I thought the EXACT same thing. I can just see his shrug, "Yep, I TRIED to be nice, but whacko LilSis just has to be STUBBORN. She'd rather be stubborn than ride in comfort? Her loss, and the kids are the ones who end up squished in the backseat. LiLSis is so selfish, but what can I do?" Shrug again.

It's all about him so he can look like the hero; he could care less about our comfort or (more important) safety.

He did have this big thing about needing to TAKE CARE of us...making sure that the tires are good, etc. But I don't see why he can't have that need met by RT. She can be "taken care of" just as well as me and the boys...and she probably plays that up big time, exploiting his need.

What about the rats? I'm half of a mind to just let my neighbor drop in the food and keep the water bottle filled rather than deal with arranging to drop off the cage at ILs.

Opinions?

BTW...hmmmm...MEDC....what a devious mind...
My name for the minivan is not the affairmobile, it's the f**kwagon.

f**kwagon!! LOL!

stick w/ your vibe....you are comfortable w/ it and that's important.
the rats??....i vote let the neighbor check on them.
WH sending messages thru the kids...... i don't like it.
ignore it.

good morning.
just checking in...have not forgotten you....been very busy.
it's spring break for 2 of my children...the other one is next week.
makes doing going away impossible. you have fun.

No, Sis. RT CANNOT meet the the need of FAMILY SUPPORT. This is a consequence of PLAN B..you are not allowing him to meet this need. That's why I said that this is equivalent to me selling the house. My H wanted to rationalize to himself..to relieve the pain and shame of PLAN B... that we were FINE over there in our GRAND HOUSE even though he ABANDONED US. The same for your H. He wants to JUSTIFY AND RATIONALIZE that although he ABANDONED his family that he is still doing his part and you are OK. My H's concern was that I was going to move into a house below my standards and that he could no longer JUSTIFY to himself that WE WERE STILL OK. I was perfectly fine with finding a SMALLER HOUSE to suit JUST ME.

The GOOD NEWS is that he continues to perceive of you and the boys as being HIS FAMILY that he is supposed to TAKE CARE OF..All that is true. However, this shines a light on how he is NOT DOING HIS JOB.

Mimi -- hit it out of the park again! That is exactly what he's trying to do.

Plus rats / cat.
He's trying to show you how to behave. He's OFFERING to take care of the rats, while YOU refused to take care of the cat. Its making him feel like he's on the high road. He (thinks) he's being mature / "here's how you divorce amicably" / being the bigger man.

While he's trying to project on you that you are being petty and childish. Because of the silence, and not taking the cat.

I would nip in the bud his encroachment of Plan B. Sending messages through the kids is a NO NO. DS11 does NOT need the stress of being Dad's messenger. Imagine the confusion...Dad packages up his little offer. He's thinking of the boys, trying to be Super Dad. Message comes to Lilsis....who REJECTS it. GRRRRRR....another WH mess you have to clean up.

I am sure you did a good job of not reacting, but I think you will still need to explain to DS11 why you are not accepting Dad's offer.

Grrrr....just went through the overnight bag the kids brought home and in it was the cable/internet bill (one month past due) and license plate renewal for the Vibe. Both the cable and the plate are in HIS name. Both must have been in the pile of mail that WH picked up last week. I don't even look at that mail; if his name is on the envelope it goes in the pile.

There was no note or anything with the bills. What do I do?

Back to the above...no, I had no reaction to WH's kind offer of the minivan, I just cheerfully said, "No, we'll take the Vibe. It will be fun." I'm sure I'll get push-back from the kids after several hours squeezed in but too bad. That's the way it's going to be, boys. I'll be cheerful about it then, too. It's an adventure, after all.

And I can tell them that the Vibe uses less gas and gas prices have gone up. That will make sense to them in their kid minds. Perfect!

Again...what do I do about the offer to care for the rats? Take him up on it for the kids sake (who are imagining their poor lonely rats), or do I have the neighbor feed and water them?

Also (queston #3) how do I communicate that messages through the boys are unacceptable?

Help?

I'm THINKING that he is GAMING for you to CONTACT HIM..MAYBE..trying to PROVOKE you..MAYBE...

I don't know what to tell you about the license renewal because you do need that for sure..Is it due soon?..because I would forward all of his mail to his PARENTS' ADDRESS...put that mail in an envelope and send it there..for FUTURE MAIL, fill out the FORWARDING slip at the post office with his NEW ADDRESS...that's what I did...about the internet/cable..if it gets turned off, get a new account in YOUR NAME..

