Something to think about when posting to WSs:

I happen to have a bit of training in working with victims of domestic violence. One of the things I've been told is never to bash or criticize the abuser.

Why?

Because the victim's knee-jerk reaction will be to defend him. After all, at one point she picked him. And if he's such a monster, how could she have been so stupid? (BTW, abuse victims have their own type of fog, brought on by the cycle of violence.)

But anyway... the more she defends him, the more she BELIEVES the defenses. ie: "he's not so bad... I provoked him... he's so sorry... he didn't mean to." etc... etc... etc.

So I'm thinking...

The same concept might be applied to the bashing and criticizing of an OP. The more you do it... the more the WS wants to defend the OP... whether in a post or just in his/her mind.

You call the OP a CAD, a ******, a POS -- the WS thinks you're jumping to conclusions when you've never even met the person.

You question the OP's character -- the WS starts listing in his/her mind all the admirable qualities of the OP (real or imagined, it doesn't much matter)... feeding the infatuation.

See how that works?

It doesn't matter one bit whether you're right or wrong in your assesmet of OP. It's totally counter-productive.

As I said, just some food for thought. Thanks for listening.

--SC

Actually, I know for a fact that most counselors tell the exact same thing to the BS's during the counseling...don't attack the other person in anyway...you'll just force your spouse to defend them and encourage them to view the OP as a martyr in their cause.

I never bashed OM in my case in front of my wife for exactly this same reason. I knew that she'd just look for reasons to defend him. Instead, I focused on fixing the things I had some influence on.

I think you have a good point. It is hard to control emotions in what many may see as an open forum to vent, which may include bashing.

I think I see what you are saying SC...I assume that you are talking about the BS doing this though, right? I do agree that it is counter productive for the BS to do this with their WS...It's pointless for the BS to try and "educate" their WS...

However, I do fully believe that when a WS comes here that they should be told in no uncertain terms the whole truth...Part of that truth is that the OP is NOT honorable nor were/are they when they chose/choose to cheat with said OP...This board can be a MAJOR fog clearer...That was EXACTLY my experience and I definitely needed all of the 2x4s that I received here...I'm eternally grateful to this board for just that reason...I needed to be called on my bullsh*t and the good folks here did that!

Mrs. W

LOL

poor Mrs W (the newbie fresh FWW)

I told her not to bash the OM unless she was going to color herself with the same crayola .... she was shocked (and irritated) but d-a-y-u-m gurl she sho'nuf came out smellin' rite purdy in the end <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I DO bash the OP sometimes on purpose .... especially when the BETRAYED SPOUSE is feeling small and ugly and toad like ....

I understand the phase of the betrayed when they imagine that the OP is frighteningly perfect and far superior in every way possible .... when I see that I jump all over the OP can call the OP names (rat turd anyone?)

What if you do know him and once considered him a friend?

I guess telling Wayzilla one day early on that a perfect afternoon would be spent scraping Gollum's face off with a butter knife was in retrospect a mistake.

Pep, did you mean when the WS or the BS is feeling small,etc?

the BS

LOL

sometimes namecalling the OP can be useful .....
but usually NOT useful when it comes to try and win the heart/mind of the wayward ... which is what Cookie's point was

Pep,

You might want to change it in your post then - just to clarify

or
I could leave it to be confusing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PS ... I changed it, thanks for pointing it out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

well, there is that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh thank goodness! I was beginning to think the point was being missed entirely. Then again, once pep gets involved in a thread... you never know what direction it will take... usually a discussion about her undies or something.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Smartcookie:

Are you refering to the responses posted to one BubbleBath?

Fairly typical around here.

Most WS's don't hang around long.

Wayward or foggy thinking is not tolerated, obviously. But it is where a WS poster is at.

The attempt to 2X4 them back to non-wayward or less foggy thinking is pronounced. Sometimes it works. Oftentimes, the poster just goes away.

Problem Solved.

It would be interesting to get them to stay around longer. Maybe we can make more of a difference. But the MB discussion board culture, in many respects works very well, but it is tough on the WS around here.

So, I just duck.

And play golf.

LG

LOL Pep...I remember that very well! Thanks for doing it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Something Mr. W DID do was to post to me under another name-he could say anything that he wanted about the OM then-LOL...I had NO CLUE it was him until this past November in fact...The stuff that he said under his alias was SO good for me...Hilarious that I didn't get mad at that poster at all-I LOVED the way he said things...He made sense to me...In fact, I used to point out his posts to Mr. W and say things like "Wow, that guy really knows his stuff!" I find it hysterical that I was attracted to Mr. W even when I didn't know who he was! He's such a smarty pants! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Well, this is something that is never recommended around here. The BS is never advised to bash the OP to the WS. It makes the WS DEFEND the OP.

However, all bets are OFF when WE discuss them around here. We have a contest to see who can come up with the best epitaphs and I usually WIN! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ah LG, if they genuinely want help and want to change, they will stay...It's not supposed to be easy on a WS...Life surely won't be if they remain that way...I think it's best that they get a taste of that here, KWIM? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

HERE I graduated to granny panties

You know, CookieMonster, 'da Pepster will be 58 years old this summer ... I plan on milking this age thingy to the hilt .... ideas?

Of course its not tolerated. That would be ENABLING and that would be silly. This is not ENABLERS ANONYMOUS, but Marriage Builders. This is a NO [censored] ZONE. Check your crap at the door, we are here to save marriages, not to appease sick FOGHORNS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We are here to HELP people do RIGHT, not help them do wrong.

WS's that really want help have no problem getting the help they need around here. Its the foghorns who come here looking for AFFAIR SUPPORT and self delusion who have trouble. As well they should!

WW knows I'm going after him in the Marines...guess thats not helping my cause then huh?

I don't think it matters WHO is doing the bashing. The BS, or the WS's best friend, or some faceless poster from MB. If it's said TO the WS, he/she is likely to defend the OP. At least mentally.

And BTW, there's a big difference between bashing... and making gentle suggestions or asking thought-provoking questions. The former is likely to trigger defensiveness.

--SC

Liar, liar!
Thong on fire!

smartcookie, and thats ok, too. I think if a wayward DEFENDS their OP here, that is a good discussion.

I think a wayward will get defensive about just anything, don't you? Most especially the TRUTH. But thats ok, when they are really ready to recover, they will listen without getting defensive.

Personally.,
it's too great a leap to liken an active WS...to a victim of much....

sorry...not feeling that one

though with thousands of posts under my belt.....there aren't many that waste time even talking or concerning myself much with OP.....

but let's see..

cad /kæd/
-
noun 1. an ill-bred man, esp. one who behaves in a dishonorable or irresponsible way toward women

hmmmmm...

yep that's just a little dose of reality...offerred in a tiny tiny three letter word....

I stand behind it....

ARKie

agree ark, it is silly to treat a wayward as if they are a victim. They are the VICTIMIZER, a CAD. Misplaced compassion only gives power to evil. Doublespeak makes my [censored] hurt.

Well, again, I'm sort of extrapolating this from my knowledge of working with abuse victims. Not necessarily a perfect parallel to the WS, but close enough to be useful I think.

When abuse victims first reach out for help, they are not usually ready at that point to take the steps necessary to help themselves. But the goal is to get the wheels rolling... to lure them in to keep seeking help. Put them on the defensive... make them think you "don't get it"... and they may never reach out again. And all too often, they end up dead.

When that happens, I don't consider it "problem solved". I consider it a [email]d@mn[/email] shame.

--SC

TRUE DAT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Actually being "bashed" here helped Mr. W and I to communicate more...He even got to coddle me a little...It made us into a team again...It opened discussions for us on topics that would have been difficult to broach otherwise...I think it's very good for a WS to see that others find their behavior horrendous...

When I spouted some crap about OM being a "good person", I was promptly told that "good people" did not screw other people's spouses...Believe it or not that had not occured to foggy me...I needed to hear that and let it take root in my mind...

Mrs. W

p.s. I only called the OP a "cad" because it was shorter to type than SCUMBAG and sounded nicer.

MrsW:

As for the "genuinely want help and want to change"

That might get them here. But how they are treated will determine, to a greater extent, how long they stay. And since they are wayward, we already know that the have a certain weakness. (LG>>> Raising Hand...)

Should a poster be corrected in thier Wayward thinking? Definately. But a little bit of honey sometimes can make all the difference.

We are a chorus. And some will sing the high notes and others the low notes, and some will just hum along.

I think they can get some harsh 2x4's early. And bashing the OP is just one of the types of 2x4's that gets swung.

BS can get pounded around here as well. Takes a little longer, but if they don't realize that the problems in thier M need both people to work on it, then the 2x4's come out.

As for this:

"Life surely won't be if they remain that way"

From a new Wayward posting around here point of view, Life IS easy. They may be trying to make it easier, and they should get bashed for that, but the Waywards still need to be lead to drink the MB Koolaid...

LG


So, what was Mr.W's other screen name?
It would be fun to look THAT up....

PS: MrsW: I have spoken with Mrs LG, (Flamingo) regarding the little dustup in Feb. We are working our way thru it. I need to take Mr W up on that golf offer he made....

I never meant to imply that WS's are victims.

But they are mixed-up with bad dudes (or dudettes)... and I DO believe the defense reflex is the same in either case.

Well, we are not working with victims here, but the VICTIMIZERS. As they would tell you in AA, mincing words with entitled, selfish, self centered folks is nothing more than enabling. Never a good thing and never helpful.

Are we hitting a little too close to home by using terms like "CAD", sc?

I think perhaps we are hitting a little too close to home when we are very blunt about OPs, aren't we, sc? That is what this is all about. Have you even stopped seeing your OM? When was the last time you had contact?

Because your posts indicate the mindset of a WAYWARD, sc, who STILL IDENTIFIES WITH WAYWARDS, rather than RECOVERED FORMER waywards. That is what I see in almost all your posts. You are personally bothered by harsh references to OPs because you were very recently in contact with your affair partner.

You know, smartcookie, I think if you ever really recover, you won't be so defensive about straightfoward, blunt talk to a wayward. This is PERSONAL to you and it shows. I suspect that will change if you ever recover.

Are you asking if my OM was a CAD?

Yes. And worse.

I'm totally fine with that. I'm not talkin' 'bout myself here.

SC, if the person who came forward to you was not the victim of domestic abuse, but the perpetrator, would you deal with that situation the same way that you deal with the victim?

If the abuser arrived at the shelter complaining that he can't seem to stop himself from hitting his wife, but he feels justified because she simply refuses to give him what he needs, what would the advice be to deal with that? Would you invite him into the shelter among all the trembling, traumatised women, or would you point out gently but firmly that is not OK to hit your wife, give him the phone number of a competent professional and quietly close the door?

A WS is a victim only in a limited sense; he/she is an abuser in a much more concrete respect. Pointing out forcefully that the OP is, by definition, deeply flawed, is often the first wake-up call they've had that they themselves are not romantic tragiheroes. If, deep down, they have the same reservations about their OP, they may not enjoy hearing the catcalls of others - may indeed flounce away, wounded - but chances are that the affirmation of their judgement will stick with them.

I suspect most WSs who post have lurked for a while and have a good idea what they are going to hear. They post because, at some level, they want to hear it. Whether they can deal with it in the moment is another matter.

I often wonder how many of the wounded flouncers come back months later under a different name, to ask for help with revelation/rebuilding?

TA

Outstanding post, TA.

IMNSHO, identifying and treating the average WS as a victim of abuse is misguided, unwise, foolish and generally imprudent.

The WS is not the victim. The WS is the perpetrator of the abuse!

OK, so they joined with a co conspirator to carry out the abuse. That just makes it all the more heinous.

The WS and the OP are both scoundrels.

So, what does an abuse counselor say to the abuser, anyway? Oh, you poor misunderstood abuser?

On MB, we certainly should deal the cards when they are the most effective. And we should call a spade a spade.

This reminds me of when our first MC after FWW’s first affair didn’t want us to use the word adultery. Someone please tell me the neutral pc word for adultery and its devastation.

That MC was a lot of help, BTW. 14 years of more or less continual adultery later.

Carrots and sticks, I suppose. Even in language. But carrots rarely work with WS.

With prayers,

he so mean!! WAAAAAA!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Who, me? Not trying to be. I can't help it. I was abused.

Is you a victim, honey? **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am an icon. woohooo...

I don't know about that LG, I got my [censored] handed to me here intially, I was so mad-but I was ENGAGED...I desperately tried to pick a fight with Pep even-LOL...And here I am today still posting...July will make two years...Conflict of that nature can be a very good thing for a WS...I'm living proof!


Yep, I think that's one of the greatest things about this board...Most all voices offer some value...


Hmmmm...In my waywardness I was in great turmoil much of the time...Hiding, lying, running from God...I was in TERRIBLE internal conflict...Anxiety was killing me...Life surely didn't seem easy to me!



I contemplated telling that, but it should really be his decision to tell or not...Never know when he might wish to be incognito around here again, KWIM? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I wondered what in the heck Flamingo meant when you posted it last night! LOL Makes more sense now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Glad to hear you guys are stilling processing stuff LG! I KNOW that Mr. W would love to "swing the sticks" with you! Anytime! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

P.S. TA, that was a GREAT post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

E.g. of proper use of OP bashing, during the A, AJ told me that Gargy was trying to convince him to fly away with her to meet her family.

What went through my mind: That slut!!!!!!!!!

What I said, accompanied by a faint worldly smile: My, she's really moving things along. If you go with her, she will take that as a commitment. Are you ready for that?

Once I found MB, I finally had a place to vent my feelings about the OP, lest I burst.

WS: Poor choice of venting venue.
MB: Excellent choice of venting venue.


Mrs. W, funny you should say what you did about your surprise at being told that good people don't screw other people's spouses. That was a revelation to me, as well, once it came. I always thought Gargy was the poor innocent victim, just a good person caught in a bad situation. Maybe she was a good person once. Maybe she will someday be a good person again. She is not a good person right now.

No OP is a good person right now.

That was so shocking at the time!

Listen,

I posted in order to share some knowledge I have gained, through formal training, about the psychology of a person who's involved in destructive relationship and has feelings for someone who's harming them. And about effective vs ineffective ways to reach such a person. Not according to me... but according to those who trained me. Whether or not the person is a victim is beside the point. It's all about a frame of mind and a person's (likely) natural reaction to a certain outside stimulus.

I simply asked that you consider the information when posting to WSs.

It doesn't hit close to home b/c I never even thought I was in love with XOM. In fact, I specifically pursued the affair with HIM b/c I knew he wouldn't have a problem screwing a married woman. I knew I wouldn't be rejected b/c I knew he didn't have the character to do so.

To those of you who found some merit in the information and were willing to acknowledge it -- well, thanks Pep. (I respect your opinion no mater what type of panties you wear).

To those of you who want to dismiss the idea outright -- that's certainly your prerogative.

To those of you who considered it and still disagree -- okee dokey. I certainly didn't expect universal agreement.

To those of you who want to turn a difference of opinion into a personal attack on me -- whatever. I'm sorry you're so threatened by an opposing POV. But I'm simply not going to justify accusations you pull out of your keester (sp?) with an answer.

--SC

Actually SC,

While Mel has been to assertiveness training <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, I have been to sensitivity training. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I do think that while many will think OP's pond scum to quote WAT, I do think attacking them when discussing something with the WS is not productive. So I agree with you in that people in defensive mode, don't listen very well. Couple that with a WS in "full fog", and one doesn't have a chance.

I think people are confusing sugar coating things with strategies to achieve a goal. Getting the WS defensive about an OP does make a lot of sense to me either. Telling a WS how the cow ate the cabbage, now that does make a lot of sense to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I guess I view the OP as irrelevant when dealing with BS or WS. It is the marriage that must be focussed on, and clearing the OP out of the discussion and surely out of the WS's life is the step one.

Must go, its getting late and I am sure I am not making much sense.

Interesting post SC.

JL

Smartcookie,

I while ago there was a thread where FWS’s were invited to answer questions to give insight to BS’s. One of the questions was: “Do you realize that the OP was a scumbag?”. I answered as follows:

If I had viewed OM as a “scumbag”, “cad” or whatever, I must have viewed myself as one too since I was guilty of the same behavior than him. I did think and realized that I acted very cowardly, “scummy” etc. at times, but I have never defined myself as a scummy person in spite of my bad choices and stupid mistakes. Yes, I struggled with extreme feelings of guilt, shame, unworthiness etc. but still did not view/see myself as a scummy person in spite of that…and because of that, I have a hard time too to view the OM as a scummy person. So, in a nutshell, I think my real question/problem with it is this:

Unless I view(ed) myself as a very bad & deeply flawed person/low-life/scummy/scoundrel or whatever, how can I judge OM as such because of what happened when I was guilty of the same behavior than him?

…and I guess the above question might be at the core of what this thread is all about...because the WS’s (even FWS’s) might actually experience the name calling and “attack” on the OP’s personality as an attack on themselves too since they were equally responsible and guilty of the exact same behavior during the A.

Thanks JL,

That's exactly what this is about -- strategies to achieve a goal. And techniques that have been honed through trial and error. It doesn't matter whether the person in question is a victim of abuse, a WS, or a parent feeling protective of a child.

Maybe coming from you -- a respected MB vet who's actually had some success getting through to WS's -- the message can be heard.

--SC

Hey, my friend Suzet, good to see you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But you DID view yourself this way when you had your affair. Otherwise you would have had no motivation to change. I KNOW that you felt very badly about your affair, Suzet.


Yes, they probably do and this is a good thing, IMO. when they realize that others see them in a realistic light, not their hazy fog, it is a much needed wake up call. [exposure has this effect too] In the case in question, a man who is having an affair with his brothers wife was called a "CAD." [to the WS] Which is absolutely accurate. If the WS extrapolates that to include her, well then.......... NO DUH! Much better to percieve the truth than fantasy. The truth is the solution to adultery, not more fog and deception.

The problem is that words have meanings and sometimes REALITY IS very sticky!! It just will not go away! For me, I wrote "CAD," because it is shorter than scumbag, but that was just me being lazy. CAD is very appropriate and I am OK if any WS finds that "offensive. BEING A CAD IS VERY OFFENSIVE, IMO!.

A much more appropriate analogy would have been ADDICTS; the abuse victims that smartcookie used, are a completely different breed of cat and are not even on the same planet as a WS. Waywards have an addict mindset that any addict can recognize. AA is one of the most successful self help groups in the world, and you won't hear them engaging in doublespeak and [censored] talk. Doublespeak and bullcrap words do not work with ADDICTS and they certainly don't work with fogged out waywards. It is dysfunctional.

Calling something its proper word may well be the very 2x4 that breaks through the fog. Certainly using doublespeak and weasel words to define filthy behavior and scummy people is not helpful, that is exactly what has enabled the WS to RATIONALIZE her hellish behavior in the first place. Common sense dictates that more enabling only renders similar results. Calling something its proper term is often a huge wake up call that a fogged out person needs.

The day we can't call a man who is having an affair with his brothers wife a CAD,[who isn't even here] because it might make the wayward wife "defensive" is the day I check into the nutward. And so should you folks. That is the very picture of sick dysfunctional doublespeak. That is how alcoholic families act: SICK. No thanks, I will pass. A CAD is a CAD in my book and a CAD it will remain. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SC, but you have not been "attacked." Others should realize that your viewpoint comes from that of an UNRECOVERED WAYWARD WIFE. You have no experience with recovery personally and are really not qualified to tell others how it is done.[especially others who HAVE recovered and know how it is done]

This wayward mentality and tendency to PROTECT affairees is very apparent to ME. Let's just be honest about where you are coming from. You identify with the WAYWARDS, rather than the FWS, for good reason.

You come here and do an awful lot of criticizing and nit-picking, always of betrayed spouses and/or regular contributing BOARD MEMBERS who are here doing the heavy lifting. I find it to be nothing more than a diversion.

Perhaps you should focus all that energy on FIXING yourself FIRST instead of nit-picking others who are doing the work? Fix yourself before you attempt to fix others, sc.

Once again...

