To me, WH's years of lying and having a secret life behind my back is a much worse crime...., but is it???

Of course, I am not the ultimate judge. We leave that to God.
However, I think there is a difference between those who really try, and still fall short, and those who do whatever they want, because it feels good to them at the time, and don't care about duty or honor.

I am sure you did some things wrong. I only say that because I know we all make mistakes at some point or another.

I don't think you can take the responsibility for what he did though. Sometimes in looking for reasons, we blame ourselves. We can only do as well as we know at the time. We can't excuse the Wayward, and blame ourselves. Well, I suppose we could, but it doesn't mean it's fact.

I have watched others here wonder if they really are as bad as what the WS painted them to be. SVB1 was another who wondered, and agonized about the things her WH said.

There comes a point in time where you have to trust your self. I don't know if you will ever be able to connect the dots until you have your interview with God, and he tells you how it really was.

I'll tell you what I told SVB1.

Trust yourself.
Believe in your self.

Others view of you may be important. In many companies, we have an evaluation and our continued employment may depend upon how well we do.

I would guess you look good in these reviews. That would be (and should be) a major clue. (Grin)

Your H did not do well, and for good reason, but he never figured out why. That is also a major clue.

Think about this part of it. You know you do well in many areas of your life. You know you are smart, and have talent.

Yes, do look at your self, and try to improve yourself.
No, don't believe the bad things your H said to try to shift the blame from him to you.

Somewhere in all this there has to be balance. God can help you find it - keep talking to him about it, and keep trying.

It will come in time.

SS

I'll keep praying and trying to improve myself - that's all I can do. Thanks SS. Have a wonderful weekend!

Milk

A call from STBX - he wanted to go over our agreement - and it's really stupid. My attorney put down some $ amount (child support) per month, and STBX is panicking, saying that he gets paid biweekly. But what difference does it make? I will get 20% of his net income biweekly, that is fine, it's just that my attorney had to put down something. So that's what I told him "look, the total dollar amount per year is exactly the same. He just needed to put down the $ amount, if you get paid biweekly, that's fine, it doesn't change anything and that's fine". But he kept going on and on "no, it does make a difference...."

Come'on, he has an MBA. I was really annoyed, and showed in my voice. All what he cares is $$$ now. What the hxxx. I'm not even asking for any contribution towards DS4's medical, school, extracurriculm, nothing! I'll pay for all of it, because I do NOT want to deal with STBX on a monthly basis with the stack of receipts. I rather pay for all of it and maintain the decision-making power. I don't need his "no, that's too expensive, send DS4 to a cheaper school", etc. If I think one school is better than the other, I know myself - I will send DS4 there anyway, so in the end most likely I will pay for all of it, so I asked my attorney to remove all the language saying that WH has to contribute 50% towards it. I don't need his help!!!

So why can't he be happy? I am letting him off the hook very easily. I want to MOVE ON, and that means I do not have to worry about receiving some extra money from him every month. That's not how I want to live. I'll most likely always make more than STBX anyway, so that's fine I'll manage it all by myself.

YET..., STBX is still sooooooooooo concerned of money. That really upsets me as well as depresses me. I really don't have any respect left for this man.

After hanging up the phone, he called back but I didn't answer. He left a message saying "sorry, I think I annoyed you with all of those questions...., but that's okay, whatever it is, it's not a big deal, so I'm fine".

Then he called again...., I didn't answer and this time he didn't leave me a message.

Does he realize that he is so cheap???

Milk

WH is refusing to agree that he provides his W2 each year to confirm his income (so that if his income rises, CS will go up). What's up with that???

STBX is having a financial problem. He owes quite a bit in taxes, and he does not have money to pay for it. He asked me if I could give him money in advance (a part of our settlement, since I am buying him out). I replied politely I cannot do so, since I need to liquidate some assets or borrow from my parents to generate cash and I won't feel comfortable doing so before our divorce is final, since then technically whatever amount of money I'll give to him will be considered marital and he can technically ask me ON TOP OF it later on.

