I disagree with my girl, SL, on this.

NO, IT' NOT CHEATING...

But....PLAN B is a part of the MBing strategy....it's about PROTECTING your MARRIAGE...so that there is a chance for RECOVERY...so for many reasons other than CHEATING, having a single guy plant a tree or do other errands is a BIGGY, IMO...

Reasons to include: your vulnerabiltiy during this time..there's a real risk of the visit becoming longer and asking him to do other things...this is how AFFAIRS do start...he will get off on assisting you as a WOMAN..he is not deaf, dumb or blind..and you will naturally get off on having a MAN to help you...your WH will see this as being DISRESPECTFUL and it will affect their friendship..I know, he is not to be RESPECTED at this point..but let's just say that the M is RECOVERED, will they be able to be friends again?...AND what if this gives your H the justification to MOVE ON at a time when he is missing you...seeing you as MOVING ON now yourself...let him produce his OWN ANXIETY about this...NOT UP IN HIS FACE...STEVE HARLEY TOLD ME ABSOLUTEDLY NOT TO DO THE 180 stuff with my H who had issues with RESPECT and ADMIRATION...

I could go on and on...just too many PROBLEMS with this, IMO...




I'm not understanding your point here, SL?

Did you LET GO OF HOPE? I don't get the impression that you ever did.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mimi, I'll give you that one. You are right, a person in this sort of situation may find their own way into an affair. Sis is not immune, as none of us are.

About hope, I was pointing out that she's not out of it yet, because she would know. I don't necessarily believe in fanning the flames forever, but you can do it for some time. I don't know how long, because it's only been two years for me and WH; it's a personal journey within the confines of MB principles.

I, personally, am not suggesting any 180 stuff, I was never a user or felt it necessary. I was suggesting that she live her life as if her WH doesn't exist. No GAMES.

It's more an issue of WHO I could ask for help when I need it, not as a game. I feel a little awkward about asking someone who is married, and D is the only single guy I know, and he's offered to help out. I could ask Mr. Neighbor, but he does so much already. I don't have any men in my family. It's a legitimate question. Any advice or suggestions?

And that is exactly the question I was asking, about "knowing." Do moments of doubt, or even whole days of doubt, mean that there's no hope left? No...I will KNOW. I will feel it. This is what I am hearing, and it sounds right to me. I couldn't articulate it very well, but you answered it in a way I understand.

The 180 stuff doesn't ring true for ME personally, either. And I stink at games. I'm just no good at 'em. Parking the car...that kind of stuff...is just sort of a fun distraction from the boredom of Plan B. And like others have pointed out, I'm a do-er.

You know what? I still feel like I'm waiting. What's up with that? What am I waiting for? I'm busy, I'm living my life, I'm doing fun things, the boys are happy, I'm hanging out with friends, making plans. There's just this little voice back there, way in the back of my mind, whistling and tapping her fingers. Sometimes patiently, sometimes checking her watch, sometimes noisily, sometimes quietly. Sort of like a holding pattern.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Is that Hope? Or is that the "knowing" thingy...when the voice is quiet, then I will "know"? And if that voice is there, does that mean that I am NOT living life as if doesn't exist?

Hmmmmm.....

Uhhhh...I'm not sure. You may actually NEED the remedial Plan B shortbus class!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Okay, first, you ARE living life "as if" WH doesn't exist, but your head (and apparently that little voice) know that IRL he's does still exist. Does that make sense? And I think that little voice sort of IS hope because the ultimate, long-term goal of a good Plan B is that the M is restored. So IRL it is very much like you are in a holding pattern because you are biding your time until either your M is ended or it is restored. A portion of Plan B is to show the WS what it's like to have OP meet all their EN's...but another portion of it is to show the BS that life does go on and what it might be like to survive on their own.

