RB,

By the way...what happened to RockSolid? Would you consider, RockSteady? (Yeah, I'm old.)

Listen to HopeandPray here...projection isn't unusual and I believe this is projection.

What I want to respond to is your choice to lie to yourself.

Please choose differently.

"I think I a m coming to the realization that I will never really get the truth about everything."

When you think "never" or "always" or "ever"...you're not in your adult perspective...because we know those words are rarely real...very few applications to the truth. What they are is a signal you're hurting, you're in your more childlike perspective...so when I say you're lying to yourself, you're telling yourself that you've had a realization which wasn't real.

You don't know if you will get the whole truth. The heart of the wayward perspective is SELF-deception. Takes time and awareness over time, to really get to all the truth of what took place. Because the WS doesn't really know...still sorting through fantasy for the bits of reality.

WS's shut out the reality of what they don't want...that's the license which permits such abhorrent conduct. Hey, I was wayward...this isn't me labeling others. I experienced this. I shut out the reality that my DH loved me...proving to myself (justifying) he didn't. I shut out a lot of my actions because the shock of what I was capable of was too close to reality...might have broken my own fog.

After your A, did you identify all the whys, the trail, the justifications? Did you give all the details to your BW's satisfaction? Or could you even know what level that was because she didn't ask...and you didn't see her BS fog as protecting her from massive shock after shock?

What if you could truly heal from both, together? That's where we're going here. You won't get there, though, if you lie to yourself with knowing a future you cannot know. DJing the future for present reward.

And how is pretending to realize what you don't know a comfort? Feels like control, doesn't? Watch out for that...wanting peace at any cost...false acceptance. Good to be aware of...because it is justification (fantasy) and you know that road doesn't lead to reality.

A key ingredient for not creating resentment, building it into entitlement with a lack of respect is getting okay with not knowing what you don't know yet. I have no other way of putting this...so if DH59 could make it clearer, or someone else, please chime in.

We spend a lot of time as children fortune telling and predicting the future...feels safer, more secure, like we have control. By believing we know what we don't (where DJs originate), we quell our signals and emotionally manipulate (manage). As an adult, we KNOW the future isn't predictable...and we live. We know the past is unchangeable...and it proves we live. As children, we didn't.

You won't know until MrsR shares...same for her current stuff...her thoughts, etc...and she's sharing some of those...not all. You will see recovery as better than ever before in your marriage when both of you share your thoughts, what influences your choice of thoughts and beliefs, what you're working on, through, even around. When you can say, "I meant to hurt you with that remark." Radical honesty doesn't mean pain...it is our deepest intimacy. And funnily enough, hearing "I wanted to hurt you with that statement" doesn't hurt. Okay. Got it. You want to hurt back. Wow. What a relief.

Working towards this deep intimacy is what I believe recovery is...and you're right...takes time, fortitude, a lot of self-correcting (re-aligning yourself), two-hands on reality and owning your power and limits.

Not a battle...if it feels like one, then find the manipulation in intent behind the statements you make. Recovery is a heckuva lot of self-discovery. For both. Which I don't think is what occurred 12 years ago...and the wound remains...until it heals...all the way.

I didn't hold my DH's self-deceptive practices against him...I didn't focus on his lies after he shared he didn't even know anymore when he was lying to himself...like his intent wasn't to lie to me...just passed on the lies because he believed them. The clearer he got, the more he was honest...retracted, informed and owned. Through awareness over time.

I focused more on choosing not to believe until later, either. To accept his truth as just his. I don't buy in and I don't suffer, nor does my marriage, from a lie meaning anything more than the lie itself. I have my sources for the truth. And I don't think it's unreasonable or wrong...I do believe my DH doesn't want to attack our marriage, even when he wants to attack me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My choice.

Nothing here about even or fair, btw. It is what it is right now; takes what it takes...and you both choose every step you take (always have, always will).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

This is very true. I remember back when I was involved in my A, I would try to convince myself that my wife really didn't love me. Stuff like that. I also remember her telling me after I confronted her after her A. She told me that she didn't think that I would really care that much because she thought I didn't really love her.
Crazy stuff. Fo sho. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for the continuing support LA.

