Lilsis, I say this in a not flirty way... as I do not flirt with married women...
but if your H does not get his head out of his nether region...some man is going to be extremely lucky to have you enter his life one day. There are a lot of very attractive qualities that you possess and your strength and character are at the top of the list.
While I am sure you would like to be hearing these things from the man that should have been proud to stand next to his "purty" wife tonight... I hope it is okay that I said them instead.

MEDC

Hi Sis ~ I think Lem is right on target. This will pass. This is a temporary time of your life.

I am sorry I am so slow to respond. I just started a brand new job this week, and to say life is hectic is a bit of an understatement.

You said:


Change is uncomfortable. New ways of thinking are very uncomfortable.


And your expectation has zero impact on reality. Someone MIGHT call 911. But its also possible that no one does. Either which way, you have no control - your expectation has no power.


And I am sure that there are people on this forum reading right now that have had their car damaged in a parking lot, and no contact information from the individial that did the harm. Expectations to the contrary, reality is what it is.


But that happens to, more often than you think. My husband's identity was stolen a few months ago. I spent a long time on the phone with Visa fraud sorting out our checking account.


So....when you go to sleep at night, do you lock your doors and windows...or do you simply EXPECT that people will obey the law?

Expectations are not what holds society together. Expectations are simply an attempt to enforce one's individual self-will on the universe. It is precisely the frustration of unmet expectations that causes so much pain and suffering in many lives.

I can not control other people. I can WISH that people behaved in the manner to which I think they should, but my expections, desires and wishes are futile. I can have no ability to enforce my self will on the universe.

What I can do, is acknowledge that other people have DIFFERING value systems from mine. Other people operate in a universe where it is acceptable to them to turn away from a heart attack victim, or to run from the scene of an accident.

What I can do, is acknowledge that "everyone else" does NOT see the world the way I do, and so make different choices than I would. Right or wrong choices, the reality is that they DO make different choices than I would. I am powerless over others.

So what keeps society from unraveling? It is not expectations. In fact MEDC, this is for you, how many criminals did you EXPECT into better behavior?

I would hazard to guess that the answer is somewhere around...zero.

But ... you did stop them from harming other people with something called....BOUNDARIES. I would think arrest and jailtime is a pretty big societal boundary, correct?




Says who? No we all don't hold these norms. Thats why we have the MEDCs of the world out there enforcing BOUNDARIES.


It is not collective expectations and norms that protect us. It is our ability to face, accept and acknowledge the reality around us and set good boundaries that protects us from "problems".


Sure, and some people may choose to cheat on their spouses and say, Sorry, I love you but I'm not in love with you!


According to the Rules of Sis, here is how the universe should run...

Too bad that you are NOT in charge of things, and your plan for the universe is NOT in place...


YOU believe that everyone has an obligation. I happen to agree with you. However, NOT EVERYONE ELSE DOES. So you have a choice. You can take steps to protect yourself by learning to draw boundaries...or you can insist that all those other people see it YOUR way and change. And when you are disappointed - retreat with hurt feelings. Which do you think would be more effective and result in a peaceful serene lifestyle?


I think so. But that doesn't mean other people define it the same way I do.

Which is why, you can be RIGHT and spend your life trying to impose your wisdom on the rest of the world - ending up frustrated and angry - or you can learn to Live and Let Live, conducting your life according your own choices, and experiencing joy, serenity and peace.


Just a queustion...

You expected your husband to be faithful when you married him. How well did that work for you?

It didn't work out any better for me either....

I no longer expect my husband to be faithful.

I instead, have a boundary. I will not remain married to an unfaithful man. I verify that in reality he is faithful. I no longer deal with how I wish things were, and instead, I deal with how things are.

That works much better at protecting my own sanity and serenity....

SO TRUE FOR ME, TOO...

"IT IS WHAT IT IS" ..works so much better

No, it is not an attempt to enforce anything on the universe. We cannot enforce anything... but we can expect some common decency... and if it doesn't happen it is very healthy to be disappointed in not only the outcome but also the people that did the deed.

Abortion... live and let live people might say that "well, I wouldn't do it.... but it is not for me to say others can't..." Baloney... nothing would ever change with your line of thinking BR.

That I didn't expect criminals into better behavior has NOTHING at all to do with this discussion. In fact, I expected them to act as they did since they were scum bags criminals.



Nope... that is why as a society we must stand up and enforce them...there are 6000 cops in Philly and about 1.5 million people... you do the math. It is up to people to have expectations of proper behavior in a society.



