Not up to us

Sorry guys, I realize most on MB won't like it, but I still stand by what I said earlier. My FWH was also PA (still is to some extent) and wouldn't act or react unless he was stirred. Just my take on things. What's that song? The Dance?

"Looking back on the memory of
The dance we shared beneath the stars above
For a moment all the world was right
How could I have known you'd ever say goodbye
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance
Holding you I held everything
For a moment wasn't I the king
But if I'd only known how the king would fall
Hey who's to say you know I might have changed it all
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance
Yes my life is better left to chance
I could have missed the pain but I'd of had to miss the dance"

Psychological diagnosis should be made by professionals ONLY.

Anything else is simply disrespectful judgements.

Honestly it just doesn't matter what is up with her husband.

What is important is LilSis's recovery and growth. Stirring the pot right now will harm her. Learning to Let Go and Let God and to be patient and willing and QUIET is not nearly as interestingi as stirring the pot.

Her life, her story, her thread is NOT here to entertain and please others. It's disturbing to me that when she gets quiet and thoughtful, there is always a contingent urging something that would result in drama filled posts and discussion.

The right action for all the wrong motivations will not achieve the desired outcome.

LilSis needs work on her motivations. Right now, her urge to DO is more about her argument with God than it has anything to do with what stupid RT and WH and the inlaws are doing.

EGG ZAK LEE BrambleRose!

Life has it's own way of doing that; problems with the children, illness in the family, WH having his own illnesses or problems, BS changing, etc. The world around a WS does not sit still, and they will be stirred by it, UNLESS we enable them.

I think about Mimi putting her house up for sale. It was life just happening around a WS. I think of going to seek counseling for my son--the world just kept turning, and everyone else's life needing tending. No one was waiting for the WS to budge, we were budging ourselves, moving forward without them.

I think if Sis starts to make those big decisions, stops stalling, starts living in the fear, working with the problems, this is enough to show the WS what she is up to; she's up to living her life without him...

Bottom line...no need to do anything NOW.

And I DO like and appreciate the debate for exactly the reasons you state, LG. It's like re-examining my position. Doesn't mean I will do anything, or act differently, but I think it's healthy to revisit things every now and then, make sure I'm on the right track.

mimi: When I say that usually action is an effective antidote to anxiety I guess I am speaking more in terms of work and kids and life in general. I am anxious about the garden getting overgrown, so I weed and move stuff around. I am anxious about the paint on the garage so I arrange for a day when my friends and I will scrape and paint. Even in relationships...I've had an argument with my sister, and I'm feeling badly (anxious) about it, so I call her to apologize.

In each example, anxiety is reduced by action, and the problem is also resolved. So acting in response to anxiety should not be presumed to be the wrong choice. Whether or not to act is always a choice. I'm simply revisiting the choice...here...I'm not doing anything except exploring it.

Anyway...

I don't "get" WH either. I don't recognize him, I don't understand him, I don't understand his parents' actions.

Maybe he's just a typical WH. Maybe he's P-P/A. Maybe he's MLC. Maybe this truly was an exit affair. Maybe he was molested as a child and has repressed it for years. Maybe he's gay. Maybe he has multiple personality disorder. Who knows? We can speculate all we want. All I can do is control me.

Breaking Plan B would do nothing to alter his behavior (unless by some miracle). It MIGHT satisfy a need that I have to make one last stand, so that I can move on with confidence that I did everything I could.

And despite his dad's poo-pooing of it, WH does go to counseling ever other week. I know because the EOBs still come to the house. And this therapist is supposed to be quite good, especially with men's issues. I've heard this from two different sources, both of whom work in the field.

We all know that he's got to get there on his own. Just like I have to get where I'm going on my own. (And I can tell you, though, that it's a heck of a lot easier for me to get where I'm going when I have a strong support system around me, backing me up, cheering me on. WH doesn't have that now...except the "support system" that supports the A. YUCK).

Either I move on, or I stay in this sort of quasi-limbo land. I can stay in quasi-limbo land for as long as I choose, but realistically, I will be here at LEAST until the D is final. If I can be accepting of this, then it makes it a bit more tolerable.

At that point, I revisit where I am again. Am I ready to move on? Do I need to keep working for full acceptance? What does "moving on" look like to me?