Then he followed up with a nasty email - saying "this is bs, milk, it must be nice to sit on the assets and watch your ex go down the hill". What is this??? I have been nice and told him that I loved him and begged for reconiciliation - and now he says I enjoy watching him failing??? What kind of thing to say to the mother of his child? And he thretened me by saying "I will tell this to my dad, that you are not willing to help me", because he knows his parents love me and I love them, he wants me to get scared that now his family will not be behind me!

Any advice?

Maybe I should not have (and I have always done this, which might have been a problem since I have never exercised a true 'tough love'), but I replied to STBX, because it's just not my nature to have such nasty feelings hanging in between us.

I explained I cannot do this because of the potential legal complications, but if that's what he really needs, he needs to contact his lawyer to include some kind of language in our settlement so that whatever amount I will give him now will be deducted from the settlement.

I still have a nut in my stomach. It makes me sad that WH is so selfish and blows up instantly and views me like a monster.

My advice is let him fall -

I don't think he will learn any other way.

Don't worry about the things he is saying -
I see that he has gotten good at trying to blame others for his mistakes, and then get them to bail him out of problems that he caused all by himself.

Let him figure it out.

SS thinks some more.........

It looks to me like he never really interacts with people on a friendly basis. It looks like everything he says, and every thing he does is him trying to set the person up so he can get something out of it in the future.

Now, I don't know him, and I have no proof, and I can't read his mind, but it looks like that to me.

Protect your self.
Let him deal with the mess he caused.

I think if it was me that read his email, I may have replied like this:

"Sorry things are not going well for you. I hope you make it work. Please quit asking me for help, I have my own life to live now."


He can always sell his guns, and motorcycle to pay his taxes. Don't tell him that though - let him figure it out.

I'm surprised you didn't laugh, and write back: "Oooohhhh you poor thing, I feel soooooooo sorry for you."

Smile Milk - You'll be OK.

SS

SS, I wrote a reply yesterday but it just poof! disappeared...

Thanks for your advice. It's so true, and I know this in my head but am having a hard time actually letting him 'fall'. It is laughable, that a 38-year-old man is telling me "I'll tell my dad that you are not willing to help me" to get me to help him. He sounds like my 4-year-old.

And I know why his dad is not helping. His dad is like me, who has a soft spot for WH so that we always in the end bail WH out - we always did in the past. But his mom is a tough one. She told me several times in the past that since all of this was brought on to himself and he was so sure that he had thought about this and was doing the right thing, while treating me and his own family badly - then when he needs help, he can take care of his own mess too. So MIL told me that she would not help her son when it comes to finance and anything related to our divorce. And she told me that she won't let her husband help WH either. So the fact WH is having a financial problem and is not getting help from his dad, means to me that his mom found out about this and told FIL not to help.

Still, it is hard for me to just ignore. And when WH called me several times yesterday (see, only when he needs something, he calls!) and told me “let’s not fight over this”, which is also laughable, since I was not picking a fight but he was. So I told him “WH, I wasn’t fighting with you, I wasn’t upset, you were the one who was ready to bite my head off”. Then he had a nerve to say “let’s not get emotional here OK”. I told him I’m way beyond that point and am NOT emotional. Anyway, in the end I kind of gave in and implied that I could help, as long as his lawyer includes the language in our agreement that I will not double pay WH when we settle. But I could tell WH was still not happy, because he thought I would have said "ok, fine, I'll give you money". So he just said "fine" and hung up.

Well this morning he sent me an email just to let me know that he would "take care of this on his own, since he is running out of time and he will have to tap in his 401K". Now, this made me feel bad, so I guess WH successfully accomplished his mission. The only reason he sent me this email was to make me feel bad - that now poor WH needs to get money from his 401K so that he will be penalized again next year.

