Thanks Silent. I know, it's pretty pitiful that a 38 year old man NEEDS to hear his 4-year-old say "I love you" like 10 times each day and if he doesn't, WH forces him to say it. He always asks "do you miss me, DS4?", and DS4 is now acting more mature and replies "of course I miss you", which apparently helps ease WH's insecurity. Looking back, WH used to do this with me. He used to ask me if I loved him and missed him. WH has always been insecure.

Last night when WH was talking to DS4, he said something like "my new insurance premium will be much higher" or something, but I didn't really respond to that. As if he suffers. I have been paying for DS4 and my medical insurance ALONE ever since he was born. My mortgage is 5 times higher than WH's rent. I am paying for DS4's daycare costs all by myself. And our salary differential is NOT that great. Yet WH cannot pay a small amount each month (by the way, the amount I requested is so small that my friends thought I was joking - obviously EVEN IF we both contribute this amount each month, it will not be enough to cover DS4's college costs in 14 years)? He goes out and buys a fancy motorcycle. He goes out every weekend, spending hundreds of dollars on drinks, and yet he cannot pay only a fraction of it for his son? But he claims he loves DS4 so much and needs DS4 to say the same to him over the phone? It's just so twisted, childish, selfish, and insane.

Each time he changed his jobs, he always blamed his bosses. They 'don't understand' HIM, according to him. They do not appreciate him. They piss him off, etc.

I just keep praying that DS4 will not grow up to be the kind of person who blames everyone else but himself for whatever the mistakes, unhappiness, dissatisfaction, etc.

Milk, have you also thought about having the lawyers hash the rest of this out; you ask for what you want and WH asks for what he wants and you let the courts decide. It sounds to me that the courts would probably award you MORE money than you are asking for.

I can understand just wanting the D to be final, everything ironed out, so you can move on, but if your WH bounces back with some retort every time you attempt to finalize something for your son, there is no sense in talking anymore. You can attempt an amicable divorce, as long as, seemingly, you are willing to give in on almost everything. If his salary matches yours, he needs to put up or shut up, IMO.

Despite all of this mess, lady, how are you, these days?

Your WH sounds exactly like my dad. Except for a few hundred dollars each year for special events like summer camp, my mom never really got any child support (this as all long before the state started stepping in). She had to sue and pay for the divorce on her own. Visitation was limited to the few times a year that he'd drive down from another city or state and take my brother and I to dinner or brunch. Maybe a week out of the summer when we'd go see him. Yet he always had a new Cadillac in the driveway, regardless of how his current fly-by-night job or business was doing.

My brother is a doc now and he said that he's tried to identify our dad's pathology. If you ever figure your WH out, will you let me know? I bet it would apply to my dad as well.

Well, my dad was an alcoholic, who could probably barely hold a job, much less his head up. He never gave child support and I have never seen him. I've only seen one pic of him, and that was from the late 60's. He passed away when I was about 19(?). I can't remember. This is probably one of many reasons that I was and am so protective of DS. He should not have to pay for either mine or PWC's mistakes. Of course, I was living with a clear mind...

SD - sorry, I was replying to milkshake. The description of her WH sounds eerily like my dad. One thing about my old man, alcohol was never a problem. His dysfunction was all his - no external stimuli necessary.

Wow, a lot of similar stories. WH is not alcoholic but he was addicted to marijuana and sex/porn. He does not remember but apparently he was sexually abused when he was a child. His step mom had a drinking problem, and all of his sisters/brother have/had drinking/sex/drug addictions. Actually WH was among the least broken - or so we thought. His brother tried to kill himself when he was in college. His sister has been on Prozac since she was in college. But now they are doing okay (they still have many issues, but on the surface they seem to be doing fine), whereas WH is in a big mess. He cannot hold a job, even though he has a master’s degree. He is full of anger. He is so irresponsible. He comes first, the end of the story. AND he can be so charming that he can manipulate others quite easily.

Seabird, I don't think I can figure him out - I don't think he even understands himself.

Milkshake,

I think you would find reading the "The sociopath next door" interesting reading. Your WH sounds like a fit.

Hang in there, protect yourself and your son by all means necessary.

Thanks for your suggestion HAP. It's interesting, a good friend of mine whose xH is the sociopath told me the same thing. Initially I was like "nah", but the more I learn about this and look back how WH has ALWAYS acted around me and his family, it became obvious that he was NOT acting cute and charming just to please us - that is how he ALWAYS got his ways. And it's all about him. And my understanding is that is what sociopath is.....

