Lem: I didn't misunderstand you (i don't think); I just wanted to make sure you didn't misunderstand ME...I'm moving forward, and it's hard, but I welcome differing points of view, even if it means that I have to bite my lip a little while I read it. I didn't take it as criticism, I see it as your observation.

And it ain't much of a parade to rain on anyway, is it?

LG: Thank you for expressing what you did. Really. Thank you. One day, I WILL have an answer. It will happen, whatever the answer is, it will come, it WILL. Patience, young padawan. Trust.

******

So, this afternoon (while I was posting earlier, as a matter of fact), two calls come from Private Caller. Which means (a) sister calling from work (too late), (b) the appraiser who is trying to make an appointment (he'd leave a message, right?), or (c) WH.

I ignore.

I'm outside chatting with the neighbor and I can hear it ringing again. Roll my eyes. I hear it ringing again. I go grab the phone, and the latest call was from one of DS's friends. The first missed call was another Private Caller.

So when I come in, I check my cell. There is a VM. It's WH. "DS11, it's dad. I just got your message and I'm calling you back to see what you wanted. Give me a call back." (something like this).

I hadn't realized that DS11 had called WH. Granted, I had been out mowing (again) and could have missed something. So very cheerfully asked DS11 if he had called dad. No, he said, with a "what are you talking about" look. "Not even from school to day or anything?" No, he says.

I scroll through the redial and there are no call to WH or ILs on either phone, or from my cell. (DS11 wouldn't have a clue how to clear that)

An hour or so later, I ask DS11 again...you're sure? You know it's fine with me if you call dad. No...I'd tell you, mom, I really didn't.

So MAYBE it's an old message that WH's just now getting??? WH is pretty meticulous about his phone. Whatever. But either way, why would he leave a VM on my cell and not on the home phone?

I am sooo overthinking this. Whatever. There is an hour-long Office on, and Grey's Anatomy. I'm going to chill out and watch TV (like everyone else, I'm bettin')

It is WH non-stop trying to get around Plan B.

There is no point in analyzing it to death. It is what it is.

Protect yourself.

I'm tellin' ya ... Lousy G is correct ... BE AWARE WH is going to do something to try & coax you to end da'B PLAN

and it is gonna happen soon

the cabin
the dog
walking in the door
phone calls
emails
his mud'er (MIL)

just keep your wits about you

Listen to Pep if you don't want to listen to me..and Lexx..and, of course, LG...

TYPICAL WH, ALIEN BEING... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Did someone say something? It's so DARK that I can't hear you...

And quoting Mortarman:

The PERSONAL RECOVERY part is the SENSE OF POWER that you FEEL KNOWING ALL THIS..and HE IS SOOOO CLUELESS!!!

YOU HAVE A PLAN!!!

Padawan:

Trust you must.

There is no try, only do.

I'm game for some lightsaber activity....

Many clouds tonight so its dark.

Always enjoyed that with my son.

Destroyed quite a few lightsabers along the way.

Seems Flamingo would always buy more.

Yoda

Get your boys a cell phone.
So WH has no need to call you.

you guys keep calling him typical... well I agree...but I think typical for someone in a LTA that has filed divorce will be to follow through with his divorce...
Is it possible he misses Lilsis...yep...
Is it also possible that he doesn't like this not being in control thing even more...yep. See, I don't see this man coming around in time to save his M, I just don't. I also do not see it ever working out with vermin [email]cr@p.[/email] But is he typical...most likely, but that isn't necessarily a good thing in this case.
I agree with Lexxy about the cell phone thing... or you can even have a phone line installed in the kids room. A vonage line will cost about $14 a month with no upfront costs.

I sometimes feel bad that I am not seen as a "supporter" in situations like this. It would be easier to spin everything in a positive light like some do here.....kind of dissapointed in myself commenting on this thread. What is gonna happen is gonna happen.....

Best wishes

LM

me likes dis 'tude <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Medc....Lem....

What's your point?
Bottom line, what are you trying to say?
Give up?

I'm not getting it....

