I am an icon. woohooo...

I don't know about that LG, I got my [censored] handed to me here intially, I was so mad-but I was ENGAGED...I desperately tried to pick a fight with Pep even-LOL...And here I am today still posting...July will make two years...Conflict of that nature can be a very good thing for a WS...I'm living proof!


Yep, I think that's one of the greatest things about this board...Most all voices offer some value...


Hmmmm...In my waywardness I was in great turmoil much of the time...Hiding, lying, running from God...I was in TERRIBLE internal conflict...Anxiety was killing me...Life surely didn't seem easy to me!



I contemplated telling that, but it should really be his decision to tell or not...Never know when he might wish to be incognito around here again, KWIM? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I wondered what in the heck Flamingo meant when you posted it last night! LOL Makes more sense now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Glad to hear you guys are stilling processing stuff LG! I KNOW that Mr. W would love to "swing the sticks" with you! Anytime! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

P.S. TA, that was a GREAT post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

E.g. of proper use of OP bashing, during the A, AJ told me that Gargy was trying to convince him to fly away with her to meet her family.

What went through my mind: That slut!!!!!!!!!

What I said, accompanied by a faint worldly smile: My, she's really moving things along. If you go with her, she will take that as a commitment. Are you ready for that?

Once I found MB, I finally had a place to vent my feelings about the OP, lest I burst.

WS: Poor choice of venting venue.
MB: Excellent choice of venting venue.


Mrs. W, funny you should say what you did about your surprise at being told that good people don't screw other people's spouses. That was a revelation to me, as well, once it came. I always thought Gargy was the poor innocent victim, just a good person caught in a bad situation. Maybe she was a good person once. Maybe she will someday be a good person again. She is not a good person right now.

No OP is a good person right now.

That was so shocking at the time!

Listen,

I posted in order to share some knowledge I have gained, through formal training, about the psychology of a person who's involved in destructive relationship and has feelings for someone who's harming them. And about effective vs ineffective ways to reach such a person. Not according to me... but according to those who trained me. Whether or not the person is a victim is beside the point. It's all about a frame of mind and a person's (likely) natural reaction to a certain outside stimulus.

I simply asked that you consider the information when posting to WSs.

It doesn't hit close to home b/c I never even thought I was in love with XOM. In fact, I specifically pursued the affair with HIM b/c I knew he wouldn't have a problem screwing a married woman. I knew I wouldn't be rejected b/c I knew he didn't have the character to do so.

To those of you who found some merit in the information and were willing to acknowledge it -- well, thanks Pep. (I respect your opinion no mater what type of panties you wear).

To those of you who want to dismiss the idea outright -- that's certainly your prerogative.

To those of you who considered it and still disagree -- okee dokey. I certainly didn't expect universal agreement.

To those of you who want to turn a difference of opinion into a personal attack on me -- whatever. I'm sorry you're so threatened by an opposing POV. But I'm simply not going to justify accusations you pull out of your keester (sp?) with an answer.

--SC

Actually SC,

While Mel has been to assertiveness training <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, I have been to sensitivity training. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I do think that while many will think OP's pond scum to quote WAT, I do think attacking them when discussing something with the WS is not productive. So I agree with you in that people in defensive mode, don't listen very well. Couple that with a WS in "full fog", and one doesn't have a chance.

I think people are confusing sugar coating things with strategies to achieve a goal. Getting the WS defensive about an OP does make a lot of sense to me either. Telling a WS how the cow ate the cabbage, now that does make a lot of sense to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I guess I view the OP as irrelevant when dealing with BS or WS. It is the marriage that must be focussed on, and clearing the OP out of the discussion and surely out of the WS's life is the step one.

Must go, its getting late and I am sure I am not making much sense.

Interesting post SC.