(Quoting from LA's post)


Rock, I know I don't have the whole truth about every part of the A, but I know I have the truth about the bits that I care about. The rest I am not now interested in. I have reached a point where most of it doesn't matter as much as it did even a few weeks ago. As LA says, it's all built on deception and fantasy. How on earth are you going to make any sense at all of that? I'm not even going to try, so I'm certainly not going to worry about it any longer. It was The Fog, pure and simple. I don't have a personal experience of the wayward mindset, so I can't begin to know what it's like, other than reading some FWS posts here, but I can APPRECIATE what must have been going through FWH's mind and ACCEPT that it's done and gone and it's not worth it (to me) to keep letting it get to me. I WANT to move on now - perhaps not too long ago I, too, was content to keep wallowing in the thoughts about it all. Felt comfortable and safe not to get too confident in the future. Now I just want to love and be loved, and that is what is happening, instead of the constant upsets and sleepless nights, which are no more (well, apart from last night when we had a horrendous thunderstorm!).


I'll try, although I don't profess to be an expert here - I've just been working on my own thought processes and coming to certain conclusions as to how I could move forward. Essentially, I think that at some point you have to accept the fact that some things are never going to be known, and to continue to expect the answers to these things will just build resentment and anger and frustration. It could be that the WS cannot put it into words themselves, even if they wanted to, and I have tried to give the benefit of the doubt. I knew by the look on my FWH’s face at some of my ramblings, that he would never be able to answer certain things to the degree that I was looking at them, and he was quite concerned that I would want more and he would be unable to give it. I considered my latest questions very carefully (earlier on I was simply throwing things about randomly and we were both becoming very frustrated), and some of them were still quite pointless questions, mixed in with some important issues (to me), but it was sometimes the WAY they were answered that satisfied me, not necessarily the answer itself. Hard to explain really, more a sense of satisfaction that H would be prepared to try, rather than brush it off as unnecessary. So even though I did not get comprehensive details, or answers to all the questions, I was satisfied with what I did get and vowed to let it rest at that. I thanked him afterwards, and we hugged, and all was fine with the world. It’s no more complicated than the fact that I simply made a decision that to have a normal, happy life again, certain things would have to be put into the ‘unresolved’ box and just forget it. I have had some issues trying to forget certain things, but really had to decide how important they would be to our recovery. Would it make a difference to my staying if I knew the answer? Would it help the rebuilding of our relationship? Mostly the answer to these questions was no – it wasn’t that important.


Talking openly and honestly about feelings, and expressing concerns without anger and resentment helped us enormously. I would ask if it was OK for me to get something off my chest, rather than getting uptight and exploding with anger, and we would sit holding hands and talk calmly. Mostly I would be crying! Sometimes it was all just my imagination running riot, but we managed to get through it without problems. I think this helped H to learn to react in a calm manner, rather than the impatient one he usually has, and he learned that he can say things to me without me getting angry at him, which was how we lived our previous lives, generally.

RockSolid, it's only natural to compare present pain to the last time you felt as bad. I do it too. After suffering a great, great loss, we are always amazed to find we could ever feel that badly again, yet, life being what it is, it does happen.

There is a saying that e-motion is energy in motion, and that you have to let it move, have its day. Sometimes I just lie down and let the pain come, do nothing to try to stop it. It does then pass for a while. And, eventually, it passes a lot more. This is different from just stuffing the pain, which is depression. It is grief.

Thanks for the responses.
DH, I too would love to just choose to move forward. It sounds so easy, but to me it really feels very difficult. It's definately is an eternal struggle.
Part of me wants to just let it go and move on, part of me wants to just stay in this rut and figure out why this happened. Stuff like that.
Part of me loves my wife and knows that we will recover from this eventually and part of me just feels hurt and betrayed and tells me the he** with this.
I'm really not sure what I need. I feel like I'm not really handling this as well as I should be sometimes.
Maybe I am addicted to my misery somehow.

Rock, it may sound easy, but I know full well that it's very hard. I thought it was never going to happen, too. Everyone's different. Perhaps you'll get it tomorrow, next week, next month. I was simply explaining my thought processes in the hope that you could benefit from knowing that there is a way out. But you don't need to stay in the rut to figure anything out.