Yep, pretty similar. I've always classified my dad as a sociopath. My brother doesn't necessarily agree, but he won't tell me that I'm wrong either. He's a doc. He's clinical and won't make any sort of armchair diagnosis.

I know that my dad has a thing for porn and the first thing he asked my oldest sister when she set him up online was how to find stuff like that. My sister... His D for crying out loud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He was in the Navy in WW2. He entered young at 15 and I have heard that he was sexually assaulted by a shipmate. His mother was pretty crazy as well and her M with his dad was about as toxic as it can get.

My dad is also very charming and extremely intelligent. He makes a great first impression and people always walk away thinking he's great. After they get to know him and see his selfishness, the migrate away from him. He's only had two close friendships that I know of and both men were just like him. Those friendships were usually pretty long distance as well, so they didn't step on each others' toes too much. He also jumped from job to job and business idea to business idea. He's had some great concepts and could have been very successful, but he always managed to sabotage himself. And blame everyone else. I don't think I EVER heard him admit to being wrong or even offering a sincere apology. For anything.

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack. I was just stunned by the similarities. Enough to really make me think that there is a defined pathology of some sort at work here. Too many coincidences.

OMG, I can't believe how similar your dad sounds to my STBX! STBX is exactly the same. He looks very honest, pure, intelligent, etc., so he does pretty well at interviews. He is smart for real, but his selfishness must prevent him from doing well at work - then he always managed to destroy his own career advancement opportunities. Then he blames everyone else but himself. He has also come up with many business ideas as well. But he is lazy (because he is selfish and irresponsible, if he does not feel like doing something, he won't do it), so nothing gets accomplished. He also just lies, lies, lies – he lies so casually that I’m sure he now believes them.

I do believe that he loves his son. But love comes with hard work too, and that is the part he doesn't understand. He only wants the fun or easy part. He does not mind buying DS4 toys, because then DS4 will be happy to come see his dad. Also it's easier to entertain a 4-year-old when you have toys. He does not want to spend a day outside teaching his son how to ride a bike without training wheels or how to swim or how to play baseball or anything that requires him a lot of time and efforts. He says he wants his son to go to college and become successful, yet he does not want to contribute to DS4's 529 plan, because that's hard and not fun. He rather has his fancy motorcycle or buys himself more toys to entertain himself.

He was seeing IC for his sex addiction, but he stopped going last year. I am not sure if he still watches porn on TV or computer. He is still taking Prozac - it's been almost 3 years.

I have mixed feelings hearing your story Seabird. I feel sad to hear what has happened to your dad and how that impacted his marriage, his family, and YOU. I can’t believe your dad asked your sister (!!) about porn. That’s so sick. At the same time I feel happy to learn that despite of having had a dad who was/is a sociopath; it sounds like all the kids (you, your brother and sisters) came out okay. This is a very encouraging piece of information, really. Because I am secretly very concerned of my son. When he lies about typical kids stuff, say having one more piece of candy than he was allowed – because of my traumatic experience with WH, I get terrified. I know DS4 is just being a kid, but I tend to overreact sometimes. I feel like “oh my God, DS4 already started to lie – just like his father!” So everyday I am reminding myself “kids will be kids” because I do not want to overreact too much that it scares DS4 and he won’t tell me the truth anymore. At the same time, I always tell DS4 how lying is not good he should feel safe telling me everything. I try not to judge or even make comments sometimes, and I just listen. When I patiently listen to DS4’s stories, he tends to calm down or behave more reasonably.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your stories Seabird. Would you say having gone through what you went through as a child, you have become stronger and wiser?

Milk

Milkshake - thank you for the nice comments. I will relate to you first what my mother says. She feels that my brother and I are two of the most moral people she knows. Compared to my dad, it may not be much (LOL!), but I do think she is relieved that we didn't turn out like him. That we didn't seem to inherent whatever pathology that afflicts him. I am the youngest of 4; my sisters are 16 and 15 years older than me (when he asked her about the porn on the internet, she was already well into her 40s), and my brother is almost 7 years older than me. There is quite a difference in age between us. My mom and dad split up when I was still very young. Matter of fact, I have no memory of them together as a married couple. He was in sales and traveled a lot too, so even when they were together, he wasn't around much.