I am certainly glad you were not around when the Hitler's of the world needed to be judged and taken down. The live and let live crowd is responsible for the vast majority of the ills in the world. And when did angry become a bad thing??? A well focused anger at injustice can get a lot of stuff done. Sitting back and saying... "well, that's just their way" allows injustice to run rampant.

BR... I am glad that when I was a cop that the vast majority of people do not think like you. I respect your views and opinions... but IMHO, you are dead wrong here. There is a time to stand up....to point the finger and to say...enough. Without expectations of proper behavior... which help create boundaries...society would be in a bigger mess than it currently is.

MEDC ~ I have to smile. I almost think you are accusing me of being a liberal! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Which is pretty amusing considering that I am currently a defendent in a federal lawsuit for some volunteer work I did for a prolife organization - and I haven't yet scraped off the Bush Cheney 2004 sticker off of the backend of my SUV! Not to mention my Rush 24/7 subscription so I have something besides CNN international to listen to when I am traveling in Europe on business! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So - just so there is no confusion - I am NOT saying there is NO right or wrong. I am NOT saying that we should allow people to do whatever they want. I believe that we, as individuals and as a society make decisions about what is good and what is not. (edited to add:) We decide as a society what kind of values we have - and what boundaries we need in place. We use our military and internal police forces to enforce the boundaries that we as a society have chosen.

I am NOT saying RIGHT and WRONG are relative.

I am saying that PEOPLE have differing opinions and viewpoionts.

It's a fact.

I would LOVE for the rest of the world to see it my way.

But they don't.

My father thinks I am a terrible, ungrateful daughter.

HIS PERCEPTION is that I am a BAD daughter and a BAD mother.

He has certain expectations of me, as his daughter. I have failed to live up to his standards. It hurts him terribly and I know that he feels that I disrespect him and that I fail to live up to Scripture. I know that my father is deeply depressed, confused and hurt by the fact that all of his children have fled our home as soon as we turned 18.

I do not see things his way. I think that he failed me as a father. I think that even to this day he protects his abusive brothers before his daughters. (I have an uncle that molested my sisters and my dad covered it up, among other things). I think that he abused me and my siblings emotionally and physically.

He believes that what he did to us was discipline, and his God Given responsibility as a parent.

Now. I believe I am righteous in my understanding of what happened to me growing up. I believe that I am right to draw a boundary in my life that keeps my father at a very long distance.

My father believes that he is righteous in his beliefs. (I have the email of bible quotes to prove it. I am a bad daughter). He believes that he did a good job raising us and believes that we are selfish, ungrateful and disrespectful.

Now, I can waste my time trying to force my father to see things my way. Just like so many BSe on these boards, including myself, I could believe that if maybe if I just say exactly the right thing to my dad he would see the light and suddenly view things the RIGHT (my!) way.

And the outcome will be very predictable.

I will spend much frustration and energy trying to convince my dad that my values, my beliefs, my perceptions are reality and his are wrong.

Or maybe, I can choose to protect myself from his extreme dysfunction, and only see him at public family events where I hug him and remind him that I love him, and then LET HIM BE.

My life is certainly far calmer, without the powerstruggle to be right over my dad.

You see, its not so ...black and white.

I did not win my husband back to our marriage by proving to him the error of his ways and the superior rightousness of my own.

I will not win my father back by doing that either.

I respect both my father and my husband as human beings with the freewill to make choices.

I also respect them enough not to stand in the way of the consequences of those choices.

I can not live their lives for them according to MY beliefs.

I can only draw boundaries to protect myself and conduct my own life with integrity according to my own values and not someone else's expectations.

morning, LS!

hoping today is a good one for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Morning nia!

How funny!

I was thinking as I wrote my looong post yesterday that it would peg me as a liberal...which I am. However, I don't see myself as live and let live. I see it as standing up to injustice and unfairness in society, acknowledging that there are many issues that are NOT black and white.

I think we all--as part of a human community--do have obligations to one another and to our planet. That we shouldn't be free to run rampant right up to the letter of the law, or to look away from injustice.

DS11 and were talking about it recently; I told him that I believe we should alwasy stand up for what we think is right, even if others don't. Interestingly, related to MEDC's comment, I pulled up that quote from post WWII, "they came for the communists, and I wasn't a communist, so I said nothing. They came for the Jews, and I wasn't Jewish, so I said nothing. They came for the Catholics, and I wasn't a Catholic, so I said nothing...by the time they came for me, there was no one left to say anything."

