Dear Sis ~

When addicted to drama, we create our own! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You handled this drama urge very well though!

Boundaries are not right or wrong. The neat thing about boundaries is that they are entirely personal decisions that you have complete control over.

You stated your desired boundary really well, and I think Pepperband and others gave you great advice on how to maintain that boundary. There is nothing I can add to that aspect of your issue.

You explained very well the WHY of your boundary...and I think there is something here that we should look at for your self-inventory.

Can we discuss the WHY of your WHY? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Short term, I think your boundary is probably wise. The risk of damage to family relationships on both sides is quite high.

However, I want to touch a bit on what Mr. Wondering said...you will ALWAY be connected to these people through your children, and there are many reasons not to cut these people out of your life.

First and foremost, your children have had enough losses - they do not to need to experience anymore losses. They need connections to extended family. They do not understand or experience your husband's betrayal the way you have. They don't view things from your adult moral perspective. All they experience is loss of connection to people in their lives, uncertainity and instability.

Secondly, Mr Wondering's comments were right on the mark. Until you have a custody agreement and a divorce decree, you must be extremely careful not to do things that can be construed as lack of cooperation and keeping your children from family without cause.

And thirdly, of course...if you have the opportunity to recover your marriage, you will be faced with a rather awkward situation....you will find yourself taking back the man that you insisted that they all reject....again, they don't see this the way you do, and the added stress and tension among family members will make your recovery more difficult.

So .. am I saying your boundary is wrong? Not at all.

But lets talk about your expectations of other people...

You see, I think you NEED this boundary because you are hurting and vulnerable.

I think however, that your hurt is something that is entirely under your control and is caused by your unrealistic expectations of other people. (this is the self inventory part!)

I have a wonderful daily ready called One Day at a Time in Al-Anon. I wish I could copy so many of the readings for you!

What I can say to you is that acceptance of other people, and learning to Live and Let Live is the answer to the pain of unfulfilled expectations.

When you expect others to react in a specific way to any given situation, you are setting yourself up for pain and hurt. Every individual has their own motivations, their own reasons - and you not only have no understanding or knowledge (which is why asking WHY is an attempt to control) of others thoughts and reasoning...but you also have no control over others motivations and views.

By accepting...(not agreeing or approving!) other people as they are, instead of expecting them to meet your own personal standards, you learn to Live and Let Live. By putting the focus back on your own life, accepting others as they are, not who you want them to be, you will gain free time for yourself filled with much more serenity and calmness. You will find that people are not so easily able to hurt you.

Think about this...how often have you failed the expectations of others?

oh yeah - hi Jo and FF! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I read this over last night and had a niggling feeling. After sleeping on it, I thought of what it was I wanted to say.

On the one hand...clearly this whole situation has shone a bright light on my expectations of others and how living in that way has failed me. This is a valuable lesson to learn.

On the other hand, I have a hard time with the whole "live and let live" and no expectations of people thing. It's a rather slippery slope, and on its face, makes me uncomfortable.

I'm speaking generally, not just about this whole A nightmare.

If my mom were to keel over in the middle of the frozen foods, I'd expect that someone would call the ambulance. If someone backs into my car in the parking lot, I expect that they would leave their contact info on my windshield. When I give a waitress my credit card, I expect that she won't steal my identity.

Each example...higher and higher expectations of people (and greater likelihood that my expectation won't be met). But without these expectations, and the belief or understanding that people will behave in a particular way...the whole fabric of society begins to unravel.

I would call these societal expectations "norms." We all hold them, we SHOULD all abide by them, and without them, problems arise. We may not all be on the same page, but generally... Some people may back into someone in the parking lot and say, "Whoops! Too bad for you!" as the tires go screech...

But that's not how it should be. I think we can agree in theory that's not RIGHT. I believe we have an obligation to treat others in a certain way. "Do unto others..."

There's still right and wrong. And shouldn't we EXPECT the people around us, our fellow human beings, to understand that there's right and wrong, too? That there's always gray, too...

So that's where I come to the whole A thing. Was it wrong for me to EXPECT that WH would keep his promises? Was it wrong for me to EXPECT MIL to keep a confidence when she promised she would?

Certainly there have been other examples of expectations that were unrealistic, but I guess I want to throw this out there.

It seems awfully convenient and morally ambiguous...and leaves the door open for people to take adavantage of one another...??

