I know that she has hurt from it, but I know that I am not the real reason for her low self esteem. She knows that I think the world of her, in fact she has always told me that I should not put her up on this pedestal that I have. She has issues like her father disowning her for no reason and our son dying. She is also very petite in stature and had to go through a childhood of being made fun of and always having to try and fit in.
All of that are probably contributing factors. The bottom line is that it was inevitably her choice to do it and we should all be responsible for our choices. I was and I know that she is.
Well, I was having a down night and wanted a little comfort. I got some but now this is turning into me defending myself. This is not what I wanted.
Thank you all for your help tonight.
Rock <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You have not given a valid reason for an A on either part.

Instead you have listed challenges you 2 s/b facing together.

So if she isn't willing to work with you, are you willing to work on you? If so would you like to start off with a personal recovery plan?

Btw, her being short is no biggie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ..... I'm short but I didn't have an A.

L.

I am recovered.

Judging by your post times Rock - you need some sleep my man.

Sorry I was not around last night to give you a SUSHD.

This crap takes LOTS of time. Your in it for the long run and yes there will be down days. I still have them and my FWW has been great to me as of late.

Hang in there Rock.

Thanks man. Yes, I needed my SUSHD last night. Just a bad time. I got through it though.
Glad to hear that things have been going great with you and FWW. I have to say that actually my W (don't know when I can officially use the term FWW) has been doing very good.
The thing that is bothering me the most is when I can actually try to talk to her about certain things. I am scared to rock the boat. In time I suppose.
Thanks for checking in.
Rock

Ya Know Rock,

There are some things you seem to be missing. When you look at your past you see failure. When you look at the present you see failure. Not surprising you are not really looking at the future but what you will see is failure. Why? Because if all the past means to you is failure and all you see of your present situation is failure, then the future is foretold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I look at your past and see something else.

I see a man that failed his W big time, but worked to make right what he had done wrong.

I see a man with a conscience and compassion.

I see a man and a W that survived the loss of their son. Do you know how many marriages are destroyed by the loss of a child? It is huge. You two stayed together and made the marriage work, and loved each other through it.

I see a man get the worst news (perhaps short of losing a child) a man or woman can get, their spouse has had several affairs, and still have the compassion and love to try and salvage the marriage.

I see a W who has failed her H terribly, trying in her own way to save this marriage and her family.

In short I don't see failure at all. Failure is when something goes wrong and it pins you to the mat and you never get up.

Rock, you fear of rocking the boat is not well founded. She may get mad if you bring things up, but that is NOT rocking the boat. Your W either wants to stay in this marriage or she does not. I think she does. She thinks the best way to heal and heal this marriage is to avoid the topic of adultery. I know she is wrong, you know she is wrong, and I suspect even she may have doubts. I am also betting she did NOT avoid talking to you about what was bothering her when you had your affair, right?

You are missing something very very important about the information on this site. This site ENCOURAGES couples to talk about very difficult subjects. It shows you how to do this without destroying the marriage (avoid love busters when talking about things, especially Disrespectful judgements, and angry outbursts). You are NOT using the tools here yet.

If you need to speak with your W about these things, then speak to her. If you need her input and guidance and yes you will need her guidance in things, then ask for it, talk about it, and reach a mutual agreement about it.

You two have NOT POJA'd not talking about the affairs. You two have not POJA'd how the future should look. You two have not POJA'd a plan to recover this marriage. It won't go all your way, but negotiating a win-win situation usually means you don't get everything you want, but you do get everything you need.

You need to sit down and figure out what you need from your W and then explain to here what it is. THEN, you two negotiate how you attain these needs. The same goes for her.

Rock, I know you are hurt, but you are squandering your strength and abilities. Focus on what you really need from her. Tell her. But, know this as well. She cannot heal you. She cannot take back what she did. She cannot make you forget these things, and frankly you don't want to forget. But, she can help guide you. She can become your future and your future can be great IF you plan for it and work together.

I believe if you look back you will recognize the truth of what I just said, because you lived it from the other side. You worked to recover the marriage after your affair, but she had to heal on her own, and in her time. What you could and did do however was do your best to make the future a good one for her.

Time to muscle up Rock. Time to start to face that you have to do the heavy lifting in your own healing. And time to quit fearing "rocking the boat" and get this marriage started toward a future you both want.

