There will ALWAYS be people who disagree with you or who don't understand you, even when things are rosy in your life. You're allowing your situation to color your interpretation of everyone. Sis disagreeing doesn't affect anything. She's just being Sis.

WE know you're doing the right thing. YOU know you're doing the right thing. Who cares if OTHERS don't understand? They will. In the end.

(((Sis)))

lilsis-

I hope you don't think that I compared your sis to mine. I just shared about mine because I can see that yours cares about you and just wants to help.

It's like someone said earlier-those who love you want to help you get over your pain because they don't want to see you hurting. They want to have you just pull the band-aid off quickly, and get "over it." But this isn't a pain that will just sting and then go away.

Please know that we care for you and we understand. And trust that God will touch this wound. You aren't alone.

LilSis,

I have a trick I use to help me through feelings like you are having.

Remember those old cartoons of someone with a little angel sitting on one shoulder and a little devil sitting on the other giving advice and trying to get control over the person? That's what I picture. Let me try to explain...

We are all being tempted all the time. I like to refer to it as the "whispers of the darkside". When I hear myself saying things like, "I deserve..." or "I didn't deserve...", or "It isn't fair" I know I have been listening to those whispers. That little demon is drawing my attention. He is telling me I am ENTITLED to something better than I have. To look at what could be - no - better yet - what SHOULD be and feel lacking instead of looking at the fullness of my life.

That sense of entitlement is a dangerous thing.

We are all vulnerable to those whispers. It results in different courses of action for different people, but never in a positive direction.

So when I catch myself, I picture flicking that little demon from my shoulder and becoming still to hear the things the little angel has to say instead.

Hope this can help you sometime, too.

Sis,

I think along the same lines as BR. You've hit a deep valley right now, and it is yours to traverse, not WH or sis or mom or friends or even sons, but yours. This is tough.

Consider that breaking Plan B is only for your to peer out and see if WH will react to you in the way you hope for. Sis, I've never experienced that. They react the way they do according to where they are in their hearts and minds. You can't control that by getting the D, or talking to him or trying to convince your loved ones that the path you are on is RIGHT. The path you are on is yours, not right or wrong, just a choice, YOUR CHOICE.

Now, the path you are on is a GOOD one, again, not right or wrong, but a path to a better Sis, a WHOLE Sis. Yup, this suckadoodledoo's. I know. You had a bad day. You will most likely have more, but they will pass. You are still so entangled and wanting of your WH.

It's a bad day. You are sad, you miss your H, you miss the family that was yours; truth is Sis, even if your husband returns, almost nothing will be the same. Your M, your children, your home, your family and friends; most of these relationships will be different, because YOU will be different, AND innocence is lost. I'm experiencing this now. I'm experiencing that my M is currently a task, not so much easy breezy. Such is my M RIGHT NOW.

As trust grows, and we iron out the kinks, things will change, but all this takes extraordinary efforts and time. Buck up Sis, tomorrow is another day, filled with all of the beauty that you saw not ONE day ago. That beauty is still there. Your relationships with your family will always be as they are; they don't want to see you in pain for a multitude of reasons, and will grasp, as all others do, for ways of alleviating it. They are pained when you are pained. Let them love you as they do, without setting limitations to it.

Hope you have a good weekend. I'll be gone next week (probably go thru some withdrawal--which could be good) on vacation; Outer Banks, NC.


BTW, reading your posts about your Sis, loving you and trying to understand and advise, it helps me to understand my big sis. Sometimes, I feel like we are from different worlds, but then I read your posts and it sounds like my dynamic. Thanks for being so open about this R.

((((Sis))))

Okay...so for today, I went to field day.

But apparently I need to identify some additional resources. I need to admit to someone that I can't do this on my own. If even to just have a safe place to admit that...to share that frustration and sadness...without any expectation that I will jump right up and DO something.

So I called SIL. I wasn't sure where she stands, currently, but she had called the other day and I never returned her call. Her son's (my STBXnephew) birthday is Monday, and she was planning a party and wanted me to bring the boys.

I can't go because I have a meeting about DS11's class trip, but I told her that WH will have the boys that night. I wanted to thank her for thinking of me.

She was so glad to hear from me, she had been feeling very wary, completely understanding--and respecting--my need to have black and white lines, and knowing that I knew that WH had been over there. She assured me that she totally understands, that she is caught and conflicted as well because BIL is WH's brother, and there are family things...but she has no "relationship" with WH, and doesn't intend to.