"But I'm simply not going to justify accusations you pull out of your keester (sp?) with an answer."

Fine by me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Acually Mel, for someone who brags so much about being the only informed one on AA, you are off base yet again with your bull in the china shop ways disguised as "reality".
This is why your ways are so unsuccessful with helping a WS.
Your confrontational ways almost always do nothing to help a WS except make them defensive. Over and over again. You may need to go back and study up again on helping an alcoholic BEFORE they admit they have a prolem instead of after. I can't recall any experts on alcoholics recommending that they be called names or that your methods work. (as evidenced by the high rate of WS's on this site rejecting your so called "reality" methods when they first come on here. Calling them names doesn't work. Your methods haven't and don't work with a WS. It only makes them focus on reacting to your silly word games than on their own behavior. As an alcoholic, you should know this. It is one thing to be in a room with all alcoholics and calling each other names, but it is entirely different before a alcoholic has admitted they have a problem.








Works the same with WS's......

keep, I hardly think a board troll has any idea about what works or doesn't work. Just as you know nothing about Marriage Builders or its principles, you know even less about alcoholism. No one has EVER suggested that they sit in a room at AA and call each other names. Better stick to your trolling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thud!!!

NOBODY is successful in helping WS while they are still foggy. We can only fan at the fog and hope some messages get through and they stick around long enough to start listening.

But FWS, including my wife, love Ms. Lane.

Go figure.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Besides the good cop/bad cop posting styles of the various posters is EXACTLY why this place words. Conflict is GOOD...it engages them in MB whether they like us or not.

Hi Mel, good to see you too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I’m not around often these days, but I still pop up from time to time as you can see! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel, yes, I did feel very bad about myself and therefore I did feel very scummy about the feelings I had for OM, my addiction to him & my struggle to break completely away from the addiction at the time. The EA was extremely out of character for me & I felt like an extremely unworthy, weak and flawed person during and after that… But although I felt like a big scumbag and coward because of that, I however knew deep down in my heart that this wasn’t true and that I couldn't define myself this way simply because God loves me and view me as worthy person (like He view ALL people) in spite of my sins, wrongdoings, flaws, struggles etc. Therefore, I realized that I couldn’t define and judge my WHOLE being; personality and worthiness as a person on some big mistakes and wrong choices I’ve made…OR have the right and authority to define and judge other sinners (and creatures of God) this way...in spite of their actions. To be clearer: I personally belief we can and should judge a person’s actions (in a non-hypocritical way), but not a person as a being e.g. hate the sin but love the sinner (as God instructs me to do in his Word). This is often VERY difficult for me to do and I fail a LOT (especially in dealing with people who act in very "unlovable" ways) but I'm trying!

Anyway, thanks for explaining your POV Melody, I understand where you’re coming from.

Take care and thanks for your response! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Suzet

p.s. this is pretty cute coming from a girl who routinely has her posts EDITED by the mods for name calling. I seem to remember that you were recently edited for calling me a "DRUNK." Good grief.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I disagree.

Now... let me see if I can come up with some unfounded judgements and lies to post about you in order to discredit you. That's how the game is played around here, right?

I guess the question I have is:

Why bash anyone?

The justification seems to be:

It makes us feel better.

Or maybe...

It makes other people feel bad/worse (and that makes us feel better?)

Does anyone truly believe there is no difference at all between telling the truth of the matter and resorting to bashing people?

And, if you just enjoy bashing people and making them feel small (does it make you feel bigger?) then why not just come out and be honest about it - so that people who don't enjoy sadism can avoid you.

*shrugs*

Mys

sc, the only one I see here who has a "game" is you. You have an agenda, and that agenda is not likely related to recovery since you can't even do that in your in own life. Reminds me of the falling down drunk who comes to AA meetings to lecture them on recovery techniques because he fancies himself as an "expert." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Your drive-by nitpicking and criticism is really nothing more than the self serving agenda of a wayward mind disguised as "help." It is tiresome and distracting.

Keep

The very act of a WS coming to MB and posting on the infidelity section of the messages boards is itself an admission they have a problem. We don't necessarily confront them trying to convince them they have a problem...they KNOW they do, we just attempt to define the problem quite a bit different then they do.

WS's get enough coddling from the outside world. If that's what they wanted they wouldn't need to show up on MB looking for it.

Again...it's the balance of posters that works. Neither nice or bluntness alone will be as effective.

Mr. Wondering

Oh, I don't know, I hope that someone who is having an affair DOES FEEL BAD. As they SHOULD. Feeling bad is the first step in the right direction. Many waywards come here and feel very good about being bad when they should be FEELING BAD. Using weasel words and doublespeak is exactly how they have deluded themselves into believing their affair is pretty and beautiful and I don't think more of the same is helpful.

If calling a "CAD" a cad is "sadism" then I happily plead guilty. Rather, I think the sadism comes from BEING A CAD, rather than saying the word. It is a little backwards to condemn the WORD instead of the action, IMO.

I guess I am guilty of bashing the BIL in the thread in question and I did it for one reason -

BB has a trumped up fantacy going on in her head where the BIL is some kind of hero, and oh so much better than her husband.

She needs to replace that fantasy with the reality that any BIL who has had a life long crush on his brothers wife and spends a lot of time in their company is a creep.

Why in good heavens name would we want to help in her delusion by not bashing him?

We are trying to break fantasies here, aren't we?

The BS has to keep their mouths shut, but we don't.

Are you suggesting that there's no middle ground between "weasel words and double speak" and bashing?


Sadism means that you derive pleasure from the pain of others. If making someone else cringe in pain causes you pleasure, then I call you a sadist. It doesn't matter to me what the form of the sadistic behavior comes in - name calling, "bashing", having affairs, etc. Though one could argue that many (probably most) people who have affairs aren't necessarily sadists -- they derive no pleasure from their spouses pain - their pleasure comes from the addiction(affair). Their spouse's pain is incidental to their feelings of entitlement - not a central driving feature of their behavior.

If someone truly uses affairs as a way to derive sadistic pleasure from enjoying watching their spouse squirm (and I think we've seen at least one or two of those) then those people are sociopaths and probably should be avoided at all costs.

So, Melody, calling someone a "cad" might not be sadism. It all depends on how much you enjoy knowing that it's hurting another person -- does the pain excite you, enrich you or otherwise incent you to keep doing it? I have no idea how you feel about it or whether or not you consider yourself a sadist. You have to decide that for yourself.

Mys

Hmmmm...

and the two veteran posters who have agreed with my POV on this thread... I wonder what their "game" and "hidden adenda" is... ????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

you are MEAN, weaver! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And you are exactly right. All this politically correct doublespeak where we are not supposed to call something by its proper name is very dysfunctional. ugh!

I was going to jump in here - as a survivor of abuse...

But, I am having a hard time following.


Really just wanted to say ~

Mel, I Love the term CAD - it sounds so cutely yucky

OT: my neighbor is pregnant, and her H constantly referrs to the baby in her tum tum as ~

how's my critter doin' today ?

So cutely Texan !!!

Hi weaver,

I suppose "bashing" is a subjective term. Personally, I didn't consider your posts (with the exception of calling the BIL a "polecat") to be bashing. You asked some pointed questions... but you didn't rail on and on about the guy. Big difference, IMO.

One more thing, Melody Lane.

You have often described yourself as "happy" to say things that might hurt other people, etc, in the name of "telling the truth." My impression of you is that you do hope that you hurt WS's and make them feel bad and would be happy if they did.

So I do try to avoid you because I don't like that.

Just to be clear, I a not calling or "labeling" you a sadist - you can do that your own self if you feel you want to or need to. I just don't like your style and I'm pretty sure you don't like mine. To be even clearer, most of the time that I post on threads you participate in, I'm not addressing you or anything you said (not always, sometimes I do ... and I'm usually quickly reminded as to why I shouldn't do that - the resulting exchange is almost always a pointless waste of time).

I don't think you and I will ever agree because we have very different world views and communication styles. Fortunately, there's room for that on this board.

Mys

Edited for grammar. My goodness, I should wake up before I start posting in the morning.

Often there is not, but that is a completely subjective area.




I think this misses the point of what really causes "pain." Does the BEHAVIOR cause the pain or does the WORD used to describe the behavior cause the pain? I vote for the former. The WORD would not be painful if the ACTION were not.

Sadism is defined by CRUELTY and calling a CAD a CAD is not "cruel," it is honest. A person should feel BAD about being a CAD. It is not CRUEL to bring them to that realization, but COMPASSIONATE.

On the other hand, ENABLING a fogged out fantasy-bound mind set IS CRUEL because it keeps that person enmeshed in their sick little fantasy. I think it is much more appropriate to equate ENABLING with sadism. Enabling keeps people sick.

It is their BEHAVIOR that causes the PAIN, not facing the truth about who they are.

Here is what I have observed ...

for the most part, the OP is the MAIN symbol of the adultery

the adultery is the source of previously unimagined pain and humiliation

there are other symbols too, of course

but none so direct as the OP

we call the adultery cars names (F-mobile)
we call the adultery locations names (HO-tell)
we call the adultery sex names (rutting in the mud)

the adultery OP is THE symbol of the insult
THE dagger it's self

that is the reason
it is giving the pain/humiliation/rage a name

usually an insulting name
to make the BS feel less small
to make the BS feel less threatened
to make the ADULTERY look ridiculous and not romantic

name-calling the ADULTERY symbols does serve a very important purpose

it does

the names the waywards call each other are no less insulting "lover" "soulmate" "friend"

the OP bashing....

it it mature? probably not
it it expected? probably
is it therapeutic? probably somewhere on the timeline
can it shock the wayward into some right-minded thinking? sometimes
can it drive a wayward deeper into fantasy-land? perhaps

do not forget my main point

[b] [color:"red"]OP bashing is symbol bashing [/color] .... like burning the flag of the enemy

It is probably not the same as yours. Unlike yourself, they do not just come here to do drive-by nitpicking when they themselves are not in recovery. They ARE in recovery.

Yes, because they should feel bad. That is a GOOD THING. People should feel very bad about doing bad things. That is a healthy reaction. But that is not "hurtful." That is HELPFUL. Feeling bad about being bad is the first step towards recovery.

When people feel GOOD about being bad, they have no motivation to change. When people remain engaged in their own delusions they do not change. You view that as HURTFUL, I view that as HELPFUL.

When I came here I was in very deep chit on many different levels, and I could no longer tell where reality began.

I just could not see things clearly. My ex was a con artist and even my friends defended him. In reality he is a very nasty person who was destroying me. Now I played a big part in that but knew I was going downhill fast.

It helped me to start to see what part of me already knew, but I needed validation that I was not a bad person, just caught up in a bad situation.

I remember WAT (who was not the only one) but who was the most vocal calling my ex pond scum, a hypocrite, an idiot...

And as Mel and Suzette said, I felt so bad about myself and blamed myself entirely I needed to hear others bash him.

Maybe it was wrong to need him to be the bad guy in order to break my addiction to him, but it helped me. It really did.

When your family is telling you someone is a jerk you don't listen, but when an entire board reiterates the very same sentiments, you start to listen. And that is what is important, that you start to listen.

I don't feel anybody wants to be in an affair, they just need help getting out of it. And if we can help them change their mind about the OP and it helps them to break their addiction, then why not do it?

And maybe not all OP's are creeps, I am sure they are not, but while they are scr*wing somebody's spouse they certainly are not admirable, and shouldn't be admired especially by the WS.

I tried to be the OP's friend but my WH began bashing her....saying she's ugly, boring and a worse liar than him who probably already had some other guy she's cheating with.

It seems that "bashing" could be a perspective finely defined. My WH spoke the truth but I perceived it as bashing and felt sorry for her.

I realize that I'm sometimes backwards, usually late and often wrong. But my WH appears to be my FWH now and seems to be indifferent to OP so that works for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SC-

While I can appreciate (and agree with) your viewpoint, I'd caution you that this subject has been raised MANY times on this board before. The result is always the same...nothing. The thread will get locked, the moderators will edit the thread...and nothing will change.

Everyone will continue on posting how they see fit...no matter what arguments or discussions or points are raised. They post the way they post for their own reasons...and unless the moderators suddenly decide that the name calling and such is inappropriate, nothing will be done about it.

I'm notorious around here for starting exactly these same kinds of threads, or calling out others on the same issues you raise. I've quit...again, its pointless to attempt to make a change if everyone's comfortable with the way things are.

The best you can hope to do is to bring your own POV and compassion to the table when you post to someone, and hope that your posts will be an appropriate counterpoint to the ones that seem much harsher.

I have found it EXTREMELY difficult to bite my tongue whenever refering to OM with my WW as I consider him just a notch above a child molestor in my mind.

They are usually people who prey on others vulnerabilities and seem to have no conscience for their actions...at least in my case.

Not only is the BS forced to endure the humiliation of their spouse betraying them, but we must also use restraint when refering to someone who is a threat to their M and family. All the while the OP is championed as trustworthy by the WS.

I understand holding back the verbal assault if you are trying to save your M, but if you are done trying I have no problem with unleashing a verbal assualt on the OP if challenged.

Sorry, but I almost vomit at the thought of how I was "understanding" about the OP with my WW just after d-day.

HTW

Mel, please allow me to but in here and give my opinion on this:

I think most WS’s who first come here already feel bad about what they’re doing/have been doing and the fact that they reach out for help on a Marriage Builder website is definitely an indication IMO that they have taken the first step towards recovery and want to change (or get out of the addiction)… Yes, most of them might still be in a thick fog when they first get here, and that's to be expected, but at least on a subconscious level they know deep down what they’re doing is wrong…otherwise they would have not chosen to post here in the first place and seeking help (first step towards recovery).

Therefore, if you keep in mind that many WS’s who first get here are probably already full of feelings of guilt, shame and unworthiness because of their actions (as they should), extreme attempts from others to get them to feel more bad, unworthy and shameful about themselves than they already are, might probably NOT be helpful and constructive at all…but hurtful to a point that it can push them away and totally hinder or slow down personal and therefore marital recovery.

Yes, attempts to make a WS feel bad to help them wake up from their “fog” certainly have its place and can definitely help to achieve this goal (I have seen this), but…like everything in life…all things can be taken to the extreme (which is not always good) and lead to opposite results than one had first in mind. It’s not the same for each person and what might work to get one person out of the “fog” might not work for another.

Just my 2 cents.

Melody,


I don't disagree with what you are trying to achieve or what you said directly above. I think that what you're trying to achieve is good. I don't like how you attempt to achieve what you say you're trying to achieve and I also don't happen to think it's effective.

I do think some of the things you post are very inflammatory and hurtful - and I also know that you make no apologies for your style. *shrugs* My opinion is just that: my opinion. Obviously, you have quite a following on this board that think your style is laudable and very effective.

Either way, discussions between us tend to go nowhere. So, I won't address you further except to clarify where I believe I've been misrepresented.

Mys

Pep,

I appreciate your response.


So, if we burn the OP in effigy then that is a symbolic venting of the anger? Well, hopefully, we only stick to effigies.

I can understand that.


Perhaps. Maybe the trick is knowing when it's no longer theraputic? At some point, if one keeps concentrating on rebuilding and reburning that effigy, it will start to consume his/her entire life.


All right, the OP bashing that goes on in threads on this board is simply the internet equivalent of mustering up a mob of people to burn an effigy of someone to protest injustice and provide some sense of catharsis to hurting people?

All right, I hadn't thought of it that way. That does make sense and and I can see how it has a place here. It also answers my question.

Thanks, Pep.

Mys

Owl is exactly right. While I may believe that some are not forthright enough, it is not my place to dictate the posting styles of others according to my personal tastes. I don't have that kind of power over others and wouldn't assume such.

Our posts are an expression of our personalities and we all have different styles, worldviews, which is an asset to this forum. Trying to dictate the posting styles of others is not only arrogant, but an exercise in frustration and futility as Owl pointed out. Trying to control others just about ensures that disappointment will be our lot in life.

As they say in AA, you can can't control people, places or things, you can only control yourself.

I have a question on this subject regarding my personal situation. WH is having an affair with a married woman. She has obviously been playing a con game on both her own husband and my WH. Her own husband did not know anything about the affair until I exposed it although she had told WH that they were in the process of divorcing. She has been seeing WH secretly, telling her husband that she was going to some completely different place.

I know this since I have talked to OWH, we have compared their schedules and I have asked WH who did not deny anything. In the meanwhile her husband was at home with their children, I don't know how the affair has affected them but a guess is that they sense the tense atmosphere and suffer from it.

Anyway, it is apparent to me that OW is a cruel, selfish, lying, cheating b**** who doesn’t even care for her own children. That is something I can write here and tell my friends but I have not said it to WH.

When we have been talking about the affair and OW I have told him in a straight-forward way what OWH has told me, that OW had not told her husband about the affair, and when he found out how she tried to make him believe that the affair had ended. But WH "forgets" what I have told him and generally re-writes what has happened.

I have also tried to ask him questions like "Why do you think she stays with her husband while she is seeing you?" and he just says that he doesn’t know. The apparent answer to me is that she sitting on the fence and enjoys the best of both worlds (sorry about the phrasing but I could not come up with anything better). I want to ask him why he thinks OW approached him of all people in the first place, my interpretation is that it is quite safe for a married woman to have an affair with a married man and an affair was what she wanted.

What do you think, is that a good way to talk about OW? Also, I don't use her name, I call her "that person" when I have to mention her.

WH has always expressed disgust for infidelity and lies. He has been moving his moral borders during the affair but he says that the most important moral rule he is trying to keep is to not tell lies.

And that is ok with me. I often don't agree with how you attempt to help others and don't believe its effective or even clear headed. But, I do understand that none of us here knows what will be effective with a given person and that is the beauty of a diverse forum. It takes all of us.

And for what its worth...I don't like Mel's style of posting much either. I think she's harsh and critical and attacking.

I know that she thinks that I'm whimpy, whining, etc...

Neither of us is going to change, nor agree with how the other person posts.

I do think that the kinds of posts you are referring to chase off people that might have otherwise stayed, and probably resulted in marriages that weren't saved that could have been. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about it.

At the end of the day, I just hope that the ones that DO stay get the message that they need to hear...either from Mel or from me, I don't care which. The one good thing is that Mel and I DO agree in the MB principles, and when we both are telling the poster the same thing (in different ways, to be sure)...that sure should be telling someone that they need to listen.

/waves to Mel...no offense intended...again the good thing is you and I both know where we stand! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Call her "Mrs (her last name)" or "Joe's wife".

Makes a point.

Suzet, but those are not the ones who get a 2x4. The ones who get the 2x4's, both BS' and WS', are the ones who are actively operating in a state of DELUSION and try to RATIONALIZE bad behavior. The WS' who come here and express true remorse and do feel bad, rarely have it bad. Rather, they are supported and cheered on.

To try and keep this in some perspective, all this hair tearing, frothing at the mouth is over calling an OP a "CAD" to a WS who extolling the honor and virtue of this CAD. Said OP is not even here and is having an affair with his brothers wife.

Unfortunately, the fellow IS a CAD and its too bad there wasnt a similar uproar about BEING a CAD.

I got over myself and I am back, more or less. I have decided to pick my fights a bit better and more importantly, don't do what I say someone else is doing, period. I believe I sorta helped start this thread when something hit so close to home I didn't handle it very well.

I believe smartcookie is accurately presenting a valid case for method with no short cuts.


10S (will ALWAYS think of you that way, I loved the name) says:


Two people looking at the same elephant, each with a different reaction.

The point of that IS; EACH person in an affair is acting like a scummy person by definition, as we define it here on MB. No sugar coat there. And the reality is that the OPs wife or husband will think of OUR wife or husband as the scummy person. And nothing harmed by explaining that in THOSE words, no short cuts taken.

Mel is absolutely correct, you don't enable with sugar coats. Out of instinct (before MB) that is how I handled my wife and the OM. I didn't sugar coat anything. I explained consequences in clear, unmistakable language to both of them. In other words, here is what you have done, here is what you say you want to do, here are the natural and unavoidable consequences for both actions. That got me and my wife to a certain reality point and then I discovered MB and did some learning that helped us get the rest of the way. And the OM went away both because he was told to and because he could see consequences he didn't like and he believed the consequences.