Lemon:

Your right:

What is gonna happen is gonna happen.....

LS has control of her part.

WH has control of his.

No sunshine enema's from me, really.

I think it is very easy for this WH to proceed to D. It's the path of least resistance.

Been there, Done that.

Got off of it.

And I'm in a much better place now.

And I sense that same ambivalance in LS's WH.

I don't get that same sense from a number of other BS's posters around here about thier WH's.

That's my take.

LG

beats me Lex

was wondering the same thing

I wonder the same thing about you guys sometimes too. What is your point about all this.
My intention is to give Lilsis support... what I consider support no matter what others feel...and support to me is offering her an honest assessment of what I see happening right now. If you don't like it.... then ignore it.
I have been down this road on these boards before where some of the people questioning me right now were dead wrong about a situation... but I got questioned and slammed for my advice which, in hindsight, turned out to be right.
As I said earlier... I hope I am wrong.... but I just don't see this having the hoped for outcome. And to me... it is supportive to offer care in the face of astounding odds. I care about Lilsis and her kids. I feel for what she is going through and direct her the best way I know how. Again... to those that don't like it.... you have your views, I have mine. And my experience on these boards is that no one is right all the time.... so it is good to have different perspectives.
Would I suggest giving up right now? Not unless Lilsis wants to. But if I were her family, I would be advising her that I believe it is time to let go... yes. And that if he comes back at a later time, you can consider what to do at that point. But as far as the forum goes... I am just not blowing a sunshine enema for anyone.... that to me is not caring.
Divorce is all too likely an outcome in a situation like this....no matter how well the plans are worked. I don't think Lilsis is there yet... but there are people here that have become so enamoured with this process that they do not know when to... or when to advise others that it might be a good idea to let go. I have seen people on here literally saying they couldn't take it anymore and were at their breaking point... and others would say... just plan B or plan A a while longer...in my opinion, that is baloney... there are more important things to be salvaged than a marriage IMO. When this process appears as though it is exacting a toll.... or that there is little hope for a different outocome, I will call it as I see it. You all can temper my view with your own and there will be times when you are right and times when I am right... but the bottom line is that the person is cared for.
I agree with LG's last post.

MEDC

I don't feel that guiding Sis in her recovery and filling her in about what my WH did and what other WH's have done is a sunshine enema. My Plan is to bolster Sis' Plan B and give her what knowledge I have gained to do with what she wishes. Sis knows the score on her end, but hopes for better, and that's okay IMO. She will detach, as it is a natural result of not being around someone for a period of time, be it a friend or lover. It will happen, Sis.

... just keep swimming...

People! People!

We were having the same debate in another thread...still's thread I think. My point is this: it is my experience that there are three kinds of WS's in this world:

1) The WS who sees the error of their ways relatively quickly and return to the M repentant and willing to help their BS's recover.

2) The WS who is a bit more addicted and who usually returns to the M after the A ends. This WS is like bobpure's WW--they are mean and venomous, their OP breaks up with them after several months (a bit after Plan B starts), and when they first return, have no desire to help the BS...they just want to "pretend it didn't happen" and still feel pretty entitled etc. These WS's were further into the fog, but even they gradually wander out and the M can become more healthy and more mature if both the BS and WS work on their own issues...and work on their M's issues. When the BS of a category 2 goes into Plan B, often that BS is coming from a somewhat healthy self-view, has had a somewhat healthy, functional relationship dynamic, and just has to deal with a bit of self-esteem issues from the rejection feelings of their spouse's A.

3) The WS who has a personality disorder or mental illness, where the M is dysfunctional to begin with and where the BS is probably codependent. Maybe the WS has some other addiction as well (abusive, alcoholic, etc.). This WS goes deeply into the fog because it is the unhealthy way that they know how to operate. They stubbornly refuse to admit, to themselves or others, that they made a mistake--and it is not within their abilities to take personal responsibility for their own choices. Instead they blame, project, and deflect...and wander deeper and deeper and deeper into the fog. Eventually, I personally believe that they start to believe their own lies because they can not face what they had done or face themselves. These are the WS's that you see walking away from a loving spouse and children, going into a relationship with a hooker or a druggy, where the situation is CLEARLY worse in FogLand and yet they don't/won't return.

