AGG,

I get confounded, being so close to the issue, which is why I write here - to try and get a clearer perspective.

I know things seem wrong, but I wonder if I'm not being too picky and over reacting???

G would promise you things and then not do anything. K thinks about things and usually acts on them.

I don't want to get caught "fixing" someone, though?!!!

It gets confusing to me.

I set up a boundary. Post here because I'm not sure if normal people would have the same objection. Get feedback that yeah, K is kind of over the line. K agrees to stop doing whatever, and starts moving in that direction.

Is that too much work for a relationship? Or is that kind of what most people experience. Although admittedly K extended his childhood way longer than most men get to... :P

V.

Wiffty,

Well Tom you have been around a long time - as have I. Since 99 if you can believe that. Seems like forever now. My user name used to be Harlequin99 if you remember any of that mess. My ex was a passive aggressive with a(n) (un)healthy touch of self centered narcissim. Moved 4 hours away from me and the kids to live in his home town again and be near his OW. Expected me to be OK with driving to meet him EOW for visitation.

My worst fear is tangling myself with someone like that again.

I have a very high tolerance for crap and K thinks he is paying for my exes' past mistakes. I think that K is an unusual man and he ended up alone for a reason. He admits that no woman would tolerate his former lifestyle. He has changed his lifestyle.

Now the question I'm asking is whether the lifestyle is a result of circumstance or personality. I look at his friends, and the ones that remained single and childless seem very self-centered. Is selfish behavior the root cause of why they were alone so long, or is being alone what leads to selfish behavior.

I was listening to a bible show the other night. The pastor was going on about this topic. Living a godly life included the part where you married and because you married you grew and learned to have relationships and to not engage in selfish behavior because being single meant that you are really only responsible for yourself in the end.

If I were to hope, it would be to hope that the "selfishness" I see is a result of a lack of habit toward selfless thinking and less a result of a true lack of compassion for others.

My sister went through a similar experience with her husband. He was a widower and in his 30s and very used to doing very bachelor kind of stuff. It took them a few years to sort that out...

Anyway - you could be right - maybe he is a p/a personality. He is most definitely a conflict avoider (as am I)

V.

Whenever I have contemplated the prospect of a relationship, I have recognized that it would require me to change. This is not inherently good or bad, and in fact I expect to change whether I am in a relationship or not, both consciously and unconsciously. The question I have to ask about a relationship is whether I can expect it to change me in a direction of positive growth.

If I am being "forced" to change who I am just because, in my view, it is what I need to do in order to maintain the relationship, then something is wrong; I am going to become increasingly anxious about not being true to myself, and I may very well become resentful.

On the other hand, if working out a relationship is helping me, through insight and encouragement, to become more the person I really want to be, then I am going to feel happy and grateful about the process and the results.

Ah, I like that GDP. If the "relationship is helping me." That is an entirely different prospect from "My spouse is teaching me" or even "My spouse is helping me."

GDP and GG,

I think that is it in a nutshell. Being in a relationship is forcing some growth.

V.

Forcing rather than encouraging?

Hmmm, interesting. You are partially right about G. There were things she promised to change and never did, that is true. There were also things she changed only if I told her that the differences were too huge for us to maintain a relationship. In the end, I broke up with her precisely because I felt that I did not want to be in a relationship where I am constantly forcing the other person to change. I want them to change because they want to, not because I want them to.

I get the impression that you are doing with K what I did not want to do with G, that is keep "educating" him, drawing boundaries, etc. I get the feeling that you think that you are helping him grow and evolve, and perhaps you are right. But a part of me suspects that these cows will come home to roost one day, when he says "Enough of this, woman, I like myself the way I am and I am tired of being controlled in who I see, how I see them, etc". I see a very big potential for that in your situation.

AGG

Very big potential when its "cows" coming home to roast and not crows. LOL. That was a very funny typo. Or I'm just giddy.

Nah, no typo, I was trying to be funny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. It's actually chickens normally, isn't it?

AGG

Actually I suggested that he go ahead and have his "events" whatever and I would find something else to do if I didn't feel like interacting with his bunch. Quite fine with me to work on my hobbies while he has a beer downstairs with his pals.

I think a lot of times he pushes me into entertaining more frequently than I want to because he doesn't want to do it alone.

How many of you were asked to entertain people you find irritating or boring on a frequent basis? Maybe I'm just more of an introvert than I want to admit. I'm willing to entertain a couple of times a year - I just find it exhausting to entertain every other week...

V.

Yeah, but it's not just that... It extends to his drunken friends sleeping over, putting themselves in charge of the bar, making decisions on your landscape, XW shacking up at your home, etc etc...

AGG

AGG, you have a point there. If it was as simple as sunny just doing he own thing, she would. The fact that these friends are annoying and cross boundaries is a huge issue....especially since her bf doesn't think it's a problem.