All of my friends, like you SS, suggested that I leave WH alone. And I know that it's not my fault that WH lives alone in an apartment and was arrested twice and had to pay for his lawyers. It's not my fault that he has financial problems because of that. And it's not my fault that he decided to purchase a fancy motorcycle and keep a fancy car (that I am paying for) when he is in financial crisis. It's not my fault that he got in a car accident and his premium went up. YET, just not doing anything to help him makes me feel so bad. I'm not laughing at him, yet I feel like such a bixxx. And again, WH knows me - he knows that I have a soft spot for him like a mother would for her child.

One time our MC told WH to grow up and learn how to be more responsible and told me to stop mothering him. So that's this is all about...

I just could not ignore his email this morning, so just replied to him with suggestions (that he could get a payment plan with IRS or get a loan from a bank to pay his taxes instead of getting money from his 401K and once we settle he can pay it all off). Probably I should not have, but at least I can feel that I did not ignore him...

Man, I thought I was a tough little gal but I have a long way to master a true 'tough love'!

I know WH won't be happy that I just gave him 'suggestions' and not 'solutions' - and will probably get back to me with nasty emails or phone calls again.

I will try not to let that affect me.

Again thanks for your advice SS. What you said about how I should have responded made me laugh. Thanks.

Milk

P.S. By the way, when I was on the phone with WH last night, DS4 asked when I would be done with the phone so I told him “I’m almost done sweetie”, then
WH: “who was that??”
Me: “it’s DS4”
WH: “no, no, but there is someone!”
Me: “no it’s only DS4”
WH: “but I heard a guy’s voice”
Me: “I don’t know, it must be the TV”

Within a week after WH moved out in 2005, he started to look for a new date, despite his IC’s advice not to since he is a sex addict. He signed up for a multiple online dating services with false profile. Yet if he thought there might be a guy in my house, after YEARS of rejection from him, he gets upset about it? What is that, he thinks I am truly like his mother who will always be here for him??

WH wrote to me again today - he said "I already have too many credit card bills so I cannot make another loan", "let's just finalize the divorce - it's been dragging on for too long".

I always want to help people too -

~ But ~

We need to consider if what we are about to do will help, or not help.

So often it does not help, but only prolongs the problem.

Is the problem that he needs money for his taxes, or is the problem that he never learned how to budget and manage money?

Once you identify the problem, it's much easier to know what will help/not help.

There is a saying -

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.
Teach him how to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

If you have lots if fish, sometimes it easier to just hand them out. Easy is not always the best thing.

I don't mean to say you don't understand. I would guess you do. I hope you don't mine me reviewing from time to time. I know it often helps me, so I figure maybe you won't mind.

When I first came to MB, there was a quote I heard often in connection with WS's.

"Don't try to teach unless there is a student in the house."

Meaning of course, that until the WS wanted to learn the MB Concepts, it was useless to try to feed the information to them. Of course, it is so plain to you how to fix his problems. I continue to hope that he will "get it" at some point in the future. You need to base your interactions with him with these things in mind.

Will he learn by words, or does he need the school of hard knocks?

What does he really need?

Will any given course of action help his real needs, or just be a stopgap measure that won't help in the long run?

If you measure his requests against these questions, perhaps it will be easier for you to know what to do.

It's not that we don't help, it's that we understand what helps the most, even if it's painful for the other person in the short term.

I feel for you, I know it hurts to see a person you love travel such a difficult road. I am glad you care. That is good, shows strength, not weaknesses.

It's funny he thought there was a man in the house with you. Did he think you would avoid dating forever?

Learn to laugh at the things he says - that's easier than taking it personal, and wondering if it's your fault, of if you could have done things differently, or better.

Of course these things are my opinion - and everyone has one. It just seems to me that it's time for you to seize the day - and make your days into what you need, and want. Not let............ days, time, and thoughts stretch you over the rack of uncertainty.

Help him all you can, just make sure it's the right kind of help.

