You are right, BR, things get quieter, but oh what wonderful, wise words and advise come through among the sweet silence of the crickets.

I just read through your post, SB's, and CJ's quickly...not with the depth that I will later. I just wanted to share that I had such a good day...

I was hosting the poker girls at my house tonight, light supper/pot-luck style and cards. I left work early to get my hair cut, got a call from DS11 that he had a tremendous rash on his trunk, so I brought him to the doc and still had time to make the taco salad for the girls. Set the boys up with veggie burgers and we girls hung out and played cards (badly) and had drinks, chips, ice cream and taco salad (not in that order).

We have so much fun, this group. They are all wonderful women, each with our own flaws and weaknesses, with our own tragedies and struggles--some on-going, some in the past, yet we can sit around the table and laugh, make jokes, care for one another, and admire the flowers.

The simple things.

With that eye of simplicity, taking inventory won't be such a hard thing.

I'm starting now, and I'm going to use all of the tools and strategies and wisdom that you have shared.

Hey LS,
Sounds like a fun evening at your house.

to go along with CJ's post, my son has been telling me about this really great book. It is called Now, Discover your strengths. You read the first part, then go online and take the test, then you finish the book. He says it is amazing to read and to find out what your strengths really are.

I read the first chapter last weekend while he was home. It talks about building on your strengths and not focusing on your weaknesses and trying to improve in those areas. Very interesting. I need to pick one up for myself. You have to have your own copy as the tests are only good for one person.

I know you have a long reading list, but this might be a good one to add.

LS:

What was the rash? Nothing serious I hope?

Sounds like you had fun playing cards.

We can bash your WH or RT if you would like some more posts on your thread.....

I'll start:

>
>
>
>

No, I won't.

Because this is a thread for you, not the other two.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LG

this book:

HERE

is a great one to read about finding gratitude for simple abundance

Pep ~ that was one of my "homework" books assigned by my sponsor =)

Sis ~ I made the smart [censored] comment about the lack of posting because I wanted to point out that it is very easy (and very unhealthy) to spend your precious energy externally. Other people's drama is addicting - there's nothing like a good finger pointing, inventory taking, blaming session of somebody else. So naturally, you get alot of posting on your thread...as long as the entertainment factor is high - everyone wants to get their 2 cents in.

When it's time to knuckle down and do some real work - the thread suddenly gets silent. I just want you to be aware of this tendency - because of course, your WH is going to do something stupid soon and you'll post, and the WH dissection will begin again. Don't get sucked up in it. See - awareness! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> you are growing!

You are right - in the chirping of the crickets, God and wisdom can be heard.

I think you have a great IC, so alot of this self reflection and self inventory can be done with your IC. You are doing great. Do not fear! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

minor t/j sorry LS..Hi BR!

Also waves to Rosey!

Signed,
Jo (a die hard BR fan)

Hiya Sis, sounds like a great evening with the girls. Isn't it nice to just be YOU, not mom, not wife, not BS, not any of that, but just Sis, hangin with the girls?

I love the way BR sums things up, she is really a good task master. You work on you, Sis. I know you've heard it over and over again. I like CJ's disentanglement. This is really what I did, I think detachment takes you too far away from the M, so I definitely did not do that.

Enjoy the flowers!

Thanks, LG. The rash was nothing more than a reaction to trying out the neighbor's hot tub the other night (as I suspected, thus the lack of concern).

As I would rather hear crickets now and focus on me and enjoying the gifts in my life...I'm reluctant to even post this, but I'd like some sensible advice....WITHIN the context of "where I am" right now.

This weekend is bound to bring some issues. BIL/SIL from Fargo will be coming to town at some point--this is an assumption, but a fairly safe one as they come every year for Mem Day. Typically, they stay (twin boys, 11yo and one girl 6yo) at ILs. However, with WH living there, things are a bit crowded.

When they came at Christmas, I invited the boys to camp out with my boys in the attic for the duration of the visit. Worked out great, space-wise for the ILs, and fun-wise for the cousins.

So I've admittedly wasted some of my energy thinking about how this will come down this time around.

I am at a place right now where I don't feel comfortable communicating or interacting with anyone who is accepting or tolerant of WH's actions. It is too frustrating and too painful. I don't need either. So I am choosing to not put myself in those situations.

An appropriate boundary, yes?? About ME. And what *I* will or will not do. Not attempting to control others, but to recognizing what I need for ME.

Communicating with someone who tolerates or accepts WH's actions is, for me, like talking to a brick wall. It is a fruitless waste of energy. WH's actions are UNacceptahble and INtolerable to me, and *I* don't wish to engage in a debate about the veracity of that statement. It is my absolute truth, I own it, I don't want to discuss it.

For the most part, I have no problem maintatining this boundary. My friends, family and co-workers have no alliegience to WH so it is not an issue.

