I knew you didn't mean it that way, just from the context of the posts of yours I have read, but I knew someone else MIGHT misread it that way. I do think your position definitely helps you in understanding your FWW's perspective. I know my DH just couldn't get his head around it, still can't. He just can't see me as that person. I think he blames OM more, I blame myself more than DH does.

For some reason, just having a bad day. Started thinking about "stuff" last night. Thinking about how it was all a fantasy, I know it was a fantasy, I know OM was not a soulmate. I know this and I'm totally fine there. OM is POS. How was I that stupid? The problem is I feel like I'm mourning the death of the fantasy itself. Okay, it's getting hard to explain. But...I've always had that "fantasy" that the right person would make me happy, we would get along so well and meet each other's needs, yadda, yadda...I have to accept that there is no such thing as this fantasy. I know this. My happiness is up to me. My DH is being so wonderful and great to me. Yet, I'm mourning the demise of this lifelong fantasy in some way...I think. I'm not even sure. I'm also still pretty angry with OM and I can't even tell him off!

Maybe it's because I'm approaching the year mark, dunno.

NB, I did see your post, and I appreciate it. I did take time away from MB at one point. I started MB pretty soon after d-day and then took a break while I went through withdrawal and all. I came back because I want to stay grounded, keep my priorities in check, and of course keep improving my M.

I learn so much here. This place helps me keep my head on straight.

I know no one is attacking me personally. I'm just venting mostly at disappointment in myself more than anything probably. There are certain threads I should probably avoid. But it does feel good to have helped someone. I need something to feel good about

I tried some different boards before I came here and I was practically chased off by a few posters there who pretty much told me that I got what I deserved and other cruel things like that.
I don't think that some can actually recover or be remorseful about choices they made in the past. You made a lot of sense to me when you said that you seemed to be judged by the worst thing that you have done. I feel the same way.
Thanks for posting here. I like to hear the feedback from a FWW.

So MOM, have you ever forgiven yourself? I know that I haven't and I don't know if I ever can.I have been told in some past IC that I seemed to be racked with guilt and that I have to forgive myself and let go of my past.
I don't know if that's ever possible. I just feel that would be selfish to just forgive myself and move on. I owe my wife a lot for the pain that I inflicted upon her and to me to forgive myself would seem, I don't know, disrespectful. Maybe because I never felt truly forgiven by her. I don't know,

I don't doubt that you felt chased off, I looked at some others sites too, this seemed like the best place to be.

It's not just that I think others are judging me (which is just my perception and not reality) it's that I'm judging myself as well. And also, feeling like a fake/imposter in front of other moms, whoever, who have no clue what I did.

The pain of recovery far outweighs the good times had during the A by far. If those on the brink would realize this before they jump in, so much pain could be avoided.

I was telling this to somebody else here once that sometimes I feel guilty because my daughter looks up to me and thinks that I am so great. She doesn't really know the awful things that her daddy has done.
I beat myself up a lot over this.

Hey MOM, here is something that JustLearning wrote me once and it helped me a lot. I don't know if you've ever read it or not. Here it is:
_________________________________________________________



Rock,

I am going to repeat a story I have told here many times. It is a personal story, but I think it might have bearing on you and Mrs. Rock.

My father was a career military officer, a pilot. He fought in 3 wars. As kid he was my hero. Of course he was my father right? He was a leader and it came naturally to him. So naturally I respected him a lot. As I got older, he and I would cross swords so to speak, what teenager doesn't, but he was still my hero.

As I got even older, was in the military myself, I got to meet many of his old war buddies (the ones that survived), and I found out my Dad was not perfect. I learned more about his childhood, how he grew up, the depression, and that fact that he had his faults. He would tell me then as we became friends not just father and son, how many faults he had, and how he regretted many things in his life. Often even things he had no control over. In fact, as he got older and his health was failing, I learned even more.