But there is a point here that is an undercurrent to what everyone is saying:

It isn't enough to TELL someone WHAT they should do, you also have to EXPLAIN WHY; for what reason. And, sorry for this, we also have to explain what is in it for THEM if they are the WS. Now that one is as counter intuitive to the mindset of MB as anything I could ever say if I just left it at that. So I won't.

An alcoholic doesn't go to AA expecting to be told they are great people. They probably hit bottom and are looking for help. The last help you want to give them is to enable their excuses. An abused person doesn't go to a shelter because they like to be abused. They are looking for help.

And a WS doesn't come here looking for validation, they are looking for help. If they want validation, they can go to gloryb, it isn't hard to find. They are, yes, the equivalent of an abuser showing up at the shelter looking for help. I don't know how most shelters work, but I know about one and in that one, if an abuser showed up looking for help, they would get it, immediately.

The help they would then get would be a long discussion of consequences, anger management training and a road that includes apologies and none of it is sugar coated. But included in that process is not only WHAT they should do but WHY they should do it and HOW they should do it and what it means in a comparison between the consequences if they continue to be an abuser versus the consequences if they get religion and take another path in life. They might even spend a night or two meeting bubba in the local gray bar hotel so they can better understand consequences.

There is also a ton of training that goes on to help someone learn how not to ENABLE the abuser. I guess this is sorta like beating up on the BS or just helping them understand consequences, which is also something that goes on here, and rightfully so, as needed. Both sides learn what THEY get out of whatever, up close and personal. What they both learn is that they get a better life, however it turns out IF they take a different path than the one they are on.

So with that background, here is where I start peeling the onion. And I want to say this again. I made a mistake the other day by taking something personal. I was triggered at a fundamental level and lashed out. I knew (for me) I was right and I still think (for me) I was right, but I let it get to me instead of using reason and explaining WHY and HOW my mind set might be right for the person posting who needed help. I am trying to make up for that here.

The Harleys make a living in various ways, primary being that they advise people and even, gasp, direct people. In the process of directing people, something that not all counselors do, they explain WHY and HOW and WHAT the benefit is for the people they are talking to. If all you needed were Harley principles, you can find nearly all of them either here or in a couple of books. If all a person needed was WHAT to do, it is right here in black and white; written form backed up by the forum. Yet people still call the Harleys, they still go to IC and MC, they still post their questions here BECAUSE they don't know HOW and often, they don't understand WHY, either in terms of their PERSONAL benefit or the benefit to others and they certainly don't always understand CONSEQUENCES. In point of fact, during the fog, they see consequences we all know are almost always false and the need is for an explanation of consequences that are real.

In other words, clearly explained outcomes, the reality of which help them break through the fog of being a BS or WS. And I love Dr. Phil's great, short words of wisdom that gets people to think; "How's it working for ya." The Harley method has a beginning, middle and desired end. How the person got in the fix they are in, how they think when they are in the fix, what they need to do to change that thinking and how to get out of it the fix they are in to a desired end and WHY!

There is a great current thread running that explains the plus and minus of phone counseling. One of the best from that thread is that what the Harleys do is NOT counseling or therapy, it is DIRECTION. And in giving direction, they explain why and they detail HOW. Caveat: I have never had a session with either Jennifer or Steve. At the time, couldn't afford it. But I have seen enough posts from those who have to pick up on their tactics. As we could afford it, my wife and I have received both MC and IC from two licensed therapists, one somewhat helpful, the other a complete dud. We have also received PHONE counseling and direction from a friend who happens to be a licensed therapist, so he couldn't counsel us; yet he was the most helpful of all, even though he didn't do it except as a friend would do, if you get my drift. And he was helpful because he explained WHY we each did what we did and the consequences.

Here is a great quote from Mrs.W.


In other words, what Mrs.W was throwing away. And subtly, that WAS an education in affairs along with explaining the OP is indeed a cad as posted above. She started to see reality as it was and WHY seeing reality was of benefit to HER, personally. Given a peek at reality, MrsW was then more receptive to WHAT and HOW.

My point is that telling people WHAT to do isn't always going to work. In fact, it usually doesn't work unless in response to a specific question where background is understood by all. The reverse of that is ASKING people what to do without explaining all the circumstances and the clear outcome desired. That can lead to wild speculation and blind canyons as Gimble found out in his thread. He eventually got it out, but it took a while. I hope he tells us what he did that worked.

Now we get to my beliefs as applied to this situation.

I believe that it is not enough to tell someone WHAT to do. (whack). This is where I lost it. I relived in my mind being gutted like a fish a couple of years ago. And I knew that telling my wife WHAT to do THEN would have left me in a sorry state indeed. So I reacted emotionally. I remembered that I gave her choices and consequences. I remembered that method had worked, at least for me and my wife and kids. We would not be where we are today if all I had told her what to do. She was too deep in the fog to get it without all the rest I supplied.

I believe it is alright to ask someone to do something that is to THEIR benefit (even with a whack), if you also explain WHY they should do it, help them with HOW they should do it, and clearly state WHAT is in it for them. AND, explain the consequences if they DON'T do it and the consequences if they actually do it. In other words, a complete reality check as best can be determined. That takes a while. Sometimes we don't have a while. In that case, mouth shut as I should have done, is probably the best path.

In my opinion, and here is where I am going to upset a few folks, some, including me, have been here for some time and longevity has obscured our own past. When addressing someone, it is human nature to attempt to put ourselves into someone Else's shoes, or GET THEM TO WEAR OURS! How do you do that when what happened to you is long ago and far away or we relive it in an uncertain way? Some of us forget what it was like BEFORE we were steeped in Harley forum tradition and Harley teachings. We know WHAT someone should do, but we forget that person is clueless WHY AND HOW. So we attempt to tell people what to do without all the WHY and HOW that goes with it. And sometimes we beat on people in the hopes it will make them feel better about themselves. That old dog won't hunt either in most cases, in my opinion. It isn't New Years, but I just found my resolution for my posts in the future.

Harley's teaching and directed counseling is full of WHY someone does what they do, HOW they got in their fix and WHAT to do about it and specifically teaches WHAT is in it for THEM, the WS, the BS and the KIDS and all the rest.

There are not short cuts to the Harley process. And we certainly need the wisdom of those who have been here a long while and seen it all. But in my opinion, we don't need the mind set that the newbie should know more than they know or follow our direction just because. Explaining something is hard work. I failed to explain myself in that recent post that earned the ire of a long time poster here, Mel. I was wrong. And in my opinion, so was Mel because Mel failed to cover WHY and HOW in her advice to the person seeking help. I am sure Mel will disagree except the part where I was wrong. And all the discussion in the world won't change either of our minds. So I am going to drop it, but of course Mel can say whatever she want to says and without my rebuttal. That is her right, if not the course of action I would recommend.

The WISDOM of this thread is method. smartcookie has posted a valid method that was developed by the professionals. I believe that method has value here. I also believe that there is a place for blunt talk. Certainly Mel's point about AA is valid. But I don't believe in short cuts. I don't believe that a newbie has all the knowledge they need to follow direction without explanation, consequences, benefits, the why and how of a path that is rocky enough without rocks thrown at the newbie's head because the poster had expectations that were based on what THEY knew instead of the reality of what the newbie was likely to know.

In other words, no sugar coats, but also no short cuts. Leaving out why, how, consequences and how's your current mind set working for you is, in my opinion, a short cut; a trap that is easy to fall into. Plan A is both a carrot and a STICK. Just using the carrot or just using the stick doesn't work. No short cuts.

In Plank's words, I will now crawl back under my rock. But I will be listening to words of wisdom. I sure as heck don't think I know it all, otherwise I might just do it for a living, and I don't and won't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

PS: Mel, your last post was great as an example of a fully developed point of view. You explained yourself. I have no quibble with what you posted, nor do I have any quibble with what smartcookie posted either. Both of you posted your individual points of view and now the reader can decide. It was a lack of explanation where I went bonkers because it hit so close to home, a place where I don't ever want to see again or have anyone else see. In my opinion, you took a shortcut with your direction to the person who needed help and in my opinion, that was counter productive but I should have ignored our post and taken a different path. In other words, I thought at the time you meant well but were not doing well based on my own experience, if that makes sense.

Thanks Owl, I think we make a good tag team sometimes and I do appreciate your posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I do not believe we have the power to run off anyone who really wants help, though. If a WW is run off because we call a CAD a CAD, she left because she didn't want to face the truth, and for no other reason. A person who really wants help could not be run off by wild horses. She was looking for a forum that would tell her what she wanted to hear and feed her denial; and thankfully this is not it. Those kind of forums are out there, ie: gloryb.

Secondly, I actually know of a BETRAYED SPOUSE that claims he was "run off " by smartcookie's posts to him. So before she commences to scold the rest of us about "running people off" she needs to take a look in the mirror. [JohnnyMac ring a bell, sc??] This was a BS, a victim, and she attacked him for absolutely no reason.

That being said, he left of his own accord. She may have made it uncomfortable for him, but that was entirely his decision, his choice.

Larry, I appreciate this feedback and actually felt the same way when you responded to that very post. You simply responded "I DISAGREE" without ever explaining what you disagreed WITH much less supporting your disagreement, which I found frustrating. Granted, you did come back and correct that situation by explaining yourself, but perhaps we can both learn from this and do a better job of explaining what we mean.

Even so, if someone says something you need clarified, or expanded, all you have to do is ASK for clarification. That is normally the most effective route. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wish I had seen this post before I sat down for an hour and attempted to explain what I believed. I guess I better focus on what I do that I believe works and not worry about others. Except then I don't learn from outside myself. And I do have things to learn.

Thanks Owl.

Larry

Mel:


Yes it is.

Larry

Yes, thanks Owl.

I know exactly what you're saying.

Which is why I tried to frame it as, "Hey, here's something I have learned, from professionals, about how to reach someone in a certain frame of mind. I think it's applicable here. And ya'll might want to consider it when posting to WS's."

It wasn't aimed at any particular poster. Although it was a post on BB's thread (NOT one of Mel's, BTW) that sparked the idea in my head.

Of course everyone is free and welcomed to agree or disagree about whether the technique I'm advocating has merit when communicating with a WS. And if the discussion had remained focused on that -- rather than turned into yet another tired debate about the "rights" of everyone to post as they see fit, and a bunch of personal attacks -- I think the thread might have been productive.

I guess I expected too much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

--SC

I do have questions for anyone and everyone who cares to respond.

Lots of bashing going on here from a lot of sides.

Has anything changed? (See Owl's post)

Has the bashing (by all sides) helped?

Has anyone learned anything?

Has anyone been helped?

I think that the goal of helping people restore their relationship is a good thing. Methods vary. So do the results based on those methods. A complete and full discussion of those methods is often a good thing and can actually infuence people to do the right thing, whatever that is.

Larry

[color:"red"] Mys[/color]



I very much agree.

The time comes in RECOVERY to drop the weapons & symbols of war <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Larry, I think this thread demonstrates a very important lesson, and Owl hit upon this: WE CAN ONLY CONTROL OURSELVES - WE CANNOT CONTROL OTHERS.

None of us here has the power to control the posting styles or methods of any other poster. And believe me, many folks have tried.

People post according their OWN standards, not to appease the personal dictates of others. To believe otherwise is an exercise in futility and frustration. It never works and is always an unproductive board diversion that takes valuable time away from people who really DO need help.

When will we ever learn?

Mys,


While Pep does make a good point...

Just to clarify -- I NEVER suggested that all OP bashing is unproductive. I tried to explain why OP bashing specifically TO a WS can be counter-productive.

Nor was I complaining about anybody getting their feelings hurt or getting "run off". I was talking about using a technique (or perhaps eliminating the technique of OP bashing) in order to reach a certain goal.

My original post had a very specific and narrow focus. Now it's a free-for-all.

--SC

Most threads do take on a life of their own, that is the nature of a thread. And that is ok.

Larry,



Well put. Sadly, some people can't seem to have a civil discussion about methods without getting all defensive and taking a "you can't tell ME what to do!" stance.

Such a bummer.

--SC

Cookie

I do get your point.


One of my tricks when deciding to post to a WS is to ask some questions to sort of gauge where they were character-wise pre-fog .... then look for a crack to apply my crow bar <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

sometimes I think attacking the OP character is not going to be effective, but sometimes I think it will help

varies

and I am sometimes completely wrong in my assessment

but, HEY, it's awl good

oh quit with the dramatics. We did discuss your method. Just because folks didn't agree with your analogy comparing a WS to an "abuse victim" doesn't mean it wasn't discussed. IT WAS.

Yes it was, in some posts. Some agreed and explained why. Others disagreed and explained why. Still others advanced the a civil discussion about other times and places when OP bahsing may or may not be productive. It's all good.

And then there's all the petty [email]cr@p[/email] in between.

Larry


For whom?

I think the composition of the board has changed some -- as people come and go. Some people's stories just seem to pop out and grab you and I wonder where some of them have gone. On to bigger and better things, I always hope.

For me, personally, I guess a lot has changed. Maybe I've grown up some or maybe I've just become a little more jaded. I think there was a time when I first started posting here that I believed that reasonable minds could agree to disagree nicely (not always true as has been demonstrated here on this forum, I am not referring to this thread ).


Helped who?

I guess there might be some people who respond to that type of approach and no other. Or, perhaps they even prefer it or it's most effective. From my vantage point it generally just tends to become circular.

I also just have very serious personal objections against using shaming techinques against people as I consider them to be abusive. I don't believe anonymous message boards make abusive behavior OK. And, I often wonder if people would use the same language, the same escalation of emotion, and the same techniques if there was a flesh and blood person sitting in front of them instead of a text editor. Or, to be even more specific to each and EVERY flesh and blood person sitting before them if there was a rotating number as we have here. I even know that's probably hypocritical of me because I do know that my communication here is definitely much different than how people experience me in so called "real life." Is it license or is it a limitation of the media which we're using?


I've learned a lot. I've learned about points of view I never even knew existed - and maybe even provided a few that others didn't know existed.


I think my marriage is better because of MB. It's been a place to come and get alternate perspectives, if nothing else. Just because all of the alternate perspectives might not fit doesn't mean they have no value.


I don't think you'd get the majority of the board to agree ON the "right" methods.

What I mean is, that there seem to be wildly different opinions on the application (or meaning), timing (or length), appropriateness, reasons, etc. of the key MB plan components. (And, no, I'm not trying to start another argument on any of it.)

I think, in large part, each poster's style/board personality is affected by where they fall along the spectrum of the collective understanding of the key components - and not just their particular use of linguistic style to convey meaning.

I don't think we'll ever be able to level set. I don't think a homogenous community would be more effective in a general sense -- though it might be much, much more effective for people who fit into the homogenity.

But, I do think the original post in this thread -- mentioning to the BS that it's a bad idea to bash the OP to their, specific, WS is a valid point. I do think it alerts BS's to the defensiveness that might happen -- and I think in a way it protects the BS from harm because that might be one less pitfall they have to stumble down because it was discovered by those who have gone before. (How hurtful must it be to sit there and listen to your WS defend the OP - which seems to happen a lot. It isn't right, but it's more "business as usual" and "something you might expect" - while dealing with a WS.

I've thought a lot about what Pep said to me: maybe coming here and burning the OP in effigy on this board is a better form of catharsis for the BS to engage in. Certainly, it seems like it might do less damage over all.

Mys

I saw you use your trick recently Pep and I learned from it. Thanks for the lesson. The other lesson I learned is that there is merit in the concept "Sometimes."

Thank you.

Larry

Does NO ONE get my pun?

are you people asleep at the wheel?

Mrs. W ~ did that really never occur to you until you read that here? That "good people" do not screw other people's spouses?

MYS:


I agree and thanks cookie for bringing up the discussion of that particular point.



I have no points of disagreement with you on your post. The other point I picked out to respond to is that I learned what you are talking about yesterday and I am going to apply it to something going on with another person here.

Larry

Are you refering to your thong again???

My husband was singing OW's praises to me pre-discovery ... because she was visiting ~his~ mother

"She is such a good person."

it ain't that unusual for the foggy to have rose-colored glasses when it comes to viewing OP .... they are "good"

Free association is a sign of mental health, smartcookie.

And speaking of cookies, is it lunch time yet? I'm sooooo hungry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PS I am glad to see you posting again SC! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yep. No longer do they think the way they used to Mrs. W (and me) would have known it was bad before, but once in the addiction the mind just does not work the same way as it did before. So I believe somethings just really do not occur to the foggy.

Er, care to explain yourself, uh, please.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Larry

Yeah, c'mon Pep... I have to get off the computer and I want to know.

MF...

It really never did, shocking as I KNOW that sounds...I was so completely fogged out and believing all the "assoulmate" nonsense that I was living completely in another world...FANTASYLAND..."Soap Opera" world even...Especially since OM and I had dated off and on for nine years during high school and college...I had a real hero complex regarding OM-I thought of him as "rescuing me" (SO LAUGHABLE to me now) as he had done many times legitimately in the past...when I was SINGLE and it was appropriate-I couldn't see the forest for the trees...I had some silly, EXTREMELY IMMATURE, romanticized notion that we were "star crossed lovers" *gagpukevomit*...so "meant to be"...we'd just "lost our way" over the years...Good Grief, I was starring in my very own HOlequin HOmance novel...COMPLETE BULLCRAP...(LOL, Speaking of "bullcrap" one Ms. MelodyLane told me something VERY similar when I first got here...I spouted some ridiculous fog drivel and she posted a hilarious little emoticon of a bull "doing his business" and she said something like "Here's what we call what you just said in Texas!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...It was FUNNY, TRUE and I did not feel bashed one bit...I like straight up no nonsense talk...Worked wonders for me...She and Pep neither one let me get by with my shannanigans back then! Thank God for them!)

Mrs. W

P.S. Btw Larry, in your first post on this thread it appeared that you attributed the above quote of MINE to smartcookie...It's all good, but I just wanted to let you know for clarity! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pepisms for dummies

refering to finding a crack

"It's awl good!"

awl good here [color:"red"]<~~~ for poking at cracks [/color]

I thought I'd told you to layoff the CRACK lady!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. I think you're really PUNNY btw! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

SC,

“My original post had a very specific and narrow focus. Now it's a free-for-all.”

Back to your original point: In fact, many professional counselors and psychologists strongly disagree with what you say you were taught. The Stockholm syndrome and its variants, interpretations, such as the subject situation, and treatments are not considered rigorous. In fact, deprogramming of cult individuals specifically eschews being nice about the cult and its leaders.

Everyone is different. Even WS. Lumping all sitchs under one rule is probably not a good approach. Better to give the BS a number of approaches and ideas and, yes, even extreme words to use, and then help them do what they believe will work best in their sitch, don’t you think? This might include to tell WS the unadulterated truth about what BS feels about OP. Or should BS have to take their feelings about OP on the chin like everything else?

If your esteemed teachers are saying, in effect, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, well then OK. I’ll recommend we all praise WS, their OP, and all their actions ‘till the cows come home if that’s what works and that’s what you want.

But remember this: you catch the most flies of all with unadulterated manure.


Why does telling the truth = bashing? When does BS get to tell their truth, anyway? When?

SC, in all of the posts I recall having read of yours, you rarely and perhaps never display empathy for BS. Only WS. Why is that?

Lastly, what do you think of the MC I mentioned above that we had years ago that did not want us to use the word adultery to describe what WW was doing?

ed: It occurs to me exposure to OP's friends and family also falls entirely within your recommendation to not to upset WS by appearing mean to OP.

Aph...I know that you didn't ask this question of me, but I'd like to render a guess...On another infidelity site, SC has in her signature line that her most recent Dday was just back in November of 2006 for a one night stand that happened in 1996...It's my opinion that SC has remained in the WS mindset for a VERY long time...Explains a lot in my book...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W ~ thanks so much for explaining this...I have this deep need / desire to want to get inside WSs heads, to try to better understand foggy thinking. I can see and hear it coming from WSs or even FWSs before they completely de-fog, but seeing it and hearing it does not necessarily mean understanding it. So, I am still trying.