SS

Thanks SS. Your ability to identify core problems in others’ situations is very impressive, and I wonder that’s a result of your life long experience and wisdom, or of lots of reading…..???

WH seems to have calmed down and now does not mention his tax money anymore, so that's good. He called again yesterday to let me know that he has a class every Tuesday for the next 4 weeks because of his DUI last year and he cannot pick DS4 up for dinner (typically WH picks him up on Tues evening). He asked instead if he could pick DS4 up on Wed, so I said that's fine.

I just came back from lunch and there was a message from WH - he was wondering if he could keep DS4 overnight. I really do not understand why he did not mention it last night when he called? First, he only told me about his classes. I said that's fine if he could not pick up DS4 on Tues evenings for a while, but then again I was wondering why he did NOT let me know before, because I had already gone to pick DS4 up from his school. I did not hear anything from WH, and I had a feeling he would NOT go pick up DS4, and my feeling was correct. But how do I know then when he will go pick DS4 up or when he does not? Over the past two years, I always had to call or email him to 'confirm' he was picking up DS4, because otherwise either he forgets or something comes up, or whatever..... my friends suggested that I stop doing this, because WH needs to learn how to be responsible and reliable so that I do not need to do all the work for him.

So yesterday I did not call nor email to confirm. And I did not hear anything, so I KNEW he was not going to pick up DS4. What if, though, I assumed that WH was on schedule? Then no one would have showed up at DS4's school!

This extends to WH's visitation (or parenting time) with DS4 every other weekend. He is supposed to come by 10am on Sat morning, but he often shows up 11am or even 12pm. Last time, I had an appointment with my hair dresser and needed to leave home shortly after noon, yet he did not show up until around 12:00pm so that I was late! He called at 11am, to let me know that he was running late. I said "you sound like you just woke up", to which he said yes. "You know, I have my plans too and need to know in advance - are you coming now to pick up DS4?" He said "I am going to shower now so I'll be there in an hour"! I told him to forget about shower and just come ASAP. Then he showed up, like I said, at noon.

I know he doesn't do this on purpose, but he is just not reliable. So for this reason, I hesitate to let him do whatever at the last minute notice (like today). He thinks he can just call me and he will be able to NOT pick up DS4 as scheduled and/or to keep him overnight which is something we did not agree.

If it's just for this month and next month, it's really not a big deal, but frankly, when I think about the future - that we'll have to do this last minute arrangement every single week (!!!) for the next 14 years....., I mean, what kind of life is that? I should be able to feel I can trust WH when it comes to DS4. I should be able to sit back and relax, instead of always being worried that DS4 will not be picked up or plans will change all the time.

Sadly, however, I do not think WH will ever change in this regard - I've known him for 16 and a half years, but he has never been the kind of person where you could count on when it comes to planning. He easily makes promises or plans, yet rarely follows through.

Milk

I know men like their partners to share their dreams. I feel I did not 'share' WH's dreams enough.

The reason I am saying this is..., I just had a conversation with my best friend who is a guy. His wife is much older than him - let's say that old enough to be his mother - she cannot have kids. My friend has been wanting to have his own kids (they have his wife's daughter), and my friends and I have told him that (1) he knew he was marrying a woman who was much older and would not be able to have kids, (2) they do have a child - even though she is not biologically his - already, and so it is kind of selfish and senseless to demand that he would find a sarogate mother to have his own child.

Anyway, many years later, he still has this plan and now decided to execute his plan. His wife agreed. So they will fly to another country to find an egg donor and also a sarogate mother. So it will be his, but obviously not hers. And the baby will be almost like his wife's granddaughter, because of her age. She has been wanting to retire, but now my friend just told me that she had an interview last week because she needs to make more money to raise this baby (well, they haven't arranged this yet so technically there is no baby yet). Of course my friend is trying his best to make more money too, but he has just masters whereas his wife has a ph.d., and she has always made more money so most likely again it will be more of her job to provide than him.