But, what my father never understood was that as I learned he was not perfect, and perhaps not "heroic" as I thought as a kid, I became even more proud of him. Because I began to realize that he had accomplished alot in his life "inspite" of being human, with human failings. As this awareness came to me, I came to learn that it is not the failings that determine someone but how they overcome them.

Rock you and Mrs. Rock have failed in your life as we all have, but what will be the measure of both of your lives is how you overcome them. Rock, your W is human and she can learn, she can grow, she can overcome, just as you can. The measure in the end is what you two do with those abilities. How well you two seize this OPPORTUNITY to overcome failure and pain.

What you two are very likely to find is that you will become each other's heros, and it will be because you are human and can fail that it will mean so much. If either or you were perfect, the challenge and the reward would NOT be what it can be.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I like the part about, it's not your failures that you will be measured by, but how you overcome them.

I missed this post, we must have been posting at the same time. I couldn't believe you wrote this, I feel the exact same way. Like I shouldn't forgive myself, it's wrong. Like to be happy with myself is disrespectful.

I completely get what you're saying. This is the first time I've run across another FWS who expressed the same feeling I have.

I know in my case it is NOT due to lack of forgiveness from my DH. He has forgiven me. All of the things I was afraid of (having it thrown in my face during an argument, using it against me to get me to agree to something, feeling I didn't have the right to ask for my needs because of what I did, etc.) never happened. That's why I said I feel like I'm harder on myself than DH!

Isn't that crazy? The FBS forgives the FWS but the FWS can't forgive herself?

I agree. At least you have been forgiven. I really don't know or officially been told that I have been forgiven. What makes it official? We just never talked about it after awhile. Just like now with my FWWs EA/PA. We don't communicate at all.
I'm surprised that I am the first FWS that has expressed the same feelings that you do about not feeling right about forgiving yourself. It's funny because it's definately not that I'm proud at all for what I did. But I have no problem telling someone what I did in my past. I think it's some kind of self-punishment or something. To me it's like it's tattooed on my forehead.
I cannot express how much I regret what I had done. It seems like you feel the same way.

Mom and Rockbottom,

Have you by chance read any of FinallyLearningT2H's thread?

I would invite you to go on over and do so, if you haven't yet....we've been talking alot about forgiving ourselves.

You two are not alone in feeling the way you do....

Really, it's worth a read!

Now


I am a FWW-recovered

Interesting thread...I can identify with a lot of it...Mr. W and I were just talking about something quite similar...I was talking about always looking back on my life and having regrets...ALWAYS regreting the affair...FOREVER...How would it ever be possible for me not to regret? To me it seemed disrespectful to Mr. W if I were not to feel this way...Mr. W said that he would MUCH rather that I just be happy in the now...So that we can be happy together...Regret doesn't take away or change the past anyway, and besides, the past is the past...He said something to the effect of..."let's move forward from here and be happy together"...Made an giant impact on me...Hope it helps someone else...

Mrs. W

Well, tonight I attempted to talk to FWW about some things. It didn’t go very well. I know that she was a little stressed at work today, and our flooded basement didn’t make any matters any better. I really didn’t intend to get into it tonight, but it kind of progressed into a little session.
She asked me what more I could possibly need to know. I told her (referring to Joseph’s letter) that she holds all the facts and that I would just like to know a few more things to fill in some holes that were bothering me. I told her that I thought it would be helpful if we could understand more about why this happened so maybe we could prevent anything like this in the future.
All I would get was “Why did you do it”? I told her that I am fine with analyzing why I had my affair twelve years ago and that in fact tonight I would write down and try to list reasons why I think that I failed.
I just tried to talk. But she would start yelling and getting animate. She thinks that I am badgering her, but really I’m not.
I hope I did the right thing. She told me that she regretted dating other guys way back when we were going out as teenagers and that she felt left out. So (I know I shouldn’t have) I asked her if that was the lifestyle that she wanted now and if she wanted a divorce. She said no.
I told her that I cherished our history, but she seems to regret being so attached to me so much back then.
She told me that it bothers her when I am posting here at MB (although earlier she told me that she thought it was good, and even thanked you for your support in her post).
I asked her some questions that were bothering me.
I brought up some things that she had written in a note to OM3 and that set her off. She cried and told me that I was making her relive things that she has been blocking out.
I know that I probably didn’t do things perfectly tonight. I really am not trying to badger her. Honestly.
When I told her that I loved her, she told me that she doesn’t believe me (huh?) and that she doesn’t believe half of the things that I tell her. I don’t know where she came up with that.
Tomorrow is a new day so hopefully it will be better.
Just thought I would vent a little. Thanks for listening.
Rock

