up Thursday morning than you do now. Give this time, believe in yourself.

My belief is that you are a daughter of God. You have in you the seeds of success. If you do the things you know are right, if you pray, if you continue to try.... the success you seek will come to you. You know this is the way God works in our lives.

Perhaps if we explore this later, some answers will come to you. For now, look to your goals, do what is needed RIGHT NOW, and have faith.

Must go -

SS

Thanks SS. I hope you are right and I will not be so depressed about this tomorrow.

I spoke to my girlfriend and we both came to the conclusion: life is short so we cannot keep worrying about manything - we will have to do the best we can and the rest will work out! One of my co-workers' father who was only 59 just passed away, unexpectedly. This really made me think again - you never know what is going to happen. I have to treasure what I have now, and I need to stop worrying so much, including my friendship issue with K.

Thanks for your encouraging and powerful comment, SS.

Milk

My belief is that a true friend won't just get tired of helping and quit.......... unless..........

Unless - they see no hope of change. Then they would remain your friend, but perhaps be more distant. The type of contact might change, but not be cut off altogether.

Unless - Something changes inside of them. But with K, since he was my friend, neither my husband nor boy friend, how much emotion could I return? There were many moments I knew what he wanted me to say or act, but I could not do so b/c I felt that was not appropriate. And the result is....., he is 'tired', just like WH became tired?

What you said seems to be correct. What does that tell you about what he is doing?
He may not be doing it on purpose, and he may not realize it, but you knew. Don't feel bad about HIS BAD REACTION TO YOU DOING WHAT YOU OUGHT TO DO.

I don't know but I feel that maybe I should not be with men anymore....., I am not 'meant' to have a relationship?

So, how should I treat this statement.

Seriously, and feel bad for you?

No, all of us have moments of self doubt. I think you will come through that in good shape, after you think this through.

With Humor?
Well, we really could laugh about it, because I think you do know better.
You do know better......... right? (grin)

I should tease you more. They say that smiles are good for your face.

Here's a poem for you. I have posted it for others, but I don't think I have posted it for you before. If I have, you can tease me.

If...

Rudyard Kipling


If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!


Now, this is written in the masculine, but it applies to you too, and you can see it in many of the lines. Please trust yourself when others doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too. Examine what happened, and understand it, and don't think the problem is all of your doing.

I have to leave again, but I think (based on your last post) that you already got it.

I hope you sleep well. You really ought to, and if you know who you are, and where you are going, you will.

SS

SS, thank you for this. I read it several times. The sentence "trust yourself when other doubt you, but make allowance for their dounbting too" is so powerful. How do you do that?

For example, both WH and K told me several same things about me - they both told me that "I do not like men". If two men who have been very close to me feel this way, I must act in a way that makes them feel this way. So I DO make allowance for other people's opinions, but it is hard to trust myself... Seriously, SS, you are a man too - what do you think about their assessment of me? What are they saying? Do they feel that deep inside I do not trust men or I do not completely open up for them? Because I never verbally said that I dislike men. If that's the case, why did I suffer so much from my failing marriage? Or losing my best friend who is also a guy?

Milk

Milk,
I don't have time right now, to do a good job of this, but I will do the short version.

Of course you didn't trust your H.
I bet you did at first, but in the end, you would have been foolish to trust him. I am sure it came out in your conversation, and all your interaction with him. I bet he could feel it.

I think it's his fault - he was not trustworthy. What else can you say about that?

I don't know about K, but I have some thoughts I can run past you when I get more time.

SS

Thanks SS. I was gone and just read your comment. It's weird, because I wanted to trust H and DID trust him on most of the things but then I was afraid to get hurt so I didn't trust him on certain things, which now I look back are BIG, such as 'commitment', 'responsibility', and 'honesty'.

I'll be meeting with my attorney this Friday. I'll keep praying that I will be strong enough to deal with it.

I haven't spoken (exchanged emails) with K for the past 4 days. He sent me a link to a song which he said reminds him of us. I haven't listened to it, and haven't reponded to him on this. I think at least we are not mad at each other, so that's good.

Life is strange. My life is becoming more and more something I could never imagine it would become.

Milk

It's really hard to KNOW what is going on with the trust issue.

Do you really have some kind of a problem?
Is this something you should think more about?
Do you need to change the way you interact with men?

I can't answer these questions. I don't have enough data to do that. In addition to lack of data......... the information I do have comes from you, and we know that most of the time we skew the data as we pass it on to others.

I don't mean that in a bad way. If you really do have a problem, you probably wouldn't be able to examine it very well. Like someone who is color blind can't get a good feel for the full color spectrum.

There are valid reasons why you didn't trust your H. He proved that he wasn't trustworthy. You would be foolish to trust someone who had already shown they couldn't be trusted. As I said, early on, I bet you did trust him. It was only after he began to lie, and cheat that you pulled back.

I have said more than once that if I could watch people interact for an hour or two in a social setting it would be much easier to know some of the things you are wondering about. It nearly always comes out in conversation.

As far as the you not liking men..........

If you didn't like men you wouldn't be so hurt by what happened. I think that part is plain.

I am wondering what K means. We can be friends with someone, and discuss parts of our lives and still not cross the line to emotional intimacy. If you have had concerns about K getting too close to that line, then it may very well be he is asking for trust that he doesn't need, and shouldn't have. I can't know though, all I can do is speculate.

It's hard for you to step back and look at this in a detached manner. Because of that, it's hard for you to understand exactly what is going on. However, no one else has been in on all the interaction, and conversation you have had with both men. I have found that having quiet time to meditate and think about things helps me figure these things out (for me.) Prayer helps too, it does make a difference.

