I have a friend who is having great difficulty with a situation, in fact, a situation I have seen repeated in various forms here and on other forums, and I have never seen a suitable solution for it.

Here is his/their situation (which sounds like about 50% of every 70's based relationship you come across).

He has a wife of 32 years. They lived together about 2 years before they were married.

While they were living together, he went from one one-night-stand to another, while she stayed at home.

Later on in the relationship, she began to learn of some of his actions and naturally felt pretty unloved. Eventually, she started a relationship with another man that lasted about two months.

Eventually, my friend and his wife-to-be, made up, and married.

There were normal issues in the marriage, but they managed to mostly have a good marriage and raise decent kids despite their rocky start.

One of the issues in the marriage was sex. Eventually, my friend ended up having a brief sexual affair, but ended it when the conviction of the wrong he was doing nipped at his conscience. He kept the knowledge of the affair to himself. The affair occurred somewhere around year 15 of the marriage. In the years after the affair, he did everything he could to correct his issues, and be a better husband. The sex starved state of the marriage continued, the difference this time was that he would never try to fix it with an affair.

Move forward to about year 30 of the marriage. Friend and wife have finally solved the sexual portion of their marriage, and things are moving along well. They are feeling like they are newly in love. One day, because of some statement made by his wife that had always haunted my friend, he asked his wife a direct question, and she told him of the affair she had before they were married.

Here is where things get interesting. He finds himself devastated like a newcomer here, even though the affair is 30 years old. His wife feels like it is of no or limited importance because it was 30 years ago, and because he was fooling around and because it was before they were married. She claims to have been faithful since.

Regardless, he is crushed, crushed to the point that he loses his desire (and I guess his love) for her. With the facts being what they are, I thought that his feelings for his wife would come back in a short time. So my advice was just to relax, treat your wife with love and kindness, date her, etc..., and all would be well, the pain would diminsh.

It has now been over a year, and while he has dealt with the emotional pain and forgiven her, his desire has not returned. They are having sex but not often. He claims to love her, and I believe him, but he says that "something broke" when he found out, and he has not been able to recover the way he felt about his wife before he found out. he claims to have a high sex drive, so occasional sex is obviously not his norm, even though that is what he is doing.

She knows about his 15 year old affair and thinks that he is not being fair to her. As far as "fair" goes, I agree, and he does as well, but he still can't shake the past.

His major difficulty is that if he had known about her affair, there is a good chance he would not have married her. It seems to me that he can't get past the "what ifs".

I would really like to help him, but he won't go to counseling, and he won't come here because he doesn't believe that there is a fix. He is not treating his wife poorly, but his state of mind is obviously affecting their relationship. His wife is hurting from the guilt and she is feeling like she trapped him into marriage. She doesn't believe that he still loves her.

I don't think she would have "trapped" him or anything else from malice, she just doesn't seem to be the type.

The solution she has offered him is divorce, so that he is free to re-choose her or not. She didn't make the offer to him from anger. Regardless, I think that it is an incredibly bad idea.

Okay folks, I will answer any question that I can. I am open to any and all ideas regardless of what approach they come from. The couple is well versed in affairs and relationships and have read every book I could think of, including SAA, NOT Just Friends, etc....

Please help if you can, this one has me baffled.

Gimble

Gimble:

My Take:

Your Friend is an Idiot and lucky she will have him.

He's ONS'ed everywhere during thier dating period, and she had one opportunity and now "he's stuck at what if"

What if he wasn't a joke?

5 iron over.

He needs to be honest with his wife. Start there. Really. Get a copy of the sexual History Questionaire from this website and give it to your friend. Have him complete it. If he is embarrassed, have him go over it with you.

Performance anexity (sp) and detachment come from his shock to find out that someone was capable of doing the same thing he was doing.

If he can't be honest with you, he will NEVER get there with his W.

If it has been a year, it's time for him to man up.

LG

I think your answer is in this paragraph.

It's about accepting responsibility for ones own choices, and for ones life.

Is this really about the affair Gimble, or is it about someone who has regrets that he has not lived the life he really wanted to?

