Even so - if nothing else, you would think that might get his attention on just how very serious this was. But it didn't. He just kept on doing nothing.


This is probably the weirdest part of this whole thing. I've been hanging around MB for way too long and I don't remember a situation like this one - a case where the OP gets divorced and the WS leaves his family, but then he goes and moves in with *Mommy and Daddy* instead of with the OP???

Is this what Rat Turd had in mind? Is this supposedly only until he's divorced so it doesn't look bad in front of the kids or something? I can't imagine Turd is happy about this.


I think the real question, Sis, is why a grown man who abandoned his family for (supposedly) another woman is not living with that woman but has moved back home to his emotionally abusive parents instead. I do not get this *at all*.


And so WH continues to lead a life where nothing is expected of him, no responsibilities, no nothing - like a doper who sits in his room smoking pot all day and is content to do nothing more. And again - the real question here is not why his parents do this (that's obvious - they're trying to save face by making WH the scapegoat for their own failure in raising him) - it's why on earth a grown man would just accept this and do NOTHING to stand up and help himself or his family (his own wife and sons).

I still don't understand how a man like this is able to be a cop. Those two things aren't adding up to me. Maybe it's because police work is much like the military, where most everything is regimented and you are told what to do and how to feel. And maybe it is something of an outlet for him as far as standing up for himself and he just doesn't need anything more.


I get the same vibe even just through this website - that there is something deeply wrong with this man that would take huge amounts of professional help to even begin to sort out. And here's what I want to say to you, even though I know it's not what you want to hear - is this really the kind of man you want? Is this really the kind of man you want raising your sons?


It wouldn't help, Sis. You've been saying those things to him. It's not enough for you to believe in him - unless and until he finds some way to believe in himself, and stand up for his own self and his own family, it won't help. It just won't help.


Well, it must not be very good crack or else he would moved into the crackhouse by now and would not be living with Mommy and Daddy.


I don't see one ounce of pride in this man, Sis. I see somebody who takes very, very bad advice from those around him (his parents and Turd) and lets these people do his thinking for him - but that's okay, because then he can blame those same people when his life goes down the toilet.

He can't blame you for his screw-ups because you've been a good wife to him and a good mother to his sons. That places an expectation on him to be an equally good husband to you and an equally good father to his sons. Maybe that's why you had to go.

Gee, what would his parents think if he really was a success?

Oh, well, I know you said you didn't want any armchair psychology done on WH and that's exactly what I tried to do. But here's my question for you: Are you sure you really want a man like this? For the last couple of years, he has shown you who he really is. When you were alone in that jail cell, he was showing you who he really is. Are you sure you want a man like this?

Maybe you should stop waiting for him to make a choice. Maybe you should be the one to make the choice.


Yeah, that's probably what they would say, but if you tell them how extremely passive he has been and how OW got divorced but he moved in with his parents instead of in with her - well, it might be worth it to get a professional take on it.

And I'd sure like to see what others here think, too. I know that virtually all WS are the same, but there is something about this one that is making me wonder - wonder if maybe there is not some very real and very deep-seated emotional illness going on with him. And if that's really the case, he sure shouldn't be doing police work. It's not safe for *him*, if nothing else.

Let us know if you talk to the Harleys about this.
Good luck.
Mulan

I just don't get this advice AT ALL.

He is a WH. It is not helpful to enable Sis' mistaken beliefs that her WH is any different or that she is ALL-POWERFUL enough to control the uncontrollable. By talking to a WH, she will not get any idea of how he feels about her now. Given that he remains ADDICTED to RT, he will say the SAME as he has always said and Sis will feel HURT and UNPROTECTED. She is PROTECTING HERSELF from such hurt by remaining in PLAN B.



What are you thinking, LG? This is an ASSUMPTION. He certainly could have, at least, had EXTENDED PHONE CONVERSATIONS with her. That is CONTACT. CONTACT IS CONTACT.



