How does having expectations in any of these examples help you?

Did they help to prevent your WH from cheating? Does it stop molesters from molesting? Or murderers from killing?

Do you think expectations offer security?

~ Marsh

I expect certain behaviors of myself, because I control myself. I guide my son with example of what I view as right and wrong. I hope that he is able to grow and use these examples to be a good man. I don't expect that he will not flub up; I KNOW he will, as I did; and everyone else I know HAS flubbed up.

I believe in M, and I hope that PWC's teachings don't get in the way of our M (he was shown to run away, to do what makes YOU feel better). I cannot control what others believe in, but I can surround myself with people who respect my boundaries. I can enforce MY boundaries.

For example, say your son becomes an infidel; what are your boundaries with infidels, even those related to you? See, you can teach and hope that the things that you have enforced go to the core of your children. Life has an intersting way of throwing twists and turns in that can get in the way of YOUR epectations of OTHERS.

My mother instilled in me a sense of responsiblity to my fellow man. I have expectations of myself. I used to project those onto others, as they should believe what I believe; big let down there.

Now, in terms of enforcing legal boundaries, well, we elect the people that make the laws, and we enforce them with the police and with our military. I don't always agree with these laws, so it is up to ME to let my legislation know that, and to begin a movement to make NEW law.

Just MY take on EXPECTATIONS. I believe in rules and regs. I believe in law and enforcement of that law, but, OBVIOUSLY, not everyone else does, and many don't believe in the laws. Also, laws and expectations do not protect us fully, we must protect ourselves, hence "breaking the law". Some people want to rape, some people want to steal, some people shrug their shoulders against 'injustice', and some people carry ride under the symbol of their religion or their god, committing genocide 'In His Name'.

BR's example of her father makes sense to me. She believes in what she believes in, her father, obviously, differs in his beliefs. They are at a head. The behavior of her family, in my eyes, is caustic, but that's my belief. her father doens't seem to agree.

Hey Sis ~


Judgement of actions is different than the judgement of people.

I believe child molesting is ABHORRENT.

Does that mean I set out to exact my own version of vigilante justice on them? Do I set out to forcefully impose MY view of how-things-ought-to-be on the rest of the world? No.

It means that I participate as a member of society in the internal debate and reflection on the values of our society. I support one view, that is not shared by everyone else. I will do my best, as a member of society, to stand up for what I believe in by respecting current laws and working within the system to advocate my beliefs. I do this by supporting legislators, and laws that protect children. It means that I take steps to ensure that child molestors do not have access to my children. I do not expect people to refrain from child molesting, and then act surprised, shocked and horrified when some people DO perform those heinous acts. Instead I acknowledge the reality that within society some people do NOT find child molesting heinous and therefor I take personal responsbility in protecting my children from them.

I don't know what motivates a child molestor. While physciatrists can certainly give us insight into the mental disorder that causes one to enjoy child molesting, I truely do NOT have any ability to know or judge the state of someone else's heart and mind.

9/11 terrorists, Hitler, whatever...I fully support actions, laws even wars to prevent evil acts being carried out against humanity.

I certainly can judge right from wrong.

I can not judge another person's heart and mind. Expectations that others share MY motivations, understandings and values is unrealistic, and only contributes in damaging ME.

Letting go and Letting my father Live, it does not mean I do not disagree with his choices. To me, his point of view makes NO SENSE. I just accept that it IS his point of view and then take steps accordingly.

I expected my H to weedwack our yard w/o clipping my row of lavender.

Boy, was I bitterly disappointed when I saw what he did to them.

I will never expect him to miss my flowers again. So, I will watch him the next time he weedwacks.

I don't expect my kids to be perfectly safe, so I do what I can to keep them safe.

I don't expect to get the unvarnished truth when I listen to the news. So, I invesigate matters of importance to me from many sources.

I don't expect that when I see a "Sale" sign, it's always true. So I compare prices....

~ Marsh

Okay...I am getting it. I had a conversation about it with IC this afternoon, too. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, actually.

BR: your post about how you respond to those society issues was what I was looking for. I was trying to square the whole issue in terms of socieital obligations that I believe we have.

You description of how you also value our obligations to society is what I was missing. I was hearing, "live and let live, and the world be d#amned." I didn't think I was interpreting it correctly, so I appreciaton your spelling it out for me.

And again, your situation with your father makes perfect sense.