I will leave you with this very astute observation made by someone I have forgotten long ago.

A child NEEDS what the WANT, an adult WANTS what they NEED.

Figure out what you need.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks a ton JL. I need to hear those things. I just need a little bit of time to absorb what you just said. I am tired of my past and I want to leave it behind me. Although many judge me for what I did, I know how wrong I was and I will always have to live with it. I just know that I am not the person that did that.
I know that losing a child is a huge marriage buster and we have survived that. We have survived financial ruin and bankruptcy together. I do not want to let this ruin my marriage either, though to me it's been the biggest threat that I have to overcome.'I remember when my wife had a misscarriage not too long ago, we both said "What else can happen"? Little did I know that it would be her breaking her vows.
Anyway, I will not give up. Life keeps knocking me down but I will keep getting back up. It's nice to have people like you helping me up now and then.
What is the saying? You haven't lost when you've been knocked down, you've lost when you quiy getting up.
Or something like that. Thanks for the great words of wisdom JL. I appreciate you taking the time to help.
Rock

Rock,

Did you say Mrs. Rock had a miscarriage not long ago? Was it before her A's? If so, I really think you need to talk to her about getting into counseling. Even if it was after her A's she probably needs some help.

Over the years on this site I have learned a few things, and one of them is that women who have miscarriages often have problems as a result that us guys just don't get. I never realized this as it has never been part of my life and being a guy I would have a different response anyway.

I sit here and think, she had a miscarriage, you two lost a son, you had an affair, and now she has had 3 affairs. Do you see any links? I do.

Please consider talking to her about this and seeing if you can obtain some counseling for her, and you for that matter. You two have lost some very precious things in your marriage. Don't you think it is time to really recover from them? I do.

Seek really good counseling will you?

God Bless,

JL

From what I remember the miscarriage happened either before OM1 or between OM1 and OM2. It's all a jumbled mess to me now. Again, I looked at it as something that would have pulled us closer, but I guess not.

Rock - I'm sorry you are feeling down. Listen to JL - he is giving you wonderful advice.

Also see if you can find a book called "The Grief Handbook". It talks about grieving and recovery and is EXCELLENT. Lots of your marriage problems may be due to unresolved grief. Sometimes women are hit differently by the loss of a child and a miscarriage. As soon as we realize we are carrying a child, we start planning a future and dreaming, talking to the child, bonding.

Thanks, I'll look for the book. I know that as far as the loss of a child that we both deal with it differently. (men & women)

Oh Rock,

Losing a child is dealt with even more differently than just divided by men and women. But, one thing is clear...the data. The data is that losing a child often destroys a marriage so while it may be dealt with differently, the commonality is that it is a very very deep wound to all concerned.

Do what Believer has suggested. But, also seek out some counselors that are pro-marriage and that have experience handling people with the sort of loses you two have had. This is really important I think.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thank you for all of your wonderful wisdom. MRR sent me the one post of yours and it just has so much meaning in it. Thank you so much.

I have been through a lot of counseling. After the birth of our first daughter I developed PPD. I was sent to a wonderful counselor. She had experienced the same thing. During our sessons I had mentioned my concerns to her about MRR rock and OW. So when I did find out about the A she was the first one I called. She was wonderful through that. MRR also went to see her. So a few years go by and we have our son. His heart defect was called Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrom. We were told that we had 3 options. There was a 3 part surgery that re routes the heart so that the right side does everything; hold out for a transplant; or just let him die. Think about being told that just after having a c-section and only having him with you for 48 hours almost. We chose the surgery. We had to give him every chance we could. So he was taken to U of M and we followed. He had the surgery made it through it. But the next morning he crashed and we lost him. New Years eve 1997. Again I called my counselor. Come to find out she had lost a child too.

Fast forward to now. I have been back to see her here and there for the past several years. But now she is no longer seeing patients. I did go to someone that she recommended, but I never did mesh with her. Right now I just don't feel like reliving everything with a new person. Our son's death still weighs heavy on me. There are times when I just want to go and be with him, but that is not realistic. Yes, I do still have a lot of hurt in me for various reasons. My father included, I will never understand that one.

But for now, my main focus is helping MRR and our marriage. He does not know if he can call me a FWW yet, but as far as I am concerned I am a FWW. The thought of all the things that I did just makes me sick. I am not the person who did those things, I don't know who she is. But I know she is gone.