Okay, I'm going to be late if I don't get off, but I wanted to throw this out...maybe someone with more experience can fill in the blanks for me...

Lilsis... without filling in the blanks for you... I will merely say that I could not agree more with what you have expressed here. The live and let live crowd misses the mark IMO. It is okay to have expectations of others....how we react to disappointment is up to us though. IMO, it is this crowd that is partially responsible for many of the major "ills" in our world.
I agree with your take and feel it is always prudent to examine your expectations to make sure you are not placing an undue burden on others.

MEDC

LS,

One should be able to expect decency - but too many people allow shades of gray to creep into their moral structure when it causes pain to them to hold a black and white standard of right and wrong. Sometimes it's pain. Sometimes it's sheer laziness.

But whatever the cause, the truth of this world is that while we should be able to expect it, it's going to add to our pain to count on it. Be pleasantly surprised when it shows up. Because at that point, then you know you have a true brother or sister in the Lord. The rest of the sheep have not yet learned to follow the voice of their Master.

I've learned in my recovery that "expectations" are "pre-meditated resentments". I've also learned to get out of God's way and let Him refine someone's skewed moral compass in His way in His time.

Just be the best L.S. that you can be and teach those little boys so that their moral compass guides them straight and true through life.

MEDC:
I "expected" you to agree with that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good point about how we react to those unmet expectations...that is in our control. And...there are times when *I* think that moral outrage is the correct reation. A genocide in Darfur, a baby left in a trash can, the molestation of a child.

We should be morally outraged as individuals and as a society that these things occur, and (IMO) we should act on that moral outrage...write legislators, donate to causes, volunteer, or even just using them as "teachable moments" for our own kids. That is an expectation that I have of myself...recognizing that's not the same way others would react...but I at least EXPECT that others would INTERNALLY share my moral outrage at such violations of social norms.

So to Kayla:
I'm really glad to get an idea of how you square the expectations issue with your faith in God. I'm still grappling with it a little, I'm going to read what you've written carefully and process it.

I guess one thing that bothers me is the perspective. Maybe I'm just too Mary Sunshine, but the idea of being pleasantly surprised when someone abides by social norms is really pretty sad. Maybe that's what bothers me, deep down.

I've always been someone who WANTS to expect the best of people. Maybe that's a "social justice" Catholic thing; the way I was raised. I know that WH (reformed Protestant) saw everyone as fallen, sinners, etc. People are basically good (me) vs. people are basically bad (WH). PLEASE LET'S NOT GET INTO THE WHOLE RELIGIOUS THING HERE. I'm just trying to explore where this comes from for ME.

So this is what I am thinking about...do I want to give up that VALUE, that BELIEF, that OPTIMISM that people are basically good? I try to see the good in everyone. When I was sitting in that cell, if I were not able to see the good in people, I don't know that I would have made it out of there with what was left of my sanity intact.

I feel compelled to find the good.

Doing so may set me up for disappointment...but maybe being optimistic most of the time and occassionally disappointed is better than being value-neutral most of the time and occassionally surprised.

Kayla: I love the "pre-meditated resentments" phrase. And I can see such clear examples of that in my life recently.

But some of the bigger things...marriage vows, being there for your children, I have a really hard time thinking of those as pre-meditated resentments.

There's a continuum...on one end, things that we should not ever expect (someone to give me a million bucks). In the middle, things that we should reasonably expect (that the waitress won't steal my identity). On the other end, things we SHOULD expect (that my husband will not leave me and the kids for his adultress).

Along that same continuum, when the opposite of what is expected occurs, it goes from being a happy surprise, to a pre-meditated resentment, to a violation.

Maybe I'm working this out in my own head...writing it all out helps me process it...because frankly, the idea that I should just be happily surprised whenever expectations are met is very, very depressing. The thought of living life that way deeply saddens me.

I enjoy being an optimist...and have been one my whole life (not that you'd know it lately, but it's true).

I just wanted to respond to this to make sure I was not misunderstood.

WH has the boys for the weekend, so I'm assuming they will spend plenty o' time with the cousins, aunt, uncle, etc. Also, I am willing to extend the weekend to Monday if WH requests such through LK. I WANT the boys to have--and enjoy--those traditions and experiences that we used to share as a family.