I may be wrong, but from your posts, I get the impression that you are walking around the house moping in a permanent funk, and you are not having any quality time with your W. Are you talking, intimate, laughing and joking, or is it all just this doom and gloom scenario you're projecting? I tried to lift myself out of the depression for both our sakes. I knew that I wasn't a nice person to be with if I was in the doldrums all the time. It was a sort of 'fake it till you make it' attitude. Then the positive thinking just started to take a greater effect. In between all the affair books I read 'Shut Up, Stop Whining and Get a Life' by Larry Winget, the Pitbull of Personal Development. Most enlightening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I'm only in a funk for about 95% of the time. Otherwise I'm pretty good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
It's not just the affair stress. We've also got financial problems and my job has been very stressful lately too.
I think it's been kind of hard lately too because I am in the middle of a bunch of affair anniversaries. I keep thinking "last year about this time I was.........or she was........or little did I know, but.........."
There's also a lot of little triggers that have been hitting me a lot lately. That and constantly finding new "truths" to her stories.

LOL, that's OK then!

Well, you know, we have other issues too. Sometimes work, or financial, or health, or my menopausal issues. And I, too, have had a few affair anniversaries recently, with one still to come next week, but I am certainly not going to let this one bother me. These are the thoughts you need to try and bring to a halt. That is why everyone suggested you try ADs - sometimes they can make your thoughts a bit less fuzzy, enable you to sort through these issues with a bit more clarity. You need to concentrate on the GOOD things happening between you (assuming there are good things happening!). Look back over the past few months and remember the nice things that you did, and try to think only of those things when the other thoughts come flooding back. Eventually, you will do more good things to look back on. If there are no good things happening, then make them happen. Arrange days out, for example. Walks, bike rides, whatever you're into (and these can be done on a budget, 'cos we did stuff like that).

I remember a quote I saw some years ago, and it's been said in slightly different ways a few times here - (this is probably not the exact phrase) It's not what happens to you that shapes your life, it's how you interpret what happens to you. In other words, if you act defeated (by external influences), you will be defeated. Sometimes you may have to force yourself to do something against your feelings at that moment - I did a lot of that. I have to say that your W needs to be a willing participant in helping you, too. It sounds as if she is willing, to a degree, although the impression is that she has her own issues as well, and you seem not to be in any fit state to help her with those.

I will keep an eye on you from time to time, but I can't see what more I, or anyone else can say to help you decide to make the turnaround.

All the best.

I guess this pretty much sums it up. There's not much more I can do.
All the best to you too DH. Thanks for helping.

Again, you're not really taking on board the things you need to - you're speaking with a totally defeatist attitude. Also, I think you've read that sentence entirely out of context and I think you need to communicate more with your W and ask for more discussion about these issues. It seems you are simply jumping to conclusions and letting it all wash over you without any bearing on reality.

Sorry for the 2x4, but you really do need to take some control.

What are you saying about me and my recovery from what happened 12 years ago? I am confused. I owned up to everything that I did. I hate what I did, but I am proud of the way I fought for my marriage back then. The hardest part is trying to forgive myself yet today.
I hate the fact that I am always trying to defend myself for what I did back then. To be honest,I am getting tired of having it thrown in my face, or being told "well now you know how she feels,etc., etc."
To me it's almost like I'm defending this guy who isn't even me anymore. To me this jerk is long gone and doesn't exist anymore.
I'm not sure what I'm really trying to say here. Sorry, just got carried away here.
Do you think that neither one of us maybe never fully healed from my A 12 years ago?

Yes, Rock...

That's what I was saying...the healing involved...

You aren't that man. You stopped being that man who did that a long time ago. I wasn't pointing out cause...I was offering that both healing together may not have transpired in the way you may have thought it had.

And not knowing you both weren't fully healed would be reasonable...wouldn't it?

Here's why I think infidelity is so complicated...because when we marry, we are choosing our safe zone, our partner...and I do believe, like Harville Hendrix, we do so based on our first relationship...our FOO (family of origin)...so we can learn to be equal partners in a relationship...and a built-in is that our partner will not hurt us, they will help us heal. And we help them heal.

When infidelity is introduced, we are wounded...more deeply than we imagined...and by the one we picked to heal with...so it's doubly complex, isn't it? Even without the infidelity, we can quickly make our partners into our enemies in marriage...because we figured our marriage as the cure to what ailed us, deep inside...and when our partner exhibits those same elements we were seeking to heal from, well, that's a betrayal, too, isn't it?

