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I was once involved in a similar situation. Nut job gunman gunning people down for no good reason. Here are some things about what it was like.

1) I am ex military and am familiar with guns, gunfire, the noise and the smell. But I was AMAZED looking back at how long it took me to identify that it was actually gunfire I was hearing. It was at the workplace, and I did not expect to encounter that. When you are deployed, you are at the ready, so you don't have that delay. I even grew up in a rough city and had been around 3 shootings before I was 18 and "sort of" expected it because of where I had chosen to go. Now, I worked in a factory and there were lots of loud noises similar to gunfire, but all in all I lost lots of precious seconds coming to grips with what I was witnessing.

2) If I were armed, I would have stopped they guy. No question in my mind. I had a perfect opportunity to stop him. I took more time to assess the situation and look for a weapon. There was plenty of heavy stuff around - but it was too heavy to lift. Gunman was too far away. Opted to alert fellow workers and clear a section of the factory.

3) There really wasn't fear until after. It was shock until the realization of what was happening dawned, then adrenaline got me moving.

Having experienced it, it is not surprising to me that even on the same floor, people would not necessarily flee in panic as soon as the first shots were fired. This kind of thing doesn't happen "here" in the US, so the brain can dismiss it with a sentence of "Can't be gunshots, not here, let's get back to the lesson...." If the guy was only reasonably quick on his feet, it would be easy to kill as many as he did. You know the old adage that a running man can slit 1000 throats in one night? It implies "sleeping" but can also mean "complacency." Ask anyone who has been in a defensive position for a long time. Weeks and weeks of nothing happening, and the guard drops.

All in all - it was much harder to come to grips with as an experience than Pick-a-stan. It was just too surreal, too "wrong." At some level, one can understand war. And the military gives you training, you talk about it, simulate it, so you are kind of prepared.

Not this, though.

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Glock 9mm holds 17+1 unless you get the special clip, then it is 19+1.

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Just read the latest online news about the package the gunman mailed 2 NBC.

Man, that guy was bark staving ronkers!

Where did the notion he was being "hurt" ever come from? Maybe it's in the package somewhere.

-ol' 2long

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Of course there is going to be debate over the should of, would of, could of aspect of this heinous act. And, the sorrow and sadness is astronomical. Yet...this discussion is necessary for the knowledge gained to assist in deflecting another massacre of this magnitude...so help us, God!

I'd like to add that I wholeheartedly agree with our posters with military backgrounds!

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Just up the road from VT...a few years ago...they handled a similar situation correctly!!

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In 2002, at the Appalachian School of Law just up the road from Virginia Tech, a Nigerian student, who had flunked out, returned to campus, murdered three people and wounded three others. Fortunately, his killing spree was interrupted by two students who had retrieved handguns from their vehicles and held the murderer at gunpoint until police arrived.

And the difference at VT...
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last spring Virginia Tech admonished a student for
having a handgun on campus---never mind that the student had a state-issued concealed-carry permit.

That admonishment was a motivating factor behind a proposed bill before the Virginia legislature to prevent academic institutions from enacting "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed-handgun permit... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation died in committee, prompting Tech's associate vice president, Larry Hincker, to praise the General Assembly in a Roanoke(Virginia) Times op-ed: "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus. We believe guns don't belong in the classroom. In an academic environment, we believe you should be free from fear."

A month later, there was a murder near Tech's campus, prompting a lockdown.

In response, Tech grad student Bradford Wiles penned an op-ed in the campus paper calling on the school to allow those with concealed-carry permits to carry guns on campus should they choose.

Larry Hincker emerged again, protesting, "[i]t is absolutely mind-boggling to see the opinions of Bradford Wiles. Surely, [the editors] scratched their heads saying, 'I can't believe he really wants to say that.' Guns don't belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same."

Congratulations Mr. Hinkler. Your "sound policy" created a "safe campus" for only one student---Cho Seung-Hui---who was able to slaughter 32 people without interruption.


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Just read the latest online news about the package the gunman mailed 2 NBC.

Man, that guy was bark staving ronkers!

Where did the notion he was being "hurt" ever come from? Maybe it's in the package somewhere.

-ol' 2long

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction here:

I think it will eventually come out that this guy was sexually molested and maybe even tortured as a child. I believe the news kept saying he was raised by a stepfather - no word on where the bio-dad is/was. It could have been the stepfather who molested him or just that the stepfather failed to protect him from the molester.