It's so awkward. She really wants to stay connected with me, but recognizes that it's difficult.

She reassured me that she and BIL are there for me anytime, and that she'd like to get together, but she wants it to be totally on my terms. I am not to worry, WH never comes by at all, it has only been for family things, so i won't run into him.

She was totally sympathetic to how overwhelming things are right now. It felt good to have someone just say to me...yes, you are dealing with a lot. There aren't any good answers right now. Just go ahead and cry.

I followed up with another call to sis. I think we are getting to a place where we both understand the others POV. Neither of us feel a need to embrace the other's POV, but I want (yes, want) her to see at least where I am coming from, and I want to see where she is coming from.

I feel that if she doesn't understand where I am coming from, then she will continue to be very axious about how I am doing. I would like to set her mind at ease, as much as it can be. I want her to not worry, I want to share with her that sometimes the best thing she can do is just sit and listen (because she wants to DO).

I do wish I didn't feel so under the gun. Today WILL take care of itself, but soon a bunch of todays get strung together and it's Aug. 2 and I have no idea what I need or want.

So living for today is great in theory, but it doesn't allow for any time to deal with the future which is bearing down hard.

Why deal with what hasn't occurred? Truthfully, you CANNOT deal with what has not happened or isn't currently happening. You can PREPARE for the D, but anticipating what could or may happen is tough, unless you are omniscient.

Again, as time goes on, you will feel more confident. It was nearly 7 months after PWC left that I felt that disentanglement occur, and then one more false recovery, and then another month before I was confident. That was MY timeline, so don't worry over it, just understand that three months could be the tip of the iceberg. You are still fighting with control, and a need to DO, when there is nothing to do, YET.

It is very frustrating and exhausting. You are doing the single parent thing, and that ALONE is exhausting, then add a dose of WS insensitivity and it becomes overwhelming. This is where disentangling comes in. Mimi says that she lived as if her WH were dead; I began to live as if he were still there, but lost somewhere, not to be located by me. You will pick your own thing.

I guess I am saying that you are experiencing phases of mourning, and they are not linear.

Sis,


This is your fear talking.

SL:
I hadn't read your first post before I posted, then I left again to pick up the boys, then home and just finished mowing.

First, enjoy your trip. We went to Atlantic Beach one year for spring break on a whim; really enjoyed the different scenery...and the seafood. and Carolina BBQ. Never had that before.

The thing about with dealing with the D...is that it IS occurring, NOW. All around me. And I need to make decisions. What do I want to do about the pension, the retirement. I'm expected by FOC to respond to WH's contesting of the arrears. I need to get an appraisal. I haven't done any of these things.

I so, so wish I didn't have to deal with that right now on top of doing the whole single working parent thing, and the emotional thing. Those two alone are more than enough to deal with day to day...then throw in the fact that I need to take respond to this D crap that's hanging over my head, which I don't even WANT....

That's what gets me totally overwhelmed.

Opening back up to SIL was a pretty big step for me. It's the first time I've allowed some room for someone to come in, rather than shutting people out. Allow her to be what she can for me. But that's hard, because I might end up hurt. It's easier to have nice stiff boundaries.

I am afraid (yes, fear again) of being hurt. But I guess it's a chance I have to take in order to keep a relationship that I value.

And I'm also afraid, probably, of letting my sister down, not meeting her expectations of how I should be doing. I'm afraid of hurting her.

Incidentally, LK called today, and I told her I was having a bad day. I told her part of me just wants to throw in the towel and get this D worked out and be done.

She pointed out that doing that wouldn't solve anything either. I still wouldn't have any kind of closure, it wouldn't be any easier, it would just put more pressure on me right now. I still have to go through everything emotionally, and that can't be rushed.

I'm probably just tired. This has been an emotional few days. Tomorrow afternoon's my friend's wedding, and a few of us are going together. I'm really happy to be going, and look forward to being with my friends, so I would like to just shut off those whispering voices and live in the moment, enjoy the now.

I guess I need to keep asking myself, what is the worst that could happen?

In this case, it is unknown...thus so scary. Maybe it would help to think of some REAL possible outcomes, instead of how ambiguous it is.

What's the difference between fear and dread?

you WILL get hurt
everyone does
hurt is a given in human interactions

YOU will be hurt
your kids will be hurt
I will be hurt

.... all by our loved ones ... to fear this is to fear life


yup



you WILL let her down
you will not always meet her expectations
you will hurt her (and others)

life is thus

and?
this is no different than it was PRIOR to all this adultery/betrayal/divorce stuff

your eyes are wide open is all

Here is the thing...

people can and will hurt you.

