She has various reasons to think of me as controlling. Some I think were very valid; others, I think were more about her just wanting what she wanted.
Some of the ones I recognize as valid;

One, was long standing arguments about her weight. I used to nag her a lot about, "well, if you're trying to lose weight, then you shouldnt be eating that.", kinda thing.
She would try all these various diets, but not stick to them. I would "help", except I shouldnt have.
[I've stopped doing that, for something like 2-4 years now.]

She resented me about the way I handled our money. She viewed me as overly tightfisted.. wouldnt spend as much money as she wanted me to spend, on "fun things". I'd focus on paying mortgage down faster, and putting stuff into savings.
This last weekend trip, was an opportunity for me to show her, that my attitude about that has changed as well. (it werent cheap!)

I complained about her cutting her hair short. a LOT. I really like it longer. She cut it anyway, but still complained I was controlling.
(the irony is, she was being controlled by her MOTHER. her mother keeps nagging her to cut her hair short. her mother likes her daughter to keep it horribly short, for some sick reason. Man-cut short. [personally, I think she's jealous, 'cause her her own hair is thinning, short, and horrible].
So when she's sick of her mother nagging her, she gets a hair cut.
It's ok for her mother to control her looks, but not me? sigh.)
I kinda gave up on complaining about her hair. But it's another long-standing thing she probably still keeps up on the board of "techie's attempts at control".
Interestingly, she's growing her hair out now, "for her brother's wedding in June". It looks quite nice now. She let me brush it like I used to, last weekend. i let her know how nice it looks now.

Probably a few more old "control issues", where I was indeed over the "controlling" line. But the main point is, I've stopped bugging her about that stuff. The things/choices I have realized are "hers", I have quit pressuring her about.

Because basically you've been in your plan A since at least July.

If she's not going to get that she can be happy with you by now, I don't think she's ever going to get it. If you've done a good plan A...it should have been effective by now. And if plan A was done right but has not realized the results you wanted (yes, the affair is ended, but your WW STILL shows no remorse, desire to return home, etc...), you follow it with plan B.

She's still cake eating...not in an affair, but cake eating in having you around to meet whatever EN's she'll let you meet, and still behave as a single woman the other 90% of the time. She's married when its convenient, and single when she wants to be. Cake eating.

And she COMFORTABLE with it. She's HAPPY with it. And there is NOTHING going on to convince her to change that situation.

If you've not shown her a good plan A...then you need to think about what you need to do better.

If you've done a good plan A, and there is no change in her...then the next step is plan B.

OK...there's my explanation. Again, good luck.

Reminds me of the old saying, "There is none so blind as he who will not see."

As Owl said, good luck.

Too much talk, not enough action.

You continue to try and apply logic to something that is ALL about feelings (from the WS perspective). Plan B (if it brings the WS back to the marriage) works on the WS's feelings.

I continue to sense your obsession. And with obsession comes control.

Obsession is all about control.

What have you done to make yourself more attractive?

A year of Plan A, and many months of her out of the house. You should have an interesting life, with passions other than your WW by now.

That is attractive. You do not seem to be working on this area of your Plan A.

If your WS decided she wanted to divorce today, I fear you would be in the same dark devastation you were in the beginning.

What about Techie's recovery?

Too much focus on your WW and not enough focus on yourself. Scary stuff that will hurt you more than you already have been hurt and in many more ways.

Well, that's exactly what I'm trying to do here.
Generic plan A description:
You're supposed to show in plan A, that you have chosen to make permenent self-improvements, that address the root causes of unhappiness in your marriage.

The Major root cause of unhappiness for my wife, was viewing me as controlling.

She has stated that she does not believe that this "root cause of unhappiness" for her, has been addressed, and has doubts that it is even possible for me to do so. Hence why this new thread of mine, for suggestions.

I think that the mini-talk she and I had on the subject, on the way home, was the most cooperational discussion on it that we have had, since she moved out. She expressed doubt about my ability to change... but she didnt just shut me down immediately after.