But I don't feel compelled to do anything, right now.

Even if I didn't do things the MB way, I do speak from the position of a happily recovered marriage. I really do try and be careful when I post. My apologies if anyone thinks I'm out to "stir the pot" for my own personal entertainment. Speaking for myself NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Sis, anything I post to you is because I am SINCERE in wanting to help you. If my suggestions or opinions are wrong then I apologize. I would never want to HARM you. It is YOUR life and your marriage and I respect that. If you don't want me to post anymore I won't.

In regards to ANXIETY, I've been referring to PANIC or even TERROR..when I feel THAT and IMPULSIVELY DO is when I GOOF big time...

INTYWAYS...



This is all that matters.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quite apart from the disruption to LS's personal journey, I really can't imagine that there is ANYTHING external that would get through to her WH at this point.

How many wake-up calls could one man experience?

He's been ejected from the marital home, has watched his wife jailed as a result of his provocation, has only limited access to his sons, is being hung out to dry by the legal channels, has watched his mistress's family disintegrate, and is overseeing the destruction of his own.

If none of this has woken him up, then I'm pretty sure any intervention from LilSis won't do the trick.

This WH needs to learn from painful experience, and that's going to take time....lots of time. You ever tried to tell a 17-year old that something he's doing is going to be a big disaster? And does he say "Gosh, you're right. Better call it off."? Or do you have to wait until he gets stung, and stung again, and you wait through all the evasions and rationalisations because that's the only way he's going to get it?

This WH strikes me as being a great big born-again adolescent, acting the part of New Young Rebel in his parents' home, dating the baaaad girl his parents don't approve of, and admiring his clever self in the mirror.

LilSis, please don't beat yourself up over everything else you might have done. He's a husband and a father - it was up to him to manage his life such that he could fulfil those roles properly. Don't overfunction for him.


TA

You know, a lot of this started with my ramblings last night, so no, I don't want to get a big uproar started.

I did have that great conversation with God, and I really want to spend some time tonight, when it's quiet and I'm alone, to think more about that, and maybe continue the conversation, if I'm lucky. (He doesn't always answer the phone) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And then I posted that I had typed out a TM that I didn't send...but that I was okay with not sending it...and I think that others here have validated that was the right choice.

I do really just need to worry about ME. That doesn't mean I won't wonder about WH, the ILs, or RT, or I won't speculate on WH's "issues," whatever they may be, or have an urge to DO something.

However, God was telling me this morning to just hang back; to rest assured that he IS working (because I told him I didn't think he was doing squat, thank you very much), and that these things take time, it's not all about me and where I happen to be.

I'm really not in a place right now to do anything. I can think about it, contemplate it, but I know that I will end up hurt or drama will erupt, and I don't need that...no drama, no major life changes...there's enough of that going on as is. This is a good dark, quiet place for me right now.

Oh, my! Goodness no!! I don't take ANYTHING here as less than sincere attempts to be helpful. I welcome all the differing opinions; as I said, it helps me to think things through.

I really appreciate what you said. I wonder if my WH's sitting there shell-shocked by the wreckage of his life, unable or unwilling or too afraid to budge. Maybe a nudge would help...maybe not...I'm not doing anything now. Except maybe pray more.

Please don't stop posting, meggy!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Whew... thanks Sis.

Praying ALWAYS helps. I loved how you said you let it fly while you were praying. God has to love that! Way better coming from the heart than just meaningless learned recitals. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, another poke -


Nope. He's not. Not for one minute. He's not shell-shocked and he's not afraid. He's actually doing just fine because he's WINNING, and he's winning because HE is now controlling all of the people who have tried to control him.

You've got to look at it through P/A glasses, Sis, or he will only continue to baffle and frustrate you:

1) You and the boys tried to "control" him by being a good family to him *and therefore placing a heavy expectation on him to do the same*. Expectations are "controlling", so, he defeated you and controlled YOU instead by leaving you.

2) Turd tries to "control" him by divorcing her husband for him, and no doubt by pressuring WH to be a public couple with her and eventually marry her. So, he defeats her and controls her instead by refusing to move in with her under the guise of "we need your ex-husband's money".