Usually in the case of category 3, the BS is in almost as bad shape as the WS, because the BS is used to a dysfunctional, codependent way of having a relationship. Thus, when this BS goes into Plan B, they usually have to not only deal with the normal self-esteem and rejection issues, but they usually also have to deal with learning how to have a HEALTHY self-view, how to have a HEALTHY relationship, how to be functional, how to be interdependent rather than codependent...on and on! So this BS has a LOT TO LEARN about themself in addition to affair issues!

* * * * *

Personally, I think that LilSis wa/is hoping that her WH is category 2 and is probably wondering right now if maybe he's category 3. Clearly lemonman and MEDC think that he's category 3...and that's cool because that's their opinion. Now, it's up to LILSIS to decide. At this time she may be weighing the evidence. She might even be living on "hope" (that's not the healthiest option but it is an option that people do pick). I think as her friends, the best thing we can do is guide her and encourage her so that she has the strength and courage to face HERSELF and THE TRUTH ruthlessly.

Faithfully,



CJ

I probably don't have time to reply in the manner that this discussion deserves.

MEDC and Lem: I hear you, and I respect your point of view. I have the exact same concerns that you voice. You seem to believe that this is a fruitless effort. It may be. I get that; I struggle with that. But I'm not ready to throw in the towel, and I'm going to continue to work the plan until I achieve a comfort level...my head and heart in sych.

I sense an urgency on your part for me to face the truth (as you see it). I guess I'm not getting what the urgency is all about???

As Lex asked...what would you have me do? Remember, I'm a DO-er.

Please don't feel that you have to muzzle yourselves or provide sunshine enemas. I am open to all points of view. I will say again....you have articulated fears that I have as well. I'll call YOU on something, Lem: don't chicken out on my thread just because there's a difference of opinion. I can take it.

I'm just not ready to change my strategy. I'm going to work the plan for now. It's not doing any harm; in fact being dark has allowed me to get healthy. I was a wreck at the end of Plan A.

I do not feel AT ALL that I am clinging to hope at the expense of my own personal mental health. The opposite, in fact. I'm trying to figure out how to function in TODAY, how to deal with the business of divorce, how to raise two boys, how to take care of the house and the yard and work. What will be will be.

CJ: He may be Category 3, but what is SO VERY disconcerting is that he never showed any evidence of it prior to d-day. Slightly P/A, but not overly so. I certainly wouldn't stand for that kind of behavior any longer. And RT is not a druggy, etc. She's Ms. Soccermom (puke). You are right, thought, I hope he is Cat 2, but he may be a Cat 2 that just doesn't leave the fog for whatever reason.

And silent: This is my Plan as well. The debate about the purpose of Plan B...irrelevant, I think. Of course I would LOVE to have the chance for recovery, but I am FULLY aware of all of the obstacles to that, and I am FULLY aware that it is NOT up to ME.

So...what do I do? the best I can, every day. I'll continue to detach, in time. Not there yet, and it is a slow process. I don't think it is healthy to try to speed it up; it will happen in its own time.

I am trusting silent on this, because what she says seems so on target for me; it resonates. And she was also in my shoes not too long ago...she detached, she was ready. It ended up--fortunately for her--that PWC removed his head from the fog. But even if he hadn't she would have been okay.

Either way, silent came out a winner. This is what I want for me.

Sis, I'm still working on myself; that hasn't stopped, and probably won't EVER stop. There is always another perspective, another way to do, and I'm a learner, like a sponge.

For me detachment quite literally, felt like dropping the world from my shoulders. I let go, not so I could lose, but so I could win, whatever the outcome. When I did that, the last vestage of me that was trapped under the weight of all of that 'stuff', that I can't control, popped out and has been bouncing around ever since. I actually feel good.

My work now will have a lot to do with patience, as PWC has some catching up to do, probably 2 years +, to start. He'll get there, as long as he wants it. Same for you.