I'm planning on continuing to show her that this is a permenant change in me, on the control issues. The tricky bit, is on the stuff I don't see myself. I think that if she is willing to confront me about actions on my part that she views as controlling, like she did this weekend, then we will be able to get through it, either by us discussing it, and agreeing that it was not a "controlling" action, or by my agreeing to act differently in that area in the future, if it was a controlling action.

My biggest barrier, I think, is in her prejudicial view of my actions; "well, he was controlling in the past, so this action has to be an attempt at controlling me too".

I guess I need to be clearer, any time I ask her for something, that i understand she has the right to say no.

I didnt do that, when I asked her to leave the cellphone behind. Maybe if I did, .. even if she still said no... she would have felt better about the whole incident.

It's a little frustrating, because I did take SOME effort in that direction. I started the whole thing, with "I have a request", not "I want you to do ....".
Guess I need even more emphasis on the "request" side of it.

Your biggest barrier is that you take total responsibility for your WW's choice to have affairs and leave you.

Your biggest barrier is that you take all the blame, AND that you are trying to bring you WW back with conversations, not actions. This is obsession. If you were really working your Plan A, this would not still be the case. Plan A will restore your self-respect, and it will help you to become an attractive alternative instead of a pile of beat up dog chit which unfortunately is the road most likely taken in the beginning, without Plan A.

You are taking the "identify the areas where you may have fallen short" to extremes and exclusive of the other areas of Plan A, in my opinion.

You are dealing with a WS here, Techie.

You may have not been the best husband but taking all the blame for the failure of your wife to keep her wedding vows is not the way to bring any kind of recovery to your marriage. It is however, a way to stay in her life...but again, at what cost to you.

Please address my statement about obsession and how you are getting on with your life when you are not making yourself silly sick with rehashing the convo's between you and your WW.

And Techie,

I am not trying to beat you up, I am just worried that you are stuck.

Also I should add, I was very happy to see you posting on others threads lately as I believe it helps with our own healing and growth to help others. We learn as we teach, and vice versa.

It also takes us out of own sitch, somethimes much needed to help us get a better perspective.

I thank you for looking in on me Techie, You have opened my eyes to some things I overlooked and I wish I could attempt to give advice like you have but I haven't done as good of a job as others and you have - Hopefully I will get to a point where I can offer something to someone.

Just want to say I appreciate it - Good Luck to you!

Thank you, weaver.

I agree, I can get a bit obsessed with my marriage situation. I could use more balance in that area. I do try to focus on my boys when I have them, so that's a bit of mandatory "balance" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not sure I agree with your statements about, [color:"green"]
"you are trying to bring you WW back with conversations, not actions. This is obsession." [/color] .
For the record, in my 10(?) sessions with Steve Harley.. I dont recall him once suggesting I should take more "action". On the contrary.. it was all about engaging my wife in conversation/discussion.
For others, I think more "action" may indeed be appropriate. For my situation, it seems to mostly be about the conversation.
(although, you gotta admit, the weekend trip was a big "action", wouldnt you say? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )


I don't take total blame for my wife moving out, etc. I think that she'd LIKE me to take total blame for it. She tried to get me to say that it was all my fault that we aren't living together as a family, when I was admitting that I'd done things that had hurt her. But then I pointed out that she had put herself in a situation, day after day, that inevitably led her to have a romance with another person.
(ie: always spending all her time with one guy online)
That was a choice that she made.

She didn't reply directly to that one. In fact, she ended the phone conversation at that point.
But... a few days later, she told me that she was planning to "vary who she hung out with", or something like that.
Seems like she really listened to what I had to say, and is trying to avoid falling into that trap again.

That's why I still have hope for the discussion approach.

What I mean Tech is that you cannot grow with words/discussions, only with the experience of actions. You can read all the books you want, talk all you want...and still it will not become who you are until you bring experience to it.