And we go back and forth...teammates and enemies...which is working out what partnering really is...and when we hit that infidelity like a head-on collison, then it isn't just an event, just anything...goes down through a lot of layers...which is something new to heal interwoven with every other betrayal we've experienced.

I'm glad you fought to save your marriage...that you owned and changed. I don't doubt you at all. I wasn't throwing it in your face. You reached inside you and learned a lot. And your wife chose to stay, too. To live through and rebuild. Doesn't mean she got to all her stuff inside, does it?

And it's not tit for tat I'm speaking of...though, yes, the crux of "now you know what she felt" is to help you heal now. There's a whole other side...a way through...and your WW has the same struggles you did...with forgiveness...and if she forgave you fully back then...and now, the one to possibly be forgiven. With the added heft of knowing the decimation. And you, knowing how not to walk that destructive road and watching her mindset, her way, her choices...

Not as justice or karma or anything. Just what it is...right now. My prayer you'll both find the deep healing, the one you both yearned for when you came together, as well as from the new and old wounds you each have created. You both have the tools to share with one another...to partner one another through this...and to get to a place you haven't been, but always wanted to go. Together.

What I see as possible core issues are acceptance and rejection.

As a BW, she had to accept what you chose to do way back then in order to do her half and choose to stay married. Similarly, you had to accept what you chose to do way back then in order to do your half and choose to stay married. You also had to look inside and change. Did she?

Part of healing is mourning well and thoroughly. Knowing what you're mourning. Did she mourn the marriage which was gone, the pre-A one? Did she mourn losing her blind trust? Gut-knowledge she was first with you at all times, in all ways? The blind faith that no matter what, you would always get through anything, together? Maybe the belief of anyone on earth, you would do her no harm?

Can you see these issues now, for you? Stages of grieving...denial, anger, bargaining, sadness and acceptance.

They aren't a straight shot. We go from one back to another, to another. The final one is the one I feel is here, between you...accepting what happened...that we are capable as humans of this great destruction...and loving, anyway.

Accepting love can be as difficult as giving it, at times. Sometimes, moreso. A single act of kindness can feel like a spike to the heart...because our own undeserving, self-bashing punishments for what we did. We don't want to accept we are loved when we believe we must earn it...and surely, if ever we believe we don't deserve it, has to be when we come out of the fog and look at the bomb residue and debris. Doesn't say a thing about the betrayed partner there loving them, anyway, does it?

Doesn't say the FWS isn't lovable, either. Goes to a belief...which got them there...and which I believe you changed in your life and in yourself, Rock...didn't you? That you didn't earn your wife's love...for she gave it to you even after your betrayal of it...her choice. Your choice. And you have been loving her from your own choice all these years. You remained lovable...made from love.

So remains your WW.

And if we base our wants on what we feel...then are we being true to ourselves? Our feelings change, up and down, different ones, rolling in...coming to us from our thoughts, perceptions, perspectives and beliefs...our expectations, resentments, shame, guilt, and deep desire to be powerful enough to undue what we have done.

Would you consider when we reject our own feelings, our very selves, then we reject others? When we don't grieve well to full healing, we reject past actions, what we have done or what others have done, for 'if only' that hadn't happened...no acceptance of what is...or who we are?

What DH said is the real way through, Rock. To be able to hear her truth separate from the truth...to speak your truth, not make it the truth...to go to a level of honesty which may be what wasn't there before, from incomplete grieving...to get to true acceptance through radical honesty.

And to an intimacy deeper than you may have experienced...blocked by your own remnants of what you left unforgiven in yourself...or in hers. I dunno. I'm offering, not divining here. If what she feels defines you...then there's work to be done, isn't there? If what you think defines her...is that real? If accepting all of who you both really are, separately, and what you've both done and not done...reality...gives you clarity and connection, then, would you go there?

LA

“You both have the tools to share with one another...to partner one another through this...and to get t “o a place you haven't been, but always wanted to go. Together.”

The key word there is “together”. I don’t know if she is willing to really work hard at this. I’m not sure if she really wants to. I think her note to me that I posted here, where she tells me that she feels sometimes that she doesn’t want my love, says a lot.

“Similarly, you had to accept what you chose to do way back then in order to do your half and choose to stay married. You also had to look inside and change. Did she?”
I don’t know. I am left with assuming that she has. Maybe she has and just figures that I would know this. I’d like to hear her thoughts on this.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

“Can you see these issues now, for you? Stages of grieving...denial, anger, bargaining, sadness and acceptance.

