Since I could not change my old thread's title, which is no longer suitable, I'm starting a new thread. Here is the link to my old thread, for those who may not be familiar with my sitch:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

I posted the following to my old thread...

WH came by to pick up DS4 on Sat morning, and I asked him if he heard anything back from his lawyer. He said no, but then said "but nothing is going to change". He was very firm when he said that, which touched my heart. Of course I did not show that though.

Well this morning WH forwarded emails between him and his lawyer - he, as PROMISED, sent an email to his lawyer after our talk last Friday. This is what he said in his email:

Needless to say this whole period has been very taxing on us, DS4, Milk and myself....
We want to reach an agreement surrounding our assets split and I a have agreed and will not reneg (even if it costs me 20-30K - I don't care ....not worth the emotional loss for DS4, Milk and myself) and end it in an amicable manner.....ending this amicably has value......

We have agreed to the following

1) We have joint custody of DS4 but Milk has primary custody.
2) We split the holidays in half
3) Milk will have title to law mandated xx% of my income (not more)
4) Milk will give me $$
5) I keep the vehicle #3
6) Milk keeps the house, all assets in it (except for few items we have agreed upon), remaining vehicles (Vehicle #1 and Vehicle #2). DS4 likes the house and he belongs in it.

I am comfortable with this settlement and am not interested in settling for anything more...

I realize as my lawyer you are going to talk me out of it ....we are at a point where friendship can be maintained. Even if she sits on most of the assets I am o.k. with that.....

Let’s proceed from here

H
In reply, his lawyer basically agreed with him saying that in addition to considering the real cost of assets, the emotional cost of the dissolution and future relationships must be considered as well, and he told him that if he is happy with the allocation he stated in his email, then his lawyer will NOT attempt to ‘talk him out of it’.

H’s email made me cry. Especially where he said "DS4 likes the house and he 'belongs' in it", and "we are at a point where friendship can be maintained"......, they really touched my heart. That is how he has always been, before the whole thing happened. It seems as if the old sweet H has come back. Of course, I am not trying to set myself up for another hurt by raising my hope for US or anything......, I know this is ENDING, and I am not trying to fool myself...., but it's just very touching to see how he has said it to his lawyer and standing firm to be a man, and trying to honor what he promised. This is basically what he promised in the first place when he moved out.

Again, this is good and bad. It's good, obviously, that he 'cares' that we remain 'friends', and most importantly, he cares about DS4's wellbeing. But it certainly brings back so many 'good' and 'sweet' memories we had together by being a good guy again....

I'm a bit emotional today.......but, I AM truly graceful that we have reached a point where we do NOT hate each other anymore....

Milk

Finally some good news!!! That sounds very promising.

Thanks Believer.

(((Milk))) Kinda bittersweet isn't it? When they are mean, it hurts and when they show some decency, it makes us miss them again.

(((Milkshake}}}

I'm very pleased for you. Being on good terms with WH is great news for your DS.

Alph.

Thanks Jean and Alph. Yes, it's great if WH and I can get along well - even after D. If that will minimize DS4's pains, I will do it.

It's so typical of WH......

Apparently WH got a car accident last week...., and then two days later he contacted me and proposed that we settle between us amicably.

Now, one of my friends' view is that WH may have found someone, and because of that he is not angry anymore and also wants to settle ASAP so that he can move on with his life. This DOES make sense.

But I can't help but to find a similar pattern year after year......

First, the beginning of 2004, WH said that he wanted a divorce. Then in June 2004 he was arrested for SA. He wanted to reconcile and started to attend the 12-step recovery program. But he ended it after 3 months, and also that time he 'fell' for a young girl he met at church and decided that I was the source of his unhappiness and he needs to get rid of me.

Beginning of 2005, he was given a pink slip at work. He stopped mentioning about divorce. Then he got a job...., a few days after, he decided to leave us and moved out in May.

The first night, he got scared and called me at night to tell me that he 'loves' me and wants to get back together. But then the very next day he said he was just 'freaking out'...., and whatever he said did not 'mean' anything. He just 'used' me emotionally, that's what he told me.

So he filed in Sep 2005. In Dec 2005, I tried to settle by offering him a settlement proposal, but his lawyer told him to go for more so the plan failed. In March 2006, he was arrested for DUI, and he contacted me asking for reconciliation. Also the fact that he had to renew his apartment, the tax season was coming up, etc., played a big role. He did not have money.

We tried MC but in the end WH (again) decided to divorce. Now here we are, we were about to have a 4-way conference...., WH got an accident. And AGAIN, it's the tax season PLUS his renewal of apartment lease. He will need MONEY.....

Two days after his accident, he contacted me and wanted to settle. He DID mention "I just want to settle, and I just want to get some money so that I can pay off my debt and also my taxes".

OK, this time he did NOT ask for reconciliation, but it's almost comical that every year something happens to WH, which seems to affect his behavior one way or another.

Again, it's totally possible that WH is simply tired of fighting anymore and just wants to settle. He may have a GF now, that's possible too. But somehow I wonder......., that this might be another one of those 'event triggered' actions.....
He is a very interesting person, to say the least……

Milk

WH asked if he could have DS4 over on Thursday last week, but since it was a last minute request, I could not change my plan. WH said he had already taken a day off Friday (initially for our 4-way conference, but since it was cancelled, WH had a free day) and wanted to spend time with DS4. So I proposed "why don't you pick him up on Friday morning, so that you can still spend the whole day with him..., and if you would like, you can keep him overnight, although I need him back by 11am, since my parents are flying in on Sat and DS4 and I need to leave shortly after that time to pick them up at the airport".

Initially WH said no, that won't work out for him, because he already had a plan for Friday night. I didn't ask him what it was, but he volunteered to offer more detailed information...., he said he was going to attend this club in the city to play cards. He said "this is a good way to make friends...", which sounded pretty sad. WH does not even have many friends...., the thought depressed me too.

So we decided that we'd postpone this and WH would NOT pick up DS4.

Then on Thursday evening when I was driving home (with DS4 in the car), my cell rang. It was WH. He said he 'changed his mind' and will NOT go to this club, and rather wants to spend time with DS4, because he 'really misses DS4'.

I could tell that WH is feeling very lonely. It appears almost he NEEDS DS4 or someone, to be with him so that he can get through his lonely and sad days....

WH's sisters and brother would probably say "well, this is his own doing"...., which is true, but still I felt sad for him.

Anyway, I let him have DS4 Friday and Friday night, and WH seemed happy. On Sat morning when he dropped DS4 off at my place, he asked if also my brother is coming, so I said no, and then he said "please say hi to your parents".

Aside from WH, I had a nice fun weekend with DS4 and my parents, despite the bitter cold weather.

Milk

Wow, WH continues to show some decency - today is WH's usual day to pick up DS4 from his daycare for dinner. I had a few things I needed to tell WH so called this morning. He said "your parents probably want to spend time with DS4, since they don't get to see him too often, so it's okay, I don't have to pick up DS4 tonight."

I then told him about another business trip to Europe in March and that WH would need to take care of DS4 during that time, and he sounded excited about it. And he even suggested where to go (I'll be going to London and Amsterdam), and the reason he mentioned is because this spot is where I have always wanted to visit since I was a little girl. Obviously WH remembers that.

I'm glad we are talking like in old days.

Milk

Milk,

You are obviously dealing with a VERY immature man. When in trouble he needs his mommy.

Your analysis is right on the money and so clear headed.... are you sure you are a BS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />????????

Ha ha, thanks for your reply Cymanca. After my analysis I told my friend, who initially believed that the sudden change in WH's behavior was due to his finding a new 'love', about my theory and he agreed with me. He said that makes sense. Who knows who is right, but there is a pattern each year.

On a completely separate subject..........I have a question. I don't know what I should do. Here is the situation. I mentioned this guy I met at the end of last year...., and although we are curbing ourselves b/c I am not divorced yet, I have to admit that there is strong attraction between us. Well, it appears that he has already told about me and even my son to his family, and it seems everyone at his work knows about me now... He (let me call him M) does talk about future here and then, although he sort of hides it well so that it does not sound too obvious.

So, given the strong emotions between us and M's signaling of us possibly staying together in the future, I feel strange to continue to 'pretend' that I do not notice how the other guy J feels towards me. J is my friend - we met at business school and we've been friends for 10 years now. His divorce became final in December last year. Even before his D (he was in this process for 3 years), he was sending me flowers for my birthday and Valentine's day, so I knew he liked me, but since he never actually said that he wanted to date me, and I have also told him many times that I wanted to stay married to WH (and I was also encouraging him to stay with his x-wife), I did not really need to deal with this issue. But now there is M, and I'm sure J is planning on sending something to me on Valentine's Day, I do not feel right. I should say something to J that I have met someone (=M). But when J has never asked me out officially, isn't that strange for me to just tell him out of the blue that I have met someone? J has just gone through divorce and he is broken heart - I do not want to make it hard for him. What is the best way? How should I approach this?

Thanks for your advice.....

Milk

Just my .02 cents.

If J is a friend, then it would not be strange for you to tell him about M. You've talked to him about WH. So now there is a new man in your life.

I can understand you not wanting to hurt J after what he has been through. But its going to hurt him a lot more if he finds out from someone other than you.

Hope this helps you.

Thanks GWTF.

I sent J an email and 'shared' this information. I hope he took it well...

Milk

Hey Milk~
Haven't posted much but I always keep up with your "sitch".
Glad to hear that you had a nice visit with your family, and
that things are more pleasant with your WH lately- I know
that has to be a big relief and far less stressful, even
though the D is not what you want.

Glad that you have some good friends like "J" and "M" both,
but wanted to urge you to be really careful about getting
involved in any kind of a new romantic relationship -yet !
Just had a discussion about this with my IC last week (see
details about reason below) and since then have seen that
most here as well as almost everything I read about the
"recovery" from divorce all urge waiting at least a year
to get involved with someone new. My IC explained that it
takes at least that long (sometimes more) to go through the
stages of grieving that are necessary for healing, and also
said she's counseled numerous people who jumped right from
divorce into a new relationship only to realize they brought
all the hurt, doubt, distrust and issues of the M along with
them, and ended up killing the chance of a healthy, new
relationship. Also read in another source that it is not
uncommon for a newly D person to find themselves quickly
attracted to a new person because of loneliness, boredom,
need for attention, SF, etc.. rather than for that real
person and it ends up being a "rebound" situation that
ultimately hurts both people.
I know you are very level-headed and probably being really
careful, but sounds like "M" is really anxious and wanting
to move quickly (esp if you aren't even more than friends
and he is already telling family and friends about you and
your son) so I just sure don't want you or DS4 to get hurt.

Reason my IC had brought up anything about new relationships
was that I'd mentioned to her I was having an occasional
email back and forth with an old BF who had looked me up via
"Classmates.com" several months ago. It has been fun to
"catch up" and be reacquainted with him, but I very quickly
assured her it's nothing more than that and that I have NO
intention of any kind of new relationship for a LONG, LONG
time, if ever !! (think she kind of "jumped the gun" in
giving me all the cautions).

Otherwise, just working, have started therapy for my ankle,
and am trying to hang in there. Today's my anniversary,
(9 years) so it's kind of a tough day.
Slammed

Dear Slammed,

Thank you for posting and updating me with your latest. Also thank you for the reminder - it's so true, that either you get attracted to someone b/c you are lonely, or you may be attracted to someone for healthy reasons but you tend to bring all the hurt, distrust, etc. into a new relationship and end up ruining it.... I can see that easily, and I do have to remind myself not to think "I'm an exception", because I am NOT!

I'm glad you seem to have a very good IC. How often do you see her? I used to do the counseling over the phone (so that I do not have to sacrifice my time with DS4 at night), but in between different health insurance, it turned out that I exceeded the number of sessions I was allowed to have a year and ended up costing me $300 or so.....

I'm sorry you are having a hard day today. Any anniversary is hard. Even listening to certain songs is hard. Stay strong, Slammed...., hope you will be able to feel some peace despite all of this...

{{{Slammed}}}

Thanks again for visiting - it's always nice to hear from you.

Milk

OF COURSE this happened. I am such a fool. Over and over again, I want to trust WH......, even when we were 'happily' married, there were so many incidents that suggested that WH could not be trusted (not because he is an evil person, but he is just so easily influenced by others and also he does not have strong will). Why do I do this? I know why. Because deep down inside, I WANT to believe so badly that WH is a wonderful person. He cannot be such a broken person......

So this is what happened. Yesterday I took a day off but WH sent me an email with his lawyer's email attached. OF COURSE his lawyer is telling him how UNFAIR this settlement will be for him and that he should fight for more, etc., etc. WH clearly told him that he is happy with this settlement. Now OF COURSE he changed his mind and is asking me what I can do for him (meaning that I should give him more $$$ or reduce the child support, which he can't because he is NOT even paying the state mandated amount!!!).

Did he forget all of his promises? Did he forget that I am still paying for his fancy car as we speak?

I know it's just money, and at the end of the day, I will NOT get too stressed out about this. I won't.

BUT what depresses me is that AGAIN, WH proved that he cannot keep his words. It's really sad. Am I being too Asian??? I know in the Asian world, we believe in 'trust', 'honor', 'dignity', etc., and we may put too much stress on that. WH has said many times during the course of our marriage that I am ‘too’ Asian from that regards, because I hate lies and always made a big deal out of it. He did not think lying is such a big deal. Or canceling our plans to visit our friends a few hours before just because he 'does not feel like it' is not a big deal and I should not have been upset......

Is it in his DNA? Would my 4-year-old start behaving like this once he grows up? That he would lie to get what he wants when he wants it, without feeling guilty at all? That honoring your own promises is such an outdated, old-fashioned thing to do? And if you screw up, you can always come back and expect the person you have hurt so much will help you out? Without feeling any type of shame??? And if the person refuses to help you out, you have the right to get mad???

I'm hurt (again) that having the sincere (or so I thought) conversation truly does not mean anything to him......

Poor WH, he won't be able to have any type of solid relationships with anyone (with his own family, friends, co-workers, future GF) if he continues to behave this way and does not see any problems in doing so.

Or is he doing this, just because this is regarding D and also about money? I'm not sure, but if I try to put myself in his shoe....., I think I would still feel very ashamed if I keep changing my promises, even if it is about ugly thing such as divorce and finances. There still would be some emotions dealing with these issues for me, I believe...

Am I over-reacting here?

Milk

Agggh, I haven't replied to WH's emails, as I do NOT feel like doing so, frankly, after being lied to and being disappointed by him for about 1000 times. Also, I am now learning new tactics - I do not want to panic or REACT right away anymore. Most of the things can wait. And there is no need for me to get upset over something that is in a way, should have been expected and beyond my control anyway.

So I just went to lunch and successfully 'forgot' about it. Came back to my office, and there was another email from WH.

"I'm glad my lawyer was able to explain clearly where we stand so we could make reasonable and fair settlement..."

Excuse me? He knew exactly what we had on the table. He was willing to settle and repeatedly told his lawyer that he would be 'happy' with this and is not willing to 'renegotiate'. He said "I don't care if Milk ended up getting most of the assets, etc....."

Now he does not want to pay the state mandated 20% child support. Or he wants to get more in the settlement.

We have gone through this already. Obviously his lawyer by now figured that his client is very easy to manipulate and to convince. WH is like a puppet.

I think in the end I will let my lawyer handle this. I am tired of repeating the same things over and over EVERY freaking year.....

So much for having a 'soft spot' for WH's action a couple of weeks ago. Guess he will never change. My friends were right... But in a strange way, I am a bit relieved. This is WH. This is the reality. And I need to deal with it. I cannot keep thinking that WH is a wonderful sweet person I thought he was. The reality has been telling me that he is NOT that kind of person. And this DOES make it easier for me to completely ‘detach’ from him. WH keeps destroying whatever emotions I may have left inside me….., soon I am sure I would feel very HAPPY to be divorced. What a change. But WH has shown true him in front of me, and I do not have an ounce of respect for him left these days. Again, I will not need to ‘look back’ anymore. We are doing the right thing. I am better off this way……

Milk

Last night my parents and I were having dinner together....., and my dad, probably for the first time, expressed how he was thinking all this time about WH. He felt that it's perfectly possible that I was too strong in our relationship, making WH feel inadequate, etc., or he might not have felt that I loved him enough due to the cultural difference, etc., but that's something WH knew when he met and dated me over 16 years ago. We were together for a very long time...., it is not something that just happened or changed yesterday. What my dad thinks is that the fact we had our first child 4 years ago....., that changed our relationship. WH could no longer do his 'own' things, as I was complaining about his behavior. He was always like that, but until we had DS4 together, I could have let him do whatever he wanted and I had freedom too. But all of the sudden WH had to take care of his son and to start behaving in a responsible way, which he failed and was nagged at by me (and also by our mutual friends or my parents....., which now I realize was not necessarily a good thing). Now, my parents do NOT know about WH's arrests, drug use, or sexual addiction. I could not tell them. They would freak out. But even without such information, my dad's analysis might be pretty accurate...., he thinks WH could NOT be responsible enough to be a father, and he CHOSE to run away from his responsibilities. So my dad was actually VERY mad at him 3-4 years ago when he felt that I was doing everything (working full time and taking care of our son while WH was playing computer games all the time).