Is his ego so big, that he cannot accept the fact that his W had SF with another man (while he was doing the same with other women?) I doubt it, so it has to be deeper.

Self-forgiveness and acceptance of our own responsibility in the life we have chosen may be at the core oF his loss of love for his wife (misplaced).

If this is so, his wife can stand lovingly by him while he comes to some realizations (as we all must eventually do to find inner peace).

Not very practical advise, but these are my thoughts on what you have written.

Gimble,

Has he or have they tried any individual or marriage counseling?

Is he the kind of guy that revels in his dispair so he can be the one requiring the stroking and attention and manipulates the other spouse or friends from that standpoint?

This does seem to be very petulant behavior on his part to the extreme.

Do they have kids? So if he knew of this A 30 years ago and not married her, are those children not a joy to be considered? Or would it matter if they never existed?

Everything happens for a reason, correct? If he believes that then he should foegedaboudit.

I agree with you about the "what ifs". There has got to be something deeper going on.

Thats all I got.

kirk

LG.

I agree he is a lucky man. He is also not a joke. He knows what he did and is and all that. He says he is desperate to get past it. He is genuinely "stuck".

As far as I know, he has been completely honest with his wife and me, and as I posted, they solved their sexual issues previously.

Weaver.

You raised excellent points. The sex with another man is not an issue with him.

Quoting you: "Self-forgiveness and acceptance of our own responsibility in the life we have chosen may be at the core or his loss of love for his wife (misplaced).

If this is so, his wife can stand lovingly by him while he comes to some realizations (as we all must eventually do to find inner peace)."

I think that is an excellent observation. That is on my list for consideration.

Kirk

She is willing to go to counseling, he is not. I understand why he won't, and I can't argue with his reasons.

I would agree with the petulance, if it weren't for the genuineness of his pain, and his desire to see the "feeling" end.

They have children, and they are very much loved and cared for. These are good solid family people.

Quote:"I agree with you about the "what ifs". There has got to be something deeper going on."
I agree, Any ideas? Weaver made a good point.

Thanks folks for the comments. I have seen so many people here and on other forums suffer from an inability to move out of the past. I understand that most of it stems from their inability to process the emotional pain (probably mostly men), but there are the ones that don't seem to fit any pattern. Those always get my attention.

Gimble

Eventually, my friend ended up having a brief sexual affair, but ended it when the conviction of the wrong he was doing nipped at his conscience. He kept the knowledge of the affair to himself. The affair occurred somewhere around year 15 of the marriage

So...he committed adultery and she doesn't know it.

Yet, she went out on him BEFORE they were married (as he did),he has now found out about it and he is CHOOSING to make it a marriage-ending issue... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

My suggestion would be to tell him that he has to come TOTALLY clean about the adultery so that his wife can choose whether or not she wants to remain married to HIM.

See how he processes that.

committed

Hi, Committed.

She does know about his affair.

Let me reiterate, he is not choosing to make anything marriage ending. His only difficulty is that he has lost his desire for his wife. That is a feeling.

He is not blaming anyone or anything, merely stating how it all made him feel.

That feeling is nothing really new to betrayed spouses here. In this case, he wants things to be the way they were. His desire is to see the marriage heal, not come unglued.

Also, let's be careful not to get into the "two wrongs make a right" here. She is hurt from his betrayal, he is hurt from hers. Also, not everyone has a strong sense of "fair". That is just one type of personality.

Thanks for the comments.

Gimble

Gimble:

Two things come to mind:


Ummm, could it be that he had suspicions for a very long time but didn't want to rock the boat? That and;


There is something going on he won't say. In his private, secret heart, he is processing something, something that he will not talk about with his wife or you. He fears going to counseling will out whatever it is.


Maybe yes, maybe no. I do not think it is a coincidence that this came up, along with the question he asked, after supposedly solving their 30 year SF problem, whatever that was.

This is a guy who plowed every unguarded field he could find and then married the "Good girl," who turned out not to be so good after all, yes?