They aren't a straight shot. We go from one back to another, to another. The final one is the one I feel is here, between you...accepting what happened...that we are capable as humans of this great destruction...and loving, anyway.”
Wow, you sure got all of that right.
___________________________________________________________________
“Accepting love can be as difficult as giving it, at times. Sometimes, moreso. A single act of kindness can feel like a spike to the heart...because our own undeserving, self-bashing punishments for what we did. We don't want to accept we are loved when we believe we must earn it...and surely, if ever we believe we don't deserve it, has to be when we come out of the fog and look at the bomb residue and debris.”
I’m hoping that this is what she is dealing with. I guess so, at least. I hate to think that she just doesn’t love me anymore.
______________________________________________________________________
I get a lot of what you are saying, LA. As usual, you have some amazing insights.
I am so tired of all of this pain. I keep trying to rationalize and figure out what it is I need to really move forward. I know that I want confirmation. I want to know that FWW is truly sorry, but more than that I want to know and feel her commitment to our marriage.
I’m not feeling much of that now. I guess, in her defense, maybe to her this is all she can give me right now. I’m not sure. She plays me like a yo-yo. It’s so frustrating. I’m pretty sure that she wants to stay in this marriage. I just figure though, if you’re gonna stay, then let’s make it a great marriage.
Maybe it’s me feeling selfish, but I feel that I am here for the taking. If she would only open up to me, accept me. I know that I can recover from this blow. I just need a little bump from her to get me over the hump, it seems.
I’m gonna keep trying.

Rock, I don't see you trying...

I see you doing.

Humans do and don't do. No try in there.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mind your mourning...you're on the BS side of it now. Maybe it will help you relate more to what she felt a long time ago. Gotta tell you, I found strength and resolve in earning my F in WS...and far more helplessness, anger, rejection and a lot more stuff as a BS.

Ask for what you want...confirmation, acts of remorse and amends...breaking previous patterns to break through to intimacy...and let go the response.

Draw your own lines, Rock. Set your code and act from it. Up to her to save her marriage as much as it was up to you to do so back when...half and half.

I totally understand feeling tired of all the pain. There is no other way without pain...divorce has that pain, too...it continues. Separation...you name it. Might have to be the road you take...so go for understanding your pain (part of the mourning).

I perceive one part of it which you are doing to yourself. You say you hate to think she doesn't love you anymore...as if it were a condition, something out of her control. You know differently. Where you hurt reaches for that false belief...choose a better one. Choose to believe she loves you...you've been each other's half for more than half your lives. That's reality. Ease some of your own pain from that reality...know she loves you...doesn't mean you're safe, cherished or protected. Means love is real. Focus on your choice to love her.

Which means picking up your heart you've been toting around in a gunny sack...and lift your own spirits. Permit yourself to speak honestly, with full connection, in those great "I" statements...act intimately...only takes you. Know you are choosing right now, not forever.

When I do these flipovers...like you feeling you're just here for the taking...that's part of the BS POV...and she had that once...instead of seeing her choice to stay there, offering. Which I see you as choosing to do...and having chosen to do.

I don't know where MrsRock is at, either. Only she does. I do know that getting to that great marriage you are both fully capable of, both feeling crazy in love with each other again, takes a lot of grieving, sharing and highest honesty. Mind yours first, 'k? If you have time limits in mind...speak of them. Share your boundaries, your desires, your fears. Share all of you.

Were you safe when MrsRock acted from her feelings? Based her choices on her feelings? Is she safer when you do? We feel protected by love because we believe our loved ones won't do us in--they love us! Ahhh...not true, eh? Because acting from our feelings is making decisions on second-hand information...we can have false feelings coming from false beliefs. No protection in that.

If you choose to NOT act from your feelings...rather to trace those signals back to the beliefs they are coming from inside you...then act from your beliefs...well, wouldn't that be the safest, most realistic, respectful choice?

And when we KNOW we love...know we believe and choose to act from our love...we have loving feelings as a result. Most of my life, I spent working on getting my loving feelings out of others...earning their love and saw it as filling ME up...not true. Not real. Not even close to healthy.