But what surprised me was more of how he said it.....; I felt a great amount of love from my father.

It IS sad that our M failed because we were too busy or we had our first child......, because DS4 was the best thing that ever happened to me in my life......, but at the same time, I felt very thankful to have parents who love and care about me so much. Their love for me is perfectly unconditional. And I am grateful for that. I hope I will be that kind of mother for DS4 and he would feel safe around me.

Milk

I was reading this article on WSJ this morning...., about how London parents are applying for prestigious elementary schools when their kids were just born! Wow. I thought my country is bad enough (parents over there tend to be very competitive to get their kids enrolled in good school), but it's happening everywhere then.... So much pressure.

I'm not that bad, but do believe that good education is the best asset you can pass on to your kids. WH did not have much input on this and DS4's extra curriculum classes and school selection has been my domain. I ran into an old friend of mine this morning on the train - we used to work together. He also has a 4-year-old boy. He and his wife have been together since college (and they are still happily married), and it seems they are on the same page in terms of how to raise kids and what type of education they wish for their children. Guess these things also contribute to a stable relationship...., that both parents are concerned about their children's upbringing..., instead of one parent doing everything for them and the other one does not really care or does not have any strong belief.

We've been hit by a pretty nasty snow storm and I am so glad my mom is here this week. Yesterday I checked with DS4's school and a girl said they were open so I drove all the way to his school, taking 4 times longer as everyone was just crawling on the street, to only find out that the school was closing in a few hours! Since I work in the city and cannot just come back when I receive calls from his school, I just made a U-turn and took DS4 back home so that my mom could watch him. This morning the news said that the most of schools were open, but it started to snow again and I ended up leaving DS4 at home again with my mom.

Otherwise I would have to take 2 days off just for the snow this week. I was shoveling last night and this morning again....., my back began to hurt a bit.

Happy Valentine's Day everyone!
Milk

Since WH backed off again from his promise and original plan, I haven't really mentioned it - he emailed me this morning basically asking the same things (1) timely resolution (he needs money) and (2) at the renegotiated level (= more money for him, as he needs money).

I replied to him saying that I do also want amicable resolution and I have always wanted that. But WH repeatedly (with the assistence of his nasty lawyer) backed off, changed his mind, broke his promises, etc., so emotional costs to me (feeling betrayed again) are too much for me. I explained in a calm tone but told him things I have wanted to say...

He replied right away thanking me for the email, but asked me to see things 'from his point of view' as well.....

Then he emailed me another one saying "one more thing...., if we agree, this time I will not back down and that is a promise".

I apreciate this, but wish he realized that how many times he had 'promised' me during the eitire time we were together....., he promised with my dad when he came to ask for my hand that he would learn my language so that he could communicate with my mom....., he did not even try to learn it...., didn't even buy tapes, books, nor sign up for classes. He said "now you are mine, I don't have to do it".

He promised that we could go back to my country if I missed home so much because he loved me very much...., the minute I entered this country, he told me "I cannot go and live there. It's too stressful"......

He did not have money to buy me an engagement ring and I did not want him to feel bad so I bought it myself (he had already picked it at the store) and he 'promised' that he would pay me back....., not even a penny came back.

He was smoking pot behind my back and I begged him to stop and he 'promised' like million times but he never did.... until he was arrested.

The list goes on......

Still I thought he was a sweet person and wanted to believe that he DOES want to honor his words......

He broke my heart so many times, and now he is (again) sweet talking with me b/c he wants me to believe that he would honor his promise.....

The logical side of my brain is warning me but the stupid and naive me is wanting to believe him again....sigh.

OK, back to work. Have a nice day everyone.

Milk

milk, i'm sorry for what you're going thru. i do follow your thread from time to time because i feel that this may be the route that WH and i may go.

i think in the end you would be better off without your WH. he has still a lot of growing up to do if he ever does.

i wish for the best for you and even for your DS. God bless you

I hate that you are in this phase, negotiating the divorce. That was a very painful time for me, to have to bargain your way to a divorce that you don't want.

((Milk))

Thank you Romans and Jean. There is nothing I can do about this but your kind words do help me a lot.

Milk

Wow, milkshake. I just spent a few hours reading through your threads and I cannot believe our similarities of our fears in leaving our M's. I am feeling most exactly the same things as you. For more info on my messed up M, here is my thread. If you read the last few pages you'll get an idea of what has been happening as of late. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3165163

I am still M, H still lives here. He has some mental issues as well. He is very childish and is the most lazy and selfish person that I know. But, just as your H, he has his good moments - kind moments that draw me back in. I have 6 yo twins. I feel immense guilt for leaving, guilt because of my kids mainly. Also guilt for my H alone.

Just a few questions for you if you don't mind. I can tell that you still have feelings for your H, that you wanted it to work but realized that there is only so much that you can do. You realized that he would not change unless he wanted to and you would have many years of more of the same. What was it in you that clicked. That made you take the next step to follow through with D? Where are you finding your strength and assurity that you are doing the right thing? I sense that in your heart you know that this is something that you need to do, but you don't want to do it. I feel exactly the same. Can you elaborate on what it was that made your thinking shift from holding on to letting go?

Thanks so much for your help and insight. I always thought that if/when a D came that I would be sure and secure in that decision. I would not have feeling for H any longer. I do still have feelings for H, but KNOW that I cannot go on with things the way that they are and have been. It is a battle within me right now. I"m not even sure how to define the feelings that I have for H. I don't necessarily WANT to be with him, ENJOY being with him. I think the feelings are a combo of familiarity, guilt, care. I don't feel a great love for him. Anyway, thanks for your input. I am really amazed at our similar situations. The difference in you is that you did something about it after 6+ months. I"ve been in limbo now for about 2 years. Thanks!

[color:"red"] suggested response: [/color]

[color:"blue"] "Today's promises, and future promises ... must be in writing and notarized. Thank you." [/color]

pep

i love that advice!

after he left, my H said to me...even though i cheated on you, I'd NEVER take advantage of you financially. This is completely different. You know you can trust me.

i think all rational thinking leaves during an A!

(I guess that explains why they are willing to crawl in the dirt and live with filth and think they are "sooooo happy")

Milk, what do you feel you ought to do? I want to hear your side of this, and your solution(s).

SS

Hi all!

My parents were here for the past two weeks and also I have been quite busy at work preparing for my presentation this morning (it went well, by the way) so I haven't had a chance to get back to you all -

Callie, I don't mind telling you anything that may help you out - that's why we are all here. I have been helped and supported by so many people and if I can return even if only a fraction of it, I'll gladly do so!

First, though, our situations seem similar, but the difference is that my WH filed. I had been frustrated and was talking to my friends about our M and how I felt that I almost wanted D in the past....., yes, I was in that situation too, but in the end WH filed. I think even though I was definitely NOT happy about our M and WH, I could not pull the trigger. Also, a big part of me was always reminding me of a nice & gentle H I remembered which made me believe that our love is genuine and we were meant for each other. Because that is what I wanted to believe, I guess. Also the fact we have a child together of course made it hard for me to actually do anything about our M. I thought even though I had many complaints about WH, our M would carry on....., that is how I felt and I was naive.

Well, however, several months after he pulled the trigger (= filing for D), something DID changed inside me. Many including my IC pointed out that I was almost forcing myself to focus on "good" memories while WH was focusing on "unpleasant" memories of us...., creating the huge difference in our perspectives/emotions. I was probably doing so, because I was in denial. I wanted to believe that our M could work out and WH is not such a bad partner after all. But I started to let go, probably around 12/05-1/06. I was having some tough time at work at that time, and I decided that I should focus on my work and DS4, instead of WH who had not returned any of my emotional investments. Without my job, I can't even properly take care of my son, who is my main focus in life.

So in a way, my job situation forced me to shift my focus. And I started to replace my emotional needs that used to be met by WH....., my family and friends began to fill in the gap. I was taking vacations with my friends, filling up our schedule with DS4 and actually having a lot of fun...., making plans w/o WH's inputs....

And I started to feel that I would be okay. Then when we went through MC last summer, I began to see different WH that I refused to see..... He has always been this way, but I did not want to believe that he was that bad...., again, WH is NOT a bad person, but he is extremely weak and lazy. Because of this, he lies. He does not stand up and fight. He always seeks for an easy way out. I knew this, but did not want to believe it so made all sorts of excuses for him in the past.

That is okay, as long as you are happy in general and want the relationship to work...., and if your partner is trying to make some changes. In my case, WH filed and I was forced to let go in the first place. I realized that I really did not have any more reasons to continue to make excuses for his behaviors. Even though WH had the reasons to pause our D process (financial reasons I believe), he could not make the efforts to stop lying or to become more responsible/reliable. I began to see many things my family and friends have been telling - that WH is so deep into himself that he cannot see any other people's needs. That's too much for him to handle...

By the way, when WH called last night for DS4...., we spoke briefly and he told me that he is (AGAIN) changing his jobs. He said he had a bad review (AGAIN), that he feels that he had enough (AGAIN), and that his boss is a bad communicator (blaming everyone but him....AGAIN). Seriously, ever since we got together, including those years we were just dating 16 years ago... he ALWAYS complained about his jobs and bosses....., it's ALWAYS his bosses that drove him crazy or that did not understand HIM..... This is how he views the world. No wonder our M did not work out, because he has done nothing wrong in his mind, even though he had many personal issues.....

So, at this point, I feel that amicable solution is the best outcome we can get. I have a feeling that even after our D, WH will continue to have financial troubles because of his unstable job situations, spending on fancy cars/motorcycles, or simply because he does not 'plan' things ahead of time - he has never been good at saving for the future. But at least he will not be able to blame me for that....

I have a meeting scheduled this afternoon with my lawyer. I am not happy about it. It's so depressing that I need to spend so much $$$ on something I did not even want in the first place....., and to talk about how to strategically break our marriage??? It's crazy. But I have to do what I have to do. I have to be strong too, and need to stand up and face the reality.

Hopefully after this meeting we don't really need to involve our attorneys as much and WH and I can come to an agreement..... Given WH's history, though, this might be a wishful thinking.

Thanks Pep, Eav, and SS for popping in!

Milk

Thanks milkshake. I can say all of those things about my H. He has quite a few narcissistic tendencies. He too is very lazy, very self centered etc. I hope this doesn't come out wrong or isn't taken wrong, but maybe him filing for D is a blessing in disguise for you. You sound like a very determined person who always sees the good in people. I can say the same thing about myself. You might have held on to the dysfunctional M for a long time had he not filed. That's exactly what I'm doing. I know for myself, my H professes his love for me, but meets almost none of my EN's and doesn't even try. Just this weekend I tried to talk to him about our R and he disgustingly rolled his eyes, big sigh, hit mute on the remote. I said what is wrong - he said I am just wondering how long this conv. is going to drag on for. He has really no desire to meet any of my needs, partly because he's so lazy.

So, for me, it would almost be a blessing if H would take the initive and file. Thanks for your input, didn't mean to hijack your thread. You seem to be doing a very good job throughout this D. You should be proud of the way that you've carried yourself.

I hope my sitch helped give you some insight, Callie. I understand how you feel about dealing with someone who has no motivation to do anything but his own things... Especially when you have kids, your plate is already full and on top of it you need to 'take care of' your big kid (WH) is just too much sometimes....., and I don't know about your H, but mine demanded sex all the time when I was tired and running around the house, while WH was watching TV or playing video games...., I really could not be nice to him. I was the bread winner, house keeper, nanny, and free sex partner. That is how I felt. I hope your H at least keeps his jobs......

My attorney just called and suggested to change time, so our meeting was rescheduled for next week. Which is good, I did not want to rush things, as I have several things I needed to finish today.

I am a bit depressed today, but on a bright side, I got bonus and raise I was not expecting. Since I just joined the last week of Sep, and our company's review year ends in Sep, I would not have qualified for raise nor bonus, but my boss and other senior management did not want me to feel that I was left out as they were pleased to have me on board, they decided to go against the policy and gave me something. My boss was even apologetic that the amount was not much, but I truly did not expect this so I was more than happy!

Milk

I have a confession to make - I have to admit that I am now depressed also b/c my best friend (guy) has ditched me.

We have been friends for like 10 years. We became best friends. We used to get together a lot (him, his wife, me and WH) during weekends and we took trips together as well.

Once DS4 was born, my friend K totally fell in love with him and became the greatest uncle to him.

Then ever since the whole thing happened in our marriage, K has always been there to help me and DS4. He and his wife were disguised by WH's behaviors and offered us a lot of emotional and physical help.

K and I did fight a lot, especially since WH left us. I was depressed, stressed out, but also we fought a lot probably because I felt that K was telling me things from the stand point where he had his wife and family AND me, while I did not have my husband....., things are very different and when K wanted more emotional investments from me, I did not feel it was right nor fair.

Anyway, to make the long story short....., we had another fight about a week ago and now we do not talk. K still sends me jokes or something over email, but nothing personal. He also used to call me everyday but he stopped doing so. I was okay first, but do miss speaking to him about many things - my work, DS4, friends, WH, etc. After not speaking to him in person for a week, I text messaged yesterday asking if he will not talk to me in person anymore.

He basically said he is 'tired' of continuing to make emotional investment in me and DS4.

I think I am depressed (1) simply because I have lost my best friend, but also (2) I feel that all men who are close to me end up feeling this way towards me...??? That I do not return emotions and end up tiring them out?

But it is different. With WH, if that is how he felt, that's my fault. But with K, since he was my friend, neither my husband nor boy friend, how much emotion could I return? There were many moments I knew what he wanted me to say or act, but I could not do so b/c I felt that was not appropriate. And the result is....., he is 'tired', just like WH became tired?

I don't know but I feel that maybe I should not be with men anymore....., I am not 'meant' to have a relationship?

Milk

We can examine this in more detail, but for now, can I say that I bet you will see this differently when you wake up Thursday morning than you do now. Give this time, believe in yourself.

My belief is that you are a daughter of God. You have in you the seeds of success. If you do the things you know are right, if you pray, if you continue to try.... the success you seek will come to you. You know this is the way God works in our lives.

Perhaps if we explore this later, some answers will come to you. For now, look to your goals, do what is needed RIGHT NOW, and have faith.

Must go -

SS

Thanks SS. I hope you are right and I will not be so depressed about this tomorrow.

I spoke to my girlfriend and we both came to the conclusion: life is short so we cannot keep worrying about manything - we will have to do the best we can and the rest will work out! One of my co-workers' father who was only 59 just passed away, unexpectedly. This really made me think again - you never know what is going to happen. I have to treasure what I have now, and I need to stop worrying so much, including my friendship issue with K.

Thanks for your encouraging and powerful comment, SS.

Milk

My belief is that a true friend won't just get tired of helping and quit.......... unless..........

Unless - they see no hope of change. Then they would remain your friend, but perhaps be more distant. The type of contact might change, but not be cut off altogether.

Unless - Something changes inside of them. But with K, since he was my friend, neither my husband nor boy friend, how much emotion could I return? There were many moments I knew what he wanted me to say or act, but I could not do so b/c I felt that was not appropriate. And the result is....., he is 'tired', just like WH became tired?

What you said seems to be correct. What does that tell you about what he is doing?
He may not be doing it on purpose, and he may not realize it, but you knew. Don't feel bad about HIS BAD REACTION TO YOU DOING WHAT YOU OUGHT TO DO.

I don't know but I feel that maybe I should not be with men anymore....., I am not 'meant' to have a relationship?

So, how should I treat this statement.

Seriously, and feel bad for you?

No, all of us have moments of self doubt. I think you will come through that in good shape, after you think this through.

With Humor?
Well, we really could laugh about it, because I think you do know better.
You do know better......... right? (grin)

I should tease you more. They say that smiles are good for your face.

Here's a poem for you. I have posted it for others, but I don't think I have posted it for you before. If I have, you can tease me.

If...

Rudyard Kipling


If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!


Now, this is written in the masculine, but it applies to you too, and you can see it in many of the lines. Please trust yourself when others doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too. Examine what happened, and understand it, and don't think the problem is all of your doing.

I have to leave again, but I think (based on your last post) that you already got it.

I hope you sleep well. You really ought to, and if you know who you are, and where you are going, you will.

SS

SS, thank you for this. I read it several times. The sentence "trust yourself when other doubt you, but make allowance for their dounbting too" is so powerful. How do you do that?