If you are completely focused on your discussions with your WW, and not on becomming.. it is about obsession and not about change, or personal growth. It is too focused on her.

I'm sorry if that isn't making sense to anyone but me. I'll work on a better way of verbalizing.

By actions in your case Tech, because you are not going to Plan B, I mean things like the jogging we discussed. You need to develop a life apart from her right now to attract her attention to you as well as to actually become the person you need to become to make your marriage work this time (or next marriage).

You like to jog and so does she. Start jogging and invite her occasionally but not being obvious about it.

Create mystery. Create attraction.

Become a great person, not only for her but for yourself and your children.

You wanted to work on your social skills. You are beginning to do that here, I see. When you actively start to work on this aspect of your personality you start to respond to posters who trip your trigger in a kind and decent way.

You will invite those of differening opinions and personality to converse with you. I see you have 2long blocked. Apparently you don't like his posts to you, but I have to tell you all the posts I have read from him to you have been filled with kindness and a desire to see you succeed and become who you would like to become.

I think you are beginning to grow, and I really support that and it makes me happy.

2long wouldn't waste his time, or would Owl, or Noodle, or Longhorn (or all the others) if they did not see something in you.

When you have grown more, you will be most gracious and appreciative of all...even those who want to see a Plan B.

This is what I am talking about, when I say "more action and less focus on the discussion parts with your WW".

My FWW said the same thing after her A.

You know that is a funny thing too because once she started giving examples I saw her point but I didn't feel like I was a contolling person.

So she said for instance she had to ask me when she wanted to spend money. Not like 10 or 15 dollars but like over a hundred or so and I didn't have to ask her.

Controlling right? Sure unless you consider I never told her no if we had the money and our bills were paid. I did the finances so I knew how much I had in checking. So she asked me so I made sure we had the money then said yes.

After reviewing the finances I realized she outspent me on a 14 to 1 ratio over the 5 years prior to her A.

The point is that in some cases there is a reason someone controls certain aspects of life.

My FWW picks out my clothes and tells me what to wear. Controlling? No I am color blind and she helps get me dressed so I match.

The point is you have to separate out things like that.

Asking her not to use her cell phone isn't controlling that is you asking her not to be rude.

Now it looks to me is she is controlling everything and manipulating you by saying you were controlling in the past and if you ask her to do something you are controlling.

That is control by manipulation.

Good luck with that.

With the rest of your sitch I think weaver is making a good point.

My sig used to be "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

The bottom line is sooner or later you need to decide that you are too good for her and start acting that way.

Then maybe she will see that and want to be with you. Right now she has you chasing her down agreeing to whatever she wants and whenever she wants.

I want that deal. But I am married.

Thanks for the comments.

side question: i noticed in your sig ... D-day was 3 YEARS before "recovery started".

what happened in the bits inbetween?

(i checked your forum "bio" in hopes of hints. but no luck there. aww)

Good morning Techie, I haven't had the time to keep up but I wanted to let you know that I was thinking about you...I wish you well! Take Care!

(((Techie))))

thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tech

I will give you a condensed version.

What happened is somewhat compelex but easy. LOL.

I like you live in So Cal. My FWW had her A when I was nice enough to let her take the kids on a Summer vacation back east to see her family.

When she came back it slowly started becoming apparent about what happened.

So on D-day I was upset and wanted to know what happened. She spent that day and the next 3 years basically lying to me. Now the problem was I knew she was lying, she knew she was lying but she didn't know what I knew she was lying about.

What kept me ther while this was going on was that I have two sons. At the time of the A they were 3 and 7. She was A SAHM and primary caretaker. So after visiting a lawyer I realized I was hosed.

She would probably get enough custody to make it possible for her to move back east with my sons. Talk about insult to injury. Nice being a good enough provider your FWW can be a SAHM and it costs you custody.

The lawyer gave me the information necessary to start gaining more custody in the event of a D. That way my FWW couldn't move my son's 3000 miles away.

So I started doing what he suggested plus my FWW was doing things that would lessen her custody.