FWSs are so useful around here, and very impressive as well. It is a very noble and brave thing to do, air your dirty laundry here ~ but sure goes miles and miles in earning respect and admiration back, and I am sure also helps tremendously in earning some trust back. Sounds like it also helps to clear your mind from the fog.

In an intervention of an alcoholic or drug addict as well. Nothing is shielded from the addict as to the harm he is doing to himself and others. OR about the harm of his drug of choice.

Can you imagine having an intervention and then saying, well vodka isn't so bad. It is not the vodka's fault, vodka is just a drink.

In reality vodka is poison, and so is an AP.

Ditto on everything you said here, Aph.

Thank you for posting it. People don't understand the deep pain a BS feels when they are told that they need to listen to WS sing the praises of OP. Shoot, even referring to the OP as a "good person" is like driving a knife through the BSs heart.

Because what we're thinking is "Well, gee ~ you've called me a "good person" too. So you're gonna lump me and OP in the same category? OP, someone who tried to break up a marriage, slept with a married person, and aided you in "raping" me?,and who volunteered to get involved with a married person? That is the same as me, the BS, the one who had no say in any of this, whose life has been ripped to shreds, and who then tries desperately, and sometimes repeatedly to save their marriage? To offer to try to forgive you for this indescribably painful transgression? We're in the same category?".

That is so hurtful, like we aren't hurting enough.

Aphelion,

Well, first let me claify that I did NOT mean to suggest that anyone should "be nice" about OPs. Or "praise" WS or OPs. Was I really that unclear?

The absense of bashing doesn't mean you have to go to the other extreme.

I also never mentioned anything about how BS's should or shouldn't communicate with their own WS's.

I'm not sure how to re-word what I actually WAS talking about in order to make it more clear.

I'm sorry.

Is it technically even possible for me to have empathy for a BS? Since I've never walked in those shoes? I do know what it's like to be betrayed by someone who's supposed to love and protect me. I know how deeply that hurts. But it was a family member (actually two of them) not a spouse, so it's probably a little different.

I DO think I have shown SYMPATHY to a number of BS's. HopeThisWorks comes immediately to mind, since he just posted on this thread. Maybe he'd disagree and would care to set me straight if he's still reading. (??)

I guess I feel empathy for WSs, b/c I know that it hurts to be on this side of the equation too.

I'll have to go back and re-read you post on that counselor... but my first thought is... I don't understand his objection to that particular word.

I'll check back tomorrow... gotta go for now...

--SC

Oh, and Mrs. W... I can speak for myself, thank you very little.

SC it's clear by your signature here that you weren't doing that...Truthfully anyway...That makes no sense to me btw...Why be honest (I presume) in one place and not another? I believe that people should know what perspective the information that they are reading is coming from, don't you?

So, Aph questioned why you post the way you do, I believed that I had the answer to that question and so I gave it...*shrug*...Your welcome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Bull crappy... on that side of the equation are ones that hurt others... and frankly any and every amount of pain they feel as a result of their actions is just too friggin bad. And you might want to work on your empathy for the victims of the WS.... since they are the ONLY victims in this equation.... the WS CHOOSES their path... the BS is a unwilling rider on the smut bus.

Gotta admit up front that I have not read all the comments. This thread really took off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I will respond to the original post from SC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: It is never good to bash. Present a correct description and statement at a time when the recipient can handle the info is appropriate. What we don't want t/d is water down the OP's true status.

The difficulty I have experienced and seen is that the BS needs to know and vent that the OP is a bad person. In reality both WS and OPs are bad people. Plain simple fact.

What saddens me is to read that a WS or even OP is a good parent or good person. They USED TO BE a good parent or person but as a WS or OP they are NOT. Not while they retain that title. Another fact. Just because the person (WS/OP) does some good things does not earn them the same title as a faithful spouse and good parent. JMHO of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Why NOT to bash the OP? Because of the fog. The WS can't handle the fact that they have taken a step down by choosing the OP. Additionally most WS' are addicted and can't always control or stop their destructive course. This is does NOT mean we can excuse their behavior. By NO MEANS should this ever be an excuse. Still it s/b recognized. In fact this knowledge can be used as a tool to help the BS and eventually when the proper time arises, help the Xws. I have done this myself.

When a WS defends the OP, it hurts the BS and it is meant to. The BS' need to realize this and turn this hurtful Ws tactic around, then give the WS back their guilt. This requires the BS to have their mind and heart in sync. This is hard t/d but can be managed via tools like reverse babble. The objective is to be strong enough to hear those hurtful words, not react emotionally and turn it around and kick it back big time by often using the WS' own words against them. It works.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Orchid: In my case, I did 'bash' the OP. She just made it sooo easy. The trick is that I only used the words that correctly applied to her. Her own conduct allowed me to correctly apply most of the vile words in our language. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. On the flip side, since I had done a fair plan A and really was never one to cuss in the past, the OW tried very hard to paint me as bad as she was. I was coated in MB teflon and it slid right off.

I recall when the OP called me an F'n B. Hm.... I told her it was not possible for me t/b that for her and that she already was a B but I wasn't. LOL!!! Yea.... I learned to RB quickly. It left her speechless and this OW could babble for hours (verified by her XH, WS, the cell phone bill and the stacks of tapes she attempted to introduce as evidence in court). LOL!!!


Orchid: Initially, I agree. Eventually the BS ought t/b able to call the OP whatever they want. After all, the OP earned those names. Oh yea.... stick to what is correct. You will find that many an OP deserve t/b called a lot of bad things.

The point is if the OP stops being an OP, then the name calling will naturally drop off (in most cases). If the OP retains the title, well.... why not keep the descriptions accurate?

I am still waiting for an apology from PBR (OW). Since I don't have one, she still retains those titles. In fact, I have lately been thinking about exposing to her family and the A has been over for over 3 years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

I agree with this VERY much Orchid, and I don't feel one bit "bashed" by it...When I was a WS, I was NOT a good person or a good parent...In fact, my actions showed me to be a VERY selfish and destructive BAD person...That is NOT who I am today, however...Today my actions show me to be a very good person and parent and my boundaries with members of the opposite sex are iron clad...Thankfully there can be repentance and redemption...I am very grateful to have God's and Mr. W's forgiveness...Priceless gifts...


I agree with this too, however, Mr. W and I will never know the status of OM, nor do we feel the need to, as we are that serious about NC...What we do know is that OM was NOT a good person during the affair...Who he is today is of no relevance or consequence to us...Ah, indifference is a beautiful thing!

Mrs. W

Mrs W.,

You are the perfect example of how it is possible to lose that WS title. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The effort you have put forth and the cooperation along with forgiveness you have received from your H is a good example for us.

While that experience will never be forgotten, still moving forward as a couple for the M is something that can be attained in true recovery.

I am not saying the BS totally forgets. But there comes a time when recovery is good that the A is not a show stopper in the M. It is crushed, pulverized and the family moves forward to build a better life.

Whether the Op stays as an OP or not is no longer important. Though I must admit that I would like to warn the rest of her community (like a scarlet letter tattooed to her forehead). LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Well, in my case, letting at least 1 of her neighbors and the local police department know was enough. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All the best,
L.

AWWWW Orchid...Why thank ya ma'am...What a wonderful thing to say! That's so very nice to hear and I truly appreciate it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

My sincere pleasure, Mrs. W. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I truly mean it from the bottom of my heart.

With all the pain we see out here on this board, knowing you and Mr. W along with other recovered spouses gives light and life to those who feel like all has been pulled out from under them.

When I 1st came here there were a couple of recovered spouses posting here and they helped me see the vast difference between suspected recovery and true recovery.

Trueheart was one of them. I am forever indebitted to him.

Aloha,
L.

Mel, I understand what you're saying and although this is usually the case, I don't completely agree. Unfortunately I have seen some truly remorseful FWS’s who lefts these boards after attempts from others to make them feel more bad, unworthy and shameful about themselves than they already were at the time. And those FWS’s I’m referring to was not in a state of delusion or tried to rationalize their bad behavior. They simply didn’t feel safe to post here anymore and be honest & open about their feelings and internal struggles during withdrawal and early recovery.

One specific FWW I still clearly remember who was treated this way was Broken Vessel. She was a sincere and good person who strayed. She was in intense withdrawal from the OM and in a deep depression because of that. At the time she was very fragile, she was in a lot of pain and her emotions were still very raw. She missed the OP but at the same time experienced much guilt because of that... She shared her feelings about it openly and honestly on this board but eventually she stopped posting, unregistered and even deleted most of her post from this board.

I know that just because someone leaves the board, doesn't necessarily mean that the board has "drove them away", but IMO that was definitely the case with BV and RAP. RAP (another truly remorseful FWW) left the board as a direct result of BV’spoor treatment on this board… Like BV, RAP was also in withdrawal, very fragile and early in recovery and she didn’t feel safe posting here anymore after what happened to BV. I think if I was in the same stage of withdrawal and recovery at the time than them, I also wouldn't post here anymore at the time... Luckily, while I was in early recovery & intense withdrawal, I mostly lurked here and rarely post. I felt too vulnerable at the time to post my feelings openly and honestly and after what happened to BV back then, I'm glad I never did... I wanted to do it (because I needed a place to vent and get my feelings out about my internal struggles) but I was afraid to do it exactly for what happened to BV.

Also, the thing that really has gotten me the most about BV’s treatment on the board back then, was how cruelly she was mocked because of her postings to JL.

I know all of this happened a long time ago, but I still clearly remember it and gets sad when I think back about it (for some reason I deeply related & emphasized with BV) and I wanted to use it this post it as an example to explain to you why I don’t completely agree with your statement that only delusional WS’S who rationalize their bad behavior gets 2x4’s.

Suzet,

The WS' who were raging WS' when they came to MB rarely stayed. The longest one I recall is SNL. He was a full blown WS who had much interaction with many on MB due to his love to banter. Still in the end, he was and is an unrepentant WS.

As for BV, RAP or others.....there is and is a big difference between them vs those like SNL and yet another group of Xws who are truly recovered spouses.

Seems those like BV are in that rut and stay there. This frustrates others who may have been trying to help but if the person keeps throwing the life preserver back, after a while there is no more energy to expend on someone who is bent on straddling the fence.

On the flip side there were those who initially posted as WS' then Xws then as recovered spouses. These have met the challenge in their personal and MB lives (as posters) and gained the respect of many.

While it is sad to see a poster leave without being able to really benefit from the support and help here, it is their choice. One thing I learned is you can't help if a person does not want t/b helped.

I spent many a sleepless night worrying about a BS, Xws, etc. who would post here all the while dealing with the A problems in my own household. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> It broke my heart to see a BS turn WS, then leave or an Xws turn back to a WS and leave while trying to blame others for their choice. Yet I had to learn that I did the best I could to help and sometimes it is better to let go. I believe in time those will learn but they must do so at a pace they can handle. There is no guarantee and it is not their right that we all be here when they come to their senses. So if and when a WS or Xws comes back to post, they may feel they are starting all over again, because in reality, they are.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid, BV and RAP were still new and early in recovery & withdrawal while they were posting here. So the group of XWS who are truly recovered didn’t apply to them at the time. Full recovery takes a lot of time (as you know).

Not necessarily. Nobody knows if BV has ever truly recover or not because she stopped posting here after the cruel treatment she received on this board.


If BV had already been in recovery and withdrawal for a long time while she was in that rut or a long time poster, I could understand the frustration, but this was not the case. Most FWS’s usually experience this “rut” somewhere during withdrawal and struggle to get out of it, especially if withdrawal is intense and take a long time (I know because I’ve been there myself). And I can tell you, as a FWW who had been in this rut myself (it took me 18 moths to get through withdrawal), that I had been extremely impatient and frustrated with myself. And this “rut” I struggled with added to my feelings of guilt, shame etc. and I’m sure the same was the case with BV. I could read and sense the frustration with herself in her posts. In my way I tried to help her.

Anyway, the people on the board who have gotten impatient with her and felt they were getting tired of “wasting energy” on her, could have simply stop posting to her instead of the treatment she received (which obviously added to her feelings of frustration, guilt, shame, unworthiness, failure etc).

I’ve never got the impression that BV didn’t want to be helped. But again, if some posters felt this way, they could have simply ignored her/stop posting to her instead of acting destructive and hurtfull.

Suzet,

I appreciate your response and POV.

You are right that we will never know about BV. What we do know is recovery takes effort and yours has attested to this fact.

Whether a person who was a WS chooses to take that recovery path or leave the M, is a personal choice.

Can a person be scared off of MB? Yes. But if recovery is truly a life saving effort, it w/b worth the effort to see it as a challenge on how much it takes to have recovery.

I am not saying this because I want to see the WS suffer. No. Rather it does take effort and more often than not, the Xws wants the BS and family to sweep it all under the rug and gets angry when they don't oblige.

To those types of XWs', I think it's best NOT to help them until they are ready to accept proper help. In some cases, it is giving them the time to heal, in other cases it requires a reality check and in still others it requires some major shaking up. The world of the WS should NOT be tolered. Withdrawal or not, the WS needs to realize that their choices is what led to the withdrawal. It is a difficult road to travel but it will make one appreciate their family more if they have to work hard for what was previously taken for granted.

We know Rap is back posting. This is a good sign. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BV, we don't know. Not that we need to but because we don't know we can't really say what her current recovery status.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,

I appreciate response and POV too.

Yes, I saw that and I’m glad about it too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Orchid, I just want to say that – as far as I can recall – I have never seen you posting in a cruel, hurtful or disrespectful way towards anyone on these boards and I truly admire that about you and think you are a great example! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately I can’t say the same thing about myself since there has been times in the past where I’ve lost my anger on these boards towards some posters and said unkind things in the process which I afterwards regretted… But so each one of us have our shortcomings, but as long as one are a “willing spirit” to try and improve there’s much hope!

Suzet, if I left every time someone made me "feel bad" I would have been gone the first month when Lexxy, a WS, read me the riot act. If you left everytime a poster made you "feel bad" you would have been gone years ago.

There is no "feel good" entitlement for WS'. BS's feel damn bad, too, and they are the victims. Where is their ENTITLEMENT? They wanted to feel safe in their own marriage and didn't even get that. A person who leaves everytime they "feel bad" has other issues, first of which is an unrealistic expectation about a diverse forum with a lot of people. That is the nature of a forum.

We have no control over how a person "feels" or what makes them "feel" safe; no one here has that kind of power. If a person runs every time they feel bad, they probably have weak characters that often run from adversity.

People will leave for various reasons. That is their choice and their problem. No one here has any control over that. Nor can we control how one person is going to react to various posters. If a person leaves, it is not the end of the world. They either get help somewhere else or just really don't care, which is usually the case. The ones who REALLY want help here, GET HELP.

I know of betrayed spouses who claim to have been RUN OFF by waywards from this board. [JohnnyMac was attacked by smartcookie and left] But he made the choice to leave and is responsible for that outcome.

Nor would I think it would be none too smart to come on an adultery forum and pine away about your affair [missing it and whatnot] in a room full of victims. That is stupidity personified and just asking to have your [censored] handed to you. How utterly thoughtless and cruel. I'm sorry, but anyone who believes they should feel "safe" doing that deserves what they get. Good grief...

I guess I don't understand why we keep having this conversation because it is so futile. We can't control who leaves or stays [only the mods can do that], we cannot control the "feelings" of others, and we cannot fashion the posts of others to suit our own personal standards. We have no POST POLICE board that screens posts. [if we ever do, I get to be the sheriff since I am from Texas! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We can only control our OWN posts, our OWN SELVES. We can never control others.

I actually agree with you MEDC... to a point.

Yes, we cause some of our own pain through our choices and actions. And yes, we cause a ton of pain to others. And for that we must take responsibility.

But...

I happen to believe that most (if not all) destructive human behavior ORIGINATES from pain.

A lot of alcoholics and drug addicts start abusing substances in order to dull their emotional pain. As they get further and further entrenched in their addiction, they often take innocent victims down with them, but their own pain intensifies too. I believe they are worthy of sympathy/empathy/compassion. Don't you? In fact, it's my understanding that compassion is a central part of the teachings in Al-anon and other support groups for the family members of alcoholics and addicts. No?

Likewise...

In general... happy, emotionally healthy people don't cheat on their husbands and wives. We are usually in some sort of emotional pain BEFORE we jump off that cliff. Sometimes intense emotional pain.

Having compassion for a BS is easy. A no-brainer. Having comapssion for an adict, an abuser, or a cheater is harder. Maybe it requires a first-hand understanding of what it's like to be in that position. Or maybe just a higher level of wisdom. Either way... just because you demonstrate compassion for a WS... that does NOT mean you have NO compassion for a BS. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I believe almost all human beings are deserving of sympathy and compassion... unless they are truely evil to the core... and I seriously doubt you'd find such a person posting here.

--SC

NOT AT ALL. The worst thing you do to an alcoholic is give him sympathy. Sympathy for what? Perhaps compassion if you consider TOUGH LOVE to be "compassion". Alcoholics/addicts recover through TOUGH LOVE measures, not doublespeak and misplaced sympathy. One of the most "compassionate" things that happen to some alcoholics is spending time in JAIL.

People who show "sympathy" to addicts are just viewed as targets for exploitation, aka FOOLS, by the addict. We WANT pity and sympathy because it helps keep us SICK. Sympathy only ENABLES the addict.


And sometimes people are just immoral, selfish and self centered and care nothing for their victims. You continue to try to portray waywards as "victims", sc. They ARE NOT.

I heard this on the radio the other day:

"misplaced compassion gives power to EVIL."

I think that is very, very true.

This will get the addict nothing but dead, SC.

If you love someone you do not enable their destructive behavior.

If my daughter started doing drugs she would be out of my house in a second flat. I LOVE her that much. If she became a liar and a cheat as an adult she would be out of my life as well. I LOVE her that much to not have sympathy/compassion/empathy for behavior that would destroy her.

SC, I love all people and know the devastation of hurting others. I will not have compassion for people who are cheating/lieing. When they stop, yes. Absolutely.

If one were to agree with that****edit******and logic, then the WS also has no control over how the BS feels when the WS is in the midst of their affair. That is NOT reality. ****edit**********


*******edit***************

Yes, and I know a chronic, acute alcoholic youner than me who wanted to go to jail. Got in enough trouble to go to jail for a year infact and this literally saved his life.

The most compassionate thing you can do for a spouse sometimes is tough love, while you still have enough love left for them to take them back after they bottom out.

Bottoming out SC, is often the only way to work through emotional pain and become healthy and whole.

Aphelion,

Silly me. At first I actually thought you were asking me questions b/c you wanted to hear the answers. Sometimes I can be so naive.

But your post did get me to thinking, and helped me come to a realization.

After I logged off yesterday, I started thinking about the BS's here for whom I've felt compassion. You'd have to ask them whether or not I've adequately EXPRESSED my compassion to them. Some, I don't think I've ever actually posted to b/c I couldn't think of anything to say or add that would be helpful. But anyway... on the list of those for whom I've at least FELT compassion are rprynne, ChaCha, TruBluz, HealingBird, HopeThisWorks, Mywifeilove, Nia... and I'm sure there are others.

Then I asked myself, why these particular posters? For most of them, I became interested in their stories and started to feel sympathetic/empathetic toward them b/c some aspect of their situation was similar to mine. Or in some cases... several aspects.

But what I realized is that the other thing that ties all of these particular people together is -- they have shown THEMSELVES to be compassionate people. It was much easier for me, as a FWS, to care about about them b/c of that.

And THEN what I realized... is that, if I want to grow and stretch myself, I should try to be more compassionate toward the angry, spouting BS who expresses desires to boil all WS in oil and pluck out all of their body hairs one-by-one. It doesn't mean I'll be posting to these people, as I probably wouldn't be able to offer them anything helpful. But I should at least try to get a reading for them on my own comassion-o-meter. It will be a good exercise for me as I continue my personal recovery.