For example, both WH and K told me several same things about me - they both told me that "I do not like men". If two men who have been very close to me feel this way, I must act in a way that makes them feel this way. So I DO make allowance for other people's opinions, but it is hard to trust myself... Seriously, SS, you are a man too - what do you think about their assessment of me? What are they saying? Do they feel that deep inside I do not trust men or I do not completely open up for them? Because I never verbally said that I dislike men. If that's the case, why did I suffer so much from my failing marriage? Or losing my best friend who is also a guy?

Milk

Milk,
I don't have time right now, to do a good job of this, but I will do the short version.

Of course you didn't trust your H.
I bet you did at first, but in the end, you would have been foolish to trust him. I am sure it came out in your conversation, and all your interaction with him. I bet he could feel it.

I think it's his fault - he was not trustworthy. What else can you say about that?

I don't know about K, but I have some thoughts I can run past you when I get more time.

SS

Thanks SS. I was gone and just read your comment. It's weird, because I wanted to trust H and DID trust him on most of the things but then I was afraid to get hurt so I didn't trust him on certain things, which now I look back are BIG, such as 'commitment', 'responsibility', and 'honesty'.

I'll be meeting with my attorney this Friday. I'll keep praying that I will be strong enough to deal with it.

I haven't spoken (exchanged emails) with K for the past 4 days. He sent me a link to a song which he said reminds him of us. I haven't listened to it, and haven't reponded to him on this. I think at least we are not mad at each other, so that's good.

Life is strange. My life is becoming more and more something I could never imagine it would become.

Milk

It's really hard to KNOW what is going on with the trust issue.

Do you really have some kind of a problem?
Is this something you should think more about?
Do you need to change the way you interact with men?

I can't answer these questions. I don't have enough data to do that. In addition to lack of data......... the information I do have comes from you, and we know that most of the time we skew the data as we pass it on to others.

I don't mean that in a bad way. If you really do have a problem, you probably wouldn't be able to examine it very well. Like someone who is color blind can't get a good feel for the full color spectrum.

There are valid reasons why you didn't trust your H. He proved that he wasn't trustworthy. You would be foolish to trust someone who had already shown they couldn't be trusted. As I said, early on, I bet you did trust him. It was only after he began to lie, and cheat that you pulled back.

I have said more than once that if I could watch people interact for an hour or two in a social setting it would be much easier to know some of the things you are wondering about. It nearly always comes out in conversation.

As far as the you not liking men..........

If you didn't like men you wouldn't be so hurt by what happened. I think that part is plain.

I am wondering what K means. We can be friends with someone, and discuss parts of our lives and still not cross the line to emotional intimacy. If you have had concerns about K getting too close to that line, then it may very well be he is asking for trust that he doesn't need, and shouldn't have. I can't know though, all I can do is speculate.

It's hard for you to step back and look at this in a detached manner. Because of that, it's hard for you to understand exactly what is going on. However, no one else has been in on all the interaction, and conversation you have had with both men. I have found that having quiet time to meditate and think about things helps me figure these things out (for me.) Prayer helps too, it does make a difference.

If I had to make a judgement, I would say this:

Your H is exactly right about you not trusting him. That is his fault, because he continues to be untrustworthy. He is still making promises that he backs out of nearly as fast as he makes them. "This time I'll do what I say - this time is different." I think if it were me, I would tell my laywer that it's time to stop being nice, and see how little we can give H. My personal opinion is that people who do what he has been doing will only learn by the school of hard knocks. I think he needs an education. I would be tempted to answer his requests for more with something like this: "H, I tried to be nice, but you keep changing your requests. I am through being nice, all agreements are off, and I'll see you in court."
If he does submit an offer, have him submit it to your lawyer, tell him to leave you alone.
Please don't feel guilty for not trusting H. He took that possibility a way from you a long time ago.

It sounds like K is expecting to much. Like he EXPECTS more than he ought to from you. It's impossible for me to know for sure, with the little information I have, but that's what it feels from what you have said.

Have you seen this post?
Takola on trust

Perhaps it will help you understand a little bit better why you DON't trust H, and why you shouldn't trust him.

With male/female friendships, it is dangerous to assume things. I have some female friends. As a rule, I don't talk on the phone to them. Any email exchanges also go to my W. I never meet them in person unless my W can be there also. If K is not protecting his W, then you are right to be concerned. Often there are reasons we don't trust, and we feel them, but it is difficult to define or identify them. Don't accept others blanket assessment that you don't trust, without looking at the big picture. Is K sometimes pushing for too much? You could be creating distance to protect yourself, but not realize you are doing it.

I would guess that might be what is going on.


I know you are not looking forward to what will take place the next little while. Think about it a little bit. Knowing how things have been recently, it should bring you some measure of peace.

Major direction change -
You never did say much about your parents visit. I would be interested in hearing how it went.
What do they like to do when they visit?
Does DS speak two languages?

With all that has been going on, did you get to spend much time with them?

Now, the bottom line -
Have some faith in yourself. Perhaps you have some faults?
I suspect that means you are a member of the human race.
You'll figure this out in time, and you will be fine in the long run. Welcome to real life, and may you find joy in the journey. (grin)

SS

SS, thanks for your constructive & wonderfully put reply.

Do I have some faults? Oh my God, a ton!!! I look at some people and wonder how they manage to remain so calm and 'accept' reality and keep moving forward. Like one of my co-workers whose father passed away unexpectedly last week. He was only 59 and in good health. My friend just flew back (he is from Eastern Europe) and has been working normally. I wouldn't have been able to do that. If anything ever happen to my family, I would be devastated. I won't be functioning. One of my GF who has gone through divorce and now is happily remarried with two kids, once told me that when she was going through D (although she filed), it was very difficult, but she felt that she can't screw up her career and totally focused on her job during the hard time. I couldn't do so. Which now looking back, however, I don't regret so much because thank to that, I had an opportunity to look elsewhere and ended up landing on this job I have now, which is just wonderful. I love working with people I work with now and I enjoy my job about 20 times more now. And the pay is so much better too.

Anyway, the point is, when I lived with WH, I always wonder why he was so weak....., but now I feel I'm just as weak (although I would never do drugs or get myself into any type of addictions), and I do envy other 'strong' people. I feel I am still lacking the nice grip on my life, even though I do enjoy living each day.

K has been my best friend. We have supported each other, but fairly speaking, he has supported me much more than I have. When I needed something, he always stepped in to help. One time he even cried out loud with me on the phone because I was hurting so badly from my failing marriage. He was crying because he felt my great pain and yet he could not do anything about it. I was greatly moved by that. To hear a big man cry, because I was crying so much – I really appreciated that he totally understood my pain and shared the moments with me. Sure, he would not have been this supportive and loving to me, had I been a guy. I am not going to lie that he was just being nice, as if he would have done this to anyone. But strangely his wife has always known that his husband was attracted to me, but she always had great understanding. That’s something I don’t think I could ever do. K said this is probably because his wife also truly loves me and DS4 as her extended family (she is quite older than me, and almost treats me like her younger sister or big daughter). I don’t think that’s the case, though. I think his wife is just a very smart woman who loves her husband to death, and knows how to give trust and freedom to a man. Again, when I see person like this, I always wonder how she does this.

Thanks for asking about my parents. It was great having them around and both DS4 and I had a great time. Unfortunately it was unbelievably cold while they were here so we couldn't really do much in terms of activities, but we still went out to dinner, etc., and had fun.

I try to speak to my son in Japanese at home, so he seems to understand most of what I am saying, although he replies in English. Since he is learning some Spanish at school, sometimes he uses Spanish thinking it's Japanese, which is pretty funny. I've been teaching him Japanese letters too, and he can read some of them now. It's a lot of fun to see this little child who was only a baby a few years ago learning so much every day! This morning he asked me if I know what "X-tray" is (and he explained to me that it is a picture of bones), and also asked about 'FBI'. He now understands the concept of 'laws' too, and sometimes picks up something from the radio and asks me "Mama, did he break the law? So he is going to jail?" Having my boy was the most rewarding experience I ever had, and for that, I don't have regret that I married WH. Even without DS4, WH and I had many fun memories, so in the end I don't think I necessarily had a bad deal. I wish DS4 could grow up like I did, having the original parents and a stable family, but I guess I can't have everything on my wish list....

How have you been, SS? What are your goals in life you are trying to achieve?

Milk

Just got another email from WH....

I was supposed to meet with my lawyer last week but it was rescheduled for tomorrow, which I already communicated with WH about. This is just a scheduling conflict and I am not trying to drag this settlement. WH said he understood and thanked me for the update. Besides, initially he was supposed to agree on our agreement over a year ago, but he backed off. He approached me last year after his DUI and before the tax return that he wanted to come home. He backed off. Then he got an accident and again it's a tax return season and he wants to settle...., again, he backed off from our first agreement. But now he wants me to move as quickly as possible. Why is it always on his term? Yet he thinks I'm being so unreasonable, selfish, etc. WHY???

In his email he said "You'll be gone next week. I have tried to make this an easy decision but it seems like it’s taking you and your lawyer considerable time to see this…

I need for you to agree so that we can move on…."

Why I'm always the bad person? Why can't he see that he has broken so many promises but ALWAYS expects me to keep mine? And I have, I have always kept my words, but they were not appreciated. He kept breaking his promises, yet I was too 'up-tight' to point that out. Was his love for me that shallow? What does a 'family' mean to him? What does 'honesty' mean to him? Or am I really over-reacting? Should I have said "oh, you have been smoking pot, but that's not a big deal" and let go? Am I too serious? Because I'm from another country where I was not used to see drugs so this is a cultural difference? I don't know what to think anymore.....

Milk

milk

i've got the answer to all of your questions

because sometimes men are just idiots!!

***the anti-discriminatory statement below resolves me of all financial recourse from the above statement <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ps
as a woman who admits to making many mistakes in my marriage, i can also say.....sometimes women are idiots too

Thanks Eav. WH called last night for DS4 (but I KNOW he actually wanted to ask me if I would be accepting his offer!!!) and also asked me if I had received his email. I told him I hadn't met my lawyer yet and WH said "oh, I didn't know". Ooooookay, didn't I tell him that last week? When I asked him that, he denied it first and then said "well, I don't remember...". That's right, I have forgotten about this......, memory is not something WH was ever good at. Sigh.

I'll be fine, I think, this afternoon. Yes it stinks that I am spending my time and money to meet with my attorney so that we can potentially finalize our settlement agreement to 'complete' breaking up our family. Isn't that something. BUT, I am not going to run away from it any more. I did everything I could do, and WH chose this path, which is something he has to live with the rest of his life. DS4 is too small right now to understand any of this, and I am not going to bad mouth his father, but, he is a smart boy. He will eventually figure this out - his father's addictions, love letters to other women, his signing up for multiple online dating services while we were still together....., and he blamed me for his unhappiness...., that he broke so many promises...., and yet he is the one who filed for divorce.

I will try to remain strong. Eav, you are right, we could be wrong, making mistakes, not giving enough attention to men, etc., but men can just simply be idiots!!! Many of them remain 3-year-old inside... My DS4's behaviors and thinking patterns resemble those of WH's often, really.

Milk

I just came back from my meeting with my attorney.

It was a good meeting. I prayed before my meeting and was able to remain calm and did not get emotional at all.

I am getting more in assets, and in return, I told him that I would not demand 50% of school, extra curriculum, medical bills, etc., from WH. He said it's part of WH's responsibility as a father, but I told him I do make comfortable amount of money and instead WH has always been cash poor, so I do not need his money. I do not want to go through pain of retaining every tiny receipt to turn them to WH for him to pay a portion of it. And if he is late in payment or does not pay it at all, I will only get frustrated, hurt, upset, etc. It's just not worth it. I do not want to live the rest of my life like that. So I rather pay a premium so that WH and I can remain friends and we can minimize our future drama.

I felt good. I emailed WH to let him know that we'll be working on our settlement agreement. He should feel relieved by this news.

On my way back from the meeting, this is how I felt:

"I thank WH, despite what happened to us in the end. I did have good time with him, and I thank him for staying behind me for this long. He has issues, but after all I do not think he was a bad person. So I thank him and also God for that. I hope he had good memories with me too. And some of the things I did or did not do for WH, I hope I am making up for it by agreeing to this divorce in the end in a peaceful manner. I hope at least I am paying my price for my crime. I hope WH will forgive me for my crime. I hope I will learn from this and will become a better person. And I hope WH will always love DS4"

...and I think WH will. I think he will always love DS4.

Milk

Am I too serious? Because I'm from another country where I was not used to see drugs so this is a cultural difference? I don't know what to think anymore.....

You do too know what to think -
Right and wrong do not change from country to country. Only peoples perception changes. I applaud your high standards, and I recommend you look for a man who has the same. There are still a few out there.

I am sorry for what has happened. I know it has been very difficult. We tend to deal with the facts here, and what you could do, or might do.

We haven't talked much lately about how you must feel. Not having been where you are, I can only imagine, but I do know it must be very hard to have it come to this.

I do hope you have a weekend.
Thanks for the info about your family. If I ever meet your parents, I'll tell them what a good job I think they did when they raised you.
I hope that you and DS4 have a nice vacation planned for this year. I think you should.

As for my goals.........

I am trying to find out what God wants me to do each day, and do that. I used to have dreams about growing my business, and expanding it. I find these last few years I don't care about it so much, and I am more worried about my family, my friends, and having my life be right with God.

I want to be a good example for my children.
I don't want my W to wonder if I love her, I want her to know every day that I do. I want to show her that by how I treat her.
I suppose my goals run along these lines.
Is that what you wanted to know?

SS

Beautiful, your goals are very strong, confident, and beautiful. Thanks for sharing them SS.

And thank you for saying that my parents raised me right - it's very very sweet of you to say that. I think they taught me what's wrong and what's right - I just feel from time to time that maybe I'm too 'uptight', as WH used to call me and that might annoy American men...., I have heard from others that doing some drugs is not such a big deal, lusting over other women (as long as they do not actually cheat) is not a big deal, etc., and I began to feel that my strict rules might have driven WH crazy.

I want to be a good example of my son too. I also want to raise him in a way so that he will NOT excuse his actions. Whatever the path he chooses in the future should be a result of his conscious decision and I want him to be a responsible individual who has moral.

Have a great weekend!

Milk

It sounds like I was raised much like you were, and my feelings are about the same.

I don't think any good can come from drug use, except as prescribed by a doctor for treatment of illness. I know that before we do something wrong, we must first think about it. If we kept our thoughts under control, and refused to entertain thoughts of cheating, or anything that is harmful to others or our selves, then the the harmful act would not take place.

No country in the world will prosper, or remain free if it's citizens don't practice self discipline, and self control. You know this is true.

I hope you and DS have a great weekend also. Concentrate on the good parts of your future. That's where you'll find joy in the journey.

SS

SS, Seeing your positive attitude really helps me to stand still.

I'm leaving early morning tomorrow for Europe, and just dropped off DS4 at WH's place. As always, his place is such a mess. But that's not anything new. But now he's saying that he wants to change his job (again) and also wants to get a tattoo. I know many Americans have them, but I am an old school and don't like them. But I didn't say anything to him, b/c now it's really none of my business. I just do not want DS4 to grow up thinking shooting, having tattoos and riding motorcycles is 'cool', but I can't prevent WH from doing what he wants to do in his life. I thought we used to have a very similar standard, but I guess I was wrong. WH is becoming more and more a person I cannot relate much...

Also, his iron is still on and was on top of the iron board. I asked him to switch off when he is not using, because that is only asking for an accident - I don't even want to imagine what would happen if DS4 is running around the ironing board and the hot burning iron fall on his head/face. There are just so many things I can be very concerned, but I tried not to say much, and WH shut off the iron.

I pray to God that DS4 will be safe at his dad's place for a week. I’m not sure if I’ll have time to log in next week while I’m traveling – if not, I’ll talk to you when I get back! Have a wonderful week.

Milk

I'm back - had a very good time in Europe.

It is a bit depressing, however, to see the draft of settlement agreement as one of the first things in my mailbox soon as I came back.

WH is considering changing his jobs, and said the reason is he received a very bad review. He said "including my career, I need to figure out what the ****** I want to do in my life". An interesting comment, huh? IF he was referring to our divorce and his future plan, shouldn't he have spent a lot of time making sure he knew what he was doing before pulling the big trigger?

But we all know that it's pointless to speculate. It's not like he said he wanted to reconsider about our divorce. So I just have to keep moving on.......

I have a sore throat and feel a bit chill. Hope I'm not coming down with anything..... While I was in Europe, I slept only 4 hours or so each night, so needless to say, I'm very tired.......

Hope everyone had a nice weekend.

Milk

milk

he still has no idea what he wants to be when he grows up does he?

maybe he will decide he wants to be a full time H and father again

wouldn't THAT be nice?

My H siad the same things
"I'm 40 years old and i don't know what i want to do with he rest of my life."

welllll it turns out he didn't know because OW hadn't decided to leave her H and move in with him yet

as soon as she did....he figured it out pretty quickly

and now, thanks to that "rat bast*ard" i'm going to be 40 years old and i have no idea what to do with the rest of MY life

Hi Eav, good to hear from you. I don't understand people like your WH and mine! Come'on, that's such a typical MLC comment! That they don't know what they want to do???

