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The only issue I had is when this guy had some of these kids line up. No way I am going to be lined up...I know what is going to happen next.

I heard this from a coworker yes2rday at lunch. But I've not heard it on the news. Did this really happen? I haven't watched all the news, so I may have missed it.

-ol' 2long

Dont know if they have revised this. They said all day yesterday that many were killed "execution style." I guess we will know as more info comes out.


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No way I am going to be lined up...I know what is going to happen next. So do my sons and my daughter.


Just like when someone pulls a gun or knife on you in a public parking lot and tells you he will kill you if you don't go with him...

My DD and I have had several conversations regarding this. If he is nuts enough to approach you in public, imagine what he will do when he gets you alone somewhere?

Better to take your chances in the very beginning, because you have NO chance once he gets you alone.

Maybe schools should start having "assault" practices, right along with fire drill practices.

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MM,

Most of us civilians aren't trained to respond to situations like this....when it happens, we have a hard time wrapping our minds around the fact that it is really happening. That is why people freeze....I think there is just utter disbelief swirling around in their heads....who can act when you are trying to come to grips with reality, when you haven't been trained for that?

Very true, NOW!! That is why my children not only have been taught marksmanship and safety...but also tactics. I have taught them to react to a given situation. Such as, when they hear an explosion or something like gunfire, they now instinctually get down and seek cover. They dont have to think about it. They have also been taught to seek an egress route. To seek safety if possible.

Then, if cornered, they are taught to shoot to kill.

These are invaluable skills they have learned...because they would be better prepared for these types of things.

Now, I know many parents wont (or cant) teach their kids these skills. So, I really have no problem with them being taught in a class (kinda like drivers ed) all of this stuff before they would be given a carry permit.

But, at the end of the day...it is up to us parents to teach them how to handle these situations. We train them early on when there is a fire in the house or building. And what to do. We should also train them how to react to situations such as these...because they will never go away entirely.

And I refuse to let my children be victims!

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As if that isn't sad enough, I read in the paper this morning that a sweet little kindergarden girl was killed when the school's flagpole fell on her as her class was outside playing during recess.

I just want to cry today.


NOW

Me too!


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Maybe schools should start having "assault" practices, right along with fire drill practices.

I'm thinking this would be a good idea....sad that it has to be this way, but schools used to have drills to train kids what to do in case of a nuclear bomb, so why not?

Things aren't gonna get any better, are they?

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No way I am going to be lined up...I know what is going to happen next. So do my sons and my daughter.


Just like when someone pulls a gun or knife on you in a public parking lot and tells you he will kill you if you don't go with him...

My DD and I have had several conversations regarding this. If he is nuts enough to approach you in public, imagine what he will do when he gets you alone somewhere?

Better to take your chances in the very beginning, because you have NO chance once he gets you alone.

Maybe schools should start having "assault" practices, right along with fire drill practices.

Exactly right Weaver!!


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Maybe schools should start having "assault" practices, right along with fire drill practices.

I'm thinking this would be a good idea....sad that it has to be this way, but schools used to have drills to train kids what to do in case of a nuclear bomb, so why not?

Things aren't gonna get any better, are they?

When Jesus returns! Not before then.


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Maybe the military should off training to civilians? I would go!

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When Jesus returns! Not before then.



And I am hoping that is sooner rather than later!

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Maybe the military should off training to civilians? I would go!

Many vets run services that train civilians in protection and how to react to situations.


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When Jesus returns! Not before then.



And I am hoping that is sooner rather than later!

Me too!! How about today?!?! That would be nice.


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Maybe schools should start having "assault" practices, right along with fire drill practices.

I'm thinking this would be a good idea....sad that it has to be this way, but schools used to have drills to train kids what to do in case of a nuclear bomb, so why not?

Things aren't gonna get any better, are they?

When Jesus returns! Not before then.

Will he be teaching self-defense classes in BF Goodrich sandals?

-ol' 2long

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Maybe schools should start having "assault" practices, right along with fire drill practices.

I'm thinking this would be a good idea....sad that it has to be this way, but schools used to have drills to train kids what to do in case of a nuclear bomb, so why not?

Things aren't gonna get any better, are they?

When Jesus returns! Not before then.

Will he be teaching self-defense classes in BF Goodrich sandals?

-ol' 2long

Nah. Last I heard, He is coming back with a sword in His hand.


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Hmmm, I didn't know that!