Now, I was like..."wow", honestly. I don't know if I could do that if I was in her position. To fly over to another country so that my husband can have his own baby with someone else...., even though 15 or so years ago it was a KNOWN factor that I am much older than him and most likely will not be able to have kids with him. And now he is in his thirties and I'm nearing a retirement age...., yet I am not even allowed to retire because he wants his baby. But his wife would do anything..... Does that mean I am a selfish woman? I wouldn't have done it for my WH, if I was in the same situation and I think I would have been greatly offended....., but is that why WH left? My friend's wife would let him go out to flirt with other girls, let him go out alone with them, be nice to his 'female' friends, would not get jealous...

But if that is what it takes, I am not even sure if I want to be in a relationship...... do women have to give up so much to make their husbands happy? Am I wrong?

Hey milkshake,

I haven't posted to you much, but your situation just jumped out at me. Firstly, I totally understand the situation with your WH. I, too, guide my WH, even without recognizing it. I 'mother' him, I guess.

Well, that is now a thing of the past. I filed my taxes as head of household, claiming my DS and every deduction I could. WH earned untaxed income last year and now has to pay taxes on that. His decision to leave home leaves these things in his wake. It is not for me to do. I didn't decide this.

I know you are not in Plan B, as soooo many seem to be right now, but you can treat this sitch the same. Unless something has to do directly with the children, there is no reason for you to be involved, right?

AS for you WH's tardiness, I know it's a pain, but next time he is late, take your son with you, don't forgo your plans to accomodate him. He's a big, grown, man. If you worked with him and he was exceedingly tardy or late with projects, would you tolerate it? I seriously doubt it. I'm not being mean here, I'm just trying to show things from a different perspective.

I don't really know your story fully, so I couldn't even hazard a guess as to why your WH left. You do sound a bit tortured by these thoughts though.

You know what it takes to have a true, good, real relationship with a loving spouse, and allowing them to act like an in-heat alley cat is not part of that. I think we allow what we feel we can't stop.

Milk, I would not have done what your friend's wife is doing for him, either, BUT, I probably wouldn't be married to him in the first place, either. POJA, remember, doesn't mean sacrifice, it means agreeance that both parties are satisfied with.

Hi Silent, thanks for your post. You are right, I'm not in Plan B, but unless we need to communicate regarding DS4, I never contact him myself. WH calls to talk to DS4, and I usually just give a phone to him.

Yeah, my friend's wife is amazing, that she is willing to give her husband so much freedom - maybe because she is so much older, her focus might be different from ours? I don't know.

Anyway, one thing I can say for sure is that the past 3 1/2 years have been a very long journey for me and DS4, and I have learned so much about life. I wish I didn't learn about it this way, but that's what happened and changed my life. But when I look around, everyone faces some sort of hardships at some point time in life, and that's just how life is.

So how are you doing Silent? How is your little boy?

Milk

Hey Milk,

My DS is doing better, and WH is in the process of helping to find him counseling to deal with his sadness. I also basically demanded that our DS not spend any overnights with WH and OW (WH is living with OW). My WH finally agreed after some much needed pressure from me. WH didn't HAVE to agree, but I expect him to do what is best for his son, fog or no, and I told him I will do everything within my power to assure that DS is not further harmed by WH's choices.

I'm doing okay. I still have good days and bad, sometimes I just have bad moments and then life goes on, which is good. I look forward to warmer weather so that I can get outside and do some work on the house and gardens. I make plans on a week to week basis now, so I'm moving forward a little bit at a time. I get excited about little things again, like coloring Easter Eggs with DS.

I'm still hoping for my M to work out, but I'm not focused on that. I have begun to fondly think of memories I have with my H. My WH had me sooo convinced that our M was bad, so the memories became scewed to me. Now, I'm happy to report that MY memories are happy memories. It's a good day when that happens...