Well, it's not like all of us here know exactly what we want to do, but at least I knew what I wanted (a stable and happy family, and a few other things;), and I was making efforts towards that. A family is very important to WH as well, and I just don't understand how he drew the conclusion (a very firm one too!) that he would be MUCH better off and this is BEST for everyone involved that we get divorced. Then why is he still depressed? Why can't he perform at work? Shouldn't he be jumping up and down with joy (as we get closer to finalizing our D) and therefore doing an awesome job at work???

If it's THAT hard for him as well, then there must have been something WRONG in his plan to start with, I think....., because if you know it's genuinely good for everyone, you tend to such up whatever your emotions and can move forward.

You are doing fine, Eav, I can tell from your posts that you are doing much better. You may not know what you want to do with the rest of your life NOW, but that's understandable. It's the transitional period for you. You haven't even decided whether you want to move closer to your family or not....there are many things you have to consider, and unlike us, you two are officially still married! That's the wild thing, of course you can't quite decide what you want to do...., you feel like everything is still up in the air.... To certain extent, I still feel the same way.

I think I'm finally getting how to 'surrender'..... And it certainly helps free myself BIG TIME!

I've been wondering about something.....

There are many beautiful women, everywhere. In my opinion, those (I'm talking about those I know personally but also those celebrities as well) husbands often end up cheating. Now, I know a few couples (sorry, I don't know that many...) that stay together forever......., and the wives are, just on the surface, not very attractive. And I have to wonder....., is the difference that those men were not attracted to the women's outside in the first place, they managed to stay in love? And those who chose beautiful women married them because of their beauty, if there are other younger & more beautiful versions pop up, they end up cheating???

I know this is a very simplistic way to view the whole mystery (??) of the affair world, but some of my friends agreed.

So, in other words, if a man approaches you saying how beautiful you are, you need to be careful in my opinion, b/c he is focusing on your appearance rather than inside..., and if a man compliment both on your inside and outside, that's a good sign??? Just wondering...

Milk

Generalities are kind of general. (grin)

I suspect you are still trying to make sense of "WHY".

As I read on MB, I can see in some cases why an A happened. IN come cases it is easy to see that there was neglect, and temptation. Over time, some people in this situation let down their guard.
In other cases, it looks like a personality defect in the one who had the A, and we can see no reason for it.

The saying goes that there are lies, dam lies, and statistics. Statistics can tell us things when taken in proper context. They can also be very misleading.

For instance, a large percentage of people who die in the United States are in the hospital when they die. One could say that your chances of staying alive would increase if you stayed out of the hospital. An even higher percentage die in bed, so if you never go to bed, you increase your chances to live.... right?

My personal opinion is that selfishness is a better measuring device than looks. If you find an unselfish person, there is much less chance they will have an A. However, that is more difficult to measure. It takes a lot of time getting to know a person in order to make a decision.

Of course, selfishness goes hand in hand with vanity. Sometimes beauty, and vanity are connected, sometimes not.

Questions for you -
You slept poorly in Europe because ?
The time difference? Or you were worried, or ??

You say you had a great time -
That begs to be expanded upon. So?

What things do you notice about DS when you come home after being gone for a week? What do you look for?
Hmmm, that is kind of vague........
Lets try again. When you travel, you would probably worry about him quite a bit. When you get back, you are happy to see him, but I would guess you watch him close to see how he is. What would be the signs that he was not OK, and What things reassure you that he is OK?

How are YOU now?
How is your self image?
When you doubt your future, or worry about it, what thoughts come to you.

Most people believe they will be mostly OK, but sometimes we have specific fears.
What are your "what if's"?

For instance, "What if I can never have a normal relationship with a man"? I don't know what yours are, but I use that as an example so you can more easily see what I mean.

When you worry, what are the "what ifs" for you?

Ah.......... questions, they never seem to end. (grin)

SS

milk

i think you ahve a good point

at least in my case anyway

it seems my H fell in love with what he saw when he looked at me

not who he saw when he looked inside of me

and now he's found someone who he loves becaue of WHO she is not what she looks like

maybe that's what he meant when he said he's different now

Thanks for your input SS and eav, and sorry I haven't had a chance to reply...

I've been pretty busy with work and also my son was sick (I heard you were too, eav, how are you?) and I had to take care of him. I always had DS4 get flu shot since he was born, and it's the first time ever that I did not do so, and boom! He got a flu. At least I had a flu shot so DS4 didn't get me sick so I could take care of him...

SS, I know what I said was pretty general, but I do think it apllies to many cases. Really, when you look around, beautiful couples tend to break up more often..., because men (ok, women too but I think in general - again - men tend to be more visual than us) are attracted to outside beauty rather than inside OR they do not care much about women's inner beauty. But as you pointed out, what I am doing is trying to make sense of all, and that is pointless, I know.

Eav, my STBX also told me when he left "next time, I will choose a woman who weighs 300 pounds but is spiritual". That hurt. So I am not spritual? But that was just a talk..., he DID go to church several times but they all told him the way he was thinking was wrong and he should not leave his family - he stopped going. And now he says he does not like those people at church who tell you what to do as if they know better. And his profile on one of the online dating services says he is looking for a 'slender' woman, so guess he is (again) not sticking to his statement...

Well so I guess there may be some tendency among men who are overly visual, but at the same time, whatever your WH and mine said to us (that they are 'different' now, etc.) could be quite fishy.

So SS, you are right, in the end, that we might be wasting our time trying to 'figure' out our WHs...., because none of their behaviors make sense anyway...

Milk

So SS, you are right, in the end, that we might be wasting our time trying to 'figure' out our WHs...., because none of their behaviors make sense anyway...

Sometimes it makes sense, but usually not.
I do think both men and women who value inner beauty will have a better and longer lasting relationship. Of course, their partner needs to have the same values.

Perhaps what bothers me the most is that you don't seem to be at peace yet. I know it takes time, I hope you get there.

What kind of time frame are you on for all these legal things to happen?

SS

Well, I think I am at peace....., I don't really think about our M or STBX much any more. The only time I get depressed about it is when I have to think about the legality of it and also when it was reminded by my little boy. STBX is wants to remain friends, and I will do so for the sake of DS4, but really, I do not think I will consider him as my friend to be honest. Friends do not betray - so what kind of friend can WH be to me? But I won't say anything about it, as I'm sure DS4 would like to see us getting along well, even after the split. Besides I'm so close to his family and still get together with them often, I do not want any sense of hostility among us.

As for the timeline - we are basically in agreement and our draft is ready. I'm waiting for STBX's lawyer to get back to us with whatever changes or questions they may have. Then once we incorporate all the changes, we are done. It is very strange to think that we will be officially divorced soon. We will be strangers, that's so weird. I call his parents mom and dad, which I'm sure will not change. But we are not family anymore. So strange.

Milk

If you feel you are at peace, that is what counts.

You are correct in that a real friend won't betray.
I think it would be difficult for me to play the part of a friend in the situation you are in.

Prayers continue.

SS

Thanks SS.

There are certain things you just cannot do to anyone, even if you hardly know him/her. If you consider him/her as your friend, there is more hesitation to do anything that you think (s)he will not appreciate. And I just don't know how WH has managed to do all what he did to me, who has spent the past 16 1/2 years together and WAS his wife of 13 1/2 years and is a mother of his child. I wonder in his mind this is a 'payback'. Because in his mind I did not treat him right, he feels he is 'entitled' to treat me badly in return...

See, I might have yelled and screamed at him out of frustration when we were living together, but I never lied to him. I was always thinking of OUR future together and OUR life together, and that is why I got frustrated often when I felt we were not on the same page (like WH's smoking pot and playing computer game all day long when I felt we should be role models to our child and also should be spending time together as a family). To me, WH's years of lying and having a secret life behind my back is a much worse crime...., but is it???

Anyway, my point is that WH's ability to have done all of this while he knew how much his lying had bothered me, the fact he continued to show this ability by not keeping his words when it comes to our divorce agreement, and his being able to tell me that he wants us to remain friends..., are truly disturbing to me. Is it HIM, or could it be ME who gives impression to others that I am not worth any respect?

Then my thinking sometimes goes around and around again..., do people tell me nice things NOT because they mean them but they think I'm an easy prey? The truth is no one truly respects me in the first place? What is the 'true' problem here??

As long as I do not think about STBX, I'm at peace, but see, when I start to connect all the 'dots', I start to wonder a lot...., and obviously my peace disappears pretty quickly.

Who am I (in the eyes of others)??? Or should I even care how I am being perceived by others? But I do want to get a realistic grip on how I am being evaluated by others.

Milk

To me, WH's years of lying and having a secret life behind my back is a much worse crime...., but is it???

Of course, I am not the ultimate judge. We leave that to God.
However, I think there is a difference between those who really try, and still fall short, and those who do whatever they want, because it feels good to them at the time, and don't care about duty or honor.

I am sure you did some things wrong. I only say that because I know we all make mistakes at some point or another.

I don't think you can take the responsibility for what he did though. Sometimes in looking for reasons, we blame ourselves. We can only do as well as we know at the time. We can't excuse the Wayward, and blame ourselves. Well, I suppose we could, but it doesn't mean it's fact.

I have watched others here wonder if they really are as bad as what the WS painted them to be. SVB1 was another who wondered, and agonized about the things her WH said.

There comes a point in time where you have to trust your self. I don't know if you will ever be able to connect the dots until you have your interview with God, and he tells you how it really was.

I'll tell you what I told SVB1.

Trust yourself.
Believe in your self.

Others view of you may be important. In many companies, we have an evaluation and our continued employment may depend upon how well we do.

I would guess you look good in these reviews. That would be (and should be) a major clue. (Grin)

Your H did not do well, and for good reason, but he never figured out why. That is also a major clue.

Think about this part of it. You know you do well in many areas of your life. You know you are smart, and have talent.

Yes, do look at your self, and try to improve yourself.
No, don't believe the bad things your H said to try to shift the blame from him to you.

Somewhere in all this there has to be balance. God can help you find it - keep talking to him about it, and keep trying.

It will come in time.

SS

I'll keep praying and trying to improve myself - that's all I can do. Thanks SS. Have a wonderful weekend!

Milk

A call from STBX - he wanted to go over our agreement - and it's really stupid. My attorney put down some $ amount (child support) per month, and STBX is panicking, saying that he gets paid biweekly. But what difference does it make? I will get 20% of his net income biweekly, that is fine, it's just that my attorney had to put down something. So that's what I told him "look, the total dollar amount per year is exactly the same. He just needed to put down the $ amount, if you get paid biweekly, that's fine, it doesn't change anything and that's fine". But he kept going on and on "no, it does make a difference...."

Come'on, he has an MBA. I was really annoyed, and showed in my voice. All what he cares is $$$ now. What the hxxx. I'm not even asking for any contribution towards DS4's medical, school, extracurriculm, nothing! I'll pay for all of it, because I do NOT want to deal with STBX on a monthly basis with the stack of receipts. I rather pay for all of it and maintain the decision-making power. I don't need his "no, that's too expensive, send DS4 to a cheaper school", etc. If I think one school is better than the other, I know myself - I will send DS4 there anyway, so in the end most likely I will pay for all of it, so I asked my attorney to remove all the language saying that WH has to contribute 50% towards it. I don't need his help!!!

So why can't he be happy? I am letting him off the hook very easily. I want to MOVE ON, and that means I do not have to worry about receiving some extra money from him every month. That's not how I want to live. I'll most likely always make more than STBX anyway, so that's fine I'll manage it all by myself.

YET..., STBX is still sooooooooooo concerned of money. That really upsets me as well as depresses me. I really don't have any respect left for this man.

After hanging up the phone, he called back but I didn't answer. He left a message saying "sorry, I think I annoyed you with all of those questions...., but that's okay, whatever it is, it's not a big deal, so I'm fine".

Then he called again...., I didn't answer and this time he didn't leave me a message.

Does he realize that he is so cheap???

Milk

WH is refusing to agree that he provides his W2 each year to confirm his income (so that if his income rises, CS will go up). What's up with that???

STBX is having a financial problem. He owes quite a bit in taxes, and he does not have money to pay for it. He asked me if I could give him money in advance (a part of our settlement, since I am buying him out). I replied politely I cannot do so, since I need to liquidate some assets or borrow from my parents to generate cash and I won't feel comfortable doing so before our divorce is final, since then technically whatever amount of money I'll give to him will be considered marital and he can technically ask me ON TOP OF it later on.

Then he followed up with a nasty email - saying "this is bs, milk, it must be nice to sit on the assets and watch your ex go down the hill". What is this??? I have been nice and told him that I loved him and begged for reconiciliation - and now he says I enjoy watching him failing??? What kind of thing to say to the mother of his child? And he thretened me by saying "I will tell this to my dad, that you are not willing to help me", because he knows his parents love me and I love them, he wants me to get scared that now his family will not be behind me!

Any advice?

Maybe I should not have (and I have always done this, which might have been a problem since I have never exercised a true 'tough love'), but I replied to STBX, because it's just not my nature to have such nasty feelings hanging in between us.

I explained I cannot do this because of the potential legal complications, but if that's what he really needs, he needs to contact his lawyer to include some kind of language in our settlement so that whatever amount I will give him now will be deducted from the settlement.

I still have a nut in my stomach. It makes me sad that WH is so selfish and blows up instantly and views me like a monster.

My advice is let him fall -

I don't think he will learn any other way.

Don't worry about the things he is saying -
I see that he has gotten good at trying to blame others for his mistakes, and then get them to bail him out of problems that he caused all by himself.

Let him figure it out.

SS thinks some more.........

It looks to me like he never really interacts with people on a friendly basis. It looks like everything he says, and every thing he does is him trying to set the person up so he can get something out of it in the future.

Now, I don't know him, and I have no proof, and I can't read his mind, but it looks like that to me.

Protect your self.
Let him deal with the mess he caused.

I think if it was me that read his email, I may have replied like this:

"Sorry things are not going well for you. I hope you make it work. Please quit asking me for help, I have my own life to live now."


He can always sell his guns, and motorcycle to pay his taxes. Don't tell him that though - let him figure it out.

I'm surprised you didn't laugh, and write back: "Oooohhhh you poor thing, I feel soooooooo sorry for you."

Smile Milk - You'll be OK.

SS

SS, I wrote a reply yesterday but it just poof! disappeared...

Thanks for your advice. It's so true, and I know this in my head but am having a hard time actually letting him 'fall'. It is laughable, that a 38-year-old man is telling me "I'll tell my dad that you are not willing to help me" to get me to help him. He sounds like my 4-year-old.

And I know why his dad is not helping. His dad is like me, who has a soft spot for WH so that we always in the end bail WH out - we always did in the past. But his mom is a tough one. She told me several times in the past that since all of this was brought on to himself and he was so sure that he had thought about this and was doing the right thing, while treating me and his own family badly - then when he needs help, he can take care of his own mess too. So MIL told me that she would not help her son when it comes to finance and anything related to our divorce. And she told me that she won't let her husband help WH either. So the fact WH is having a financial problem and is not getting help from his dad, means to me that his mom found out about this and told FIL not to help.

Still, it is hard for me to just ignore. And when WH called me several times yesterday (see, only when he needs something, he calls!) and told me “let’s not fight over this”, which is also laughable, since I was not picking a fight but he was. So I told him “WH, I wasn’t fighting with you, I wasn’t upset, you were the one who was ready to bite my head off”. Then he had a nerve to say “let’s not get emotional here OK”. I told him I’m way beyond that point and am NOT emotional. Anyway, in the end I kind of gave in and implied that I could help, as long as his lawyer includes the language in our agreement that I will not double pay WH when we settle. But I could tell WH was still not happy, because he thought I would have said "ok, fine, I'll give you money". So he just said "fine" and hung up.

Well this morning he sent me an email just to let me know that he would "take care of this on his own, since he is running out of time and he will have to tap in his 401K". Now, this made me feel bad, so I guess WH successfully accomplished his mission. The only reason he sent me this email was to make me feel bad - that now poor WH needs to get money from his 401K so that he will be penalized again next year.

All of my friends, like you SS, suggested that I leave WH alone. And I know that it's not my fault that WH lives alone in an apartment and was arrested twice and had to pay for his lawyers. It's not my fault that he has financial problems because of that. And it's not my fault that he decided to purchase a fancy motorcycle and keep a fancy car (that I am paying for) when he is in financial crisis. It's not my fault that he got in a car accident and his premium went up. YET, just not doing anything to help him makes me feel so bad. I'm not laughing at him, yet I feel like such a bixxx. And again, WH knows me - he knows that I have a soft spot for him like a mother would for her child.

One time our MC told WH to grow up and learn how to be more responsible and told me to stop mothering him. So that's this is all about...