Classic madonna complex. It is likely he hasn't a clue about women's sexuality. A good sexologist can fix him up quick. The damage here is about his perception of women that his wife helped cultivate for 30 years with her "problem."

I know you get it by now, but I will use an example. Leave us say that the problem was a lack of OS from her. This would certainly cement any madonna complex he would have. Then she solves that (or they do together) and now the old nag in his mind that he thought was just a bad tickle turns out to be not only right, but he wonders if the OM got OS which was denied to him for 30 years.

Real hair ball you found there Gimble. And he is far from fessing up all that he is thinking. Betcha a pint on that one.

Larry

Hi Gimble

I thought your original post said that he kept his affair from her.


When I say choosing to make it a marriage-ending issue, it will end the marriage in the biggest sense of the word. It doesn't necessarily mean a divorce...just an end to the marriage as they know it. He has lost desire for her, and you said that he had lost his love too.

No desire + no love is equal to no marriage imho.

committed

Gimble,
This just goes to show the need to completely know everything about your prosepective mate before you march up the altar to say 'I DO.'

Secrets of this type are simply lies of ommision that will always find a way to surface in the future if not dealt with before hand. It's like a poison that will seep up to the surface one day and leave a bitter taste you can't seem to shake.

Here's a different twist if you will allow me, suppose the w's pre marital A resulted in a pregnacy, that w found a way to hide and hid it from your friend. Would he have a right to know this before he M'd her?

Just curious as to where we all draw the line.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Gimble:

Larry Said it well. ANd I'm in for the pint.

There is something deeper. That is why I asked about the Sexual History Questionaire.

Get that 800 pound gorilla, whatever it is, out in the open, then it can be dealt with.

Maybe your friend needs to know what his W did do with the other guy. It could be OS. Could be whatever. But he needs to get honest. With himself, and then with his W.

Hi, committed.

He did keep his affair from her, but eventually told her.

Quoting from the original post:
"She knows about his 15 year old affair and thinks that he is not being fair to her. As far as "fair" goes, I agree, and he does as well, but he still can't shake the past."

Thanks for your comments.

Gimble

Pardner, my first reaction was your friend is being a drama queen and urgently needs a hard kick in the [censored]. On reflection, I think my first idea was spot on. Please administer the wakeup call to your friend at your earliest opportunity.

Come on…he’s admitted (to you) multiple instances of cheating on her (after establishing a committed relationship), including at least one after they were married, and HE is pissed off? If there’s one thing I hate about my fellow man, it’s the double standard some of them espouse. Your friend is one of them. He can hide his adultery, and that’s okay because he felt guilty, but his girlfriend straying once is a catastrophic betrayal? Give me a break.

Frankly, Gimble, all you can do is give this guy advice straight from the cuff. He needs to go to a counselor with his wife and lay it all out. If he doesn’t, the marriage is going to be irrevocably damaged and will probably fail. Do you actually need friends who are that irrational?

Gimble,

In summary, to keep a long answer short-er, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> obviously counseling would be the best thing for the two of them as a couple and for him as an individual. As he put it, "something broke" and I suspect a counselor could help him pinpoint what broke and how to fix it. Along with the others, I speculate if he has something to hide if he absolutely refuses to go to counseling.

HOWEVER, working 100% with what you have laid out here, I actually do have a thought, and it's a little long and rambly so hang with me! When a person gets raped, they often long for the day when everything "is the way it used to be" and I suspect your friend is rather mourning for this himself. But, once a person is raped, they are changed...and things will never be "the way they used to be." Some innocence has been lost. So has some naivety! There may never again be that feeling of controlling safety. These things are forever CHANGED. So a rape victim has to decide to accept that it will never "be the way it used to be" and that they will have to be who they are NOW.

I believe it's probably something similar for a person who finds out about an A. While the WS and the BS may reconcile and have a better, stronger M...the fact that they were virgins when they married and now they've lost that exclusivity is HUGE. BS saved themselves for the specialness of marriage, and now WS has "been with" someone else...and even if the M is reconciled, losing that often "breaks something." Soooo...some day the BS has to decide to accept that it will never "be the way it used to be" and accept that they are where they are NOW....that it's something completely different.