I defer to others' opinions regarding the communication with your son. I'm not sure you can CONTROL that. I would definitely IGNORE it and just proceed with your plans to drive the VIBE and take the rats to the neighbors.

THE MESSAGE TO WS: "YOU DO NOT EXIST TO ME"

Curious -- you said pile of mail that he picked up.
How is he getting that? Coming into your home to get it?
Can't you do a change of address?

How have those bills been handled in the past? Do you pay your utilities or has he?

I think you are experiencing a big wave of "testing". I'd put the e-mail, the message about the car, the sending the bills all into that category of Testing Plan B.

Since you're about to leave -- I would just do nothing and wait until you get home. It gives you some time to consider how you want to handle it.

Yep..totally agree with Lexx...

I think maybe while you are away give some thought to clarity in your boundaries...not your plan B boundaries per say...but what is yours on your property to deal with and what is his.

I am concerned that you may [if you choose to not respond but rather just handle everything they thrust at you] become the default garbage heap that doesn't complain.

What can you do to keep him and his stuff off your property and what can you do to make sure you don't provide acts of service for his affair life support?

The first time he saw the boys after returning from AZ he asked DS11 to get the mail for him...he stood outside while DS11 got the pile for him.

The utilities are auto paid out of a joint account. He has said nothing about any of that. The cable getting shut off is one thing...gas and electricity is another...I'll just keep an eye on it via the joint account as I have been doing on a month-to-month basis, moving money around between accounts to make sure there is JUST enough in there to cover the auto-pays: gas, electric, life insurance, auto insurance (on all three vehicles, BTW).

Phone and cable have been auto-paid from his Amex.

The license renewal isn't due until WH's b-day on April 15, so I have some time on that one, too. I notice that he removed the renewal forms for the truck and the minivan; I assume he's planning to pay those and the Vibe is "my" responsibility.

Okay...I've got enough stuff on my plate for today preparing to leave...I'll worry about that all when I get back. My neighbor can tend to the rats.

I haven't done a change of address because I wasn't sure they would be able to do that...so much stuff still comes to both of us...?? Can they/will they separate out the stuff that's only to him?

I'll ask today when I go over to the post office...my intermediary/BF forgot her phone charger and she needs me to mail it to her in AZ. Funny!

There are special washable markers available in party stores, used to write on car windows ... get one & have the boys write

"Washington DC or BUST" across the Vibe's rear window

makes the VIBE the cool <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> car

assign the boys the job of picking out CDs to listen to on the trip ... make the VIBE the <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> car

lots of ways to make the VIBE the car of choice

Pep

Could you be more specific? The locks are changed so he doesn't have access to the "property." He only comes here to drop off the kids.

In terms of my boundaries, by just keeping quiet, I don't see how I am enabling him in any way...??? Ignore the bills that he sent me (at least for the time being, because the license plate will be an issue in a couple of weeks), but as mimi said, if the cable gets disconnected, fine...I'll open my own. HIS name is the one on the bill currently, not mine. It's HIS credit rating...

Technically, I am the responsible party for the utilities...the orders say nothing about utilities, only the house payment. But since his name is on them, and he has not switched anything over...

I'm just sitting back...doing nothing....except moving money around in the joint accounts to make sure the bills are covered...and not depositing any money into those accounts, either. He also has access to those accounts; I have not changed the password, so he could check them as well.

So I'm really not "handling" anything that he's thrusting at me. Am I?

DARKNESS....THE WH DOES NOT EXIST TO YOU!!!

I'm not specifically addressing this event, but was stricken by a possiblity that the plan B testing could deliver a "I'd rather fix it than have to deal with you" message which could be taken advantage of and also be a backhanded method of contact [ala look what I made you deal with on my timeframe].

The property I was talking about was your personal boundary property which while not excluding plan B is not exclusive to it either.

I suggest just being aware of areas of life [say any joint accounts] where he can corner you and push his garbage on your property.

I agree that the best thing to do about THESE bills and whatnot is to just ignore them but there may be things out there that can't be ignored [and I'm not saying there definitely are]... you might give some consideration to whether you have a weak area and if so what you can do to reinforce it so that you can maintain the WH does not exist mindframe.

Yeah, what Mimi said - exactly what I was thinking.

Don't worry about the kids "squeezed" into the Vibe. 5 of us took a 20 day trip from Minnesota to Florida when the kids were 15, 12 and 5 in a Toyota Tercel wagon. Did they complain? Of course - that's their job! Did they have fun? They always talk about it with fond memories now. They don't remember a crowded back seat, but they do remember lots of other things about the trip.

Even if there were 8 feet between them you would still hear, "Mom, he's on my side!" and "Mom, he's poking/touching/hitting/kicking/throwing something at/looking at me!"