There was also an interview with a great-aunt still living in Korea who says that boy was never right, that he never spoke, that they all know something was seriously wrong with him but either didn't know what to do about it or simply tried to ignore it.

The great-aunt said that once the family moved to the USA when the boy was 8, they were told he was autistic, but whether he ever got treatment for autism or anything else I have not heard.

Seems to me that a child this cold and withdrawn, who is known never to speak, might make the perfect target for a predator - kind of like Tommy and Uncle Ernie.

I think that the "you" he keeps referring to in his taped diatribe is the molester and/or the stepfather, and I'll bet the "spoiled rich kids" he talks about are not the other students but his older siblings whom he may have felt were favored and treated much better than he was. He has at least one older sister who went to or is going to Princeton, a very very expensive school. I don't know if this sister is a full sister or is the stepfather's child from an earlier relationship. Either way, something could have made him feel that they were favored and he was not.

Edited to add: For whatever reason - cultural, personal, whatever - he did not feel he could strike back at his own family, so he took it out on his "extended family" - the university students. He didn't go to a shopping mall, or to some other school, or stand by the side of a highway shooting total strangers. This was done in his own house, so to speak, to people who in a sense were his brothers and sisters and even parents (professors and instructors were also killed and injured).

I'd sure like to know why he zeroed in on that girl in the dormitory the very first thing. Did she remind him of his sister somehow?

I could be wrong, of course, but that sure it how it all strikes me. Your mileage may vary.

I hope that if nothing else, the laws can be changed so that someone who is not just "a little weird" but clearly has a whole list of abnormal behaviours going on can get the help they need and the rest of us can be protected from their madness, no matter what its cause.
Mulan


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I am posting again here ONLY because I am a Va. Tech alum and, as a result, the events of this week strike very close to home. I spent many, many, many hours in Norris Hall.

It's a narrow minded view that permitting concealed weapons throughout society will have an overall net benefit, IMHO. Sure, it's an easy conclusion that had an armed student of faculty menmber been present in any of the Norris Hall classrooms that the carnage very well would have been lessened. But at what expense all the rest of the time that these weapons would have been readily available? And don't give me that sophomoric logic that if we ban handguns we'll also have to ban diesel fuel and fertilizer because of Ok. City.

Consistent with the logic to permit unrestricted gun toting, here's my solution for decreasing haghway fatalities:

Eliminate all speed limits.

This way, drivers can drive as fast as they want and arrive at their destinations sooner. Thus, their time on the road is decreased and their "exposure time" for being involved in an accident is less.

Same logic, huh?

Until we remove easy access to guns in our society, we will remain less civilized than we could be.

JMHO

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Some of the numbers out there on the causes of homicide are interesting.

There are about 10000 homicides using guns in the USA each year.

About half occur during "arguments" as judged by the U.S. Dep't. of Justice, though I'd have to get the actual data to know for sure about this number.

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About half occur during "arguments" as judged by the U.S. Dep't. of Justice, though I'd have to get the actual data to know for sure about this number.


In my neck of the woods, guns are almost considered as common as pickup trucks...and we have had several children accidently killed, by either playing with their own gun or playing with their parents guns.

We have also had teenage suicides by guns...I wonder if no easy access to gun...

We have also had young people killed at parties during heated arguments.

And spouse's killed during heated arguments.

I personally hate guns, and so am very glad to see that not everyone on this board is pro gun.

It may behoove all to study what makes a country like New Zealand so safe, instead of studying how we can become even more violent to keep ourselves safe. That makes no sense to me.

However, I do agree with the concept of teaching kids (and ourselves) how to react in the face of violent assault and reduce their risks of getting killed.

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Anyone here old enough or crazy enough to have read Robert Heinlein's "Red Planet"?

If so, does anyone remember the FIRST step that was taken to end the colonist's freedoms?

Just a thought, if anyone out there had read it and might have seem some parallels. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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I am posting again here ONLY because I am a Va. Tech alum and, as a result, the events of this week strike very close to home. I spent many, many, many hours in Norris Hall.

I just wanted to say that all Virginians are taking today to mourn the losses at VT. Including myself.

Quote
It's a narrow minded view that permitting concealed weapons throughout society will have an overall net benefit, IMHO. Sure, it's an easy conclusion that had an armed student of faculty menmber been present in any of the Norris Hall classrooms that the carnage very well would have been lessened. But at what expense all the rest of the time that these weapons would have been readily available? And don't give me that sophomoric logic that if we ban handguns we'll also have to ban diesel fuel and fertilizer because of Ok. City.