I just could not ignore his email this morning, so just replied to him with suggestions (that he could get a payment plan with IRS or get a loan from a bank to pay his taxes instead of getting money from his 401K and once we settle he can pay it all off). Probably I should not have, but at least I can feel that I did not ignore him...

Man, I thought I was a tough little gal but I have a long way to master a true 'tough love'!

I know WH won't be happy that I just gave him 'suggestions' and not 'solutions' - and will probably get back to me with nasty emails or phone calls again.

I will try not to let that affect me.

Again thanks for your advice SS. What you said about how I should have responded made me laugh. Thanks.

Milk

P.S. By the way, when I was on the phone with WH last night, DS4 asked when I would be done with the phone so I told him “I’m almost done sweetie”, then
WH: “who was that??”
Me: “it’s DS4”
WH: “no, no, but there is someone!”
Me: “no it’s only DS4”
WH: “but I heard a guy’s voice”
Me: “I don’t know, it must be the TV”

Within a week after WH moved out in 2005, he started to look for a new date, despite his IC’s advice not to since he is a sex addict. He signed up for a multiple online dating services with false profile. Yet if he thought there might be a guy in my house, after YEARS of rejection from him, he gets upset about it? What is that, he thinks I am truly like his mother who will always be here for him??

WH wrote to me again today - he said "I already have too many credit card bills so I cannot make another loan", "let's just finalize the divorce - it's been dragging on for too long".

I always want to help people too -

~ But ~

We need to consider if what we are about to do will help, or not help.

So often it does not help, but only prolongs the problem.

Is the problem that he needs money for his taxes, or is the problem that he never learned how to budget and manage money?

Once you identify the problem, it's much easier to know what will help/not help.

There is a saying -

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.
Teach him how to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

If you have lots if fish, sometimes it easier to just hand them out. Easy is not always the best thing.

I don't mean to say you don't understand. I would guess you do. I hope you don't mine me reviewing from time to time. I know it often helps me, so I figure maybe you won't mind.

When I first came to MB, there was a quote I heard often in connection with WS's.

"Don't try to teach unless there is a student in the house."

Meaning of course, that until the WS wanted to learn the MB Concepts, it was useless to try to feed the information to them. Of course, it is so plain to you how to fix his problems. I continue to hope that he will "get it" at some point in the future. You need to base your interactions with him with these things in mind.

Will he learn by words, or does he need the school of hard knocks?

What does he really need?

Will any given course of action help his real needs, or just be a stopgap measure that won't help in the long run?

If you measure his requests against these questions, perhaps it will be easier for you to know what to do.

It's not that we don't help, it's that we understand what helps the most, even if it's painful for the other person in the short term.

I feel for you, I know it hurts to see a person you love travel such a difficult road. I am glad you care. That is good, shows strength, not weaknesses.

It's funny he thought there was a man in the house with you. Did he think you would avoid dating forever?

Learn to laugh at the things he says - that's easier than taking it personal, and wondering if it's your fault, of if you could have done things differently, or better.

Of course these things are my opinion - and everyone has one. It just seems to me that it's time for you to seize the day - and make your days into what you need, and want. Not let............ days, time, and thoughts stretch you over the rack of uncertainty.

Help him all you can, just make sure it's the right kind of help.

SS

Thanks SS. Your ability to identify core problems in others’ situations is very impressive, and I wonder that’s a result of your life long experience and wisdom, or of lots of reading…..???

WH seems to have calmed down and now does not mention his tax money anymore, so that's good. He called again yesterday to let me know that he has a class every Tuesday for the next 4 weeks because of his DUI last year and he cannot pick DS4 up for dinner (typically WH picks him up on Tues evening). He asked instead if he could pick DS4 up on Wed, so I said that's fine.

I just came back from lunch and there was a message from WH - he was wondering if he could keep DS4 overnight. I really do not understand why he did not mention it last night when he called? First, he only told me about his classes. I said that's fine if he could not pick up DS4 on Tues evenings for a while, but then again I was wondering why he did NOT let me know before, because I had already gone to pick DS4 up from his school. I did not hear anything from WH, and I had a feeling he would NOT go pick up DS4, and my feeling was correct. But how do I know then when he will go pick DS4 up or when he does not? Over the past two years, I always had to call or email him to 'confirm' he was picking up DS4, because otherwise either he forgets or something comes up, or whatever..... my friends suggested that I stop doing this, because WH needs to learn how to be responsible and reliable so that I do not need to do all the work for him.

So yesterday I did not call nor email to confirm. And I did not hear anything, so I KNEW he was not going to pick up DS4. What if, though, I assumed that WH was on schedule? Then no one would have showed up at DS4's school!

This extends to WH's visitation (or parenting time) with DS4 every other weekend. He is supposed to come by 10am on Sat morning, but he often shows up 11am or even 12pm. Last time, I had an appointment with my hair dresser and needed to leave home shortly after noon, yet he did not show up until around 12:00pm so that I was late! He called at 11am, to let me know that he was running late. I said "you sound like you just woke up", to which he said yes. "You know, I have my plans too and need to know in advance - are you coming now to pick up DS4?" He said "I am going to shower now so I'll be there in an hour"! I told him to forget about shower and just come ASAP. Then he showed up, like I said, at noon.

I know he doesn't do this on purpose, but he is just not reliable. So for this reason, I hesitate to let him do whatever at the last minute notice (like today). He thinks he can just call me and he will be able to NOT pick up DS4 as scheduled and/or to keep him overnight which is something we did not agree.

If it's just for this month and next month, it's really not a big deal, but frankly, when I think about the future - that we'll have to do this last minute arrangement every single week (!!!) for the next 14 years....., I mean, what kind of life is that? I should be able to feel I can trust WH when it comes to DS4. I should be able to sit back and relax, instead of always being worried that DS4 will not be picked up or plans will change all the time.

Sadly, however, I do not think WH will ever change in this regard - I've known him for 16 and a half years, but he has never been the kind of person where you could count on when it comes to planning. He easily makes promises or plans, yet rarely follows through.

Milk

I know men like their partners to share their dreams. I feel I did not 'share' WH's dreams enough.

The reason I am saying this is..., I just had a conversation with my best friend who is a guy. His wife is much older than him - let's say that old enough to be his mother - she cannot have kids. My friend has been wanting to have his own kids (they have his wife's daughter), and my friends and I have told him that (1) he knew he was marrying a woman who was much older and would not be able to have kids, (2) they do have a child - even though she is not biologically his - already, and so it is kind of selfish and senseless to demand that he would find a sarogate mother to have his own child.

Anyway, many years later, he still has this plan and now decided to execute his plan. His wife agreed. So they will fly to another country to find an egg donor and also a sarogate mother. So it will be his, but obviously not hers. And the baby will be almost like his wife's granddaughter, because of her age. She has been wanting to retire, but now my friend just told me that she had an interview last week because she needs to make more money to raise this baby (well, they haven't arranged this yet so technically there is no baby yet). Of course my friend is trying his best to make more money too, but he has just masters whereas his wife has a ph.d., and she has always made more money so most likely again it will be more of her job to provide than him.

Now, I was like..."wow", honestly. I don't know if I could do that if I was in her position. To fly over to another country so that my husband can have his own baby with someone else...., even though 15 or so years ago it was a KNOWN factor that I am much older than him and most likely will not be able to have kids with him. And now he is in his thirties and I'm nearing a retirement age...., yet I am not even allowed to retire because he wants his baby. But his wife would do anything..... Does that mean I am a selfish woman? I wouldn't have done it for my WH, if I was in the same situation and I think I would have been greatly offended....., but is that why WH left? My friend's wife would let him go out to flirt with other girls, let him go out alone with them, be nice to his 'female' friends, would not get jealous...

But if that is what it takes, I am not even sure if I want to be in a relationship...... do women have to give up so much to make their husbands happy? Am I wrong?

Hey milkshake,

I haven't posted to you much, but your situation just jumped out at me. Firstly, I totally understand the situation with your WH. I, too, guide my WH, even without recognizing it. I 'mother' him, I guess.

Well, that is now a thing of the past. I filed my taxes as head of household, claiming my DS and every deduction I could. WH earned untaxed income last year and now has to pay taxes on that. His decision to leave home leaves these things in his wake. It is not for me to do. I didn't decide this.

I know you are not in Plan B, as soooo many seem to be right now, but you can treat this sitch the same. Unless something has to do directly with the children, there is no reason for you to be involved, right?

AS for you WH's tardiness, I know it's a pain, but next time he is late, take your son with you, don't forgo your plans to accomodate him. He's a big, grown, man. If you worked with him and he was exceedingly tardy or late with projects, would you tolerate it? I seriously doubt it. I'm not being mean here, I'm just trying to show things from a different perspective.

I don't really know your story fully, so I couldn't even hazard a guess as to why your WH left. You do sound a bit tortured by these thoughts though.

You know what it takes to have a true, good, real relationship with a loving spouse, and allowing them to act like an in-heat alley cat is not part of that. I think we allow what we feel we can't stop.

Milk, I would not have done what your friend's wife is doing for him, either, BUT, I probably wouldn't be married to him in the first place, either. POJA, remember, doesn't mean sacrifice, it means agreeance that both parties are satisfied with.

Hi Silent, thanks for your post. You are right, I'm not in Plan B, but unless we need to communicate regarding DS4, I never contact him myself. WH calls to talk to DS4, and I usually just give a phone to him.

Yeah, my friend's wife is amazing, that she is willing to give her husband so much freedom - maybe because she is so much older, her focus might be different from ours? I don't know.

Anyway, one thing I can say for sure is that the past 3 1/2 years have been a very long journey for me and DS4, and I have learned so much about life. I wish I didn't learn about it this way, but that's what happened and changed my life. But when I look around, everyone faces some sort of hardships at some point time in life, and that's just how life is.

So how are you doing Silent? How is your little boy?

Milk

Hey Milk,

My DS is doing better, and WH is in the process of helping to find him counseling to deal with his sadness. I also basically demanded that our DS not spend any overnights with WH and OW (WH is living with OW). My WH finally agreed after some much needed pressure from me. WH didn't HAVE to agree, but I expect him to do what is best for his son, fog or no, and I told him I will do everything within my power to assure that DS is not further harmed by WH's choices.

I'm doing okay. I still have good days and bad, sometimes I just have bad moments and then life goes on, which is good. I look forward to warmer weather so that I can get outside and do some work on the house and gardens. I make plans on a week to week basis now, so I'm moving forward a little bit at a time. I get excited about little things again, like coloring Easter Eggs with DS.

I'm still hoping for my M to work out, but I'm not focused on that. I have begun to fondly think of memories I have with my H. My WH had me sooo convinced that our M was bad, so the memories became scewed to me. Now, I'm happy to report that MY memories are happy memories. It's a good day when that happens...

Hi Slient,

Hope your easter with your DS was fun and happy. I know what you are saying - I have gone through the stage myself. When I could feel that I was enjoying simple things again - it gave me so much courage and hope. And I'm also feeling the same way about my M. It was not all bad. In fact, we had many great memories together. Initially my STBX was also portraiting it as if we just had bad memoried, and I was almost forced to believe that, but now I know that's not true and I believe even STBX knows that we had wonderful time together too.

I am happy now many days - and am okay with the idea that I will NOT get back together with STBX. Because now I realize that he DOES have many issues, so unless he addresses them, our R will be bound to fail. And I do not want to go through the pains again. And of course there are things I need to improve too. So if we are NOT meant for each other, we will continue to walk separate paths, and I'm okay with the idea now. IF we are actually MEANT to be together, I'm sure something will happen in the future and by then we are all stronger, wiser, more considerate and more patient to each other that we'll rebuild a better relationship.

So I am okay now to think that whatever happens, it will all fall into places and that will be the best for us.

Milk

STBX called yesterday to ask me IN ADVANCE (which he never did before) if he could have DS4 over night during this coming week. In the past two years, he always called the same day (even in the afternoon or evening!) to ask, and most of the time I declined his offer, because I typically already have plans. Also it is not good that DS4 has no idea what is going to happen that day, as I usually tell him who is going to pick him up from school, whom he is going to spend evening with in the morning.

Anyway, the fact he respected my way is good, even though last time he asked for the overnight the last minute and I did not give in, he was furious. Hopefully he will continue to be more responsible and considering. One of his sisters just had a baby on Friday evening, and STBX left me a message to give me the news (but I already knew because his two other sisters had called me before him). It is kind of strange, given that I will soon to be 'nobody' to his family. But they always try to keep me in the loop because they want me to feel that I am still a part of their family. I am very grateful for that.

Happy Monday!

Strange..., and frankly, WOW. STBX left me a message yesterday which I just listened to it now. He said:

"Milk, the suspect for the Verginia Tech shooting turns out to be Asian. If anyone says anything stupid to you because of that, let me know, okay? I'll get more information on this, but definitely, be careful and let me know if anyone bothers you".

Wow. This is my old H! Of course I am NOT going back to the stage where I raise my hope and get crashed by being betrayed by WH again just because of this incident, but really, I was stunned when I listened to this. His voice, genuine concern, his willingness to protect me from the evil... that's my old H.

I do want to thank him for this, but am not sure if that's a good idea? I am NOT trying to accomplish anything here. I just feel that the right thing to do is to call or email him to at least acknowledge his message and thank him. But I've been so good without really contacting him from my end unless I need to speak to him about DS4.

Milk

The natural reaction would be to thank him.

Do you have an idea of what he would do with it if you did, or how you would feel if he turned on you again after you extended a "thanks?"
What I am trying to say is - would this help or hurt your relationship with him, and your continued interaction with him? Would he tend to take this and use it against you at some future time?
If it won't hurt, then whatever you wish.

I hope you have a good day today. Thanks for the Happy Monday - what a kind greeting.

SS

Hi SS,

I called this morning to thank him - that's how I would have done to anyone who shows such concerns, so regardless of what might or might not happen in WH's head after hearing my 'thank you', I felt I needed to be myself. He was not there (or was screening my calls, but I don't care) so I just left him a message.

Again, I'm not raising my hope or anything - but just wanted to aknowledge that he was being nice. Also I just checked one of the 40 old messages (I know, it sounds BAD - I have a voicemail which I typically check online at work, since I have ABSOLUTELY no time to check them at home after workm but my company changed its security policy and now I cannot access to my voicemail via internet, so I haven't checked them in a loooooooooooong time!), and beginning of this month when WH was ramping because I was not giving him money to pay for his taxes - it turned out that he DID call afterwards to 'apologize' to me! He said in his message "I'm calling just to say sorry - I don't want us to fight because of this". Wow! Today (even though the message was like two weeks old...) I had 2 BIG WOWS!

Milk

Milk, that sounds like good progress. I hope you feel good about sticking to what you want for DS and what YOU need.

It's nice to hear that your WH does have concern for your well-being. Your H is probably still lurking inside. Like you said, walk your line, if the two converge one day, and you are both ready, you may find each other again.

Thanks Silent, that's how I feel too. I have stopped trying to 'control' my destiny. Whatever happens must be the best plan for me.

Milk

I got email from STBX - he spent a night with DS4 yesterday. He said "you are doing a great job with DS4, mama".

Wow! I was really really happy to hear that!!!

Milk

Had lunch with friends I used to work with - it was nice out so we, five of us, sat outside. We had many silly conversations, and I was laughing so hard - I wasn't able to laugh like that two years ago - I have come a looooooooooooong way!

Have a great weekend everyone!

Milk

Laughter is a wonderful tonic for hardship.

May your weekend be kind to you.

SS

Thanks SS. It was a nice weekend.

Milk

I do so love to laugh, and am glad that I can do it again. It really is the best medicine.

Hi Silent, good to hear from you. How was your weekend with your little one? DS4 is taking a swimming lesson this spring and he is enjoying it very much. I read about you losing cool when your 4-year-old told you that he did not 'want' to clean up his mess. I lauged <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, I can so much relate to that! Thanks for the good medicine!

It's been quiet in terms of events/communications between WH and me, and he is acting like more a reasonable/rational person these days. I spoke to his mom this afternoon and she was telling me the same thing.

Last Saturday I took DS4 to his swimming class and WH picked him up from there. He looked at me and said "you look nice Milk". Two years ago, he could not even look at me in the eyes. He was always angry. Last year, we had good communication but that's because he wanted to come home for wrong reasons (financial reasons).

I honestly do not know how I am feeling about him now. I do not think I want to get back with him....., too much water under the bridge...., at the same time, when he acts more like how he used to when we were happily married, of course that reminds me of happy old days, and in a way, it immobilize me.

I wish I could just say "this is the better way for me" and be confident about my decision. Often I feel "wow, I am HAPPY again, and actually my life will probably be much better going forward without WH..." Then when my soon-to-be MIL said "your closing with WH...." comment DID make me sad. Also like I said, a few positive comments from WH make me feel nostalgic.