This would do NOTHING, IMO, to "save your marriage"..YOUR BEST HOPE CONTINUES TO BE PLAN B...and will make your PLAN B into a SHAM...WORTHLESS...



How do you KNOW this? Yes, the HARLEYS recommend TWO YEARS. What makes Sis' H any different? I say NOTHING. NOTHING makes him different than any other WS.



LG, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? Breaking PLAN B absolutely does give him a FIX and defeats the purpose of the entire plan.

Plan B is not an on and off thing. It is a plan that says I will not have any contact with you until you end your A with the OP. It is meant to be followed to a T in order to be effective. If not followed, call it whatever you want but don't call it PLAN B. Call it do it your way and I'm telling you, Sis, when I did it MY WAY is when I really messed up...

I think there's a sense of wanting to ENABLE you in your desire TO DO, TO FIX and when and if we do that, IMO, it is not LOVING. It is LOVING for us to encourage you in your EFFORTS to CHANGE..to encourage you in your efforts to LET GO AND LET GOD.

One VERY VERY real possibility that WH hasn't moved in with RT is that she is collecting spousal support, which will end if she cohabitates or remarries. RT's XH even mentioned that to me once.

In which case his parents are just further enabling him by giving him a place to park himself while that spousal support clock runs out.

So let's assume for the moment that this is the case...he essentially CAN'T move in with RT because it would hit them in the pocketbook. Does that change the equation at all?

And in the interest of being fair here, WH did not seem this way until he actually left home. He seemed determined to do the right thing. He acknowledged his dad's PA tendenhcies. He was very sensitive to justice and morality, but pragmatic, too, in the way that cops are. Pretty realistic.

My guess is that he's unconsciously taking his parent's abuse as his just punishment for what he's done. He knows he's done something wrong and horrific, and he needs to pay for it, so he'll take it from his dad. He's dealt with his dad his whole life...he can't face me, though.

I don't know.....

To BR and mimi:

That’s sort of what God had to say to me this morning. It was a long chat…and I know this sounds weird, okay? It’s not like I actually hear voices, it’s sort of like a conversation with my conscience.

I started out being pissed at Him, and told him so. I figure He can take it, so I let it fly.

Eventually, His point was this: “Yeah, you’ve been doing this a long time. Yeah, you’ve learned a lot. Yeah, you’ve grown. All good. But you are not in a vacuum, here, LS. I’m working on a lot of people through this. Other people need to learn through this experience, too. I’m working on them, too. You need to be patient…and this is something you haven’t learned yet.”

“Just let me be. Let me do what I know needs to be done.”

He did acknowledge that I am doing the right thing (fighting for my M) for the right reasons, but He didn’t have any response to my questions about why He brought WH and I together and consecrated our union if He intended to just let it go “poof.”

He didn’t have an answer for everything. Sometimes He was just quiet. I told him that was incredibly aggravating and insensitive. (I told you I let it fly)

Why did he give me the tools—the grit and determination and fight—if He wasn’t going to give me the opportunity to use them to fulfill the promises I made to Him?

He reminded me that I used to say that I had to slog my way through a lot of [censored] to get to where I am, and that WH has to slog through a he11 of a lot more, so it takes more time.

Again...I don't know...I sure wish I did...and I sure hope you don't all think I'm nuts.

Part of me REALLY wants to let WH know that I'll be there for him when and if he decides to make the leap. That he won't be making the leap alone; I've got his back now.

No conversation. No discussion, no re-giving of the PBL. No coming all the way out of the dark. Just a TM.

I feel like he tried to make the leap last summer, and I let him down. And when I say make the leap, I don't mean just from RT...I also mean from the legacy of his parents...

I just wonder if knowing that I'm out here will give him some confidence to DO it...otherwise, it is waaay too easy to just cower in the darkness with RT.

With all of his parent's negativity, and his own guilt and shame, I don't know that he has the strength to make the break on his own unless he knows that there is someone to provide cover.