She told me that she regretted dating other guys


Oops, that was supposed to be not dating other guys

Rock,

You need to sit down and start writing your question out. Then write out why you feel you need to know. Then write out how this information will help you. Let it sit for a few days and review the questions and ask yourself "have I ask these questions before", if so what did I do with the information, why do I need to ask again.

In some ways you are badgering her, because she does not KNOW the turmoil you are in. I would ask you "did she treat you this way" when you had your affair? If so for how long?

Really in someways it does not matter. Just asking questions is not going to solve your issues. Further, you are supposed to be healing this marriage as much as she is. That does not mean you let obvious things slide but it does mean you have to have a plan and a purpose to your questions and actions. The only purpose she sees is that you are trying to make her "pay" for her affairs. If that is your purpose then keep doing what you are doing. If it is not when you start to ask your questions, do it in reverse. Tell her what is bothering you, then what piece of information you need to address this, and then ask the question. More importanly, ask her for her input.

Here is an example. " Mrs. Rock I keep having these unsettling thoughts about... I need your advice. How should I address them? I cannot seem to just forget them, but I know just asking you questions is not productive for me or you. So do you have any suggestions? I know you went through something very much like this, how did you handle it?"

Do you see this is about YOU, not her now. You are also likely to learn something you never thought you needed to know. Make the questions about YOU, not her. You will get further, and the answers may even help you.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Tell Mrs. Rock Hi! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hope she posts some more, I enjoyed talking with her.

Thanks for the response. I was hoping you were out there.
I did tell her that I wan't trying to badger her. I told her that I was just trying to let her know about certain things that were bothering me.
I see your point about writing out my questions. I'm going to try that.
Thanks, I appreciate your input more than you know.

I will tell Mrs Rock hi for you. She really thinks that you are helpful.
In fact here's what she had to say about your posts:

Boy this guy is very insightful. I like what he has to say.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and this:

This guy needs to be a counselor or something. He has some valid points.

Thanks for pointing that one out, I will check in there.

Rock,

I'm sorry about how things went tonight.

I have one comment. When she said she didn't believe you loved her, do you think it could be that she can't understand how you could *still* love her after what she's done to you? Seeing as how we are so familiar with guilt and all, just thought I'd throw that out there.

JL's idea is great. Remember she doesn't like to talk about it because it brings her face to face with the awful things she did. I remember having the same problem. It wasn't that I didn't want to talk necessarily, but I was so very ashamed and afraid I was just going to hurt DH more and more.

Mom

Rock,
I think you and your wife need to call Steve Harley. You two seem to be stuck in a rut. This can go on and on without really moving on.

With your past A and her with 3 of them I think a real pro may be needed at this point.

I guess I should just push everything under the rug and move on I guess. I guess recovery is just going to be me dealing with my pain. This is so frustrating.
I see her point of not wanting to talk about it because maybe she is ashamed or doesn't want to hurt me. I understand that. I am just trying to figure out some things. I know that everyone has a different need of knowing about what happened. Part of me would just like to, for once, know everything then let it all go.
It is definately a rut. All she will do is bring up my past and compare things. If she wants to talk about my past that is fine with me. I guess I just need a different approach.
One of the most frustrating thing is that she says that she doesn't believe me and that she thinks that I say some things because I have to.
She says that she hates having to come home everyday and has to worry about what kind of mood I'm in. It's just a mess. Why can't we just talk?
Well, today is a new day and another chance to do the right things. Sorry for going on and on.