My mom was his 2nd of 3 wives. While they were together, he had 2 PAs; the first was a ONS while he was on the road, and the second was a long-term with my mom's supposed best friend that went on for years. It was a different time then and my mom chose to stay blind to it for a long time.

Occasionally I would make my mom's hair stand up because I would exhibit a mannerism of my dad's. Not just behavior, but maybe an inflection in my voice, or the way I'd sit in a chair. This scared her because I wasn't around him enough to have "learned" it. Some things are inherited genetically, and she was never sure just what and how much I might have inherited. I think she kept a very close eye on me basically up until I moved out.

If you don't mind, I will offer you my perspective as it might help you to see your son's future direction... As a child I felt the loss of his presence. Again, it was a different time and kids from divorced homes were a minority. Also, my mom didn't make much money and so there weren't too many extras. We got by and always had food and clothes, but our budget was painfully obvious to me. Also, my dad moved to another city and I think I mentioned that visiting with him I could count on one hand each year with fingers to spare. Most of my family thinks that their D was easiest on me because I was spared his abuse, and didn't feel the separation as acutely because I never really bonded with him in the first place.

I would say their assumptions are too simple. The fact of the matter is, I missed having a dad around. Maybe not MY dad, but I missed having a dad. I thought that as I got older, the sense of loss would wane - and for a long time it did. Until I had kids of my own. Father's Day to me still seems alien and I'm still not even sure what day it is. If I have any ultimately goal in life, it's to be a better father to my kids than mine was to me. I'm not usually one to find insight or profundity in songs, but one that really gets to me is Everclear's "Father of Mine". You can read the lyrics here if you want to. It isn't an exact reflection of my experience, but the sentiments is pretty damn close.

Your STBX can't hide his nature and unless he changes himself fundamentally, his R with his children isn't going to be a good one. His selfishness and poor choices will affect them eventually and they will reach the age where they will recognize it and withdraw from him. He's digging his own grave with his behavior.

So to finally answer your question directly... Older and wiser? I hoped so, but now my W seems intent to D me, so I know that I've still been making mistakes. I hope the difference between him and me is that I am honestly trying to recognize them and change them. It might be too late for my W, but I have to do it for the sake of my R with my kids. I just have to.

STBX came to pick up DS4 on Sat morning. He asked me if I am seeing anyone. I said "I don't really think that's your business...", of course what I REALLY wanted to say was "YOU wanted out, YOU pushed me away thousand times, YOU filed, then YOU wanted to come back last year just because YOU needed my financial support - then we did the MC again, but YOU decided YOU wanted out again....., and I again asked if there is any chance of us reconciling and YOU made it clear that YOU have no intention...!!!". But I controlled myself. He then asked "do you want to get back together?"

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??? Why does he keep doing this? As long as I look sad and unhappy, he tells me nasty things and makes me feel so guilty as if all of his mental issues and nasty habits were caused by our unhappy marriage. Then soon as I start to look happy again without him (like last year and also this year), he wants to shake things up again so that I would be vulnerable again. Last year I wanted to believe that something DID change inside him and he wanted to come home. But quickly I realized that it was not the case. He only wanted to use me and my money. He was not really willing to make any adjustments or improvements on his end. Still I began to raise my hope..., and of course, that's when he turned around and said "no, actually I don't want to reconcile, I want to continue our D process". I felt betrayed again. He started to push me away again, saying that he WAS feeling lonely and weak, which made him want to come back but it was not because he wanted his family back - which hurt me a lot. He probably got a sense of satisfaction by seeing me being hurt again.

Then I recovered from that again...., luckily, this time it took much shorter than the first time. He did not like that, and he wanted to shake things up again so began saying things here and there that he thought would hurt me. I was hurt, but did not show that. I think he was hoping that I would start begging him again not to divorce, but I didn't. Now he realized that I am seeing someone and happy. My schedule is full, and I have a lot of great and supportive friends. I am happy. So he had to say something so that my happiness would not last.

When I kind of shook my head, he seemed surprised. He said "NO???" As if he could not understand that I would say 'no' to his idea of reconciliation. But frankly, what has he done to make up for his numerous EAs, addictions, lack of responsibility and lies??? None!