I suspect your friend needs to have this kind of moment. It's not really about "forgiveness" because it sounds like he has forgiven her if there's anything to even really forgive! But it's really more about just making a DECISION to go forward from where they are NOW. I suspect he needs to decide to accept that 30 years ago his W was with someone else, and then CHOSE him and has lived with him and been with him through thick and thin for 3 decades. That she is who she is NOW...TODAY. Not his illusion...not what he thought she was...but SHE IS WHO SHE IS: his wife of 30 years and the woman who has shared her bed with him that whole time.

I think he needs to DECIDE to live with it.

Your faithful friend,



CJ

Hi, Longhorn.

Obviously, just telling him to "get over it" didn't work, that's why I came here.

Why is it a double standard for him to be upset that she cheated?

If you cheated on your wife because she was cheating on you, does that make it a draw? I think not. That makes two people who screwed up. If one of them has more trouble dealing with it than the other, then that's just the way it is.

I agree with you that the marriage is going to be damaged, in fact already is being damaged.

Not all my friends are irrational, but the truth is that we all are at different points in our lives. Besides that, I can't give up on him, he is too much like I was back in the day.

Gimble

FaithfulWifeCJ
Good post, I agree 100%.

All Blessings Jerry

he won't go to counseling, and he won't come here because he doesn't believe that there is a fix.

He knows very well there's a fix because he's read all the great relationship books and he has you, wise counsel, as an intimate friend.

Therefore he is deliberately avoiding any possibility of a "fix" IMO.

I have no doubts he hurt just like a new BS. Its a dreadful shock,and it must have been made worse for him by the fact that he could hardly feel justified as the obvious "victim" in this situation having had affairs of his own.

she thinks that he is not being fair to her see ?

So in order to retain the high ground in some way, and to get his W to invest unequal pity and amelioration into their relationship he deliberately does not seek to resolve this manifestation of his hurt.

In summary - BS need a penitent FWS to help them start repairing, but when our FWS has previously been a BS there is unlikely to be the same black and white role casting that there is in previously faithful marriages.

By not fixing his hurt, he gets the pennance and investment he feels he needs, but which their unique history will not facilitate.

He feels entitled to feel like the victim, but history says that he cannot any more than his wife was.

He needs to pull his finger out and realise his pouting may just lose him his precious baby.

my $0.02

Great post from Larry.

""Quote:"I agree with you about the "what ifs". There has got to be something deeper going on."
I agree, Any ideas?""

Way down deep in his heart of hearts, he is panicing and a full blown mid life crises is crashing down on him and he sees this "feeling" as a way to jump ship and not be his fault...And he has been waiting for over a year for the right time.

Just an idea.

""She is willing to go to counseling, he is not. I understand why he won't, and I can't argue with his reasons.""

I am sorry, but I don't understand it. Because he thinks it's not fixable??

If this is the reason this seems very lame to me. He should be trying everything to get rid of the "feeling" if he is serious. Heck try hypnosis.

kirk

bOb has hit the nail on the head...

""So in order to retain the high ground in some way, and to get his W to invest unequal pity and amelioration into their relationship he deliberately does not seek to resolve this manifestation of his hurt.""

""By not fixing his hurt, he gets the pennance and investment he feels he needs, but which their unique history will not facilitate.""

This sounds very much like the answer, and he probably is not even consciencely doing it, but by not going to therapy or counseling he maybe sub-consciencely avoids discovering this and can continue on in his own fog of pain.

He is reveling in his misery and dispair waiting for his wife to grovel and crawl back to him, which ain't going to happen because IT WAS 30 YEARS AGO!!!

OK, bOb, ""amelioration""?? I looked it up and got the following:
–noun 1. an act or instance of ameliorating; the state of being ameliorated.
2. something that ameliorates; an improvement.
3. melioration (def. 1).

Pronunciation[uh-meel-yuh-rey-shuhn,

Well at least I now know how to pronounce it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

kirk