The ILs (MIL, FIL, BILs and SILs) are in another category...not by their choosing, but by circumstance. They may not accept his actions, but --at some level --they tolerate it. If not overtly, then subtly, by ignoring what is happening, pretending it isn't happening, or not challenging what is happening. MIL has defended him outright.

I realize that these are my perceptions (with the exception of MIL's defense). SO: how fair is it of me to enforce my boundary based on MY perceptions?

Please call me on it if you see me just trying to rationalize and justify.

I know this is my fear talking-and my Plan B, too--but I want to be okay in my own head with not communicating with or interacting with any of the ILs when they are in town.

In a D, this is how it would be. I am not part of the family anymore. The cousins won't come to my house to play. I won't be hosting birthday parties. I won't be bringing the fruit salad to the picnic. I won't be a part of it at all.

Part of me just thinks it's petty or mean to be so firm. I don't want to be a b!tch, but I can also see that it would be very easy for his whole family to pretend that everything is okay if I just made nice.

I feel like making nice is a way for the family to deny the reality of how deeply the boys and I have been hurt, how we STILL hurt.

Bottom line...I don't want to be hurt anymore. And I don't think I can communicate or interact with them at all and NOT be hurt. Even if no one mentions WH's name, I will still feel that distance, that knowledge that this isn't part of MY life anymore. And I know that's ME...that's MY fear...but I still have it.

Ideally, I'd like to communicate something like this to SIL from Fargo:

"Look, SIL. WH has filed for D and is choosing to break up our family to be with his adulteress. He has gone to tremendous lengths to insure that this will happen, seemingly without regard to the devastaing impact of that choice. Every single day, the boys and I pay the steep, steep price of his choice.

Because we are paying so dearly, it is simply too frustrating and too painful for me to be around those who in ANY way tolerate WH's behavior.

The kind of relationship that you choose to have with WH is your business, not mine. I only ask that you to respect my belief it is not in my best interests, or the best interests of the boys, for me to experience any more pain or frustration than I already have. And because of the relationship that you and BIL have with WH, I feel certain that until WH has a change of heart, a relationship between you and I will ultimately result in pain and frustration for me.

For my sake and the boys', I am simply not willing to take that chance. I sincerely hope that you enjoy your visit."

I'm asking about this not simply in terms of Plan B...but I also want to have a clearer understanding of what is a good and appropriate boundary, and if I am being fair or unfair, or of having expectations of people. The control issue.

Help?

IF the extended family members ask for something from you (whatever it is)

that is the appropriate time to respond:

"Unfortunately, I cannot host your family this time."

and guess what the BEST part is???

You do not need to say "WHY"

in fact, it is a good idea NOT to go into any explaination at all

"Unfortunately, I cannot do (request) at this time. Sorry for any inconvenience."

If you do any pro-active mission statement ... you come off pretty preachy.

It took me forever to compose the above...so I'm looking forward to some thoughtful responses.

Yes, SL, it was great to be ME. I am very, very fond of the "disentanglement" term as well. Detachment seems very cold and unfeeling. Words are important.

I also wanted to point out in response to BR's earlier remark that I was reluctant to post the above concern, because I am not WANTING the drama to ensue. I just want to know if my instincts are right or wrong. How someone with good and appropriate boundaries would address this. Maybe addressing it at all--or even thinking about it--is out of bounds.

Maybe where this is coming from is that I do feel a need to have a response to people who reach out to me, but whom I feel I cannot reach back to for my OWN reasons...??? And hopefully those reasons are valid...not just fear, not just Plan B.

(Horrible grammar above, but I hope my point is made...)

Guess I have some reading to do from the reading list.

Jo: Hi!

LS if you can't reach back for your own reasons, then that should be a good enough reason not to! If that also makes sense...

I am sure that BIL/SIL would understand. My BIL came to visit a couple months ago when WH was having suicidal issues. BIL stayed with ME, because he said he was there to help ME. I was ok with this. If I wasn't, he would have not come. I am sure given what is going on, they will understand too. And out of respect for you they may not ask to stay there, but may ask to visit you and the boys. Is that an acceptable boundary? Visits but no Overnights?

It won't just be a request to "host." I am anticipating (perhaps wrongly) that someone (BIL, SIL) will reach out. The last time I saw them was in December, and we spent a great deal of time together, and the kids stayed at the house.

I would expect that SIL will want to come by and say hello, at the very least. Very likely NOT as a part of some attempted Plan B breach, but just as a human being to another. One woman to another.

And the other day, the local SIL called about getting together for a meal with the kids (as we have done many times since d-day). I have been struggling with how to respond...my instinct was to say something like the what I stated above. Honest, heartfelt. A thoughtful jesture deserves a thoughtful response.

SILs in particular are people who have been kind to me, and who support me in the way that THEY CAN. I would not feel right about just ignoring a direct overture.