On this trip you will be creating memorites for your boys that last forever.

DS11 called WH and asked about him taking the rats. I wasn't aware of the call. I was a little aggravated about it, but when I told him that I would rather the neighbor just feed and water them, DS11 was visibly upset at the idea of the rats being here alone when dad was willing to take them...they'd be lonely, why can't we, they miss their mom (WH has the mother)....

Oh boy.

I relented. There was really no getting around it without looking very petty, even to DS11. I told DS11 that I would not be involved in any of the arrangements that would have to be made to get the rats from here to ILs, and that I would not rearrange the errands that we have to run in order to accomodate dad, and that he (DS11) would have to get the rat cage down by the back door.

So it looks like WH is coming by at 8:15 to pick them up.

Unfortunately, WH WILL get to provide the needed "family support" by caring for the rats. There was really no way around that....

I just wanted to go, to get ready today without any interaction with WH...not giving him the satisfaction of being Mr. Hero. Guess what? He wins again.

He may have "won" a battle, but he will most assuredly lose the war. You're doing great.

Don't sweat it, LS....they're JUST rats.

He's not taking care of your cats, getting your mail, newspaper, providing you w/ the F*** mobile....

Now, you go ahead and have some damned fun....to quote Pep.

~ Marsh

Oh, and no <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> out at our President if you visit the White House. LOL

We took a trip to DC when Clinton was Prez....and we didn't bring any cigars w/ us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We even brought home pics of him from the WH....and gave them to our Dem friends.

get matching T-shirts or caps for you & the boys ...

get them printed

"Team (your last name)"

make this fun fun fun

Pep

Just had a 90-minute sob fest with MIL. She called me; apparently knew we were leaving in the morning and wanted to check in.

I finally broke down and told her what I was concerned about...asked what their plans were for WH's living arrangements when they returned home. She said she didn't know. WH hasn't said anything to them.

I tried AGAIN to make my point about them enabling him by providing him a place to relive his adolescence; that doing so just prolongs the pain he is inflicting on her grandchildren and me...just prolongs him living out this fantasy without feeling any consequences.j

She just does not understand my POV. I don't know why she is so completely thrown by my opinion on this....other than denial. It seems perfectly clear to everyone else, doesn't it?

She maintains that no good would come of them "shunning" WH. I'm pulling out my hair here...I see it as a loving act! If he were an alcoholic...yada yada.

She wants what's best for the boys, and them coming to visit their dad at a familiar place is better for them. More hairpulling...what's best for the boys is for their dad to come to his senses and begin acting like an adult! And that he can't do that if he continues to live in their home.

She said that I sounded so angry and bitter and that I wanted to punish WH. I told her that was not true...I only want the real H to come out. That this man is someone that H would have been repulsed by. That I believe that H is somewhere inside, but WH needs to hit bottom and stop passively going along this path, because clearly, the current arrangement is not having any impact on him.

She says wait for God. I said in the meantime...how do I live my life?

She claimed that although she totally understood my need to go dark, it becomes adversarial because of my GF, who "hates" WH. Who would you have suggested? "Uncle P," she says. "Whom I have not spoken to since this summer? I'm supposed to trust him?" (she doesn't know that Uncle P and I have spoken very recently)

"His brother BIL?" referring to the one who, along with SIL, I go to church with frequently. Keep in mind, he's a doctor who works unholy hours and has three sons of his own, 11, 5 and 9 months. Little busy.

This is the point at which I was bawling. "Don't you understand? I need someone who is on MY SIDE. Someone who will protect ME. Not someone who will make excuses for WH or defend WH."

We went round and round.

About the last 20 minutes or so, though, I was so completely broken down...barely able to catch my breath...begging her--in all honesty and vulnerability--to tell me what SHE would do if she were in my place...she said she doesn't know since she had never been where I am. I told her that I wouldn't let her take the easy way out, if she had to make the call, what would she do? How would she protect her kids if they were hers?

She said she could hear how painful this was for me. I told her the pain she was hearing right now is the pain that I feel every moment of the day.

She asked if I could just recieve her love, because she would continue to love me. I told her that I loved her as well, and long to have a relationship with her, but I don't know how we can...there will always be this elephant in the room.

I told her I don't know who to trust anymore, and I don't understand their family...in my family we talk and communicate and aren't afraid to disagree. I pointed out that every call in the last 3-4 months has been from me...she does not call me.

She said how do you define love (more globally). I told her it is more than just words, and more than just feelings. Actions also define love.

She promised that she and FIL would discuss it, and we hung up, agreeing to talk when I returned.