You have to learn to love yourself enough, and trust yourself enough to be your own best protector.

How do you think those of us who are successfully recovered survive? Not because our spouses all became perfect, but because we learned to trust our own instincts and our own ability to deal with 'stuff' that people throw our way.

You will hurt other people and let them down.

You are not responsible for other people's feelings. They are not yours to manage!

I know I have certainly let people down in my life, like my father, who feels that I should do things and see things differently.

Do I...change to suit him so he is no longer hurt?

Or do I live my life with integrity and trust my own instincts and choices?

We make adjustments for people's feelings on a regular basis, I'm not talking about politeness. I"m talking about honest to goodness inappropriate, controlling, unreasonable expectations that others impose on us in their own minds.

You can't please everyone.

Let go of the need to manage other's feelings about your choices!

Sis, I do understand that you have decisions to make, certainly. So make them and move on from them. Get the appraisal, decide on retirement. Pick one task at a time, give yourself a deadline to deal with it.

What's the worst that could happen is not what I ask myself, but what is the outcome that I fear most from this particular sitch. Sounds like you fear the D, losing the battle to save your M. You may, Sis (know that I say this hoping that the opposite is true for you). I may, Sis. Now, I accept that this may be so, but I still fight; I get up and work on myself and work on openness ( actually a pretty tough one for those of us who formerly believed M was just supposed to work).

Other people WILL hurt you, without a doubt. They will disappoint you, too, and not just friends, but husbands and sisters and mothers and IL's and your own children. As you work through your own problems, you will find a way to cope, to trust yourself again, and to deal with pain. You have a lot of pain right now, oodles. I'm tellin' you, Sis, it's early yet FOR YOU. This is just what many of us have gone through or ARE STILL going through.

Again, pick a task and work it out, stop leaving all to get done at some other more emotionally convenient time. Get that help from your Sis and mom and neighbors and such, they want to help, let them. You have the power to shape your future as best you can, so start taking those steps

Yeah. I know. I need to be kicked in the a$$. I suspect you don't mean it as a kick in the a$$...I'm saying it's what I need...someone who understands where I am emotionally to say, "You hurt, you still want to save your marriage, you are dealing with a lot, but you can do this as long as you break it down and take it one step at a time." That's what I'm hearing.

Doing so, however, is confronting the reality of the D, and I don't want to do that. Every step feels one more step closer to the edge of the cliff.

It starts by naming the fears, right? So I'll name them all first, and then go back to take a stab at the outcome I fear most.

I'm afraid of being divorced and alone and starting life over at 39 with two boys who don't have the advantage of an intact family or a dad who is truly present or any kind of moral example.
Worst case scenario: I am alone for the rest of my life in financial ruin with two kids who are emotional wrecks, unable to sustain a relationship, and didn't come close to meeting their full potential.
Probability (1-10): 1

I'm afraid that H is gone forever.
Worst case scenario: All I ever see again is WH, living happily ever after with RT, financially secure, in the bosom of his family, never having acknowledged or expressed any kind of remorse for what he did to me or the boys.
Probability (1-10): 7

I'm afraid I WON'T find a way to cope, or trust myself again, or deal with the pain. What happens if I can't??
Worst case scenario: I fall apart, have a breakdown, and end up in the local loony bin; thus leaving the boys with another abandonment.
Probability (1-10): 3

I'm afraid I won't be able to take any more pain...that there's too much already.
Worst case scenario: I shut down emotionally, and never feel again.
Probability (1-10): 2

I'm afraid that by letting people in too deep, I'll be hurt or betrayed again. I know this is a given, but opening myself up to the possibility of more hurt seems counterintuitive right now.
Worst case scenario: I remain isolated, OR I let someone get close and I end up hurt to this degree again...thus leading to the above shutting down emotionally, or suicide, or the loony bin.
Probability (1-10): of being hurt, 10. Of shutting down/suicide/loony bin, 2

I'm afraid that if I don't let people in, that I will fall apart from trying to do too much.
Worst case scenario: I have a breakdown and end up in the loony bin, leaving the boys with another abandonment.
Probability (1-10): 2

I'm afraid to trust myself, because I trusted myself before, and was burned by that, too....my trust was so incredibly misplaced and I didn't even know it.
Worst case scenario: I never have faith in myself or my ability to make decisions or take charge of my own life because I am forever confused about whether my instincts are correct.
Probability (1-10): 6

I'm afraid that I've felt this pain for so long that it will never go away or even become tolerable. I don't see it going away any time soon, so I'm afraid that it will be with me forever.
Worst case scenario: I live the rest of my life with pain at the level it is currently, never finding deep happiness again.
Probability (1-10): 2

Okay...so this little exercise shows that some of my fears are not really realistic, but those were the extremes. The truth is that something slightly less than "worst case" will happen...or even possibly that something closer to "best case" occurs.