THAT'S where this is coming from....

Just to reiterate:
This is my wish, my impulse...not that I'm going to do it.

The TM I didn't send was something like: There's still a way out. Take it. I've got your back.

The end! Total blackness. Back to total blackness. Just a poking of the pot, not a whole stir. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyhoo, just a thought...

You disrespect him by not having the FAITH that he can do this on his own.

You are disrespecting him, Sis, and that is MORE OF THE SAME.

In thinking about my H, I value him and love him even more knowing that HE DID IT HIS WAY..IN HIS OWN TIME..ON HIS OWN...without me having to coerce him or push him. HE HAD THAT LETTER, HE HAD HIS CONSCIENCE, HE HAD HIS SENSE OF MORALITY. He got himself out a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE MESS..all on his own....

had you ever thought that this may some sort of addiction that you have as an antidote for your anxiety...

TM or not..it is still breaking PLAN B...

Do you think he's actually living at his parents, or just using that as an address? A place to be when he has the kids? A nice cover story that gets her around the alimony issue and him around the caveat that the kids can't be around her.

I imagine he's spending most of his time at RT's, even if it's not his "official" address.

Good point, mimi. Just to be clear: I actually DO believe that he can do this....I'm kind of wanting to let him know that this is the case...??? KWIM?

I guess my urge to DO just wants to make sure he doesn't give up because everyone else has given up on him, no one else believes in him, no one else has expectations of him. The message of my PBL is drowned out by the negative voices, which is ALL he hears anymore.

I suppose the truth is if he DOESN'T have what it takes, if he doesn't have the strength to reach escape velocity or ignore those negative voices--with or without the knowledge that I've got his back, then it doesn't really matter.

Oh well....I don't want to get everyone in an uproar...just pondering...

Sis ~ I love your conversation with God - I don't think you are crazy, I think that your conversation sounds remarkably like the conversations I've read by Ann, a modern Catholic mystic.

I agree with mimi's point about disrespecting your husband.

The assumption that he can not do this without you is not fair.

One of the things I learned about as an eternally recovering codependent was that I had built my self esteem by making my husband out to be less.

Your impulse to TM is based on fear. Fear that you are not good enough and he will not choose you. Fear that silence means happiness (not!!!!). Fear that your husband will not change.

But if YOU save the day by DOING - you get to feel better about you. And when your husband is less...you get to feel superior about YOU.

Turn your focus back to your improvements. God didn't give you this determination and fight to fix your marriage. He gave you this determination to fix YOU.

Sis, I was in Plan B for nearly 9 months. Initially, I was pretty dark, had my intermediary and such. After 3 mos. he poked the pot, and asked to speak, so i did, and it was a waste of Plan B time. He was looking to start another R with Aimless, and probably feeling guilty.

I went back to darkness, and then he poked again (in Dec '06), one conversation and some emails, then back to dark, then the false recovery in February (one month lost), then [censored] dark dark, intermediary again, then May 5, 2007, PWC comes to me with the knowledge that he has moved out of Aimless' apartment and was in his OWN place, had broken it off with her, NC, and wanted to know if we could talk. He ASKED, no demands. As it should be.

Some people take a long time, and are enabled along the way. PWC was enabled by family and friends, who took him in when he had no place to stay, not enough money, etc. His A's went on because he was helped, as in your WH's case. It wasn't until AFTER PWC moved in with Aimless that he wanted to attempt recovery. Then it took a false recovery, and me being completely dark (2 more months), for PWC to find HIS way. I had completely let go; I had learned my lesson.

Sis, there is nothing you can really say or do to affect the change that your WH must make. He has to see his own life, his own choices. As long as he is enabled, this will take time. Even if/when you divorce, darkness is best, for you, for your family.

I'm sure he is not THRILLED about living in his parents' home. What a buzz kill that must be. Just leave him be.