I guess what I think will make me feel very sad in the future is, probably not so much of losing WH or our original marriage anymore...., but the fact I will always remember H, the man I stayed for so many years with, in a special way (possibly in a very much skewed way too). I hope I will NOT compare any men I meet in the future to my STBX, but I KNOW I will. How can I not? And I know that's not fair to anyone. I will NOT say anything about that, but inside me, I will probably feel "xH would have done this or said that...". Guess STBX will always have some advantage in that regard.

Milk

I will try to take Chrisner's train of thought. My WH was in my life for quite a long time, and when he was in it, we were beautiful together. I will choose to remember this, when I'm far enough away from all of this, I will choose to look on our M with a kind eye. I will have learned many life lessons and will be happy. I know I will.

I believe that I will live a pseudo PLAN B with WH forever, as I do so love him, I will need the detachment for myself. I think, once I move on and find someone or something else to take up my interest and love, I will be able to relax a bit more.

could your H be seeing his way through the fog just a little?

Silent, yes that's true, I'm glad at least I have a 'sweet' memory that I can look back fondly. And indeed I have learned a lot. I have come a long way, and have detached myself from the drama for the most part now. It took me 3 years.

Now I am dating and it is wonderful. I do not want to get too serious yet, but it is nice to have someone who can be on the same page. Yes it is ironic that now STBX seems to be getting some of his old 'H' back to himself, but maybe because I don't depend on him emotionally anymore our relationship (as parents of DS) has improved too. I do feel that in the future I can maintain good relationships with STBX and his family, after our D, and can even count on them if I need any help for DS4. I am pretty sure they will give that to me without hesitation, and I will help them too whenever I can with their kids and dogs, etc. It will be strange, but maybe in the future STBX and I may get together with our own new spouses, who knows. Or, of course it is possible that STBX and I end up getting back together, but I try not to think about that too much.

Eav, I don't know what is in WH's mind. It's possible, and his attitude certainly supports this theory, but like I said, I feel, at least at this point, that we NEED to get over with our divorce. It's been going on way too long, and that's just not healthy for any of us. It's like a kid whose last piece of candy gets taken away - unless that really happens, he doesn't understand how it feels like it. And we, both STBX and I, may feel 'fine' after our divorce. We may feel that that was in the end better. I really don't know. Of course it would be great if we can create a wonderful marriage again together, but can we really? I forgave him and I think he forgave me too but I cannot 'forget'. He cannot forget. And we both have not-so-optimal anger management skills. Maybe this combination is not promising...

Life is whole a lot stranger and unpredictable than I though for sure....

Milk

OK, off the subject but I have a serious question to all female members here. Do you get sever mood swings before you get your period?

Before the whole D thing happened, I of course was aware of my PMS symptoms including mood swings, specifically irritability. But over the past three years, my emotions were everywhere regardless of the cycle of the month.

Now things seem calmer and normal, I just realized that I've been very irritable lately...., and boom, realized that I was PMSing. Do you get sort of depressed too? Is there any way to control the mood swings?

Milk

Milk,

DEFINITELY!!! I have severe mood swings, especially become a bit more depressed for about 3 days prior to the onset of my period.

I've posted this before, myself. I don't really know of anything for the mood swing; I haven't been able to find anything. Sometimes, deverting your attention to something pleasant can be helpful, but it doesn't last. Sometimes I just tell myself to ride the storm out.

So I'm not the only one...GOOD. But I really hate to go through this cycle each month...., as the bad cycle (bad mood) lasts for several days!! Geez...

Oh yes, definitely!! Wait till you hit the menopause. I was launched into it in a major way when I discovered my FWH's EA - even worse when I discovered it was a PA. Not fun.

oh....., I would have never imagined that, but geez, I can see how painful and crazy it must have felt to deal with your FWH while you were dealing with your own internal changes......

I told my guy friend "see, you guys are lucky that you don't have to go through this", and got this in reply "no, I think you women are lucky". I laughed. Guys should have great understanding that we can get a bit evil and edgy every month....., could that be one of the keys to maintaining a successful relationship?

Milk

Well, I think my mood swings were a combination of the A and the peri-menopause to start with. Now I think they are more meno related. I found a terrific menopause support website which made me realise that I wasn't alone and that all my symptoms were normal. It's getting better now.

Can't believe I was feeling that irritated last week. By Friday evening, I felt GREAT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It was a gorgeous weekend and DS4 and I spent a lot of time outside playing.

I haven't posted in a while - nothing much to update. I haven't heard anything back from my lawyer regarding our agreement (I have made the second around corrections/changes and send it back to him about 3 weeks ago), and sent him a follow-up email yesterday. A part of me does not want to finalize it, obviously, but at the same time a part of me does not want to stay in this limbo stage.

You are fine otherwise?

SS

Milk, nice to hear from you. The limbo can be great for your Lattisimus Dorsi and Glutius Maximus ,but it can be a pain in the glutius Maximus, too.

Thanks SS and Silent to stop by. I'm fine, SS, I'm worried about my job (because of the pending acquisition and uncertainty about our job security) and a bit nervous about the finality of our marriage, but in general, I am doing pretty well. And Silent, ha ha, you are right, the limbo can cause quite a bit of pain <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To be honest, I wonder if I would feel better after D gets finalized because I can 'focus' on my new relationship - and it may turn into something very serious and long-term...., but I am also quite frankly nervous when I think of my future, which will be COMPLETELY different from what I thought it would be when I married STBX once D is finalized and I establish a serious relationship. A part of me says "wait, should marriage be THIS easy to lose and gain? I dated STBX 3 years before we got married, and yet there were things I did NOT know about him....., how would I know that my new b.f. would not have any serious issues like that, only after dating him for a short while???"

It's kind of scary.

Milk

You are in a better position to "see" what a new person really is. You didn't know what to look for the first time. I realize you don't know everything now either, but you know much, much more.

I also recommend prayer. God knows things that we do not know. My W was going to tell me "no" but she says after much prayer, she felt she should marry. It has worked out well over time.

SS

Hey Milk ! Saw your note to me on Eav's thread and finally have a chance to say hello and "catch up" with you.
Haven't posted for awhile but am trying to get updated on some of the threads I always followed, especially friends and "kindred spirits" like yourself !

I'm still doing the travel job, working from home, and it's been going well. There's been alot of "turnover" lately in the company, causing us to be short-handed and busy, but I was pleased that my boss (the owner) has recognized and thanked me for my extra efforts and I received a bit of a raise a couple weeks ago. Still not terrific pay, but it certainly helps !
I've really enjoyed my singing group and my friends there, and will miss them over the summer. This has been a busy week as we are preparing for a concert this weekend, so have two dress rehearsals in addition to our normal night of rehearsal. After the concert, we will be "on break" until the fall.

My house is still for sale (5 months now)and I still have very mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I know it is bigger than I need resulting in higher utility bills, taxes,
more maintenance and cleaning ,etc. On the other hand, I love the house, the floor plan, all the work and effort we put into it, the area, and the familiarity of it and my neighborhood. If I could afford it, I think I'd try to stay here for at least awhile, but just can't swing it unless I get a higher paying job or second job. I do feel some real resentment towards WH, sitting across town in his "fancy"
house, buying another to "flip" (renovate and sell for a profit) and not a worry in the world about money, when I'm
on a tight budget and can't keep my home. He does have to pay towards the house expenses until it sells, so at least I am not being drained while it's for sale.

My ankle is doing well. I got out of my cast in Feb. and did some home physical therapy. Went back for a follow up i March and the Dr was pleased with everything, releasing me from further visits unless I have a problem and "clearing" me for all activities except "high impact". I've resumed walking the dog, have ridden the stationary bike, and do feel like it's stronger now, have a little bit of swelling but no pain.

The D was final about two months ago. Was glad WH was at least reasonable in waiting a little longer than he wanted to to turn in the final paperwork in order to make sure I had insurance coverage for my surgery and afterwards, as it only took FOUR DAYS after it was filed to be signed and finalized ! I was expecting a couple weeks or more, so it was quite a shock to get the paperwork in the mail so soon.
Our state is "no fault" and basically "50/50", so with no kids and our property already divided (done back when he moved out last year) there was little to do and no court- it was just signed by a "magistrate". Very sad that it is over and done so easily. Do have to say WH was reasonable and actually more "generous" than he had to be, although
I'd guess that was partly due to guilt or him trying to act like he's not a "bad guy". (That, plus he makes about 5 times what I do, so not that hard on him).
I have bad and good days, definitely feel sad, and still have those moments wondering "why" or "how" this happened,
where the wonderful times and person I married went to, why my life is like this and so far from what I wanted or ever expected. I think that's the hardest thing- feeling like I
have really gone "backwards", rather than forwards in life.
It's very frustrating to realize I had a better job, more
money and a much happier life years ago, and that I'm now in my 40's, making a small income, not able to afford a nice home, didn't get to have any kids, and have nothing to "show" for the past 15 years of my life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I had to deal some with WH in the final paperwork and since we still have the house and some other joint financial issues but don't talk to him much and see him rarely.
I believe he is still seeing OW and that they are still in the same pattern of "breaking up/making up" every few months as they have been all throughout the A. He finished the court ordered counseling (from the DUI last year) but says himself it was "a waste of time" so sounds like he just went but didn't make any effort. He is also still on meds and seeing the Psych for his bipolar, but don't know how well that's going...

I do still go to my IC and for the most part friends and family have been pretty helpful and supportive, although as is probably common, people have sometimes not know what to say or do and have made some comments or suggestions I felt were inappropriate and a little offensive- like saying I should have a big party to "celebrate" the D and "being rid of WH", and even suggesting I should get out to meet men and find a new person (this before I was even divorced !)
There's definitely NOT anyone I'm interested in, and I have
NO desire whatsoever to "get out", date or get involved with anyone anytime, or at least not for a LONG time, but I know people meant well and didn't get upset, just said "NO thanks!" My IC suggests healing after D takes about 1 year for each 5 years you were married, which in my case would be about 2 years, so maybe by then I will change my mind..!

I've not got to read all your recent posts, but thought that you were sounding strong and hope you and D4 are doing well. I'll keep an eye out for you and post again -
Just realized I'm still using "WH" rather than XH. Guess that's just still a little too tough.
Slammed

Thanks SS, I do hope that I have 'learned' something through this horrible and painful experience and I am a little bit wiser when it comes to relationships and 'people' in general. Although a part of me still screams from time to time - "but WH WAS a nice guy, he DID act like he was totally in love with me, and he still IS not a bad person....., yet our marriage did not last. How on earth can I tell that I can now build a better / stronger relationship with someone with whom I don't really have any history???" Yes, I did lose quite a bit of confidence in my 'intuition' or 'six sense' or 'gut feeling' or whatever you call it, when meeting someone new.

Slammed, I am very happy to hear from you again. I am in the same boat - I do have bad days still sometimes, although now much less. I do get sad when I start asking 'why' and 'how' like you do. So usually I try to stop it right away. No one - even STBX - probably can answer this in a way I would understand.

Yesterday I spoke to STBX and he was telling me that he had a job offer (he did tell me several times recently that he wanted to change his job...., yes again). Then he said "it will be a little more money, so you will benefit from that".

He could have hidden the fact that he would be making more money - since we have our agreement, if he didn't say anything and it gets approved (and thus D being finalized), the only way for me to get more money from him would be to file another petition for adjustment for his salary increase, which will cost quite a bit and probably won't make sense to get just a tiny bit of increase.

See, so I tend to look at things like this as "WH is not a bad guy, after all, he is NOT that greedy....", which of course makes me sadder about our D being finalized....

Although I have decided NOT to look back anymore....., whatever happened is in the past and I will try my best to leave it in the past. I have learned quite a bit through this experience, and I do not want that to be wasted...., besides people keep telling me that things do happen for reasons....., so our marriage not working out must have some kind of reasons too, which I can only find out if I keep moving forward with confidence.

So yesterday I was feeling a bit sad again, but tried to pick myself up again.....holding my head high......, at least I know that I did everything in my power to save our marriage, just like you Slammed. So I am very proud of that, and I do not have regret in that area. I do think that will make a BIG difference going forward....., that we did NOT run away from it!

Milk

I had a pretty good Mother's Day. DS4 gave me a flower plant he was growing at school and a card. He also wraped about everything and anything he found around the house (my book, photo frame, candle, etc.) and gave them to me saying proudly "Happy Mother's Day!". He also insisted that I buy jewery when we were out shopping, saying "Mama, you NEED to buy this, it's beautiful, it's very beautiful for you" - I said "thank you sweetie, but I don't need it", and he kept putting it back in my shopping basket, so I finally told him "no, I don't have money", then he said "ok, I will buy it for you then". That was very funny. Then he put it in my basket so proudly. He has some real currency from overseas - left over from my and my friends' trips - as well as fake million dollar bills. I had to pretend buying it - I winked at the cashier and she understood and played along. Later he asked for the box of ring, and I said "oh, it must be somewhere but we'll find it later". Then he forgot about it. Hew.

I just checked my voicemail from the weekend in the office this morning, and there was one from STBX. He wished me a happy mother's day, and said "you are a very good mother to DS4...". That was nice.

Hope everyone had a nice mother's day!

Milk

I think I have already accepted that our marriage is over. I have accepted that STBX will not be a part of my life anymore going forward. It does not make me TOO sad anymore. ALSO, I need to remember that he DOES have many mental issues and they will NOT just go away easily.

I am happy most of the times now. Yet, two things that make me feel sad still.... (1) of course DS4. Whenever he asks about his daddy or seems he envies other kids because they have daddy....., I always almost cry. Then (2) when I feel that STBX does or will soon have a GF.....

There is no basis to believe that (2) is the case. And since most of the time I don't even think about it, I am fine. But when I think about it, I still don't feel good about it. Is this normal?

I don't know what it is. If I have moved on, and I am fine without STBX, you would think I should be fine with the idea of him finding someone else. I certainly want HIM to become happy, that's for sure. I don't want my son's father to remain depressed. BUT when I think of him going to his family gathering with his new GF and possibly with DS4 as well - I don't like the picture. Am I being too jealous? Would this feeling ever go away? Or, because we were married and even had a child together...., this 'special' feeling will always be there somewhere in my heart?

Milk,

I am not sure that this will ever entirely go away. I know that I fought so hard for Ex WW for our children because being the sane one at the time I knew what the ramifications would be and tried to warn her but she didn't want to hear it. It didn't fit into her fantasy. Now she's an EOW mother, my step daughter is separated from her little brother except during ex WW's visitation or when she visits with me. Pain is all I feel when I think that it didn't have to be this way. Plus we had a good marriage and great family life before she went insane and becamse selfish and entitled. This makes it all the more difficult to shoulder.

She will soon marry old, POS, OM (his D will be final this summer). I have had to accept this. BUT, I will not and have told her that I will not legitimize her R with OM so that she can feel better. I still have not seen him since the trial on Aug. 31, 2006 and for his sake I hope I don't. He will never be anything in my son's life but an intruder, that's it. She can have a great R with our son if she choses but OM will never be accepted or legitimized if I can help it.

I am going to post something that I posted on another site about the levels of infidelity that may be fun forum discussion.

Hang in there and love that dear boy.

I don't know the answer to your last question, but something in your tone has got me choked up. Those thoughts. I've had those thoughts. It's just a hard situation to be in. When I hear you mention that you are moving ahead and okay with the D, EXCEPT for when DS asks about daddy, my heart sinks. I know those questions, and the feelings I had when my DS's life started flashing before my eyes, with a part time daddy, it would just break me down.

I know you are growing and moving forward, and i think you deserve a lot of praise for how you have handled all of this. I just wanted to send a little hug your way.

(((((Milk)))))

Thanks HAP and Silent. Your kind words mean a lot to me. I think STBX will always have a spot in my heart. The spot may get smaller over time, but it will not disappear entirely. After all, we were together for almost 17 years (including, though, the shaky past 3 years).

My son is also happy most of the time. I think he has accepted that 'daddy' lives in his apartment. He doesn't ask about that anymore. But I know he wishes that he could spend time with BOTH of us at the same time, rather than one at a time...

Unfortunately I cannot change the fact DS4 will grow up in a divorced family. I never imagined my child will go through this. Neither of us (me or STBX) grew up in the divorced family, and I feel so bad that our little innocent son has to learn to live with something we didn't have to deal with. It's just so not fair.

But I am praying that this experience will somehow give DS4 strength and wisdom, and teach him the importance of commitment. You choose to marry, you WILL make it work. I hope he will not become a quitter.

HAP, I am so sorry for your sitch. Your WW's action resulted in a breakup between a sister and brother. And she doesn't care, because her needs come first. My friend went through the same thing. He is a very kind hearted and dedicated father. He raised both kids (his step son and their son), because his wife was always out playing. Now they are divorced (she had an affair), he was depressed for a long time but luckily, he ended up having two boys a lot more often than he thought he would. Because his wife is too busy taking care of 'her' needs. You never know, HAP, that might happen to you over time. We all have to make the best out of whatever given to us I guess...

