I'm having a bad night. I feel like such a loser. Why can't I have a wife that stayed faithful? Why did these three guys choose to go after my wife? Why did she allow herself to stoop down to the level of these scumbags.
Why doesn't being married mean anything to some people? All three of these idiots KNEW she was married with children. Why was I cast aside like a piece of garbage.
I am so sick of being such a loser and having terrible things happen to me. I so envy faithful husbands and wives. Sorry I am being pitiful and feeling sorry for myself tonight. Thanks for listening.
Rock <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Rock,

There is hope. You're not a loser but the enemy knows that if he can convince you that you are, he wins.

Please keep going towards hope....it is out there...you're not alone.

Ace

First, STOP IT! SWACK! This is the endurance race of a lifetime. I do not know your story, but we all have felt like this.

Why did all of the above happen? Not because you are a loser, or unworthy of happiness. It is HER. HER HER HER HER HER HER HER HER HER HER HER HER....

Marriage means a lot to MANY people, heck, WE'RE all over these boards! Look at all of the people here working to better themselves, become self-aware, learn to love themselves and become stronger, learn to communicate and be open and honest. Learn to drop the LB's and DJ's. We're all here, valuing M.

Those OM are big ole POS!

You are not like garbage in any way, shape or form. You are DEEPLY wounded. These feelings that you have will be remedied with a rebuild in self-esteem and courage in the face of fear. I understand the envy.

Rock, I'm returning to Plan B for the SECOND time. This journey is tough, and with everyday will come more challenges, HOWEVER, with everyday comes the chance to renew, to learn and to grow. It's not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth.

What's going on that you are having such a bad day?

rock - as a FWW, reading your post brought tears to my eyes. This must be how my H feels at times ... I don't remember your story, but I hope and pray that your wife sees this post and does something to comfort you. If not, at least you have MB on your team, cheering you on through this difficult journey.

BTW, ((((((((ROCK))))))))

I thought you could use that after my post...

Thanks guys. I have always had a low self esteem as it was. Then this. I feel so blind sided. I'm sorry to cry when I know that most people here are in much worse situations. I wonder if she even knows how much she has hurt me. I have had a child die. A child die!! And this hurts worse! I feel so bad for saying that.
I would have taken being hit by a bus than to go through this.
I don't know why I am down today. I guess just a dip in the roller coaster.
Thanks for your support.

Thank you time_for_change. It's nice to hear from a FWW. I wish I could tell you my whole story but it's kinda long.

Rock, most people here are in the SAME situation as you. We are here to care and support you, especially in these dark hours.

When my mother died, I thought the pain was the worst. I didn't know then, that when a M dies, it's much worse, because there is no finality to it, not even upon D. Even in recovery, the M that you had is lost. The innocence of NOT KNOWING is lost. The reminders of the betrayal lay within you forever, and you must learn to live with them, to rise above them, and to learn from them. This is no place for sissies, so don't look down upon yourself. It takes sheer will and strength to perservere another day. You have tremendous strength. Keep learning, better yourself, FOR YOURSELF.

I'm so sorry to hear about he death of your child, my condolensces to you.

Giving a synopsis of events can be helpful to those of us who do not know your story. Keep posting and filling us in.

I think I've been pretty strong. It's just a down night for me. My story as brief as I can keep it: I met my wife in high school, went steady for seven years and got married. After 5 years of what I thought was a happy marriage, I had an A. I deeply regret it. Fast forward twelve years and my wife had 3 in the span in about a year. An EA with a coworker, a EA with a guy in a gym that we joined, then a PA with a aquantice at work. That's my story in a very little nutshell.
I never thought that she had it in her to do this with me. Or why, in her own words, she was "looking for an affair.

I envy your husband because you are here and trying to help your marriage. It's actually comforting to see WS here working on their M. It's encouraging.

I keep trying to sort things out. I still love her. Divorcing her isn't going to take any of the pain away. We have 2 beautiful daughters who I do not want to hurt. My wife seems to want to stay together.
So that leaves it all up to me to just "deal" with all this crap.
So that is what I will do.

Hang on, Rock! SL is right, this is an endurance race, a marathon.

Be a rock for your WW. Vent her like you are doing.

I am sorry for the loss of your child. I cannot image what that must be like and then to have this also in your life.

Praying for you.....

I'm sorry I brought up my son. He was born with a heart defect and only lived 5 days. This was about 10 years ago. My wife has a very hard time dealing with that loss. I just brought it up to compare the pain that I feel between his death and my wife's affairs.
Maybe it was disrespectful to even bring it up and compare.

and thank you for the prayer.

(((Rock)))

Sorry you are having a rough night. They do come and go... times like this that only thing I can think of is to give you a big (((hug)))

I hope tomorrow is a better day.

Still

No, it was not disrespectful to bring it up. It was painful for you, probably your barometer for pain until the A. Don't disrespect yourself by minimizing it.

I thought cutting off my parents from our lives was one of the most painful things I have been through - but it also pales in comparison to this experience.

I am struggling a little tonight as well - just burst into tears earlier for no apparent reason. I understand how real this pain is.

Need some more words of wisdom? Check out these "Coleisms," great quotes from Ed Cole on men - http://www.edcolelibrary.com/coleism/view_all

Also, maybe some of these songs in my song thread will lift you up in this dark time - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=all&vc=1

Sorry you are having a rough night too. As far as crying goes, I can cry now at the drop of a hat. I guess I really was Mr. Rock, but now my emotions are so hard to keep inside of me. Heck, I even get teary eyed at certain TV shows, movies or songs.

I keep thinking of these POS OM. Gee they sure were some respectable guys. Real men of character they were. What possibly could a loser who would go after a married woman with two children have that would make them so desireable? What a catch they must be. WHy give yourself to someone who just wants to get in your pants? How could she think so lowly of herself?

Rock,
Did i read correctly? Did you say you had an A on your wife?
If so, then that, my dear, is your reason. You may have gotten over it, but it looks like your W has been carrying a low self esteem and alot of hurt from it.
I know, i'm a BS, and i feel like i'm worthless now, i feel like i could run away with anyone who paid me special attention. In my weak moments i daydream of someone rescuing me from my M. I love my H but this pain is unbearable. I don't know how to heal, he doesn't know how to help me. Nothing is enough to make this better. I'm a mess inside. I'm lonely, i'm broken, i'm vulnerable.

Sigh, here we go. Yes I am a FWH. It happened 12 years ago and I was very remorseful. I had NC with OW, it was exposed, we went to MC and I did everything I could to help her. If anything, I think that she got over it better than I did. Even in my most recent IC, I have been told that I have to forgive myself because it is obvious that I am racked with guilt. She even told me that this was not a revenge affair and that she should have known better because all we had been through.
So I hope that you are not one of those types that chased me off of other boards telling me that "I got what I deserved, blah, blah, blah,".
I'm sorry if I seem a little harsh. It's just a sensitive subject to me. I didn't have to tell anyone here that I am a FWH. I feel that I have served my time. I was man enough to stand up and throw myself to the mercy of my wife, stand beside her and do everything in my power to make things up to her.
If you were to read some of my other posts you would see that a lot of people here have thought that I have been to easy on her. This is because I know what it's like to be a WS and I do have a little sympathy for her being in her situation.
I hope the best for you and I hope that you never do run off with anyone who pays attention to you. It isn't worth it. Sorry if I came across the wrong way. It's been a rough night and I'm tired.
Rock

I know that she has hurt from it, but I know that I am not the real reason for her low self esteem. She knows that I think the world of her, in fact she has always told me that I should not put her up on this pedestal that I have. She has issues like her father disowning her for no reason and our son dying. She is also very petite in stature and had to go through a childhood of being made fun of and always having to try and fit in.
All of that are probably contributing factors. The bottom line is that it was inevitably her choice to do it and we should all be responsible for our choices. I was and I know that she is.
Well, I was having a down night and wanted a little comfort. I got some but now this is turning into me defending myself. This is not what I wanted.
Thank you all for your help tonight.
Rock <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You have not given a valid reason for an A on either part.

Instead you have listed challenges you 2 s/b facing together.

So if she isn't willing to work with you, are you willing to work on you? If so would you like to start off with a personal recovery plan?

Btw, her being short is no biggie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ..... I'm short but I didn't have an A.

L.

I am recovered.

Judging by your post times Rock - you need some sleep my man.

Sorry I was not around last night to give you a SUSHD.

This crap takes LOTS of time. Your in it for the long run and yes there will be down days. I still have them and my FWW has been great to me as of late.

Hang in there Rock.

Thanks man. Yes, I needed my SUSHD last night. Just a bad time. I got through it though.
Glad to hear that things have been going great with you and FWW. I have to say that actually my W (don't know when I can officially use the term FWW) has been doing very good.
The thing that is bothering me the most is when I can actually try to talk to her about certain things. I am scared to rock the boat. In time I suppose.
Thanks for checking in.
Rock

Ya Know Rock,

There are some things you seem to be missing. When you look at your past you see failure. When you look at the present you see failure. Not surprising you are not really looking at the future but what you will see is failure. Why? Because if all the past means to you is failure and all you see of your present situation is failure, then the future is foretold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I look at your past and see something else.

I see a man that failed his W big time, but worked to make right what he had done wrong.

I see a man with a conscience and compassion.

I see a man and a W that survived the loss of their son. Do you know how many marriages are destroyed by the loss of a child? It is huge. You two stayed together and made the marriage work, and loved each other through it.

I see a man get the worst news (perhaps short of losing a child) a man or woman can get, their spouse has had several affairs, and still have the compassion and love to try and salvage the marriage.

I see a W who has failed her H terribly, trying in her own way to save this marriage and her family.

In short I don't see failure at all. Failure is when something goes wrong and it pins you to the mat and you never get up.

Rock, you fear of rocking the boat is not well founded. She may get mad if you bring things up, but that is NOT rocking the boat. Your W either wants to stay in this marriage or she does not. I think she does. She thinks the best way to heal and heal this marriage is to avoid the topic of adultery. I know she is wrong, you know she is wrong, and I suspect even she may have doubts. I am also betting she did NOT avoid talking to you about what was bothering her when you had your affair, right?

You are missing something very very important about the information on this site. This site ENCOURAGES couples to talk about very difficult subjects. It shows you how to do this without destroying the marriage (avoid love busters when talking about things, especially Disrespectful judgements, and angry outbursts). You are NOT using the tools here yet.

If you need to speak with your W about these things, then speak to her. If you need her input and guidance and yes you will need her guidance in things, then ask for it, talk about it, and reach a mutual agreement about it.

You two have NOT POJA'd not talking about the affairs. You two have not POJA'd how the future should look. You two have not POJA'd a plan to recover this marriage. It won't go all your way, but negotiating a win-win situation usually means you don't get everything you want, but you do get everything you need.

You need to sit down and figure out what you need from your W and then explain to here what it is. THEN, you two negotiate how you attain these needs. The same goes for her.

Rock, I know you are hurt, but you are squandering your strength and abilities. Focus on what you really need from her. Tell her. But, know this as well. She cannot heal you. She cannot take back what she did. She cannot make you forget these things, and frankly you don't want to forget. But, she can help guide you. She can become your future and your future can be great IF you plan for it and work together.

I believe if you look back you will recognize the truth of what I just said, because you lived it from the other side. You worked to recover the marriage after your affair, but she had to heal on her own, and in her time. What you could and did do however was do your best to make the future a good one for her.

Time to muscle up Rock. Time to start to face that you have to do the heavy lifting in your own healing. And time to quit fearing "rocking the boat" and get this marriage started toward a future you both want.

I will leave you with this very astute observation made by someone I have forgotten long ago.

A child NEEDS what the WANT, an adult WANTS what they NEED.

Figure out what you need.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks a ton JL. I need to hear those things. I just need a little bit of time to absorb what you just said. I am tired of my past and I want to leave it behind me. Although many judge me for what I did, I know how wrong I was and I will always have to live with it. I just know that I am not the person that did that.
I know that losing a child is a huge marriage buster and we have survived that. We have survived financial ruin and bankruptcy together. I do not want to let this ruin my marriage either, though to me it's been the biggest threat that I have to overcome.'I remember when my wife had a misscarriage not too long ago, we both said "What else can happen"? Little did I know that it would be her breaking her vows.
Anyway, I will not give up. Life keeps knocking me down but I will keep getting back up. It's nice to have people like you helping me up now and then.
What is the saying? You haven't lost when you've been knocked down, you've lost when you quiy getting up.
Or something like that. Thanks for the great words of wisdom JL. I appreciate you taking the time to help.
Rock

Rock,

Did you say Mrs. Rock had a miscarriage not long ago? Was it before her A's? If so, I really think you need to talk to her about getting into counseling. Even if it was after her A's she probably needs some help.

Over the years on this site I have learned a few things, and one of them is that women who have miscarriages often have problems as a result that us guys just don't get. I never realized this as it has never been part of my life and being a guy I would have a different response anyway.

I sit here and think, she had a miscarriage, you two lost a son, you had an affair, and now she has had 3 affairs. Do you see any links? I do.

Please consider talking to her about this and seeing if you can obtain some counseling for her, and you for that matter. You two have lost some very precious things in your marriage. Don't you think it is time to really recover from them? I do.

Seek really good counseling will you?

God Bless,

JL

From what I remember the miscarriage happened either before OM1 or between OM1 and OM2. It's all a jumbled mess to me now. Again, I looked at it as something that would have pulled us closer, but I guess not.

Rock - I'm sorry you are feeling down. Listen to JL - he is giving you wonderful advice.

Also see if you can find a book called "The Grief Handbook". It talks about grieving and recovery and is EXCELLENT. Lots of your marriage problems may be due to unresolved grief. Sometimes women are hit differently by the loss of a child and a miscarriage. As soon as we realize we are carrying a child, we start planning a future and dreaming, talking to the child, bonding.

Thanks, I'll look for the book. I know that as far as the loss of a child that we both deal with it differently. (men & women)

Oh Rock,

Losing a child is dealt with even more differently than just divided by men and women. But, one thing is clear...the data. The data is that losing a child often destroys a marriage so while it may be dealt with differently, the commonality is that it is a very very deep wound to all concerned.

Do what Believer has suggested. But, also seek out some counselors that are pro-marriage and that have experience handling people with the sort of loses you two have had. This is really important I think.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thank you for all of your wonderful wisdom. MRR sent me the one post of yours and it just has so much meaning in it. Thank you so much.

I have been through a lot of counseling. After the birth of our first daughter I developed PPD. I was sent to a wonderful counselor. She had experienced the same thing. During our sessons I had mentioned my concerns to her about MRR rock and OW. So when I did find out about the A she was the first one I called. She was wonderful through that. MRR also went to see her. So a few years go by and we have our son. His heart defect was called Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrom. We were told that we had 3 options. There was a 3 part surgery that re routes the heart so that the right side does everything; hold out for a transplant; or just let him die. Think about being told that just after having a c-section and only having him with you for 48 hours almost. We chose the surgery. We had to give him every chance we could. So he was taken to U of M and we followed. He had the surgery made it through it. But the next morning he crashed and we lost him. New Years eve 1997. Again I called my counselor. Come to find out she had lost a child too.

Fast forward to now. I have been back to see her here and there for the past several years. But now she is no longer seeing patients. I did go to someone that she recommended, but I never did mesh with her. Right now I just don't feel like reliving everything with a new person. Our son's death still weighs heavy on me. There are times when I just want to go and be with him, but that is not realistic. Yes, I do still have a lot of hurt in me for various reasons. My father included, I will never understand that one.

But for now, my main focus is helping MRR and our marriage. He does not know if he can call me a FWW yet, but as far as I am concerned I am a FWW. The thought of all the things that I did just makes me sick. I am not the person who did those things, I don't know who she is. But I know she is gone.

I hope I have not bored you. But thank you again for your wonderful advise and support for my BS.

Mrs. Rock

Nope - anytime someone wants to unload these feelings I will always listen. Nothing to say, but I'm listening.

((Mrs.Rock))

This is good, let's go with this.

Mrs Rock,

I am glad that reading here and posting here is helping you. You know sometimes I read your (Mr.R and Mrs. R) posts and I want to come visit you and bang your heads together. And then I just want to grab you two and hold you together.

But, let me tell you what I see as an outsider. I see two people that have been through a lot. I see two people who have hurt each other alot. I see two people that clearly love each other alot. And I see something that perhaps you don't see Mrs. Rock.

You will join your son in the bye and bye, but now is NOT the time. The child you lost to a miscarriage you will join in the bye and bye, now is not the time. What the time is for is to cherish the memories, to create in your other children the family they would have loved to have. You and Mr. Rock are the custodians of many memories, many lessons learned, and a deep attachments. It is your job to show your children and each other what forgiving, learning, and growing is about.

Mrs. Rock I believe you when you say you are not that woman. Frankly, the problem Mr. Rock has is that he did not know that woman either. But, he is not certain where she went and how you got back. He is afraid to rock the boat and really talk to you as he needs to. You are afraid to revisit those times because you fear it will hurt him and make even sorrier than you are right now.

Here is where I would like to do a little head banging. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You are fearing the wrong things. You should fear not exploring all of this and learning from it. You should fear that he doesn't heal. He should fear that you don't heal. You should fear looking back in a few years and not having you BOTH healed and happy.

I realize as a parent that the natural order of things is that our children carry forward memories of us and what they learned from us. It is our way of obtaining immortality or at least a longer life span than we live. In your case it is your job to carry forward the memories and lessons learned from some of your children. It is not the way it should be, but it is the way it is.

You two need to really talk, about your fears, about your worries, about your hopes, about your plans for a happy and good marriage, about many things, and mostly about lessons learned. But, mostly you two need to talk about being a team that brings out the best in each other. What can you do to bring out the best in Mr. Rock? What can Mr. Rock do to bring out the best in you.

I know you see many good and great things in one another, what is it going to take to bring them out.

If you read anything on this site read the following articles. One is about "radical honesty" which is not to be confused with "Brutal honesty". The next is about the policy of joint agreement, POJA, which is really just negotiating win-win situations. And then read about Harley's four rules for a good marriage.

Once you read them, then the concepts of needs, love banks, and others will make a lot of sense, if they don't already.

Isn't about time you two pulled down the defenses and realized that you are actually married to the one person who has shared so much with you, and clearly loves you?

Think about it, and really consider some good counseling. It never hurts to have a third party to play intermediary when misunderstandings arise.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Wow, thanks JL. Very powerful. Thank you so much.

You got that right JL. I know that this all requires us talking. I just wish that I knew at what point she realized or came to the conclusion that it was an awful thing that she did. I know it wasn't D-day because she called him a few times after that. I don't know. It's confusing to know that she was this person that could do this and then all of a sudden this person is gone. I am sure glad though.
I know, I know, it all comes down to us talking about things.
Thanks again for your help.

Yup, Rock,

It is all about talking. Just remember it took her awhile to heal after your affair, it will take you awhile as well. You must have patience with yourself.

Oh, and I am betting she wondered where you went and who took your place when you had your A.

Have you ever read WAT's theory of alien abduction?? We had a lot of fun with it for many years on this site. The claim is that the WS got beamed up to the "mothership" and was replaced by an alien. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In the end, the aliens beam down the original spouse who remembers...little <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Actually, there is an element to this that rings true. You and Mrs. Rock just have to go slow but go with GRACE. If there is one word that represents recovery in my mind it is GRACE. It takes GRACE to admit ones failures and learn from them, and it takes great GRACE to accept that the WS is truly sorry and needs a second chance.

Don't let the calls bother you after d-day. These things rarely seem to end cleanly but they do end has her's has and many others.

Hang in there. And tell Mrs. Rock we're thinking of her.

God Bless,

JL

Heck, it seems I have learned so much already from just reading her posts than I have from living with her since D-day. That's how bad our communication skills are. Lol.

glad to see that you are felling better than the other night now.

Keep on keeping on.

I am. Thanks Eph!

Rock,

You said
Ok Rock, time to hit you with the hammer. Look at what I quoted and think. Does that statement give you some ideas? It says a few things to me. It says that on intimate or painful things, it might be better to email, write, or post here to truly communicate. Often people that have trouble "voicing" intimate or painful, personal things can do so in writing because they can pick and choose the words they really need to say what they really need.

Something else for you to "talk" with Mrs. Rock about. Frankly, my W is very much like this. She can and does write the most touching letters and cards, but in face to face, she just does not say the things she says in writing. She can be a shy one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Perhaps Mrs. Rock is like this as well.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Don't you just hate it when a stereotype is challenged. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Women are supposed to be the ones that like and are very verbal about their feelings. Right?

I actually am much better at writing my thoughts and feelings than I am at saying them. I once thought of discussing a lot of things with her through letters and emails because I thought that maybe it would be easier for her to talk and/or answer some of my questions without having the embaressment of having to look me in the eye. I don't know. I know though that she doesn't like to write as much as I do. We will see. Man, I gotta start getting some sleep!

You're both an inspiration to me. You've overcome so much and, although (like us all), you still have a ways to go, you're reaching out for help, baring your souls, and fighting for your marriage against numerous challenges (double A's, loss of a child, family dysfunction).....thanks for sharing.

We're rooting for you, learning from your struggles and praying for you, too.

Ace

SUSHD - just in case you need it today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thank you sir, may I have another!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Yeah - you're doing much better than the other night - good to see it.

Here's a question. Now and then I have been posting in what I call an "anger" journal. Do you think that it is something that I should have or let her read?
Just wondering.
Rock

If it helps any, rock we went through the same thing. My wife had 3 As in the past two years that practically destroyed me. It hurts like ****** that this is forever going to be part of our history now. I've often had the same feelings of worthlessness and low self esteem. I so desparately wanted to improve things and to keep our kids happy but she kept straying. At the end of the day her choices are hers. I don't have any "magic bullet" advice but I have learned you have to stop thinking in negative ways about yourself. A person can cheat even if you are the most wonderful spouse in the world.

We've been in recovery with no contact for 4 months now and things are going better than ever in the past several years but I still have to constantly turn my mental attention away from reminders, negative feelings, anger, etc. If I really think objectively though I'm doing a lot better than I was a while ago. The improvements come gradually so you don't actually realize them. Marriage builders is working for us and some days I just stick to the program even though I really don't feel like it.

I also started writing things down but I don't think you should just share that stuff un-filtered with your wife. Don't drag each other down needlessly. Maybe I'm wrong about this though, you should discuss it with your counsellor.

Thanks for sharing NG. I'm sorry that you had to deal with pretty much the same thing that I am dealing with now. I am glad though that you are farther along than me and showed me that there is hope.
As far as my notes go. This goes back to my last discussion with JL about how me and my FWW have a hard time talking and maybe it might be easier for me to express my feelings to her by writing some. I don't know.
Thanks for your time and I hope the best for you!

This is my little nugget of comfort. I read it many times throughout the day and cling to it.

RB,

Someone here on MB had a hard time talking...and what they POJA'd, as a temporary way to communicate, was to have one notebook...and she would take it in the morning to work...write in it to him...and then hand it off to him at night, I think...and he would write in it...left time and space and it was what they used to get to where they could talk to each other about their own stuff...and be safe to share.

Hope this helps.

(And no...anger journals are for you, about you...they are great to see, know and trace your anger...later on, she can burn it with you...when you no longer need it...not something to share.)

LA

Post deleted by rockbottom06

Post deleted by rockbottom06

Hello Mr. and Mrs. Rock,

I came across this thread just now and have been very touched by it.

I hope Mrs. R will continue to post and you both heal.

I'm a FWW and I just realized I have 2 dd's a year younger than each of yours - oldest one has a genetic disorder, we almost lost her and DH and I have been married the same length of time as you.

Mrs. R can email me too if she would like, it's on my profile.

Mom

Thank you so much for posting. It's amazing how similar your kids and all the ages are.
I encourage my wife to post here often. I would love if she could talk to you. I love hearing from other FWWs.
I read your story and I wish the best for you and your H.
Keep in touch and thank you for posting here!
Rock

Member


Reged: 06/20/06
Posts: 265
Loc: Texas Re: Taking responsibility for A on both WS & BS part? [Re: lilmom]
#3204439 - 03/16/07 10:06 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



lilmom, wounded (damaged/broken) is the best way I can describe it.

I'm not sure why but reading today's posts makes me feel like warmed over sh*t today. Sometimes I read through threads and see the vehemence, anger and bitterness aimed at waywards and I hate that I'm in that category. I've taken it all in, knowing I and other waywards deserve every bit of it. Yeah, so I'm "reformed" does that put my back into my prior-A category. No, I'm still a rung or two lower than the rest of the faithful.

I did not start out life as a morally bankrupt person. I didn't get married as a morally bankrupt person. Most of my life, save those few months I was wayward, I had very high moral standards. I might as well have been a psycopathic adulterer from day one for all the good it did me. Because that's how so many will view and define us always.

WW, FWW...whatever, I might as well wear a scarlet letter.
Why does it feel like the sum total of who I am can be defined by the period of time I was a WW. Discounting the years and years prior that I "thought" I was basically a decent person. The worst thing I've ever done is all of what defines me. I hate it. I think, what if people around me knew, they just think I'm so perfect but I'm just a fake!

sorry for the vent...

--------------------
FWW - 38 (me) (2 LD EA's, Jan-May '06)
BH - 40 (him)
Dday - May 22, 2006
DD's 11 & 4
M 17 yrs
recovered, grateful, immense respect for my DH
my history: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

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rockbottom06
Member


Reged: 12/05/06
Posts: 263
Loc: Michigan Re: Taking responsibility for A on both WS & BS part? [Re: MomtoAandZ]
#3204451 - 03/16/07 10:13 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




Quote:
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lilmom, wounded (damaged/broken) is the best way I can describe it.

I'm not sure why but reading today's posts makes me feel like warmed over sh*t today. Sometimes I read through threads and see the vehemence, anger and bitterness aimed at waywards and I hate that I'm in that category. I've taken it all in, knowing I and other waywards deserve every bit of it. Yeah, so I'm "reformed" does that put my back into my prior-A category. No, I'm still a rung or two lower than the rest of the faithful.

I did not start out life as a morally bankrupt person. I didn't get married as a morally bankrupt person. Most of my life, save those few months I was wayward, I had very high moral standards. I might as well have been a psycopathic adulterer from day one for all the good it did me. Because that's how so many will view and define us always.

WW, FWW...whatever, I might as well wear a scarlet letter.
Why does it feel like the sum total of who I am can be defined by the period of time I was a WW. Discounting the years and years prior that I "thought" I was basically a decent person. The worst thing I've ever done is all of what defines me. I hate it. I think, what if people around me knew, they just think I'm so perfect but I'm just a fake!

sorry for the vent...


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I can relate to you MOM. Being a FWH I always feel like I have to defend myself. It's also very tough not to feel like a hypocrite to my FWW.It's rough. (sorry to TJ)

--------------------
Me-BS/FWH -41
WW/ BS - 40
D-Day Oct 08 2006
My D-Day Oct 23 1994
2 DDs (5 & 12)
Married 17 yrs
Together 24 yrs

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mkeverydaycnt
Member


Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 2458
Re: Taking responsibility for A on both WS & BS part? [Re: MomtoAandZ]
#3204458 - 03/16/07 10:25 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I don't think FWS are a rung lower in any way. Not even one bit. WS... yes... FWS, I have told many here how proud I was of them for the work they have done to fix themselves and their families.

--------------------
Have a nice day unless you have made other plans!

Some people kiss with their eyes closed. Too bad they marry the same way.

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MomtoAandZ
Member


Reged: 06/20/06
Posts: 265
Loc: Texas Re: Taking responsibility for A on both WS & BS part? [Re: rockbottom06]
#3204462 - 03/16/07 10:27 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




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I can relate to you MOM. Being a FWH I always feel like I have to defend myself. It's also very tough not to feel like a hypocrite to my FWW.It's rough. (sorry to TJ)


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I can certainly understand that. I've often thought about what if my DH had a revenge affair or something like that, or possibly something in his past that I know nothing about. (I'm paranoid that way...). Would I even have the right to be upset about it?

I wouldn't use the word defend though. There's no defense for having an A (I don't think that's what you meant anyway). Some people are just completely amoral from the get go and no matter how perfect their spouse was they would've strayed, sure. But that's not me, I'm guessing not you either. There's no defense, but certainly there are factors that contributed to an environment where I was more vulnerable to making bad choices.

It sucks to have to carry the label forever. Even if it's not an actual scarlet letter on the outside, WE KNOW IT'S THERE. It's on the inside of us, forever.

Apologies to the original poster for going a little OT...