I guess most people, me included, just always assume someone else will be able to protect them, and when they can't be everywhere at once, the authorities, police, military...whoever....gets blamed. So this has really woken me up to the sad fact, we all have to learn to protect ourselves, somehow!

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Very true, NOW!! That is why my children not only have been taught marksmanship and safety...but also tactics. I have taught them to react to a given situation. Such as, when they hear an explosion or something like gunfire, they now instinctually get down and seek cover. They dont have to think about it. They have also been taught to seek an egress route. To seek safety if possible.

Then, if cornered, they are taught to shoot to kill.

These are invaluable skills they have learned...because they would be better prepared for these types of things.

I really would like to meet you someday, MM. You and I have a lot in common.

I'm another one of those military dads who taught my kids how to deal with whatever comes at them. All of my kids know how to cook, clean, and sew. Boys and girl. They all know how to hunt, fish, and trap. Boys and girl. All of them grew up learning the same kinds of things that you've talked about. Marksmanship, safety, etc... Situational awareness and assessment, single person and small group tactics. Let me tell you something...it's a BLAST to get me and my boys out on the paintball field!! They don't talk or yell. They don't need to. They either know what to do, or how to communicate with each other with just a few signals.

All of them are martial artists as well.

I agree with the comments about what would have happened if several people had rushed this guy at one time. And had any of them been a MA, it would have increased their odds of survival and success. But not to the degree that one person with a weapon and the knowledge and attitude to use it would have.

Someone made a comment earlier about how 'most civilians aren't trained to react like this'. And I agree, and honestly that's one reason why these situations result in such a high death rate. Most people just CANNOT respond in any fashion when faced with this kind of threat...unless they've truly considered it a possibility and were taught to deal with it.

Realize I'm NOT saying anything bad about those poor victims of this whole event, or their families. I grieve for them, and pray for them all. I wish that there HAD been someone there for them that day, that COULD have done something to end the violence before it got as far as it did.

I taught and trained my kids to handle themselves in a like situation...and I pray every day of my life that they'll never once need to use that training.

Just like being a soldier. Most civilians don't think about what it takes to train every day of your life to perfect skills to deal with a situation that you pray with all of your heart that you'll never have to face. I just wish that someone could have been there for these poor kids that day.

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I'm never a fan of ignoring or glossing over something true because it does not fit my beliefs.

It's natural to look towards firearms when these kinds of events occur. A gun is a very powerful tool, and the requirements to get one are quite low. For example, when is the last time you read a headline "mad knife wielding student slays 33." Just as you can build a house faster with power tools than hand tools, you can kill more people with a gun.

Arguments that more guns would lower the body count don't seem to be borne out with empirical analysis and the logical arguments go both ways. Will total deaths go down because vigilantes take down the aggressor faster and will those same vigilantes deter violence? Or will the greater availability of guns make it more likely that someone has deadly force available when they get angry or snap?

All that said, the right to bear arms is necessary to protect us from the potential tyranny of our own government.

Sometimes liberty carries a very high price. It sure did yesterday.

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I'm never a fan of ignoring or glossing over something true because it does not fit my beliefs.

It's natural to look towards firearms when these kinds of events occur. A gun is a very powerful tool, and the requirements to get one are quite low. For example, when is the last time you read a headline "mad knife wielding student slays 33." Just as you can build a house faster with power tools than hand tools, you can kill more people with a gun.

It is true you can kill more people with a gun. The issue is, who has the guns? Bad people will always have them! Bad people dont obey gun laws! The only people obeying the gun laws are the good people. And the good people dont kill 32 students at a university.

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Arguments that more guns would lower the body count don't seem to be borne out with empirical analysis and the logical arguments go both ways.

Actually, empirical evidence shows that guns in the hands of the good actually result in less deaths and vilent crimes. And more bad guys assuming room temperature.

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Will total deaths go down because vigilantes take down the aggressor faster and will those same vigilantes deter violence?

Of course! If someone had shot this guy in the first room he entered, he wouldnt have made it to the other ones!

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Or will the greater availability of guns make it more likely that someone has deadly force available when they get angry or snap?

Nah. Guns are already available to anyone that wants one. Bad guys can get them no matter what the laws are. Anyone remember the woman that took her car and ran over her husband several times with it when she caught him cheating on her? Anyone want to limit the sale of cars, because the availability means that a person who is angry or snaps can use it as a weapon?