And marsh...you give good examples as well. Those, to me, are common sense things that I never really considered in terms of expectations.

I don't know why understanding boundaries is so difficult for me. Others seem to see it so clearly. Maybe it's my entanglement talking.

I feel emotionally wrung out today.

Long talk with IC today about that "little voice." I attributed it to Fear and Doubt, who snickers when I say "I am good enough/worth/admirable." My IC told me to imagine Fear and Doubt like a little creature on my shoulder...flick him off with my fingers, and say "FU." And instead listen to the voice of Optimism on my other shoulder who says, "go!" in a pretty small voice.

It took me a long while to figure boundaries out, too, Sis, you are not alone with that endeavor.

I finally got it after our last false recovery, as I enforced my boundary of no OP in my M.

I don't know why it was so tough for me to understand, either, as it makes perfect sense to me now, but i think I also let go of that last bit of perceived control that I thought I had over my H and the whole situation. Maybe it takes that last leap to get to understand boundaries. Not sure on this one; others may know better, but that is my perception of what kept me from understanding, the control thingy.

Aaah SL...very insightful.

Our perceptions of control is what comes back to bite us on the behind, damaging ourselves every time.

When I let go and let God, or live and let live, I am really simply choosing to let go of my perception that I have control over other people or circumstances.

MEDC ~ As a cop you risk your life to enforce the boundaries that society has decided it needs. Thank you for your service.

Thanks, SL. Sometimes I feel so sloooowwww...it seems so clear to others and it's just not clicking with me. And I would SOOO very much like it to, because I feel like that fear is just holding me back. I want to be released from it, only I hold the key, and I just won't turn it...

I also talked to IC about fear today. He asked what me what I might be afraid of if I really truly believed the voice of Optimism...the one who says I am worthy.

Hmmmm...don't know. And I don't even know what that would feel like, to really, deeply believe that.

I'll give it some time. In the meantime, I do feel overwhelmed and emotionally tapped, so I'm going to go work outside again...

Worry is a thin stream of fear trickling through the mind. If encouraged, it cuts a channel into which all other thoughts are drained.

This is a great discussion. Thanks to all.

I believe in live and let live. I have no desire to control others and tell how to live or what choices to make. Where I struggle is that I desperately want to control what happens to me and my family. Realization of just what I can't control (and how to let go of it) is a tough lesson, and one that I have to repeat periodically on this roller coaster.

LilSis:

Expectations and societal concerns?

Say you were driving down the road.

Up ahead was a car and a young man was peering into the gas tank.

You had a gas can in your car to do the lawn tonight, and you thought you could help.

So, you pull over.

The young man is nervous, but you give him enough gas to get to the next station.

And you get to mow your lawn as well.

You also noticed his license plate is missing. He pulls it out of the trunk, stating that it has been loose, and he will fix it at the station, but somehow he attaches it to the back of the car. And he drives away.

You met many society issues with that, helping someone in need, with no expectation for anything in return.

Because there were none. He's a guy on the side of the road.

Later, you get home. Turn on the TV.

Someone blew up the OK City Federal Building.

The police have arrested somebody. Caught because he was missing a license plate.

Where you culpable in his actions? No.

Did he break society Norms? Big Time.

Was there anything that you could have done to deflect him from his course of actions? No.

But had you had the knowledge of what he was going to do, you would have done anything to stop it right?

And had you known what he had just done, you would have tried to have him arrested, right?

Such is the way of the world.

We do not know what the bad guys are doing in the world. They, generally speaking, do it in the darkness. Where you can not see it. Why, because it is Wrong. The same reason that A's start in secrecy. When exposed, some people will do the right thing. But our society says that "although A's are wrong, it isn't my business" so they ignore it. "Why can't we all just get along?"

Church Lady.
MIL.
SIL.
Others.

One day, those roadsigns I was telling you about will guide you to the place you belong. Be it next to, or divorced from, WH.

And then you can re-engage the other members of the extended family to allow your boys to have those relationships.

Right now, these same people, indirectly, and sometimes without thier actual conscience (sp?) knowledge, are hurting you. Maybe not hurting, "not helping" is better.

And its ok to put a boundary around them in regards to your interactions with them. Lowers your expectations of them as well.

Don't know if this made any sense, but considering where I come from, this is about as coherent as I get.

LG

In my experience, the majority of people don't like telling other people something that they don't want to hear.