If I had to make a judgement, I would say this:

Your H is exactly right about you not trusting him. That is his fault, because he continues to be untrustworthy. He is still making promises that he backs out of nearly as fast as he makes them. "This time I'll do what I say - this time is different." I think if it were me, I would tell my laywer that it's time to stop being nice, and see how little we can give H. My personal opinion is that people who do what he has been doing will only learn by the school of hard knocks. I think he needs an education. I would be tempted to answer his requests for more with something like this: "H, I tried to be nice, but you keep changing your requests. I am through being nice, all agreements are off, and I'll see you in court."
If he does submit an offer, have him submit it to your lawyer, tell him to leave you alone.
Please don't feel guilty for not trusting H. He took that possibility a way from you a long time ago.

It sounds like K is expecting to much. Like he EXPECTS more than he ought to from you. It's impossible for me to know for sure, with the little information I have, but that's what it feels from what you have said.

Have you seen this post?
Takola on trust

Perhaps it will help you understand a little bit better why you DON't trust H, and why you shouldn't trust him.

With male/female friendships, it is dangerous to assume things. I have some female friends. As a rule, I don't talk on the phone to them. Any email exchanges also go to my W. I never meet them in person unless my W can be there also. If K is not protecting his W, then you are right to be concerned. Often there are reasons we don't trust, and we feel them, but it is difficult to define or identify them. Don't accept others blanket assessment that you don't trust, without looking at the big picture. Is K sometimes pushing for too much? You could be creating distance to protect yourself, but not realize you are doing it.

I would guess that might be what is going on.


I know you are not looking forward to what will take place the next little while. Think about it a little bit. Knowing how things have been recently, it should bring you some measure of peace.

Major direction change -
You never did say much about your parents visit. I would be interested in hearing how it went.
What do they like to do when they visit?
Does DS speak two languages?

With all that has been going on, did you get to spend much time with them?

Now, the bottom line -
Have some faith in yourself. Perhaps you have some faults?
I suspect that means you are a member of the human race.
You'll figure this out in time, and you will be fine in the long run. Welcome to real life, and may you find joy in the journey. (grin)

SS

SS, thanks for your constructive & wonderfully put reply.

Do I have some faults? Oh my God, a ton!!! I look at some people and wonder how they manage to remain so calm and 'accept' reality and keep moving forward. Like one of my co-workers whose father passed away unexpectedly last week. He was only 59 and in good health. My friend just flew back (he is from Eastern Europe) and has been working normally. I wouldn't have been able to do that. If anything ever happen to my family, I would be devastated. I won't be functioning. One of my GF who has gone through divorce and now is happily remarried with two kids, once told me that when she was going through D (although she filed), it was very difficult, but she felt that she can't screw up her career and totally focused on her job during the hard time. I couldn't do so. Which now looking back, however, I don't regret so much because thank to that, I had an opportunity to look elsewhere and ended up landing on this job I have now, which is just wonderful. I love working with people I work with now and I enjoy my job about 20 times more now. And the pay is so much better too.

Anyway, the point is, when I lived with WH, I always wonder why he was so weak....., but now I feel I'm just as weak (although I would never do drugs or get myself into any type of addictions), and I do envy other 'strong' people. I feel I am still lacking the nice grip on my life, even though I do enjoy living each day.

K has been my best friend. We have supported each other, but fairly speaking, he has supported me much more than I have. When I needed something, he always stepped in to help. One time he even cried out loud with me on the phone because I was hurting so badly from my failing marriage. He was crying because he felt my great pain and yet he could not do anything about it. I was greatly moved by that. To hear a big man cry, because I was crying so much – I really appreciated that he totally understood my pain and shared the moments with me. Sure, he would not have been this supportive and loving to me, had I been a guy. I am not going to lie that he was just being nice, as if he would have done this to anyone. But strangely his wife has always known that his husband was attracted to me, but she always had great understanding. That’s something I don’t think I could ever do. K said this is probably because his wife also truly loves me and DS4 as her extended family (she is quite older than me, and almost treats me like her younger sister or big daughter). I don’t think that’s the case, though. I think his wife is just a very smart woman who loves her husband to death, and knows how to give trust and freedom to a man. Again, when I see person like this, I always wonder how she does this.

Thanks for asking about my parents. It was great having them around and both DS4 and I had a great time. Unfortunately it was unbelievably cold while they were here so we couldn't really do much in terms of activities, but we still went out to dinner, etc., and had fun.

I try to speak to my son in Japanese at home, so he seems to understand most of what I am saying, although he replies in English. Since he is learning some Spanish at school, sometimes he uses Spanish thinking it's Japanese, which is pretty funny. I've been teaching him Japanese letters too, and he can read some of them now. It's a lot of fun to see this little child who was only a baby a few years ago learning so much every day! This morning he asked me if I know what "X-tray" is (and he explained to me that it is a picture of bones), and also asked about 'FBI'. He now understands the concept of 'laws' too, and sometimes picks up something from the radio and asks me "Mama, did he break the law? So he is going to jail?" Having my boy was the most rewarding experience I ever had, and for that, I don't have regret that I married WH. Even without DS4, WH and I had many fun memories, so in the end I don't think I necessarily had a bad deal. I wish DS4 could grow up like I did, having the original parents and a stable family, but I guess I can't have everything on my wish list....

How have you been, SS? What are your goals in life you are trying to achieve?

Milk