I wonder sometimes that when we live a life alone, there is a clarity lacking that is present when we live a life together. Who knows.

I think my complaints may have made K more aware of things that he never considered before. Like the one friend J that irritates me so.

K never had any interaction professionally with J, but now J works at the same company as K. J apparently walked into K's closed door office while K was in the middle of a conference with a client and proceded to give him the details of how J hurt his foot on vacation.

??? Who could possibly be that unprofessional to walk into a closed office and then seeing that there was a meeting, begin to talk about inconsequentials?

K was highly offended that his buddy J would be so unprofessional - and additionally K takes his work very seriously and now he will be even further upset that others will perceive him differently if J's actions are talked about in-house.

So in a way I'm glad that K is seeing how J is such a boundary-less person and how J's behavior can be upsetting. It's more personal now that it is directly affecting K's work.

To me dealing with J is like dealing with John Belushi's character from animal house. Just knows no rules or social graces.

The other friends - it's probably more of a loyalty to his his ex-wife who is still in touch with that group than a real lack of social skills.

V.

Sunny,

I think you keep making excuses for K.

K paying attention to your kids is not enough. He needs to realize that they are part of the package, he needs to accept them period.

Let me tell you what happened to me last year. XWH was not paying alimony or CS, I was struggling financially. I literally had to quit school and find a job. I never asked for any help, M just stepped in and paid for my daughter’s contact lenses, he would come over to my house with groceries. My electric was almost shut off and he found out about it, he was upset that I didn’t tell him about it. I told him that it was not his responsibility, it was XWH’s. M’s respond to me was, “Why won’t you let me be responsible for you and the kids now? Would it be any different now or next year when we are married?” This came from a man with no children.

When a man/woman loves you, they will do anything for you and your children, without you having to ask.

FaithfullWife,

I love the way you and your H handle your finances, what a great idea! Kudos for you being the “Mom” role model for all the kids in your family.

Sunny,

I think you keep making excuses for K.

K paying attention to your kids is not enough. He needs to realize that they are part of the package, he needs to accept them period.

Let me tell you what happened to me last year. XWH was not paying alimony or CS, I was struggling financially. I literally had to quit school and find a job. I never asked for any help, M just stepped in and paid for my daughter’s contact lenses, he would come over to my house with groceries. My electric was almost shut off and he found out about it, he was upset that I didn’t tell him about it. I told him that it was not his responsibility, it was XWH’s. M’s respond to me was, “Why won’t you let me be responsible for you and the kids now? Would it be any different now or next year when we are married?” This came from a man with no children.

When a man/woman loves you, they will do anything for you and your children, without you having to ask.

FaithfullWife,

I love the way you and your H handle your finances, what a great idea! Kudos for you being the “Mom” role model for all the kids in your family.

OK so K is probably selfish and cheap.

I don't think it's as "simple" as that. Most qualities which could be given pejorative labels can be considered as strengths when seen from other perspectives. For example, "selfish" could be considered "non-interfering" in some contexts.

It appears to me that K has some pretty serious boundary issues, with problematic manifestations. But I still think the real question is whether the changes he is making to deal with these issues are being implemented to mollify you, because he believes they are (the minimum) needed to preserve your relationship, or whether he is undertaking them as an enthusiastic investment in self-improvement.

I can't tell. But I am concerned that he seems to have such a long way to go, and even if he is comfortable with the changes he has made to date, I wonder how far he will be willing to go.

Actually, I think this is much more of a lifestyle compatibility issue, and I don’t think it has to do with “growing” or “changing” in the benign sense of the word, nor do I think it has to do with K being selfish. Kseems to have a much higher need for group activities. Sunny is happy with entertaining once a quarter. That could be a problem. POJAing that could be difficult because they are pretty far apart. My guess is K thinks he’s made a big change by having friends over only every other week.

I seem to remember issues over the amount of “stuff” and the clutter factor. If I remember correctly, Sunny likes things much more organized and has a lower pain threshold when it comes to clutter. I have a personal bias when it comes to this difference…. I’ve come to realize that some people really need a lot of stuff surrounding them. It gives them a sense of security. Meanwhile, I get incredibly stressed.

Then there’s the money issue. Keeping the money separate won’t solve one of the undercurrents. Sunny, slap me if I’m wrong, but you seem concerned you may become resentful and envious if K buys himself all kinds of toys while you agonize over buying yourself a new pair of shoes because the kids will need shoes soon.

These are the sorts of issues that can make every day a huge effort. POJA is great so long as two people aren’t very far away on issues. If the partners are at opposite ends of the spectrum, POJA will feel like a sacrifice for BOTH of them. Heck, I even got Steve Harley to agree that on one item.