Now, LilSis--have ya been reading IHC's post today? She found out today that the OW is pregnant, right? And now she KNOWS that it's really and truly, for real, OVER because she has promised herself (sort of inside herself) that if that one thing ever happened, she would not tolerate it. You KNOW that it's over because there is one boundary that you've set that is your promise to yourself, and you KNOW that if you don't honor your boundary this time that you will not protect YOURSELF! Up to that point, you sort of give a little here...give a little there...and there are some things you're willing to compromise (and a whole lot of pride you're willing to swallow!). But you will KNOW it is really and truly, for real, OVER when you sorrow a sorrow because the WS went beyond the last boundary you set for that last shred of your heart.

Does that make sense?



--CJ

Great post, Mama Bee.

One quibble:


I would argue that this is a useful side effect of Plan B, not a goal.

Such a slight quibble that I shouldn't have even made it, because I don't want to detract from the awesomeness of your post. (But I did, anyway. Back to the shortbus, I guess. Sigh.)

I had this QUIBBLE, too..'cause I don't think this is the HARLEY VIEWPOINT....

I don't recall ever READING this anywhere...

eh, just stop thinking about him!

think of an enjoyable way to keep yourself busy this week-end, LS!
the new shrek movie comes out. LOL

This is a quote from Dr. Harley. The way I have understood his point of view is that PLAN B is risky and that concerns him..that the SEPARATION FACTOR concerns him..that it should be the LAST RESORT because of this..that he does not think that the spouses being SEPARATE is BENEFICIAL...with the GOAL being MARITAL RECONCILIATION as is stated in the last paragraph....

I would try to do it MYSELF. I learned to do so much during PLAN B. I became a GARDENER like my HUSBAND...

But..if you are not able, how about asking a MARRIED COUPLE over with the H helping you with his wife there. No married friends?

Oh, I'm doing it all on my own. But I don't think I can dig this hole...but I'm going to give it a shot. I'm pretty motivated.

Great, great post Mama Bee. Yes...all that you said makes sense, and I appreciate you putting it into context like that. You sort of put those puzzle pieces into place that I couldn't quite get to fit.

And I am feeling the side effect of "making it on my own."

Perhaps it would be helpful for me to think about what my boundary is. RT won't get pregnant because (thank God) WH got "fixed" after DS8 was born. I wonder if the boundary--or line in the sand--is one that is consciously established, or if again it is a matter of "knowing" when it is crossed.

Busy, busy day today.

Nia...you got it, girl! Where's that darn switch, anyway?!? Oh...and you can be sure we are at Shrek this weekend. DS8 put it on the calendar. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As you all know, I'm sold out on MarriageBuilders...building marriages to last a lifetime...

So the way I interpret it..the way I READ it..is that Dr. HARLEY REGRETS folks having to go into PLAN B since it is so RISKY...but sees it as a LAST RESORT to work TOWARDS..MARITAL RECOVERY..and NOT DIVORCE...

So I would hope for you SIS to be PREPARING FOR RECOVERY..not to be trying to look for your BOUNDARY...

Again this is my perspective/viewpoint..and I own it...

I believe that GOD brought you and your HUSBAND TOGETHER.."WHAT GOD HAS BROUGHT TOGETHER..is what the vows say..and EVIL FORCES are trying to keep you apart...try not to give into any of the NEGATIVE THINKING..which is certainly understandable..TRY TO FOCUS ON THE POSITIVE...

Of course I HOPE that WH and I do have the chance for recovery, but it is a very real possibility that it won't happen. At some point, recovery will no longer be possible...say WH and RT get married.

I guess my interpretation of what others have said would be that I will KNOW when I've reached the end. So to answer my own question, I won't TRY to anticipate when or how that might occur. I won't try to anticipate an explicit boundary, it will be a gut thing.

I do not look forward to crossing that line, but like it or not there ARE two possible outcomes here: recovery together or recovery alone. NON-recovery is not an option for me.

While I still HOPE for marital recovery (the little voice), Plan B for ME is honestly preparing for either outcome, and getting to a place where I am strong and assured with whatever happens. It is about accepting that it is out of my control, in God's hands.

I'm at the office, so I can't refer to it directly, but I think even Dr. Harley refers to this in the last of his enumerated reasons why his plans (A and B) are effective. The final point had something to do with the fact that if Sue didn't return to whats-his-name (the BH), then the BH would have an empty Love Bank anyway, so divorce would be more acceptable to him.....???