How about fertilizer? Or gasoline? Or anything else that can be made into a bomb? Timothy McVey used that stuff and killed a lot of people! We want to ration all of these things because some looney will end up blowing something up?

How many of our freedoms will have to be given up until we feel safe? Personally, I am for taking away the bad guy's freedoms...namely his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

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All that said, the right to bear arms is necessary to protect us from the potential tyranny of our own government.

Sometimes liberty carries a very high price. It sure did yesterday.

Yes it does Mebe!!


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Good points Owl! And good to see you showing your kids all of these things. I too hope they never have to use them!!


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Arguments that more guns would lower the body count don't seem to be borne out with empirical analysis and the logical arguments go both ways.

Actually, empirical evidence shows that guns in the hands of the good actually result in less deaths and vilent crimes. And more bad guys assuming room temperature.

Sociologist John Lott conducted an exhaustive, 20-year study, and published his findings in the book "More Guns, Less Crime".

The evidence shows that when law-abiding citizens are allowed to carry guns, the amount of gun violence drops. This holds true not only in low-crime suburban areas, but also in higher-crime inner city areas. In fact, the areas which previously had the highest crime rates demonstrate the greatest drop in gun violence rates.

There is no comparable study anywhere showing that gun control actually works.

In fact, gun violence in Britain is increasing at a very rapid pace, despite the fact that handguns are illegal over there.

Just a few empirical points...


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All you gun nuts answer me this:

Why won't you apply the same logic to providing sex ed and birth control for your kids? Hmmmm? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Oh, because it'll "promote" sexual promiscuity? Yet teaching them how to use guns won't promote their non-lawful use?

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Here we go again. Now there'll be another media blitz trying to convince everyone that we need more gun control...that it is the evil handgun that did this obscene act. There are already calls for the “assault weapons ban” to be reenacted into law. Never mind that law never did cover 9mm or 22mm pistols. Oh, how about passing a law against “large capacity clips?” That would have saved everyone, they’re saying.

Huh? How ignorant are these people? Making a killer change magazines (they aren't "clips," though a newspaper moron will never understand the difference) more often in his killing spree is the solution? Never mind too that the killer would simply ignore such a law or any numbers of new ones. Killers are, by definition, people who ignore laws! What is it that gun control advocates do not understand about that?

Come on, the guy who did this was the incarnation of pure evil. He hated America just as much as muslim terrorists do. The note this fool left railed against "rich kids" and "the debauchery" of America. He killed his girlfriend and then decided to get even with all those people who had more than he did (and whose girlfriends weren't leaving them behind?).

Face it. This guy was going to kill, and no additional gun control law would change that, but the gun control freaks will surely try to convince us it would. They won’t see that there are already laws against his ultimate act, murder, and the unlawful use of firearms. Is that not correct? This South Korean ignored that law. The Commonwealth of Virginia passed a law against carrying a weapon on campus. Did he comply with that? Come on. Think logically. How in the world can anyone believe another law against carrying a weapon would have had any effect on this deranged idiot whatsoever?

It wouldn’t, but that won’t stop gun control freaks and the media, among others, from trying to take legal weapons from the overwhelming majority of American gun owners who wouldn’t even think of committing a crime. Those law-abiding Americans want only to be able to DETER a crime. That’s why those Americans carry weapons, you know…to protect themselves against those who would commit crimes against them.

Think about it! Had any of those kids who lined up in that classroom (cooperating so nicely in their own murder) instead pulled out a weapon he/she was familiar with, trained to handle and proficient in its use…well, there’d be one more crazy guy dead on the floor waiting for the cops to arrive.

Mark that clearly. There aren’t enough cops in the world to protect every citizen every minute of every day. It isn’t even remotely possible. When there aren’t any police around, citizens must take on that responsibility for themselves. What could be clearer and simpler? The Second Amendment in the finest Constitution in the world was placed there for exactly that reason.

As for me, I’ll keep on carrying my gun with me wherever I go and I’ll use it to protect myself, my family, and others around me if, and when, the opportunity unfortunately comes my way. Like MM, Owl and others, I spent 26 years in uniform to protect this nation from foreign enemies. I can do no less for enemies of the domestic variety. For those who would have me stand meekly in a line waiting my turn to take a bullet in the brain, I have only contempt. That may be all right for them but, frankly, that’s not the American way.

(Edited to correct grammar.)

Last edited by Longhorn; 04/17/07 11:18 AM.
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