If have no expectations of others, when do you stand up for your beliefs? (I ask this in all sincereity, not to be argumentative)

Call me biased on this particular point, but IMHO what I did that landed me in jail was not nearly as harmful as what WH and RT did. I'm not excusing what I did, but on the scale of harm, their actions were worse. Technically, however, *I* was the one who violated the law. Laws are laws...the assumption that they equate to justice is an erroneous one.

Now, I am also a pragmatist. Like MEDC said...some people are scumbags, and I don't expect much of them. But TO ME, it would be unfair to not have any expectations of people in general. Not very "Christian," even. Yes, my expectations may be high, and folks may not live up to them. That's their choice. And typically, I am not "disappointed" in that...it is what it is. More a head-shaking response, if you know what I mean.

I am disappointed when someone I care about, whom I expected to have similar values, etc. does a perceived 180...then I AM disappointed, and I think rightfully so. My expectations are NOT developed in a vacuum. I have invested in a relationship and have gotten to know the person. Perhaps the person even stated FLAT OUT...in vows before God?...that these are values that he holds.

Why get married...what's the point in taking vows...if you don't EXPECT someone to fulfil them? Yeah, it's worked out for crap for me in relation to my marriage...but it is what it is.

I guess I'd rather go to bed knowing that I will get up in the morning and know that I am willing to go to bat for what I think is right, then to go to bed with peace and serenity, believing in no one or anything, looking only ahead to the great hereafter.

This is a total difference of opinion, BR, and I completely respect your point of view. As a matter of fact, IC and I began this conversation last week, and I will pursue it more with him today...thanks in large part to the issues you have raised. I truly want to explore this.

I think it's just a difference in make-up...for ME, INSIDE, who *I* am...I think I would not have a joyful, happy life if I didn't have a sense that people are generally good.

As to the the examples I gave...please don't misunderstand. I get how easy it would be to drive away from a fender bender, or for a waitress to steal my identity. And it wouldn't completely destroy me (maybe financially, but not my psyche). I'd shake my head at the selfishness and thoughtlessness of some people, but I would still have FAITH in humanity.

I have seen so many examples...right here!! in the goodness of humanity. The fact that all these strangers are willing to come here and help me through this!! There is goodness there! Isn't that amazing? What a gift God has given us...of each other.

Not everywhere...not in everyone...we all have our dark sides...I expect that, too. But I NEED for ME to hold on to a sense of inate goodness...or else life doesn't have a lot of meaning, there's no reason to have kids, to try to make a difference, to have joy!

A sign at a church that I pass every morning says, "Enjoy life! God created it!" I love that! I read that as NOT just enjoying my OWN life, but the lives of people around me. Taking joy in the creativity, in the compassion, in the gifts that people bring to the world, to my existence here in this life.

Yeah...maybe all this optimism was one of the reasons that I was brought so very, very low by WH's betrayal. But for ME, it is also what will pull me OUT of it.

And if I can hold on to this, even after what has happened...I will feel that I have held on to something that is precious. I certainly won't be nearly as naive...

BELIEVE ME...I am listening to what you are saying...I will talk to IC about it...and I am going to truly, truly reflect on how my "pre-meditated resentments" have damaged me. But I want to hold on to my faith. I may have said it before, I believe (not based in any theology, just my own personal belief) that God lives in each one of us. It's how well we can hear His voice...how well we FOLLOW His word that is what we demonstrate in our behavior.

When I meet someone who follows His word in the same way that I do, then I have met that Brother or Sister in Christ, as CJ said.

WH was once that one of those people, and is no longer. How sad. But it is my belief in the inate goodness...his inner goodness...that gives me hope that someday he will come around...if not in time to save the marriage, then at least in time to help the boys learn a valuable, valuable lesson.

(and I still have my Kerry/Edwards sticker on my fridge, and my Granholm sticker, right along side the drawings from school) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is kind of a TJ..Sorry....

BR:

You must know already that you ahave helped me SOOO much since that time when you began YOUR WORK on ME, turning me onto SARK..I'M SUCH A WILD WOMAN, DIVA NOW..ANYTYWAYS...

I've been lapping up every word that you have been saying here...

Then I read this...



LOL!! I almost fell off of my chair...

Mimi, the DIEHARD LIBERAL..LOVING someone LIKE YOU??? I'm growing and growing everyday...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

mimi...that's such a great point, though, and I've thought about that lately, too. I don't see it as a TJ.

I am not "disappointed" when someone doesn't share the same political bent that I do. I don't EXPECT that everyone shares my political beliefs. Maybe "expectations" is the wrong word??