What do you mean by "this?" You mean wanting to DO? Yeah...wanting to DO is an antidote to anxiety. Usually that's a productive response.

And don't forget...I've been MUCH better about NOT acting impulsively on those "drives," I just TALK about them now (so bear with me please)! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AmI: IL's address as a cover? Maybe. All speculation. I NEVER do drive-bys at either ILs or RTs, so I have no facts. But now that his parents are home, I don't think they would go along with that...but WHO KNOWS??? I've learned the hard way not to have any expectations of them anymore...

BR and SL: Gotcha.

You are both right on...and your points STICK.

Thanks for helping me realize where this is coming from (the old fear response) and that this is a stew that needs to simmer until it's DONE, and I don't know the recipe.

You guys are wonderful...all of you...thanks for helping me look at all sides, getting it out there, and processing it.

I want to continue to reflect on and internalize what my conversation with God was about...and thank you also for not calling me crazy...

Just a quick question sis...How do you know that the message of your plan b letter has been drowned out by negative voices? Is it at all possible that your WH is in fact making a choice for himself by remaining in the affair with RT. He needs to feel the consequences of HIS CHOICES. You can't save him from those choices. Do you really believe you can talk WH out of this affair? If that were true there would be no need for a Plan A or Plan B. You have said that you do want to send a TM, not that you have made up your mind to do so...but just understand that he will get a fix from any type of contact with you and most likely will continue on in affair land knowing that Sis is still there waiting on him...I think Mulan brought up some really good points..I just want to add, if you have to talk him out of his affair how long will it take RT to talk him back into it? Don't enable his passive behavior. You want a remorseful repentant H back, not a WH that you have to push and pull with RT. His passive behavior is something that is of concern. Let him find his way back to you on his own. If it is God's plan it will happen.

Good point robertswife!

Part of the reason that our recovery didn't take flight in February, was that Aimless would SEE him and call him and have lunch with PWC, and talk him out of his choices. OR, he talked himself right back into the A, because it was HARD being with me, and letting her go, especially when she contacted him regularly.

Sis, your WH has to make this choice, clearly and consicefly. HE has to choose to be DONE with it all. PWC would not have come home, had I tried to convince him that it was the best thing for all. NOPE, that never worked, in over two years of h3ll, that never worked.

Before you take any action, would you consider another session with Steve or Jennifer?
I know you didn't seem to click with Steve -- maybe Jennifer would be a better fit for you.

I wonder if you've had any further thoughts about moving?
Let WH have your house. That should calm DS11 anxiety.
Put your energies into creating a new home. For you and your boys. In the school district you want them in.
Away from the gauntlet....
It would give you something positive and rewarding to DO.

So, lemme get this straight - Turd divorced her husband and WH left you and your boys so that he and Turd could be together, but then it turns out that Turd would rather keep her ex-husband's money than move in with your WH?

Or - even worse - *WH* would rather keep Turd's ex-husband's money than move in with her?

At least one of them, if not both, is choosing her ex's money over their relationship?

I guess my first thought was that if they really cared about each other, the last thing they'd want is her ex's money - but then again, what kind of p**sy man would put his girlfriend's ex's money over having a life with her?

Sorry to be so blunt, but crikey - things here just aren't adding up. This man seems absolutely determined to be the world's biggest passive-passive/aggressive.

He abandons his own family because they give him a high standard of love and care and therefore naturally expect him to do the same for them in return. But to a P/A, that expectation feels like control, so he defeats their "control" by leaving.

His Turd-girlfriend divorces her husband to be with him. Now she's got her claws in him and expects him to focus on her the way she's focused on him - but to a P/A, that feels like control, so he defeats that by living with his parents instead of with her and uses the p**sy-man excuse of "We need your ex-husband's money".

His parents hate having him publicly abandon his family and publicly carry on with a cheap trampy Turd, but if he goes back to his wife and children like a Real Man should that's only doing what his parents want and to a P/A that feels like control. So, he defeats them by doing - nothing.