Do you see the distinction, or am I rationalizing?

Okay, I agree with Pep on this one. No need to send anything preemptive. If you are asked to help out, or be a part of anything, THEN respond with a simple no thank you, or I'm sorry, but I can't help you. No why's. The why's are for YOU, hoping you'll get a response or some mention of your reply to the IL's. Don't waste the energy explaining yourself.

Boundaries are yours, you don't need to explain them to anyone not attempting to breach them, or who are a regular visitor in your life.

Sis-entangled, disentangle.

If no question or favor is asked, why think ahead of time how to respond to it. Be ready to just say NO. No need to justify a reason.

If there remains ANY custody issues to be determined and possible contentiously argued...they MAY use such actions against you by trying to characterize such behavior as harmful to the boys. Not allowing them or maybe I should say seemingly or arguable severing ties with their family (aunts, uncles, IL's, cousins) will open you up to questioning your motives and whether you are taking the "best interests of the boys" into consideration versus being seemingly vindictive.

If I were the judge...you'd have NO PROBLEM doing it, however, I'm not.

You can still do it...just be careful what you write or say. Make certain it focuses more on the kids than you. Same outcome...just frame it favorably to your legal custody position.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - For what it's worth...I think retaining hope is alright. Statistically...affairs end, regardless of all the "why's". I spent weeks trying to figure out exactly which type of affair Mrs. W was having in 2005. I never figured it out and it was a waste of time.

p.p.s. - Bramble Rose is right on with the direction she is taking you. Carry on.

Sis,

I like Pep's suggestion (and windy nipples). IF they ask to come over, then just respond with "Unfortunately, it's not good for me this year" and not much more. You don't need to explain why--I highly suspect they KNOW why!--just say it doesn't work for ya!

Furthermore, if you and WH do end up getting divorced (as it appears you might), I would like to remind you that those cousins will NOT stop being your kids' cousins...BIL/SIL will not stop being their aunt and uncle. Thus, it seems prudent to keep SOME measure of civility with them for the future. In this instance it really is for the kids' sake!

Sis, I have walked in your shoes. When my exH having all of his A's, I told his mom (MIL), his brother and her wife (BIL/SIL) and his sister and her hubby (SIL/BIL) hoping that ONE of them would have the courage to tell him that what he was doing was wrong, and that he should MAN UP and return to his family. Not ONE of them had that courage!!!! I was SOOO disappointed in them, and so disappointed for me because I had considered them more my family than my own family!! :sad: Nonetheless, I just let them make their choices same as I had to, and tried not to hold it against them. A couple years after our D was final, they invited DD to an Mother's Day brunch, prepared and served by the men...and they asked me if I would attend. At first I felt weirded out, but I decided to go because I really did love these people. Every one of them hugged me and said, "He was so dumb. I know we're not related by marriage anymore, but could we choose to be friends?" and I agreed. I'm not CLOSE friends with them all...but we are civil and occasionally send emails with "family news."

I know it's raw to you RIGHT NOW...and understandably so. Just don't forget that in the future your KIDS may want to have some time with their cousins...or aunt and uncle.

(((((((((((((LilSis))))))))))))))))))))))



--CJ

Are you talking about a pre-emptive strike????
You can't "enforce" a boundry when no attempt to cross it has been done.

I would be highly offended if I were your SIL/BIL. They haven't asked you for anything....(yet). If and when they do -- Pep's answer is much much better. Just say no. Graciously but firmly.

In fact....if I were planning to visit my parents and extended family -- it would not occur to me to ask the woman my brother dumped if she would take my kids for a few days.

Would you???

I think the breach is far more likely to come from your own boys. They will probably be the ones asking if their cousins can come and stay like they did last time....

I see it.

You were very upset talking to the neighbor about him. If you see your SIL's, they are probly gonna want to talk about him too.

If you are comfortable visiting with them, but making it clear you will not talk about him, then go for a very short time. If you think it will hurt you then don't do it. Send the kids to visit and go do something for you.

We both know I am not a pro here, but if you think it is going to hurt you then don't do it.

Holymoly: Maybe I do need to be more clear about my boundary. Maybe I am stronger than I think.

I am AFRAID that I would really be hurt by any interaction, even with my STBX neice and nephews...just a reminder of all of the loss...the "weirdness" that is now and will always be...especially after a D.

I will no longer be a part of this family. No matter what anyone "says." I won't be at the Christmases, at the Memorial Day celebrations, at the weddings, graduations, birthdays.

Why fake it? Why pretend? I am carving out my own life, and these people will not be in it...due to distance AND discomfort. It just won't work.

Now I feel myself getting defensive. I wonder why? See...I am being very honest with myself...taking inventory.

lilsis --

have you prepared how you will handle your own boys being the ones asking?
I know mine always connived with their cousins for sleep-overs.
I think that's the most likely trouble spot for you....