I don't resent someone for not thinking the same way that I do. I accept who people are and respect their beliefs IF they have a basis for those beliefs and that they've taken time to formulate their beliefs based on who they are....not just following along like sheep. (this is RT, btw, baaaaa)

I know plenty of conservatives, and I'm fine with the fact they they are conservatives...I even care for them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I RESPECT them and care for them in part because they have considered who they are and make a decision about their political bent based on who they are and what they value.

I guess I am trying to make a point again that I see "expectations" on some sort of continuum...we probably all measure it differently...

???

ETA: and I'm trying to make my point more broad than politics...I think I apply the same standard to a lot of beliefs that people may have.

I love ya too Mimi <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sis ~ expectations is EXACTLY the right word.

"Let Live".

It means respecting the right of ever other human being to live without judgement by me.

It does NOT mean that I do not draw boundaries (stand up for what I believe) when other's choices hurt me. It does not mean that I can not voice my own opinions. It does NOT mean that I allow others to walk all over me.

It means that I let go of resentment - it means that I need to avoid judging other's actions as motivated, intentional harm to me.

When I am in full blown "RIGHT" mode, I have shoved God aside for my own 'better' wisdom. God may have given human beings the freedom to choose, but I know better.

Of course, I am devastated when others fail to acknowledge my wisdom. If they would just see it my way...everything would be great.

Silly God, what was He thinking, allowing people to be wrong!

Hey Bramble,

I had to laugh at this comment. After a few exchanges I've had w/ MEDC, I've thought that he must think I'm sitting here wearing love beads, and burning incense. I figured he'd be shocked if he knew how conservative I was.

Funny thing though, I learned later that MEDC leaned more to the left than I did. LOL

*Shrug*

It's all good.

LS,

I really hope you will continue talking to Bramble about expectations. Letting go of expectations will eliminate resentments you have for others and for yourself.

Inside and out.

~ Marsh

Yep...silly God allowing people to slaughter his children without anyone having the balls enough to stand up and POINT FINGERS...silly God allowing people to run rampant on others and then expect to not be judged...isn't your thoughts on expectations in fact an expectation that others should not be judged???

God has given people the right to choose... and I choose to have expectations and sometimes when those expectations are not met.... watch out... other times, it is just shake my head and learn that the person is no good...

You had expectations of your father.... you just choose to remove him from your day to day life now since he did not meet your expectation that he would treat you well... same with me and my mom... but I will call it an expectation, you will call it a boundary.

Silly God, free will and all that stuff...my free will has allowed me to be a person that makes a differnece in the lives of many because I DO have expectations... it has driven me to be the man I am today that stands up for those that sometimes have a hard time standing up for themselves.

BR... I am just curious and this is way off topic... but how do you feel about abortion... is it just one of those things that you just take care of your own business and leave others to make their own decisions??? How about genocide.... I ask because I see a correlation between the two things.

Sorry for the TJ Lilsis.

MEDC, you are still confusing expectations with boundaries. Really.

I have not cut my father out of my life. He is welcome back into my life at any time he chooses. I love him.

My father believes in Right and Wrong and the Bible and Catholicism.

So do I.

And yet....I have failed to live up to HIS expectations as his daughter.

The result is that he experiences tremendous pain and grief over what he preceives is my failing to be GOOD and RIGHT.

I do not believe that I am wrong. I believe I am right and my father is wrong.

Should I "stand up for my beliefs" by having a power struggle over who is more righteous? What will I gain? Do I stand to gain anything over a battle of who is more RIGHT?

Or should I simply let him be? I can't fix him, change him or control him. He has passed judgement on me and suffers greatly because of his perception of my failures.

I didn't DO anything wrong, in my view.

What did I do in his mind? I have refused to participate in family activities that I felt were harmful to my children. I drew a boundary around my family that offended my father. At least thats my most recent transgression.

I could choose to powerstruggle and be right. But instead, I choose to mind my own business and live my life as I need to. I am sorry that my dad has decided not to be a part of my life. I don't force myself on him, I respect his right to his opinions, even ones of me that I feel are not accurate. I love him, but he has never healed from his own traumatic childhood as the son of a raging alcoholic. I am powerless over my father's spiritual and emotional dysfunction and his feelings. I can't change any of it.

What I can do is leave him in God's hands and be ready and willing to forgive and love him should he ever reach out to me in the future. But I can't 'forgive him' for things that he does not feel he has done wrong. Instead I let go of my expectation that he live up to my standards.

As for abortion - I don't think LilSis's thread is the place for that discussion...ya think?

No, BR... you think I am confusing them when in fact I am not.