--------------------
FWW - 38 (me) (2 LD EA's, Jan-May '06)
BH - 40 (him)
Dday - May 22, 2006
DD's 11 & 4
M 17 yrs
recovered, grateful, immense respect for my DH
my history: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

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new_beginningII
Member


Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 829
Re: Taking responsibility for A on both WS & BS part? [Re: MomtoAandZ]
#3204479 - 03/16/07 10:39 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




Quote:
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I did not start out life as a morally bankrupt person. I didn't get married as a morally bankrupt person. Most of my life, save those few months I was wayward, I had very high moral standards. I might as well have been a psycopathic adulterer from day one for all the good it did me. Because that's how so many will view and define us always.

sorry for the vent...


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You are not alone. (((((((((A-Z))))))))))) Venting is sometimes necessary!

You know what? I arrived here in 1999, as a recently Wayward trying to recover my marriage. I had been a BS in the marriage, in fact, several times, but you know what? It often *feels like* there is NOTHING worse in the world than a woman who has cheated.

A man who cheats is a dog, a cad, or some other "boys will be boys" term... but a woman?... she's a s1ut, a wh0re, a skank... and I have been called all of those things, by my ex and some people on this site... back in the day, I mean. (My infidelity lasted for several months back in early 1999.)

Like you, it does NOT define me.

And also like you, I was an upstanding, moral, loving wife and mother... until I wasn't. And since then I've worked like h3ll to gain back my self-respect and honour. It's been a VERY tough road, because for me, I made a lot of life-changing choices during my withdrawl and subsequent healing...

Anyway, just wanted to chime in... and say... I made the most horrible choice once, back in 1999, and I regret that. But I am not the same person now. I wasn't he same person before. I snapped, I reacted, I have suffered for my choices during that time.

And now, I heal. Another choice.

--------------------
The Will to Do, The Soul to Dare ~ Sir Walter Scott

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MomtoAandZ
Member


Reged: 06/20/06
Posts: 265
Loc: Texas Re: Taking responsibility for A on both WS & BS part? [Re: mkeverydaycnt]
#3204485 - 03/16/07 10:42 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




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I don't think FWS are a rung lower in any way. Not even one bit. WS... yes... FWS, I have told many here how proud I was of them for the work they have done to fix themselves and their families.


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I wasn't pointing to anyone in particular. Reading the posts today was kind of a "straw that broke the camel's back" in terms of what I have been feeling all along when I read comments about waywards from BS's. I'm certainly not saying any BS doesn't have a right to feel the way they do. We were horrible, we did something truly awful and really, justifiably unforgiveable (we're fortunate that we do get forgiven).

That's what causes me such anguish. That I did that. That's me (the former wayward me) they're talking about. I don't think I'll ever feel "clean" again.

Don't laugh...but, it's not you...it's me.

--------------------
FWW - 38 (me) (2 LD EA's, Jan-May '06)
BH - 40 (him)
Dday - May 22, 2006
DD's 11 & 4
M 17 yrs
recovered, grateful, immense respect for my DH
my history: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

Hi rockbottom,

I also want to add my final post on that thread::

MomtoAandZ,

I hope you will read my post to you, above (we were posting at the same time ).

You are not alone and this is nothing new. You sound very remorseful, and I would hate to have you think this won't end...

I would like to say one other thing to any other FWW's out there (FWH's, too)...

As long as you stay and post here, it will be a reminder, and the new, raw pain of some posters will be directed to you, or to others like you, or not to you at all but it will *feel like it*...

Time away from MB might help.

When you feel stronger, you can return to offer support to others and 'pay it forward'... that's what I do... and others... who have been around since the beginning.

I really didn't mean "defending" what I did. There is no defending that. It is defending the fact that I am no longer that person who did those things and I feel that I have worked hard to get where I am now.
I think that being a FWH helps me to understand my FWW perspective a little and what she is dealing with. At least I think.

I knew you didn't mean it that way, just from the context of the posts of yours I have read, but I knew someone else MIGHT misread it that way. I do think your position definitely helps you in understanding your FWW's perspective. I know my DH just couldn't get his head around it, still can't. He just can't see me as that person. I think he blames OM more, I blame myself more than DH does.

For some reason, just having a bad day. Started thinking about "stuff" last night. Thinking about how it was all a fantasy, I know it was a fantasy, I know OM was not a soulmate. I know this and I'm totally fine there. OM is POS. How was I that stupid? The problem is I feel like I'm mourning the death of the fantasy itself. Okay, it's getting hard to explain. But...I've always had that "fantasy" that the right person would make me happy, we would get along so well and meet each other's needs, yadda, yadda...I have to accept that there is no such thing as this fantasy. I know this. My happiness is up to me. My DH is being so wonderful and great to me. Yet, I'm mourning the demise of this lifelong fantasy in some way...I think. I'm not even sure. I'm also still pretty angry with OM and I can't even tell him off!

Maybe it's because I'm approaching the year mark, dunno.

NB, I did see your post, and I appreciate it. I did take time away from MB at one point. I started MB pretty soon after d-day and then took a break while I went through withdrawal and all. I came back because I want to stay grounded, keep my priorities in check, and of course keep improving my M.

I learn so much here. This place helps me keep my head on straight.

I know no one is attacking me personally. I'm just venting mostly at disappointment in myself more than anything probably. There are certain threads I should probably avoid. But it does feel good to have helped someone. I need something to feel good about

I tried some different boards before I came here and I was practically chased off by a few posters there who pretty much told me that I got what I deserved and other cruel things like that.
I don't think that some can actually recover or be remorseful about choices they made in the past. You made a lot of sense to me when you said that you seemed to be judged by the worst thing that you have done. I feel the same way.
Thanks for posting here. I like to hear the feedback from a FWW.

So MOM, have you ever forgiven yourself? I know that I haven't and I don't know if I ever can.I have been told in some past IC that I seemed to be racked with guilt and that I have to forgive myself and let go of my past.
I don't know if that's ever possible. I just feel that would be selfish to just forgive myself and move on. I owe my wife a lot for the pain that I inflicted upon her and to me to forgive myself would seem, I don't know, disrespectful. Maybe because I never felt truly forgiven by her. I don't know,

I don't doubt that you felt chased off, I looked at some others sites too, this seemed like the best place to be.

It's not just that I think others are judging me (which is just my perception and not reality) it's that I'm judging myself as well. And also, feeling like a fake/imposter in front of other moms, whoever, who have no clue what I did.

The pain of recovery far outweighs the good times had during the A by far. If those on the brink would realize this before they jump in, so much pain could be avoided.

I was telling this to somebody else here once that sometimes I feel guilty because my daughter looks up to me and thinks that I am so great. She doesn't really know the awful things that her daddy has done.
I beat myself up a lot over this.

Hey MOM, here is something that JustLearning wrote me once and it helped me a lot. I don't know if you've ever read it or not. Here it is:
_________________________________________________________



Rock,

I am going to repeat a story I have told here many times. It is a personal story, but I think it might have bearing on you and Mrs. Rock.

My father was a career military officer, a pilot. He fought in 3 wars. As kid he was my hero. Of course he was my father right? He was a leader and it came naturally to him. So naturally I respected him a lot. As I got older, he and I would cross swords so to speak, what teenager doesn't, but he was still my hero.

As I got even older, was in the military myself, I got to meet many of his old war buddies (the ones that survived), and I found out my Dad was not perfect. I learned more about his childhood, how he grew up, the depression, and that fact that he had his faults. He would tell me then as we became friends not just father and son, how many faults he had, and how he regretted many things in his life. Often even things he had no control over. In fact, as he got older and his health was failing, I learned even more.

But, what my father never understood was that as I learned he was not perfect, and perhaps not "heroic" as I thought as a kid, I became even more proud of him. Because I began to realize that he had accomplished alot in his life "inspite" of being human, with human failings. As this awareness came to me, I came to learn that it is not the failings that determine someone but how they overcome them.

Rock you and Mrs. Rock have failed in your life as we all have, but what will be the measure of both of your lives is how you overcome them. Rock, your W is human and she can learn, she can grow, she can overcome, just as you can. The measure in the end is what you two do with those abilities. How well you two seize this OPPORTUNITY to overcome failure and pain.

What you two are very likely to find is that you will become each other's heros, and it will be because you are human and can fail that it will mean so much. If either or you were perfect, the challenge and the reward would NOT be what it can be.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I like the part about, it's not your failures that you will be measured by, but how you overcome them.

I missed this post, we must have been posting at the same time. I couldn't believe you wrote this, I feel the exact same way. Like I shouldn't forgive myself, it's wrong. Like to be happy with myself is disrespectful.

I completely get what you're saying. This is the first time I've run across another FWS who expressed the same feeling I have.

I know in my case it is NOT due to lack of forgiveness from my DH. He has forgiven me. All of the things I was afraid of (having it thrown in my face during an argument, using it against me to get me to agree to something, feeling I didn't have the right to ask for my needs because of what I did, etc.) never happened. That's why I said I feel like I'm harder on myself than DH!

Isn't that crazy? The FBS forgives the FWS but the FWS can't forgive herself?

I agree. At least you have been forgiven. I really don't know or officially been told that I have been forgiven. What makes it official? We just never talked about it after awhile. Just like now with my FWWs EA/PA. We don't communicate at all.
I'm surprised that I am the first FWS that has expressed the same feelings that you do about not feeling right about forgiving yourself. It's funny because it's definately not that I'm proud at all for what I did. But I have no problem telling someone what I did in my past. I think it's some kind of self-punishment or something. To me it's like it's tattooed on my forehead.
I cannot express how much I regret what I had done. It seems like you feel the same way.

Mom and Rockbottom,

Have you by chance read any of FinallyLearningT2H's thread?

I would invite you to go on over and do so, if you haven't yet....we've been talking alot about forgiving ourselves.

You two are not alone in feeling the way you do....

Really, it's worth a read!

Now


I am a FWW-recovered

Interesting thread...I can identify with a lot of it...Mr. W and I were just talking about something quite similar...I was talking about always looking back on my life and having regrets...ALWAYS regreting the affair...FOREVER...How would it ever be possible for me not to regret? To me it seemed disrespectful to Mr. W if I were not to feel this way...Mr. W said that he would MUCH rather that I just be happy in the now...So that we can be happy together...Regret doesn't take away or change the past anyway, and besides, the past is the past...He said something to the effect of..."let's move forward from here and be happy together"...Made an giant impact on me...Hope it helps someone else...

Mrs. W

Well, tonight I attempted to talk to FWW about some things. It didn’t go very well. I know that she was a little stressed at work today, and our flooded basement didn’t make any matters any better. I really didn’t intend to get into it tonight, but it kind of progressed into a little session.
She asked me what more I could possibly need to know. I told her (referring to Joseph’s letter) that she holds all the facts and that I would just like to know a few more things to fill in some holes that were bothering me. I told her that I thought it would be helpful if we could understand more about why this happened so maybe we could prevent anything like this in the future.
All I would get was “Why did you do it”? I told her that I am fine with analyzing why I had my affair twelve years ago and that in fact tonight I would write down and try to list reasons why I think that I failed.
I just tried to talk. But she would start yelling and getting animate. She thinks that I am badgering her, but really I’m not.
I hope I did the right thing. She told me that she regretted dating other guys way back when we were going out as teenagers and that she felt left out. So (I know I shouldn’t have) I asked her if that was the lifestyle that she wanted now and if she wanted a divorce. She said no.
I told her that I cherished our history, but she seems to regret being so attached to me so much back then.
She told me that it bothers her when I am posting here at MB (although earlier she told me that she thought it was good, and even thanked you for your support in her post).
I asked her some questions that were bothering me.
I brought up some things that she had written in a note to OM3 and that set her off. She cried and told me that I was making her relive things that she has been blocking out.
I know that I probably didn’t do things perfectly tonight. I really am not trying to badger her. Honestly.
When I told her that I loved her, she told me that she doesn’t believe me (huh?) and that she doesn’t believe half of the things that I tell her. I don’t know where she came up with that.
Tomorrow is a new day so hopefully it will be better.
Just thought I would vent a little. Thanks for listening.
Rock

She told me that she regretted dating other guys


Oops, that was supposed to be not dating other guys

Rock,

You need to sit down and start writing your question out. Then write out why you feel you need to know. Then write out how this information will help you. Let it sit for a few days and review the questions and ask yourself "have I ask these questions before", if so what did I do with the information, why do I need to ask again.

In some ways you are badgering her, because she does not KNOW the turmoil you are in. I would ask you "did she treat you this way" when you had your affair? If so for how long?

Really in someways it does not matter. Just asking questions is not going to solve your issues. Further, you are supposed to be healing this marriage as much as she is. That does not mean you let obvious things slide but it does mean you have to have a plan and a purpose to your questions and actions. The only purpose she sees is that you are trying to make her "pay" for her affairs. If that is your purpose then keep doing what you are doing. If it is not when you start to ask your questions, do it in reverse. Tell her what is bothering you, then what piece of information you need to address this, and then ask the question. More importanly, ask her for her input.

Here is an example. " Mrs. Rock I keep having these unsettling thoughts about... I need your advice. How should I address them? I cannot seem to just forget them, but I know just asking you questions is not productive for me or you. So do you have any suggestions? I know you went through something very much like this, how did you handle it?"

Do you see this is about YOU, not her now. You are also likely to learn something you never thought you needed to know. Make the questions about YOU, not her. You will get further, and the answers may even help you.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Tell Mrs. Rock Hi! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hope she posts some more, I enjoyed talking with her.

Thanks for the response. I was hoping you were out there.
I did tell her that I wan't trying to badger her. I told her that I was just trying to let her know about certain things that were bothering me.
I see your point about writing out my questions. I'm going to try that.
Thanks, I appreciate your input more than you know.

I will tell Mrs Rock hi for you. She really thinks that you are helpful.
In fact here's what she had to say about your posts:

Boy this guy is very insightful. I like what he has to say.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and this:

This guy needs to be a counselor or something. He has some valid points.

Thanks for pointing that one out, I will check in there.

Rock,

I'm sorry about how things went tonight.

I have one comment. When she said she didn't believe you loved her, do you think it could be that she can't understand how you could *still* love her after what she's done to you? Seeing as how we are so familiar with guilt and all, just thought I'd throw that out there.

JL's idea is great. Remember she doesn't like to talk about it because it brings her face to face with the awful things she did. I remember having the same problem. It wasn't that I didn't want to talk necessarily, but I was so very ashamed and afraid I was just going to hurt DH more and more.

Mom

Rock,
I think you and your wife need to call Steve Harley. You two seem to be stuck in a rut. This can go on and on without really moving on.

With your past A and her with 3 of them I think a real pro may be needed at this point.

I guess I should just push everything under the rug and move on I guess. I guess recovery is just going to be me dealing with my pain. This is so frustrating.
I see her point of not wanting to talk about it because maybe she is ashamed or doesn't want to hurt me. I understand that. I am just trying to figure out some things. I know that everyone has a different need of knowing about what happened. Part of me would just like to, for once, know everything then let it all go.
It is definately a rut. All she will do is bring up my past and compare things. If she wants to talk about my past that is fine with me. I guess I just need a different approach.
One of the most frustrating thing is that she says that she doesn't believe me and that she thinks that I say some things because I have to.
She says that she hates having to come home everyday and has to worry about what kind of mood I'm in. It's just a mess. Why can't we just talk?
Well, today is a new day and another chance to do the right things. Sorry for going on and on.

Rock,

Visit the MomA-Z thread would'ya? I've had a bad day and could use some advice.

Mom

I'm on my way Mom, I was just getting done watching my beloved Spartans lose to the dang TarHeels.

Uh oh. Bad night. How in the world does anyone get through this. I know that my FWW feels frustrated because I guess she does not know what to do. I tell her that she is doing fine. It's just me and how I am able tohandle things.
I must just be a weak person I guess. I wish I could just stand up to this and be tough.
It's just so hard sometimes.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

JL, you hit the nail on the head when you said that I do not know where that woman went to and how my FWW came back. I don't even know at what point that happened. If there was just a certain day that she realized some things or what. Do you think that it is important that I try to understand that?

I wish there was some big blueprint for recovery that I could read. I don’t know what else to do anymore. I am so tired of hurting. I have to make a stand at some point and conquer all these negative thoughts, triggers and feelings that continually play in my head.
I think that I feel like I need a big statement of commitment from my FWW then I can start to put things behind me and start t o let go and move on. At least that’s how I think I feel. In her defense, she has been very good as of late. She seems to be doing everything that she knows what to do to help me and is probably getting very frustrated. I keep telling her though that most of the problems lately are my fault. My fault because I feel that I’m not always handling my emotions very well.

I think that I fear that maybe she isn’t as committed to our marriage as much as I am. I fear that maybe something else will happen somewhere down the road perhaps. I don’t know. I really have to identify some of my fears.
I want to be able to move forward in our marriage and grow closer together again the way we used to. I never used to be much of an emotional or compassionate husband. Well, I think that I was, I just never showed it. Now I can’t help but to wear my emotions on my sleeve and she tells me that it’s hard for her to accept it now. I just hope that in time she will come to accept it. This whole situation has changed my life.
The problem now is that I am somewhat stuck in a rut, wondering why this happened, or how could she do this to me. I also try to fill in the blanks in the storylines of parts that I don’t know of. I either have to know everything I want to, or I have to learn to let some of my curiosity go and concentrate on moving forward towards forgiveness.

My self esteem has been shattered. It was low enough before this all happened. She used to be attracted to me. I’m not quite sure anymore. Sure I’m not the best looking guy in the world. I’ve put on a few pounds. I keep telling myself that I am going to work on getting myself into better shape. Geez, I’ve got a brand new treadmill and exercise machine in the basement. Why can’t I get motivated? If I get myself into better shape will she love me again? She always told me that our sex life was great. Why did she have to go and get it from someone else? There are a couple of embarrassing things that have to do with our sex life that possibly could have factored into things I guess.

I just want my life back. No wait, I want a better life.
That’s all the pity I have for myself at the moment.
Rock

Here I am yet again. I was just thinking about the “talk” that I tried to have with my FWW last Friday.
She told me that she feels like if she has to come home everyday from work she has to show me remorse and that she feels guilty if she comes home in a good mood. Not because of her, but because she feels that I will be upset if I see her in a good mood. She told me that she has to come home and “bow” to me everyday. WTF? She told me that she always has to wonder how I am feeling or what kind of mood I am in that day.
I told her that I will put that all the “how I’m feeling” to rest. I told her that I am crushed and I am just dealing with things. Sometimes better than others. I am not just thinking about what a terrible person she was. I’m just dealing with what happened.
I don’t know how most of you BSs feel about SF with the WS. She told me that I have forced it upon her as if to reclaim my prize. She told me that she no longer wants to SF and that she hates it.
I admit that maybe close to D-day that I did want to SF quite a bit, because maybe I thought that I had to prove that I was “better”. I don’t know. It bothers me now because she says that SF sucks. Yet it was ok and she pursued it with OM as much as she could. I think that is one of the reasons that I feel like such a piece of garbage to her. It really is a blow to my self esteem.
I also have to admit that SF with her is getting harder and harder because all I can imagine is her doing this with him. It sucks.
I love her so much and I really desire SF with her, but it is so bittersweet. I’m sure a lot of you know how that is.

Rock- please think about calling the Harleys. They have seen this sitch many times and they have a way of cutting right to the point.

MOM,

You hit the nail right on the head. I truely can not understand why he would love me after I hurt him so deeply. And I really do not want to hurt him anymore.

I think what JL suggested was good advise. I have even told him to wrtie down his questions. It seems when we have these sessions some of the same questions and comments come up. It just does not seem to move on from there.

Thank you for being here for MRR, I know he appreciates your views and advise.

Mrs. Rock

Mrs.R, I too ask my FWW the same questions over and over at times. Don't know why I ask them, but my wife always answers them. If your H asks the same question 1,000 times then you should answer him 1,000 times. After a while the questions seem to change and will move on to new ones until there are no more questions left to ask. Not many anyway.

All part of recovery

This is HER guilt talking, those are her feelings. Have you expressed to her that you do not expect that? Maybe validate you understanding her feelings but that you want a happy wife. Think about the guilt you have after 12 years? How much is that magnified for her with it being so recent and 3 times over.


Like I suggested, maybe you could set aside a time for R talk. A time period where you can plan your questions ahead of time, you assure her you will listen and not lose it...and then the subject's closed until the next "session." What do you think of that?


My feeling would be that if she hates SF it's not necessarily you, it's that SF is a big trigger for her. It's a very up close, personal reminder of what she has done (taken away?) from you. Maybe it's the feelings the come flooding back when she's having SF with you that's the problem, not you?


I think she knows this and that is why it is hard for her. It may just be one of those things that takes time to recover from? You're hurt because of what she did, she hurts because she knows you're hurting. I don't know if this is a valid suggestion or not, but how would you feel if she expressed remorse, how sorry she was she hurt you, told you how much she loved you and was grateful to you and that she only wanted you, right before or during SF? I read a similar suggestion in another thread a while back.
Do you think that might help break that barrier?


Mom

I guess that's how I feel. I know that she is sorry and feels remorse. I know that I don't need her to come home and apologize to me everyday. I think I just need one big talk of remorse or a heartfelt letter or something. I don't know because then I will start feeling bad for making her do that. It's a vicious cycle.
As a FWW did you do something like that for your BS? Am I expecting too much?

Mrs. Rock,

I will repeat what Maybe2Late said. Asking the same questions over and over is really the BS checking. What are they checking.

Well the obvious answer is:

1. How truthful you are. If the answers keep lining up, then what happens is the BS builds trust.

2. They are checking to see if anything is changing within you. Are you seeing things differently? Are you reevaluating things? Is your perspective changing?

3. They are checking themselves. This one is a biggie. It is my opinion people often ask the same questions because they are checking themselves to see if their pictures, explanations, their memory, and their gut are still telling them the same thing. They NEED this outside reinforcement.

One thing that seems to be clear from reading here for many years is that the requestioning is really not about what the WS did, but what they will do. So it is not an attack on what the WS did but trying to figure out the future.

Mrs. Rock, if you really want this marriage to heal, you should probably set Mr. Rock down, tell him to zip his lip <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, and then explain to him what you need from him as a husband. Haven't you figured out from his posts here, that the piece that is really missing right now, is his place in your life? He doesn't know where he fits in your plans for the future. I am guessing you had similar thoughts when he cheated on you.

He needs to know you need him, want him, and why. He needs your perspective on things and how you see yourself NOW.

All of this is NOT about what you did. It is about what you two will do in the future. And to put a fine point on it, it is about how you see your marriage in the future. What do YOU want it to look like? What is his role in it? How do you see your role in it? In short what is your perspective on this marriage and where YOU want it to go.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

No I don't think you are asking too much. I understand you feeling bad for "making" her do that but maybe it's all in how you word it. If you stated that you think you have figured out what you need that would help you overcome a lot of your hurt right now (heartfelt apology/gesture/letter, etc.) but that you only want her to do it when she sincerely feels it, not just to placate you. Tell her you will leave that in her hands and not badger her about it.

After dday, DH and I talked via IM and email a lot while he was at work. I remember sending several emails where I expressed remorse over what I did and gratitude to him for staying with me and saving me from screwing up my life! I did leave him notes/cards in his car from time to time as well. I was/am very complimentary of him in front of our kids and others (you're so lucky to have such a great dad, etc...).

I think though that the biggest thing that showed my remorse was in actions, not words. I tried to find ways to show him that I loved and appreciated him, doing things out of love instead of begrudgingly. Seeing the effort I was making at improving the M, by reading books and here, etc.

You need more than just her sticking around. You need to feel like she's fully invested. She's lost right now, still reeling from accepting the pain she inflicted. As you remember, it is quite a shock to your sense of self. But I think she'll get there. I really think you both can get past this and be happy again, I really, really do.

Wow JL. You are amazing. You are correct as always. You really have much insight to all of this. You should be getting paid. Lol.
You make me realize things about myself and my search for healing that I wasn't even aware of.
It's true that sometimes I ask things just so I can get her point of view of things. Just tonight we were vaguely talking about OM2. I asked her what she thought of him now.
I am always trying to find out how she feels about things.
Unfortunately though all I got was a sarcastic "No, I think fondly of him".
I just want to know that she thinks he is a POS like I do. Maybe she does, I don't know. I'm always searching.
Thanks again for your great help!
Rock

Say hi to Mrs. Rock, and tell her I'm still thinking about her.

As for your "discussions", I think many marriage counselors tell you to write questions or thoughts down and put them in a jar. Then pick an hour each week to sit down and talk.

I can see where Mrs. Rock would start feeling badgered, especially after a hard day at work, and the basement flooding. At least if it was a set time each week, she would only have to dread one day.

As for the not dating a lot, that is a very common problem for women that found their spouse very early. They continue to have the fantasy that there were all these wonderful men out there, and they missed out on all the fun.

In truth, dating is not all that much fun, pretty much one disappointment after another. But of course she doesn't know that.

Thanks for the tip believer.
I said hi to Mrs. Rock for you. She is sitting right here.
Do you think that the "missing out on all the dating" thing is just a woman's thing? I didn't really date anyone else either and I feel that if I am still in love with the woman that I wanted to spend my life with, then I haven't missed a thing.

Really, I think this is her pain and shame showing through. She is processing the enormity of her actions, and I think those outbursts are part of her wrestling with that.

I know I reached a limit on A talk. The first few weeks after dday, it seemed like all we did was talk about it. I was tired of crying, I was just plain tired. I didn't have myself figured out much less have the answers he needed (as in...why, etc.). I actually begged for a break. I thought I would literally go insane.

I think relegating those discussions to an appointed time will allow both of you the chance to regroup, reflect and maybe your talks will be more productive as well.

What do you think?

Oh, I wanted to add as well. I did feel the same way (we met while I was 17, him 19). My first serious relationship. I certainly had some of that mid life crisis, what have I missed out on going on for sure.

Hi, Mrs. Rock, working on an email for you.

You guys are gonna make it.

Give each other a hug why dontch'ya?

Thanks for the post Mom. Believe me, I don't bring it up every day. Usually I am scared to death to bring it up because it usually gets ugly. It's funny though, the times that we have talked about the A, it usually starts bad, but then after a while the defenses seem to come down and then we start getting somewhere. It's just getting to that point that is such a struggle.
I'm so happy that mrsrock contacted you, I think it's so great and maybe you can help each other somehow.
Thanks Mom, you rock!
I hope things are going well with your situation.
Rock

It's funny because back when I was the FWS I would buy her cards and leave them in her car, I made her tapes with "our" songs on it. I used to drive out of my way almost daily to catch her walking to her office just so I could give her a kiss.
She said that it helped her a lot to get through some things. I did it because I loved her and I was remorseful and I wanted to help her get through the pain that I had caused.
Now I am the BS and I still buy her cards, make her cds with "our" songs on them and write her notes. Now I do it because I am insecure. Also because I love her.
I don't want to say that she hasn't done anything for me, but I just ache sometimes for something. I don't know. I walkthrough the card shop and I see cards that are all mushy and say "I'm sorry" and stuff like that and I wonder to myself why can't she do something like that for me? I don't think that she realizes how much little things like that can make me feel so much better.

Anyway, I am not complaining. She has been so good lately. She has quit drinking. As a family we are all going to church every week too. That means so much to me because usually I would just go by myself. I can't tell you how much I love being there as a family.
SO overall it's been pretty good. A lot of it has to do with all the great advice that we have gotten here.
So thank you all for continuing to take the time to help us.
Rock

[/quote]
I know OM was not a soulmate. I know this and I'm totally fine there. OM is POS. How was I that stupid? [/quote]

I want my wife to think that her OM are POS too!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[/quote]

I do think your position definitely helps you in understanding your FWW's perspective. I know my DH just couldn't get his head around it, still can't. He just can't see me as that person. I think he blames OM more, I blame myself more than DH does.
[/quote]

It's funny because back when I was the recovering WH, it seemed like everyone that knew the OW pretty much blamed me and forgave OW, but then there were people that I knew, like say my MIL, who hated the OW, but seemed to be o.k. with me. I thought that was odd.
Not that I am defending OW in any way shape or form. She was totally wrong for what she did. Actually I really don't care what her reasons were for her part in that awful situation. I just feel so terible that she dragged me down into that. I know that I made choices. Stupid, terrible choices that I will regret til the day I die. I just feel that I should have made better choices and have done the right thing.
I think that is what is so hard for me to understand my FWWs affairs. I am forever beating myself up over what I did and hating myself for it and then she goes out and chooses to do what I hate myself for doing. I just don't understand why she would put herself into the position to be a FWS. Now she is in "the club" so to speak.
I wish I was never part of this awful club.
Oh well, all I can do is to do the right thing from now on.

I know OM was not a soulmate. I know this and I'm totally fine there. OM is POS. How was I that stupid? [/quote]

I want my wife to think that her OM are POS too!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

Rock - in my sitch the OM is/was a Dr. Anyway he could save a life from time to time. Great guy, good dad and plenty of $$$. My wife said all this.

Now that my wife is a FWW she hates the OM. He lied to her, used her and so on. So, yes WW will come to see the OM as a POS in time. It takes time my friend.