You will not be safe until MrsRock loves herself as much as she has loved you. I believe you learned to love yourself, Rock, over the last 12 years. I believe you learned to act on your love...do you believe you earned MrsRock back? Could this belief be shared...where MrsRock can't imagine ever being able to earn your love back? Is it a realistic belief?

You wrote: ". I know that I can recover from this blow. I just need a little bump from her to get me over the hump, it seems."

Have you shared that with her?

Now for redundancy...are you both getting the 15 hours of UA together as RC? Not TV or movies? Are you playing together? Are you dating weekly? Currently?

Be mindful of your own spirit...bravery and courage have their own reward...same for doing the right thing...and acting from love. What if you let these signals flow over you, drink them in from sipping on the reality that you are all these things...from your own choice? No "have to's" or "shoulds"?

You are exampling to yourself and your children that this is how to grieve, process life--rising to meet it...walking beside it...having it run you over. The difference between having feelings and not reacting from them. Not having them lead your life.

Shine, Rock. Thrive, anyway.

LA

P.S. Thank you very much for working at understanding what I meant before...sharing what your reaction was and then keeping at it and asking for clarification. That's why I believe in you and your marriage. That's what it takes, right there.

Rock-

I've not posted to you, and haven't followed your story deeply, but I do have one thing for you to think about...

Do you know WHY I think they say that it takes about 2 years for recovery?


BECAUSE of those 'anniversaries'. There's a down slump right at the one year mark precisely for that reason. Because you're thinking of those anniversaries...I think nearly all BS's go through this. I know I did. And I can tell you that you'll have another minor slump at the 2 year mark...but part of what you'll see then is "Wow, this wasn't NEARLY as bad as last time!".

This slump in this time on your part is NORMAL...and its probably temporary too. Keep that in mind, and it might help you deal with that a bit easier.

Thanks for your input OWL. I am trudging through the anniversary months right now. I've made it through a couple, but the worst are quickly approaching.
Thanks for the encouragement.

Mind your mourning...you're on the BS side of it now. Maybe it will help you relate more to what she felt a long time ago. Gotta tell you, I found strength and resolve in earning my F in WS...and far more helplessness, anger, rejection and a lot more stuff as a BS.

*** I suppose in a way I can feel somewhat of what she went through. I just feel that they really can’t be, or shouldn’t be compared. I don’t want to argue about who did the worst. I just know that I did more to let my wife know how sorry I was and how totally committed I was to repairing the damage that I had done.

Ask for what you want...confirmation, acts of remorse and amends...breaking previous patterns to break through to intimacy...and let go the response.
*** So you are saying that I should literally ask for these things?

I totally understand feeling tired of all the pain. There is no other way without pain...divorce has that pain, too...it continues. Separation...you name it. Might have to be the road you take...so go for understanding your pain (part of the mourning).
*** I realize this. What happened, happened. Divorce or separation wouldn’t take away the pain. I choose to stick it out, fight for what I know can be repaired someday.

I perceive one part of it which you are doing to yourself. You say you hate to think she doesn't love you anymore...as if it were a condition, something out of her control. You know differently. Where you hurt reaches for that false belief...choose a better one. Choose to believe she loves you...you've been each other's half for more than half your lives. That's reality. Ease some of your own pain from that reality...know she loves you...doesn't mean you're safe, cherished or protected. Means love is real. Focus on your choice to love her.

*** I assume that she loves me. She probably wouldn’t be around if she didn’t. She even gives me a glimmer of it now and then. It’s just for some reason she won’t, or is afraid to totally express it.

Which means picking up your heart you've been toting around in a gunny sack...and lift your own spirits
*** It feels like it’s smashed in a million pieces.

I don't know where MrsRock is at, either. Only she does. I do know that getting to that great marriage you are both fully capable of, both feeling crazy in love with each other again, takes a lot of grieving, sharing and highest honesty. Mind yours first, 'k? If you have time limits in mind...speak of them. Share your boundaries, your desires, your fears. Share all of you.
*** This goes back to communication. Which we are horrible at. It is so hard to tell if she is ever being honest with me. Sometimes I will believe she is being honest, but later I find out that it’s another lie.