I would have been naive, if none of this happened - I would have thought "oh, STBX misses me and loves me still", and I would have fallen for him again, without demanding him anything in return. But now I see a certain pattern. STBX continues to do this. Whenever he wants something, he acts cute and says things, but he does not mean them. Or he never makes efforts to keep his words or initiate something. Never!

If he truly misses his family, he would have showed up on time to pick up DS4 in the first place, but of course he was late as usual. He would have done something that takes efforts and considerations, something I and DS4 would appreciate. But he continues to just use 'words', and no actions. It's sad.

Read that book I suggested...........

See what WH would say to finalizing the D (FAIRLY) AND then dating to where a R might go (of course with advance notice that a pre nup would be in place in the event of any future remarriage). My bet is that he runs away as fast as he can. I hope that I am wrong but he sounds like a manipulator, a User of people.

Hang in there.

Thanks HAP. That's a very interesting idea. Let's get D anyway, and if WE both want to date to see if we can improve our R, we can do so after D....., I wonder how he would process such suggestion.

The sad thing is, he truly does not believe he lies, manipulates, or uses other people. Even when pointed out by his own family and therapists, he still disagrees. If I ever say things like that, he would blow up and say "see, that is why I cannot be married to you, because you make me feel like sh*t!" When I was in a complete shock to hear that he was arrested for his sexual behavior, he said "you are looking at me as if I am a monster, but I am not! Cut it out, don't make me feel like I am a loser". But I was not. I was simply very, very shocked and sad.

Looking back, he certainly did not like that my comments, attitudes, or simple facial expressions that might have suggested that I was disappointed by certain his behaviors. He did not want to feel low, as he had already felt low, with all of his problems (drugs, sex addictions, not being able to hold a job, etc.). And he probably decided that getting rid of me would free him and he would become more confident, free of guilt feeling. Everyone else told him that's inside him and not me, but he did not listen. I was not wise or experienced enough to be able to believe it either. I thought I was the cause of his problems and felt horrible. I prayed everynight for forgiveness.

As he started to repeat certain behaviors, that's when I finally began to think 'maybe he would have had these issues, regardless - whether he was with me or not'.

I think the biggest reason I began to feel happy again last year was because I stopped blaming myself for everything. I did not have to feel so guilty, which allowed myself to breath and have fun again in life.

Yes HAP, STBX has always been a manipulator, but in a way, I have allowed that to happen/continue the longest time. Because I did not believe that is what he was doing. I was in denial. Whether we get back together or not, for his own sake and for the sake of our son, I do hope STBX will truly wake up and start taking responsibility, instead of blaming others and also using them.

Things I have been reminding myself of lately.......

(1) we cannot dwell in the past
(2) keep the sweet memories where they belong to - in the past
(3) we do not have a crystal ball
(4) life is too short to be stay in a limbo
(5) if we are happy, confident and loving, kids will learn positive attitudes from us
(6) maintain a good circle of friends and family
(7) laugh!

(9) Don't forget number 8.

SS

Ha ha, you are so funny SS!

I hope you are smiling more these days.

You are, aren't you?

SS

Yes, I am;) I am doing much better and am much happier.

I feel sad for STBX occasionally though. I know he has potential to succeed in life - he is intelligent, but his issues have been in his way. I know I get really upset about him whenever he does something or says something nasty - but it's almost easier to deal with such feeling. As long as I am upset about him, I am not feeling sorry for him - pitying is one of the worst feelings, at least for me, to have. I do not want to pity anyone and I don't want anyone to pity me either. When I remember STBX' kindness and other good quality, it makes it harder and I really feel bad for him, because I feel like he is just wasting his life with his I don't know why he keeps having so many problems in life. And that makes me feel sad.

Having said that, I am feeling positive MOST OF TIMES these days. Thanks for asking SS! How are things with you?

Milk

SS is happy these days. The problems of life don't go away, but my W loves me, and none of my kids are in jail, or in the hospital, so I'm good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When I remember STBX' kindness and other good quality, it makes it harder and I really feel bad for him, because I feel like he is just wasting his life .....

He is wasting his life. Looking for happiness in THINGS, and in places where happiness is not likely to be found.

However, he isn't likely to pay attention if you tell him about it.
I suspect ......... you would already know that.

One day he will wake up, and he will say "What have I done? " but it already looks like it is too late.

I'm glad you are mostly happy. I think I understand what you mean.

DS is well also?

SS