I hope I have not bored you. But thank you again for your wonderful advise and support for my BS.

Mrs. Rock

Nope - anytime someone wants to unload these feelings I will always listen. Nothing to say, but I'm listening.

((Mrs.Rock))

This is good, let's go with this.

Mrs Rock,

I am glad that reading here and posting here is helping you. You know sometimes I read your (Mr.R and Mrs. R) posts and I want to come visit you and bang your heads together. And then I just want to grab you two and hold you together.

But, let me tell you what I see as an outsider. I see two people that have been through a lot. I see two people who have hurt each other alot. I see two people that clearly love each other alot. And I see something that perhaps you don't see Mrs. Rock.

You will join your son in the bye and bye, but now is NOT the time. The child you lost to a miscarriage you will join in the bye and bye, now is not the time. What the time is for is to cherish the memories, to create in your other children the family they would have loved to have. You and Mr. Rock are the custodians of many memories, many lessons learned, and a deep attachments. It is your job to show your children and each other what forgiving, learning, and growing is about.

Mrs. Rock I believe you when you say you are not that woman. Frankly, the problem Mr. Rock has is that he did not know that woman either. But, he is not certain where she went and how you got back. He is afraid to rock the boat and really talk to you as he needs to. You are afraid to revisit those times because you fear it will hurt him and make even sorrier than you are right now.

Here is where I would like to do a little head banging. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You are fearing the wrong things. You should fear not exploring all of this and learning from it. You should fear that he doesn't heal. He should fear that you don't heal. You should fear looking back in a few years and not having you BOTH healed and happy.

I realize as a parent that the natural order of things is that our children carry forward memories of us and what they learned from us. It is our way of obtaining immortality or at least a longer life span than we live. In your case it is your job to carry forward the memories and lessons learned from some of your children. It is not the way it should be, but it is the way it is.

You two need to really talk, about your fears, about your worries, about your hopes, about your plans for a happy and good marriage, about many things, and mostly about lessons learned. But, mostly you two need to talk about being a team that brings out the best in each other. What can you do to bring out the best in Mr. Rock? What can Mr. Rock do to bring out the best in you.

I know you see many good and great things in one another, what is it going to take to bring them out.

If you read anything on this site read the following articles. One is about "radical honesty" which is not to be confused with "Brutal honesty". The next is about the policy of joint agreement, POJA, which is really just negotiating win-win situations. And then read about Harley's four rules for a good marriage.

Once you read them, then the concepts of needs, love banks, and others will make a lot of sense, if they don't already.

Isn't about time you two pulled down the defenses and realized that you are actually married to the one person who has shared so much with you, and clearly loves you?

Think about it, and really consider some good counseling. It never hurts to have a third party to play intermediary when misunderstandings arise.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Wow, thanks JL. Very powerful. Thank you so much.

You got that right JL. I know that this all requires us talking. I just wish that I knew at what point she realized or came to the conclusion that it was an awful thing that she did. I know it wasn't D-day because she called him a few times after that. I don't know. It's confusing to know that she was this person that could do this and then all of a sudden this person is gone. I am sure glad though.
I know, I know, it all comes down to us talking about things.
Thanks again for your help.

Yup, Rock,

It is all about talking. Just remember it took her awhile to heal after your affair, it will take you awhile as well. You must have patience with yourself.

Oh, and I am betting she wondered where you went and who took your place when you had your A.

Have you ever read WAT's theory of alien abduction?? We had a lot of fun with it for many years on this site. The claim is that the WS got beamed up to the "mothership" and was replaced by an alien. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In the end, the aliens beam down the original spouse who remembers...little <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Actually, there is an element to this that rings true. You and Mrs. Rock just have to go slow but go with GRACE. If there is one word that represents recovery in my mind it is GRACE. It takes GRACE to admit ones failures and learn from them, and it takes great GRACE to accept that the WS is truly sorry and needs a second chance.

Don't let the calls bother you after d-day. These things rarely seem to end cleanly but they do end has her's has and many others.

Hang in there. And tell Mrs. Rock we're thinking of her.

God Bless,

JL

Heck, it seems I have learned so much already from just reading her posts than I have from living with her since D-day. That's how bad our communication skills are. Lol.