Huh. Wouldn't that be something?

Clearly my biggest concern is never seeing H again and trusting myself. I don't have control over the first one, but I do have control over the second.

So I should work on that one. Any tips on this or the others?

So I should work on that one. Any tips on this or the others?


I read something the other day about worrying...it is something like "worry is like wanting it to happen".

Worry gets you NOWHERE.

Each one of those things can be counteracted with a plan.

If you want moral male examples for your sons...you look into Boy Scouts...Big Brother Program...stuff like that.

If you think you can't cope...you aren't going to. You don't have the luxury of not coping. You have two children that have been entrusted to you. Not coping is NOT an option. So, toss that out right now.

Letting people in...so what if you are guarded with your feelings. Nothing wrong with that. IF someone comes along, and they are the RIGHT person...it will not be an issue.

IMHO, you really need to stop with the loony bin, suicide talk. You aren't going to do that...again...because you have TWO children that YOU (and only you now) are responsible for. If you really thought this was a possibility I would encourage you to give them to their father where they will be safe from that. They might be with a moral-less man...but hey, they won't have to witness their Mother's descent into the pits of ******.


See where these things that you have listed are NOT an option.

Stop thinking about the what ifs. Those kinds of things are wasted thoughts.

committed

The "what ifs" help me to get some perspective on exactly WHAT it is that I am afraid of. The fear becomes somewhat more manageable and less "scary" if I break it down into the reality of what is LIKELY to happen.

When I break down those fears, I can get a handle on them...the "worst case" outcomes to my fears are shown to be not really all that probable. It turns the ambiguous, free-floating fear into something more real and concrete.

This makes it less scary, so I don't feel they are wasted thoughts.

I understand that it can all be counteracted with a plan...but a developing a plan requires confidence and trust in oneself, a certain level of peace of mind, a support system that helps enact the plan, and any number of other resources.

If I am frozen by my fear, then I am incapable of doing putting a plan together, much less carrying it out.

Not coping most certainly IS an option...people do it all the time: they fall into a deep clinical depression, they abuse substances, they run away or check out emotionally.

I don't WANT to be one of those, nor do I EXPECT to be, but I am AFRAID of not having the ability to cope. In all likelihood, I WILL cope...I'll get through each day, one at a time, as I have been.

But I have to acknowledge and pin down the fear in order to realize that the possibility of that fear actually coming to pass is pretty low.

So I still look at trusting myself as a pretty significant issue that I need to address. Maybe more accurately it's trusting God.

sis,

i think the break down you did was a good one.
i had a lot of those same fears and a lot of those fears kept me in my destructive marriage.

your fear of hurt. yes, it does hurt, yes it will hurt, it will hurt tremendously for awhile. there was a time i thought i would never stop crying. in fact, when my ex first left i was a mess. i had just started a new job and only lasted a few days because one day i went in and just could not stop crying. i am sure people thought i was nuts. but i knew one of the girls there and she knew the sitch so she explained to everyone.

it does eventually end. i do not hurt anymore. in fact, i am very glad to be away from my cheating ex now. but the hurt is real, it will happen, but you WILL get through it. will it change you forever? yes it will, but not always in a bad way.

trust. it will be hard to trust again.took me a while with that one. but i do trust now. i try to only have healthy people i can trust in my life. that means i have a very small circle around me but that is ok.

being alone. you will NOT be alone forever. i now have a man in my life who is everything i ever wanted. we share so much and are so much alike. have the same goals,etc. you can, at 39 start over and have a wonderful life on YOUR TERMS. I had to start over at 34, it can be done. 39 is still very young.

your ex living happily ever after? doubtful, but even if that does happen, that is out of your control. i know, i feel the same way about mine. but i can't control it. let that one go. you will not be on old angry bitter exwife. you will move on and be happy and healthier than ever.

your ex never saying he is sorry or acknowledging wrong. big chance he won't. again, out of your control. mine never will either i doubt. maybe on his deathbed, but before then, nope. nothing you can control. let it go.