Thanks.

--SC

Mel helped me more than I can say when I first came here, and I am getting a little sick of seeing her attacked, especially when she is the biggest supporter of peoples rights to post anyway they want.

She cares a great deal for people and donates an incredible amount of time to helping others.

Why don't you all take the time to find out all the good she does do with her honesty, instead of attacking her for it.

Weaver & Mel,

I should have chosen my words much more carefully. Perhaps using only "compassion" and not "sympathy" or "empathy" when disucssing alcoholics.

But as you both so rightly point out... FEELING compassion for someone doesn't necessarily mean you treat them in a way that enables them. Apples and Oranges. Plus, I believe you can have compassion for the PERSON and not their DISEASE/ADDICTION.

And Mel... as for that line about WS feeling pain before they make the choice to cheat... I stand by it. It's true. I never said that made them a "victim" Quit taking things out of context and putting words in my mouth.

--SC

I've changed my mind about something. I've decided I DO want to adress a bit of the mudslinging that happened earlier in this thread afterall.

Mel wrote:


(bold emphasis mine)

This is a complete fabrication. A bold-faced lie that you made up about me out of thin air and stated as fact. And that you have repeated at least three times on this thread and one other.

Since you're so keen on honesty, Mel, I think you owe me an apology.

--SC

SC,

Thinking back, what helped you the most to get out of your fog and get back on board with your marriage? In other words what was it that made you change your ways?

I know what it was for me in the different times in my life when I was self-destructing and hurting a lot of other people on my way.

What was it for you?

Smartcookie,

Although it’s true that some destructive human behavior originates from pain, it can never be used as an excuse to behave that way...especially not if it leads to immense pain to others….and although their actions might originates from their own pain, the person must still take the responsibility and consequences for actions. One can feel sympathy and compassion for such a person’s unfortunate past, but sympathy and compassion for the person’s actions and implying that the person behaved that way because he/she is a “victim” of his/her past, is destructive and not helpful towards such a person at all.

For example it’s possible that murderers and violent people act out their anger this way because of pain which originates from their past (like heavy physical child abuse and growing up in a violent family and community), but this doesn’t excuse their behavior and they still need to pay the consequences…even if it means going to jail. I know if such a person with an unfortunate violent background and upbringing as a child murder one of my loved ones, I will certainly not feel sympathy and compassion for that person.

Not even poorness and disadvantaged background is an excuse IMO for people to steal and commit other crimes.

The same with destructive human behavior like adultery, substance abuse etc. which don’t fall in the category of “breaking the law”.

As you probably know, abuse and destructive behavior some children grow up with and therefore witness and experience in their own family, are often repeated in adulthood and carried over to the next generations if the cycle don't stop. For example:

Many children from alcoholic families often get alcoholics themselves…

Many people who are abused as children (verbally, emotionally, physically or sexually) often carry over the abuse to their own children or other loved ones… But it is not right and never an excuses to commit pain against another or behave in a destructive way.

I remember when I confronted my father’s brother a few years ago about the sexual incest he committed against me when I was still a young child (pre-school), he tried to “explained” his behavior by telling me that he was sexually abused as a child too by a family member and couldn’t control his sexual “urges” because of that and that I was the unfortunate victim. He asked my forgiveness and said he was very sorry and regretful for what he did to me…but I just thought his “explanation” for why he did what he did was WAY out of line. Actually it made me very angry at the time and although he was sorry, I felt that he tried to rationalize and justify his past behavior with his "explanation".

Suzet,

I agree with you. Aphelion asked me why I empathize with WS. I said, "b/c I understand their pain". Then MEDC suggested that WS cause their own pain, therefore don't deserve consideration for said pain. And so I expanded upon my answer.

I NEVER SAID NOR MEANT TO IMPLY that it was an excuse for anything. I do NOT believe it's an excuse.

My brother may very well have been in pain when he sexually abused me. My mother may have been in pain when she blamed me for it. That doesn't excuse their actions. But I even believe THEY are worthy of compassion.

--SC

Weaver, good question. I'll give it some thought and get back to you.

Hey cookie.

I see the thread has progressed right along. And you are changing your perception. Lemme see if what I wrote last night helps. And folks, this is about how I think, your own mileage may vary for the reasons of your own life experience and how you have absorbed your learning.




Don't be sorry. You made a valid point. And you made it well. What you missed was the right target.

A wayward spouse is NOT a victim of abuse, they are the abuser in most, but not all cases.

And the guidelines for dealing with an abuser are crystal clear and readily available on the web in a number of places. And in that context, you are clearly 100 percent correct to stay away from emotional words and deal strictly with the facts. And for those who want to go read, the reasons are presented in an almost uniform way on every site that deals with this issue and the reasons are detailed exactly with no room for quibble, period.

After the facts can be determined as accurately, completely and unemotionally as possible, abuser directed counseling then proceeds in a different direction and the first labels are introduced with full explanation of what they did and the consequences. It goes from there. And the process can be somewhat harsh.

But, you listed the guidelines for dealing with the victim, which in the case of affairs, is the betrayed, NOT the wayward. But you were right in a way.

How did you miss that? How did I miss that initially?

The guidelines for dealing with the abused does recommend that labels not be used, at least not initially and the reasons for this is "A lot of battering behavior is geared towards making the victim feel responsible for the violence in their lives, so most survivors will have a heightened sensitivity to anything that might confirm feelings of self-blame. The batterer is the one who is responsible for the violence."

Affairs have some of the same dynamics as domestic violence. There are also some differences. For one thing, there is another abuser involved and multiple victims of the abuse; affairs are a form of abuse by definition so no argument there so far. If it is useful to detail the harmful effects of an affair to an wayward spouse, it is also useful to detail that the other person is also engaged in less than honorable activities. This is where affairs are different, yet the same. One of the first steps is to start driving a wedge between one wayward and the other. That will happen anyway, so no harm in helping the process, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In my limited experience, ever single wayward I have talked to or read about, has at one point or another confessed that they did not exactly trust the other wayward. The reason for that is obvious. Yet at the same time, you hear all this soul mate garbage and they defend the other wayward; yet there is doubt. I would be interested if anyone else has a take on what percentage of waywards have that doubt in their back of their minds. MrsW, care to comment?

The bottom line for me is to treat the wayward like an abuser. I try not to call them names. If I label the other person for the purpose of driving a wedge, I explain why the label is earned. There is a whole lot more to it and I am not going to write a book I am not qualified to write, so I will stop. And besides, I have zero professional credentials

I will comment that there are a ton of men who are victims of domestic violence. I mean as in millions. Just a comment. And they don't have domestic violence shelters for those males.


If you have sympathy for the victims of abuse, you should have sympathy for the victims of infidelity or sympathy for the victims of a train wreck. You want me to list the similarities up to and including that most abusers believe the abused brought it on themselves, just like waywards think in garden variety affairs?


Yea it hurts. Unless the wayward is a complete critter or partly a critter, it hurts like crazy. It hurts because their fantasy didn't end well.

It sometimes hurts because when (if) they wake up and smell the roses, they get the idea that they might have done something wrong for all the wrong reasons and guilt sets in that they hurt people who trusted them. Yes, and there ARE conditions where a wayward feels abused BEFORE they run into the illusion of safety in an affair. I can see that and have sympathy for them; not the direction they ran, the precursor events. For example, it is sometimes common for those who are victims of domestic abuse to seek another male or female as a refuge. In that case, where the heck do you apply the label "Abuser?"

But mostly we deal with common, garden variety affairs instead of the more complex ones. And with those, the abuser is the wayward and the victim is the abused. I do agree with you that a wayward may be in a state of emotional turmoil prior to the affair. I agree that the state of the marriage may be what is producing that state of turmoil and yes that state could be called pain. No argument with you on that. From that point, we diverge. The way to handle pain is to do something about it that doesn't cause more pain. Instead, waywards and abusers do stuff that cause more pain both to themselves and others. This is called self destructive. Do you feel sorry for an abuser who is in pain and takes it out on his/her spouse by beating on them? And by the way, abuse is more than just physical violence. It can also be emotional abuse, which can be as damaging as beating the whey out of someone.

Negative consequences are designed to cause pain, it is nature's way of saying: "Don't do that again, you idiot." Unfortunately it takes some people more than once to get it and some people never do. Wanna see some real pain? Go over to the wayward site and read for a while. And they brung it on themselves.

When passing out sympathy, please remember that most affairs hurt more than just the perp, er, the wayward. So we have a person making a choice to do something that is hurtful not only for themselves, but also all those other parties in their life, like spouses, kids, the OP spouse and kids, family, friends, etc.

A wayward makes a choice.

They follow their emotions around instead of their moral compass sorta like retrograde teenagers. So with me, frankly, how much sympathy do they deserve for the pain they experience because of the choices they made? How much sympathy do they deserve for choosing to follow the path they elected to escape whatever pain they have in their life because of prior choices and/or an inability or disinclination to seek help before they take the path of an affair?

Give them help? Sure! Give them sympathy, not much, at least from this guy.

From my own point of view, I am more or less respectful toward waywards. Why not? It doesn't cost me anything and they are more likely to listen to me than if I took the position of beating on them until they felt better about themselves. This doesn't mean I respect what they have done or whatever phony baloney reasons they cooked up as justification. It just means that I view them as someone who did something wrong and unless they are an entitlement critter, there is an opportunity for them to rejoin the human race and make up for the damage they have done, if they want to make that choice possible.

And I should point out that forgiving yourself for the right reasons as a wayward is a far different cry from having sympathy for yourself for the wrong reasons, given the circumstances. Forgiving yourself is a reality check and part of the healing process. Having sympathy for yourself because you choose not to exercise control over your emotions and thus did something hurtful for not only yourself, but others, is kinda, well, immature. It sure isn't grown up stuff.

Abusers and DUI types feel sorry for themselves when they get to meet bubba up close and personal in a grey bar hotel. And they are full of excuses. Excuses enable. Forgive yourself as you get your head on straight, sure! Have sympathy for yourself; don't even go there, that is more just following your emotions instead of learning to deal with them. Everyone has affair emotions and some of us even have good reason besides Harley's definition. But not everyone so engages. Some people deal with their affair emotions like grown ups. Others do not.

Anyway, I can be respectful towards waywards. They are, after all, human beings. Yes they are engaged in hurtful behavior and some folks think that calling them names will help. I don't, but that is just me. On the other hand, you can pin a label and make it stick if you explain and that, for me, is what I try to do. In my opinion, a label without explanation of how that label is earned raises defenses and is counterproductive. I am interested in outcomes and I try, not always successfully, to refrain from name calling without fully explained justification.

But sympathy? Not even when they want to make it up to someone they have abused. Respect, sure. Sympathy, no.

See, my poor ex-neighbor is dead now, committed suicide, so I guess his WW can't make it up to him no matter how hard she would try. And that case is prolly why I say that domestic violence and affairs are right up there at the same level, plus my own up close and personal experience.

They put abusers and DUI types in jail. They don't do that anymore with waywards or stone them. Maybe they don't make enough jails. The world changes.

Thank you for starting this thread. I learned something, maybe more than just something. I hope others here have as well.

Larry

I am somewhat on your side on this. Mel has also helped me when she has been in help mode and I have seen her do it with others. She is not always in help mode, imho. And therein lies the rub. She has experience and wisdom when she cares to share it but she sometimes lashes out without sharing. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel is, like all of us, a human being with good days and not so good days. I am not a charter member of her fan club (recent thread) but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what she does when she chooses to do it.

And if the rest of that post is something that Mel wrote, I now have a better understanding where she was and where she is as a human being. Frankly, as a betrayed spouse I would have had a lot to say about that post from my point of view that she may or may not have been receptive to hearing at the time.

But there is no point at this late date.

Larry

Hmmmm,
since the OP is actually IRRELEVENT in the grand scheme of things ......what does it matter if I talk rudely about them, indifferent about them or just NOT at all??

Sure I bashed on the CLB for awhile ......but once I got it out of my system I didn't WANT to even Think about him anymore ......let alone Mention him OR bring him up.

Much in the same way as the A itself.
Truly,
I thought and talked about it for a long long Looong time.
Then eventually EVEN [color:"blue"] I [/color] got Weary of it all .........................................so I Stopped.

(Although that's not to say I still couldn't have some strong opinions IF the subject was to be brought up ....its just they would have to be dug up, as I am no longer in a constant slow boil over it all).
Thank goodness.

As to a WS defending the OP ......well, that just shows where their Head and heart still are.
Once they are past doing that action .....its a Real Sign that they are actually contrite and moving towards the relationship in a real way (not just speaking air).

Unfortunately,
Till then all your dealing with is (at the least) a mentally active WS.
And with one of those,
I see no problem in taking their fantasy down a peg or 3.

100% agree TopRope. So why do something (bash the OP) that might cause the WS to defend the OP even more... driving them even further into waywardville?

Do you really take the WS's fantasy down a peg or two? Or do you just cause them to go into defense mode so they can't hear anything else you're saying?

--SC

(Larry, thanks for that thoughtful post. I'm working on a reply)

SC... your premise that bad behaviors originate from pain in most cases is far off the mark. I think that greed, lack of integrity, lack of morals, entitlement and general meanness about covers why people in most cases act out. Now, show me a person in pain that commits a crime.... like a BS that walks in on his/her spouse getting f-ed... and I will have compassion. Show me a person that finally has enough of physical abuse and sticks a staek knife in her spouse... and I would and HAVE put the cuffs on a little looser while telling her please be quiet and talk to your lawyer before saying anything to me.... these types of people are due compassion. A woman that shoves a mans penis in her mouth over and over again... or a man that decides it is okay to put his tongue or penis in someone else deserves nothing more than fingers of shame pointed directly at their horrible actions and nature. See, they are horrible people until they stop being horrible. IMHO, every WS out there should lose all marital rights and children until they PROVE they are different.
On this web site there is this "there but by the Grace of God go I" menatlity in regards to infidelity. I say bull crappy about that. There are some people that are driven by character and integrity and if you are... you could never become a WS. NEVER. Now WS can develop these traits and become good people... but while they are wayward and treating those around them as punching bags... they really are nothing more than evil personified. But the beauty is that they can change.....and one thing I see is that many here have done a great job with this. They have devoted themselves to being better spouses and better PEOPLE... for when they were wayward, they were lousy mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, daughters and sons...worthy of every ounce of scorn that comes their way. When they show.... and only when they show a willingness to change are they due a helping hand in pulling them out of the scum that they have been swimming in.

MEDC

Sadly SC,
That's why its routinely referred to as a Fantasy.

Hence,
some reality needs to be injected to interrupt the continuing mental LOOP the WS is all caught up in.

Sure some of it is a carrot ...hence the plan A on yourself (the BS).

But I have NO problem with using a crow bar at times too........hence telling the TRUTH about the character and Actions of the OP.
As they say, many times the truth Hurts. Sad but true.

If that causes some shame (or other) reaction from the WS,
as they are guilty of the same and don't like the mirror .....well, that's just part of my huge fan to help blow away the fog.

Interesting how the WS loves the mirror of the OP ......up and until someone turns on the light.

Oh well,
we all should have batteries to burn when it comes to that.

If your a thief .....and I confront and tell you its wrong & Point out the flaws in your partner that's assisting you .......how is that contributing to your continuing to do it??

You did it for the thrill, the rush , your lazy.....whatever.

I'm simply pointing out the negatives that you've apparently decided to ignore.

What you do with it is up to you .....and Proves (by Your actions) whether or not your reforming yourself.

Should you get defensive and rush out to steal more (or even try to convince me of the great qualities your partner in crime possesses).....had little to do with what I've said, and everything to do with YOU and your issues.

Not my albatross if someone else decides to engage in wrong type thinking.

By the way:
[Not accusing anyone OR you of being a thief ....simply using it as an object of comparison .....and NO - no comparison is 100% applicable, so Please no attacks on the apples and oranges stuff].
I ain't as deep thinkin as some here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Larry,

I'm just glad people have such diverse personalities. It keeps me interested, and often amused. And who the heck knows what words will get through to someone. And the people who are posting to others are often helping themselves most of all.

Boy I belted out some hateful posts in my day. And each one was a lesson to me, as I am sure I hurt myself more than the person I attacked.

Since we are talking about posting styles, the rudest of all, IMO, are the ones who ignore someones post completely. I can think of nothing more hurtful than being ignored.

Someone starts a thread and then ignores half the posters who respond to them.

Rude!

Or never says "thank you for your post", "thank you for your thoughts", etc.

I mean after all, a wink is as good as a nod. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Larry,

I read all of what you wrote about the guidelines for dealing with abuse victims vs. perpetrators and think I undersand most of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

But as I've already said a number of times... IMO... the victim/victimizer dynamic is somewhat irrelevant to my very narrow point about the likely reaction of a WS to OP bashing. No matter who the victim/victimizer is in the equation... if you have feelings for someone and someone else comes along and bashes them... your knee-jerk reaction will be to defend them. And the more you defend them, the more you believe your own words.

(and please don't lecute me about saying that the WS has "feelings" for the OP. Yes, those feelings are destructive, wrong, based on lies and fantacy and brain chemicals, selfish, etc, etc, etc. But they are often, also, very powerful. Like a fog-inducing drug, right?)





I don't understand your point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I stated that I DO have sympathy for BSs. I was thinking that it wasn't possible for me to have Empathy (only sympathy). But I was mixing up the words and wrongly defining them. I was thinking that you could have sympathy for anyone, but only empathy for those with whom you've had similar experiences.

With my handy-dandy dictionary next to me, I now see that all that to have empathy is to "identify with and understand another's situation, feelings and motives." And sympathy is "a relationship or affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other."

So Aphelion was correct to use the word empathy... and I just made it much more complicated and confusing that it needed to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway... if you still question whether I give a hoot about BSs... I'll refer you back to the post I wrote to Aphelion earlier this morning.

As for why I have compassion for WS -- even active ones -- I think I addressed that as well (although I'm starting to lose track). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Mkeverday...


Most folks here subscribe to Harley's principals. He has the thousands and thousands of success stories to back up what he teaches. He teaches that the seeds of betrayal are within all of us; affairs are a failure to protect our weaknesses. I am a BS and I understand your pain, something that leaps out of your post. Harley takes a somewhat objective view which neither you nor I am totally capable of doing.

This is why this forum has somewhat the attitude you describe, but not entirely. After all, you are free to post your feelings exactly as you have done. The original point of this thread was methods; how to help someone who is abused (betrayed) or an abuser (betrayer), which I can respect (methods) even when I disagree with a particular one (style of method).

While reading your post, a thought came in my mind. How much of Harley have you read? Have you read Surviving? How much work have you done to heal yourself using what he teaches? See, the point of this forum is to help people heal. How is it working for you?

Larry

I don't even know what to make of this. Either you and I hang-out in totally different crowds... or... I just don't know. I personally, off the top of my head, can't think of a single person who's just plain mean, greedy, and without morals or integrity etc. I know some people who seem that way on the surface... but most of them have a lot more than that going on below the surface, IME.

If you really don't believe that most destructive behavior comes out of pain... we don't even have a starting point for a discussion. It's like trying to convince someone who truly does NOT believe that life begins at conception that abortion is wrong. Without a common starting point -- you'll never see eye to eye. never. And you can't even really have a productive discussion about it.

Have you ever considered what makes a person into a bully? Hint: in most cases it's not a kid from a home where kindness, respect, love, listening, caring, and compassion are the norm. Calling a bully "just plain mean" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what makes most of them tick.

--SC

Larry... yes, I have read a lot and really don't feel like I am in pain at this point. My IC agrees with me(and he sees me 2 x a month for issues unrelated to infidleity). And Larry, I will disagree with the good doctor that makes his living off of infidelity on the point that the seeds are in everyone regarding infidelity. I also believe I can be objective about my own life... and I know quite a few others that I know feel the same way(even though they agree with the majority of his ideas). To me there is a character flaw that allows these things to happen... and for the record, my post was about more than infidelity.

And it has worked just fine for me Larry... thanks for asking.

MEDC

cookie. .. .