Something like that??

For mimi....I hope you understand where I am coming from. I still dearly, dearly hope for the return of my DH. I love that man so...the one I married. An incredibly honorable, decent, caring, admirable man. I'm trying to be strong, though, too, trying to live like he doesn't exist (because he doesn't now) and trying to carve out the best LilSis that I can...because I will need to be really, really strong if DH comes back, and I will need to be really, really strong if he doesn't. As you said, it's a RISK, a GAMBLE. I may lose that gamble...and I would be in denial if I didn't acknowledge that possibility, as much as it pains me.

Lexxxy has called me on this...protecting myself.

And in a way, it IS focusing on the positive...the positive ME. Taking today for what it is...I am alone, and DH is gone, but I am going to live my best life, my best today, and hope for--even EXPECT--the best tomorrow...whatever that tomorrow brings.

This is from my heart, mimi...I hope you can hear that?

I agree with this TOTALLY...

I guess I'm HEARING..PREPARATION for DIVORCE, specifically..or PREPARATION for something BAD to happen..rather than just FOCUS ON GETTING STRONG TODAY...

For me, not wanting to assume that this may be true for you, if I did not FOCUS ON THE PRESENT during PLAN B, then I WOULD HAVE LOST HOPE..Does that make sense?...For me, ANY THOUGHT OF DIVORCE..even though that was certainly a POSSIBILITY..greatly PAINED ME..and I REFUSED TO EVEN THINK ABOUT IT...or else I could not have done PLAN B...

The ramifications of D would have been pretty bad for me, as MD is an equitable state, I would probably have lost my home, and not really had much to show for it, so I did think about D(not to mention my lawyer calling me regularly to see if I wanted to file). It was possible for me to lose half of my retirement, and, post D, I would NOT get any alimony to help secure another home (high cost of living in this area).

I was an apartment dweller most of my life, as well as moving over and over and over again, so having my own home was a big WANT for me. Need even.

Now, that being said, I didn't focus on the far off future. I focused on today and this week. Having my young son did set me up to think about the future for him, so that did make Plan B difficult, but I survived it and began to think positively. It's not that easy to do, but it is attainable.

I can see how meeting with the lawyers and the real life trauma can infringe on your Plan B; take you down a couple of notches. In my darkness, I struggled with one step forward, two steps back for a while. Things began to even up when I learned to let go of WH. I learned some valuable things, very valuable.

There are also some here who have to struggle with custody issues, even on a weekly basis, so that can't be easy to maintain your darkness, much less sanity. I guess I consider myself lucky that, for the most part, custody and visitation ran pretty smoothly, so I could just be quiet, dark.

That totally makes sense, mimi, and I'm so glad you understand.

I think perhaps the difference between you and I is that I am already facing the reality of divorce and its implications. The papers are filed; we've had one court date with another scheduled. That is part of my reality today. All the ugly stuff...health insurance, retirement, the house, the cars, the utilities, how I am going to manage financially...it's already hitting the fan. Part of TODAY, the PRESENT includes all of that.

We have a presentation at a staff meeting about health insurance. I used to tune it out...now I am paying close attention because I'm going to lose mine thru WH. I get a notice in the mail with my new car insurance rates (because WH separated our policy), so I have to make arrangements for that to get paid. I have to make time for someone to appraise the house so that it can be worked into the settlement. I have to go to a session to learn how FOC works. Work wants me to go to full time, and I have to think about how I am going to manage to get the kids to and from school, alone, long-term, without backup.

I am slapped in the face with the reality of preparing for divorce every day. I think sometimes that makes it harder to imagine recovery, why I doubt it more...because what is true in my present reality is so destructive, so anti-recovery...and it is being driven by WH.

The wheels are in motion, and I can do nothing to stop them. It is all up to WH. I can drag my heels and have my attorney drag his, but we can't stop it, and the court forces me to respond.

I would love to just focus on today without all of that in my reality. I don't WANT to contemplate that divorce is inevitable, but I have to prepare for it anyway, because I need to protect me and the boys.