It's funny you say that M2L. I remember a few days after D-day and I was questioning her about OM3. She seemed to describe him as a nice guy because he helped people, etc., etc, and that I would probably like him or something. She called him for support after we had an argument. It was odd. I hope that now she doesn't view this guy the way she did. I hope she sees him for what he really was/is, someone who just wanted to get in her pants.
How can you think so highly of someone who would go after a married woman with children?

Hi Mr. and Mrs...

Hope things are going well in the Rock household.

I wanted to tell Rock that I went through the same thing right after d-day. I even told my DH that OM would be good to our kids (like no big deal they wouldn't be with their dad, UGH!).

It's foggy addict talk, Rock.

In the end we know what they are/were, men who were fine with having their various and assorted needs filled by women who should have been giving their time and affection to the one they married. My XMOM played victim post dday and actually got sympathy from the online community we were on. Poor him, his affair partner dumped him to stay with her family...what a freakin' tragedy for him.

We were so stupid.

Hi MomAZ. Good to hear from you and thanks for checking up on us. Today was kinda eh. I got pretty stressed at work today (nuthin to do with the A) and I came home and I was very tired. So then mrs rock starts thinking that I am some kind of bad mood and starts to wonder what she did now. I didn’t handle it very well.
We suck so bad at communicating.
I’ve got a bunch of thoughts to write about but it’s late and I just got home from playing hockey and I have to get to bed. Check back with me later.
Thanks for the post!
Rock

Dear Mrs Rock,

I just wanted to pop in and say welcome...how much I admire your courage and bravery for sharing here...

I was a serial cheater. Past tense. No future or present tense.

And our marital communication sucked, as well. Really helped to do MC and communication exercises twice a week (only took half an hour twice a week)...and we did them for over a year and half...funny thing, we just did another one last week...helped us to reorient again.

I would be happy to share the exercises and anything else you may want to know with you.

DJs were at the core of why I chose to cheat...and when I really got how much I assumed and mindread...from body language, facial expressions, even silence, let alone, misperception...my life changed greatly.

And Mr. Rock...what you see in others you have in yourself...a rule I learned about our human design...a tool, not a judgment. When you said that Mrs Rock started thinking you were in a bad mood...is that what she shared with you, this perception?

Delights my heart and soul to see you both here, sharing...you're not alone, bad or wrong...you are awesome humans and it's a privilege to get to post to you guys.

LA

Thanks LA. I always value your insight.

I can so relate. We used to deal with that kind of stuff too. My DH would just tell me "it's got nothing to do with you!" And you know what Mrs. Rock, if he says it doesn't have anything to do with you, it's doesn't, it's not personal, just give him some time and he'll snap out of it. Most likely if you try to "snap" him out of it that just makes things worse. Reading Mars/Venus and how men need their cave time etc. helped a lot.

LA is also a great help with this kind of thing too.

And LA, I would love to see info on those communication exercises too.

Hope today goes well.

Mom

MoM,

Do you have become a real asset on this site? You have. Keep an eye on LA, she has become one of the best posters here, and you are learning will MoM.

God Bless,

JL

Hi. Well I had a pretty good afternoon. I met Mrs. Rock for lunch. It's always tough to have to pick her up because OM3 is very close. I handled it well and didn't let the triggers
get to me. Then when went to a restaurant where we have been in a while, and what do I see when I walk in? An advertisement to the gym where she got involved with OM2 at. She said she was sorry, but I told her that it wasn't her fault.
I told her that it seems wherever I go there is some sort of reminder or trigger. SHe felt bad, but I told her not to worry about it.
We had a very nice lunch and had a nice talk. The talk was much better than the food. (No wonder we haven't been there in a while)
She told me that I was a good husband and that she appreciated me and things I do for her. That felt really good. She told me that she told someone at work about an incident where she called me at work crying because she couldn't find our cat and I drove home to help her look for it. She said that the person at work told her that her husband would never do that. Nothing big, but I'm glad she told me that she appreciated it.
I told her that I would do anything for her. SO she asked me if I would get on the floor and lick the floor for her. I told her don't push it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Then when I brought her back to her office she had me help her carry in some stuff to her desk. That was kind of weird because OM1 works there too. Maybe he is off or something, I don't know. I thought there might be a chance that I would run into him. Not that I would have really cared too much.
Just thought I would share my nice afternoon.
Is it time that I move my thread to the Recovery board?
Rock

I know OM was not a soulmate. I know this and I'm totally fine there. OM is POS. How was I that stupid? [/quote]

I want my wife to think that her OM are POS too!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

In my opinion: Instead, shoot for your wife to be INDIFFERENT to the OM.

Hating takes a lot of energy... much more than you want her to expend on him.

Really think about this and I think you'll see what I mean.

(I know what I mean! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

[/quote]

In my opinion: Instead, shoot for your wife to be INDIFFERENT to the OM.

Hating takes a lot of energy... much more than you want her to expend on him.

Really think about this and I think you'll see what I mean.

(I know what I mean! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) [/quote]

I guess I kind of see your point. I guess I will have to think about that one. I didn'y say I wanted her to hate them. Although I really don't see what harm that would be. I just want her to acknowledge that they are POS.
I am a recovered POS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rock,

The problem you have is that then she must admit she is a POS.
I have the distinct feeling that you don't view her as a POS do you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> NB is right, indifference is THE best point of view. And as you two recover that is where you will be.

Let me explain the symmetry of this. She was strongly attached to OM's right? You are strongly repulsed by OM right? However BOTH positions are positions of strong emotional investment, takes energy, takes focus, and takes your focus away from other things.

Where she should end up and where YOU should end up is INDIFFERENT. No emotional investment, no energy expended, you are focused on your W and your marriage. She is focused on you and you marriage. Do you see the symmetry?

I believe I will spell this right by Weismann, is quoted as saying And you can see why this is so.

You are probably MORE emotionally invested in OM than your W is right now. How does that sound? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Pretty slimy right?

Think carefully about what NB said. She is right as usual.

God Bless,

JL

I know, or at least am pretty sure that she wasn't very strongly attached to the OM. She never had any intention of leaving me, they were just someone to have sex with. I am not emotionally invested in any of the OM either.
Anyway, my whole point in the post that has caused such controvery was a response to something I believe Maybe2Late or maybe MomtoAZ posted. Something was said about their FWS thinking that the OM is a POS and I just commented that I hoped my FWW felt the same way.
We are not really spending much energy on hating any of the OM. Honestly. You can't blame me for hoping that my FWW harbors any fond thoughts of the OM.

For the record I was responding to a quote by MomtoAZ not M2L.

HEY - I think any OM is a POS also - my wife's FOM included. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don't leave me out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

JL, you know how that made me smile! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for saying that, it means a lot to me.

Inside I do feel like I'm changing, I'm not just being a better wife, I'm becoming a better person. Many things are clicking into place.

LA is awesome (as are you, Pep and many others) and I have learned SO VERY MUCH.

Mom,

Isn't it amazing how perspectives change and with those changes comes so many insights? You really are doing much better than you realize and you really are a huge asset here.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, I was the one who first mentioned OP as POS..for the record, lol!

I do see NB and JL's point. Carrying that anger is not constructive. That's something I have to work on too.

Rock, I'm glad you had a nice day. She is starting to show you some painful realizations on her part and you handled it very well (by affirming she's not POS!). A year out, and I'm still working on forgiving myself, but I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. Understanding how a FBS could still love and want to be with a FWS is hard for us FWS's, but it sounds like you are on the right track.

Hmmm, so many topics.
Like I said before I can see that hating is wasting your energy. I guess that I really wasn't looking as hating as a verb. Just as a statement. No wait, I didn't say hate at all. Anyway I do see NBs and JLs ponts. I do agree with M2L though that any OM is a POS. I can't see any other way to describe them. That may sound hypocritical of me to say that and not describe my FWW the same way, but I guess it's because I love her. She knows that I view my WW that way, but not my FWW.
Gosh, how did I get into this debate. Anyway.
_____________________________________________________
Mom,
You definately deserve the compliments from JL. I know that JL is a true proffesional here. His insight has helped both mrs rock and myself tremendously.
You too have been a great help as well, just as M2L has been when he sort of took me under his wing when I first got here.
You have all been my "dream team", I've got the proffesional advice from JL, I've got the same kind of situation help from Maybe2Late, and I've got the insight from a FWW and guilt-ridden comrade. You guys have been awesome!
_____________________________________________________
Also Mom, on the subject of forgiving yourself. Does your BS bring your A up often? My A still gets brought up in arguments and is now used as a comparison. Not always but sometimes. I think that it is hard to get over it when it's brought up so much.
Thanks guys!
Rock

Oh and Mom, please don't take offense, but mrs rock has been very busy. That's why she hasn't responded to the email yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I didn't want to falsely quote you.

Pshaw! No worries!

It depends on what you mean by brought up. DH has never, not once, used my A's against me in a fight, thrown them in my face or used it to manipulate in any way. We do talk about it as part of healing and growth when needed. That is one of the reasons why I respect him so much. If it's brought up often, do you think it could be because she still has unresolved issues about it? Has this been recent, since her A's or was it always like that?

Give an example of how it's brought up in an argument.

Pshaw? Lol! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As far as her bringing it up, I guess she really has seemed to bring it up when I question her about her A. (and me being my guilt-ridden self pretty much thinks that I deserve it) It's funny because even before her A, I told her that whenever we had an argument and she brought up my A that the fight was over, she had won. I had no defense for it.
O.k., back to the question. I guess she will bring it up when I'll ask her how she could have done this or that and she will just say "How did you"? Or something like that. That was just an example.

You know Rock, I have been thinking about your sitch and you (like all BS) want your wife to think of the OM as POS. Maybe b/c she still sees them/one OM each work day she still sees them as a person. A person that has feelings and problems of their own.

My wife told me (while in WD) not to call the OM b/c she didn't want me to kick a dog while it is down. Don't add to his misery I guess. Now that she has been away from him for many months she could not care less what he feels.

I hear you M2L. I think that this whole wanting my FWW wanting to think that the OM are POS is getting blown way out of proportion. I was just agreeing with MOMtoAZ.
Here's how I feel. I feel that any man going after a married woman is a scumbag. There is no energy that I am expending on them. That's just how I feel. I hardly ever even think of them. Even my FWW has told me that I probably like to talk to them and I told her not really. I feel like I am on a totally different level than they are and it would be a total waste of time.
I told her that although my self esteem is at an all time low, but what helps me feel good about myself is that I know that I am a better man than the OMs. I really don't put much energy into hating them.
My big fear is that FWW may hold some compassion or something for them.That is always what I am trying to find out. I know that she works with OM1 and still considers him a friend I guess. I'm sure she thinks that he is a nice guy and such. Hopefully she doesn't think that what he did was alright. I feel like I have no control over that. I really don't know what she thinks of OM2 or OM3.
To me OM3 is still a big mystery. To have sex with him and read the things that she wrote and knowing somewhat of all the times they talked confuses me. It sure seems like more of a relationship than wht she makes it out to be.
But then again, she won't talk about it with me, so who knows? Not me.

Rock,

As well as you two are doing, she does need to talk to you about it and her feelings then and now. No amount of hiding behind your A will help her make this right. I am hoping with time she will take full responsibility for her own decisions and actions and speak with you candidly about her decisions and feelings.

If she does not, the marriage may last but it will not be made into what it should be.

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL. I agree with everything you said. It's seems like we are starting to move in that direction. We seem to be starting to communicate a little better lately.
I don't want to push her too much. I am starting to feel better about our progress. Thanks for continuing to check on us!
Rock

Steady as she goes, Rock.

This stuff does take time and I really think that Mrs. Rock gets it. It is just hard to accept.

God Bless,

JL

I second the time part. Sloooow - man way too slow for me too.

Hang in there buddy!!

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I agree JL, but unfortunately she doesn't think there is any more to talk about. I know that a lot of questions I have probably aren't that important in the large scope of things and I will probably let them go in time There are some that I do think are important, or at least I think so at the moment.
There are things like when did this begin? Or why do you think this happened? Or how long did you think this would go on? How do you think we can prevent this from happening again?
Stuff like that.
I've been thinking about my A. I have been defending myself for 12 years now and although I know it was terrible and I think that I probably hate it more than even she does, but I don't know. I'm just tired of it being thrown up in my face or used as some kind of defense of her situations.
That's just how I'm feeling right now.

[/quote]

DH has never, not once, used my A's against me in a fight, thrown them in my face or used it to manipulate in any way. We do talk about it as part of healing and growth when needed. That is one of the reasons why I respect him so much. If it's brought up often, do you think it could be because she still has unresolved issues about it? [/quote]

Believe me, I want to get to a point where I never have to bring it up. I'm sure that someday I will reach that point. There's just to much stuff at the moment that I am looking for answers to. I just have to figure out what I feel that I need to know to help the healing process and what things that I want to know just to satisfy my curiosity.
I guess she never really resoved my A to her satisfaction. I thought we were doing well with it. I wish I (we) could put it behind us. I also know that it's easy for her to bring mine up to help with the dealing of her own.
I just don't want to sweep this all under the rug, because obviously that was what happened with my A and now it still comes up now and then.
I would like to deal with her's the right way and move forward and never bring it up again. At least in a deconstructive manner.
Rock

O.k., here’s how things are going so far. It has been over six months since D-day. The thoughts of the affairs aren’t hitting me as often, but they still do. There are many triggers that take me back. It seems like every day I try to remember what was happening last year around this time. It still hurts. I find myself much more of an emotional person now. Heck, sometimes I will catch myself shedding a tear watching Extreme Makeover: Home Edition. Lol.
FWW and I still do not talk very much about the affairs. She can’t understand what more I need to know. To tell you the truth I still think that I know very little about what happened. I think that I’m just learning to let some stuff go or just learning to deal with the unknown better.

My FWW has been very good lately. She has shown a compassionate side that I haven’t seen from her in years. It feels so good to actually feel that she cares. I’m just hoping that it’s not fake. I’ve told her that I don’t want any facade (sp?). I’ve told her that if she doesn’t love me or does not want this marriage, then let’s not just pretend. I told her that I am here because I love her and I want to salvage us and our family. I truly believe that we can be happy again.

As I said, she has been treating me well and fulfilling my EN. She still has the attitude of sweeping it under the rug though. Then again, I have to ask myself what I really expect of her. I think I envy a lot of the FWW on these boards that I have met. They just seem to have a passion for making things right in their marriages. Maybe that’s not a fair thing to say regarding my FWW. She is doing what she thinks she must do.

I was so happy that she came here and posted and even started talking with MomtoAZ on the side. Which kind of fizzled out. (Thanks for trying Mom).

We occasionally have SF. Sometimes it’s harder for me than others. Keeping the thoughts of her with OM3 ruins the mood sometimes.
Well, I’m probably not making much sense right now. Just kinda talking to myself I guess. I’ll check back later.
Rock

Hello anyone. Just feel like writing at the moment.
Today I had lunch with my FWW. She seemed kind of down so I tried to ask her what was bothering her. She started talking to me about the OM and the A. She brought it up herself and I was just amazed by it. It felt so good to talk about it with her in such a civilized manner. She gave up some info and I really appreciated it. Although I might have pushed a little too much after she started to open up a little. Then she told me that she didn’t want to pour too much fuel on the fire.
It was just so nice to talk like that because it feels like we are on the same team and working together on the situation. So that was nice.
I just thought I would share that.
Rock

Keep up the good work mr. and mrs. Rock!!

Rock, I really do feel we are singing from a very similar hymnsheet in what we're feeling. I suppose it's the same for everyone here, as we're all in the same boat. It's just that you do seem to be voicing more or less what I have been thinking. And we are on a similar affair timescale too.

Hi DH. I haven't read your story yet. I would put mine on my sig line but I don't know how to create a link like that. Anyway, I feel so frustrated because I never know what is "normal" as far as recovery goes. SOmetimes I think that I'm doing real well and it's all looking fine, but then the next day I am consumed with triggers and awful images that I just can't overcome and I wonder how in the world I am ever going to get through this.
I do love my FWW very much and want to save my marriage. Sometimes it's just so tough. I think my biggest problem is always wondering how she feels about everything. I don't want a false recovery.
Thanks for posting and please feel free to check with me again since we are so close as far as our timetable goes. Take care,
Rock

The rollercoaster is on the downhill today. Depression is kicking my a$$. I feel like just going somewhere and curling up in a ball and crying. I feel like such a wimp.
Sorry, just venting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Rock,

Mrs. Rock opening up to you is a great sign and at 6 months this seems to be pretty much on schedule. I think as she processes stuff she will talk more. I do hope you thanked her for sharing with you her feelings and thoughts.

Oh! and 6 months is usually where the BS starts to show anger, or depression. Why? Well the conjecture is that by this time the BS knows the marriage is likely to make it, and the iron grip they have had and needed to have on many emotions can be loosened abit. When that happens deep feelings come to the surface and often manifest themselves as anger, or perhaps depression this is normal.

Tell you what. Tonight when you go home, tell Mrs. Rock you need her to hug you and just hold you. If she asks if something is wrong, just tell her the truth, "you are a bit down today" and could use her help.

Does this seem familiar? It should it is basically what she did the other day when she opened up. She trusted you enough to tell you her feelings, and you listened didn't you. By listening and talking with her, you helped her a lot. She needed your help, and when you need hers open up and let her help you.

You two talk about this, but ask for help when you need it, and thank her when she responds. Sometimes it is not the words but the actions that lead up to them that count.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL. I needed that.
I did thank MrsR for sharing some thoughts with me. She talked about some things on her own free will. It was great. Of course then I kind of pushed a little too much for some info.
I know that I'm doing o.k. It helped to know that I am in the correct timeline of things.
Your statement about the deep emotions being loosened from the iron grip made a lot of sense too.
Thanks for the help. Rock

Help. I am in a rut. I heard that I am in the 6 month D-day stage. Anger and depression are the norm because I am starting to release some emotions that were held pretty much in check with an iron grip until now.
Not that I’m lashing out. I feel more depressed than anything. I’m not being a very happy, cheerful husband lately. Actually I’ve been kind of grumpy to my FWW and kids. I hate it. It is definately depression. Or at least I think so. Mrs rock has been good to me lately. I certainly can’t complain about that.
My problem is I can’t shut my mind off. I keep thinking of her PA and it’s killing me. I don’t want to discourage her at all. Well, just thought I’d vent a little. Thanks for listening.
Rock

Rock,
I wish I was as far along as you and I know you just wanted to vent, but do you have any other symptoms other than feeling depressed and grumpy?

The reason I ask, is that I was feeling very depressed right after D-Day, still cannot sleep through the night without Benadryl, lost my apatite. I have found that lifting and running in the evenings helps me a lot. Both require that I focus on what I am doing, without requiring a lot of mental horsepower. So I get relief from the negative thoughts and at the same time get real fatigued and when I come home, the fatigue helps me to relax and get to sleep. You doing any kind of exercise routine?

Hi Gameface. Thanks for the post.
I'm constantly tired too. This just weighs heavily on me all the time. Well, most of the time. Just after D-Day I had no appetite and could hardly sleep.
I can sleep ok now, and I also eat like a pig. Which sucks. Another reason that I think I am so tired is because I haven't been taking very good care of my diabete and I think my blood sugar has been high. I've been kind of neglecting my health lately.
As far as excercising, I really should be doing a lot more. I can't seem to get motivated. We have a nice treadmill in the basement and I also have a nice Bowflex that we just got a few months ago. I keep meaning to work out more. It's just hard for me to get motivated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
The machines make great clothes racks right now.
Thanks for the post and I hope things get better for you!
Rock

I read about the 6-month thing, too, and wondered if that's what my problems were all about.

Rock, you asked earlier about putting a link in your post or sig line. Here's how:
1) Find the thread you want to link to then select and copy the URL from the Address bar.
2) Go to the place you want to add the post with the link (a thread you want to post in or your profile to put it in your signature).
3) If it's in a post, don't use the Quick Reply window - you need to click the Reply button in the header of the post to get to the advanced post creation window.
4) Just underneath the post editor, you should see an area to the right of the smilies for UBB code. Click URL. A window will pop up where you paste the URL you copied earlier, then another window appears where you enter the text you want to make into the link, e.g. My Story.
So, the link will look like this in the post editor (but with square brackets instead of the curly ones) - {url=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?Cat=0}MAIN PAGE{/url} - but like this in the post -
MAIN PAGE

Thanks DH59.

Hmmm, I may be taking a break here. I don’t know. I came home today with a copy of a post that I read here. It wasn’t even for her, it was something that I really liked and I wanted to read it again.
Then she got on my case about being on the MB site too much and how are we ever going to move forward if I keep hanging around here and never move forward.
I think maybe a teeny bit of what she says is true. Heck, in one breath she is telling me that she thinks this support is good here for me, then the next it’s terrible.
She’s even posted here and has had some of you try and reach out to her, but to no avail.
I guess she wants me to just sweep it under the rug like she has. I’m not sure what to really do at this point.
Maybe I’ll just chalk this up as a bad night and see how tomorrow goes.

Rock, I'm sorry. I have been just lurking the past couple of days myself till I saw your post tonight. My situation is the same but it's weird because I'm the FWW and it's my FBH that thinks I'm overdoing MB. He is the one who doesn't want R/M talk. I don't know why he seems to be over it and I'm still trying to figure it all out. Sometimes I think maybe I am overthinking and then when he doesn't want to talk I wonder if we will be able to have the kind of marriage I had always hoped for.

Maybe your wife is reacting that way because your recovery is a trigger for her, so to speak. Every time you talk about MB or have that post for example, it's a reminder to her of what she's done to you and how you haven't gotten over it (and still hurting). I've realized that about my DH, and hurt is expressed as anger sometimes.

Aren't you at about the six month mark? That's a typical time for problems to develop. I'm at about the year mark and a month ago I would've said we were pretty much recovered, but for some reason, maybe because of hitting the year mark or not, I feel like I/we've backslidden.

Anyway, a good nights' sleep can do wonders.

Maybe taking some time to focus on something you like doing for you, just for a little while, isn't such a bad idea. Go see a movie, or read a book that has absolutely nothing to do with infidelity, marriage, etc...!

Hope things look brighter in the morning.

MAZ

Thanks MAZ. I've noticed you've been laying low. Thanks for popping out for me.
I know that me being here sometimes upsets her. Although I have evenasked her about it and she told me that she was ok with it. I guess I can understand if the situations were reversed. I think that seeing me constantly seeking support might bring her down or make her feel guilty. I can respect that. All in all, like I said in an earlier post, she has showed me some compassion and sometimes generally seems to care about how I'm feeling. I'm not used to that and it's hard to accept. I think just like it's hard for her to accept me showing my feelings because I rarely did. We both have to learn to accept these changes in each other.
She has been good, but for some reason I seem to somewhat reject the attention for some reason. I'm an idiot,I think.

I know that lately it's been hard for me to fight off the awful thoughts and visions that have been plagueing me. SHe will pay me a compliment and all I will think is "then why did you need him" or something along that line.
Thanks for the pick-me-up MAZ.
Rock

Rock, my H also thought that my coming on MB was holding up our recovery, and I did stay away for a couple of days to test this theory, but I was still having the mood swings and getting upset, so I started coming back again. I think he now knows that I am gaining some support here and so no longer makes that judgement. It is the only support I have, as we have not pursued counselling, and H admits that he is not the best person to be advising me!

I sometimes send H a link to a thread that I think says what's on my mind and he does read them, although we haven't had any long discussions about the content. At least he is prepared to read them. I am not so sure that he would come on here and post though.

I think perhaps we can read too much into a person's actions, and I am trying really hard not to jump to conclusions about what H may or may not be thinking - something I have been very prone do in the past. I am beginning to think he really is not trying to sweep it under the carpet, as I previously assumed. It's just his normal, pragmatic attitude.

Surprisingly, the 'visions' have more or less gone now. Not quite sure why or how. Just doesn't seem to bother me as much as it did to begin with. I suppose my 'mind over matter' exercises are starting to have some effect.

Hang in there, Rock.

I sit here and throw my troubles out into the internet to people I don’t even know. Is this it? Just dying for any words of condolences or reassurance. I throw my troubles into the pool of heartbroken souls. Looking for a kind word from someone who is in anguish like me or probably worse.
I look back and ask God why do I deserve this? I am a simple man. A man who adores his wife, a dad who loves his two little girls and his little boy up in Heaven.
I will not give up on my wife. I owe this to my family. My son would want me to try and keep things together. To take care of his mommy. I already feel sorry for the girls. They don’t need to be going through this. I’m sure they know something isn’t quite right.
Why should this be so hard? It will be 18 years this August that we stood before God, each other, and our friends and family and vowed to be together through good times and bad. I never dreamed that we would have so much “bad”. We both failed miserably in the forsaking others department. I don’t understand it.
I remember when I broke my vows many years ago. I was so disappointed in myself, and still am. I fell into a terrible sin. I never dreamed that I could do that. The devil, I thought, was laughing with delight. I knew that I would keep my guard up against further attacks. As the years went on though, my guard was down. He crept in and got to my wife. Always trying to destroy marriages. (Hope I didn’t scare any non-believers) I’m not a religious wacko, sometimes I just look at it for what it is. A sin.
It’s almost to the point where it’s beyond her infidelity. There is just no love there. I don’t know when it got so bad. My wife used to adore me. I’ve never experienced the awful feeling of being unloved.
I try to think about at what point that it happened. When did I lose my wonderful wife? I guess a few years ago. I can’t put my finger on it.
She is constantly depressed and I cannot seem to help her. She is always worried about looking so good. To me she is the most beautiful woman in the world. Yet, she doesn’t care what I think. It’s much more important to her to turn the head of a construction worker or someone driving by.
I never thought that she could be like this, do these things to me or just plain not care about me. Today we went to church and when I wasn’t around she told my daughter that she is tired of living in a cage and she needs some alone time away from me.
I don’t understand the comments. What cage? I don’t do anything.
Time to try and chalk this up as another bad day.
Thanks for listening to Rock-the nutcase and his pity party again.
Rock

Rock,

I read what you have posted, and I think you should print out this last post and give it to your W. She needs to know what you think and feel, and the good thing is that this post is really about you more than her.

I would also mention to her, what you over heard. Do it when you are not mad, but talk with her about this. Sometimes people need to know they CAN go, even if we don't want them to. Sometimes people do go, even when we don't want them to.

Isn't it time you started to dream again? Isn't time you started to plan for your future? Isn't time, that you started looking toward some good things in your life? If you want to draw your W back in, you need to take what you have learned and use it to make life something worth smiling about. And then start to smile.

Rock, nothing is going to change what happened. Only you can change what will happen in your life. Please think about that.

God Bless,

JL

I want to dream about the future. I'm just stuck in this rut right now. It's hard to see beyond that. I just don't know how to get to that point.
Yesterday was awful. She had this bad attitude, then at bed time she initiated SF. She keeps me so confused. I think she likes that. SHe hates me, she loves me. I really think we need some good MC. But she won't go for it. She had some IC years ago (MC too), but now her old counselor no longer councels and she says that she doesn't feel like rehashing all of her history to someone else all over again.
I will keep plugging along. Thanks for the advice.
Rock

Hang in there. You are going through the necessary grieving about what could have been and what actually is. That is a normal part of healing.

As for the SF, that is very promising. Ask some of the other men here, and I'm sure they would be happy, whether or not their wife was awful all day.

I know, I kind of feel bad for revealing that. Actually the SF is harder for me than her. It's hard to fight the trigger of thinking of her doing that with someone else while it happens. SF for me now is like I am always under the pressure to out perform OM.

Rock, the SF thing was hard for me, too, at first, and I would burst into tears. It is bound to be harder for you than your wife, but it will get better. You just have to concentrate and 'be there'.

This SF issue is why I don't want more graphic details, then I don't really know what to compete with and I can just be myself, with a little extra than before thrown in for good measure!

You WILL get there.

Rock,

I'm so sorry. It was not appropriate for her to say that to your daughter.

The cage she is in is of her own making. Obviously she is unhappy, she is depressed and she doesn't know what to do to change it. I have felt that way as long as I can remember and so what gets blamed? The most likely suspect, her marriage. Unfortunately, she is making the same mistake I always have and unfortunately still do.

What she doesn't realize is that even if she leaves the cage containing you, her cage will always be with her. Changing the external doesn't change the internal, only she can do that.

That I know.

How to do it? Haven't got a clue to that one myself.

Hang in there,

MAZ

Hi MAZ, thanks for the post.
Now today she says that she was just in a bad mood. I really don't understand her cage comment and her overall feeling gof always being trapped or whatever. It seems everyday it is something. After D-day she told me that she would like to start going to church as a family every week, but now she doesn't. I don't want to make her do something she doesn't want to. It was her idea. She said that I will probably never let her go out shopping by herself again so she can be alone. That is not true. I told her that I really don't believe that she is going to run out and see OM. I told her that I know that I have to trust her again.