I have no intention whatsoever of interfereing in or impeding those relationships. At the same time, I don't feel it is MY responsibility to foster those relationships by giving up my "weekend off" or taking on the responsibility of hosting the whole gang at my house.

I intend to enjoy my weekend sans kids...whatever that might entail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

good for you sis.

what are your weekend plans? anything fun?

I totally agree with you on the responsibility of those relationships....that falls to WH.

Okay...today sucked.

Dr's appt in the AM, dentist appt. in the afternoon to repair a filling. So half of my face is numb. Run right from the dentist to school to pick up the boys, then to the store to get DS11 a pair of dress pants that are the correct length. Run home so that we can be here when my mom arrives.

Grab the mail. Two big envelopes. One from FOC, requesting that *I* write a letter telling them how much *I* want my account credited for money that WH put into our joint account. And that *I* need to have the letter notarized.

Second envelope is from my attorney. It contains correspondence from WH's attorney, outlining all of the retirement benefits and pension that I have any claim to for the "duration of our marriage, 12/10/04 to 10/15/06." So I guess WH is right. We are no longer married.

I just went up to the bedroom and bawled my eyes out, with a face that is half asleep, feeling frazzled, sweating, and a sore jaw. Feeling absolutely low...I meant so little to this man that I have loved for so long...whom I married...whose children I carried and gave birth to...with whom I experienced great joy and sadness...I am nothing more than some inconvenient baggage that needs to be bought off as cheaply as possible.

I called LK, the ONLY one IRL who has a clue what this feels like and just bawled.

I'm sick of this...I really question God here. Where's the good in any of this? Are things ever going to turn my way? It's not about "hope." (so please those of you who say that it's an indication that I should throw in the towel...you are off base)

It's about love. The man I married was worth fighting for, and I still love him. He may very well be gone forever...I don't know that for sure, and may never know it. I may very well end up Dd. I don't want that, not in the least, not for me or for him or especially for the kids.

The thing I worry about is feeling this way forever. Feeling so sad about what's lost. Grieving. I'm tired of grieving.

And LK, Ms. Sensible, Ms. Pragmatic, she doesn't have an answer, either. She's still living one day at a time. Now THAT'S scary...

((( Sis )))


Dear God ~ Please, please, please wrap Your arms around our angel LilSis and envelope her in Your love. Please allow her to feel our love and care and the love and care of her friends and family. In Your name, I beg this.

Hey LilSis,

I am SO sorry! I wish there was something I could do (I am a "doer" too). You have said quite abit about living in W Michigan which is where I live. While my path is not the same as yours, I understand the pain. And I too raised two sons after a divorce. I read your thread everyday and have prayed that God sends you all the strength you need to get through all of this.

If there is anything I can do, PLEASE let me know.

(((((Sis)))))

We're with you, Sis. Thinking of you and lifting you up the best we can.

Yes, it will get better. I promise. And I don't promise lightly. The rollercoaster, remember? You just took an unexpected drop, but there will be another climbing too.

Hang tight, LilSis, you are an incredible woman and mother. I am so proud of you.

LS:

The twin hammers of the D process. Always coming from somewhere.

FOC?

Nothing. Actual CS started what date???? Thanks WH. You can afford more.

His A's letter? You now have and have known the seperation date. Pretty chilling, that date, yes, but it ain't over yet.

Until a judge signs something, then it ain't over....

IF we could talk, I would give you sympathy. But know that we are all out here thinking about you and supporting you in your struggles.

(((LilSIS)))

LG

Well, Lilisis, I look at it like this....THIS IS THE WORST THAT CAN HAPPEN and you are still standing...fighting, not giving up. The grieving and sadness won't last (whatever the ultimate outcome). I have seen some pretty horrible stuff in this life and one thing that is a constant and always humbles me is.....the capacity of the human spirit to endure and overcome trajedy.

People have bad days...this is one. Tommorrow will be better.

Lem

This is legal posturing. They had to write something in the box, and they chose a date that was to their financial benefit. Until a judge signs the paperwork, you're still married. It's not complete until then.

Don't attach extra significance to this--you're triggering yourself. Gotta watch out for that. I know.

I hear you on the ILs. I'm fighting those same demons right now. They are what they are. It would be great if they could do better, but it seems like they can't. Take it or leave it. That's what I'm trying to tell myself, anyway.

You're doing great.