In spite of all that, I am not losing hope. That voice is still there, waiting, twiddling her thumbs. Hoping that WH will stop this before it is too late for me.

But I disagree with your statement that you could not have done a Plan B...

I have to do what I have to do...and I bet that you would have done the same if FWH would have filed. You are strong, and you believed. You would have held on to your hope, but you would have attended to the business that needed to be done. I think of it as business...an unsavory business that I deal with as little as possible, avoid as much as possible, but I do the minimum that I'm required to do. Just like you selling your house...had to be done.

And yes, it is INCREDIBLY painful. I was trembling that day that I went into the courthouse; could barely swallow, and I was so torn up the night before that my mom drove and hour to rescue me and make sure my kids were fed.

But once I'm away from that ugliness, I lock it up in its ugly little box. Compartmentalization can be a good thing!

Sis,

reading your post just leveled me. Took me back to those ugly feelings. You know what, you will survive this, no matter what. You don't really have much of a choice, but you will survive in fine style.

I understand about the going full time. I just cut my schedule back so that I can drop DS off at he bus stop this fall and pick him up. That leaves me with a 6.5hour day. I just wanted my son to have the luxury of his mother being home after school; I never had that.

I never thought of Plan B as a place that life just exists in suspended animation; you've got to do the legal limbo, and take care of the home and the kids and live your own existence, juggle, juggle, juggle; and make some very serious, life altering decisions ON YOUR OWN.

Plan B was insulation for me, buffering out the white noise a WS produces, while giving me some peace to grieve and make those decisions; to get back to a place of strength and confidence. There is not one person who hasn't asked the same questions as you. I know I asked them (about Plan B).

SL:
This belongs in the Notable Posts thread, or at least in some Field Guide to Plan B.

It describes it perfectly for me. Perfect. Exactly.

So for everyone (all Bees) who ask those questions, here's our answer. Once again, we are not alone in our confusion, and we can look to those who have weathered the storm for inspiration.

Thank you, SL.

I agree with this about PLAN B...it being a SAFE PLACE to build STRENGTH and CONFIDENCE.

Remember, I'm the one who put her DREAM HOUSE up for sale and that's DREAM HOUSE with a CAPITAL D...so I was moving on AS IF....just like you..

But for me, PLAN B was most definitely not PREPARATION FOR DIVORCE..that's the main point of what I was saying....

My feeling was that if my H DIVORCED me, that it would be a MAJOR MISTAKE and a MAJOR LOSS for HIM...and that he would LIVE TO REGRET THAT DECISION...and he would know that I did every thing possible to RECOVER OUR MARRIAGE..INCLUDING PLAN B...

He continues to THANK ME...

Nor I, I was in it to win it! I was prepared for the worst, but still hoped for the best outcome. Divorce was something I thought about, I will admit it, but I never got far beyond the words or the idea of what MAY occur. I still wanted my M, still do.

lil sis

i am always reading your thread and even though i dont comment as much as i should (am not one to give advice on anything right now) you are doing great!
i admire you! i know excatly those feeling you feel i go day to day with questions in my mind.
do i want to keep living like this? i feel so dark and alone not because of lack of friends but the lack of feeling loved again by that someone special. even though i talk to my dh sometimes i wish i didnt. because i feel that there is always hope for us.
but anyway over the past weekend i did my yard. i was sawing off branches, mowing, making a flowerbed, planting flowers and rosebushes and pulling weeds.
i was wore out but now everytime i stand on my porch i look at the wonderful job i did by myself. i didnt know i had it in me. dh came by early mothers day while i was still in bed and left landscaping lights on my porch for mothers day. i wish i could have seen his face when he seen my yard that yes i can survive with out him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
so i hope sincerly you can plant that tree yourself. i dont know much about tree planting. i just want you to feel the same kind of feeling i get when i look what i done.
i wished you lived close i would help you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
good luck on that. and please dont stop posting on your thread you helped me alot by just reading how you are doing.
it helps me to know that it is a process to go thru and i know that what i feel is normal.
keep you in my prayers
bsj