This morning we had a little discussion about her self esteem. I told her that it hurts me because no matter what I tell her what I think of her that it really doesn't matter to her. She always thinks she is over weight, needs liposuction or a boob job, etc. It is ridiculous. She is about *' **'' and weighs less than ***lbs. Very attractive too, I might add. Well, unfortunately for me, I suppose.
She told me that she doesn't want to get old. I told her that I wish she would maybe get some IC for her low self esteem. She has a lot of issues about her past.
Thanks for the responses!
Rock

She doesn't want to get old???

Is she nuts? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Old is a state of mind, not an age. Right now she is acting OLD, when she reverses that cranial transplant, she will find becoming more...mature (thats the word) is really pretty cool. Kids are launched, and you can go visit them, but more importantly the pressure starts to let off.

Tell that little woman (and she is tiny, I mean really tiny) that she will relish many things about becoming mature, including her H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Getting old...hrrrumph!

JL

Hmmm, maybe I should go back and edit that post that has her size. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Rock,

Women and self esteem. Now that's a topic.

My oldest daughter is very small. They estimate she will be about 4'11'' at the most when grown. I'm trying very hard to make sure that it doesn't become a self confidence problem for her. There have been plenty of kids who told her she's too small to be 11. Yes, that can certainly mess up a gal.

But jeez, I'm 5'5" on a good day and weigh...well...a bit more than Mrs. R. Always have had weight issues and the subsequent lack of confidence. OM2 preferred women such as I, that was a big confidence booster for me.

Sounds to me like she is having a bit of mid life crisis with some self esteem issues for added interest. Reminds me a lot of me now that I think of it.

I think IC would be great for her. I think it would be great for me but I understand her hesitation. I'm not feeling great about discussing all of this face to face with a stranger.

I'm at a point, much like Mrs. R. I think, where I don't know what else to do.

Did you ever mention whether either one of you are on ADs?

My wife has always been self contious(sp) about her physical appearance. As a child she moved around quite a bit and had to constantly attend different schools and try to fit in. A very unstable childhood.
She married me, I had an affair, we had our son die, the OW whom she forgave and made friends with deserted her, she had a misscarriage, we declared bankruptcy, she dealt with some alchohol issues and her dad disowned her for some unknown rerason. Then she had her 3 affairs and has to deal with that.
I would love for her to get some IC or even some MC. She claims that she doesn't want to go through her whole life again with some new therapist. I guess I can't make her.
I've got her to post here, but she says she doesn't know what to say. She doesn't read any books and says that they won't help her. I've gotten her to go to church and have tried an approach of faith, but she says she is mad at God for taking her son. She really won't talk to me much about her feelings and such.
Oh and to answer your AD question, yes, she has been taking ADs for quite some time now, probably about 8 years.
Thanks for the support. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Rock

I definately think that is what it is. She so much hates the thought of getting older. I guess the affairs helpede make her feel that she is still desireable. During that phase she had gotten 2 tattoos, piercings (not that I am against it) it was just not the way she really was. I think it was a real midlife thing.
It's so frustrating because she is right here and I think that she is a wonderful and beautiful woman, but she doesn't seem to care what I think. Why is she always looking at what could be instead of appreciating what she is and what she has?

Rock, this will never come to be as long as she works with 2 of the 3 OM. One OM she sees every day in the same office.

Well, maybe you are right. I don't think that working with OM1 is changing anything. (Here we go again). I guess then that I will have to just take what I can get then. She works with OM1, that's just how it is. I'll have to deal with that. OM3 is nearby but somewhat easy to avoid. She tells me she is. I hope she's not lying.
Speaking of OM3, I have the urge to go down there and bust him in the mouth right now. I don't know why. Oh well. This shall pass.
Rock

Rock - it is not about the OM, it is about your wife and you.

You need to call Steve H and get a plan to help you along.

On to my next thought. Tonight I am sitting here thinking about OM3. I try not to think of him much.
I was just thinking how odd it is that this jerk waltzes into my life, has sex with my wife, gets busted and just gets to move on. No consequences whatsoever. He is single so I can't expose him to anyone.
I could have maybe gotten him in trouble with his employer because I'm sure that his employer would frown upon their employees having sex on the company property after hours.
Normally I just don't think about him because I just want to concentrate on my wife and my marriage.
Lately I have been feeling, I don't know, vengeful or something. I also hav ethe urge just to go down and have another look at him for some reason.
I remember the time when I did have a email discussion with him. He told me that he didn't force my wife to do anything that she didn't want to do.
Gee, what an honorable gentleman. Gosh, please accept my apology Mr. [censored]. I'm sure you hitting on my wife for years had nothing to do with anything.
I'm sure he's off working on his next conquest now anyway. It's nice that my FWW is just another notch on his bedpost. She told me that he flirted with every woman that walked by. So I asked her didn't that tell you what kind of jerk this guy was and she said that she looked beyond that. WTF?
Well, I just needed to vent about OM3 tonight. DOn't even get me started on OM2.
Thanks for listening to my venting. I don't know why, but for some reason this jerk is bugging me for some reason. I know that I have to just let it go as far as he is concerned. I just want some kind of justice. I guess he will have to face his maker someday. I dunno.

RB,

Contacting Steve Harley will help alleviate so much of your pain here and help you work through this. Really worth it!!!

I see no relief from the pain. It's like a huge weight constantly on my shoulders. I am weak. I suck.
Why did she choose to do this to me? This is just incredible. Sometimes I have to just stand back and maybe laugh at it. Unbelievable. I feel like my arms are full and I am trying to hold my whole world together.
I need a big shot of Hope.
Love hurts. Arrgh.

Know why you feel like this?
.
.
.
.
6 month mark. You are at 6 months from dday and this becomes a hard part for BS. Read up on it. There are some posts on the recovery board that talk about it.

SUSHD.

What about calling Steve H?

I'll do a little research. Today I feel like a new man though. Bring it on!!
Thanks for the DSUSH!
Rock

Rock, You are the one that IS holding it together. A weak man would have fled from the hard choices that you made to rebuild and protect your family. As the man, the father, the husband you own the responsibility to protect your family and you are doing just that.

A weak man would have a "revenge" affair.
A weak man would quit.
A weak man would not confront his fears and move forward anyway.
A weak man couldn't do what you have already done.

Thanks GameFace. I really needed that.

You were already recovered but maybe it'll help next time. I don't think I have it nearly as bad as you, but I still get that way.

So why hasn't Mrs Rock agreed to NC? Do you need to go to PlanB? If not yet how long? What do the Harleys say?

How do I know if I'm getting the truth? She has admitted (well, only because she got caught) to a PA with OM3, but denies any PA with OM1 or OM2. I have been checking into things and am starting to get curious about her maybe not telling me the truth about what happened with OM1 and OM2. Do I demand the truth (is that even possible) or do I just take her word and disregard my thoughts on the subject.
I hate not knowing the truth. How do I deal with not knowing the whole story? How can I really get the honest to God truth? Do I need the truth?
I always had told her that I don't want her to try and "protect" me. I just want the truth so I can deal with. I hardly ever got any confessions it was usually just her admitting to things that I found out.
Am I too far along (6 months) into recovery that it should matter. I want to know more!!!
Rock

Rock,

Let me be brutally frank with you. You know she has had affairs, all emotional at least one physical. You worry about the physical affair as most of us guys would,but the emotional ones are and were FAR more dangerous to the marriage and you.

So let's start with a FACT. You are worried about the wrong darned thing, and hence you get no relief from it. You are focused on the wrong part. You need to get her to talk about the emotional connections she had, and might still have with these men. She may be honest about that.

But, here is another fact. You know she has had "carnal" knowledge with at least one other man, does it matter with the other two??? I think not, given that the real issue was/is the emotional.

ANother fact, ALL WS's lie. Period end of story. You can TRUST that she was lying during the affair, and about the affair. Her reasons are probably many, but you KNOW this for a fact, so why keep beating on it? It is fruitless.

Now, how about now? Does she lie to you now? Will she lie in the future? Only she, you , and data can confirm this. THis is why the WS must be an open book about their actions now. If they are and if she is, you can rebuild a great deal of trust, but you will NEVER trust her 100% again. Oddly, even Dr. Harley says you should have NEVER trusted her 100% before so why try to do that now.

Look at the data, is she lying about things she is doing now? If not, rejoice and realize that there is a future, IF you are vigilant, and work on this marriage. Your gut will let you know if anything starts up again.

In some sense this is like an autoimmune disease. You are attacking yourself, and destroying yourself in the process. Back off, live today, work on tomorrow, and realize that she has lied, she has had sex with someone or ones outside of the marriage, and she has become very emotionally attached to 3 men before. Yet, YOU want this marriage, and so does she.

So if you both want this marriage,isn't it time to address this marriage and not the one you had months ago?

You two have been through some very tough times and yet here you are back together, somewhat beaten up and bruised but still together. Work from that point my friend, NOT from the point of the affair.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I see your points JL, but this is the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with before. I just had this little relapse because I came acroos some old stuff and it got me thinking. Believe me, I feel sorry for her and what she is going through also. Part of me just wants to know everything. Just lay it all out and let me take a look at it and then I can move on. I don't know.
Then again, I don't want to ruin all the progress we have made so far.
AArghhh!!!!!!!

So I should just let my thoughts, fears and feelings about the affairs go and just move on? How can that possibly be? I realize at some point that HAS to happen, but shouldn't it happen when I know that I have everything I need and then I can truly move on?
In other words you are saying what's done is done. It doesn't matter if it was another PA or not, right? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just trying to get the point.

I guess I really don't want to throw all this back in her face right now, but don't I deserve the truth about what I want to know?

Rock,

I know you are not trying to be sarcastic. You said
You answer your own question with the next line. Frankly, you don't have much choice do you? But, you are missing something I have said to you before and will say again. You will NEVER forget what has happened, just as you have not forgotten your own A. What you MUST do is forgive...YOURSELF and her.

THe problem is you fear what you cannot control, your thoughts are of things you don't know, and you somehow think that knowing everything will make it better. You already know she is a lying, cheating, secretive woman, when she is an affair. She proved that to you 3 times. Your call but to go back and try to find MORE, seems to be counter productive when what you should be find out is IF your marriage can be rebuilt, and it cannot while you are focusing on MORE information. What more do you need?

Ok, you tell me what you need to know that you don't know? You already have everything you need to know to move on from her PA or PA's. But, I doubt you do with regard to the emotional part. The problem is that too much is never enough. This is about deciding to make a go of it or not.


I not 'saying' this. IT IS A FACT. The only questions are: what are YOU going to do about it? What is she going to do about it? You need to accept that she has had sex with one or more men, she was emotionally invovled with 3 men. She violated just about all of her vows and while she was doing it, she didn't give a ...rip about the marriage. Could I be more clear or blunt? Probably not and keep my language clean. Tough medicine to swallow isn't Rock? You bet it is. This is tough stuff and it is NOT FOR WIMPS. You have done well so far, but you are missing something very important. Your future.


Hello!!!! She had a PA. She gave herself to another man for his enjoyment and hers. She liked it or she would not have done it. Does it make much difference if was 3 PA's or one??? When you get further along you will realize that you would be deliriously happy if she had 3 ONS, instead of three affairs with emotional attachment.

You are NOT just an appendage between two legs, you are far more, and her emotional affair rejected you as a whole, not just an appendage. If you want to really understand what is and was going on, learn about the emotional part of the affair. What she felt, why she felt it, what she was looking for and why? YOU need to understand those things to make a good future for you two.

I am not saying that her having a ONS is not grounds for leaving her, and if she did now, I would be telling you to do just that. What I am saying is that your future with your W depends on you understanding her EMOTIONAL needs and she understand YOURS. Further if you do, if you start to really reengage in this marriage, you might find out more than you know now. But, it will depend on her feeling that the marriage is strong enough for you two handle it and a feeling of safety on her part.

Rock, you are focussed on getting the truth. I have no problem with that. But, is it going to be HER truth, or your truth? Do you think that sweating it out of her will help you and give you confidence?

The reality is IF she decides that she wants a deep and intimate marriage with you, then she will figure out that the barriers she put up to protect yourself, and you from her will have to come down. Your job is decide if you want to try and remain married to her. I think you do. I think she wants to continue. But, Rock there is one other thing. IF she is withholding something that could be harmful to you, and you go ahead and make this marriage something great for both of you, she will pay and she will pay big time. You don't have to worry about that.

You might say, well if I don't know it ALL I would be a fool to forgive her. I will say to you, tell her what you forgive her for, and tell her you cannot forgive her for what you don't know. And leave it in her court.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

Hmmm..you tell me things that I think deep inside I already know.
____________________________________________

I not 'saying' this. IT IS A FACT. The only questions are: what are YOU going to do about it? What is she going to do about it?

I guess there is nothing I can do about it. Just like she is going to do nothing about it. I feel like I will have to "ride it out" just like a sickness and let time do it's thing. Maybe I'll just let time deaden the pain. Like all the years since my affair has done.
________________________________________________________

Tough medicine to swallow isn't Rock? You bet it is. This is tough stuff and it is NOT FOR WIMPS.

Yes, this medicine is bitter! Bleeechhh!!
_______________________________________________________

If you want to really understand what is and was going on, learn about the emotional part of the affair. What she felt, why she felt it, what she was looking for and why? YOU need to understand those things to make a good future for you two.

This would require us communicating, and I don't see that happening.
Maybe we are doomed. Either that or we will just remain in this stage forever. The pain has got me in a full headlock and I can't wrestle free.

Thanks JL. I am really taking some of this to heart. You really made some good sense there.
Rock

Rock,

It just may be that she will communicate about the emotional part because she will understand it better. She will be able to put words to her feelings better. You must understand that when people do not feel safe, or they are insecure about their understanding of something, they are very very reticent to talk about it.

Your job is to make her feel secure, but also to inquire about her feelings now and at the time. I would ask her something like this. "Mrs. Rock, now that you have months to consider all of this, and face all of my hard questions, how have your feelings changed about things?"

Start with that. As she answers, continue "I'm a bit confused you said *****, but I am not sure what it means. Could you help me?"

Make it about yourself because... it is! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Ask from the point of view of NOW, and then seek projection forward in time and backward in time. Trust me if you understand her feelings at the time of the A, her feelings now, and what she hopes her feelings will be in the future, you will KNOW ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. You may never get to quite that point, but not only do you need to strive for this, so does she.

You can bring her here again and I will tell her that. It is a FACT.

God Bless,

JL

Post deleted by rockbottom06

Well Rock,

If you understand her so well, then you don't need to ask any more questions do you?

Think about it, why did she choose these guys? It wasn't the size of their appendage was it? It was something emotional. Perhaps she felt no connection but was attracted, thus it was safe. Perhaps she felt more than she has said, and the PA was the last thing on the "to do" list.

I don't know and neither do you, but what you need to know is how she felt at that time about the marriage, herself, and you. IF you get her to tell you about these things you will have a much better idea about the role of the OM at that time.

Here's the point. I have work to do, and we can debate this forever, but eventually you are going to have to live with what you got or think you will get. Your call, your life, your marriage, your W. The woman cheated on you, and she was looking to. It was not an accident. Does she feel the way she did then, NOW?

Focus on the ball Rock. Keep your eye on the ball.

God Bless,

JL

I have nothing to debate about JL. Your posts have given me a lot to think about and also a different way to look at things. The honesty kind of stings, but it is what it is.
Thank you for taking the time to share some wisdom with me. I'm gonna work on some things that you told me I should.
Thanks again.
Rock

You are right JL. I don't understand her very well. Hardly at all really. I try to. That's why I want to ask questions.I guess it's all about me asking ther right questions. I just feel so lost and confused.
I am going to try to write some questions down that she might at least try to answer for me. I guess that I could at least try.
Rock

Rock,I am also a FWW spouse and having a very bad day like you!My situation dosen't seem to be getting any better either and I feel your pain!Today was one of those days I wanted to call it quits,but thanks to my mom I made it through another day!And you're right about the hurt,I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy,but I hope that it will all be worth it in the end!As my mom so wisely put it"it will get better,and good things come to those who wait!"I just wish I didn't have to wait so long!LOL!Keep your head up!

I had a bit of a breakthrough last night, after a few days of being quite down. I have been thinking about this 'questioning' issue and wondering, in light of what others have said here, whether this is what I need to do, but shying away from it in case I am upset by the answers. I have had some questions answered, and some quite recently have eased my mind somewhat. But there are little niggles keep coming back and I wondered whether to just go for it and ask.

Anyway, last night I was reading 'Not Just Friends' and skipped forward to skim-read a later chapter, where I read something about questions to ask about the A. My eyes landed on a paragraph which says that if you're the type who researches diseases on the Internet and knows more about it than your doctor, or you spend six months researching before you buy a camera, then you are likely to be the type to want all the nitty-gritty. I could really see myself there!!

So, I mentioned it to H this morning, and he says we should do this, but he is worried that I don't really know WHAT questions to ask, so has told me to think about it over the weekend and he will answer whatever it takes - he just wants me to feel better. I am now going to relax and have a pleasant Easter weekend (four days off work) and keep away from all this A stuff for a few days - to give us both a bit of a break.

Thanks for the kind words jksmith!

Glad to hear DH59. I hope that you find what you need to get you over the hump and moving forward. It's great that your H is willing to do what it takes to help you. That means SO much.
As for me, my FWW doesn't want to talk and I'm too afraid to ask. Good luck to you!
Rock

I'm sorry your wife is not willing to help you in this way. I already feel as if a weight has been lifted from my shoulders, just knowing that we are going to get to the bottom of what's causing my depression (well, hopefully!).

I can really recommend that book. I've read one or two others, but this one seems to be very good.

Take care.

I've heard of it.
Heck, I already have
*His Needs, Her Needs
*Surviving An Affair
*Torn Asunder
and a couple others that I can't think of at the moment.

If you reccomend that one, I'll probably try that one too. Make sure that you keep me updated as to of how your Q&A session goes. Thanks.
Rock

I know the feeling, Rock. I have read three or four books on the subject already, and a raft of others yet to read on relationships. But I was recommended Not Just Friends, and thought what can it hurt to read another!! H thinks I'm after the Holy Grail, as they all say more or less the same thing, which is also more or less what's said on MB, but there are different ways of saying the same thing, and one way might mean something to one person and another way might hit the mark with someone else.

I will keep you updated, don't worry.

I didn't get my SUSHD M2L. I could have used it.

FWW surprised me today with a weekend getaway! The weekend of the 21st we are going to a nice B&B with no kids! Yay! We've been there before (much happier circumstances). It is going to be so nice to have some alone together time.
I hope I don't blow it somehow.
I just wanted to share my nice surprise.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You hope you don't blow it - then don't. You know the areas to stay away from. I for one would not expect too much of anything. Without these expectations you won't be let down. On the other hand you may be surprised with what happens.


no SUSHD my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> This is hard stuff to go thru and I don't want to keep slapping you around because of it.

Rock, that sounds like it will be a great break for you. Don't worry about blowing it - just try and enjoy yourself. Things like this have helped me enormously - makes new memories to think back on, rather than A thoughts.

Oh, I will. The evil Rock says: "Ha ha, I will have her for the whole weekend alone, now I can badger her to death"!
Just kidding. I'm going to just enjoy it for what it is. We'll see how it goes.

Hey Dh59, I purchased the book this weekend and started reading it. So far it's very good. It makes lots of sense. A really good read.

Well, remember when I said in one of my posts that I hope I didn't blow my weekend getaway? Well, I already seemed to. Mrs. Rock read my post where I was joking and said now I can badger her all weekend. She didn't find it humorous at all. See how I mess things up?
Oh well, just a little update.
Rock

Hi Rock, glad you think the book is good. I am getting through it quite quickly now - about half way.

Oh dear, that's not good, but surely she could see it was said jokingly!!

My update is that I've been on such a high all weekend, that I'm not even sure I want to go through the questions now!! If I can maintain this good mood, I think we're onto a winner. H keeps looking at me thinking I have to crack at any moment, and I'm so stubborn (my old self coming back) that I'm not giving him (or me) that satisfaction. I'll have another think about the questions when I get to the appropriate chapter in the book and read it in more detail.

Take care, and hope you can recover from this little setback.

She tends to only see the bad things I write. It's frustrating. I'm glad you are doing so well. Hopefully my rollercoaster ride is back on the upswing.
I'm just so tired of the emotional battle. Maybe I can go see a hypnotist and get him to make me forget everything that has happened.
Thanks for the post.
Rock

O.k., here's today's dilema. A few months ago I dropped off a letter to OM2 just to tell him what a scumbag I thought he was. (you may remember in a earlier post). A week or so later I got an email from him telling me that my FWW was the aggressor and pursued him. He threatened to get a restraining order on me and possibly charge me for slander.
I was so shook up at recieving this news and info about my FWW that I sent him an apolgy telling him that maybe I jumped the gun and I should have gotten more info from my FWW before I confronted him.
Well now I feel like a jerk because I actually apologized to this jerk. I kind of want to tell him that I want to take back my apology. My FWW said that she almost wrote him to tell him off (that would have been great and a great moral booster for me). Should I just let it go? WHat do you think?
Rock

Here's a copy of an unfinished note I started to write but never sent:
_____________________
I’ve been thinking. I know that it’s just a waste of my time to even try and talk any sense with you. I know that something went on between you and *****. That is a fact. As far as to what extent, that remains a mystery to me. I have heard two different sides of the story. I’m afraid that I will most likely never know the whole truth. Some time ago I wrote you a letter because I wanted to just at least let you know that I was aware that something indeed did go on. I admit that I probably did not go about it very well. I should have done it differently. I think that I was hoping that maybe you would have been man enough to at least admit that there were some things that went on that were inappropriate and maybe even possibly an apology. That would have sufficient for me and I would just move on.
Instead you decided to threaten me with restraining orders and charges of slander. I guess that’s how you handle things. Even though in no way did I ever threaten you or wish any ill will towards your business. Why you had to go in that direction, I don’t know. I guess I wasn’t expecting a response like that. I know that my wife did some dumb things and admitted to some bad decisions concerning what happened. I feel though that you making yourself out to be this highly moral person who had or wanted nothing to do with her is ridiculous. Most of your statements didn’t make a whole lot of sense to me nor did I find any of it relevant to the situation that I thought that I was addressing.

Rock Rock Rock,

I have not read your letter and I'm not going to either. Don't bother sending it. OM could give a crap about you and how you feel. Don't waist your time.

Pick your fights Rock. You want to come out the "winner" here? Live a good life with a loving wife. You are with your wife now, not OM 1,2, or3.

Move on and work on bigger issues.

By sending a letter to OM you give him too much power. Power that he is not worthy of my friend.

Ditto everything M2L said. It accomplishes nothing except lets him know you're still bothered. What do you hope to gain. He's going to admit he's a sleaze and beg for forgiveness? In the last communication btw OM2 and DH, OM2 stated that he could have me if he wanted but he would respect my wishes to remain with my family. I was irate! I wanted to tell him off bigtime. DH said the best revenge was to get on with our lives.

None of us are ever going to get the "closure" we want. It just isn't possible. Moving on is the best thing we all can do.

I hope Mrs. R understood that you were joking about your badgering comment...and I hope that you two do enjoy your weekend together and refrain from A talk!

Rock, sometimes I get accused of looking for problems where there doesn't need to be any. You wouldn't know anything about that wouldya? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hope all else is well.

MAZ

You two are right on. I think I just pop in here to get straightened back out sometimes. Thank you.

LOL Rock!

You know how it is. We all need someone else's perspective.

See, that's about what I get or how I feel these other guys thought. To a certain extent they did have her. I hope she feels irrate too.
Anyway, I can't keep dwelling on these scumbags.

Yes, Rock, worrying about the OM and what he does or doesn't think is really not worth it. I, too, got into an email exchange with OW, where she tried to justify what she did, and she then started her own backlash, sending even more emails to my H that appeared to be fishing for sympathy. No amount of reasoning with these people will get you anywhere.

I think, perhaps, you may have been wrapped up in some sort of obsession with OP, just like I was, which is holding up your recovery. I think that part of my recent 'epiphany' was that I have finally decided to let go of the anger towards OW, which was also partly spilling over towards my H, when he was trying to repair what he'd done, making it appear that I wasn't appreciating it. I was, at one point, frantically searching the Internet for proof that she was a scammer out to trap an unsuspecting British man for marriage, trying to find out her home and work address to expose her to all and sundry, etc. Complete waste of time and energy, and the constant thoughts and imaginings made me quite ill.

Concentrate on what your W is doing now to help you, tell her what else she can do, if anything, to help you move forward. If she cares, she will help you. Stay calm, dignified and serene and you will show yourself to be the better man.

Take care.

How are you doing MAZ? I wondered if you were still lurking out there. It's nice to know that I got you to pop in and post to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks.
Kinda like my guardian angel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I hope things are going well. I am reading Not "Just Friends" right now. It's helping me a lot. Have you read that one?
Rock

LOL, you're making me laugh...

"endless drivel" that's an apt description of my threads...!...and...if I'm your guardian angel, you seriously need a replacement!

I'm doing well, thanks. Been real busy work wise with the holiday weekend so I haven't been around as much, but this week is slowing down. I am suscribed to a bunch of threads so I keep up even if I don't have time to post right away. I have not read the book you mentioned. I am reading a book "It's all in your head: thinking your way to happiness" by Pollan. It's really good. I have a gotten a lot out of it. One quote in particular I'm going to add to my signature when I get the book out of my car and can quote it verbatim. Something about the pursuit for happiness is often a great cause of unhappiness...the book said it better though.

I've been posting to a book recommendation thread and everytime I come across a good book or one is mentioned in a post I add it there. Someday I plan to read every book on that thread. Check it out sometime and see if there are any good ones that aren't already listed.

I imagine the Easter bunny visited your dd's? What did he (she? it? lol) bring?


MAZ

I think I 've done more reading in the past six months than I have in years. I really don't know what I'm looking for but it seems to keep my mind occupied.
I will have to check out your book thread.
The weather here is horrible. We're supposed to get some snow tonight.
Yes, the Easter Bunny visited us. I think the girls are just coming down from their sugar buzz now. Take care!
Rock

Well MAZ,
tonight was my bad night. She's been being very good lately, well actually it's been a rollercoaster and she even admits it. We think it may be her ADs that she's on. I'm not sure.
Anyway, we laid inbed and tried to discuss things. I tried to question her about maybe having some emotional bonds to maybe OM3. She denied any. It got ugly at times. I admit that I even may have dropped a LB or two. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
She just can't imagine what I still might want to know, etc. We talked about our past and she told me that she felt that we got married too young. She always has this notion that she forced me to get married to her and nothing could be further from the truth.
She told me that we never spent much time together when we were first married. I told her that I was sorry that I made her feel that way and if I could go back I would have done things differerntly by showing her how important she really was to me. She felt that she was always second fiddle to my family.
We went on and on. I told her that I haven't felt that I have been loved for a few years now. She told me that maybe she wanted me to leave her. I told her that I didn't want that. She told me that she has built walls up around her for fear of disappointments.
It wasn't pretty at times, but I tried to keep it calm. I thanked her for at least making the effort to talk to me and that I appreciated it.
Just a little update. I told her that I would love to get some MC.
I love my wife. Is there something wrong about that?

Post deleted by rockbottom06

Rock,

Yes, I am out here for a few minutes. Been doing the taxes. It is going to be brutal writing the check this year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think you missed something in your talk. I think you BOTH are missing something. I have said it before and I will say it again. The past is to learn from not to recreate.

Your discussion about how she felt she married too young is a classic example. First, you have to accept that she felt and feels this way. Second, accept that she saw your actions in those days as not supporting her love for you.

So what did you learn? You should have learned from this conversation what you should do in the future so that she doesn't say "Rock we stayed married too old." How? You accept her feelings, you accept that you two have a future together, and you talk about HOW YOU can make her feel loved, enjoyed, respected, and appreciated.

You can accept her views of the past and learn from them. Their validity is not as important as that they are there. The point is what are you going to do now. With some luck you two have 40+ more years of marriage. In short you are barely 1/3 of the way through. Isn't it time you started to plan to enjoy it????

With regard to her walls. I think you can acknowledge that they are there right. Something you both agree on. You could observe that she is not very happy suggesting that those walls are hurting HER. What you want is to have her in your life and for her to be happy with you, AND you happy with her. The walls are hurting you both, and they are not protecting her from the pain of life are they.

Laughing, loving, trusting, and helping are FAR BETTER protections from what ails her and you. So why don't you two discuss what it would take for her to remove those walls. What is it you would like to find behind them and how would you treat her if she came out? Talk about this for awhile.