And when we KNOW we love...know we believe and choose to act from our love...we have loving feelings as a result. Most of my life, I spent working on getting my loving feelings out of others...earning their love and saw it as filling ME up...not true. Not real. Not even close to healthy.
*** This is true. I base so much of how I’m feeling on if my wife loves me or not. I think she knows this and actually likes to toy with me and test me from time to time.
You will not be safe until MrsRock loves herself as much as she has loved you. I believe you learned to love yourself, Rock, over the last 12 years. I believe you learned to act on your love...do you believe you earned MrsRock back?
*** This is so frustrating. Other than the affairs she is a pretty good woman. She is physically attractive, has always been a good wife and a mother. I wish that she would think more of herself.
In my heart I believe that I have earned her back, I don’t know if she feels the same way. I mostly feel that way because I know what I have become inside. I am a committed husband who is in love with his wife.

You wrote: ". I know that I can recover from this blow. I just need a little bump from her to get me over the hump, it seems."

Have you shared that with her?
***So,again, actually tell her this?

Now for redundancy...are you both getting the 15 hours of UA together as RC? Not TV or movies? Are you playing together? Are you dating weekly? Currently?
*** Unfortunately, no. I would love to have a date night where we are away from the kids. At least for a little bit. Obviously UA is essential. I think that was a big part of our downfall the past few years.

Be mindful of your own spirit...bravery and courage have their own reward...same for doing the right thing...and acting from love
*** Believe me, I really base my life on trying to do the right thing.

Thanks for the support LA.

Yes, Rock...literally share, actually tell her...and let her response go.

Did you ask me what Alanon was, a ways back? It's a 12-step program for spouses of alcoholics...though the only requirement is that alcohol affected your life in some way...maybe a grandparent, friend, mother or father, child...and they don't ask you if you meet that requirement.

There's no interrogation, no forms...totally voluntary sharing...no crosstalk at all. They aren't out to sell a product...in fact, they forbid self-promotion of the program. In my own experience, I believe it's the best support out there for BS's...because it's for spouses of someone with an addiction...and from being present at meetings, listening, reading and sharing...you learn your limits and power...your real responsibility as a human...and most of all...how to let go the outcome and choose your results. It's about surrendering and inventorying...a lot of what I believe you've done in your marriage...and it's all for marriage, too...how to partner, not parent.

For me, it was how I broke my enmeshment with my DH...saw my own half of every relationship...and finally learned what it is to respect and act from it.

Total autonomy on meetings...an as-needed place where you know you're not alone, not crazy, not being done to...it is the anti-victimhood perspective cure. Not that I think that's you...just so many benefits I can't begin.

It's about forgiveness and ownership...our own place in the world and all about our choices. My SIL told me to go when DH was WH and I felt broken into a million little pieces, as well.

I didn't have a WS who was willing to do what it took to recovery, either. Not like me as a WS, either. I can truly relate. I don't think I could have gotten this far into recovery without Alanon because of that dissimilarity.

Another chord your marriage strikes in mine...a part of our downfall was no UA, kids first, no RC, no time to let our inner children play as they did when we dated and embarked in the early years of marriage. I hear you.

And ding ding on the honesty and communication for us, as well. I shared how I chose not to believe my DH was being honest...not for over a year and half (maybe more). I listened and repeated...and accepted he believed he was being honest. I didn't factor it in. I took what he shared as sharing. Period. I had my own ways of verifying NC, no other A. I let go and respected his choices were about him...and remembered how huge my own self-deception went...so that his honesty with me wasn't about me...and just listened my tushie off and shared my own stuff.

Again...those communication exercises were HUGE for us.

Still are...we now use them for emergency repair.

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You're in the roughest time...that first year...which is why focusing on your own self-care...prioritizing your UA time (especially as RC time) and learning how you can communicate...along with getting the support you need, is most essential.

What my DH did that mattered a lot...he went to MC/IC...and he kept going, weekly. I recognized his choice in being present...and he chose to do the communication exercises. He worked his own recovery book...I valued his courage in sharing...his fear was so great inside...sometimes, it still is...he's working on sharing, anyway.

I accepted his way wasn't my way...didn't mean it didn't cost him greatly inside to be present, go to MC/IC, make our marriage his priority (wavered and still does a bit), and chose to remain married to me. What I counted mattered equally to what he counted.

And I worked on me...got to my whys...of basing my self-image on how he reflected me...chose my actions (even speaking) based on his possible response...read my tushie off to understand ME...that was my fearlessness.