Why is the opposite position "narrow minded" but when it raises problems usingthe same logic with your position, then those onjections are "sophomoric?"

I know you were stating that this was "IMHO" Wat...and I have no problem with that. The problem I have is that those have taken the opposite position have proven that the fears you have expressed here are almost entirely without merit...while the use of guns for good has prevailed in most instances...just like the Appalachian State U. example above.

Now...at what expense will allowing law abiding adult citizens to carry weapons that are their right by the Constituion? Well, the expense, as noted by researchers and government statistics, is that there will be less violent crime, less severity in the crimes (such as the ASU example). That actually isnt the cost...that is the benefit!!

This guy was a nutjob. Everyone knew it! And it had nothing to do with gun control. We needed to control the nutjob!! One way to do it was to lock his butt up when they noticed he was a nutjob. The second is to be prepared to put a few full metal jackets in him to help him assume room temperature.

All of the statistics show that allowing citizens to carry guns (and when is it the government's right to ALLOW me to have my rights? I am the one (and a few hundred million others) who allows the government to do what it does...it doesnt ALLOW me to do anything!) will actually lessen crime and instances such as VT. These are facts.

Some fear "well, these are 18-19 year olds...we cant trust them. Afterall, they are all getting drunk, etc. And then they might do something stupid." Oh really??? So what about all of those 18-19 year olds serving in the military? I guess I need to confiscate their weapons before they get drunk and do something stupid!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

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Consistent with the logic to permit unrestricted gun toting, here's my solution for decreasing haghway fatalities:

Eliminate all speed limits.

Actually, that is not consistent with the logic at all! Using highway fatalities, then to decrease them...these people would want a 5 day waiting period before buying cars!!

Quote
This way, drivers can drive as fast as they want and arrive at their destinations sooner. Thus, their time on the road is decreased and their "exposure time" for being involved in an accident is less.

Same logic, huh?

Nope. Not the same! You need to look at it again. And while you do, let me give you some logic that is the same as the arguments being presented here:

Suggesting that mass murder is a "gun problem" ignores the real problem---murderous pathology and the culture which nurtures it. (See the Congressional Testimony of Darrell
Scott, father of Rachel Scott, one of the children murdered at Columbine High School.)

If guns cause homicides, then one may, by logical extension, draw the following conclusions about causal factors for the top U.S. mortality groups: golden arches cause heart disease, cigarette lighters cause cancer, sex causes abortions, steering wheels cause car accidents, toxic-warning labels cause poisonings, ladders cause falls and bottles cause deaths associated with alcohol abuse.

Of course, by way of this liberal blameshifting logic, one may also conclude that commercial jets and truck bombs cause buildings to collapse, 90210 causes 9/11 conspiracy theories, freedom causes tyranny, beards cause terrorism, SUVs cause global warming, White House interns cause infidelity, saying "no" causes rape, chains cause slavery, matches cause arson, cameras cause pornography, sporks cause obesity, marriage causes divorce, crowbars cause burglary, credit cards cause bankruptcy, elections cause corruption, 24-hour news-cycle talkingheads cause ignorance, ad nauseam...


Quote
Until we remove easy access to guns in our society, we will remain less civilized than we could be.

JMHO
I respect your opinion. Just saying that the studies, statistics, etc of our nationa...and history...dont bear out your argument!

My rights and yours, and our liberties are all protected...not by the Constitution...but by the barrel of a gun. A government that does not fear its citizens, can do whatever it wants!! What is to stop it??

We in the country think we are special...unique. We think that all of history made mistakes with their nations...but we wont here. That tyranny cannot happen here. That our nation cannot be taken over by dictators.

That is the height of arrogance...and is plain wrong! YOU are responsible for protecting your own rights. And the first right you have is life! It is your responsibility to protect it. Not the police. Not the VT president. Not the military. YOU are responsible for protecting all of your rights!

Now...how you gonna do that against an attacker with a gun? How you gonna do that against a government that forgets its moorings and becomes tyranical...and has millions of weapons...when you dont have a gun?

Our Founding Fathers were proud British subjects. But the government began to become tyrannical. And as our Declaration states..."when in the course of human events...", sometimes it is time to step up. If those guys didnt have their own arms...they would have had no ability to do so!!

WAT, it is too shortsighted to just blame guns. Actually, if you take out all of the deaths where gangbangers and druggies are shooting each other...the homicide rate is about the same in the U.S. as it is in "civilized" western Europe.