I brought up the abortion discsussin because I think it is germaine to this issue.... people that refuse to hold others to a standard are the reason that this genocide type behavior exists in our world... ya think?

In all honesty, I will get out of this discussion with you at this point... we obviously have two ways of looking at the world... I am thankful for the growth that has allowed me to reach this mindset. I see you feel the same about yours.

I absolutely will continue to think about and talk about expectations.

Her very brief post above provides much food for thought. What she is saying makes a great deal of sense...I just need to figure out how to incorporate it MORE into who I am. But I do think I am getting there, in my own way, little by little.

Take my relatinship with my mom...I've LEARNED and have ACCEPTED that she can't always be what I need or want her to be. She does some things wonderully (helps out, makes food), but other things, she just doesn't quite fit the bill (just listening...letting me cry).

And MIL: I've LEARNED...but not quite accepted...that she can't be what I want, either. This one was painful and disappointing. I don't think her behavior is "right," and I honestly don't respect her choices because I think they are made out of fear, not strength...but I understand where they are coming from. And I have set a boundary in response. Talking to her is painful and frustrating, so I choose not to.

And myself: I've learned, and am working on truly accepting..that I am not Perfect, and that in spite of NOT being perfect, I am still someone of worth and value. Previously I felt that only perfection was worthy and valuable.

And friends: I've learned that I can expect more than I ever thought. (maybe the worthy and valuable thing?)

And other friends: I've learned...and am really, really trying to accept...that they will tolerate WH's behavior, for whatever reason. The "reason" is something I don't know about...so I shouldn't judge...but I sure wish I knew what it was (so then I could judge it??) But at least I am trying to formulate a boundary.

Do you see how I am trying to incorporate this? I'm not blowing it off...

BR: So...when you determine that someone HAS in fact intentionally harmed you, is THAT when you put a boundary in place? or do you establish the boundary in advance? pre-emptively?

Also, do you feel that you have a right to think in terms of "respecting" another's beliefs and/or actions?

FINALLY....
This is the one I REALLY have trouble with:
Even child molesters? The 9/11 terrorists? Hitler? Do you really, really respect their right to live without any judgement by others? Even their victims?

As a member of the God's community of humans, don't you resent the way those people chose to live, even if you yourself were not directly victimized? Is there room for empathy there?

I can't see myself getting to a place where I won't judge people who engage in EXTREMELY EGREGIOUS behavior based on my own moral standard. I don't expect everyone in the world to share my same moral code on every issue, and I won't be traumatized when Joe Blow down the street doesn't abide by my creed...

But to not judge others, ever? Operatinally, how DO you stand up for something, because by standing up for something, you are automatically making a value judgement about people who take the opposite stand...

Not quite understanding yet...obviously.

LS,

You had expectations for the church lady.

When she didn't live up to them, it hurt you, no?

How did having these expectations for her help YOU?

You had expectations for your MIL.

When she didn't live up to them, it hurt you, no?

How did having them help YOU?

Didn't it make you resent her?

Doesn't that resentment "color" all that your MIL does now?

Like Mother's Day?

Might MIL have wanted to reach out to you, by doing something special for you on that day?

Once resentments creep into our hearts, it effects our perceptions.

~ Marsh

A lot of what MEDC says makes sense to me, and I do NOT wish to engage in the abortion debate! Thank you for rescuing my thread from that one!

BR: Your example of your dad makes absolute perfect sense to me. I would not powerstruggle either...same with my mom over FAR less sensitive relationship issues. Plan B has taken me out the powerstruggle with WH, ILs, etc. But I am still dealing with the emotional resentment caused by my unmet expectaions.

I do think that my expectation of my H to keep his vows was NOT unrealistic. Vows are vows.

Question: In regard to your realtionship with your dad, I hear you saying you feel you are right and he is wrong...is that not a judgement? Is there a difference here between and belief and a judgement? You BELIEVE him to be wrong, not JUDGE him to be wrong...???

If that's the distinction you are making...then I understand what you are saying.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just being too dang global! or maybe it's the semantics. ??

Marsh: Absolutely. And those expectations did harm me, and hurt me, and have now colored my relationships with those individuals.

I am very aware that THOSE types of "pre-meditated resentments" are very dangerous. I've learned that the hard way.

But expectations of keeping one's marriage vows...doesn't that fall on the other side of some line, here? Doesn't EGREGIOUS stuff fall on some other side of the line?

I'm with you on the human frailty stuff, but real, deliberate, intentional harm by someone who have a vow of trust... or even by a stranger (child molester type)...do you see that as different?