you can get through this stuff, one at a time like you said. it is manageable. and it is ok to breakdown once in a while. you are human! you have emotions and feelings. there were times i thought i would aboslutely lose it. i just had to breathe and get through each day. it does get better with time.

finally, when i completely trusted god to take care of everything, he did. i put it all at his feet now. i had to learn to let go and let god. that meant i had to try and stop fixing everything immediately myself. i had to stop controlling. i feel so much better now that i let god handle it.

you are gonna make sis, even when you think you aren't, you will.

mlhb

I like the fact that when you broke the fears down, you also considered the probability of that being so. Your biggest fear WAS my biggest fear. I have come to a place of peace with it. If I am no longer with PWC, I WILL be with someone else eventually.

You are 39 years young, and are a wonderful woman, who is learning tons about relationships and how to be in them. Your boys will be fine, as long as you take care of them as you have been. That is part of the reason that we talk so much about how to handle the situation and talking to the kids; so that they understand the gravity of the sitch and learn from it, hopefully, what NOT to do...

LS:

Let me look at your fears:



I like your ranking of the worst case: 1

Because, you might no longer have the "nuclear" family, but your children are loved and have a large support system anyway. The Disadvantage inherent to the "unintact" family is that the economic and social circumstances overwhelm single parents, who are not very strong to begin with, in many cases. You however, are none of these. And I would adjust the worst cases upward, as "meeting thier full potential" is up to them, not you. You can only give them the path.



That might be true. And the things that you state about thier R might be true. Beyond your control. Don't worry about it. RT could win 20 Million in the Lottery tommorrow and dump your H. You can be afraid that H is gone forever. It's his choice to return. Will you want him if he does?



As someone else suggested, you seem to fear the looney bin and you should give the kids to WH to avoid that. You have struggled with this thing off the floor of the prison cell. Your coping skills are way higher than they were before. Whatever comes next? Small potatoes.



See the prison cell line above. Pain? Pain has been your constant companion. When you meet new people, you can turn to the side and say: "and this is my friend, PAIN" So, address it and continue moving forward like you have.



Yep, might happen. Remember the onion. The onion has many layers. You have to peel the layers to get to the center. You can also just cut it in half. Use the layer approach with people. Only reveal slowy what you want the other to know. And if they hurt you eventually, so be it. Beyond your control.



Then you would have fallen apart a long time ago. Doing to much? Somedays it is tough to function. But you have moved past much of that. You have been the single parent. You have taken care of the house and increased your hours at work. Recently, it seems that the real burden comes from facing the requirements of the D. Compared to the other things you have accomplished, (the pain of doing them notwithstanding) that seem like a small burden.



Two differnet things here. You can and do trust yourself. And this experenice you have been thru leads to even more trust in yourself. The trust that you placed in your H wasn't misplaced, he decided to reject it.



No, it won't.

Trust me.

LG

Okay, just a quite note before I head off to the wedding (wonder how I'll react to this, BTW).

Cracks me up...the only thing I CAN be sure of is that I won't feel THIS pain forever!

The rest...who knows?

Later, all...

"I'm afraid to trust myself, because I trusted myself before, and was burned by that, too....my trust was so incredibly misplaced and I didn't even know it.
Worst case scenario: I never have faith in myself or my ability to make decisions or take charge of my own life because I am forever confused about whether my instincts are correct.
Probability (1-10): 6"

Sis,
Probability: 1

You ultimately trust yourself again. Because you really are the only person you can trust with your own life - and you will figure that out soon enough. Right now, you don't see it, but you will.

And you will trust others, too. You already do. When you wrote this, you were standing deep in the fear trough. When your sons run up and hug you on Christmas morning, you are on top of the trust mountain.

Depending on where you're standing, that probability factor can swing from +10 to -10...............

It's all relative to the big picture, your mood, your stress level, and what's happening in your life right that minute.

Overall, you will regain your trust for yourself, and for other people - you really will.

Right now, you trust LK, DS11, and lots of others in your life.

The tough part is staying open to them. My advice is, "Let your friends BE your friends." They do want to help you - so let them.

I'm also in the camp with the other folks who say that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't need to be cut out of your life. Heck, I'd be the Lone Ranger if I had to do that!!!!!

I don't know about your WH living "happily ever after". That's a fantasy. Nobody ever does. So the "7" probability on that one..........way too high. More like a negative 3.

SB