You can avoid LB's if you are in this to learn and grow. Then you listen, you absorb, you don't have to agree. But, the things you disagree with most are very likely to be your OPPORTUNITIES to turn this around.

Rock, it is time for an attitude adjustment. You are in this to learn, grow, enjoy your family, your W, and your life. Start making plans to do that, and see if she will join you in these plans. It could start out with something as simple and yes stupid has having to kiss one another 3 times a day. Plus, one big hard hug a day. And some smiles.

In college I had a football coach who used to yell at me, when I blew a play: "D*** boy do something wrong, right once in your life." It took me awhile to figure that out, but it has stuck with me for over 40 years.

You are afraid of being hurt so you are just standing there watching the play happen. she is afraid of being hurt and she is just standing there watching. If you two would do something with the idea of making your lives more fun, better, and enjoyable, it is bound to be better even if it is wrong, than doing NOTHING.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for the response JL. You must be a night owl. Everything is just so frustrating. It seems almost impossible for us to communicate. I really don’t know what to do. I want to get through all this. I want to heal. I’m not sure what she wants. We can never talk about it. She just gets all defensive and goes off on me about how I think that I am better than her. Stuff like that. I’m told about what a terrible husband I was, how I was so mean to her when we dated. All kinds of stuff like that. She tells me that maybe she wants me to leave.
I don’t know. I see three options.
1. Sticking to my guns and fighting for my marriage. We have two wonderful daughters that I want to maintain a stable life for. Plus I do love my wife. I always have and I don’t ever see myself not being in love with her. Do the right thing and continue to work on my marriage.
2. Just accept that things will never get better, try to just accept that my wife had these affairs and basically just exist together and go through the motions for the sake of our kids.
3. She says she might want me to leave. This one’s odd. What am I suppose to do, just pack up and leave? I don’t really know if this is something I could do. That would be really odd. I guess it’s still an option though.
It all seems like it’s back to foggy-talk sometimes. I don’t know if it’s her way of dealing with things. I’m not sure.

Rock, I can really feel what you're going through. I am really glad that my H was able to come out of his fog so quickly. I do hope your W soon comes round to being able to listen to your pain and help you through this, whether this is through talking together or counselling.

All I can say to you is keep your chin up! (Not sure if you have that saying over your side of the pond)

Rock,

you keep going around and around with this crap.

Two things my friend.

#1. things will not get better for good until your wife no longer has contact with any of the OM. I know the so called reasons of why this is not a good idea - I have heard them. Do you two want a good M or a M that is stuck in this rut, but still a good job? You can have both, but it will take work maybe even moving. Right about now I don't think Mich looks too good with the snow.

#2. I have said this many times - call Steve H and get his help. You and the Mrs call him.

Yes DH, we "chin up" over here too. Lol. Thanks for the encouragement. I hope things are going well for you. Thanks.

Yes M2L. I'm on the merry-go-round from ******. Weeeeeeeee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well, another bad day. I’m getting tired of spinning my wheels. I am definitely stuck in a rut. I have to start looking at things in a different way. It’s obvious that my FWW won’t talk or discuss things with me. Maybe I should just learn to deal with never knowing why this ever happened or a lot of other questions I have. I know there are many secrets that she must be keeping from me. Maybe someday she will share. Until then I guess I have to just know that she has to live with those things.
Maybe I should just be grateful for the many years of happiness that she gave me before all of this happened. She gave me the best years of my life. These horrible incidents can never take those away from me.
All I feel that I can do now is be the best husband and father that I can be. I will fight my demons every day and try and make the best of it and just hope that time will heal my wounds. I feel so alone on my recovery effort. I don’t know. Maybe I am stuck in this rut feeling sorry for myself. I don’t know.
One minute she tells me she loves me, the next day she tells me I should give up. I guess for now she is here with me and I should just be happy about that.

RB,

Sorry for your down day. Think we need a cheer-up song. The Harley's can help you up!!!


Great Big Sea

When I'm Up (I can't get down)

Rock,

Spinning wheels and ruts seem to be popular these days, huh?

I'm sorry. It s*cks to feel like you're the only one working on your M.

My H runs hot and cold too, not about whether we should be M'd but just in his jekyll/hyde behavior.

It's draining, one day you have hope, the next you're wondering why you're even there. In fact, sometimes it changes hour to hour.

I don't have any great words of wisdom for you today. All I can tell you is that I feel for you; we are unfortunately in the same boat.

Hopefully Monday will bring something better for both of us.

I would but I can't afford it at the moment.

Is there ever really true healing? I don't see it. I don't know how it is possible. I guess I can only see healing if FWS and BS to join forces and work at it together. Instead of my healing all I can see is how strong I can be at dealing with things, and that's a b****.

Rock...

I clicked on your thread because of the latest title..."drivel"...and then I saw MAZ reinforce your choice.

You wanna feel differently than you do right now?

Change your beliefs.

Up your boundaries around yourself...

Including...not stating your stuff is drivel. It isn't. You choosing not to change your beliefs means you can't change your life...by choosing to live from your beliefs...

instead of your emotions.

This is about your personal recovery...which cannot be done if your focus is on WW's thoughts, changing desires, statments...feelings...HER stuff.

You got your own.

Doesn't look to me like you're owning your own stuff...which is where change begins in a huge way.

To self-DJ "drivel"...is to allow others to define you as well...choose not to...you aren't drivel, your feelings aren't drivel, nothing about you is drivel....

Unless you choose that to live from.

Choose differently.

Make different choices...have a different life experience.

Choose to own your own goal to save your marriage...entirely...no reactivity when she muses, "Maybe I want you to leave"...listen and repeat. You're not going anywhere. By choice. Your choice.

You're teaching your DDs how to live here...you want them to live in highest honesty, healthy boundaries and from their authentic selves? You do it.

There is no humility in DJs...putting yourself down does not make you lower...it makes you fake and self-abusive...and what you'll do to yourself, you'll do to others.

Focus on YOUR stuff...it's vast and complex...get to know what you lived from, your false payoffs and your real ones...when you change your choices, everything changes.

I said much of the same lies to my BH about thinking I could make him marry me...that I was just convenient...all the blah blah blah fantasy stuff in my marital history rewrite. Listen and repeat it to her with choice inserted...which is bringing reality:

"I hear you believe you chose to marry too young after dating for seven years, is that correct?"

And

"I hear you chose to feel very left out, unimportant and taken advantage of...and I hear you. I am experiecing that perspective right now. I know if I choose to see this about you, your choices and not suck myself into your stuff...then I won't experience those emotions now. I will feel sorrow, which is healing, and act to connect through respect."

I dunno..making stuff up...you are gonna hurt, Rock...no need to spin your wheels or choose this rut, toots. Make different choices...do O&H drive bys...DO NOT LB...not to get her to treat you differently...so you don't slam yourself, which is what we do when we LB...we drain our own love banks, which are often, very low to begin with...then we feel done to...taken of advantage of and unimportant.

We can stop any time...through our focus...goal of clarity, not decision...and when we get there, we make clear decisions.

LA

No offense, Rock, but why the h*ll are you talking about these things right now? These things can be discussed towards the end of recovery. Right now I would keep things fun and light until the love banks are at the romantic threshold again. This might take a year. It's been almost six months since my WW ended her affair and almost 3 months since last contact, and we still don't have SF and she refuses to talk about the A. Just keep plugging along. She'll talk about the A when she's ready to. If you try and force it before she's ready it will come across as a LB. Get a sitter and schedule a date, plan a family trip to the zoo, plan a romantic weekend with NO expectations. Court your wife back. Dr. Harley says the average recovery time from an affair is TWO YEARS! You are just about 1/4 of the way there. Recovery is HARD. Slow and steady wins the race.

Rock,

Just to clarify re: LA's comments...

When I made a comment about your drivel title and how my stuff felt like drivel to me...I wasn't stating your stuff was drivel.

I was commiserating. My way of saying I understood how you feel right now because I felt the same way. Not saying that was reality for either of us.

k?

Thanks LA and jmwc.
You both made sense.
LA, as far as my self-abuse, that's just my natural feeling. I have always felt unimportant. This betrayal has brought me down to a whole new level. It's hard to climb out of this hole and feel good about myself. I'm gonna try though.
jmwc, this Saturday FWW and I are going on a romantic weekend retreat. No kids, just FWW and I. A waterbed, a fireplace, a hot tub and a chilled bottle of champagne. I think it's gonna be great!
Thanks again,
Rock

Oh, it's cool MAZ. I know what you meant. No offense, besides, I don't even know what commiserating means. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> We're kind of on the same wavelength. I hope things are going well for you.
Take care,
Rock

I love all those R's, Rock...'cuz that's how I laugh sometimes...ar ar ar ar.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

So JL or LA,
I think I understand about not worrying about FWWs stuff (her thoughts, feelings, etc.) at least I think I do. Am I supposed to be just concentrating on myself and not worrying about A stuff right now? Do I wait for her to talk on her own time? I get no input from her. I try to figure out why this happened or as JL suggested, to try and understand the emotional ties to these guys. I get NO response. I'm not saying that she isn't treating me well. It's just frustrating that she just wants to act like nothing happened. I guess in my perfect world scenario she would sit me down and tell me that she loves me and is so sorry for hurting me so bad and would tell me that she will do anything to work on our marriage. She would maybe seek counseling, read some books, write me some notes and even post here. I guess I'm only dreaming.
One other thing. Do you have any tips on how I can somehow stop dwelling on thinking about my FWW having sex with this guy? All these sick scenarios keep replaying in my head. It is so depressing and hurts so much.

Hi, Rock.

Quote:
==================================
Do you have any tips on how I can somehow stop dwelling on thinking about my FWW having sex with this guy? All these sick scenarios keep replaying in my head. It is so depressing and hurts so much.
==================================

I'm not JL or LA, but if you don't mind, let me ask you a question. What part of her having sex with this guy really sticks in your craw?

God bless,
Gimble

Hmmm...what part. I would think probably the whole dang thing. I keep thinking of what happened, how it happened. It's like a porno movie running in my head starring my FWW and OM. Blech.

Rock wrote:
=========================================
Hmmm...what part. I would think probably the whole dang thing. I keep thinking of what happened, how it happened. It's like a porno movie running in my head starring my FWW and OM. Blech.
=========================================

Okay.

The best method I have come across in dealing with the "loop" is demystification. Once you take away the mystery, then you are only left with the truth.

Have you come to terms with the fact that they had sex and that they liked it?

The truth is that whatever really happened, in all likelihood, isn't as bad as the idea of what happened makes you feel. In other words, if you could watch it as a porn movie, it probably wouldn't be a very good one. They didn't do anything earth shattering. Besides that, there are really only so many things that you can do, variations on a theme excepted.

The "magic" of their sex was how they felt about themselves during the act. Other than that, it was just sex.

The real trick to dealing with the sex is to first face the truth, they liked it, then replace whatever image you have devised in your brain to represent the idea of their encounters, with something of equal value. What I mean by that is this; Since you can't know what they did (unless you have tapes), then there is no way your "loops" can be accurate. Since your "loops" are fantasy, why not replace it with something that you at least find amusing. Maybe two rhinos going at it, whatever you like.

In time, you can simply replace the images with the truth. They had sex and they liked it, big deal. You have had sex and liked it too.

Is this making any sense to you?

Gimble

Yes, it kind of makes sense. Like JL once told me "it's a bitter pill to swallow".

Rock wrote:
==========================================
Yes, it kind of makes sense. Like JL once told me "it's a bitter pill to swallow".
==========================================

JL is exactly correct.

At least you can use a bit of humor to make the medicine go down. In the long run, acceptance will win out. You still won't like it. You never will, but it won't be such a big deal.

You will be okay.

God bless,
Gimble

Thanks Gimble. This is gonna take a while.

Rock,

I am going to reply to several your posts in pieces.

You said
Ok, Rock read the part in bold. If you always have felt unimportant, then why is this A bothering you? Sounds like a stupid question, but it is really the issue. Whether you are or are not important is NOT up to your W. It never has been and it isn't now. Your importance has to do with YOU doing your best, being good to other people, taking good care of you kids, doing your best at your job, being the best H you can be.

You are handing her something she cannot do. She cannot make you feel important, ONLY YOU CAN DO THAT. You importance or lack of it has NOTHING TO DO WITH HER A. I mean NOTHING.

Your get away WILL be great IF you decide it will. It really has nothing to do with her really. You get some time off, you are going to smile, enjoy the wine, the hot tub, the fireplace. If she enjoys it as well....Great. If she decides to be romantic so much the better. If she does not, then enjoy yourself anyway.

Young man, you need to be comfortable in your own skin. This A has little to nothing to do with you. It was her choice to have it. It was her choice to end it. It was YOUR choice to try and rebuild the marriage. Face it, but face it with certainty that this marriage would NOT have been as far as it is, IF you did not give her a chance.

I will respond your other comments in separate posts.

God Bless,

JL

Rock,

You next say This is going to sound very harsh. Yes you are supposed to be concentrating on you, and meeting her needs. Her responses to you BEST effort are NOT of your concern and you will see why in a moment. Focus on smiling, enjoying, listening, hearing, smelling, seeing what is around you and that includes her.


You don't care about her ties to the other guy. Ultimately what you want to know is WHY or more importantly you want HER to know why so that she can protect HER boundaries. You are not going to be able to protect HER boundaries, so quit worrying about it.

Consider this: If she had a firm boundary to not cheat, then
she could not have cheated and felt it was OK as long as you did not know. Why? Because she knew and SHE is the one whose boundary she ran over. She made a promise to herself on wedding day to be faithful, she stated it to you, but it was a promise to HERSELF. Get that, HERSELF. She violated HER promise to HERSELF. Are you seeing why you cannot fix this, only she can? All you can do is offer her a relationship that she finds rewarding. Or at least do the best you can.

Here's the part you are not going to like. IF in the next year or so, she has done nothing to ease your worries, to give you some trust, to make this marriage something YOU enjoy, YOU ARE GOING TO LEAVE HER. Do you hear? You don't have to put up with it, the vows have been broken. You don't have an affair, you leave and file for divorce.

You are missing a very important thing. You can walk away and you should walk away IF she does not meet you somewhere in the middle. Just as it is your job to meet her needs, it is her job to meet yours, and if you are not happy, then the solution is not an affair it is to leave. You can only do what you can do. That is what we are telling you.

You give this marriage its best chance of survival by meeting her needs, using plan A during the A, and being the best husband and father you can be. If after that you are not happy, if you are still looking over your shoulder in fear that she will have another one...you leave.

You have nothing to fear. You have and are giving this your best chance. If it is not good enough for her you will know, and you leave. If her efforts are not good enough for you, you will know and you walk away. These are not threats, these are real consequences to the decisions made by both of you individually.

You want her to hang in there, then be someone she enjoys being around. If you never get what you want to make you feel comfortable in this marriage, you walk.

It is simple my friend, it is just not easy. ONce you realize you can walk, you will realize that you are only PART of this, she is the other part. She has a job to do as well.

Darned if I know, but I do know if she does not do enough to give you confidence in this marriage over a period of time. If she cannot at least apologize for what she has done, then you need to be gone. But, be aware that her language for doing this may NOT be yours. And here is where meeting needs as the spouse would like them is important to understand. It is really her call, and you are her's to lose.

No, not really. Everything I have read says it takes time, and it takes recovery. It takes replacing the images of them, with the images of you two. If you are happy with her and the marriage, I think the thoughts will fade. Until you are, you will beat yourself up with them.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Rock, sorry to see you're still struggling with this. I know it takes time to come to terms with all this stuff, but you are getting some excellent advice from the others here. I can only sit here and sympathise with you and hope that you come through it soon.

I suppose I am getting a bit more help from my H than you appear to be getting from your W, but it may just be her way - not that she's trying to 'brush it under the rug' - just like this was at first with my H, but he did soon take note of what I needed him to do and he started doing it, despite him feeling bad whenever I was upset. He just understood that in order for me to recover, he had to take some rough times too.

Coming up to Easter I decided that I would spend one day at a time being happy and cheerful, forcing myself into non-A thoughts, and see if this could be maintained over the holiday weekend, in order to give us both a break from this doom and gloom. It appeared to work, I felt on top of the World, and have managed to maintain it ever since. Sometimes it feels very strange - that I am acting as if nothing happened - and I feel as if I am going to come back down with a bump. But I must have (eventually) come to realise that the way I was behaving meant that I was not very nice to be with, and I knew that for things to change, then I have to change (Jim Rohn), so I did. One day at a time.

Why ruminate over what you think they did or didn't do, or what they felt? Why put yourself through that torture, because that's what it is, I know that, and I didn't want to carry on that way - it was making me ill. She may, at some later date, be willing to talk, but give her time and work on yourself first. I would suggest talking with her before you set off for your weekend away, and reassure her that you are not going to talk about the A, you are going to enjoy your time together, and that you intend to move on to a better level. Sometimes verbally stating these things, with conviction, makes them come to fruition. Sort of puts a new picture in your brain and then your brain takes it on board. While ever you are feeding it negatives, negatives is what comes out. That's more or less how I overcame the bad thoughts.

It does at first feel that you shouldn't be doing that, that really they should be suffering a bit more for what they did, so that they REALLY know that they messed up, but that's just crazy thoughts. Sometimes this is all subconscious - not that you are purposely making them suffer - it just feels wrong, somehow, that they get the peaceful life after causing so much heartache, and you are left with the depression and misery. But if you want to heal, then listen to JL and start thinking about YOU.

Take care, and have a lovely weekend.

Thank you both for your input. It all makes perfect sense. It's just hard. I will do what I can. I know that when I am down and out and depressed that I am not really someone she wants to be around. I hate that. I guess I have to be the one to step up and take it to the next level. Thanks for the support. If you think of anything else, please keep it coming. You guys really boost my spirits!

It is hard, VERY hard, as I remember it was for me up to less than a couple of weeks ago. But you will get there. It just takes a little effort to move up a level. Once you make a little progress, concentrate on that and don't be dragged back by more crazy thoughts. I know that sometimes it feels as if you will never get out of this pit of despair, but really all you have to do is make a little effort to begin with and then it will become second nature.

Just try it for your weekend away, and see how different it feels. Fight your impulse to dwell on things that you might never understand, and actually try to pretend nothing has happened. It will feel weird, but I find I can now think A thoughts and move them on much quicker instead of letting them get to me. I haven't even asked my list of questions yet, and I'm now not sure if I even want to. And I have stopped the tablets to help my mood (you have to have a break after three months), and I am not sure I will need them again, although I did have a menopausal moment yesterday, so maybe I will take them for that!! H is still looking at me occasionally expecting me to crack, asking how I am doing. I just smile sweetly and say I am doing very well!! That's not to say I don't still think about the A, but it's very peripheral now.

Keep yer chin up!!

That's great DH. I see your PA D-day is about the same as mine. So that's encouraging.

Rock,

About the A images...

Like Gimble and DH59 said...get to what you're thinking, what you're believing...

and choose your thoughts.

Just like the rest of our stuff, we have this choice...where our thoughts dwell. Your brain will hand you images you don't want now...because you wrestled, examined, dwelled in them before...your own brain thinks that what you want...

When you catch an image, let it go and say to yourself, "That's not what I want"...and replace it with an image of you and her...because that's real...that's now.

Our brains don't know time...and they don't know reality from fantasy. If you can catch where your thoughts are within ten seconds, and choose differently, you will NOT have the corresponding terrible signals (feelings) associated with that thought. You won't. Takes time to retrieve the emotionally tagged to image stuff...comes from different parts of our brain...so if you are highly aware...not fearful...aware...then you can cut down a lot of the painful reactions...through choice.

You really can.

This isn't shirting it...it's dealing with a brain who thinks you want to stay mired where you have no control...A's aren't in the BS's control...and we often obsess to give us the feeling we are...and we aren't.

Hardest part of those images for me was when DH and I were making love...and I shared this with DH...and we POJA'd that when they flew in, I'd speak of them, right then. And I did. Gosh, that was really hard. After a couple of times, that was it...the images left.

You want your FWW to help you in healing...are you giving her these opportunities? Sharing to help yourself, with her? I had to own my triggers...say them aloud...own the corresponding feelings as mine...and share...information, not condemnation. Went a long way to my brain knowing what I really did control and what I didn't...and me saying, "I don't want that" to what I didn't. Brains are marvelous...they hand us what we want...they pass on signals, retrieve, store and are like these incredible butlers with child-like innocence.

Up to us to determine what we really want.

Not distracting ourselves...teaching ourselves...sharing internally...and choosing our lives, in our own power...embracing our limits.

You can do this...and you can do it aloud...share along the way. "I have this wishful desire to hear you sharing your remorse, your thoughts, your feelings with me, as if it will erase and cure me, magically, of all the pain I have inside. I know that's not real...takes time...intent...and I know my sharing is just as important in my healing as yours."

Get to your truth and know it...then share it. Makes this a journey shared...not enmeshed and not co-dependent. No one can cause, control or cure you...except you. And you can't be that to anyone else. Not in our human design. Let God's brilliance be part of your experience today. Know and share...strive to understand, then be understood...and share your wholeness.

JL is the one who brought me the truth when I couldn't tell the difference...heeding his words, all of them, was the best choice I think I ever made in my entire life. Take heart, choose hope, God is bringing you all you need to recover...and respects it as your choice, nonetheless.

LA

Amazing LA. I think I'm going to print some of this great advice and keep it in my pocket so I can pull it out and read it now and then during the day. Thank God for you and the others here who are helping me. Thank God for MB too.

Rock,

You're worth every keystroke and you're welcome.

You are feeling right now what I began to feel over two years ago...because Pepperband and JL and others were there for me. This truly does go around and around...enhances our lives and growth as much as it does yours. I promise.

I felt as if I'd been living a tunnel life...and hearing others' perspective, sharing from their experiences, opened an opportunity for experiencing life abundantly. Keeps going...on and on...around and around...

All because you chose to act bravely and share...what a world.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Post deleted by rockbottom06

What did I miss? Dang. There was a post and then there wasn't.

Talk about triggering my inner child, Rock.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LA

Drats!

Could you tell if it was from Rock, LA?

They are supposed to be enjoying their weekend getaway...I sure hope nothing happened....I'm really pullin' for them.

MAZ

LA,

I have the deleted post. I received it in an email via my subscribed threads. I don't understand why he would have deleted it, it was very positive and hopeful.

I sure as heck hope nothing happened!! Shoot!

Hey MAZ,
You have my permission if you want to put my post back here that I deleted. Sometimes I get in a mood where I just feel like writing, then I go back and look at it and think "Eh, everyone's gonna think this is stupid" and I delete it.
Such is the case with my last deleted post. It just talked about how much I was looking forward to our weekend and how much I love my wife...... Put it back here if you would.
I read your post and I am really happy that your H agreed to some MC. I really think that is great!! I also see that LA gave you some good advise also.
Well, we are back from out weekend getaway. It was very nice. We both enjoyed it very much. I kept LBs to a minimum. It sure was nice to get away from the kids for a couple of nights at least.
My MIL picked up the girls Friday after work. FWW and I went to a local place for dinner, came home and chilled.
We left for our getaway early Saturday afternoon.
Here's a funny story. We stopped on the way up there for lunch at my favorite hot dog joint. In the restaurant was this candy crane game so I gave it a shot. I scooped up some candy and when I bent down to retrieve it from the machine my pants ripped! A big 'ol rip on my butt. I had only packed some sweats besides what I was wearing. Ha ha. We had to stop at a store down the road and go in and get me a new pair. We thought that was funny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
We drove fro about 3 hours and got to the place. Checked in and both crashed an the bed for a couple of hours. Then we went downstairs to have dinner. First though we visited their wine cellar for some wine tasting. I'm not a big wine drinker, but I have to say some of those were really good.

We picked one that we liked and bought a bottle of it to go with our dinner. The dinner was delicious! The best piece of steak I had in a long time. We had a nice dinner. M & R talk came up a little, but it was o.k.
Then we went back to the room with what was left of our wine and we soaked in the hot tub for a little. FWW, being so tiny, has a low tolerance for the wine so she got a little romantic and badda boom baada bing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

We woke up and went for breakfast, checked out and drove home. The weather here is beautiful right now. I would give this weekend a big thumbs up.
I think a lot of our problems are we never had any alone time since kids entered our lives. It was good to at least for a little while, get back to the basics of her and I. We mesh very well together.
I thanked her for giving us this weekend together and that I really appreciated it.
Thanks for listening!
Rock

As per your request, here is your FDP (formerly deleted post). LOL

Rock said....

Rock, this is a place to share anything, good and bad. And...I'm so glad that the weekend was everything you hoped it would be, badda-bing included, LOL!!

Heck, there was even some badda bing at MAZ's house too. Not a bad weekend all around!

Good job, Mr. and Mrs. Rock!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Rock, glad to hear the weekend was a success.

Badda bing here too!! Must be catching.

Welcome to the BB club DH! Sounds like a pretty good weekend all around! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Somebody tell me a joke or something please.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Just received this from my friend, who's male. He sends them most days. If you need any more, I have pages of them in my email box!!

Fall Classes for Men at THE ADULT LEARNING CENTER

REGISTRATION MUST BE COMPLETED
by Monday, Aug 30, 2007

NOTE: DUE TO THE COMPLEXITY AND DIFFICULTY LEVEL OF THEIR CONTENTS, CLASS SIZES WILL BE LIMITED TO 8 PARTICIPANTS MAXIMUM.

Class 1:
How To Fill Up The Ice Cube Trays - Step by Step, with Slide Presentation. Meets 4 weeks, Monday and Wednesday for 2 hours beginning at 7:00 PM.

Class 2:
The Toilet Paper Roll - Does It Change Itself? Round Table Discussion.
Meets 2 weeks, Saturday 12:00 for 2 hours.

Class 3:
Is It Possible To Urinate Using The Technique Of Lifting The Seat and Avoiding The Floor, Walls and Nearby Bathtub? Group Practice.
Meets 4 weeks, Saturday 10:00 PM for 2 hours.

Class 4:
Fundamental Differences Between The Laundry Hamper and The Floor - Pictures and Explanatory Graphics.
Meets Saturdays at 2:00 PM for 3 weeks

Class 5:
Dinner Dishes - Can They Levitate and Fly Into The Kitchen Sink? Examples on Video.
Meets 4 weeks, Tuesday and Thursday for 2 hours beginning at 7:00 PM

Class 6:
Loss Of Identity - Losing The Remote To Your Significant Other. Help Line Support and Support Groups.
Meets 4 Weeks, Friday and Sunday 7:00 PM

Class 7:
Learning How To Find Things - Starting With Looking In The Right Places And Not Turning The House Upside Down While Screaming.
Open Forum. Monday at 8:00 PM, 2 hours

Class 8:
Health Watch - Bringing Her Flowers Is Not Harmful To Your Health. Graphics and Audio Tapes.
Three nights; Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 7:00 PM for 2 hours.

Class 9:
Real Men Ask For Directions When Lost - Real Life Testimonials.
Tuesdays at 6:00 PM Location to be determined.

Class 10:
Is It Genetically Impossible To Sit Quietly While She Parallel Parks? Driving Simulations.
4 weeks, Saturday's noon, 2 hours.

Class 11:
Learning to Live - Basic Differences Between Mother and Wife. Online Classes and role-playing.
Tuesdays at 7:00 PM, location to be determined.

Class 12:
How to be the Ideal Shopping Companion. Relaxation Exercises, Meditation and Breathing Techniques.
Meets 4 weeks, Tuesday and Thursday for 2 hours beginning at 7:00 PM.

Class 13:
How to Fight Cerebral Atrophy - Remembering Birthdays, Anniversaries and Other Important Dates and Calling When You're Going To Be Late. Cerebral Shock Therapy Sessions and Full Lobotomies Offered.
Three nights, Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 7:00 PM for 2 hours.

Class 14:
The Stove/Oven - What It Is and How It Is Used. Live Demonstration.
Tuesdays at 6:00 PM, location to be determined.

Upon completion of any of the above courses, diplomas will be issued to the survivors.

Send this to all the guys that you think can stand the heat, and to all the ladies for the best chuckle of their day!

Good one DH59!
I was kinda down tonight.

I think I'm gonna sign up for class #3, maybe #10 too!

Rock, sorry to hear that you are feeling down. I was sometimes a bit that way after being cheerful the previous day, as if making up for being cheerful when I think I shouldn't be, albeit subconsciously. I altered my thinking on that one, forcing myself to think of those happy times we've created since d-day, instead of all the stuff that caused the misery. Anyway, here's another funny.

These are genuine clips from letters sent to the Council Housing Department......(This is British – referring to the Council Housing occupants who pay rent to the local council, who in turn are responsible for property maintenance)

1. My bush is really overgrown round the front and my back passage has fungus growing on it.

2. He's got this huge tool that vibrates the whole house and I just can't take it anymore.

3. It's the dog mess that I find hard to swallow.

4. I want some repairs done to my cooker as it has backfired and burnt my knob off.

5. I wish to complain that my father hurt his ankle very badly when he put his foot in the hole in his back passage.

6. And their 18 year old son is continually banging his balls against my fence.

7. I wish to report that the tiles are missing from the outside toilet roof. I think it was bad wind the other night that blew them off.