And there he sits.

The only things I've seen that get through to a P/A are:
1) Call them on their behaviour *every time*
and
2) Open the cage door.

You've done the second, but I don't know if anything ever happened with the first.

In the last year or so I've learned more than I ever wanted to learn about dealing with a passive/aggressive spouse and I'm telling you, Sis, your WH has got to be the biggest and most determined and most damaged P/A I think I've ever seen.

I don't think your Plan B will have any effect on him except to make it easier to sit there and passively-passively/aggressively do Nothing while you sit in limbo waiting for him to do Something.

Which he is never going to do. The *only* way he knows of dealing with the world is through P/A tactics and the worse things get for him, the more he clings to P/A tactics.

You'd have to start dealing with him very directly and calling him on his behaviour very clearly, but that would mean breaking your Plan B. And the message of "I've got your back" would do nothing but enable a P/A. On the other hand, a message like "I know exactly what you're doing and here it is - " and listing the stuff I wrote above - *might* begin to have some effect.

I think you need really expert help here, Sis, from a professional who really really understands P/A behaviour. Your WH is so deeply entrenched that Plan B will only make him comfy and not cause him pain at all.

Remember, MB principles do not work in the face of addictions and/or emotional illness. Many professionals believe that hard-core, deep-rooted P/A behaviour are *both* - and if it's obvious to me that WH learned from his FOO to cope with the world solely through P/A tactics and literally knows no other way, then surely it would be obvious to a professional.

I just hate to see you waiting and hoping that Plan B is going to get through to him when in reality it won't affect him any more than it would affect an alcoholic or dope addict. It just makes it easier for him to get his fix, but you've got to understand that in his case the fix is not just Turd - it's primarily the P/A behaviour that he's addicted to and cannot cannot CANNOT imagine living without. As I said above, he knows NO other way of coping with the world.

Hope this helps. And if I turn out to be all wrong and he calls this afternoon saying that Plan B has done the trick and he's dumped the Turd and wants to come home, I'll gladly eat my hat and yours too.
Mulan

Are you sure that DOING in response to your ANXIETY is a productive response? Like I was trying to tell you yesterday, I've found that it hasn't been for me. It's a response that I learned in CHILDHOOD, thinking that I could FIX PEOPLE and RELATIONSHIPS to soothe my pain. HOW MAGICAL..thinking that I could control the uncontrollable...and how denigrating to others to think that I KNOW THE RIGHT ANSWERS for them. I used to EMASCULATE MY HUSBAND, not giving him the opportunity TO DO ON HIS OWN and that's what I was seeing in you. THAT'S A MAJOR CHANGE THAT MY H HAD TO SEE IN ME and he still has to call me on it..it's such a HABITUAL, INGRAINED RESPONSE.

My life is a zillion times better because I now DO NOTHING in response to THAT SORT OF ANXIETY. I self-soothe, meditate, talk to GOD, say out loud to myself: "THAT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS"...moreso than anyone else my now ADULT SONS love that change in me..they say to me that they have to have the opportunity to learn from their mistakes...

DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENTS IS WHAT IT IS...you can't assume anything that your H is thinking or doing..NOW or NEVER... UNLESS HE TELLS YOU..how can you know?

BR, who helped me with this along with PEP and LA and many others on this here forum, raises an important point. It was a SELFISH on my part. It was a self-esteem booster for me. It made me feel GOOD..like I had all of the answers but it BELITTLED others.

Your H has to DO THIS ON HIS OWN and he is CERTAINLY CAPABLE OF DOING SO and if he does it on his own, he will be repentant and he will be returning because he has chosen you. This is the man that you are wanting. This is a man that you can respect, that you can look up to, that you can lean on...A MAN THAT KNOCKS ON YOUR DOOR BECAUSE HE HIMSELF HAS CHOSEN YOU..You want to hear him say like I heard my H say: "Believe me, I can do this; it's hard but I can do this"...I had to sit back and let him do it....