JL

Smartcookie,

I while ago there was a thread where FWS’s were invited to answer questions to give insight to BS’s. One of the questions was: “Do you realize that the OP was a scumbag?”. I answered as follows:

If I had viewed OM as a “scumbag”, “cad” or whatever, I must have viewed myself as one too since I was guilty of the same behavior than him. I did think and realized that I acted very cowardly, “scummy” etc. at times, but I have never defined myself as a scummy person in spite of my bad choices and stupid mistakes. Yes, I struggled with extreme feelings of guilt, shame, unworthiness etc. but still did not view/see myself as a scummy person in spite of that…and because of that, I have a hard time too to view the OM as a scummy person. So, in a nutshell, I think my real question/problem with it is this:

Unless I view(ed) myself as a very bad & deeply flawed person/low-life/scummy/scoundrel or whatever, how can I judge OM as such because of what happened when I was guilty of the same behavior than him?

…and I guess the above question might be at the core of what this thread is all about...because the WS’s (even FWS’s) might actually experience the name calling and “attack” on the OP’s personality as an attack on themselves too since they were equally responsible and guilty of the exact same behavior during the A.

Thanks JL,

That's exactly what this is about -- strategies to achieve a goal. And techniques that have been honed through trial and error. It doesn't matter whether the person in question is a victim of abuse, a WS, or a parent feeling protective of a child.

Maybe coming from you -- a respected MB vet who's actually had some success getting through to WS's -- the message can be heard.

--SC

Hey, my friend Suzet, good to see you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But you DID view yourself this way when you had your affair. Otherwise you would have had no motivation to change. I KNOW that you felt very badly about your affair, Suzet.


Yes, they probably do and this is a good thing, IMO. when they realize that others see them in a realistic light, not their hazy fog, it is a much needed wake up call. [exposure has this effect too] In the case in question, a man who is having an affair with his brothers wife was called a "CAD." [to the WS] Which is absolutely accurate. If the WS extrapolates that to include her, well then.......... NO DUH! Much better to percieve the truth than fantasy. The truth is the solution to adultery, not more fog and deception.

The problem is that words have meanings and sometimes REALITY IS very sticky!! It just will not go away! For me, I wrote "CAD," because it is shorter than scumbag, but that was just me being lazy. CAD is very appropriate and I am OK if any WS finds that "offensive. BEING A CAD IS VERY OFFENSIVE, IMO!.

A much more appropriate analogy would have been ADDICTS; the abuse victims that smartcookie used, are a completely different breed of cat and are not even on the same planet as a WS. Waywards have an addict mindset that any addict can recognize. AA is one of the most successful self help groups in the world, and you won't hear them engaging in doublespeak and [censored] talk. Doublespeak and bullcrap words do not work with ADDICTS and they certainly don't work with fogged out waywards. It is dysfunctional.

Calling something its proper word may well be the very 2x4 that breaks through the fog. Certainly using doublespeak and weasel words to define filthy behavior and scummy people is not helpful, that is exactly what has enabled the WS to RATIONALIZE her hellish behavior in the first place. Common sense dictates that more enabling only renders similar results. Calling something its proper term is often a huge wake up call that a fogged out person needs.

The day we can't call a man who is having an affair with his brothers wife a CAD,[who isn't even here] because it might make the wayward wife "defensive" is the day I check into the nutward. And so should you folks. That is the very picture of sick dysfunctional doublespeak. That is how alcoholic families act: SICK. No thanks, I will pass. A CAD is a CAD in my book and a CAD it will remain. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SC, but you have not been "attacked." Others should realize that your viewpoint comes from that of an UNRECOVERED WAYWARD WIFE. You have no experience with recovery personally and are really not qualified to tell others how it is done.[especially others who HAVE recovered and know how it is done]

This wayward mentality and tendency to PROTECT affairees is very apparent to ME. Let's just be honest about where you are coming from. You identify with the WAYWARDS, rather than the FWS, for good reason.

You come here and do an awful lot of criticizing and nit-picking, always of betrayed spouses and/or regular contributing BOARD MEMBERS who are here doing the heavy lifting. I find it to be nothing more than a diversion.

Perhaps you should focus all that energy on FIXING yourself FIRST instead of nit-picking others who are doing the work? Fix yourself before you attempt to fix others, sc.

Once again...

"But I'm simply not going to justify accusations you pull out of your keester (sp?) with an answer."