My friend Chrisner knows that my Sippy Cup cleaning technique sucks and that I really ought to do better. Does he tell me directly? Probably not, because I might get offended and not like him anymore, and all of us want to be liked. It's easier for Chrisner to just avoid the issue and hope that my kids don't get food poisoning, because they probably won't.

The more personal and contentious the issue, the more that other people want to avoid it.

Giving this kind of feedback to other people (courageous conversations) through appropriate pathways (e.g., not Yo, Super Dark Guy, what are you, some kind of moron? Even BetrayedCajun knows you have to . . .) is something most people don't do well or even aspire to. I am still learning.

Why this judgment about the speed you learn something?

Is that really important? This comparison to others?



You have conflicting belief's, LS.

The one that is the oldest says you must do certain things to make you loveable. It says you must be as close to perfect as you can, or you aren't worthy.

And this belief continues to be reinforced every time you DJ yourself, measure yourself up against others and choose not to forgive yourself quickly....and.... every time you DJ someone else, measure them up against others, and choose not to forgive them quickly.

Remember the two way street?

What we do to others we will do to ourselves. And vice versa.

I know you want to free yourself from that old belief, why not quit reinforcing it?

~ Marsh

...or flick it off my shoulder and say, "FU" like my IC said?

It's not so much the comparison to others...it's my impatience to "get there." I want to get to a place where I feel some peace and serenity. I'm sick of feeling afraid, of feeling like I'm not getting out of this "place."

Maybe fear that I will be stuck here forever...as I said the other night.

It does seem like the more I boil it down to "what am I REALLY afraid of?", the easier it is to manage. Sort of like, oh...that's not really so scary after all. Or, okay, I've managed this before. The free-floating fear is less scary once it is named.

We had this EXACT conversation today. IC was talking about how as infants/toddlers, our mid-brain learns fear before we even know what it is the we are afraid of, and we can't even remember now what it was that elicited the fear response. But it's still there, deeply embedded, so ancient that it takes a lot of work by the cortex (the intelligence part) to basically re-program that mid-brain.

So yes, I should stop reinforcing it...even in the unconscious ways. A hard habit to break...very hard.

It's just frustration with myself, Marsh...wanting to hurry this along so I can fine the peace I crave. It's not always healthy, I know, but it can also be a motivator, so it works both ways. If I weren't motivated, I would not explore this issue...I would just sit back on my self-righteous behind and blame the entire universe for my woes. (okay, I do that, but at least I admit it).

LilSis ~ there are no shortcuts to spiritual growth. I won't say enjoy the journey because its a journey of trials and tribulations, blood sweat and tears! But at the end...theres a big bucket of self esteem, peace, joy and serenity waitin for ya =)

Again, I will say that it is good not everyone thinks this way.
Regarding the law... judging right from wrong... we do not merely measure actions... we measure intent which is often times more important that the act itself. The person heart and mind are in fact judged...was the crime an accident... was it pre meditated....what was their MOTIVE? That is a huge part of life. I have an expectation that a person will tell me the truth....if they don't meet that expectation I am disappointed in them... maybe I won't do business with them in the future... maybe not trust them with my children...now if they had a good reason to lie (and they do exist as a cop I lied to people every single day. It was part of the job and it served to keep people safe) I would consider their motivations.
The heart and mind of a child molestor, terrorist or other criminal with poor motives is judged every single day and thank God for that.

Okay...moving on to something else for the moment.

In IC yesterday, we discussed my penchant for wanting to be perfect, because if it were to be revealed that I were imperfect, I would not be worthy.

So I finally reveal myself to WH, all my flaws (probably not all...I'll grant you...old habits). But I absolutely, certainly, without question revealed more of my self to him than I ever had to anyone else.

And he leaves. Not just leaves, but found someone "better."

It went right to the heart of my deepest, darkest fear. It proved it. I was right to be afraid, I was right to doubt my worth.

And I just have a hard time getting past that.

I just wanted to share that this morning...

Anyone?

and you actually believe that he would have stayed and not had an affair if you hadn't revealed that part of yourself to him? i don't believe that one and you shouldn't either. no matter how perfect or not perfect you were he STILL would have done it. Because it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with him and his character and morality flaws.

only God is perfect. no one else. imperfections are not flaws.

mlhb

LS - consider that he has also showed his imperfections with you - his deepest darkest unworthiness with you - and it's an unworthiness you cannot live with...