8. My lavatory seat is cracked, where do I stand?

9. Will you please send someone to mend the garden path. My wife tripped and fell on it yesterday and now she is pregnant.

10. I request permission to remove my drawers in the kitchen.

11. 50% of the wall are damp, 50% have crumbling plaster and 50 % are just plain filthy.

12. I am still having problems with smoke in my drawers.

13. The toilet is blocked and we cannot bath the children until it is cleared.

14. Will you please send a man to look at my water, it is a funny colour and not fit to drink.

15. Our lavatory seat is broken in half and is now in three pieces.

16. The man next door has a large erection in the back garden, which is unsightly and dangerous.

17. Our kitchen floor is damp. We have two children and would like a third so please send someone round to do something about it.

18. I am a single woman living in a downstairs flat [apartment] and would you please do something about the noise made by the man on top of me every night.

19. Please send a man with the right tool to finish the job and satisfy my wife.

20. I have had the Clerk of Works down on the floor six times but still I have no satisfaction.

21. This is to let you know that our lavatory seat is broke and we can't get BBC2.

Sometimes I get confused about what I AM feeling and how I SHOULD be feeling. I don't know. It's confusing.
I'm sure that makes no sense whatsoever.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I think I was a little confused when I made that last post! It was pretty much what you've said in your reply - but is it confusion, or is it some inbuilt (subconscious) notion that you SHOULD be feeling a certain way because of what has happened to you? Therefore you hold yourself back from happiness, enjoyment, satisfaction, or whatever because you shouldn't be feeling those emotions at all under the circumstances? I know that's just about how I felt, but I was unable to lift myself out of that feeling, until I made a conscious decision to do so. How do you feel you SHOULD be feeling?

I reached the decision that I wanted to stay with my H and so I really needed to do something to make him want to stay with me, rather than me moping around being miserable. I still have my down days, but this is now more to do with my fluctuating hormonal situation (menopause!!), which I suppose compounded my depression about the A as well. In fact, it was the shock of discovering the EA that plunged me into the menopause, I feel.

I am taking some natural mood enhancers, which do help, as I didn't want to take prescription meds. If you are not taking any ADs at the moment, it might be an idea to see about getting something to help you get a clearer head. The ones I had from my doctor were OK, but gave me side-effects similar to the menopausal symptoms I'd just managed to alleviate!! So I stopped them and went the natural route. Just a thought you might like to consider.

It's strange. I always thought that I had control over my feelings. I had everything in check, so to speak, but since this nuclear bomb blew up in my lap the emotions are just flying around. I feel like I'm in a big snow globe that someone just shook up. Lol.
I think in a way I am still in some state of shock about everything. I battle with terrible thoughts where I am trying to fill in blanks about things I don't know about.
I know that I have to get a handle on things. I know I'm not helping things by just moping around a lot of the time.
Day by day I guess.

RB,

How did your meat-loafs turn out? Did you try any new recipes?

Maybe you might need to play some of your favorite CD's/meatloaf tunes.

It's OK....it's allowed! DH 59~ Those were hilarious laughs!!!

Re-Posting the lyrics to your orginal favorite songs...


Here's a great one for FWS like me. It's by Hoobastank, it's called "The Reason". It's awesome.

The Reason

I'm not a perfect person
as many things I wish I didn't do
but I continue learning
I never meant to do those things to you
and so I have to say before I go
that I just want you to know

I've found a reason for me
to change who I used to be
a reason to start over new
and the reason is you

I'm sorry that I hurt you
it's something I must live with everyday
and all the pain I put you through
I wish that I could take it all away
and be the one who catches all your tears
that's why I need you to hear

I've found a resaon for me
to change who I used to be
a reason to start over new
and the reason is you
and the reason is you
and the reason is you
and the reason is you

I'm not a perfect person
I never meant to do those things to you
and so I have to say before I go
that I just want you to know

I've found a reason for me
to change who I used to be
a reason to start over new
and the reason is you

I've found a reason to show
a side of me you didn't know
a reason for all that I do
and the reason is you

Thanks sky! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

RB~~Veeeeeri Welcome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So r u telling me " a no go" with the meatloaf? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Random Joke...

Things to ponder??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.


For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.


No one is listening until you make a mistake.(Aint' that the truth!)


If cats and dogs didn't have fur would we still pet them?


If peanut butter cookies are made from peanut butter, then what are Girl Scout cookies made out of?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No I didn't try the recipes. Someday. I'm not much of a cook.

RB--1 more 4 ya. A chuckle...laughin at ourselves... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


The aspiring psychiatrists were attending their first class on emotional extremes.


"Just to establish some parameters," said the professor to the student from Arkansas, "What is the opposite of joy?"


"Sadness," said the student.


And the opposite of depression?" he asked of the young lady from Oklahoma.


"Elation," said she.


"And you sir," he said to the young man from Texas, "how about the opposite of woe?"


The Texan replied, "Sir, I believe that would be giddy-up."

Rock, it might be an idea to look into some anti-depressants, if you haven't already. You can get some that don't make you all fuzzy-brained. It might just help you to straighten out your thoughts. As I said, the prescription ones I had gave me some unwelcome side-effects, but had I not been in meno as well, I may have continued with them, as they did help. They're called Sertraline (Zoloft in US), and they are in the group known as SSRIs. At the moment, I'm taking Seratone 5-HTP, which has a similar effect, but does not have all the side effects of the prescription meds. Some do have an effect on libido, though, in that it is reduced, so be very careful. I think Wellbutrin is one that doesn't have this effect, in fact it supposedly increases libido.

Thanks DH. I was actually prescribed some generic xanax for my anxiety attacks I was having, but I never took them. I think I heard too many bad things about addiction and stuff. I'm not a big pill taker. Even when I'm sick I usually tend to just "ride it out" so to speak. It drives my wife nuts.
Just "riding this out" seems to be a lot tougher. Thanks for the advice though.

Rock, I don't think you have anxiety, I think it's depression. Xanax is a hypnotic and a sedative type of drug, and you need something that will not depress your system. The SSRIs do not act in this way. I felt more able to cope in the short time I took the prescription Sertraline, but the 5-HTP is just as good, but without the side-effects. That's not to say you would get those same side-effects if you took the same ADs, but there are others to choose from. You will not get addicted. You may only need them for a short while.

I'm not a big pill taker, either, usually, and I more often go down the natural remedy route, but have agreed to try HRT for a short time. I am now glad I am taking it.

RB,

Ok, cooking recipes just may be not your thing right now. Maybe next wk. We'll try it again.

Thinking about you...Maybe sum inspiration...Have a great day...


Rocky 111 Training Montage

Rock, hope you're OK. Here's something else to keep you amused.


Not a lot of people know that!!

1. Coca-Cola was originally green.
2. The most common name in the world is Mohammed.
3. The name of all the continents end with the same letter that they start with.
4. The strongest muscle in the body is the tongue.
5. There are two credit cards for every person in the United States.
6. TYPEWRITER is the longest word that can be made using the letters only on one row of the keyboard.
7. Women blink nearly twice as much as men!
8. You can't kill yourself by holding your breath.
9. It is impossible to lick your elbow.
10. People say "Bless you" when you sneeze because when you sneeze, your heart stops for a millisecond.
11. It is physically impossible for pigs to look up into the sky.
12. The "sixth sick sheik's sixth sheep's sick" is said to be the toughest tongue twister in the English language.
13. If you sneeze too hard, you can fracture a rib. If you try to suppress a sneeze, you can rupture a blood vessel in your head or neck and die.
14. Each king in a deck of playing cards represents great king from history.
Spades - King David
Clubs - Alexander the Great
Hearts – Charlemagne
Diamonds - Julius Caesar
15. 111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321
16. If a statue of a person in the park on a horse has both front legs in the air, the person died in battle. If the horse has one front leg in the air, the person died as a result of wounds received in battle. If the horse has a all four legs on the ground, the person died of natural causes.
17 What do bullet proof vests, fire escapes, windshield wipers and laser printers all have in common?
Ans. – All invented by women.
18. Question - This is the only food that doesn't spoil. What is this?
Ans. – Honey.
19. A crocodile cannot stick its tongue out.
20. A snail can sleep for three years.
21. All polar bears are left handed.
22. American Airlines saved $40,000 in 1987 by eliminating one olive from each salad served in first-class.
23. Butterflies taste with their feet.
24. Elephants are the only animals that can't jump.
25. In the last 4000 years, no new animals have been domesticated.
26. On average, people fear spiders more than they do death.
27. Shakespeare invented the word 'assassination' and 'bump'.
28. Stewardesses is the longest word typed with only the left hand.
29. The ant always falls over on its right side when intoxicated.
30. The electric chair was invented by a dentist.
31. The human heart creates enough pressure when it pumps out to the body to squirt blood 30 feet.
32. Rats multiply so quickly that in 18 months, two rats could have over million descendants.
33. Wearing headphones for just an hour will increase the bacteria in your ear by 700 times.
34. The cigarette lighter was invented before the match.
35. Like fingerprints, everyone's tongue print is different.
36. And finally 99% of people who read this will try to lick their elbow.

Thanks guys.

Post deleted by rockbottom06

Rock, I've just re-read this thread from the beginning, and I think you should, too. This rollercoaster is what every other BS on here has experienced, and it does get better - keep that thought uppermost.

One or two things stand out to me, as they are things I've also had to deal with. They may or may not resonate with how you think:
1) You seem to impart a certain importance to your W's emotions about the OM, and their sexual prowess, and your visualisations of the SF that occurred.
2) That you want your W to come to you full of remorse and genuine apologies, and for her to think badly of the OM.

These things have taken a back seat in my mind, as it was self-defeating to keep beating myself up with these thoughts. I know the SF happened - I haven't wanted to go into detail of how, etc, as some on MB have. At first I thought that our recovery should be going the same way as everyone else's - then realised it wasn't going to do that, so accepted the way it has gone. I have some understanding of how H reached the point of wanting some closeness from a woman, as I had not given him that for some time. All I can do is make our own SF as good as it can be for us both. I know he had an emotional connection with OW (and she an even greater one to H, due to her unhappy marriage and needy personality), so I couldn't force him to instantly dislike her. I have to live with the possibility that he probably still thinks something of her. I have to let that go, otherwise why bother? Acceptance of certain issues is the key.

I did write some questions to my H a while ago and he answered very thoroughly, although some of it was pure justification and blame, which did upset me greatly, almost causing us to cancel our 25th wedding anniversary trip back in January. He followed this up with another note expressing remorse and apologising and promising to support me in rebuilding our relationship. I almost had to prise this out of him, though. He did not quite see it. It took lots of conversations (some unpleasant ones at that) and tears and sleepless nights to get to that point, but it has been more downhill since then. I do have some more questions, but these have been put on hold for now. We go on holiday next week and I don't want a repeat of the anniversary episode! Writing them down appears to have lessened the need to ask them.

Also, I can't make my H behave like the other WS on here who 'step up to the plate' and I think you may also need to accept that your W is probably not going to do that, at least not yet.

Keep reading that book - or skip forwards. There is something later on about forgiveness that may help you. We have managed without counselling, but I really feel that you two may need something a bit more than you are doing. Learning to communicate better would be high on my priority list if I were in your shoes.

Take care.

Thanks DH for taking the time to reread my posts and for taking the time to help me. I appreciate it. This roller coaster I'm on isn't a daily ride, it seems like an hourly ride. SOmetimes during the day I am very strong and sometimes I get really down. I'm gonna let your post sink in a litle and respond a bit later. Thank you so much.
Rock

Well, I'm not sure how much help it is giving you. I'm only relating how I did what I've done. I'm not saying I have it all plain sailing either - I had a bit of a bad day yesterday, for one reason or another. Probably the hormones, although a non-A question I posed (about our SF) was answered with a little lack of enthusiasm! Although we had just woken up and H was half asleep still, so I shouldn't really have reacted as I did. I will blame the hormones!!

I feel that you can make it, and I think you need to concentrate on the things your W HAS done, rather than on what she's not doing. At least she has been here and posted - my H would never even dream of doing that. And she did arrange your recent weekend break, so something must be right somewhere.

Another good book is How Can I Forgive You, by Janis Spring - which talks about self-forgiveness too. I found that and her other book, After the Affair, very good. Along with Not Just Friends, I would say they are the ones that helped me the most. I had a couple more, but they were a bit superficial.

Well, recently I have apologized to my FWW for anything that I may have done to cause her to make some bad decisions or anything to push her into that direction. I have taken responsibility for my part.
I have been talking a lot with MAZ and she has helped me very much.
This all still hurts like heck. With spring being here and summer moving closer. All the triggers are going to be coming on..
Eh, I don't know what I'm trying to say.

Glad you are getting some help. It does hurt, I agree, and I have been taking a bit of a backslide myself this week. Could be the stress of our upcoming holiday. We leave on Thursday for sunnier climes for two weeks, but I'm twitched up like crazy with all the packing and preparing. I just want to be there without all this hassle and having to think. Or it could be that it's trigger time for me, too.

I, too, apologised for any part I had to play in our 'downfall' but made it clear that this in no way excused what he did. Lately my thoughts about the affair have not been bringing the tears and upset that they did in the beginning, but other thoughts are driving me mad at times. Such as what a complete waste of a life I've had, making sacrifices (personal and career) for H all along the way, and that, not being too happy in the marriage about 8-9 years in, I should have high-tailed it then - it would have saved myself all this current grief. Just rambling thoughts that keep me occupied on the sleepless nights!!

Take care.

Hey DH, sorry you've been kind of down. Your comment about wasting your life kind of stuck out at me.
I don't feel like I've wasted my life, but this sure has made me look back and question a lot of things. I tend to look back and wonder what was real and what wasn't. It's like you have to learn who your WS really is once again. You look for the part of the WS that you really believed that they were. I am still in shock that my FWW had it in her to do such a terrible thing. It's easy for me, I think, as a FWH to look at it and wonder what was she thinking? Why did she want to do this to me, her family and even herself.
I guess I can't break away from that.
Take care DH.
Rock

I think it was very admirable of you to make that apology. It should mean a awful lot. Not that your responsible for her A's but for admitting your part in the state of the M prior, that's a big step.

Take it day by day. I know Ace had a good thread about Triggers somewhere if you want to dig for it, lol!

Anytime you need to, just post here. I never know what I'm trying to say half the time either...

Thanks MAZ, I just know that I am not a very strong emotional person. I think if I was that this would be much easier. I guess though, that I've made it this far, so that must mean something.
Thanks.

Rock,

I think the very nature of sticking around and trying to work things out with someone who has hurt you so deeply is a very strong and courageous thing to do. In my opinion, it would be easier to give in to pride and leave, than to stay and go through the pain that's required for recovery.

My DH has mentioned that he felt he lost all his dignity but I feel just the opposite. I have more respect for him because he didn't cut and run, even though he had every right too.

You've kept your family together under one roof. Be proud of that.

-MAZ-,

Pay attention to what your H is saying about his dignity. It is a very crucial part of healing and hard for the BS to address.

I am not sure how you should address such a conversation, but I would ask him, if he mentions it again, to express to you how he sees himself after all of this. My bet??? He does not respect himself for what he feels is allowing his love for you to overcome "good sense". He feels that was a "weak" decision. You know us guys, being weak is not a good thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Further, he fears he "knows" that he will be dumped or replaced if he fails you as an H. He KNOWS he was/is replacable in your heart.

Now whether that is true or not, these may be his feelings. If they are listen to them, validate them. Offer your view of things from YOUR perspective. Perhaps you are grateful that he remained. Perhaps you admire his ability to love you through all of this. Perhaps it is his honesty. Whatever it is, be honest but be specific about how you feel about him.

You can see Rock going through the same thing.

Must go.

JL

I can relate to this, Rock. I will try and keep this in mind myself, when I'm feeling all is lost. New mantra!! "I've made it this far - not much further to go now."

Yes I do understand that...I have told him every single time he has mentioned it, that I have more respect for him because he stayed, because he doesn't throw it in my face or use it against me. I know that is a big thing for you guys...but I do have immense respect for a man who can put his pride aside to keep his family together. That is HUGE, imo...

I can definitely relate to the feeling that you've been stripped of all of your "dignity". But sometimes I have to stop and tell myself that I am chosing the difficult path that is better for everyone (including myself) in the long run. It would be very easy to just unleash the anger and hurt; just do what would make ME feel better RIGHT NOW with no consideration to the kids or our family. So be proud of yourselves for chosing the *difficult* but dignified path. Pat yourself on the back today because you deserve it!

I came across a post that I think may be relevant to your issue with dealing with....the....big....WHY?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=3&vc=1

thanks schoolbus...

Thanks MAZ. Funny though, I just read that one before I checked here!

Ahh, I'm beginning to think there's an epidemic!

Rap with Rock?

You're tryin' to be funny aren't ya?

Hello all. Or at least you, who clicked on my thread. Just a little update on me and FWW.
Things have actually been going rather well. FWW is opening up some to me and it is starting to feel like we are on the same team sometimes. So that is good.
The only problem is that when it seems to be going good, for some reason I don't think that it should be. It's rather confusing sometimes.
All in all though I am very encouraged.

You already know the answer to this.

MAZ, please listen to what JL has said here as this is EXACTLY how I feel and would bet how most BS's (especailly men) feel.

Respect and dignity for men defines us and that is why we sometimes feel weak for not playing hardball with our WW's. It not a good feeling being second choice so you will have to CONSTATNLY assure your BH and fill his EN for admiration. Saying it once certainly won't restore his dignity.

He is probably struggling with his love for you and knowing he comprimised some core values by sticking around after being betrayed by the person he trusted the most.

HopeThisWorks,

I do totally get this. I have been aware of this for some time. I know he struggles with this, just last night there was a movie on about a woman who caught her husband cheating and she pretty much Plan A'ed herself and moved on. The WS eventually saw the strong woman she became and realized what he had lost but she wasn't going back. DH said something like, "well she didn't take him back" and I just knew he was feeling like other people would think he was wrong/weak for not bootin' me to the curb. I know DH struggles with this, thinking he is weak for the choice he made. I have been and still am trying very hard to show him that he has not made a mistake and won't regret sticking it out.

The thing is, because of what he has done, I have more respect for him than I ever did. He showed me what he's really made of. No vindictiveness, no retribution, just recovery. In my eyes his actions lent him immense dignity.

There is nothing "weak" about making the right decision to work at saving your marriage. It's been the toughest thing that I have ever done. Your husband, MAZ, must be a very strong person.
My only problem with the choice to "stick it out", is that hopefully it is worth the fight in the end. If that makes any sense. I am willing to fight for my wife and my marriage, but what am I really fighting for? Is this the person that I think she was, or is that person gone forever and I am now just fighting for the shell of the former person. I am confused.

I get where you're coming from, but from my experience, I can say you definitely will not get your former wife back.

If you both do it right, you will get the latest, greatest, new and improved version! You may have to de-bug on the way there, but the destination will be worth the travel don't you think?

Everything we go through and experience changes us forever. It's how we handle it that makes the difference. (I'm channeling LA I think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

I guess the key phrase would be "both do it right". What is doing it right? I think that doing it right might be actually talking about things, sharing feelings about things. Y'know, being there for each other. Crazy stuff like that.
Unfortunately for me I don't think that that will ever happen. My wife does not love me. I have to face the fact. I really don't understand what my role is in her life.
I'm still working on that.

Am A Rock Lyrics
» Simon & Garfunkel
(P. Simon)
A winter's day
In a deep and dark December;
I am alone,
Gazing from my window to the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Don't talk of love,
But I've heard the words before;
It's sleeping in my memory.
I won't disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

And a rock feels no pain;
And an island never cries.

I don't know that I'm in any position to hit you with a tube, but...

I want to know exactly where you got that she doesn't love you...did she say those exact words to you? I have emails from her that say just the opposite, you know!

Doing it right...that's subject to interpretation. Doing it right is doing it in a way that's productive to both of you...that allows BOTH of you to grow and heal. Doing it right doesn't mean it will be easy. Doing it right doesn't mean it won't be painful.

Doing it right is not only as YOU define it.

Last week you went from things are looking up, she's opening up, you were happy about that, which I saw...to you feeling like you couldn't/shouldn't be happy about that, to bottoming out now. Did something specific happen?

What advice have you implemented? Have you gone to IC? I'm betting you would benefit from AD's yourself. Have you written your list of questions? Have you set aside a time for M/R talk so it's not a constant/daily pressure for Mrs. R?

You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...

If nothing changes then nothing is gonna change.

I don't want to beat you up but I want you to exercise the power you have instead of giving it all away to circumstance.

Go ahead and hit me. M2L helped me in the past and he had to smack me in the head almost daily!

As far as her loving me, I think it's true. I'm just fooling myself. I'm just comfortable to her. I'll bet if you look back at her emails that you won't find any talk of her "loving me".

Nothing specific happened. Maybe it's just me expecting too much. I just feel like it will never get any better than this and it all falls on me just accepting everything.

I've gone to a few IC sessions. That didn't go well. It seemed like a waste of time. At one time I was prescribed some anti-anxiety medication. I never even took them. I did start writing down some questions. I took a lot of time to think them over. I still have some more questions concerning OM2 and OM3.
Setting a time to sit and talk seems to be a pipe dream too. Our communication is so bad that it would just turn into an argument. Besides we never have any time alone it seems.
I don't pressure her daily to talk about it. I think all in all I've been a pretty sensible betrayed husband.
It's just been tough lately. I just feel so disrespected I guess. She makes me feel worthless sometimes. I am definately not very important in her life.
Well, I could go on and on, but I will end my little pity party for now.

Rock - I suggest you take the anti-D's. I think you are doing an excellent job. You are not going to be able to go on forever carrying the whole load. I know men don't like anti-D's, but I really think they will help you figure out what needs to happen for the marriage to become better.

Wrong. But her emails were to me personally so I will not post what she said here. But I can tell you again, you are wrong.


But again, I don't understand, last week she was sharing...are you discounting that progress? What would it getting better look like to you?


Then try another one. It can be hard to find a counselor that you click with. Anti anxiety meds are not AD's. What you need is an AD and you need to take it.


Where are they? Do you have a timeline for completing them and getting them to her?


2 Full time jobs, 2 kids, no doubt. Mrs. Rock is stressed too. Enlist that MIL to babysit one night a week. Believe me, if DH and I could manage to turn around nearly 20 years of dysfunctional communication patterns you two certainly can. You can't be upset about something failing that you haven't tried, do you see?


Give some examples of what you think she does that makes you feel worthless. Why do you not feel important in her life? Do you realize these are your truths, may not be her truths and most unlikely to be The Actual Truth (go LA)....

Wrong. But her emails were to me personally so I will not post what she said here. But I can tell you again, you are wrong.

**"Aue contraire maune fraire" or something like that. Whatever that means,it just sounded good. She has told me that she has, hasn't, what really is love? I've got a hundred answers.

But again, I don't understand, last week she was sharing...are you discounting that progress? What would it getting better look like to you?

**It's probably just me. I see a little crack in the dam and I guess I just want it to burst open. I guess I have to be happy with what trickles out.

Then try another one. It can be hard to find a counselor that you click with. Anti anxiety meds are not AD's. What you need is an AD and you need to take it.

**I am stubborn. I don't have the first clue where to start looking for a counselor. Besides they cost money and I will be ok. ADs are not for me either.


Where are they? Do you have a timeline for completing them and getting them to her?

**I'm still working on them. I will give them too her soon, but I'm not really expecting any response. If I do they will probably just be lies anyways.

Give some examples of what you think she does that makes you feel worthless. Why do you not feel important in her life? Do you realize these are your truths, may not be her truths and most unlikely to be The Actual Truth (go LA)....

Well, I guess I'm can't be too important if she is seeking to have intercourse with other men. I will have to answer this one a little later. Bear with me.

Rock,

You need to suck it up, my man. Your W can't love you if you don't love yourself and she doesn't love herself. Both are probably true at this point. You have some issues that you need to deal with. By not going to an IC and not taking ADs you are saying, "Mrs. Rock, this is your problem and your fault alone. You need to fix yourself." Sorry Rock, but there are plenty of things you can improve on until your W comes around. "ADs aren't for me"? That's like saying, "I don't believe in vaccines." They are there to help you. If you can't accept help, then you really don't want it to begin with.

I'm going through many of the same struggles you are. I have my down days, and they only work to SLOW recovery. My W says, "I want FUN Jim back, not SAD Jim." Rock, the more FUN Rock your W sees and the less SAD Rock your W sees, the quicker your recovery will be. Part of her problem is feeling guilt over making you as sad and feeling worthless. How can she love you when she hates herself? It is easier not to hate herself if she doesn't have constant reminders (in the form of you being depressed) of how awful she was. Just keep plugging along, Rock. The average recovery takes TWO YEARS! You aren't even 1/3 of the way there. Keep plugging along. It will be worth it in the long run.

What about remorse Rock. Has she shown any remorse, asked your forgiveness???

Great post, Jim, I thought the above two quotes were especially on target.

I hope you don't meant 2 years per affair. I'm looking at 6 years then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Hey M2L, I see you're back around. Haven't seen you in a while. MAZ has been smacking me in the head for a while now. I still need that y'know.

Rock - you are doing fine. This stuff is hard to handle. I was away for a little while. Took the family to WDW for son's 6th bithday and 1 year dday ann. Take that EA!!!!

This crap gets better with time. Spend as much time as you can right now doing fun things as a family. Not only will your wife feel closer as a family, but you will too.

Have fun this summer. That is how I spent last summer, having as much family fun as I could along with the 15 or more hours with my wife.

Good for you M2L! Sounds like fun!
I'm sure this gets better in time. I think. I was just hoping that it would get better in time because FWW and I would work together to fix things, but I guess "in time" just means how I eventually just push all of my feelings deep inside and hide how I'm feeling. Just deal with it.
It's hard to have fun as a family right now because FWW doesn't really want to have much to do with me, it seems.
I'm just a worthless husband to her I guess.
My daughters love me, so I cling to that. At least in their eyes I am a valuable part of the family.
It's good to hear from you again.

Rock, other people have already said this, but


These are the words of a depressed person.

Alprazolam/Xanax is for anti-anxiety. Anxiety and depression are different. If you obsess over stuff, can't sleep, can't concentrate because of the mind racing--that's anxiety. That's what alprazolam is for.

You're describing depression. It's completely common for where you are. There are different meds for that, and they really help. A psychiatrist can help you get one that works for you. Zoloft (sertraline) is one that works for a lot of people.

You still have a long road ahead of you, so take advantage of whatever tools you can to make it easier.

Many people don't know when they're depressed, so recognition of the problem is the first step. You can start getting help once you admit it to yourself. Oh, wait. You already did:

Thanks for the advice sdguy. You (and everyone else) is probably right. I think that I am in denial. No disrespect to any of you on ADs, but it's hard for me to bring myself to that. I try to think of myself as being so strong. Maybe I'm not as strong as I thought that I was. I can just start crying at the drop of a hat. Heck, I'm getting a little teary eyed just as I write this.
I know that early on after D-day, I was definately experience anxiety. Sometimes I would lay in bed and just shake and shudder uncontrolably. I was presctibed some generic Xanax, but I never took it.
Now though, it just seems like a dull constant heart breaking pain. Sometimes worse than others. If I keep my mind busy, it tends to help make things a little better.
Thank you for the advice.
Rock

You've gotten a lot of advice Rock.

What of it have you taken?

Is there some payoff for you for staying depressed, for choosing to remain a victim?

From the sound of it, you probably needs anti-anxiety and AD's both. At one point, I needed both too. Helped immensely.

Doesn't make you a bad person, a courageous person gets help regardless of how uncomfortable it is for them.

You've got to be a person she would want, if you want her to want you, yanno?

Dude, that is depression. Crying, trouble getting out of bed, heart breaking pain, sometimes worse than others--textbook depression. Xanax won't help that. Anti-depressants will. Lots and lots of people take ADs. They change peoples' lives.

There is no shame in taking them. Depression is a disease. If you had an infection, you would take antibiotics, right?

Get help. You will feel so much better. Do something to help yourself. People will get tired of listening to you if you don't.

[/quote]
People will get tired of listening to you if you don't. [/quote]

Ha. I'm already experiencing that. Maybe it's not really depression. Maybe it's me just feeling sorry for myself. I'm gonna give it a shot and try to have a better outlook on things and see how that goes.

Take some anti-D's. They should work in around 22 days. Then you will feel remarkably better and be able to cope with everything. I don't know what it is with men and depression meds, but for some reason they don't want to take them. They would rather "tough it out". In the meantime, life is miserable, and you can't help yourself or your marriage.