During that time I tried plan A with her etc. She was tied up in her justifications etc.

Then in about October of last year I decided I had tried enough and I was done.

I told her I wanted a D. We went to the MC and I told him I wanted a D. Then he saw us seperately I told him I wanted a D. He told me I was completely justified.

He told my FWW most of the stuff I say she did that hurt me, She shouldn't have done. Not just the A. Much of the conflict we have had was based on her actions or inactions regarding her A. He told her she minimized her wrongs and maximized mine.

Then we went to MC again and I said I want a D. It was the longest I went saying I want a D.

Now up until this point we had a little dance in which she still wouldn't come clean about her A. But based on what I knew the pieces didn't fit. The MC told asked if she would sit down one time look me in the eyes and tell me the truth. She said yes. Then after leaving she said no.

She said she had been over it a million times. The MC asked her if she considered any time she wasn't completely honest. She didn't answer.

So we left that one and she decided she wasn't going to tell me.

That is what started me saying I wanted a D.

I simply told her I know what I need to even think about moving forward with you. You won't give it to me. I think that says enough.

Now just to let you know I was also working to make myself better and try to figure out what my part was.

What I realized was my part was letting my FWW manipulate me into getting what she wanted. She called me controlling then after MC we realized she actually controlled our M.

I was a codependent, enabler with conflict avoidence issues.

Now I am less co dependent, I do not enable her distructive behavior and I do not avoid conflict with her just to keep the peace.

I am happier in this M as it stands today then I was pre A.

I am not sure about her.

I see her struggling when I do not back down or when I speak my mind. I see it bugs her that when she gets overely mad about something I do not take it on.

But today I am happier.

I think my FWW respects me now and I don't know that she did before. But I beleive that came when I realized I was too good for my FWW, or at least the way my FWW treated me.

I think you are the same.

Sorrry that was long.

Thank you for that. I appreciate that you took the time to "flesh it out". No need to apologise for being long <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I dont think there's a single bit in there, that I didnt find value in reading.

Sadly, there are some parts of your relationship that indeed sounds similar to mine. Yet also, much different.
My wife refuses MC, and she was the one who has already filed for divorce.

I might suggest that you add to your .sig, when you said you wanted a divorce. It fills in the picture nicely.

No problem.

I have followed your thread and have posted to you.

Most of the reason I don't post is I think most of the time I would be giving you a 2x4.

IMVHO your FWW has you beleiving most of the Pre A problems were your fault.

I understand taking ownership of your stuff and fixing it. But it requires two people do that.

I realized one thing when I openly took ownership with my FWW. She would sit down in MC and say he even admitted it was his fault. I then had to tell the MC no I said I took ownership of my part in that sitch. Not the whole sitch and certainly not fault. LOL.

Took a while for the FWW to understand that. Heck in some cases I owned 90% of it but she still owned 10% and vice versa.

If she doesn't want MC and she wants a D at some point you need to plan B her.

She is giving you crumbs and you are accepting them.

So from my lesson I will turn something around on you in one of your issues.

The Cell phone thing with her. You asked her if she was with someone else would she do it. She said yes. You object and think it was rude. I personally agree with you but it is neither here nor there.

I decided to think another way. If that person wasn't my W would I ask her out again if she acted that way.

I mean you take this woman out and she is on the phone and TMing others. Then you take her away for a few days same thing. Then you tell her hey I want to take you away this weekend, do you mind leaving your cell off or at home. I just want it to be you and me if I book this. That woman says no. Do you book the trip. Do you keep calling her?

I know I wouldn't. What I realized is just because my FWW was married to me did not give her permission to treat me like that.

Then I realized I gave her permission to treat me like that because even though I objected I didn't stick up for myself.

So decide if you are ready to stick up for yourself and demand to be treated the way you treat her.

With respect and dignity at all times.

Outstanding fnm...bravo.

I hope this is penetrating.

ditto Noodle

thanks for the thoughts