Yea, I know you do. I was rambling and thinking out loud.


You were discussing methods. I did understand that and I think I tried to back up what you were trying to do. And yes, empathy is the right word, not sympathy. Harley has empathy for all and that is a good thing. I learned to have empathy for my wife, finally, by reading Harley. Before that, there was none, just a feeling that she had lost her mind. I am glad I found this site which led to me finding understanding to the extent I have it.

Larry

Weaver...

I'm still thinking... thinking... thinking....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SC... I would venture a guess that I have had significantly more interactions with evil than most 10 people combined. I have seen man's inhumanity to men on full display and it is not usually due to pain in one's life...I worked as a cop...I have an advanced degree in sociology(a lot of which is hogwash btw)...I work with groups dealing with sexual assault...I have looked evil in the eye... and have seen senseless slaughter over nothing more than a pair of sneakers.

So, you are right... we do not have a starting point.

Oh I know SC. Take your time, no worries. I wasn't talking about this thread, just an observation of what my opinion of hurtful is.

cookie.

Yea, you hang out in great places There ARE other places.


There ARE some just plain old evil mean people out there. I am reminded of an old Richard Pryor skit. He had just made Stir Crazy with Gene Wilder. His skit was detailing how he felt about whitey putting brothers in jail. He went on and on, then talked about meeting some of those same brothers. He mentioned one of them:

"Why you in here brother?"

"I killed five people."

"Why you do that?"

"Cause they was there."

Richard Pryor looked around the audience and then said in the whimsical, almost embarrassed way he could use at times, "Don't let them out!"

Cops call people without any redeeming qualities at all, "Critters." That about sums it up. And it doesn't really matter much how they got to be the Hannibal Lectors of the world, they are what they are. Some folks are just plain mean in certain ways, like the, uh, person I know who has declared that cats are for one purpose in this world, only; as target practice. He meant it and did it.

Larry

ah... but how about the animals that KNOW life begins at conception and still choose abortion.... and I believe with all of my heart that this is pure evil. And frankly, since you brought it up.... IMO, this is the case in most abortions... that people KNOW exactly what they are doing and yet still choose the path of evil.... kind of speaks to my point.

LMAO.... Larry... are you from Philly???? LOL!!!!!!!

mkeveryday. . .


Been using that one a LOT! I love it. Simple and to the point. Thank you. I had forgotten where I stole it fair and square.

You see character as black and white, good or evil in affairs. Ok, that works for you. I have a different mind set that works for me.

Larry

No, but I read WEB Griffin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

That would explain it! Very funny to see that expression on this forum! You made my day.

MEDC

mkeverday...


Yea, and there there is the feel good at any cost school of counseling. Kinda like lawyers. Everyone is a victim if they pay well.

Some of the concepts of sociology are so full of it, that some shrinks got together and decided to start up something called "Cultural Psychology." Now those same shrinks lost the academic wars that followed, but their premise was valid, IMHO.

My Grandfather was a tough cop from the old days. His idea of how to handle critters made for fewer court dates and safer streets. Social conditioning these days is what it is because of the excesses of the past, real in some cases or imagined in many others.

Larry

WEB Griffin helped shape my view of men and me in the role of a man. I guess you have read his Philly police series, right? I ask for a reason.

Larry

I have not. I have known about it for a while... but sometimes it is a little too hard for me to read things like that as it makes me miss my "calling" a bit too much. Lived it... haven't read it... I will say "yet" for now.

sc~ have you ever considered that under the BSs anger is pure, fierce, intense pain? It is a self-defense mechanism to deal with pain by expressing it in anger ~ and it is not something that can normally, and definitely not easily, be controlled.

Under anger there is fear...so, what are we afraid of? Being hurt again? The pain never going away? Imagining that we will have to forever live a life of doubt in the one person who we thought we could always implicitly trust? That maybe our WS/FWS loves OP more than us? That maybe we really are worthless? Because, afterall, the actions of our WS already told us that.

The list goes on and on...you cannot imagine the fears and hurt that the BS has, all of which at some point or other, comes out as anger.

And do you know what helps the most to stifle that raging anger? It is true compassion, sympathy and empathy, most importantly from the WS/FWS. It is the WS fighting for the BS ~ it is the WS saying "I will not leave you ~ you can be angry and I will fight even harder for you, because I love you and I want you. Even if you are angry.".

It might even be a subconscious "testing of the waters" kind of a thing ~ as in, will you still love me, even if I am angry at you, at what you have done to me? Because I still love you, even though you have betrayed me and hurt me in the worst way possible.

Not sure if this helps you to understand any better what the BS is going through when all you see on the outside is anger. *shrug*

And it would be equally ridiculous to equate ADULTERY with straightforward speech on an internet forum. That reflects your shocking ignorance about adultery, which we already knew. But then, that has never stopped you before from offering your "opinion."

But what is even more ludicrous is for you to lecture anyone on "being rude." A troll who routinely engages in personal attacks and name calling, with a treasure trove of EDITED BY THE MODS posts to prove it, is hardly in a position to call ANYONE "rude" or a "bully." This is your MO. You come here only to attack veteran board members, Marriage Builders principles, and confuse newcomers with your own silly personal philosophies about marriage. Rude, indeed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I have no idea what this means because I don't speak the language of psychobabble so I don't know what it means to "feel compassion for the person but NOT the disease." huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Whyever would you feel "compassion" for an addict? That is not what they need. Unless you define "compassion" as a kick in the [censored], a week in jail, etc. That is "compassion."



You can only speak for yourself, sc. But yes, you continually try to portray waywards as "victims." You even equated them to "abuse victims" earlier. And that is why you are continually carrying water for foghorns. I am sure child molesters, drunks, rapists all feel some "pain" too. Don't we all? But we don't all commit adultery. It is no excuse to harm others. I would wager that the victims feel MUCH MORE PAIN.

Yes, I do apologize for getting my facts wrong. But you have not been honest about your past and have been withholding information that does much to explain your wayward mentality and why you only come here to carry water for waywards. Care to be honest about that?

What it does often do is burst their fantasy. When they realize that their fantasy looks pretty putrid in the eyes of others, they are forced to see it through the eyes of others. The WORST thing that can one can do is mince words or ENABLE their fantasy. Rather, it is best to call a spade a spade, a CAD a CAD.

AMEN Mel...

Larry, I do appreciate your feedback. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Since we are in critique mode, let me share my view of your posts. I think they are often very helpful, but I would suggest becoming more familiar with Marriage Builders principles. You had a very strong overreaction to some of his principles/views that you weren't familiar with and it caused an unneccessary distraction on someone's thread. For example, telling children and the viewpoint that the BS must be protected from the WS. Granted, some of those principles are not well published, but I think it is always better to ASK instead of reacting and lashing out. Just IMO.

As far as communication styles, the other day you mentioned that you think folks should do a better job of explaining their points. I thought about this alot because I am KNOWN for fully explaining my points and believe I do a good job of that. Not always, of course, but usually.

However, I think that we communicate with others in the way that we want to be communicated WITH. You, as an individual, need very exhaustive explanation of every point. That would never work with me. I communicate in short, concise sentences that convey my point and drill right down to the bottom line. That is how I best understand something. I rarely ever read your posts because of this. You express in 10 paragraphs what I would express in 10 well thought out, less wordy sentences. Not that there is anything WRONG with that, just that when you ask others to more fully explain things, I think you expect a standard of communication that suits your personality and might not work for others. For me, I am pretty well known for explaining my points, but doing so very concisely with the LEAST amount of words.

It really did get me thinking though, and I think that the real issue is one of different communication styles. Which is a very good thing, of course. Some will respond best to your style and others will respond best to mine. That is the beauty of a diverse forum.

Sure. The reason I haven't posted about that is that I have a very close friend and confidant who sometimes reads here. We live a good distance apart, and mostly communicate via email. I wanted to share this information with her in person and haven't been able to do so yet. I wanted to tell her myself, face to face, not have her read about it here. Now I'll be forced to tell her via email. Not a huge deal, but I'm not happy about it.

Yes, you got your facts wrong. You had a vague recollection of "something"... and without checking... you accused me of the worst case senario. That's not an "oops, I got my facts wrong". It's negligent.

Furthermore... renewed contact with an OP is the OPPOSITE of a voluntary confession of a 10-yr-old ONS.

Renewed contact is 10 steps backward. Fessing up to a past misdeed is a significant step forward -- not at all a sign of "wayward thinking"... but a sign of further recovery.

I also believe that “feeling compassion for a person but not the disease” doesn’t make literal sense. But I felt like I understood what SmartCookie was trying to say. Melody Lane’s objection to feeling compassion for an addict struck me. What is wrong with feeling compassion for an addict, as long as I don’t react to that compassion in a way that enables the addiction?

So then I started thinking that maybe we are working under different understandings of what “compassion” is. So I looked in my American Heritage Dictionary to find that compassion is


Huh. In mind head, I define compassion simply with the first part of that: the deep feeling of sharing the suffering of another. I don’t really assume with that any inclination to give aid or support or to show mercy. But if Melody Lane understands compassion to include both halves of that definition, I understand her response much better.

So I don’t know how to express my attitude toward the addict. I do not want to enable the addict in any way. But I do at times perceive an underlying pain that led the person to addiction. I don’t consider that pain an excuse or justification. But I don’t want to lose sight of it, either. I guess to me it’s important to acknowledge a person’s essential humanity. Or, I don’t know. That sounded so flaky. I don’t know how to say what I mean.

Curious,

I think you express yourself much better than you give yourself credit for. Relax.

I don't know a lot about the best way to deal with addicts... except that some of it may be counterintuitive... and that's why 12 step programs such as Al-Anon are so important to help people learn the best techniques. (I've been trying to check-out an Al-anon meeting in my area for about a month now, but my work/mom schedule keeps getting in the way).

I'm guessing the reason the definition includes that last half is b/c true compassion requires at least an inclination to take action on the feeling. As others have pointed out, compassionate action doesn't mean coddling. Maybe it might be better defined as doing whatever's "best" for the person, even if they don't like it at the time.

Like.. insisting my kids eat their vegetables at dinnertime, rather than letting them make a meal for themselves out of their Easter baskets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> OTOH, I don't stand over them with a baseball bat and bash their knuckles if they refuse to eat their veggies, either.

--SC

Exactly. It is the latter definition of "compassion" that is effective for an addict. Real, effective support has nothing to do with saying some nice words or showing some misplaced sympathy, but in helping them do the things necessary to stay sober, drive them to meetings, sponsor them, teach them how to interview for jobs, kick their butt when they need it, etc. That is the SENSE of compassion that I mean.

And I suppose you could FEEL some compassion [FEELINGS] for an addict. I can't imagine why, but it is certainly not harmful unless you use those feelings to ENABLE them.


They are in horrible self induced PAIN like you could not imagine. Most often an addict uses drugs because they choose not to face life. It is their escape. It was so much easier for me to drink myself into oblivion than face life every day like the rest of mankind. I was always looking for an easier, softer way to escape life.

Smartcookie, this really is a wildly 'romantic' claim. It simply isn't true, in most cases.

One of the things that this very forum has taught me, is that a very large proportion of WSs are in no pain at all before making the decision to cheat.

What they ARE in, often, is a state of boredom, or frustration, or some other kind of discomfort that they have never acquired the tools to deal with competently. You wouldn't call it 'pain', unless you were really fathoms deep in self-pity or desperately hoping to play on the synpathies of a betrayed spouse.

In the list of 'Things I Can Do To Feel Good About Myself ', things like gratification, distraction and seeking admiration come way near the top, and 'holding onto principles' is low, low down...possibly not there at all.

And there are many WSs who cheat simply because they can, because it's a break from the strains of adult responsibility, because they're immature enough to think it will affect nobody as long as 'nobody' finds out.

People often do self-destructive things because those things are fun, up-front. That's why we wake up with hangovers...we thought we might get away with it, in the heat of the party.

The people who are genuinely, suicidely miserable, and who self-detruct via an affair seem like a small minority to me. How many WSs have you read about here, who have attempted suicide? And how many BSs? It's about 0:20, by my reckoning. The BS is in real pain. It's the difference between a gunshot wound to the stomach, and a bad cramp.

TA

I don't refer to that act as a sign of your wayward thinking. I applaud you for coming clean and agree it is a sign of recovery.

However, what I see as a wayward mindset are your posts on this forum, which are almost always targeted towards defending a wayward mentality, ie: trying to stop others from calling a CAD a CAD, [misdefining it as "bashing"] attempting to convince BS's to interpret fog as reality, etc. Rather than helping others achieve RECOVERY, you seem to be very focused on nitpicking Marriage Builders and those who make things uncomfortable for waywards. That is a sign of a wayward mentality.

TA,

Have you ever considered the possibility that the reason there aren't more WS here describing the pain they were in before the affair... is that even the most thoughtful posters such as youself are so quick to dismiss it as a "cramp". That does indeed seem to be the prevailing attitudehere. And there are other safe places for people to express themselves besides MB.

I'll readily concede that I shouldn't have made that statement as an "absolute". It's certainly not. And I am more than willing to acknowledge that there are also cheaters who fit more into the category you describe. But who's to say which groups represents the majority?

Why must every post about the pain or struggles of a WS be countered with... "that's NOTHING compared to what the BS goes through." Fine. But one could argue that what a BS goes through doesn't compare to what a 12-year-old sex slave endures. So, since there are actually worse fates in the world, do we tell BSs to just get over themselves? Of course not. It's not a contest. Pain is pain.

I don't even know why I'm continuing this discussion. We aren't going to change each others' minds, are we?

--SC

SC, this place is not "safe" for bullcrap, that is certain. Pandering inappropriate pity for WS' is exactly that. Let me get out my violin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Have you considered that many WS', when they become HONEST, admit their affair was nothing more than self will run riot?

Encouraging pity parties for a WS accomplishes nothing, much less recovery. Feeling pity for themselves is nothing more than a diversion from taking a good look at what personal shortcomings led to such a heinious act. It is an impediment to recovery. If you take a look at the TRULY RECOVERED WS's around here, you don't see them engaging in pity parties about their poor lot in life. Lets please stop with the pity pandering.

Oh yes you did. You said:


SC

SC, I was referring to your CONFESSION in my first quote. That act is not a sign of wayward thinking. Concealing an affair for 10 years IS.

Mel,
OMG! If anyone here is running for office, you really ought to beg Mel to be your campaign manager. 'cause she's one heluva spin doctor!!
--SC

Good night all.

huh? I thought that was very clear, I guess not.

weaver, thanks honey. You are alright for a silly yankee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

stoopid error

wrong person !!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Pep, I think you may be mixing me up with another TA...I'm very much a BS, never been on the wayward side!

SC... you really are just a bit full of yourself aren't you. Time to remove your head from your nether regions dear. It sounds like you are a person that has had her head stuck in academia for too long... you have good theory but seem to lack a lot in common sense.

and I think with some of your replies to ML that you should consider changing your name here to cookieduh.

But Cookie - why is it you didn't confess your ONS of 10 years before last year? Really that is such a wayward mindset continuing for TEN years. What other surprises have you got for your poor BH?

I think actually most if not ALL BS's vent to/at WS about OP and the WS does defend them at least initially. I don't know if it causes any harm or drives them closer together. I think it's such a MINOR issue I don't even know why it's under discussion.

Certainly it made no difference to our recovery.

sc,

Why did you write this?

“Silly me. At first I actually thought you were asking me questions b/c you wanted to hear the answers. Sometimes I can be so naive.”

No need to be passive aggressive. Say what you mean. I can take it. I am not, never have been nor ever will be a WS.

I do want answers, sc. As I wrote, carrot and stick – each has its turn in the method. But I am not always clear in the heat of the moment which is up next. Well, I should say, was not sure. I no longer need either. I am detached.

What I read in a great many of these posts is even when the BS is hurting so bad, they still have to stuff it and take it on the chin no matter what WS says or does. Otherwise what the WS thinks, says or does is BS driven somehow.

Some seem to have the opinion BS should not even vent here, to anonymous strangers, lest they be the cause of more WSeddness in the world.

In my sitch FWW did not want to hear bad things about OM. Yet he was the walking definition of a cad and a scoundrel. (Candrel? Scad? ) Multiple A’s even during the VLTA with FWW. Current W one of his OW’s on his first wife. Left his W and children high and dry. Affairs when both W’s were pregnant. Entitlement is his middle name. Still acting the same too.

Yet I held off bashing him in front of FWW for kinda, sorta of the reason you mention. It would make her defensive. So I crept up on it, actually. As the fog lifted I pushed on her perception of OM. Harder and harder. With facts and invective both. Eventually she started to see his true colors. And yes, it made her feel worse. Good! By then it was final exam time. I had papers ready to file.

My point is I don’t think she ever would have seen him for what he is unless I pointed it out to her. And pointed it out in vivid color. Her perceptions would have faded off into a la la land of memories and what might have beens with a star-crossed soulmate love story that was never given a chance by a cruel world.

Honestly, I did not want to stay, and would not have stayed, married to her if she kept any fond memories of dirtbag OM whatsoever. So I went after what I wanted in the best way I knew how. This included bashing OM because he deserved bashing. Period.

And it felt good too. So what? Do I just take her feelings for a brute like him while laying down?

sc, when does the BS get to have his say? His true say?

It sounds like never from some of this. Or only at some mutually agreed upon point (yeah, like WS will ever agree), and even then it still has to be a politically correct say. Screw that. Yes, timing is everything. But the time better get here for the BS sooner than later. Otherwise the WS is not worth recovery in the first place.


Oh, what about this question: “It occurs to me exposure to OP's friends and family also falls entirely within your recommendation to not to upset WS by appearing mean to OP.”

This is a serous question too. Exposure is treating the OP pretty darn bad. Makes the WS want to defend OP. (It sure did with my FWW.) I wonder if by your logic BS should not expose either.

Alph - SC has problems with exposure, bad words about OP, radical honesty etc. She is very much an enabler of WS's and no wonder she still has the WS mindset.

Right BK, that's is what I was thinking...Here's what really baffles me though, and I very sincerely would like to understand...When you had the Dday in the fall of 2005 SC, why didn't you just come clean with it ALL??? Why would you wait another YEAR to tell your husband about the ONS? Why didn't you rip the bandaid off all at once?

Does your husband still question whether or not something else is going to surface? I would imagine that he does...How is your husband doing with all of this SC?

Mrs. W

Dear Smartcookie, I know you didn’t imply or believe it was an excuse for anything…and I’m SO sorry if I gave you the impression in my post to you yesterday that I thought that way about you. It was not the case at all. I was only giving my POV about it the topic in GENERAL and because I KNOW there are many people out there who will use their own pain which originates from an unfortunate childhood and/or traumatic/painful experiences from their past as an excuse, rationalization or justification for destructive human behavior towards themselves and others.

Smartcookie, I also believe ANY person (now matter how big a crime or sin they’ve committed) are worthy of compassion (and other things like forgiveness etc.) IF they are willing to change, repent and take full responsibility for their actions. But if a person is NOT willing to do those things, it’s a totally different story… Not even God forgive a person if they don’t repent and seek His forgiveness... Let me tell you this, if my father and his brother had never repented and seeked my forgiveness about the sexual abuse they’ve committed against me, then I don’t know if I could have EVER eventually forgave them and develop compassion for them… I doubt I would… I tried that for YEARS and could never reach that point…untill I confronted them a few years ago and told them EXACTLY what their actions did to me…and after they've shown regret and seeked my forgiveness.

I don’t know Smartcookie…maybe you are a much better and forgiving person than me…and maybe I’m wrong…I don’t know…but I think if I was in YOUR shoes…and if my brother and mother have NEVER repented and at least apologized to me…I don’t know if I would have ever been able to feel compassion for them. I can somewhat understand (in a twisted way) that what your mother said to you was out of pain, but I can’t comprehend that a person can do something like SEXUAL ABUSE TO AN INNOCENT CHILD out of pain…I don’t believe that for one minute…just as I can’t believe a person can commit CRIMES like rape etc. to another human being out of pain.