My husband was depressed, and also refused to take anything. Instead he had an affair. Now, he is back to being depressed. Sad.

For what it's worth, I don't think Mrs. Rock is putting much effort into the recovery. So YOU need to be the one to do all you can. I think that includes some meds.

Having a better outlook on things doesn't help clinical depression. It's like telling someone with a broken leg to have a better outlook about their fracture.

Lexapro really helped me keep it together when I was at rock bottom. I once was on Effexor for a couple months earlier in my life and the Lexapro worked MUCH better.

Thanks believer. I appreciate your input. I just want to first try to change my attitude a little and see how that goes. MAZ had a good heart to heart withme and inspired me to look at things ina different way that I have. I know that probably doesn't make much sense, but I feel (at least for now) a new positive outlook. Hence my new screen name to Rocksolid. lol.
Yes, us men are stubborn.


To me, I know that it will never get better unless we open up and talk about it. In time, I suppose. I have to show her and prove to her that she can be comfortable talking to me about it. In the meantime I am going to be the best Rock I can.

I guess as far as having depression goes, I would like to be evaluated to see if I really am depressed.

Are these ADs or anti-anxiety?

AD's.

A good book for you to read is Janis Abrahm Spring's "After the Affair". She gives excellent advice on recovering. Often the WS may be holding back, and the BS may be misreading actions. She helps to sort all of it out.

She also gives examples of practical ways the WS can make amends. And she helps the BS let the WS know what they need.

You are depressed.

Or else you are a drama queen and making up how you feel. LIke I said, what you have said is textbook depression.

A professional will ask you a bunch of questions. You can find out what they are for yourself. Google depression test. Go here, for example:

http://www.med.nyu.edu/psych/screens/depres.html


Some people are foolish.

Well, I failed that test.

I said a few pages ago that you need some ADs, and now everyone else is telling you the same. Please try them for a while, just to see if they help. I stopped mine due to some side effects, but I think I am going to go back on them for a while, as the natural remedies are not quite doing the job. My holiday was fine, but the second week was not good, as it was the 1-year anniversary of the A starting proper. It's a good job we were with a couple of friends, otherwise I don't know what I would have been like. I am working up to asking my big questions, but H has been very understanding and has answered a few extra ones.

Thanks DH. I actually did make an appt with my Dr., but I can't get in for a couple of weeks. I'm still not sure that I need any ADs. I've been doing rather well the last few days. My wife has opened up a little more to me. That helps so much to be actually able to talk about things a little bit. She shared a few things with me, and although it stung a little, I was so glad to hear it. I thanked her and told her that I appreciated it.
I hope things are going better for you!
Rock

Things are going OK, thanks. Had a couple of days back on the ADs and feel a bit more 'with it' now. Hopefully, I will get past the side effects if I can stay on them a bit longer than I did last time, otherwise I will ask doc to change to another one.

I was reluctant to go back on them, as I would have a few good days and think I was doing OK. But then down I would go again, so I've decided to take them for a while in order to keep a clear head.

I'm glad your W seems to be opening up. Hope it continues to improve for you.

Eh, it's day by day. Overall, if I look back to how I was 4 or 5 months ago, things are much better. She has told me a few things which has helped me. I still don't know about ADs. I promised her that I would make an appt with our Dr. And I did. I just don't know what good they will do or if I even need anything. I'll go talk to the doc though.
I hope things keep improving for you too!

What kind of side effects?

Rock - They all have some side effects. I took Zoloft which really helped. I felt completely great on day 22. But the first 10 days or so I felt strange. I don't know how to explain it - just not right. But that went away.

Also I had trouble sleeping, and my doc told me to take it in the AM instead of at night. That worked. Then there are sexual side effects - it is very hard to have an orgasm - don't know why, but it is.

And I had a dry mouth.

But there are some meds that don't have the sexual side effects. Ask your doc. And you shouldn't drink alcohol, although I did have a drink on occasion.

After taking the meds for a couple of months, the side effects went away. I continued taking them for about 14 months, and then tapered off with no problems.

I suggest you try anti-D's for a month or two. You should notice a remarkable difference. If you don't, then taper off of them. You have nothing to lose.

I was prescribed Sertraline, which is the UK name for Zoloft. I haven't been able to get past day 5 or 6 without giving up. Only managed three days this time. The trouble is, I just got over some of my menopausal symptoms, which then returned as a side effect of the ADs - insomnia, heartburn, dizziness, loss of libido/sensation. I woke up at 3am this morning and the room was spinning round! Although I did have some wine with dinner last night, which doesn't mix very well.

Apparently Wellbutrin (Zyban) does not have the sexual side effects, but I'm not sure what else it does. I am thinking of asking the doc about it. I could cope with the side effects if they were not as troublesome, and if I knew they would subside after a while, but I would like some sleep, after a year of troubled sleeping I am rather tired now!

I don't want to argue with you all, but I really don't know what these ADs are supposed to do. Is it supposed to just numb me from all this pain?

Might not save your marriage, but it may save your sanity and make you feel better about yourself, which may in turn make your W feel better about you. There are ADs that will not make you drowsy and unable to function (which I have experienced in the very distant past). The ones I took recently simply made me feel 'different' but I could still function. It was just the side effects that caused the problem, which may have been worse due to my hormonal problems.

I have just been to the doc's this morning and he has now prescribed Amitriptyline, which should also help me to get a good night's sleep - something I have been lacking for some time. I will see what side effects this one has. Although he did say I looked much better now than at the beginning of the year.

Just discuss with your doctor and don't be afraid of the ADs - they are not forever.

Well,things have been up and down lately. FWW and I both walk around on eggshells and it really sucks. This, to me, is all the fault of no communication. She has to watch every little thing that she says or else I might throw a jab or two out at her. Which I have.
I think that I jab because I am still trying to figure things out. I don’t know. All I seem to know is that my wife had an affair. I really don’t know how it started, what went on and other stuff. I really think that I am entitled to know more information.
I understand her side though. She’s probably worried about hurting me more or she’s ashamed of what she has done. I think though that it’s to the point where we throw this whole mess on the table, set up a plan, and get through it. I am so tired of this mess.
I don’t want my FWW to be so upset anymore. It’s effecting my daughter too. She’s worried that mommy and daddy are getting a divorce. I hate that she has to suffer through this too.
I love my wife more than anything. I want to protect my children from any pain.
Last night my FWW said that she has had enough and was going to write down every detail of what happened. I tried to talk to her but that didn’t work. I did read a little of what she had written and I have to admit that it did help me.
I just want to know what happened. I think that I do have a right to know what went on since it does effect me and my marriage.
Do you agree? Am I being unreasonable? What do you think?

Still up and down here, too.

I would say I do agree with you, although you should try not to throw the jabs. It seems like she will open up if you give her a chance but don't throw it back at her. Tell her that what you have read has helped you and it may encourage her to do more.

I'm a little tired of this mess, too. I'm not sure whether all this hassle will be worth it in the end. I keep visiting MB looking for words of wisdom that may help me through the turmoil, and there are a couple of useful threads going at the moment. Still, my brain is in no fit state to make life-changing decisions at the moment.

Take care.

Rock,

I'm about to enter the same water your in. I have to know what happened and I feel that I am entitled to the whole truth. For the moment, my WW and I have agreed not to discuss the A without a councilor. We have to learn to communicate and resolve conflicts before we try it on our own. I'm sure that if we talked about it now, it wouldn't be pretty.

I would love to just sit and talk about it. I'm tired of secrets and being "protected". I want to move on.
I think that I jab because of insecurity reasons. I think that if I knew the whole story of the affair that I really wouldn't have any reason to.
I think early on after D-Day I should have sat down and asked fro the whole story. I think that part of me felt sorry for her and what she was going through. Probably because I was a FWS and I know the humiliation of being on that side was too.

I feel like jabbing too, in fact I sometimes do make it known that I am so angry with all this. I think it's only normal to be angry, but it really doesn't get you anywhere other than in more conflict, but it helps to get it out once in a while. Try and keep calm and rational and you might make some headway. That's why you need the ADs!!

Honestly, she has told me some things. I really feel we are on the same page about what happened with OM2. I feel that we are on the same page and are a "team". It feels great.
I like to look at it as something that we both are up against. It's not just me attacking her. I don't hate her, I hate the affair. Now I'm working a little on OM3.
I think I jab because I am insecure, like I said. Insecure about not knowing what happened or being assured that we both will do whatever it takes so this doesn't ever happen again.

So when was your D-day? If I may ask?

First some background. I have been married for 19 years. Last December my wife said she wanted a D. We separated in March.

My WW A was going on for close to three years. I new she was having an EA and confronted her about it several times. I even had her quit her job twice (The OM was her boss). I new about the PA for about a year. I have a vasectomy, so when she went on the pill, I was pretty sure. She claimed that this was because she was having bad periods and her doctor suggested the pill. All along the way I wanted to believe her, or, I should say, I didn't want to admit the truth. Also, when I finally did realize the truth, I was afraid that if I confronted her it would drive her away. (and they talk about the WS being in a fog)

To answer you question, I consider D-day the day I finally confronted her with the affair and told her all I knew about it. This was the day she stopped denying it. This was May 4th. She has been NC since May 7.

I wish I had found this site years ago.

Thanks for sharing, losinit. How is the recovery going so far? At least you eventually did find this site. The help and support here is amazing (although I think they're getting tired of me and all my whining <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> coughcoughcoughMAZcoughcough) I don't know where I would be right now if I never found this site.
I'm sorry to hear about your situation.

I am thinking about laying it all out tonight with FWW and get to the things that I want to know about her A(s) tonight. Once and for all. It may be very painful to me and even her, but I want to get to the bottom of things and start moving forward. I'm tired of being stuck in this rut.
Do you think that is not such a good idea? Any advice would be apprciated.
Thanks!

Rock - I think if it is something that is holding you back then you need to talk about it. I have told you in the past not to talk about stuff like this, it was too early. Enough time has past now that you can/should talk about it.

Don't judge her though when/if she tells you things that you don't like.

good luck

Thanks for your thoughts M2L. My goal isn't to bash her, honest. There's just things that I feel that I need to know so we can start moving on. I don't even know how the A started. It's stuff like that that I want to know. I will be respectful of her feelings, but I hope that she understands where I'm coming from too.

All the best to you, Rock. Hope it goes well and you can start moving on.

It should go well. I think it will be good and help both of us. Then i will get myself on some ADs.

Hey DH, do you think that I should be able to get some info that I think I need? I mean all I know is that she had an A with some guy who works near her and they hooked up a few times. I just want to know some stuff that's all. I think I'm entitled to know some stuff. It is my wife and my marriage, right?

if she's open to helping you recover, you should be able to get some answers. I found it helped to have some questions prepared, and they were answered as best as FWH could. I have some more questions now, though, so I don't think for one minute that they're done. I am hoping that I can finish this game soon!

Me too. We have just been in this same old rut for so long. I just want to hear the truth. I would much rather just deal with the awful truth then sit here and be consumed by filling in the blanks.
Maybe I'm not totally sure what I'm looking for, but my gosh, I have to try something.

So looking back, did it help you to get some of your quetions answered? Or did you wish you didn't find out some things?

I think it did help in a way, but there were some things that I thought I didn't need to know, but which are now on my second list. The first questions were sent as an email and answered the same way, which made it easier at the time, but these new questions I am going to do face-to-face. I know I will break down, but I want to have some actual dialogue, rather than the safety net of writing to each other.

Some things had already been confessed just after D-day, before I asked the first questions. I think he was just so relieved that it was now out in the open he spilled a few things, and I wish I hadn't heard them, but I've dealt with it now and they don't really bother me.

I think, as you said, it is being consumed with filling in the blanks rather than having the truth. I didn't think I wanted all the nitty-gritty, but now I think I will not move on if I don't have at least some of the blanks filled in by H, rather than my imagination.

How's it going, Rock? Are you OK?

Hey DH. Thanks for asking. I'm doing ok, I guess. Just sitting around waiting until June 11 to see my dr so I can get some AD that I really don't want.
My whole question and answer session that I had fizzled out. I chickened out. I'm just a big lump doing nothing.
I don't know what to do. It seems right now that this depression has got the best of me. My thoughts seem totally consumed by my FWW's A.
Yay.
So how are things going with yourself?

Sorry to hear you're still struggling. Once you get the ADs you might get somewhere. They will help you, really.

My current ADs are helping me sleep a bit better, but if I have even a little alcohol (which it says not to do!), I go all dizzy, so I've had to miss the next tablet, so that my head spinning settles down - then no more alcohol!!
Strangely, I still feel OK when I don't take them, so maybe I'm coming out of my 'fog' anyway. I know that I'm not obsessing as much as I was. I haven't asked the questions yet - we've been catching up after our holiday and not really able to give it full concentration. Maybe tonight, or the weekend. I'm not really in any hurry now.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I really don’t want to go on them. I told my wife though that I would see the doctor. I guess if it will help at all then I will. I just don’t want to rely on a drug to get me through things. My FWW has been on them for around 10 years now and I see her moods changing almost daily and her addiction to them. It kind of scares me.
I just want to get better. I just walk around in a daze. I think part of me is still in shock that this all even happened.
I love my wife, there’s no question about that. I feel that my kids deserve a good stable family. I don’t want their memories of their childhood to be filled with chaos. I really don’t know what my FWW was thinking. I don’t think that she knew either.
So now I am left trying to pick up the pieces. She is here, but not really here. I f that makes any sense. I am supposed to win her back. What a tough concept. She shatters what little self-worth that I felt that I had and now I’m supposed to pick myself up, dust myself off and show her what a great man that I am. It almost seems impossible.
Well, sorry I got to rambling on. Thanks for listening. Take care.

RB,

Sorry that progress is coming in small doses. Shock is what your going through can be disabling. Perhaps, your not ready/ It's okay to coast along. Take it smaller bits, here & there.

I wanted to say, I noticed you've made a lot of progress here on the board. Just think you barely felt you could post one grieving song, on your own at the time. Now look at the great initatives from there.

Have you considered contacting Dr. Harley to assist you with this? I would strongly suggest it with his expertise, easier to get the problem addressed right& his advice for you both!

Your situation sounds very painful& complex on both sides.

I don't regret blowin the wad, as I was in a position where I could not afford to get the right professional help.

I want to share, that if you are not comfortable taking AD's, then don't. Everyone's bio-chemistry system is different.

For me, I had a very bad experince, did try ADs a few yrs ago, the side effects did a great deal of extensive damage to my system& I became extremely ill.Needless to say, I was extremely ticked off.

Got a new doc, on the progressive side. He confirmed/pointed this out. It's been a uphill climb of recovery ever since. Minus the stress factors.

Anyways, if you do your own research on google you can find out the pro/cons from taking ad's. Maybe your system can tolerate it.

I'm not comfortable with addiction factor/side effects, or drugs. Meds have their place. I probably should of have been on heavy pain killers, still really need them for my chronic pain issues, but I refrain.

Personally, I think one achieves much better results, with a good excerise program.

Hard to do& process when one is in a state of shock, disorientation, back to orientation. Of course getting a comprehensive blood analysis communicates a great deal.

You have already made an appointment with your doc, that's a great step!!! Hope that you would really consider contacting Dr. Harley, or reviewing their broadcasts might provide more encouragement for you.... I dunno---->

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Rock, I will say that it is up to you whether you follow the advice that many people here have given you. I fully appreciate what you're going through, as I'm sure many others here do, having all shared some degree of similarity in what is happening to us.

I have never been a keen tablet taker, except for the odd multi-vitamin or herbal remedy. I also used to be reluctant to go to my doctor with every ache and pain, but I seem to have set up a second home at the surgery lately! What with this and the menopause. But I felt I needed something, as the herbal products were not having much effect, and I did feel better taking the first tablets, apart from the side effects, as mentioned before. So, the new tablets - well, I'm not really sure what they're doing, as I've missed the odd day, usually because I have had a little drink and that's not recommended. I should know better really - I used to be a nurse! And anti-depressants are not the same as in days gone by, where you were prescribed them and left on them forever, in some cases. And the more modern ones are not addictive - in any case, your doctor should review you regularly. They will not 'drug you up' and make you unable to function normally. That was my initial thought, but the doctor reassured me. It might be that you only need them for a month or two, just to get over the worst part and get your brain in gear, or your questions asked, or whatever your goal is.

But really I think that the power of the mind has had a big part to play in my 'come-back'. I have practised positive thinking for some years now, but this recent upheaval just knocked me off so much, it was hard to make any headway. Counselling probably would not have helped me either, thinking back to how I was at the beginning of the year. I couldn't have taken it on board. I have been offered some Life Coaching, but I am not convinced that it will be any use now, as I feel that, at last, I am able to put my own knowledge into action.

BTW, I asked my questions last night - it went OK, with no anger on either side, but I did break down at one piece of news, so not a good night's sleep, I'm afraid. We had another chat this morning and things are now OK. I will update my Recovery thread soon, and then I think I am bowing out of MB. I will explain when I update my thread.

Take care.

Thanks for the responses sky and DH.
My computer at home is fried for the moment. I would love to listen to the shows, but I can't here at work. As far as the blood analysis goes, I am scheduled for some bloodwork shortly. I am a diabetic and am having a hard time taking all my medication. I'm not totally blaming all my negligence on this affair recovery, but it sure isn't helping. I am also taking medication for high blood pressure and high cholesteral. My job has been very stressful too. I seem to be a heart attack waiting to happen. I really don't want to add some more medication.

DH, I will be checking your recovering thread. If you do "bow out" I guess it will be bittersweet for me. I would love for you to work everything out and no longer have the need to come here, but I will miss your insight and input. Thank you for the time that you gave to me to help share things.
Talk to you guys later and thanks!

Thank you Rock. I don't really feel I've done that much, but I do try and see all sides of a situation. I will keep checking in on you from time to time. I really do hope that you make it. My thread is now updated.

I understand your concern about the ADs, but your doctor will only give them to you if he thinks it won't interfere with your other meds.

RS,

I am very sorry to hear about your health issues obstacles here. I understand& I getz it...your reluctancy, with adding more meds...why your feeling the additional extra low points... blood sugars drops, etc.

All the meds your taking& being a diabetic, adding AD really requires diligent focused monitoring on your part/doc part...(Even more so as a diabetic it's crucial to be teaming closely with your doc...)

Well, if this any encouragement, I am actually now off my high blood pressure meds, which I had taken for yrs.. I really had to wrk at a stress reduction program for myself.

The combination at the time of taking Ads/HBP meds(side effects from them), caused havoc on my immune system/liver...

I did bring down my blood sugars& high blood pressure levels down considerbly& took a natural route. Again, everyone system & tolerance to prescribed drugs is different.

Getting to this point to wrk with your doctor is a focused huge step of self care. Because if you don't I am very sorry to tell you that health wise, a body organ breakdown can rapidly deteriorate so fast,& can get worse more than you can imagine right now...

I share this from my personal experince.

I know I need to make another important gear shift in reducing, tunning out my acculumated stress levels lately & take more focused action.

Today, in fact, I dropped what I was doing& not feeling very well. Sort of my own personal red flag. Put my foot down & rushed out to get my self swimming passes at the pool...I don't feel a pill for me, can produce the all around positive mind/body health benefits one can obtain from swimming.

Then again, some people are not so chemically sensitive, and can do both their Ads& excerise program perferences....

Sorry to hear your pc is on the frizzz... Hope it's repairable!

RS...allow me to jump in the middle of the discussion here. I have not had the chance to catch up on your whole thread yet but if I am reading correctly, I have concluded this much so far...
you are still not in a place where you feel you are getting 100% honesty and transparency from your wife
you are hesitant to go on AD's.

Let me address the AD's first... I would strongly recommend that you NOT take AD's unless directed by a psychiatrist AND if you have exhausted other means of dealing with your depression first. I will assume that you are very motivated to get well so I am going to tell you that every study that has been done regarding the efficacy of AD's (and BTW, I sold Zoloft while working for Pfizer) has shown that aerobic exercise 4-5 times a week is just as effective and has only positive side effects. Here's the catch though... a lot of times when you are depressed it is tough to get motivated to start exercising. I would suggest that you sign up for several classes, aerobic and weight training tomorrow at your local gym. This cannot and should not be done alone. The studies are clear that the efficacy is greatly improved with group activity.
This should have the impact of lightening your mood and making you more attractive and healthy! All great things for you right now. Regular attendance in the classes is key.

As far as your wife...work the program here. Let me know where you are at right now with her... are you sure of NC. Has your wife committed to working on things?

I am sorry you are in so much pain. Hopefully we can help you find your way to a brighter day.

MEDC

ROCK:

There is a new medication out for diabetics. I am going to a seminar on it tomorrow. Will let you know what I find out so you can see your doctor about it.

Larry

Hey Rock ~

Zoloft saved my life. I agree with MEDC that you should try other avenues first, and excercise is a proven anti-depressant - but if your doctor (and I mean psychiatrist, not internist!) recommends you take them, then I would encourage you to try.

The thoughts we have impact our biochemistry, which impacts our thoughts which impacts our biochemistry....and in situations like this, just getting the downward spiral to stop is enough for you to regain your sense of self and ability to cope with life. I know thats how it worked for me. I only needed Zoloft for a short while - I think I took it for 6 months? But thats all I needed - just a boost to help me keep my mind afloat while I dealt with all the stuff I needed to deal with.

If you do use AD's dont just take them as a cure-all. Take them in addition to getting the help you need with the rest of your life - therapy with an IC, and a 12 step program can also help. Find a church if you dont already have one, and reach out to other people.

Your observations are correct MEDC, thanks for chiming in BTW. I'll post a weekend update shortly.
The gym idea probably wouldn't be good for me. I joined a local one just over a year ago and even talked FWW to join too. Unfortunately that is where she hooked up with her personal trainer (OM2). I'll just have to get more involved in my bowflex at home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MEDC

FYI - I know you have not read the whole thread, but Rock's wife still works with 2 of the 3 OM. If I recall she sees one of the OM everyday and the other ahe may pass by from time to time.

Rock - I am going to keep beating this drumb until it breaks - she needs to find another job my friend. I know that jobs like hers are very good jobs, but something HAS to give here.

If this is the case, then there is no point in trying to recover the marriage until such a time as that changes.
RS...if your wife refuses to leave these places of employment, I think it is time to go to Plan B. It has been 8 months since Dday...I would suggest that you not standing up and taking a stand for you is hurting your M.

As far as the gym... go to another one. As far as not talking to your wife...if you continue to handle this in a less than "manly" fashion, you will not get any where. Stand up for yourself and for your marriage NOW...if you don't, you will have no one else to blame 6 months from now when things are still the same.

What is your plan RS???? Your plan... not your wants, desires or maybes? What's the plan you are working here?

I just want to clarify that I only work with OM1. As we have discussed before, in great length, there is no way that I can quit my job. Both Mr. Rock and I understand that and he has also e-mailed with OM1. So I just wanted to clarify that and state that this area has been discussed.

Mrs. Rock

discuss it all you want... there is a way for you to quit your job... you write a letter of resignation and work in Wlmart if you have to. Finances, careers, personal sacrifices of any matter need to be taken to assure NC. You work with a man that you betrayed your husband with.
Your H should take a stand and say this is a boundary that if it is not respected, that he goes dark on you. There is NO reason that is good enough for you to work with any of your OM.
You are lucky beyond words that this man is till giving you the time of day let alone working on your M. Start repaying this gift by giving him the respect he deserves.

And am I correct that you have had 3 affairs with 3 different men??? If that is the case, I will say this to you directly... he should divorce you immediately since you have shown you are not worth the effort of tying to recover. If you have had 3 affairs, you are a serial cheater that has no respect for her H. If I read this wrong, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

MEDC

Mr Rock had an A about 10 years ago also. Lots to work thru here MEDC.

I have told them to call the Steve H, get his advise.

Mrs. Rock - does that mean that OM3 not longer works at your co or location??? I know you said in the past that you can advoid the building he works in.

Mine was 12 years ago.
It's tough, but I have accepted the fact that she works with OM1 and I guess I am attempting to "beat the odds" so to speak as far as surviving. OM2 is definately out of the picture. OM3 is just a stones throw away though, but she assures me of NC with him. I know very little about her romance or relationship or whatever it was with him and that bothers me a lot. I blame myself for not "manning" up as you say and getting to the bottom of things.
My FWW did some terrible things and has hurt me more than I ever thought I could be hurt. I choose to stay and try to work this out. I love all the help that I've gotten here so far. I know that I am going against a lot of the principals that everyone has here. Maybe I am in denial, I don't know.
I know that a lot of pros here won't even attempt to help me because of the NC boundary. I don't know. We'll see what happens.
Rock

I too will have to bow out of your thread right now. You need to be willing to help yourself before seeking help from others RS. You are ignoring the most basic common sense things here.... and I think you are doing it to appease your wife. Big mistake. Stand up and be counted or risk being 50 and still dealing with this.

MEDC

Mrs. Rock,

How can you not quit your job? I think you mean to say that "I WILL not quit my job" and if RS pushes this then this is a deal breaker and I will leave. Wrong or right?

RS can do what he feels he needs to but continuing to work w/ a man with whom you betrayed your husband will never be helpful to your M or to your personal growth and withdrawal.

Well, ok, then, I appreciate your attempt to help. She works with OM1 and I have talked with him. I feel confident that he will never attempt to cross that line with my wife again. Very confident, honestly.
We are in no position for her to quit her job. I believe that someday we can work this out. A lot of it just has to do with our lack of communications and my boundaries, etc.
Heck the OW in my affair was a friend of my FWWs and some time after my D-Day they practically became best friends. I give my FWW lots of credit for that.
Thanks,
Rock

My FWW working with the OM was the ONE boundary that [color:"red"] I would not back down on. [/color]

I had to sell a car and get a different one with better gas mileage. Her old job with OM was 10 min away. New job 45 min away.

You do what you have to do.

Thanks Larry. I'm looking forward to what you find out.

WOW! You know my DH/BS has encouraged me to come here, maybe even to start my own thread. You have just reinforced the reason why I don't. You are coming into this thread without reading or knowing the whole history. Your comments to me and about me are very brutal. Yes, I have hurt him deeply and we have a lot to work on. And that is what "WE" are willing to do. Maybe you can check up on us in a few months and see where we are at.

Mrs. Rock

PS I do appreciate his willingness to stay with me....as much as I am sure he appreciates my decision 12 years ago to stay with him.

Thank you Mr. Rock for "trying" to clarify things. We have been through this before with posters to this thread. Thank you for hanging in there with me, unlike what one poster said recently "I DO" respect my husband. But I don't know if I will be back here again.

MrsRock:

Hang Around.

Can't hurt.

And will help.

Can some knock you around?

Yes.

Are they providing good advice? Yes.

Don't you understand that your continuing to work with the OM can be detrimental to your M? To your H feeling that he is first in your life?

My OW moved to another state. I am so glad she did. It made recovery so much easier for my BS and me.

If she had stayed, the temptation would have been to great. Her last attempt at contact was two weeks after dday, and BS answered the phone, and that was it.

Did I have alot of issues to work on? Oh, yes!!!

Did I? Yes. With my BS. The unresolved issues in your M from your H's affair 12 years ago continued and festered until you succumbed to the same things.

The more you read here, the more you would understand how even this indirect contact with OM slows recovery.

You might not feel the need to leave your job now, and you and RS may have alot of reasons to not leave this position now. (Salary, Benefits, Flexible Schedule, close by, etc.) But the more you learn about MB, the more that you would actually WANT to leave your job. Because it would be the right thing to do. And this realization can come in two months, or two years.

And you might get lucky, and OM leaves, like my OW did. We can not predict the future.

If that was to happen, I think that you would see your Recovery start to move faster.

Just my opinion. When we stray, we lose alot of direction. I have been there, and now you have too.

I rebuilt my M with tremendous support from my BS.

But we both committed to it. I did many things I didn't think were that important, (Caller ID? a godsend!) but were important to BS. And the MB way does not prescribe that you MUST do that, or you MUST do this. It's not a MUST, but it is the path that is generally the shortest. But if you are making progress on the path, then these sticking points, be it leaving this position, or something else, will become evident soon enough. And then you will have to address them because they are holding your recovery back.

So, please hang around. There are a number of FWW's here that will give you support if you need it. You have taken a HUGE first step by just posting. Remember that. You are so much further ahead.

And is RS a better husband now then he was before he came here?

I hope so. You can to.

LG

Mrs. Rock

If one person runs you off for offering an opinion, right or wrong then I wonder about the thickness of your skin and willingness to do the "work" required to rebuild your marriage or anything else that falls apart in your life.

Regardless, I appreciate the fact that you are making an attempt to restore your marriage but I sense very little remorse and instead hear "Just like I did when I didn't leave him 12 years ago", sounds like justification or rationalization to me.