I read your recent development Silent. I heard that your FWH is turning around and working on marriage. That's so WONDERFUL. I am really happy for you all. You have maintained your strength, dignity, and most of all, love. I am so happy that all of your work has paid off.

My case is slightly different, I guess, because of WH's personal issues and how he grew up (he was raised by his step mom because his biological mom passed away when he was not even 2). All of his sisters and brother have similar issues (depression, addictions, lack of responsibility, laziness, ADHD, etc.), so my case is not just infidelity based breakdown, it's rather much deeper, unfortunately. So it did not work out the way we all hoped. But if I believe (and I do now) things happen for reasons, this must have happen because in the long run this is best for all of us. WH loves DS4 but is never responsible around him. I think DS4 also has ADHD, and it might have been disastrous to be raised by another ADHD parent. He DOES behave differently when he was surrounded by my friends who are more stable. So maybe this was good for his development. I also have much less stressful life since WH moved out. I don't have to get frustrated about how I do everything being totally exhausted while WH is just playing a computer game all day long.

So I have been reasoning myself lately, whenever I have those 'sad' moments. I wish I was a little wiser and chose a man who was as nice as H used to be, but also who was mentally strong. Then either none of our issues have happened in the first place, OR even if they did, we could have recovered. And there are reasons for all of these events. At the same time, if I didn't marry WH, I would not have had our beautiful boy, so I would not trade it for anything.

Yesterday I received a copy of our final agreement. Once we both agreed on it and signed, it will be entered.

Milk

Milk,

When we meet, when we are young, we don't consider what our backgrounds and upbringing will do to/for us in the future. You couldn't have known that your WH would have reacted as he has to the responsibility of life.

My FWH did not have a stellar upbringing, his adoptive mother (grandmother) cheated on his adoptive father (grandfather) and took WH along with her as a cover story. Eventually, my FWH told his father about his mother's trysts. That's just not a good lesson for a child, not to mention that his parents fought a lot and never really achieved recovery. Then his mother became ill (ALS) and slowly the disease took her life away, bit by bit. His father eventually succombed to lung cancer, leaving him to take care of EVERYTHING at the age of 19.

FWH's natural mother gave him up to her parents because she couldn't handle it, but then proceeded to remarry and start another family (that can't feel too good). His father was absent--gone. He killed himself about a year before his natural mother succombed to complications due to alcoholism (cirrhosis, kidney failure, heart failure).

The reason I tell you all of this, is to show that no matter what your upbringing is, you can overcome that stuff. My FWH had affairs, and I think that part of the reason was to run away from the pain he was experiencing and the down place our M was. Now, WH recognizes that he has problems of his own to DEAL with, that running away is not going to make him happy. I hope that he can do it, for all of our sake, but especially for himself. Maybe your WH will, eventually, see that same light and want more of it. If only for his son's sake...

I know those final papers are weighing heavily on you, but, Milk, you are doing a fantastic job, and you will be able to let go more and more, and you will be happy. I dreaded D for my DS sake, but I knew that I would step up, so I was angry, and worried about his future, but I was ready to do what I had to.

Wow, thanks Silent for sharing your story. That sounds worse than WH's (although he had many problems in the family too it seems - alcoholism, sexual abuse - although he does not remember it, his therapist said WH must have been sexually abused when he was little), and in a way it gives me hope in a sense that people with really hard upbringing can still make a right choice and overcome those issues. WH was always running away from his issues, and while he sounds much better (a bit healthier), he just changed his jobs again, for like 11 times over the past 15 1/2 years. That, to me, still shows that he is running away rather than standing up to 'fight'. He always told me that his 'boss' ticked him off - yeah, as if he is the innocent victim who happened to ALWAYS have bad bosses....for more than a decade......

Anyway, I do hope WH will someday see the light at the end of the tunnel and learns how to be responsible and also to be strong. But I will not hold my breath - if that really happens, I will be happy for him and also for DS4, but I am sure it will be too late for me to want him back, and if that never happens, that is fine, then really our D would have been a good idea in the end for all of us.

You are a very strong person Silent....., your FWH and son are very lucky to have you.

Milk

Just when I thought we will be wraping up our D filing with peace....., WH is MAD, AGAIN, just because he has to share DS4's future college costs. Also, apparently he called a couple of times yesterday but DS4 and I were out..., and when he finally called my cell, I didn't hear it (it was in my purse) and missed the call. He was yelling in his message saying that this is 'Bull sxxx" that I am not answering my phones and he 'NEEDS TO SPEAK TO HIS SON'.

Last night then he called like 4 times within 5 minutes (first my home phone, then home phone again 12 seconds later, then my cell, and then my home phone again). DS4 and I were already in bed (it was 10:15pm), but I figured it must be WH and if I don't answer or call back he might just keep calling, harrassing me...., so I called back. He was pissed!

Anyway, then he brought up the issue of DS4's college fund and he refused to contribute. Then he said "fine, then I am going to fight - I will talk to my lawyer and this deal is off!".

How many more months or years do I need to go through this...??? And I also realized how long I have been naive and blinded about WH's true personality...., which made me sad and also feel pretty stupid to be honest. How could I believe in this man for such a long time? He REALLY didn't love me for a long time, yet kept telling me stuff I wanted to hear just because he was scared to be alone and also he needed my financial support. I thought he truly loved and needed me. How naive is that.

So needless to say I wasn't feeling all that great this morning. I might be lacking EQ a big time......

Milk

Just when I thought we will be wrapping up our D filing with peace....., WH is MAD, AGAIN, just because he has to share DS4's future college costs. Also, apparently he called a couple of times yesterday but DS4 and I were out..., and when he finally called my cell, I didn't hear it (it was in my purse) and missed the call. He was yelling in his message saying that this is 'Bull sxxx" that I am not answering my phones and he 'NEEDS TO SPEAK TO HIS SON'.

Last night then he called like 4 times within 5 minutes (first my home phone, then home phone again 12 seconds later, then my cell, and then my home phone again). DS4 and I were already in bed (it was 10:15pm), but I figured it must be WH and if I don't answer or call back he might just keep calling, harassing me...., so I called back. He was pissed!

Anyway, then he brought up the issue of DS4's college fund and he refused to contribute. Then he said "fine, then I am going to fight - I will talk to my lawyer and this deal is off!”

How many more months or years do I need to go through this...??? And I also realized how long I have been naive and blinded about WH's true personality...., which made me sad and also feel pretty stupid to be honest. How could I believe in this man for such a long time? He REALLY didn't love me for a long time, yet kept telling me stuff I wanted to hear just because he was scared to be alone and also he needed my financial support. I thought he truly loved and needed me. How naive is that.

So needless to say I wasn't feeling all that great this morning. I might be lacking EQ a big time......

Milk

Ooops, I accidentally posted twice.....

save all ugly messages

you may need them in the future

and.....

SCREEN all his calls ... NEVER pick up if you think he is pissed

on purpose try and get him to leave voice messages

YOU never leave anything less than adult-calm factual messages on his machine

got it?

Thanks Pepperband. I talked to several friends yesterday and I managed to calm myself down.

I was doing pretty well, by mainly exchanging emails with him, but he just started his new job (this is his 12th or 13th times he changed his jobs over the past 16 years or so), and I don't have his new email address.

Anyway, I left him a message yesterday asking for his new contact info, so I should be getting it shortly. Then I will just document everything..., for the legal reasons but also to maintain my sanity.

Last night WH called to speak to DS4 and he kept asking what we did over the weekend and who we spent our time with. Also STBX asked the 4-year-old 6 times (!) if he loves and misses his daddy. It was amazing how much validation he needs...., in the end, DS4 yelled "Papa, I SAID I love you and miss you already!" Also STBX was telling him how he had a 'long' day at his new job...., why is he telling all this to the little one? We are supposed to protect the little one, but STBX is almost relying on DS4 for validation, support, love, etc. Weird and sad.

Geez!

It's the wayward mentality, as long as everything is working in their favor, and they look good, and can continue to talk to their STBX, well, all is well
Throw that monkey wrench in of him needing to help put HIS SON through college, and WHAMMO--he becomes an alien idiot.

Still on that rollercoaster. I agree with Pep--there is no need to answer the phone when he is in a tizzy, let him leave a message, this is HIS mess, don't help him AT ALL. Do a pseudo Plan B, something akin to what Orchid talks about, talk to the spouse, but cut the WS off at the pass.

The conversations he is having with your DS are absurd. I can't recall ever talking to my DS about my long day at work (like he cares) or asking him if he loves me (bad form). He even frustrated a four year old enough for your DS to stop his dad in his tracks with his statement about ALREADY saying I love you. Sick. Twisted.

Have you considered that maybe your WH is attempting to stall things because he is twisting in the wind? Makes sense to me.

(((((Milkshake)))))

Thanks Silent. I know, it's pretty pitiful that a 38 year old man NEEDS to hear his 4-year-old say "I love you" like 10 times each day and if he doesn't, WH forces him to say it. He always asks "do you miss me, DS4?", and DS4 is now acting more mature and replies "of course I miss you", which apparently helps ease WH's insecurity. Looking back, WH used to do this with me. He used to ask me if I loved him and missed him. WH has always been insecure.

Last night when WH was talking to DS4, he said something like "my new insurance premium will be much higher" or something, but I didn't really respond to that. As if he suffers. I have been paying for DS4 and my medical insurance ALONE ever since he was born. My mortgage is 5 times higher than WH's rent. I am paying for DS4's daycare costs all by myself. And our salary differential is NOT that great. Yet WH cannot pay a small amount each month (by the way, the amount I requested is so small that my friends thought I was joking - obviously EVEN IF we both contribute this amount each month, it will not be enough to cover DS4's college costs in 14 years)? He goes out and buys a fancy motorcycle. He goes out every weekend, spending hundreds of dollars on drinks, and yet he cannot pay only a fraction of it for his son? But he claims he loves DS4 so much and needs DS4 to say the same to him over the phone? It's just so twisted, childish, selfish, and insane.

Each time he changed his jobs, he always blamed his bosses. They 'don't understand' HIM, according to him. They do not appreciate him. They piss him off, etc.

I just keep praying that DS4 will not grow up to be the kind of person who blames everyone else but himself for whatever the mistakes, unhappiness, dissatisfaction, etc.

Milk, have you also thought about having the lawyers hash the rest of this out; you ask for what you want and WH asks for what he wants and you let the courts decide. It sounds to me that the courts would probably award you MORE money than you are asking for.

I can understand just wanting the D to be final, everything ironed out, so you can move on, but if your WH bounces back with some retort every time you attempt to finalize something for your son, there is no sense in talking anymore. You can attempt an amicable divorce, as long as, seemingly, you are willing to give in on almost everything. If his salary matches yours, he needs to put up or shut up, IMO.

Despite all of this mess, lady, how are you, these days?

Your WH sounds exactly like my dad. Except for a few hundred dollars each year for special events like summer camp, my mom never really got any child support (this as all long before the state started stepping in). She had to sue and pay for the divorce on her own. Visitation was limited to the few times a year that he'd drive down from another city or state and take my brother and I to dinner or brunch. Maybe a week out of the summer when we'd go see him. Yet he always had a new Cadillac in the driveway, regardless of how his current fly-by-night job or business was doing.

My brother is a doc now and he said that he's tried to identify our dad's pathology. If you ever figure your WH out, will you let me know? I bet it would apply to my dad as well.

Well, my dad was an alcoholic, who could probably barely hold a job, much less his head up. He never gave child support and I have never seen him. I've only seen one pic of him, and that was from the late 60's. He passed away when I was about 19(?). I can't remember. This is probably one of many reasons that I was and am so protective of DS. He should not have to pay for either mine or PWC's mistakes. Of course, I was living with a clear mind...

SD - sorry, I was replying to milkshake. The description of her WH sounds eerily like my dad. One thing about my old man, alcohol was never a problem. His dysfunction was all his - no external stimuli necessary.

Wow, a lot of similar stories. WH is not alcoholic but he was addicted to marijuana and sex/porn. He does not remember but apparently he was sexually abused when he was a child. His step mom had a drinking problem, and all of his sisters/brother have/had drinking/sex/drug addictions. Actually WH was among the least broken - or so we thought. His brother tried to kill himself when he was in college. His sister has been on Prozac since she was in college. But now they are doing okay (they still have many issues, but on the surface they seem to be doing fine), whereas WH is in a big mess. He cannot hold a job, even though he has a master’s degree. He is full of anger. He is so irresponsible. He comes first, the end of the story. AND he can be so charming that he can manipulate others quite easily.

Seabird, I don't think I can figure him out - I don't think he even understands himself.

Milkshake,

I think you would find reading the "The sociopath next door" interesting reading. Your WH sounds like a fit.

Hang in there, protect yourself and your son by all means necessary.

Thanks for your suggestion HAP. It's interesting, a good friend of mine whose xH is the sociopath told me the same thing. Initially I was like "nah", but the more I learn about this and look back how WH has ALWAYS acted around me and his family, it became obvious that he was NOT acting cute and charming just to please us - that is how he ALWAYS got his ways. And it's all about him. And my understanding is that is what sociopath is.....

Yep, pretty similar. I've always classified my dad as a sociopath. My brother doesn't necessarily agree, but he won't tell me that I'm wrong either. He's a doc. He's clinical and won't make any sort of armchair diagnosis.

I know that my dad has a thing for porn and the first thing he asked my oldest sister when she set him up online was how to find stuff like that. My sister... His D for crying out loud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He was in the Navy in WW2. He entered young at 15 and I have heard that he was sexually assaulted by a shipmate. His mother was pretty crazy as well and her M with his dad was about as toxic as it can get.

My dad is also very charming and extremely intelligent. He makes a great first impression and people always walk away thinking he's great. After they get to know him and see his selfishness, the migrate away from him. He's only had two close friendships that I know of and both men were just like him. Those friendships were usually pretty long distance as well, so they didn't step on each others' toes too much. He also jumped from job to job and business idea to business idea. He's had some great concepts and could have been very successful, but he always managed to sabotage himself. And blame everyone else. I don't think I EVER heard him admit to being wrong or even offering a sincere apology. For anything.

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack. I was just stunned by the similarities. Enough to really make me think that there is a defined pathology of some sort at work here. Too many coincidences.

OMG, I can't believe how similar your dad sounds to my STBX! STBX is exactly the same. He looks very honest, pure, intelligent, etc., so he does pretty well at interviews. He is smart for real, but his selfishness must prevent him from doing well at work - then he always managed to destroy his own career advancement opportunities. Then he blames everyone else but himself. He has also come up with many business ideas as well. But he is lazy (because he is selfish and irresponsible, if he does not feel like doing something, he won't do it), so nothing gets accomplished. He also just lies, lies, lies – he lies so casually that I’m sure he now believes them.

I do believe that he loves his son. But love comes with hard work too, and that is the part he doesn't understand. He only wants the fun or easy part. He does not mind buying DS4 toys, because then DS4 will be happy to come see his dad. Also it's easier to entertain a 4-year-old when you have toys. He does not want to spend a day outside teaching his son how to ride a bike without training wheels or how to swim or how to play baseball or anything that requires him a lot of time and efforts. He says he wants his son to go to college and become successful, yet he does not want to contribute to DS4's 529 plan, because that's hard and not fun. He rather has his fancy motorcycle or buys himself more toys to entertain himself.

He was seeing IC for his sex addiction, but he stopped going last year. I am not sure if he still watches porn on TV or computer. He is still taking Prozac - it's been almost 3 years.

I have mixed feelings hearing your story Seabird. I feel sad to hear what has happened to your dad and how that impacted his marriage, his family, and YOU. I can’t believe your dad asked your sister (!!) about porn. That’s so sick. At the same time I feel happy to learn that despite of having had a dad who was/is a sociopath; it sounds like all the kids (you, your brother and sisters) came out okay. This is a very encouraging piece of information, really. Because I am secretly very concerned of my son. When he lies about typical kids stuff, say having one more piece of candy than he was allowed – because of my traumatic experience with WH, I get terrified. I know DS4 is just being a kid, but I tend to overreact sometimes. I feel like “oh my God, DS4 already started to lie – just like his father!” So everyday I am reminding myself “kids will be kids” because I do not want to overreact too much that it scares DS4 and he won’t tell me the truth anymore. At the same time, I always tell DS4 how lying is not good he should feel safe telling me everything. I try not to judge or even make comments sometimes, and I just listen. When I patiently listen to DS4’s stories, he tends to calm down or behave more reasonably.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your stories Seabird. Would you say having gone through what you went through as a child, you have become stronger and wiser?

Milk

Milkshake - thank you for the nice comments. I will relate to you first what my mother says. She feels that my brother and I are two of the most moral people she knows. Compared to my dad, it may not be much (LOL!), but I do think she is relieved that we didn't turn out like him. That we didn't seem to inherent whatever pathology that afflicts him. I am the youngest of 4; my sisters are 16 and 15 years older than me (when he asked her about the porn on the internet, she was already well into her 40s), and my brother is almost 7 years older than me. There is quite a difference in age between us. My mom and dad split up when I was still very young. Matter of fact, I have no memory of them together as a married couple. He was in sales and traveled a lot too, so even when they were together, he wasn't around much.