Although I understand (through personal experience) how people can get involved in actions like infidelity, substance abuse etc. unintentionally and not make a conscious decisions from the start to cheat/get addicted to a person or substances (think about the frog in the water analogy and thread “15 steps of unfaithfulness” where it is explained how people can get involved into adultery one tiny step at a time where the conscience is gradually seared), this is not the case with CRIMES like sexual child abuse, rape, murder etc. AT ALL. Those crimes are committed with a CLEAR intent from the start and can NEVER happen unintentionally IMO. MEDC gave some examples of cases where people sometimes commit crimes like abuse or murder because of exceptional personal curcumstances, so I just want to mention that I'm not talking about such exceptions and circumstances, but cases where people commit crimes towards pure innocent victims.

And although I believe that some people might be in pain before they cheat and that some of their actions might therefore originate from pain (on some level this was the case with me too due to my unresolved childhood issues at the time), I don’t believe this is always the case. Here I can agree with Melody and MEDC that sometimes people just cheat because they are plainly immoral, selfish, without integrity and have NO consideration for what their choices and actions will do to others (or even themselves). Long ago I’ve posted the following and I still believe it to be true:


Hopes this post explain my POV a little better!

Take care Smartcookie.

Changing a mindset held for years is a process, and I believe sc is in the process of changing hers.

On having empathy for the WS/OP:

Why would one want to empathise with a WS/OP? How could that possibly be productive or helpful? I don't want to understand what makes someone make stupid, hurtful, shortsighted choices.

I want to understand what makes people who are succesful in their lives, succesful.

"Seek to understand that which you would become"

If you were going to build a boat, you would study what makes things float, not what makes things sink.

That's the reason I have never been to boards like gloryb. I can't see any good coming from learning to understand those people.

SC, I once had compassion and empathy for a coworker who was stalking me in Reno, and it almost got me killed. Any person who was thinking correctly would have called the cops and put a stop to it immediately. Not me. I felt sorry for him. It was stupid and childish thinking on my part.

Do you see the correlation, sc? Do you see that you cannot identify with people making stupid choices? You have to call it like it is.

And the kindest, smartest thing that anyone could ever do for someone making bad choices is to be brutely honest with them. It will eventually start to weaken their fogged out, wrong thinking. Even if they leave, you better believe that they will be taking some of the truth they have read from the people posting to them, with them.

Isn't that what you would want for them? Isn't that the kindest, most compassionate thing to do?

Hiya Suzet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Great explanation. Over and over on here, I see people who confuse reason with excuse. Those are two English words with multiple definitions. Because someone has a reason (real, imagined real or made up as a lie), doesn't mean they have an excuse or are excused from responsibility. Yet pointing out a reason can often result in near hate mail around here depending on who does it, or at least confusion.

"The dog ate my homework," is a reason, not an excuse. It may be a lie, self delusion or real, it is still a reason but never an excuse for not turning in homework.


I want to quibble with you on that just a bit, sorry.

Suzet, people DO make tiny decisions along the path of addiction or an affair. Yet this is also where so many people who think in black and white terms get it wrong. Those addicted persons may not have INTENDED to go where they ended up, yet the black/white crowd thinks they did.

If you fully develop Harley's simple concept, you got it; Affairs are a failure to protect one's weaknesses.

Everyone is at a party and someone offers a hit. The guy with the great eyes uses them your way. There are cookies on the fridge and they are meant to be eaten, right? Those are three examples of tiny steps, just like you said, but they ARE decisions, choices and a failure to protect weaknesses, unmet needs or yearnings for something like peer approval, attention or to fill up an empty stomach.

What they may or may not be is; "He/she did it on purpose," meaning they did it to hurt me. Critters don't care if they hurt people and often set out to do just that, but most people aren't critters.

In other words, they may or may not have done it on purpose depending on the level of critterness in the person. My wife didn't INTEND to harm me when she allowed the OM to hold her hand. I didn't INTEND for them to have an affair when I said I thought it was great she liked my relative. Like they say, the road to ****** is often paved with good intentions. Neither of them intended to harm me; well, she didn't, the jury is still out on him. Yet I was harmed and the family almost destroyed. While there were reasons she did what she did, there are no excuses. What she did was fail to protect her weaknesses, what he did was exploit those weaknesses because of his own.

See what I mean? And I am not picking on YOU, I am picking on the misunderstandings that abound on this forum. And we all do it.

Larry

Weaver:

Question:


Did you mean "brutely" honest, or possibly "bluntly" honest?

Larry

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, there is one person here this a.m., giving advice no less, that in her case brutal may have been more effective than blunt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Busy day ahead. Don't want anyone to think I ran away. Just time for some very simple, cursory answers.

The easier stuff first...

MF,
Thank you so much for that post. I understand. And I'm sorry.

Suzet,
I have never discussed any of this with my mother or brother. And I may never. My brother was a child at the time, too. Althogh I'm quite sure he knew it was wrong, you can't hold him to the same standards as an adult who molests a child. My mother was just plain ignorant.

Weaver,
If everybody decided they were going to avoid/not have compassion for people making bad choices, nobody would ever reach out to help them. Then where would this world be? I know of a 13 year old girl who raises money all year long so she can put together care packages for the women in the local correctional facility at Christmas. Obviously, the women aren't in there b/c of their good deeds. But... you should see some of them break down, bawling like babies, when she walks in there with the gifts. Is her yearly act of kindness going to turn their lives around? No. But they are so very touched that someone CARES... it may be the first time in a long time ANYONE has managed to crack some of these womens' hard shells. So maybe it's a start. I really do hear what your saying about letting people get away with bad behavior, and how it's not really compassionate at all. But you can't expect people to "snap-to" immediately either. As you say, it's a process.


Alph,
Sorry about the passive/aggressivness. I'm feeling a little under attack here, and I resent innuendo in the form of questions. Anyway, I wasn't talking about BS's interaction with THEIR OWN WS at all. I wasn't trying to control anyone's posting style. I have no interest in defending OP's. I was talking about a strategy for posters to address WW who come HERE to this board. That's all. I was thinking specifically of W's who are here w/o their B's. Ws & Bs who post here together are a whole 'nother ball game. And BS's who post here alone are free to rail against OP as much as they want w/o a care as to how WS reacts.

As for your points about how hard it is for a BS to stand there and listen to their WS crapola when the BS is hurting like he!!... I can't even imagine how painful, difficult, excruciating that must be. And I believe I have expressed that sentiment to a few BSs on here and encouraged them to hang in there. Brilliant! IMO. Sure, there comes a time when every WS->FWS must face the truth. But to expect a WS to be able to do it the first few times she posts here isn't logical, IMO.

Exposure -- yup, I have problems w/ it. More specifically, the way I often see it carried out here. But it's not applicable to my situation. No personal experience with it (my H was actually angry with ME for telling someone about the A). Not gonna go down that road anymore.

BK,
No more surprises. All cards are on the table. (But if you're so convinced that I'm fogbound... I suspect you won't believe me anyway, so why ask the question?)

Mrs. W,
It's complicated and I hesitate to give a half-baked answer but that's all I have time for right now. If you recall the circumstances of D-day #1, several things had happened so fast, I was sort of in a state of shock.

Over the course of about 4 weeks: After a brief but intense 6-week afair, OM dumped me... so I crashed hard from that. Felt like I was losing my mind. Decided to tell Mr. C I wanted to split up (you'll remember we had lots of other probs in our marriage). Was SHOCKED by his response -- that he wanted to work it out, was sorry for his part, wanted to go to MC. We started MC. He confessed to his porn problem. I found MB. You all urged me to tell him about the A, and finally convinced me, but I accidentally left the computer on when I took the kids out trick-or-treating. He came home from work, saw the posts, and when I got home he (very lovingly) confronted me. My head was spinning. I hadn't even had time to prepare for the moment. I could barely think... much less think rationally that it would be better to get it all out right then and there.

The ONS was pretty deeply buried under several layers of denial (necessary, in my experience, in order to keep a nasty secret that long) so it took a long time for my IC to even drag it out of me. Once he did, though, I told my husband that same night.

Does Mr. C suspect there are more surprises? I can't speak for him but I've told him that's all there is to tell, which is the truth. And he says he beleives me. He's handling it the same way he handled D-day #1.


As for the topic of me posting on this web site -- I could maybe see all the hullabaloo if I spread my views all over the board on lots of different threads. I don't. I keep my "mouth shut" on LOTS of threads that I read/skim. In the last several weeks I have:

--posted to a WS who was trying to end a LTA, but was hesitant to tell her allegedly abusive husband. Just in case she was still secretly entertaining notions of leaving her H for OM -- I told her the story of a woman I knew who was "rescued" from an abusive marriage by a man who then began beating her himself... and eventually murdered her. (Oh dear, does that mean I'm guilty myself of OP bashing? lol)

--posted to a BS whose wanna-be-wayward wife told him she never loved him. I think he should face the POSSIBILITY that she's telling the truth about that (even though she's in the fog) since HIS OWN account of their marriage history seems to suggest it may very well be true. I know lots of WS do the ILYBINILWY speech and say they've felt that way for a long time. And I know it's a bunch of fluff most of the time. There are lots of BSs here who are stunned to hear that speech b/c they have love letters, or a recent passionate night, or several recent accounts of a close connection with their WS to contradict what the WS is saying. Such is not the case with HG. His wife left a long term BF for him... tried to break it off with him... got pregnant and stayed with him.... but has been distant the entire 10 years since. All this according to HG himself. And you'll notice I backed way off that thread ever since he -- very diplomatically but clearly -- stated that he thinks his situation fits the mold around here. Even though I know (from personal experience) that it's possible for someone to marry a person they don't love and stay with them for a long time, I'm not interested in forcing that on him if he doesn't want to hear it.

--posted to BB, a WW who seems to me to be in a great deal of turmoil over the state of her marriage and her feelings for her BIL. I encouraged her to start doing some soul searching, and stuck-up for her against posters who, IMO, were suggesting that her husband was perfect and she was the ONLY ONE with problems. At some point, she'll need to tell her husband about her infatuation with BIL of course, but after asking a question and realizing that she was dead set against telling right now... I decided to try to learn more about her and perhaps befriend her before pushing that any further.

So there you go. <shrug>

ETA: I almost forgot!

MEDC
Didn't you mean (in my best Homer Simpson voice) "cookie-doh!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />?

I'm gonna go ahead and throw my opinion in here for fun, one more time. I truly don't expect it to change anything...this is as much an opinion vent as anything else. Feel free to respond or not as anyone feels compelled. Again...just putting an opinion out.

I tend to agree with the basic premise that SC started this thread with. Its the same concept I've brought up a bunch of times in the past.

If a WS posts here AT ALL...that's a good start. But most of the time, they're AFRAID to post at all. When a WS FIRSTS posts here, they should be encouraged to post again...so that they can learn what they need to and begin working to fix things in their marriage and their lives. And in themselves. They're not ready to get hit with both barrels the moment they hit the enter button the first time here...that needs to come after they've built up the confidence that they can learn what they need to from the posters and material on this site. They have to WANT to learn this stuff enough to stay and endure the reality of what they're going to face.

You know how we tell most new posters that they need to be a "safe harbor for their WS" in plan A? That we encourage them to allow their WS to talk to them, REGARDLESS of what's said and how much it hurts? We don't tell them to be doormats and accept all the blame, but we DO tell them that they need to allow their WS to express what their going through...so that the WS can learn to trust that they CAN be open and honest with their BS.

Its the same concept here. A NEW WS posting to this site has to build up the trust in the people and materials here that it CAN help them deal with what they've done, and what they and their BS and their family is going through. We've got to be a 'safe harbor'...at least at first. They've got to trust that we know what we're talking about, and that we're not just a bunch of angry ex-BS's with a chip on our shoulders wanting to lash out at ANY WS who shows up.

Thats why I tend to be less confrontational with someone who just shows up. Even a WS...they need to learn that they can tell the TRUTH about what they've done to us here, and that while they're likely to hear some painful responses, they can also trust that we care enough to really try to help them. They're not going to believe that if we call them names...no matter how accurate and true those names are.

Its once they've established themselves as posters here, once WE have established some credit with them as people who know what we're talking about...and they still exhibit that WS behavior...THEN the 2x4's come out as needed. Like dealing with kids...you correct once, if they remain persistent in their mistakes, the correction becomes a bit tougher each time until they learn from their mistakes.

I place a lot of value in ML's and other's bluntness and honesty and calling it like it is. I think its got a TON of value in opening the eyes of someone who's not let anything else open those eyes yet. But I DO think that it needs to wait long enough for the posters to get the 'bait' thrown out there by less harsh posters like myself and some others.

The person may well be a cad. That may be quite true. But if you want to help them become a better person, you don't shout "CAD!!!" at them the moment you see them. You help them to see that they can act differently. You get them to trust you that you know how to help them. You show them what to do...and when they revert back to 'cadly behavior' once you've started down that path, you scream "CAD!!!" at them when they do so, and it clearly shows them their mistake.

Last comment...Mel made a comment earlier about her and I being a great "tag team"...and I completely agree with that. I've seen that on several threads over the last couple of months, where she and I have worked with someone. Her method has a lot of success when applied at the right time and place, and I salute that. I just think that sometimes we need to work on when we post...sometimes you need need a scalpel, and sometimes you need a broadsword.

OK...there's my opinion. Have at.

I guess I am not surprised that you consider it "helpful" to confuse a newcomer, make him feel bad about exposure, and nitpick and scold posters using Marriage Builders principles. Unfortunately, your idea of "help" on this board always seems to be targeted towards keeping the FOGGY fogged out and the newcomer BS's mired in confusion when you give "advice" contradictory to MB.

HG did try to tell you that his WW was REWRITING HISTORY. Jennifer Chalmers had also told him this was fogspeak. You encouraged him to listen and act upon her FOGBABBLE and ignore veteran posters who were trying to help him understand what was really happening, which is why I stepped in. You were, once again, defending the WAYWARD MINDSET.

You then further muddied the waters with this fogged out screed against exposure to the WW's mother:

smartcookie: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=23&vc=1

As you have expressed previously, you are not even an advocate of exposure, even though it is often the most effective weapon against an affair. More water carrying for the wayward lifestyle.

And now we have this thread, which has a similar goal, protect the WAYWARD. Which is nothing more than a self serving, thinly veiled attempt to coerce others into not using accurate language to describe a CAD. [short for scumbag <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />] Of course, you tried to disguise this request with a convoluted, unworkable analogy about "abuse victims," and when that fell flat on its face, pulled out another ill worked rationale about addicts. Another flop..

As I said earlier, you come here to defend the WAYWARD MINDSET and nitpick and criticize contributing board members for teaching tried and true Marriage Builders principles. This is your pattern, SC. All you did was confuse an already very confused, devastated betrayed spouse and undermine the ability of the rest of us to help this man save his marriage.

My suggestion would be to get yourself fixed before you try and fix anyone else. It seems that since you are not recovered, you want to make damn sure that no one else is either. Stop coming to Marriage Builders and undermining their principles. Broken people come here to learn about MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not the fogged out worldview of a unrecovered FOGHORN who knows nothing about recovery and even less about Marriage Builders. You only know how to be a WAYWARD, they already know how to do that. As they say in AA, take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.

Owl. Now you know very well that no one has done that and no one is advocating any such thing. The discussion here is about using accurate language to describe an OP that was being romanticized by a WW. He is a CAD and this was pointed out by other posters, as it well should have been.

When someone has romantic notions about filthy, sleazy behavior, it does not help to enable that fantasy and use weasel words. That is ENABLING. One does not have to "build trust" [aka conflict avoiding] to use accurate language. It is a cold splash of reality to the fantasy bound to hear something/someone called its proper name. This is a GOOD THING. Some here think this is BAD only because the WS might object, which just amazes me.

Just because it might make the WS MAD and uncomfortable does not mean its a bad thing. In fact, if they are HAPPY with their wayward lifestyle, then you are doing something WRONG. You are probably enabling. And bastardizing the English language to appease a fogged out WS is exactly THAT.

When a fogged out WS sees that their bullcrap has a short shelf life here, they will be forced to knock it off or leave. The ones who really want help knock it off. The ones who don't, RUN, because they can't continue their fantasy in a room full of people who see right through them. As they say in AA, you can't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter.


But, you don't control "WE", Owl. What might seem a good posting style to you, is not to others, and vice versa. We all have our own posting styles and express them in the way we see fit. We can't control people, places and things. And it always comes right back to that. WE can only control OURSELVES.

I agree, ML. Which is why my post is caveated as my opinion, with no expectation that you or anyone else will actually change how you do things. You and I have had this battle already...at this point, I'm simply posting my point of view.

sc, my post was addressing your position that having empathy for someone whose head is messed up is a good thing, and how I can't understand why it would be.

I guess I need to work on making my points a little better.

OWL, then help me understand why you continually attempt to dictate your posting style to others here. Your "view" is an attempt to control others into posting in a way that SUITS YOU as if you set the standard. WHY do you believe this and why you CONTINUE to try to control others? This is a very passive aggressive behavior and I am frankly, astonished, that you continue to do it even though you can see it not only does not work, but have even been scolded by the mods for it! WHY OWL?

Now Mel you know that Owl is entitled to his very WRONG opinion! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

sc, thanx for your answer.

with prayers,

Mel, you just made my day. Hah, screed is now my word de jure. I hope to use it maybe a dozen times. Technical report on a satellite navigation system error due at noon. I have inserted it twice already. And it actually works, too.

Brought to you by the letter S.

MrsW

Which of Owl's many opinions do you consider wrong?

Larry

I still don't understand. Do you mean brutal or blunt in context or what? I am trying to understand where you are coming from. I am fairly certain I understand the rest of your post.

Larry

“Exposure -- yup, I have problems w/ it. More specifically, the way I often see it carried out here. “

Hmmm, exposure kills affairs. It’s like draino on a clog. Light on a cockroach. Sunlight burning off a low lying fog.

Works maybe three sigma of the time.

So why would exposure be bad? Well, I suppose, technical application issues aside, a person who did not want the affair to end, the fog to burn off, the bugs to hide or the drain to work would be against it.

A little First Order (predicate) Logic:

Exposure ends A’s
WS do not want A to end.
sc is against exposure
----------------------
sc is a WS.


Why experienced BS around here tend to not trust you is a pretty simple logic, even for me.

With prayers,

PS: OK, the above isn’t formal, but I’m lazy and the proper symbols aren’t available on this site anyway.

Well geez, then don't read my exposure thread. Cuz I did a da** well wide-spread exposure.

Was it gnarly? Yep.

Did FWH and probably OW HATE it? Yep.

Did it kill the affair? You better believe it did.

What people fail to remember is that exposure is mortifying for the BS too. It is beyond humiliating and degrading to announce to the world that your spouse, the person you love the most in the world, the same person who does not at that time, obviously have the same feelings for you, is cheating on you. Wanna talk about feeling small? Feeling like a nobody? Feeling like a big, idiotic loser?

Oh, and what about the second time around? See, I also had to announce that I actually had found out about the A last May ~ and that, stupid me, I still wanted to save my marriage, even though my H continued on in the A for another year after I found out.

I was in bed for 2 days after exposure, I did not want to face anyone or anything. I was beyond humiliated and depressed. I lost 7 lbs in 10 days. Exposure is NOT fun for the BS, it's awful. I wanted to crawl into a hole and die. I was so beyond humiliated.

But I knew it was THE only way to kill this da** thing once and for all. I even did it in FRONT of FWH. He sat here and watched me do a good part of my exposure. He did not like it, he hated it. But he said "Fine, do whatever you have to do". I believe that deep down, even HE knew it was the only thing that was truly going to kill this fantasy (and I may pay for saying that, FWH reads here. But I know his heart, and I believe some day he will be able to really see that it was absolutely necessary).

Also ~ one more thing: exposing sin and darkness is even supported in the bible. I don't have time right now to look up the exact verse, but it's in Ephesians. I think Mel knows which verse, maybe she can help me out.