Fine by me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Acually Mel, for someone who brags so much about being the only informed one on AA, you are off base yet again with your bull in the china shop ways disguised as "reality".
This is why your ways are so unsuccessful with helping a WS.
Your confrontational ways almost always do nothing to help a WS except make them defensive. Over and over again. You may need to go back and study up again on helping an alcoholic BEFORE they admit they have a prolem instead of after. I can't recall any experts on alcoholics recommending that they be called names or that your methods work. (as evidenced by the high rate of WS's on this site rejecting your so called "reality" methods when they first come on here. Calling them names doesn't work. Your methods haven't and don't work with a WS. It only makes them focus on reacting to your silly word games than on their own behavior. As an alcoholic, you should know this. It is one thing to be in a room with all alcoholics and calling each other names, but it is entirely different before a alcoholic has admitted they have a problem.








Works the same with WS's......

keep, I hardly think a board troll has any idea about what works or doesn't work. Just as you know nothing about Marriage Builders or its principles, you know even less about alcoholism. No one has EVER suggested that they sit in a room at AA and call each other names. Better stick to your trolling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thud!!!

NOBODY is successful in helping WS while they are still foggy. We can only fan at the fog and hope some messages get through and they stick around long enough to start listening.

But FWS, including my wife, love Ms. Lane.

Go figure.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Besides the good cop/bad cop posting styles of the various posters is EXACTLY why this place words. Conflict is GOOD...it engages them in MB whether they like us or not.

Hi Mel, good to see you too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I’m not around often these days, but I still pop up from time to time as you can see! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel, yes, I did feel very bad about myself and therefore I did feel very scummy about the feelings I had for OM, my addiction to him & my struggle to break completely away from the addiction at the time. The EA was extremely out of character for me & I felt like an extremely unworthy, weak and flawed person during and after that… But although I felt like a big scumbag and coward because of that, I however knew deep down in my heart that this wasn’t true and that I couldn't define myself this way simply because God loves me and view me as worthy person (like He view ALL people) in spite of my sins, wrongdoings, flaws, struggles etc. Therefore, I realized that I couldn’t define and judge my WHOLE being; personality and worthiness as a person on some big mistakes and wrong choices I’ve made…OR have the right and authority to define and judge other sinners (and creatures of God) this way...in spite of their actions. To be clearer: I personally belief we can and should judge a person’s actions (in a non-hypocritical way), but not a person as a being e.g. hate the sin but love the sinner (as God instructs me to do in his Word). This is often VERY difficult for me to do and I fail a LOT (especially in dealing with people who act in very "unlovable" ways) but I'm trying!

Anyway, thanks for explaining your POV Melody, I understand where you’re coming from.

Take care and thanks for your response! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Suzet

p.s. this is pretty cute coming from a girl who routinely has her posts EDITED by the mods for name calling. I seem to remember that you were recently edited for calling me a "DRUNK." Good grief.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I disagree.

Now... let me see if I can come up with some unfounded judgements and lies to post about you in order to discredit you. That's how the game is played around here, right?

I guess the question I have is:

Why bash anyone?

The justification seems to be:

It makes us feel better.

Or maybe...

It makes other people feel bad/worse (and that makes us feel better?)

Does anyone truly believe there is no difference at all between telling the truth of the matter and resorting to bashing people?

And, if you just enjoy bashing people and making them feel small (does it make you feel bigger?) then why not just come out and be honest about it - so that people who don't enjoy sadism can avoid you.

*shrugs*

Mys

sc, the only one I see here who has a "game" is you. You have an agenda, and that agenda is not likely related to recovery since you can't even do that in your in own life. Reminds me of the falling down drunk who comes to AA meetings to lecture them on recovery techniques because he fancies himself as an "expert." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Your drive-by nitpicking and criticism is really nothing more than the self serving agenda of a wayward mind disguised as "help." It is tiresome and distracting.

Keep

The very act of a WS coming to MB and posting on the infidelity section of the messages boards is itself an admission they have a problem. We don't necessarily confront them trying to convince them they have a problem...they KNOW they do, we just attempt to define the problem quite a bit different then they do.

WS's get enough coddling from the outside world. If that's what they wanted they wouldn't need to show up on MB looking for it.

Again...it's the balance of posters that works. Neither nice or bluntness alone will be as effective.

Mr. Wondering