3) His own parents try to "control" him by wanting him to go back to his own wife and children and be a good responsible husband and father. So, he defeats and controls them by refusing to leave and by sitting in their house like a 14-year-old boy.

Do you not see the pattern here? Do you not see that he has managed to defeat EVERYBODY close to him and fix it so that NOT ONE OF THEM HAS WHAT THEY WANT FROM HIM?

Sure, his life stinks. Sure, his wife and kids are abandoned and he's running around with the town tramp and his parents have not one ounce of respect for him.

But - hey, he's WINNING! He did not let ANY of these people tell him what to do. He did not give ANY of these people anything they wanted from him. And to a P/A, that is more important than life itself.

Sis, he will never change this behaviour without some very serious outside help. He has lived this way all his life and has only gotten more and more and more deeply entrenched since the affair started.

Please don't make the mistake of thinking he's sad and miserable and shell-shocked. He's not. In his P/A brain, he is WINNING, and he would MUCH rather live a life that would stink to anyone else AS LONG AS HE FEELS HE IS WINNING AND IS NOT BEING CONTROLLED BY ANYONE.

To the P/A, *NOTHING* is worse than allowing someone else to "control" you. You must never, ever forget that if you are going to make any attempt to deal with them, because everything they do (especially in personal relationships) revolves 100% around that idea.

Please read the article in my sig line again. I'm only bringing this up now because *if* he makes some move towards coming back, you are going to have to deal with this seriously nasty P/A disease before he could ever be a healthy partner for you.

And it may not be worth the further torment that this will put you through.
Mulan

Wow Mulan....That's some good stuff. I think my ex WW may have a hint of P/A based on what you describe above. Not as bad as Lilsis WH but still some evidence nonetheless.

I simple try and create personal boundaries and if she violates one of them then I react with sudden and overwhelming "force" (not literally but figuratively). She gets this for the moment anyway.

Post deleted by Pepperband

Sis,

Without diagnosing anybody with anything (as I, too, pondered about PWC and P/A tendencies), I think your WH is just that a WAYWARD HUSBAND. Yes, he filed for a D. Yup, he may fully go through with it, and yup, you may never see him again. These are not your concerns. Your concerns are learning and preparing yourself for your life, regardless of who is in it, be it you going solo, finding another mate down the road, or recovery with your H.

Your job is to take care of you. Your job is to find your happy (I know, that's not so easy), to be the best woman you can be.

If your WH is P/A, do you really think that you can change that right now, anyway, or even make a dent? He'll be busy blaming you for the dent...

If he's anything like my FWH or my BIL or my MIL (hmmm... runs in the family?) this very well could be. Anyone of them have done exactly that (sat there) for as long as I've known them. You'd RARELY get an apology, action or movement, from any of them, unless forced. When trouble came the most you'd get is them complaining about the trouble but doing nothing about it-- and most of the time they brought the trouble on themselves because they sat for so long thinking the problem would take care of itself!

My DH has greatly improved in this area and recognizes that he has this weakness. He actually catches himself now. It has helped our relationship immensely (now that I'm not constantly stickin' my nose in to tell him HOW to fix things.) I'm a "gotta do" kind of girl myself and it's gotten me in trouble BUT it has also nipped things in the bud many times and alleviated a lot of unncessary pain.

LS,

Have you talked with your boys since they've been gone?

A few pages back, you mentioned you had not, but didn't want to contact them for fear of breaking plan b.

If you haven't talked with them yet, I'm wondering if your WH is using this as a "see I'm not so bad, LS hasn't even called them" type of thing. What type of justification is he getting out of it.

It may not even matter, but I thought I would point it out.

Could you call your bil's and ask to speak with the kids or ask for them to call you back. That way you aren't contacting your WS to speak to them. Of course, you run the risk of him answering his brother's phone.

Actually, I was responding to Sis's description of her WH's "entire life". My own WH did not do this until I confronted him about his actions with the women he worked with and that was not until we had been married for over 15 years.


Well, that's true. So what is the point of responding to anyone who posts here?


I post very infrequently now - I am hardly "everywhere". It's just that when I do post, yeah, it's usually to talk about P/A stuff when I think that's what I am seeing. It's not even close to "everywhere".


Better than it was, thank you. A whole lot better than it was.
Mulan

My apologies Mulan