(((LilSis)))

Sis,

I am HOPING that the dates you typed are typos....otherwise, the attorney has you two married for about two years.

Double check it.

In my former life, I was a proof-reader.

Fun job.

SB

I saw that, too, SB..I thought it was some LEGAL THINGY that I didn't understand....

(((Lil Sis)))

I am so sorry that you had such a bad day. I promise you it will get better. I know you know that your sitch can go either way. However I want you to know that no matter how it turns out you will be a better person, mother, daughter and friend because of it. Your WH may not learn what he is missing until his well has run dry. It may be a part of God's plan for you.

I know just how you feel loving someone with all your heart and then for you to lose him to the rat dropping you feel it is unfair and what did you do to deserve this. I can tell you that him not coming back can be just as much of a blessing for you as finding him was when you did. He maybe making room for the right man to come into your life. WH maybe who you choose and if that doesn't work then pray and have faith that the Lord will send you a man worthy of being your H and father of your boys.

My heart goes out to you. I promise it will get better. I have been in your position. I didn't marry the man who hurt me but I wanted to and we were trying to get pregnant when he cheated and got the girl who he cheated with pregnant and I felt even more betrayed and they didn't last and yes he did come back but when he did it was to late. I had found my wonderful H. However because I went through the pain I did with my first love it kept me faithful when I was tempted because I couldn't hurt my Boo like that. So what I found to be so devestating when it happened I now find it to be a blessing.

Yes, typo.

Thanks, everyone for rallying around with the encouraging words. I had to rally, too...for the concert. Made myself pretty, hopped in the car with the boys and mom. DS11 insisted on calling dad in the car on the way to remind him about the concert.

We arrived, shipped DS11 backstage, and sat down towards the front but away from where we "usually" sit. DS8 was squirming around and very shortly found dad in the back somewhere. He asked if he could go see dad and I said, "of course."

It got to be a while, and I had mom do a little recon head check. She located DS8 with MIL and FIL, who were not sitting with WH...apparently??? A minute later DS8 scampered back to our seats.

The concert was wonderful (as 5th and 6th grade bands go). His band did Raiders of the Lost Ark (one of my fav movies), as well as a little medley from Star Wars Ep. 3. (yay, LG!)

There were a number of remarks about the band director, who is retiring after 33 years in the district. Many, many kudos for this inspiring man, his work, his family (his two sons are now band directors in other districts). The students gave his wife flowers.

I was wondering if WH thought at all about how someone who is respected is treated and remembered and honored...not only for his work, but for WHO he is.

After the concert, I just made a bee-line for the car, while mom and DS8 went to collect DS11 while he presumably greeted WH and ILs. I was waiting in the car and saw ILs approaching, headed for their car, so I quick picked up my phone and began having an animated conversation with absolutely no one. I waved as they walked past.

Mom and the boys arrived, but when the boys saw nana and papa getting in to their car, they ran over to greet them. They stood there a several minutes talking; eventually, I decided to pull out of my spot and drive in their direction (with mom in the passenger seat). When we got near them, the boys broke away and hopped in the car. We said our polite hellos (shades on) and drove off.

Lots of rah-rahs for DS11's great concert in the car, and then home for some ice cream...except not for me...ouch with the sensitive new filling.

So I made it through...didn't even see WH, not so much as a peek. Thank goodness, enough triggers for one day. Clearly he probably saw me, but oh, well... like Glenn Close in The Natural, right?

I kept imagining that scene, BTW. That actually helped. I can be proud, I can stand tall. I don't have to hide in the shadows. ("No one puts LilSis in a corner!" oh, different movie) I'm the one who's raising these boys, and doing a darn fine job. I'm the one who is living a life that I can be proud of, an honorable life, a well-lived life.

(clearly fixating on movies tonight...)

And I came home and caught sight of myself in the mirror, and dang...I'm purty, too!!

So...you are all right...someday, this underlying sadness will be gone....see, I was able to kick its tail today...eventually.

Thanks again, everyone.

Lil Sis,
I think you did a wonderful job! Thank Mama for her candor and helping you, too!
I love the fact that these boys are "so in love" with their mom. You are a very lucky woman, indeed.
It makes me ill to know that WH has done such awful things to you and these boys, whether he realizes it now or not, he will be hit by the sledgehammer of reality, and it will not feel good!
Peace be with you and yours, Sister.

PGA