And these things resonate in me from your posts...that all you learned way back then has more now...full circle...for all of it...to get to a great partnership through being a great partner. I absolutely believe you do the right thing. I'm wondering how you determine all the tiny right things...to your own code...your boundary enforcements holding you to your own code...where you aren't crazy in love with yourself, your wholeness (not a million little pieces) and feeling thrilled with yourself.

Of course, I'm still working on my own habit of wishfulness as reality.

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I feel this urge to say to you, "Rock, LAUNCH yourself." Not even sure why.

And then there's what I don't see you understanding that I'm communicating about being a BS from your experience as the FWS. In being a WS, we can redeem ourselves. There's no redemption steps in being a BS, is there? There's not charted way...which is why I was blessed to be a BS right on the heels of a WS...helped me through the BS part...still does. Alanon was huge in that, as well. Owning just my side, not getting lost in the WS's side...and learning how to mourn well...grieve fully...what happens and even what DOESN'T happen. Unmet expectations require grieving...wishes not coming true...even seeing how much we wish instead of act in life...reality has a lot of daily grieving in it...short stuff, tiny...grieving what isn't as well as what is...so we can see clearly what really is before us, right now. And be present.

Without all the studying, learning, growing, I don't know how in I would have gotten through the last two and half years. I really don't. Highest honesty. I can't imagine...and I have a pretty active imagination. It's blank. This is where the similarities end for your situation and mine...you already did a lot of learning way back when...I didn't. I really didn't. Without it, I don't know what I would have felt, done or chosen.

Diversion/distraction is a tool we're given to be of aid to us...not in either extreme (then its destructive). Studying, reading, MC and Alanon was my healthy diversion...so my pieces could mend, pull together, breathe as one and keep going...keep being. And it was like fly fishing, pulling my focus off my FWH...his part, his stuff...his feelings, thoughts, etc. Ugh. So difficult.

So worth it.

Would you consider there is an important difference in assuming MrsRock loves you and you fully choosing to believe she does, without a trace of evidence or wishfulness?

Could it be after your A long ago that you fell back into enmeshment a bit? Where she reflected who you were and you reflected who she was and it felt like love?

How about judging her worth, which is what I heard, when you said she's a pretty good woman. Would you consider she's your equal in every way, made as marvelously as you are from the day of her creation...without a word spoken or an action taken? Her essence is love...lovable, whole, complete? So is yours...and that partnering is valuing, understanding, accepting and respecting this separate person entirely, not based on her actions? That she chooses to love you...which is what love is...and acts on it, or not...from choice. Not from anything you can do or say...because of who you really are?

Actions, we judge...they either are within our boundaries or cross them. Doesn't define the person...why? Because in our design, at any given intersection of time, we change our actions because our choices remain forever in the present. We can choose differently. You are a RWS (recovered)...you will never choose to cheat again. Your wife has that same choice. Totally outside your control. And when in a wayward mindset, totally outside your influence, as well.

That's from our human design...not you not being influential...because we are such autonomous beings that it is even within our power to allow or block off influence of others...or crack the door or throw it wide open. Our power.

Which is how I get that love is a gift...cannot be earned through our attractiveness, our goodness or our actions. And why we live in an abundance of love when we stop focusing on our lack. A choice.

You are not the cause, control or cure for anyone else on this planet...frightening to consider even with your children...for they choose, too. Getting really clear on this went a long way in healing as a BS. Has strength, clarity, acceptance and love right there...and it's a choice I made to believe and live from.

Like redemption within redemption...the way through when you are hurting so much from what you had no control of...where before, you had the control and the way back.

I am praying this will be a healthy comfort for you. You're not defective, broken, wrong or bad, Rock. Choose your path of healing and go for it...sadness is a healing emotion...embrace and know...wishfulness continues the injury. Where your focus is, there is your treasure. Stop treasuring what you perceive you lack right now. See if your resulting feelings change when you change your focus.

I believe in you. I believe in MrsRock...she is as capable and whole as you are. I believe in your marriage.

LA

Right...on...the...money...

Thanks LA. I am definately going to see about attending alanon. I did ask about it here a while ago. At that time I found out that FWW was hiding a drinking problem.
Thank you for all of your great support LA.
Just like MAZ said, I appreciate you more than you'll ever know.