And BTW, IMO, your H is a garden variety WS..not necessarily PA or anything..

RT likely strokes his ego moreso than any woman ever had...

Their relationship is an affair, therefore dysfunctional and abnormal.

A PLAN B IS EFFECTIVE IF IT IS DARK AND THE BS DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE WS IS DOING. There is no way to know of it's effectiveness until he tries to reach you..just like SL's H did and if he doesn't try to contact you, he's continuing in the relationship with RT. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, IMO....Garden variety WS..Garden variety need for use of MB Principles....

Mulan:

I would gladly join you in Hat Munching.

I don't generally agree with your views on P/A behavior, but the WH in this case....

I just don't *get* the WH in this case, anymore.

I really don't.


And what was I thinking, Mimi?

I know that RT is on the phone for extended periods of time to WH. Remember, it allows all that time for kiddos' to call Mom.

And he may be co-habitating. That little tidbit tossed to RT's lawyer ex-H will probably result in a stoppage of funds....

And Mimi, I read your thread. You had cantact through out your "dark" period.

You had to do something to shake up your WH. To force some light into his Wayward brain. A nice "For Sale" sign did that.

What "For Sale" sign would you recommend for LilSis?

She doesn't have to DO ANYTHING. That is correct. But if she HAD TO DO SOMETHING? What would you recommend?

The best bet for LilSis? Talk to Dr's Harley. Willard, Steve, Jennifer, whichever makes the most "click".

IF LilSis showed UP and said hello? What's the worst thing that can happen?

She broke her Plan B? She fed WH a "fix"? She gave him more P-P/A time per Mulan?

She opened herself up to pain? Oh, Yes.

But it's her life.

Personnally, I'm starting to lean real close to having LS meeting on Aug 2nd and signing off on this guy.

Waiting another 2 years for this thing to burn out is going to create a much larger emotional toll than ending it.

Especially if it doesn't "Burn Out"

This is my VHO on this thread. Not others around here. This one.

So, LS, you don't have to DO ANYTHING. Plan B is working for you, maybe not WH. But if you thought it thru and decided to break Plan B, it's your life. I wouldn't TM him. What's the point? I would look him in the eye.

But I would call the Harley's first. And keep talking with your IC.

LS: You do like the debate don't you? Helps you to understand why you are going to do the steps your thinking about. Your own personal roundtable. Somebody, sometimes, has to bring a contrary view to the table to make sure you do not get only the same anwser. Because it exposes the real problems sometimes with that contrary view, and removes the doubts that you have made the right choice. Let me be the contrary one here.

And if you think it through, and reject my idea, I'm ok with that. But you have then removed that doubt from your mind that you are doing the right thing.

LG

Sis, I'm not going to pretend that there was absolutely NO contact with my WH during my Plan B. There were emails and one two phone calls (he called, mistakingly, thinking I was Aimless, so I called him back and reamed him). From what PWC says, he was affected by what I said, but he STILL continued to hump and pump with her, and still continued to be away from his family.

It really is your call, and i will support you in any sort of aftermath or continuation of Plan B. I will not say I told you so. Sometimes, we need to be reminded of the truth ourselves. We need to experience the pain AGAIN, to prove some point to ourselves, or to see if they might flinch (they won't).

LG has a valid point; I was not perfect in my Plan B, but I was dark as *I* could muster. I did go completely dark after our false recovery, but the chink in the armor at Hotel Infidel had already been made when PWC attempted the false recovery. He showed Aimless that he would leave her as he left me; that can't make a OP very comfortable upon the WS return.

Think long and hard about this. Truly, I don't know what REAL difference contacting him would make. He'll contact you when/if he is ready. Even if that's two years from now, so be it. I think letting go of him is a more healthy response in Plan B, but that is just me, after two false recoveries. I often wonder if this timeline could have been shortened had I found MB sooner and implemented the plans BETTER.