The reason our murder rate is so high is not firearms...it is bad people. We should be concentrating why they are bad, how to fix it...and how to get rid of these evil people...rather than blame the tools used by them. Because at the end of the day, the tool is used overwhelmingly more times for good in the U.S. than it is for bad.


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Robert Heinlein's "Red Planet"?


Hey, that's a coinkdinky, I think I just saw a quote from there.

I work at a border where we have at least 50 armed officers on at most times, and I have worked here for 20 years. They are trained constantly in defense, and even have a weopons room that would knock your socks off...

and do you know that not once has a shot been fired here. Not once. Except for that time when an officer shot his wife in the gut with a shot gun and then shot himself in the head with the gun he carries for work.

My point is, that these guys are trained to NOT use their guns and then if they have to, how to use them as effectively and safely as possible. And guns belong in the hands of those trained, trained and then trained some more in keeping the peace.

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Some of the numbers out there on the causes of homicide are interesting.

There are about 10000 homicides using guns in the USA each year.

About half occur during "arguments" as judged by the U.S. Dep't. of Justice, though I'd have to get the actual data to know for sure about this number.

GC

Please do...I would be interested in seeing it.


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Robert Heinlein's "Red Planet"?


Hey, that's a coinkdinky, I think I just saw a quote from there.

I work at a border where we have at least 50 armed officers on at most times, and I have worked here for 20 years. They are trained constantly in defense, and even have a weopons room that would knock your socks off...

and do you know that not once has a shot been fired here. Not once. Except for that time when an officer shot his wife in the gut with a shot gun and then shot himself in the head with the gun he carries for work.

My point is, that these guys are trained to NOT use their guns and then if they have to, how to use them as effectively and safely as possible. And guns belong in the hands of those trained, trained and then trained some more in keeping the peace.

Well, they belong in the hand of law abiding Americans. Tha tis what the Constittution states.

But yo uare right about one thing...they dont try to use their weapons to kill. Only if they have to. Which is PRECISELY what almost all gun owners do in the United States. And which is EXACTLy what those two students did at Appalachian State University did when they ran to their cars, got their weapons, confronted and disarmed the nutjob. They didnt shoot him up. They didnt spray bullets, killing innocent bystanders. They simply put this guy into a position to make a decision...to drop my weapon or to be filled with holes. And then he chose life...dropped his weapons...and then the guys jumped him and held him until police arrive (which is when they usually are on the scene of the crime...after it is over!).

By all accounts that some want today, those two students broke the law and university policy by carrying their guns into a "gun-free zone." They shouldnt have been labeled "heros"...they should have been prosecuted for weapons charges!

Afterall, if some people in our society had their way...they wouldnt have even had those weapons in their cars!


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I may get the data and improve the precision a little. I forgot to mention that murders judged to be gang-related are not included in the "argument" category.

I'm not interested in arguing any position using those data. I just want a clearer picture myself of what's happening out there. The "argument" category piqued my interest, since it gets to a million other questions.

I will only share the number of justifiable homicides that occur each year privately! It would probably be inflammatory.

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My point is, that these guys are trained to NOT use their guns and then if they have to, how to use them as effectively and safely as possible. And guns belong in the hands of those trained, trained and then trained some more in keeping the peace.


And who have had psychological testing before getting one.

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A quote from a great American:

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"You won't get gun control by disarming law-abiding citizens. There's only one way to get real gun control: Disarm the thugs and the criminals, lock them up and if you don't actually throw away the key, at least lose it for a long time... It's a nasty truth, but those who seek to inflict harm are not fazed by gun controllers. I happen to know this from personal experience." ---Ronald Reagan...who was shot by the nutjob Hinkley


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MM, do you agree that a much longer waiting period, more training and psychological testing should go along with the right to bear arms?

Do you at least agree that it is too easy to get a permit for a concealed weapon?

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Anyone want to guess what the largest school massacre was in the United States (since all of the press is reporting that this weeks tragedy at VT is the largest)?

Second question...what weapon did the murderer use to do the crime?


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MM, do you agree that a much longer waiting period, more training and psychological testing should go along with the right to bear arms?

I will post my response to this one in a second.

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Do you at least agree that it is too easy to get a permit for a concealed weapon?
No. It is not easy to get a concealed carry permit. some say it is easy to get a gun. But try to get a CC permit. Go see what you have to get in order to have one of those!

Then...look at how many people that have CC permits that are involved in illegal uses of their weapons.

The statistics may shock you!


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