My mom was his 2nd of 3 wives. While they were together, he had 2 PAs; the first was a ONS while he was on the road, and the second was a long-term with my mom's supposed best friend that went on for years. It was a different time then and my mom chose to stay blind to it for a long time.

Occasionally I would make my mom's hair stand up because I would exhibit a mannerism of my dad's. Not just behavior, but maybe an inflection in my voice, or the way I'd sit in a chair. This scared her because I wasn't around him enough to have "learned" it. Some things are inherited genetically, and she was never sure just what and how much I might have inherited. I think she kept a very close eye on me basically up until I moved out.

If you don't mind, I will offer you my perspective as it might help you to see your son's future direction... As a child I felt the loss of his presence. Again, it was a different time and kids from divorced homes were a minority. Also, my mom didn't make much money and so there weren't too many extras. We got by and always had food and clothes, but our budget was painfully obvious to me. Also, my dad moved to another city and I think I mentioned that visiting with him I could count on one hand each year with fingers to spare. Most of my family thinks that their D was easiest on me because I was spared his abuse, and didn't feel the separation as acutely because I never really bonded with him in the first place.

I would say their assumptions are too simple. The fact of the matter is, I missed having a dad around. Maybe not MY dad, but I missed having a dad. I thought that as I got older, the sense of loss would wane - and for a long time it did. Until I had kids of my own. Father's Day to me still seems alien and I'm still not even sure what day it is. If I have any ultimately goal in life, it's to be a better father to my kids than mine was to me. I'm not usually one to find insight or profundity in songs, but one that really gets to me is Everclear's "Father of Mine". You can read the lyrics here if you want to. It isn't an exact reflection of my experience, but the sentiments is pretty damn close.

Your STBX can't hide his nature and unless he changes himself fundamentally, his R with his children isn't going to be a good one. His selfishness and poor choices will affect them eventually and they will reach the age where they will recognize it and withdraw from him. He's digging his own grave with his behavior.

So to finally answer your question directly... Older and wiser? I hoped so, but now my W seems intent to D me, so I know that I've still been making mistakes. I hope the difference between him and me is that I am honestly trying to recognize them and change them. It might be too late for my W, but I have to do it for the sake of my R with my kids. I just have to.

STBX came to pick up DS4 on Sat morning. He asked me if I am seeing anyone. I said "I don't really think that's your business...", of course what I REALLY wanted to say was "YOU wanted out, YOU pushed me away thousand times, YOU filed, then YOU wanted to come back last year just because YOU needed my financial support - then we did the MC again, but YOU decided YOU wanted out again....., and I again asked if there is any chance of us reconciling and YOU made it clear that YOU have no intention...!!!". But I controlled myself. He then asked "do you want to get back together?"

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??? Why does he keep doing this? As long as I look sad and unhappy, he tells me nasty things and makes me feel so guilty as if all of his mental issues and nasty habits were caused by our unhappy marriage. Then soon as I start to look happy again without him (like last year and also this year), he wants to shake things up again so that I would be vulnerable again. Last year I wanted to believe that something DID change inside him and he wanted to come home. But quickly I realized that it was not the case. He only wanted to use me and my money. He was not really willing to make any adjustments or improvements on his end. Still I began to raise my hope..., and of course, that's when he turned around and said "no, actually I don't want to reconcile, I want to continue our D process". I felt betrayed again. He started to push me away again, saying that he WAS feeling lonely and weak, which made him want to come back but it was not because he wanted his family back - which hurt me a lot. He probably got a sense of satisfaction by seeing me being hurt again.

Then I recovered from that again...., luckily, this time it took much shorter than the first time. He did not like that, and he wanted to shake things up again so began saying things here and there that he thought would hurt me. I was hurt, but did not show that. I think he was hoping that I would start begging him again not to divorce, but I didn't. Now he realized that I am seeing someone and happy. My schedule is full, and I have a lot of great and supportive friends. I am happy. So he had to say something so that my happiness would not last.

When I kind of shook my head, he seemed surprised. He said "NO???" As if he could not understand that I would say 'no' to his idea of reconciliation. But frankly, what has he done to make up for his numerous EAs, addictions, lack of responsibility and lies??? None!

I would have been naive, if none of this happened - I would have thought "oh, STBX misses me and loves me still", and I would have fallen for him again, without demanding him anything in return. But now I see a certain pattern. STBX continues to do this. Whenever he wants something, he acts cute and says things, but he does not mean them. Or he never makes efforts to keep his words or initiate something. Never!

If he truly misses his family, he would have showed up on time to pick up DS4 in the first place, but of course he was late as usual. He would have done something that takes efforts and considerations, something I and DS4 would appreciate. But he continues to just use 'words', and no actions. It's sad.

Read that book I suggested...........

See what WH would say to finalizing the D (FAIRLY) AND then dating to where a R might go (of course with advance notice that a pre nup would be in place in the event of any future remarriage). My bet is that he runs away as fast as he can. I hope that I am wrong but he sounds like a manipulator, a User of people.

Hang in there.

Thanks HAP. That's a very interesting idea. Let's get D anyway, and if WE both want to date to see if we can improve our R, we can do so after D....., I wonder how he would process such suggestion.

The sad thing is, he truly does not believe he lies, manipulates, or uses other people. Even when pointed out by his own family and therapists, he still disagrees. If I ever say things like that, he would blow up and say "see, that is why I cannot be married to you, because you make me feel like sh*t!" When I was in a complete shock to hear that he was arrested for his sexual behavior, he said "you are looking at me as if I am a monster, but I am not! Cut it out, don't make me feel like I am a loser". But I was not. I was simply very, very shocked and sad.

Looking back, he certainly did not like that my comments, attitudes, or simple facial expressions that might have suggested that I was disappointed by certain his behaviors. He did not want to feel low, as he had already felt low, with all of his problems (drugs, sex addictions, not being able to hold a job, etc.). And he probably decided that getting rid of me would free him and he would become more confident, free of guilt feeling. Everyone else told him that's inside him and not me, but he did not listen. I was not wise or experienced enough to be able to believe it either. I thought I was the cause of his problems and felt horrible. I prayed everynight for forgiveness.

As he started to repeat certain behaviors, that's when I finally began to think 'maybe he would have had these issues, regardless - whether he was with me or not'.

I think the biggest reason I began to feel happy again last year was because I stopped blaming myself for everything. I did not have to feel so guilty, which allowed myself to breath and have fun again in life.

Yes HAP, STBX has always been a manipulator, but in a way, I have allowed that to happen/continue the longest time. Because I did not believe that is what he was doing. I was in denial. Whether we get back together or not, for his own sake and for the sake of our son, I do hope STBX will truly wake up and start taking responsibility, instead of blaming others and also using them.

Things I have been reminding myself of lately.......

(1) we cannot dwell in the past
(2) keep the sweet memories where they belong to - in the past
(3) we do not have a crystal ball
(4) life is too short to be stay in a limbo
(5) if we are happy, confident and loving, kids will learn positive attitudes from us
(6) maintain a good circle of friends and family
(7) laugh!

(9) Don't forget number 8.

SS

Ha ha, you are so funny SS!

I hope you are smiling more these days.

You are, aren't you?

SS

Yes, I am;) I am doing much better and am much happier.

I feel sad for STBX occasionally though. I know he has potential to succeed in life - he is intelligent, but his issues have been in his way. I know I get really upset about him whenever he does something or says something nasty - but it's almost easier to deal with such feeling. As long as I am upset about him, I am not feeling sorry for him - pitying is one of the worst feelings, at least for me, to have. I do not want to pity anyone and I don't want anyone to pity me either. When I remember STBX' kindness and other good quality, it makes it harder and I really feel bad for him, because I feel like he is just wasting his life with his I don't know why he keeps having so many problems in life. And that makes me feel sad.

Having said that, I am feeling positive MOST OF TIMES these days. Thanks for asking SS! How are things with you?

Milk

SS is happy these days. The problems of life don't go away, but my W loves me, and none of my kids are in jail, or in the hospital, so I'm good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When I remember STBX' kindness and other good quality, it makes it harder and I really feel bad for him, because I feel like he is just wasting his life .....

He is wasting his life. Looking for happiness in THINGS, and in places where happiness is not likely to be found.

However, he isn't likely to pay attention if you tell him about it.
I suspect ......... you would already know that.

One day he will wake up, and he will say "What have I done? " but it already looks like it is too late.

I'm glad you are mostly happy. I think I understand what you mean.

DS is well also?

SS

Gee, I wrote a loooooooooooooooong reply to SS last week, and of course it disappeared!!!

SS, thanks for your kind words, as usual, and for asking about DS. DS is doing really well. I feel so blessed that I am his mother.

DS and I spent a lot of time outside this passed weekend, and had a lot of fun. Sunday we came back at around 7:40pm and soon as we entered the house, the phone rang. DS was very tired and fell asleep in the car so I did not answer it, as I figured it was from STBX.

Then I was outside, watering my lawn and flowers. Apparently STBX called two more times during that time, but I only found that out the next day. I checked my phone record over the internet (I have an internet phone) on Monday at work, and I realized that he called 5 times (!!) on Sunday. 4pm, 6pm, 7:40pm, 8:30pm, and 8:40pm. Although this time he left a message only once, and he did not yell and scream, like he did two weeks ago (for missing his calls). When he left a message, which was when he called the first time at 4pm, he sounded sad and/or depressed. He just said “hi, please call me back”. He didn’t even say “hi DS, it’s your daddy”, his usual talk.

That made me feel sad too. I felt his pain – I felt that he was feeling lonely. What was he doing at 4 in the afternoon (it was a beautiful day on Sunday!) alone in his apartment anyway??? He probably saw many outside, with family, and felt even more alone in his dark apartment. I could tell he was missing DS a lot.

I know, it’s HIS choice. He decided that he would be happier without responsibilities and wanted to be free. Yet I felt bad for him. Also he must be feeling that he is being ‘replaced’ by someone else in DS’ life.

I kept thinking yesterday why things did not work out between us – STBX loves his son, he does not do well alone, and he DID love a lot of things about me or things I brought to this relationship – whether that’s foreign culture, my family-oriented value, whatever. But he did not want to fight and gave up. Now, close to 4 years after he started to feel very unhappy about our marriage and over 2 years after he moved out, I am moving on and yet when I sense that STBX is not happy, I become unhappy too. It’s so crazy.

Then of course I felt very bad for the guy I am seeing now. He does not deserve this. None of this is his fault, and yet I was feeling sorry for STBX.

I am tired of feeling guilty all the time. I felt very bad for STBX, even for his multiple addictions and arrests – I felt that I must have made him so unhappy that bad things happened to him. I felt that I screwed up his life. And I tried to fight such thoughts, and was moving on. I found love again, and feeling being appreciated appropriately, which is a GREAT feeling. It’s great to feel again that I am making someone happy. And then STBX kept coming in and out of my life, and each time he makes this sad face, as if I am abandoning him, I feel bad tremendously. And I also feel so bad for my current b.f. And DS talks about ‘daddy’ this, ‘daddy’ that……, I feel bad that I am moving on. I even feel bad for my dog that he had to go through this. When I see my parents being happy for me again that I am moving on and having fun again – I feel great, so the minute I feel bad for STBX, I feel bad for my parents too that I am STILL tossing these backward looking ideas. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhg!!!!! I want to stop feeling guilty. I know, I cannot make EVERYONE happy, but…… I wonder if I may have low self-worthiness, which makes me want to please everyone.

Then I had DS call his dad last night. STBX was very happy to hear from him, and said “I miss you sooooooooo much!” about 10 times. Then he said something about going fishing, etc., which is great for DS, but at the same time I KNEW that I was secretly hurting inside by being betrayed by my own thoughts – that STBX might want to come back. Honestly, if STBX does NOT mention about reconciliation at all, it will hurt but at the same time it will make my life so much easier. I have NO option, so just be happy and move on, period. But a part of me I think wants him to have a desire to reconcile. And I kept asking myself “why on the earth do you want him to want to come back???”, which is soooooooooooooooo pointless. He hasn’t changed and it is almost guaranteed that IF we ever get back together now, it will end up in a big huge fight/disappointment/hurt and divorce talk again. So why do I want that? I don’t! I really don’t want to waste my life anymore. Yet I know I will be hurt if I feel that STBX will be very certain about our divorce. I am so backward!!!!!!!!!!! I must be losing my mind. I can’t even be consistent in my own thoughts….

Milk

dating while married makes a very messy situation even messier

I do not understand WHY people do this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I agree Pepp. I do.

I disagree - if - you take out the word "deserve".

This "boyfriend" is knowingly dating a not-yet-divorced-woman-mother-of-a-minor-child .... and unless he is a totally clueless individual who has no social observational skills what-so-ever .... He KNOWS this is a minefield! he is DATING A MARRIED WOMAN ~~~> [color:"red"] YOU ! [/color]

and the worst part ?

Your little child gets to learn that adults have a higher priority (their own needs) that rise above the needs of a CHILD GOING THROUGH THE BREAKUP OF HIS FAMILY

It's more important to QUICKLY find someone new to DATE (replace Daddy) than it is to tend to the emotional/psychologicqal wounds of a DIVORCING CHILD

the CHILD is going through this divorce ...

It <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />pisses me off that you are dating, if you want the unvarnished truth!

It's like you come to MB and learn ~~~> (blank) about the nature of marriage, relationships, personal recovery, personal responsibility, value of family, needs of children

and I am sooooooooooooooo
disappointed

Milkshake,

consider breaking it off with your friend. The best thing for all involved right now is to be clear in mind, and involvment with another person only scews your version of things. You need a significant amount of time to transition; take it. Your son isn't equipped to deal with all of the turmoil from the separation and divorce, much less dealing with another person being involved.

Even if you have decided that the D is what you want, it's not time to pursue other people. I'm pretty sure that this other man's involvement with you doesn't make anything easier. You need time to fully get over what is happening to your family.

I want to apologize for not being the friend I should have been. Pep and SL are right. I was thinking about how to say it nicely...... but some times that doesn't work. If I had been a better friend, I would have said something sooner.

Now you have heard some things that must have hurt. I would guess it was very difficult to read, and even more difficult to think about.

What defines who we are, is not a total absence of mistakes. It is what we do about them. What will you do?

I encourage you to break off any relationships and wait until your D is final, and you have healed. I hope you are doing well this week. I hope you have been thinking, and know and understand what will be best for you, and DS.

You do know that Pep cares, or she wouldn't have posted?

I encourage you to talk about it some more.

How are you doing overall?

SS

Thank you all. I haven't posted in a while because I was travelling and then I could not find my post...

Hey, there you are! Hope you are doing well, let us know.

You will come tell us all about everything - won't you?

SS

Good to hear back from you Milk!

Come on Milk........... (SS taps foot, looks impatient.)

Ok, I'm teasing you, but we would like to know how you are.

SS

Thanks everyone. Since our office moved in June to a new building and I no longer have my own office (we are now on the new 'open floor' concept), it has been difficult for me to check this website. Everyone can see my PC screen....

Also, I have been a lot more productive both at work and home. This website has been one of the greatest support for me when I was going through the tough time, but I feel that maybe I am at a point where I should spend more time on improving my career performance, on my son, and my friends who are having some hard time and could use some of my help. In a way, I feel that this move (the office move) could be an indication that I am ready to move to another stage in my life and that I should spend less time thinking about my failed marriage and STBX. This move definitely 'forced' me to stay away from this website due to lack of privacy, and strangely it helped me minimize my sad thoughts on my relationship. During the weekend I am usually too busy to logon too. Things happen for reasons, and to me, the whole change probably happened because as long as I keep logging in, I will never stop 'looking back'. I certaily still do this, from time to time, but I do not want to spend most of my time looking into a rearview mirro. So in the end, I feel that this office move (even though I am now in a smaller space!) did good to me.

STBX and I agreed on everything and our divorce could be final within weeks. That's not a happy thing, and frankly, even STBX, who desperately wanted freedom, will not be jumping up and down once we get the final papers. BUT I truly do not think, at this point, that hanging in limbo will do any good to any of us. Also I feel that STBX and I grew so far apart now during the past two years. STBX calls only when he misses DS4, but when he is having a good time he doesn't even call for a whole week. But that is okay. DS4 is growing so much and getting stronger as a person. He knows that he is the most important thing in life for me. And I feel blessed that we - me and my son...., and also our dog - have one another and are a very strong family.

Thank you all for your support!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love,
Milk

I think it will be good for you to spend time doing the things you have outlined.

May God teach you, guide you, and help you do your very best. I believe if you do your very best, it will be good indeed.

SS

Thank you SS, you have been a great supporter and listener!!!

Milk