Hi Slient,

Hope your easter with your DS was fun and happy. I know what you are saying - I have gone through the stage myself. When I could feel that I was enjoying simple things again - it gave me so much courage and hope. And I'm also feeling the same way about my M. It was not all bad. In fact, we had many great memories together. Initially my STBX was also portraiting it as if we just had bad memoried, and I was almost forced to believe that, but now I know that's not true and I believe even STBX knows that we had wonderful time together too.

I am happy now many days - and am okay with the idea that I will NOT get back together with STBX. Because now I realize that he DOES have many issues, so unless he addresses them, our R will be bound to fail. And I do not want to go through the pains again. And of course there are things I need to improve too. So if we are NOT meant for each other, we will continue to walk separate paths, and I'm okay with the idea now. IF we are actually MEANT to be together, I'm sure something will happen in the future and by then we are all stronger, wiser, more considerate and more patient to each other that we'll rebuild a better relationship.

So I am okay now to think that whatever happens, it will all fall into places and that will be the best for us.

Milk

STBX called yesterday to ask me IN ADVANCE (which he never did before) if he could have DS4 over night during this coming week. In the past two years, he always called the same day (even in the afternoon or evening!) to ask, and most of the time I declined his offer, because I typically already have plans. Also it is not good that DS4 has no idea what is going to happen that day, as I usually tell him who is going to pick him up from school, whom he is going to spend evening with in the morning.

Anyway, the fact he respected my way is good, even though last time he asked for the overnight the last minute and I did not give in, he was furious. Hopefully he will continue to be more responsible and considering. One of his sisters just had a baby on Friday evening, and STBX left me a message to give me the news (but I already knew because his two other sisters had called me before him). It is kind of strange, given that I will soon to be 'nobody' to his family. But they always try to keep me in the loop because they want me to feel that I am still a part of their family. I am very grateful for that.

Happy Monday!

Strange..., and frankly, WOW. STBX left me a message yesterday which I just listened to it now. He said:

"Milk, the suspect for the Verginia Tech shooting turns out to be Asian. If anyone says anything stupid to you because of that, let me know, okay? I'll get more information on this, but definitely, be careful and let me know if anyone bothers you".

Wow. This is my old H! Of course I am NOT going back to the stage where I raise my hope and get crashed by being betrayed by WH again just because of this incident, but really, I was stunned when I listened to this. His voice, genuine concern, his willingness to protect me from the evil... that's my old H.

I do want to thank him for this, but am not sure if that's a good idea? I am NOT trying to accomplish anything here. I just feel that the right thing to do is to call or email him to at least acknowledge his message and thank him. But I've been so good without really contacting him from my end unless I need to speak to him about DS4.

Milk

The natural reaction would be to thank him.

Do you have an idea of what he would do with it if you did, or how you would feel if he turned on you again after you extended a "thanks?"
What I am trying to say is - would this help or hurt your relationship with him, and your continued interaction with him? Would he tend to take this and use it against you at some future time?
If it won't hurt, then whatever you wish.

I hope you have a good day today. Thanks for the Happy Monday - what a kind greeting.

SS

Hi SS,

I called this morning to thank him - that's how I would have done to anyone who shows such concerns, so regardless of what might or might not happen in WH's head after hearing my 'thank you', I felt I needed to be myself. He was not there (or was screening my calls, but I don't care) so I just left him a message.

Again, I'm not raising my hope or anything - but just wanted to aknowledge that he was being nice. Also I just checked one of the 40 old messages (I know, it sounds BAD - I have a voicemail which I typically check online at work, since I have ABSOLUTELY no time to check them at home after workm but my company changed its security policy and now I cannot access to my voicemail via internet, so I haven't checked them in a loooooooooooong time!), and beginning of this month when WH was ramping because I was not giving him money to pay for his taxes - it turned out that he DID call afterwards to 'apologize' to me! He said in his message "I'm calling just to say sorry - I don't want us to fight because of this". Wow! Today (even though the message was like two weeks old...) I had 2 BIG WOWS!

Milk