I don't really care about anything except you and Mr. Rock recovering your M. I hope you will not quit posting here. There are a lot of good people here who want to help. Others help with a more firm and less tolerant hand. I would suggest that because you don't like their approach or words you don't ignore them. Whatever their approach or words there is some grain of truth to them and it hurts you or makes you mad at people "judging" or calling you to account, imo.

Oh well, here's hoping that you hang around or start your own thread aimed specifically at building a new marriage.

I agree.

I also feel that the situation is that she loves her job and does not want to leave it and Mr. Rock does not want to make it a dealbreaker because he feels she will choose the job over him.

There are also a whole host of other issues that are going on here, depression of both parties (resistance to AD's which I feel are extremely needed by Mr. Rock), consensual yet inappropriate relationships and behavior with friends in the past, unwillingness to go to MC, and unwillingness to follow much advice given to either of them.

In all honesty, I'm not sure there has been much progress in their recovery. I think the saying that you can't do the same thing over and over and expect different results applies here.

To be honest, this quote bothers me also.

I know where you all are coming from. Believe me, I would love nothing more for her to never see OM1 again in her life. I just think that we will be able to work through this. I have confidence that we can still survive through this and she can set up some boundaries.
If not, then she cheats again and we are through. We both understand this.
As far as not taking advice, the only advice I think I haven't taken is the demand that FWW quits her job. I am getting advice from both sides about taking ADs or not taking them.
I also feel that I have come a long way since I first came here.

1. Mr. R - see your own Dr. about your health needs. No one here can make that call over a web site as well as your own Dr.

2. I suggested you/wife call the Harleys and get their input/help. You two are stuck in a rut and need help out of it. THEY are the people to do it.

Post deleted by rocksolid

I think she likes to SAY she feels attacked. It stops her from having to be accountable for her choices and for doing any hard work. Basically, she is having her little tantrum and taking her ball and going home. IMHO, she appears to be manipulating you every chance she gets RS.

It is my humble opinion and the opinion of the founder of this site that there are certain things that MUST happen for recovery... not should... MUST. Focus on those for they are the low hanging fruit right now. Do not waiver.

MEDC

Mrs. Rock doesn't like a mirror being held up. She has not fully taken responsibility for the damage she has done and instead still feels justified in her actions because of your A 12 YEARS AGO and or other things YOU may have done that did not make her happy.

I am sure Mrs. Rock is a good woman and wants to do the right thing. The start to this is to FULLY ACCEPT responsibility for the A she had, to FULLY SEE the real damage she has propogated upon RS and her family, TRULY COMMIT to restoring her marriage by making it priority ONE, over any job or OM. Until she is willing to do these things I think you and she will be stuck for a long time to come or until resentment takes hold on one side or the other. Mrs. Rock, the first step back is HUMILITY. I bet you my next paycheck if you came here with humility and an open mind that INCLUDES the possibility that you need to quit your job and have NC with OM you will find a world of difference in people's posts and attitudes towards you.

hopeandpray,

Although Mrs. Rock would probably disagree, I think you are right.

MEDC,

I loved the taking the ball and going home analogy!

Mrs. R,

FWIW, as a FWW, I would not still be here plugging along, a whole one year later if MB was full of people waiting to attack the waywards the moment they show up!

We all know the formula, anger, resentment and entitlement.

Sometimes looking in the mirror s(cks big time, but really look in it we must. Sometimes we think we have, but we really haven't. I don't think a wayward has really come to terms with themselves if they have never truly broken down and lamented at what a piece of [censored] they were.

Rock,

I know you feel stuck between a "rock" (lol) and a hard place. If you enforce any of these boundaries as has been suggested you feel you will lose Mrs. R. Saying she can't quit her job, or you can't spend such and such amount of time together isn't a law, it's a matter of choice. It all is. The choices are hard, require a lot of work and sacrifice...but to say there's no choice is incorrect. Some choices we like, some we don't, but they're all choices nonetheless.

Rock, it's really hard seeing you both go through this anguish, but I know how you feel, I really do.

When I was posting my story, there were some who were telling me I should do this or that, and really they did not know the real situation 'on the ground' as it were. I could tell that I needed to take a different tack, as FWH was making an effort - it just didn't seem like the right kind of effort at the right time. The situation really was not as others were assuming.

So I know that you are probably in a better place than we are all thinking. BUT, you do need to sort yourself out as well. AND, you W does need to do more to help you out of this. Literally in the past week, since my questions, my H has said things to me that I wish he'd said weeks ago: "I didn't realise you cared as much as you do. I didn't realise I cared, but I do". "I love you much more than I realised". When camping this last weekend - "This reminds me of the happier times we had, before I was so stupid, but I know was still being nasty at times". This morning - "I am proud of your strength of character to fight for us in the way you did". In short, he's finally acknowledged that he is the one who was at fault here, not me for not meeting needs, or doing or not doing this or that. It's helped me beyond words. THAT is what you W should be doing, in my opinion.

And I totally agree with all the previous posters on what needs to be done re OM. I could not settle until the end of the project that H and OW were involved in. I had to endure weeks of torture after D-day until ALL contact could be broken for good.

MAZ

I just want to say how much I admire you and other FWW's or FWH's that have come to this site, taken 2x4's across the head and not run away. You are right in that unless there is some point in all of this where the wayward spouse get's it and I mean get's it to the point of wallowing in pain, anguish, embarassment, dismay, tears, and more at who they allowed themselves to be inside the affair there is little chance that a new, stronger, better marriage can be forged.

It takes real courage to look at one's self when the reflection back is not something your are proud nor want to see. Real healing, changing can take place at that point. Everything else is superficial imo. Thanks again for standing in here and not quitting and offering your unique perspective on things.

Post deleted by rockbottom06

How you doin' Rock?

I’m o.k. Thanks for asking DH. Things are pretty much the same. I still check the boards, obviously, but I really don’t have much more to say. My marraige is just kind of dead in the water right now. We don’t talk about M/R at all. We are having a ton of financial problems right now, so that has been sucking up most of our thoughts for the moment.
I was supposed to see my Dr and perhaps talk about some AD, but I had to reschedule until July. I am still working on my list of questions that I would like to ask her. She has told me that she has been writing some stuff for me to. That’s good I guess.
How are things going with you? Thank you so much for thinking of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Rock

Well, I think we might have turned the corner last night or something. FWW sat down with me and read me a nasty letter that she wrote to OM2 (the one who threatened me with a lawsuit). She isn't going to send it. It was just a litle therapy for her. It felt really good to hear what she had to say. Then we started talking about everything else. I asked her questions and talked about how I was feeling and such. I believe that she was being honest, and although a lot of it stung pretty good, I appreciated hearing the truth and I do feel like a little bit of weight was lifted off of my shoulders. Honesty feels so good.
I wish I just knew how to stop the pain from it all. Does it ever go away? Sometimes I don’t ever think it will end. How does one go on?
Now I don’t know what I really want. She gave me some answers that I wanted. What more do I need? I think part of me wants to know that she is truly sorry. I think I want her to realize the pain that she has caused me. I want her to hate this all as much as I do. I want to know that she is committed to our marriage.
This is hard.

T I M E

time to heal
time to love each other
time to care for each other
time to meet each others EN
time X watch - if your Pres Bush LOL
time spent as a family.

hang in there buddy

Rock, we are doing great now, thanks. Still having some 'hormonal moments' but all in all it's much better.


That sounds very positive - communication is the key. Did you express your appreciation of this move forward? I agree that the truth feels very good. I appreciated the answers to my questions, even though some of it was tough to hear. I feel quite proud of myself for not dwelling on the bad bits. They truly are not bothering me in the slightest. All I want to do is enjoy what we have now, and work to keep it that way (notice I didn't say 'hope it stays that way'?)


Stopping the pain requires you to say to yourself that you don't want it any more - change the way you think about it. It will go away, but you need to work at it. It does seem an impossible task sometimes, but really, YOU are in charge of that.


Think about it, what is it you REALLY want? Will your W be prepared to give it to you? Does it really matter as long as you're moving on? What difference would it make knowing more? Could you live without knowing all the minutiae? This could go on forever if you are constantly looking for something intangible to make you feel better.


Perhaps she is. Did you ask her that?


Perhaps she does. Did you ask her?


Perhaps she does. Did you ask her?


You know what I'm going to say here!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


It is, but it really can and does get better. Since our question session, my FWH has said other things that indicate his remorse and regret, whereas I was totally unsure of his thoughts about all this a few weeks ago. I think that once we initiated some communication, he felt safer telling me more about how he feels. He'd been bottling up his feelings - probably in order not to make me feel worse - and he's just been trying to help me through the bad patches. Yesterday he said he had been a bit depressed at work, and apparently it was because I was feeling depressed that morning and he was concerned. He went to look for something to buy to cheer me up (which he couldn't find and I said he didn't need to do that anyway). He just wants me to feel well, and I do now.

I found THIS THREAD quite enlightening.

Thanks DH, you too M2l. I'll check it out.

Rock,

Your post started out positive then very quickly those good things that happened seemed to go by the wayside by the end of the post.

Don't dwell on the negative to the point you downplay the strides that you two have made okay?

Another thing that caught me was the numerous assumptions that were present but I see DH59 already beat me to the punch on that one!

That thread DH pointed to is a good one too btw, I think FWS could do a lot for their M recovery by understanding the nature of forgiveness.

I know that Harley makes some comment that the WS doesn't really have to "get it", I mean get what they did and the extent of it only that they commit to the marriage and towards recovery. WELL for me at least the above would have been (moot point since we D'd) required. I would not feel comfortable recovering a marriage with someone who didn't "get it" as much as I and other family members, friends, loved ones "GOT IT" while she was out having an affair. That would be a personal boundary of mine (gnashing of teeth, sack cloth and ashes, the whole bit).

I think it is very hard for me being a FWS. I "got it". Being so remorseful for what I did really makes it really hard to understand why she would do it. She told me now that she has learned how awful affairs are.
I really am feeling positive about some recovery. It's hard to understand why she did this, but I think it's maybe even harder to accept the things that I contributed to her downfall.
Thanks guys.

You cannot judge what someone else does by how you do it. I have certainly learned that fact recently. I would have bent over backwards from the very beginning if I had the A, but I had to accept that my FWH just did it his way, and it's turned out good in the end. Could have ended quicker, though, if it had been my way!!

Anyway, it sounds good that you've both made some progress.


This was one thing holding me back - constant regret and beating myself up about why I did this or didn't do that in our relationship. Forgive yourself and you will get over this hurdle. You cannot go back and change it, therefore you need to accept that it happened, and just concentrate on the good things happening now. Make the future better. Work at it. You're getting closer all the time!!

Hello. I hope all of you fathers had a nice Fathers Day. Mine was uneventful, but that’s ok. After taking ten baby steps forward lately, we seem to have taken a couple backwards. I came to find out from a letter I read that she wrote OM2 that there was some physical contact when she had told me all along that there wasn’t. I know it shouldn’t really make a difference, I suppose. To me, if the intent is there, that’s good enough. In fact, I learned that she was aggressively pursuing a PA with this jerk. This was a guy who was a trainer in a gym who started it all by showing my FWW pictures of his genitals on his computer. ( I am really amazed that there are people out there like that)
Last night I read this letter before I left to go to church by myself. I approached my wife and told her that I found out that she had kissed OM2 and that she was trying hard to have sex with this guy.
I went to church and prayed like I haven’t in a long time. I told God that I had failed in my marriage. I asked for strength to get me through this. I remember back to when I was getting married and was taught that it takes the three of us for a successful marriage. Me, my wife and God. It seems like it’s just me and God right now. Actually it feels like it’s just me.
After church I went to the cemetery. First to visit my father’s grave and then to visit my son’s grave. I sat and had a good cry.
I came home and my wife asked me if I wanted to file the divorce papers. I told her, no, I don’t do divorce. I believe in marriage. I told her that I wanted to fix my marriage and I believe that it can be fixed. She told me that she didn’t know how much more of this she could take.
I told her that confused me. I told her that there is nothing I would want more than to get through all of this and put it all behind us, but it seems I am always discovering more lies all of the time. I told her that from the start that all I want is for her to be open and honest with me. I just want the truth. She told me that she wanted to protect me.
Basically, she got into my affair 13 years ago and maybe she has never dealt with it correctly. I told her that I am pretty much done with what I did. I owned up to it, I regret it, I worked hard afterwards to do the right thing and that I am definately not the person anymore that did that. To this day I have had to live with what I did and hate myself everyday for it. I told her that the counselors that I talked to told me that they could see thatI am racked with guilt and that I have to stop beating myself up or I can never move forward. Anyway, I was left defending myself once again. Obviously she has never forgiven me.
I told her again how much I cherish my marriage and that she is everything to me. I told her that when we were married that I took it pretty seriously. She told me that our relationship was always a joke to me.
She told me that she hates getting older and that she hates her looks. I guess that’s why these guys were younger than me. I must make her feel old. I told her that to me she is the most beautiful woman in the world. I asked her how come if I tell her how good she looks it doesn’t mean anything, but if any guy trying to get in her pants tells her, she’s all over him. She said she didn’t know. I asked her if I got in better physical shape would she love me? She wouldn’t answer, so I assume that is the truth. Although I would stick by her if she gained 100 pounds.
Sometimes this fight seems so futile. It’s like I’m trying to sail this boat all by myself. I can’t seem to ever get any love from my wife. I believe affection is one of my top EN, so this is extra tough.
Later that night I took my daughter to the nearby high school track and did a few laps. I guess I have to drop a few pounds to win my wife back. I don’t know what else to do.
I just hope that all of the truth is out now. That’s all I want and ever wanted.
Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

I'm still listening Rock. I don't have anything to say right now other that I read your post and I do feel for you and your wife.

An idea!! How about dropping that weight while you save up to call the Harleys? I think they could up you two up on a plan to help.

Here is a snippet from an email she sent me today:

I know you have a million things on your mind. Me too. Probably more than you know. I remember lying there and saying I know I love him, but I don't know what my problem is. I am cold, I know that. I don’t know how to change what has been done. I don't know how to make it better. I am an awful person. Here I have this guy that loves me, but I can't take it. For some reason I don’t want it. I am really confused. Confused at my feelings, so much under stress.

Even though I do like my job here, I will start looking for other government postings. Not sure I will find anything as good but I guess that does not matter. I need to take the advise of people on the MB and take steps to show you that I am committed to this recovery. But it is hard. It is going to be a hard long road. So here is hoping that you can in some way try to have a good day. I am terribly sorry for everything. I don’t know what more to say. I'm sorry. I love you, I'm sorry.

Rock!

This is great news!

This also confirms my belief that a lot of us FWSs don't really know the "why"...

She has a lot of things on her mind, more than you know according to her. I believe it. She probably doesn't even know how to put into words what she feels, a lot of times I didn't. So you don't get her sharing and you're left wondering. But here she's trying to share something...

When she says she has this guy who loves me but can't take it...that suggests to me that she (like myself) was looking/expecting another person to make her happy. It's a tough road to accept that it's not up to anyone else to make you happy. She's looking externally, when she has to find it within herself. The world/society teaches us that things/people will bring us happiness. How many of us, how much of the rest of the world...is operating under that fallacy. If I was thinner, richer, better looking, my spouse was this, that or the other...all external.

She will have to struggle through that issue, like I did, and hopefully through a lot of hard work, get rid of those mistaken beliefs that we have based our choices on all these years.

LA has been immensely helpful to me in that regard, I'm sure she'd be helpful to her too if she'd give a shout out to her.

To me, her email was a really good sign for you two...


MAZ

Great news Rock....

And Mrs. Rock,I have been on you before about that job and you have made yourself proud by prioritizing your M and your family. Congratulations to you and Rock.

I will be praying for strength and healing for both of you.

God bless,

Thanks MAZ. This makes a lot of sense.

RB,

I'm here...got your shout out...and I'm reading on your thread where I left off last...to catch up.

It's a must(ard), which I relish.

I think you can see, I'm just hot-dogging now.

LA

Rock, I eventually discovered the truth about some things that had earlier been lied about. It's the way it happens, as I'm sure you will gather reading all the stories on this site. And it will hurt for these things to keep coming back and hitting you in the face, but eventually, you will have to start to recover your sanity. The first step I took was to say to myself that these things were all done and said way back when they were in 'The Fog', and that nothing could be done about it now, as long as apologies were given, which they were in my case, and also appears to be in yours, according to your later post. Appreciate that your W is now opening up and work on that progress.


Well, it appears that the truth is now coming out, but the truth does hurt sometimes, and some people just can't bring themselves to say things that they think will hurt someone. Try and give her some credit for the current progress. You've been in those shoes yourself, so you must have some appreciation of what she's going through, as she must for you as well. You may yet discover more lies. These things are built on lies, so it should be no surprise to you that some more revelations may will surface. That's why I asked the questions I did - so that I could get to the bottom of what was really bothering me and then not worry about all the other inconsistencies. Life's too short to let every little nuance get to you.

Take care.

SB,

I'm all behind and about DH59's " That's why I asked the questions I did - so that I could get to the bottom of what was really bothering me and tben not worry about all the other inconsistencies."

Getting to the bottom of what is really bothering YOU...in you.

And I heard you in your previous posts raise the question I did to my WH, though not in the words I pummelled my WH with: "How could you do this KNOWING how devastating it is? How could you?"

Underneath it all...there is the idea that MrsRock knows this road...she had to walk it first.

Which is why through my own experience, I see only recovery and thriving for you both, together, in a couple of years...because that's where my DH and me walked...that's how close...because my DH handled my A's much the way your FWW did...he stayed, he didn't call me on my stuff...even befriended/accepted OMs...in his way. He buried, denied and didn't look the full devastation in the eye.

Here I was, a full-blown WW believing my DH would not do this to me...beyond imagining...so was the pain.

You both know this now...you know how you reset your own boundaries around you...which is why you won't be wayward again, RB...that's what I believe...and so have I. My DH is working on his...because he betrayed himself back then, as well...because he didn't cut off contact, didn't tell them to their faces what scum they were...he beat himself up with thinking something was wrong with HIM that I would stray. Yes, that he was so awful, I deserved to betray our marriage.

I took advantage of that back then. What about you, SB? You were getting yourself set and straight from your choice to have an A long before I had a clue...what about you? How much did you take off her shoulders, you think, in setting her straight that OW would never be apart of your lives...no contact, no part?

Leftover crap, SB...we work through all of it. We really do. And we do it together.

MrsRock...I believe your road to your personally redemption will be in finding that other job...I really do. Until I got how taking such bold actions really did go towards repairing our marriage, I was resistant, vacillating and could only see the downside of the possibility. I'm so glad I took those measures...and that my DH chose to, as well. Going out on that limb really set inside me my priorities, once and for all...and I KNEW I was different...finally...because

I made different choices. Even the really hard ones.

I encourage you for the same for correcting all the protective lies and lies by omission. Each one you correct and own, is another step to respecting your BH. Says "I know you can take the truth; it's the deception which kills." Every admission of truth IS an act of love of self, your BH and the marriage.

I've found it to be the way out of a wayward mindset. Respect your BH, MrsR...he's stronger, clearer, more forgiving, understanding and can take the really hard hits necessary for recovery. He's that strong. What he isn't strong enough for, and no one is, is for the trickle down truth...because the hits keep on coming, and each new discovery, no matter how tiny it may seem to you, puts him back at DDay all over again. Because of our human design...NOT because he's taking it too hard, out of proportion or vengefully.

And to your email to RB, which I think is so very brave and true...what I hear you saying is that you're choosing to love BH and you feel fear from that choice...deep, abiding fear. Doesn't mean it's a feeling to act on...you know where you've gotten yourself by acting on your feelings...and choosing to believe you WILL know because you are courageous enough to go inward, find your stuff, own and know it...and share it...so that you commmit to knowing what you don't know right now...that's where you most want to be. You want to trust yourself, be reliable to yourself...and you will be. If you commit to it.

Takes a lot of self-deception for three OMs...no bash...from my own experience...and the wayward state of mind continues, even with NO OMs...I promise you. Until you choose to live your life from respect and truth, it won't change. Gimble had to say this for my life to change:

An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

Breaking that truth down, learning all the ways I created and nurtured resentment in myself, where I didn't respect (protecting from truth), lied to my own self, and used the signal of entitlement to trace it all...that's when I earned my F, which is FREEDOM....FWW...and chose to really recovery, both personally and maritally.

In your email, you said you were sorry, and that you can't go back and change the past. Not in our human design. What is there, though, is amends. You amend in the present...won't erase the past...will certain change your future. Amends...like you looking for other gov't positions...is the action of an apology which is necessary in forgiveness. And you're doing that. Big kudos.

MAZ identified one of the roots of infidelity...since you both have made that choice...look to understanding enmeshment, being living mirrors to one another (which appears to work great until you stop reflecting what the other wants to be seen as), and choosing the image that you complete each other (which says on the flip side of that belief that you BOTH are incomplete and lacking). You guys don't. You're both marvelously made human beings, by God's hand, whole and complete...and if you choose to see yourself growing side by side...you WILL. And you will share...and know...and act intimately, through respect; you'll rebuild trust (nothing to an extreme) the more you learn to trust yourselves. There is you, him and The Marriage (God's part of your union)...and because of that third part...you can honor marital boundaries, even when you do not feel like honoring your BH...or yourself. You can respect this union, even when you're hurting, wanting so badly to hurt back or self-soothe unhealthily, because The Marriage has not harmed you in anyway. It's been your place of safety before, your half of something bigger than yourself...and it remains.

Recovery has the relief of never having to go through this again...doing it well, with eyes wide open...inward and outward...can give you what you've always dreamed of...knowing your DH loves you beyond reason...he chooses you every single day because he does...and you choose him...he can't make you anything but a sandwich...

From this, your family thrives, your life is one of abundance, not lack...all from seeing your part, your half...owning it all the way. Staying committed in your minds (KNOWING you are, even when you don't FEEL like you want to be), and falling in love with your partner over and over again. Totally real, in my experience, MrsR. You really can. And so can SB.

He loves the soul of you, outward. Your totality. You may fear loving his, loving this deeply or intimately...especially after 12 years of acting from fear...which may be why you're right here, right now. Doesn't mean you're weak, wrong or defective at all. Means choosing to react to your fear gives you a fear-based life...leads to wayward state of mind. A really sucky loop.

Choosing to act from love will give you a love-based life...and you will feel abundantly loved, cared for, considered, appreciated, admired and accepted. Your choice.

To me, it's a no-brainer.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But then, I made the really terrible puns in my acknowledgement to RB's call out. So, for what it's worth...

FWIW...

LA

Thanks LA. That was wonderful. I'm gonna have to sit and digest all that for a while. You brought tears to my eyes.
Thank you.

It's times like these that you need to encourage your FWW. Most waywards don't believe that things can be recovered, but us MB pros know better. Be the rock that shows her the way. Let her know that you know how difficult things are right now, but that all the struggles that you two are going through now will make the rewards of your future recovered marriage all the more special. You need to be her cheerleader and believe in her. Right now she doesn't believe in herself, and she can tell if you don't believe in her. Rock, you know this will get better, so project that strength and lead your FWW through these difficult times.

RB,

I hear poking you in the eye gets the same result.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

You're welcome...both of you...to my experience...not an act of kindness...an act of honesty...holding to my code...because neither of you are alone.

Do you need some Tums with my post?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA your responses always seem like a calm in the storm. Calm and soothing and helps make me look at situations differently and for what they are.
Your replys really seem to hit home because our situations seem rather similiar.
Thanks for taking the time to help us. You too jmwc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Rock

I have a feeling that something is finally happening here. You are getting some helpful posts and I hope you can work on them and get things moving for both of you.

Take care - of each other.

Thanks for the encouragement DH. I really hope that you are right. I think I a m coming to the realization that I will never really get the truth about everything. Like you told me earlier, these things are all built on lies. A lot of things that she has told me that I thought was the truth were lies. I think that is something that is so frustrating and hard to understand. Like LA told me, every little new nugget of half-truth that I find out brings me back to my D-Day. I tend to over analyze and over-think things also.
Some things lately have bothered me. She pretty much let me know that she isn’t physically attracted to me (which I am now trying to work on) and she told me that she thinks that SF is repulsive. I don’t understand why she would feel that way. She sure didn’t think it was with these other guys. I’m now stuck with the aftermath,I guess.
I do feel confident though that eventually we can recover.
I remember when I first came here, I was told that this takes a LOT of time. Boy were they right.
Thanks DH. I hope things are going well for you.

Why? She despises herself for being who she is/was. She despises herself for becoming an immoral, loose woman and being used by men. She despises herself for violating her own principles/beliefs to participate in sexual affairs outside of marriage and relates all this to having sex.

She's not attracted to you because you remind her of who she has become and who she will never be again. That's why.

RB,

By the way...what happened to RockSolid? Would you consider, RockSteady? (Yeah, I'm old.)

Listen to HopeandPray here...projection isn't unusual and I believe this is projection.

What I want to respond to is your choice to lie to yourself.

Please choose differently.

"I think I a m coming to the realization that I will never really get the truth about everything."

When you think "never" or "always" or "ever"...you're not in your adult perspective...because we know those words are rarely real...very few applications to the truth. What they are is a signal you're hurting, you're in your more childlike perspective...so when I say you're lying to yourself, you're telling yourself that you've had a realization which wasn't real.

You don't know if you will get the whole truth. The heart of the wayward perspective is SELF-deception. Takes time and awareness over time, to really get to all the truth of what took place. Because the WS doesn't really know...still sorting through fantasy for the bits of reality.

WS's shut out the reality of what they don't want...that's the license which permits such abhorrent conduct. Hey, I was wayward...this isn't me labeling others. I experienced this. I shut out the reality that my DH loved me...proving to myself (justifying) he didn't. I shut out a lot of my actions because the shock of what I was capable of was too close to reality...might have broken my own fog.

After your A, did you identify all the whys, the trail, the justifications? Did you give all the details to your BW's satisfaction? Or could you even know what level that was because she didn't ask...and you didn't see her BS fog as protecting her from massive shock after shock?

What if you could truly heal from both, together? That's where we're going here. You won't get there, though, if you lie to yourself with knowing a future you cannot know. DJing the future for present reward.

And how is pretending to realize what you don't know a comfort? Feels like control, doesn't? Watch out for that...wanting peace at any cost...false acceptance. Good to be aware of...because it is justification (fantasy) and you know that road doesn't lead to reality.

A key ingredient for not creating resentment, building it into entitlement with a lack of respect is getting okay with not knowing what you don't know yet. I have no other way of putting this...so if DH59 could make it clearer, or someone else, please chime in.

We spend a lot of time as children fortune telling and predicting the future...feels safer, more secure, like we have control. By believing we know what we don't (where DJs originate), we quell our signals and emotionally manipulate (manage). As an adult, we KNOW the future isn't predictable...and we live. We know the past is unchangeable...and it proves we live. As children, we didn't.

You won't know until MrsR shares...same for her current stuff...her thoughts, etc...and she's sharing some of those...not all. You will see recovery as better than ever before in your marriage when both of you share your thoughts, what influences your choice of thoughts and beliefs, what you're working on, through, even around. When you can say, "I meant to hurt you with that remark." Radical honesty doesn't mean pain...it is our deepest intimacy. And funnily enough, hearing "I wanted to hurt you with that statement" doesn't hurt. Okay. Got it. You want to hurt back. Wow. What a relief.

Working towards this deep intimacy is what I believe recovery is...and you're right...takes time, fortitude, a lot of self-correcting (re-aligning yourself), two-hands on reality and owning your power and limits.

Not a battle...if it feels like one, then find the manipulation in intent behind the statements you make. Recovery is a heckuva lot of self-discovery. For both. Which I don't think is what occurred 12 years ago...and the wound remains...until it heals...all the way.

I didn't hold my DH's self-deceptive practices against him...I didn't focus on his lies after he shared he didn't even know anymore when he was lying to himself...like his intent wasn't to lie to me...just passed on the lies because he believed them. The clearer he got, the more he was honest...retracted, informed and owned. Through awareness over time.

I focused more on choosing not to believe until later, either. To accept his truth as just his. I don't buy in and I don't suffer, nor does my marriage, from a lie meaning anything more than the lie itself. I have my sources for the truth. And I don't think it's unreasonable or wrong...I do believe my DH doesn't want to attack our marriage, even when he wants to attack me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My choice.

Nothing here about even or fair, btw. It is what it is right now; takes what it takes...and you both choose every step you take (always have, always will).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

This is very true. I remember back when I was involved in my A, I would try to convince myself that my wife really didn't love me. Stuff like that. I also remember her telling me after I confronted her after her A. She told me that she didn't think that I would really care that much because she thought I didn't really love her.
Crazy stuff. Fo sho. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for the continuing support LA.