Larry,

I have more experience dealing with alcoholics and addicts than I do infidels, but if we believe that an affair is an addiction than the same concept for getting through to them would apply.

You don't hide the mess they make until you think they are ready to receive the reality of what they have done. You don't downplay the poison of their choice. You do not in anyway shield them from the truth.

You give it all to them and hope that the "bluntness" of the force of it will start a crack in their faulty thinking.

I don't believe in going in the back door, as some here suggest. I don't believe it works, and I certainly don't believe it helps to build up trust.

As to my own nightmarish trip into the world of infidelity -

As I said before, I desperately needed the people here to tell me the man I was hooked up with was a POS. I was in deep and could not see things clearly.

I needed brutal honesty, and serious help to get out of something that had an iron clad hold on me.

I thought the person I was with was a wonderful person, even though in his path lay nothing but chaos and destruction. He had even taught his own children to lie. I didn't have the necessary brain capacity at the time to reason that he was a bad man. And I am not trying to lay all the blame on him, but this was the crack that started my head working in the right direction...away from him.

Then I could get back to a place where I could take responsibility and begin the acceptance of what I had done and the subsequent self-frgiveness and healing.

edited to add:

And still, I held on It took along time, but when he finally left me I had the wherewithall to let him go. I was able to listen to Steve Harley when he told me it was an affair and it would take a solid six months of no contact before I was able to think clearly. And it did.

Ephesians 5:11

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

weaver:

Thank you for your reply. I know you are doing your best to explain to me what you are all about and I appreciate it. I ask for clarification because a valid suggestion has been made that I should so do when I don't really, after reflection, understand something. So I am doing it. You are an FWW, so your mind set before, during, after and after and after is very important to me. I need understanding to help me deal with my own life and my own issues as well as to learn approaches that might help someone else as payback for all the help that has been given me.

I think I know the difference between brutal and blunt. Find definitions below my signature. I highlighted what I think is different with blunt versus brutal.

So in the context of the many stages of an affair, which is better, brutal or blunt or both and when. I really want to know your opinion based on your valid personal experience, which I do not share since I have not walked in your shoes.

For example, and this is a direct question, was Steve brutal or blunt or both or none of the above in his dealings with you?

If you have ever seen any of my "Brutal" posts (very few), you know I can lean in that direction. If you have seen any of my "Blunt" posts (many), you know I can play that song as well. I am interested in helping people and helping myself and my family. That is the only place I am going with my question. This is for me to learn, not something I want to use to bash anyone else with. I also understand that everyone is different. What worked with you may or may not apply with the next person.

Larry

bru·tal
–adjective 1. savage; cruel; inhuman: a brutal attack on the village.
2. crude; coarse: brutal language.
3. harsh; ferocious: brutal criticism; brutal weather.
4. taxing, demanding, or exhausting: They're having a brutal time making ends meet.
5. irrational; unreasoning.

Blunt

characterized by directness in manner or speech; without subtlety or evasion; "blunt talking and straight shooting"; "a blunt New England farmer"; "I gave them my candid opinion"; "forthright criticism"; "a forthright approach to the problem"; "tell me what you think--and you may just as well be frank"; is possible to be outspoken without being rude"lainspoken and to the point"; "a point-blank accusation"

Mrs W-

You're absolutely right...I'm every bit as entitled to my 'wrong' opinion as you are entitled to your 'wrong' opinion. And equally as entitled to express that opinion as you or anyone else on this board. Interesting that I've never claimed that your opinion...or Mel's or anyone else's is wrong...an opinion is just that...how you feel on an issue or subject. It's not right or wrong...it is. If you don't like mine...put me on your ignore list.

Mel-

As I stated above...I'm every bit as entitled to express my opinion on this board as you or anyone else is. I have no expectation that you'll agree with it or change your posting method, anymore than I expect your opinion to change mine. That doesn't prevent you from stongly voicing your thoughts and opinions on the subject, nor will it prevent me from doing the same.

You are no more "right" than I am, or anyone else on this board.

I'm amazed that you still seem to feel that I'm telling you how to post...or anyone else for that matter. As I stated at the beginning of my post...this was my opinion. I know that I'm not going to convince you to change, and frankly wasn't trying to. I was voicing my opinion.

If you're so dead set on the concept of 'telling others how to post'...why do you continually try to tell me how to post?

I've also noticed that you've suddenly started bringing this 'censorship by the mods' thing up as a flame against several of us here...I'm curious how often you've been editted out as well? As a matter of fact...I'd love to see a comparison of the two, as the number of times that's happened to me has been quite few.

Once again Mel...I'm not telling you how to post. I'm voicing my opinion on posting styles...just as the rest of the people in this thread are doing. As I mentioned to Mrs W...if you don't like what I've got to say, please feel free to put me on your /ignore list. It won't hurt my feelings any more than it would hurt yours.

With the definitions you have given to me, I mean blunt. I would never suggest cruelty for any reason.

I was not a FWW, I was a single OW. I didn't know my ex-fiance was married for the first 8 months of our relationship.

I can only understand the mindset from the point of addiction. I was very much addicted. It completely altered my prior views and boundaries I had maintained regarding MM. I had very good boundaries and would never, ever, ever knowingly have dated a MM. However I was very much addicted by the time I found out.

Steve Harley was not cruel in any sense of the word. He was blunt, but with kindness and no judgeing. He simply stated that I had been conned, that it was in fact an affair even though the MM had divorced his wife when I found out he was already married. SH did not cause any defensiveness in me, and he managed to not sugar coat anything either.

When I read of the recovered marriages here, it seems to me that the men who have recovered their marriages are those who did it with a high level of self-respect. I know those that stated to their WW's in the beginning of their recoveries that they would not live in a loveless marriage and that they would not allow the WW to take the children if they left have seemingly fared the best.

Blunt, honest, loving. I'm sorry if I used a word that meant cruel.

In dealing with addicts, trust comes from your ability to be unwavering. The addict is unsure, scared, full of false thought processes and they know it. They need help from someone who is not those things.

A good plan A will take the BS to a place where he can be these things he will need to be to get to and through recovery.

Yes, you are attempting to tell others HOW TO POST. Which is arrogant, controlling..........and most of all: FUTILE. You have an expectation that others should post ACCORDING TO YOUR PERSONAL STANDARDS. It is arrogant, OWL, to imagine that YOU are qualified to SET that standard for others.

Even the mods have asked you to stop and you just don't get it. Owl, people post according to THEIR STANDARDS. They post in a style that SUITS THEM. They are not interested in YOUR STANDARDS. Can you understand that?

I sometimes wish posters would be more forthright and honest in their posts, but whyever in the world would I expect a person to conform to MY STANDARDS? That is like telling a person they should LIKE the color red, just because that is my personal favorite. How silly would that be?

So for the 100th time, Owl. I post in the manner that SUITS ME. If you have a problem with that, be assured that it is your own personal problem. So, it is not neccessary to harp endlessly about other's posting styles.

Owl.. I second this.... you have done this to me.

Awww, LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS!!! Don't make me call the WAAAAAAAAAmbulance for ya!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> It's Friday, I'm in a good mood...So sue me...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MF...

I totally agree with you that exposure has got to be he[i][/i]ll on the BS...I've often thought of that...I can't tell you how ashamed I am that I ever put Mr. W in that position...Bless his heart and all those of BSs everywhere...

SC...

Thank you for answering my question...Still doesn't make sense to me that you didn't tell your husband EVERYTHING in the fall of 05...I gotta be honest, it seems like a CYA move to me...When my affair came out Mr. W and I BOTH told each other EVERYTHING wrong that we'd EVER done-It all came crashing to the forefront of our minds in that time of urgent crisis-no matter how deep it was "buried"...Radical Honesty and all ya know...Made for a much smoother recovery that way...

Mrs. W

Agreed. I posted in response to this thread which had turned to that subject. I made it clear REPEATEDLY that I've not asked you, or anyone else, to change their styles. You're the one right now trying to tell me how to post, not the other way around.

Again...please feel free to put me on your ignore list. And if the W's or MEDC or anyone else feels the same way, please, don't hesitate to excersise that option as well.

Wanted to add one thing...can you show me where in the course of this thread, I've told you, or told anyone, that they need to change? You can't. I posted noting why I think some techniques are more effective at different times than others. I never said "Mel, you need to...". However, I've seen a lot of that in YOUR responses.

I have done that in the past. And recognized that and backed off on doing so, even when I've had some heartburn over how some posters have been treated recently, I've refrained from jumping in. In THIS case, I posted a response to a thread already on that subject...and my thread was my opinion on why some things work better than others.

OK...done. Have fun ya'll.

Thank you weaver. I see us as on the same page and maybe the same paragraph in most cases.

Larry

Thanks Mel, that's the one...

MEDC, thanks for yours too.

It's always good to have those handy (or better yet, memorized), for when you start hearing fellow Christians questioning exposure.

Apparently even God knows that affairs (and sin in general) thrive in the dark and ugliness of secrecy.

I guess that's why Satan is called the Prince of Darkness.

MF:


Oh yea, I really wanted to let the world know that I had grown a set of horns on my head and my wife couldn't keep her drawers on. Yea buddy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I wudda done it, wudda hated it, didn't have to. The combined threat of exposure plus all the other stuff woke her up. I was not on MB at the time. But I was prepared to let the world know anyway. One of the reasons the OM ran like crazy instead of hanging around and fighting was that I explained that if he did, his Grandmother would be told.

Exposure works. But it ain't a lot of fun. Great post MF

Larry

******edit**********

It is time for the people of this board to get some new leaders that know how to talk to ALL people with respect. That goes for WS's that come on here and BS's.*************edit***********

******edit************

HELPING others to help their marriages should be what this site is about. That should go for a WS who comes her or a BS who comes here. The BS will listen because they are hurting so bad, that they will listen to anything that gives them hope to save their marriage. The WS is a different situation and requires different tactics to not only help them, but to ENCOURAGE them to listen and yet also be HEARD (hard as it may be for you) That almost ALWAYS takes patience and holding back from the HELPER.

It may be time for new leaders on here who DO know how to talk to both instead of someone who keeps telling us that they will talk anyway they want on here and post in any style they want, and if you don't like it, then it is YOU who have the problem (verbal abuser tactic). We don't need this type of leader people. The sooner some of you stand up and say no to this nonsense the better for this site and the MORE RELATIONSHIPS THAT WILL BE SAVED. I GUARANTEE IT.

~emphasis mine

Now Owl, I have honestly been joking with you all in good fun today, so I won't be putting you ignore and I hope that you won't be doing that to me, and Mr. W has made not a peep about "this"...so, yanno, that's kinda moot and all...I've been "pickin' atcha" simply because I know that even if you were asking me to change my posting style, I would not, so, it's really "no big" for me...At least today anyway...lol...Again, it's Friday, I'm in a GREAT mood...It's "all good in da hood" and everthing...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What I believe is being said here is that even though you are stating things as "your opinion", it really does *appear* that it is a passive agressive attempt to do what you used to do in this regard-control others-I know that you are saying that isn't your intent, but seriously it does honestly look that way-no lie...Kinda throws this old issue of yours back on the fire, kwim? And between you and me, I gotta tell ya that if I were in your shoes, this is the LAST thread that I would want to discuss this kind of issue on...You end up getting linked to folks that *appear* to have a pro affair agenda...You've already walked that road with IWRA/Sarie/BlessedTime, and I don't believe that you liked it at all, understandably...Anyway, I'm just giving you my opinion and my intent in doing so is not to tick you off...I'm just giving you the brass tacks on what it looks like...

Again, no worries from my side of the fence neighbor! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. Owl, I really like your posts and truly feel that you offer lots of wonderful help here...the posting style "stuff" and what it creates is the only "problem" that I believe I've ever had with ya...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Heehhee, bwaaahaahahaha, hoo…

I’m sorry, keepmovn, I can’t help myself. That is a very hilarious post.

This board has no leaders.

No official spokespersons except the Harleys.

No rules except TOS.

No enforcers except the mods.

No technical performance measures at all.

The rest is speculation and perception.

I do have a question though. Are you e-stalking Mel? Not that I worry about her, you understand. Just curious.

Hah, it is to laugh.

I see venting is good your your soul too.


PS: Actually, I could be persuaded to follow Mel and a handful of others here to just about anywhere, except into the loo. But that's just me - and I know who I am.

Listen ........I've have HAD it with your ATTACKS on MelodyLane...She has helped COUNTLESS folks on this forum, Mr. W and I included...She's here almost DAILY and literally "hand holds" people through this hellish process...You just have NO idea...You've NEVER helped one single soul here...You know NOTHING about MB principles and instead come here either spouting venom at those who do, or blathering on about your ridiculous "philosophies"...If you know so much, then start your OWN website and spread your .... there...I guarantee you that MelodyLane will have NO USE whatsoever for such a ridiculous joke of a site should you start one...So HEY, Good News...You'll be spared of having to read anything that she posts and perhaps you'll be inspired to stay there and we'll all be THRILLED not to have to deal with your baloney-PROBLEM SOLVED...To borrow a phrase from our friends from across the pond, "Bugger Off" LOSER!!!

Very Sincerely, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

KMF... while Mrs. W and Mel can do an adequate job handling the likes of you... I just wanted to let you know in my book you are nothing but a big *****! I know this will get edited... but hopefully YOU get the message first.

Dang it. Can we not have the discussion without name calling and finger pointing? In spite of all the side attacks and all the dredging up of old attitudes and old grudges, this discussion IS important.

Can we not be civil about it?

Larry

Yay, Mrs. W! You go, girl!

I wasn't gonna get in on this, but am I sure glad that you did!!

Didja see that he got edited again?!?!?

But just out of curiosity, WHY is everyone gettin' so worked up over this troll? He has 129 posts, and has been here for 2.5 years or so...and then starts spouting stuff like "Mel has only helped 10% of the marriages that come here" ~ how in the world would he know that? Or would ANYONE know that? hmmmm....somthing smells fishy to me....anyone else?

ETA: even though I HATE that word, MEDC ~ bwahahahahahaha!!! I actually LOL at that one!!

I'll probably regret this, though I know it won't be the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in...:)

I think a number of things come into play in a forum like this.

First, most of the time we only get one side of the story, and that is through the perceptions and colored glasses of the poster. They may not even give us all the pertinent details.

Second, electronic (written) communication can be a very difficult medium to accurately convey emotion in, especially when the conversation occurs between people who usually don't even know each other.

Third, this particular forum, GQII, is used primarily for marriages that have been attacked by infidelity, and the majority of posters are BS'.

Fourth, this website is designed to support the Marriage Builders principles.

IMO, you put all this together and you wind up (quite logically) with an environment that may appear close-minded. It is close-minded - if you expect every opinion to be supported equally. It is not close-minded if you understand that opinions that clearly fly in the face of MB principles will obviously not be supported.

If the purpose of this forum is to assist people in saving their marriages, why in the world would anyone expect an active WS stuck deep in the fog to receive gentle treatment? In that situation, the active WS is THE biggest threat to the succesful recovery of the marriage, and everything else is completely secondary.

By all means, help them if possible - but don't sugar coat things. There's a difference, as was pointed out a few posts ago, between blunt and brutal. To go back to the start of this thread, referring to BIL as a cad is blunt, not brutal. If he is pursuing and/or encouraging his SIL to engage in an EA/PA, he is a cad. I don't know any other way to say it.

It is not (IMO) bashing the OP to say that. It is not bashing the WS to call them on their behavior. Nor is it bashing the BS when they slip into doormat mode.

I liken it to saving a drowning person - if the person you're trying to save is panicking, it is considered perfectly acceptable (and in the Navy we were trained to do this) to slap them. It's not done to harm them - it's done to shock them into (hopefully) thinking rationally, or at least to stop panicking, so you can save them.

To keep with that analogy, we were also taught that if we couldn't get the drowning person to calm down, to let them go, so we wouldn't drown with them.

I see that same approach here. Posters are blunt, sometimes to the point of appearing brutal. Regardless of the "target" of the bluntness, it's always for the same reason - to try and "shock" that person into waking up and seeing things for how they really are, not how they think they are.

Those posters who keep operating in their own "fog/fantasy" after receiving countelss 2x4s which eventually find themselves not being posted to.

An affair is a crisis. An affair about to happen is a crisis that can possibly be prevented. The first thing to do is to address and resolve the crisis. After that is accomplished, then you can pull on the gentle gloves and help the BS and WS re-engage in their marriage.

I've been on these boards for 16 months now. I have not seen a single one of the group considered to be "vets" EVER turn away a poster where they thought they could truly be of help. I have seen, and personally experienced, the willingness of many of these same people to come alongside a poster even after that person had disregarded and/or spurned their previous advice.

As far as running people of the boards, I think that gives too much power to other people. Nobody has the power to run anybody off these boards. Indeed, there has been at least one case of a poster who was asked to take their thread elsewhere, and it was a considerable period of time before that poster did so.

Several of the people on this thread probably remember when Magpie (my wife) posted here. She got handled very roughly, and she left the boards. But it was her choice to leave. While I might have approached things differently than some of the posters, and was not happy to see the treatement she received, in reality MP was not in a state of mind to be helped by these boards. She did not come here of her own accord - she came because I told her I was posting here and that she might find value in doing the same.

Having re-read some of the original stuff from back then recently, I can honestly say that I don't believe anyone had a personal vendetta against MP, nor did they think she was a bad person. They did, however, have strong opinions of her actions, and had been around long enough to realize that nothing justifies wrong choices, whatever that wrong choice might be. They wanted the same thing for MP and I that they want for everybody here - a happy, recovered marriage if it is at all possible.

And I think that is the most important thing to realize in all of this. The motivation behind the various posting styles is the same - to save marriages. Not one style fits everyone, and not one style works for all recipients. But if a person, be it BS or WS, truly wants help and wants to change, they will stick around and listen to those posters that get through to them, and ignore the rest. If they stick around long enough, they'll probably wind up getting consistent feedback/advice from a select group of other posters, and the posters who's style didn't work for them will move on to help others.

So yes - bash the OP when it serves a purpose (i.e., to bolster the sagging confidence of a BS, or to help blow away the fog of a WS). In the end (again, IMO), does it matter if you're driving the WS into the OP's arms? The WS has already checked out of the marriage - I don't see how it could make things any worse (and it might just drop a good dose or two of reality in their laps).

There you have it...my Friday afternoon dissiteration. Someday I'll learn how to say what I want to say in 50 words or less, rather than 500 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry, I don't know what your deal is as of late, but, IMO, this whole "behavior police" thing that you've got going on seems to have gone a little haywire...ONLY the MODS have the real power to tell someone else not to "name call" and "finger point", k? Of course, you CAN do it, but I think that you will find it is an exercise in futility...I personally think that the mods do a great job on their own-EVEN when they've edited "Yours Truly"-LOL!

I remember a time when you did not do this, back in the HS era...I know that situation negatively impacted you, but don't let it change who you are around here, K? If that is indeed what's going on, I dunno...I've personally noticed a change in the way you post since then...Anyway, that was a RARE happenstance and I happen to know that HS is takin' care of business and will be just fine...Btw, it is HIGHLY doubtful that the judge actually read any of it...Hope that helps to ease your mind...

Anyway, I really can think of better ways to "win friends and influence people" than by "scolding" them...Just my opinion with a little advice thrown in though, you're welcome to do as wish, of course...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. MF...KeepMvnForward...or however he spells it-lol-REGULARLY stalks ML...I've just had enough of it...I think he is a coward in real life that is afraid of strong women and this is the only place that he can come to "front" his big, bad bravada...He's just a BIG OLE FANNY, IMO!!! (The Australian Meaning of that word-lol! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) Hint: It's the same thing that MEDC said! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mel:

Read all of this please. It is as concise as I can make it.


I communicate for a living. Of late, I communicate with people who need exhaustive explanations. If you give them short, concise sentences, they will invariably get confused and wander around in the weeds. I have been doing this for a very long time and my style of communicating has evolved based on continuing feedback. As needed, I can change the style.

Just so you know, I have another technique. I ask questions so someone can examine the basis for whatever it was that they said. Yet another is to get someone mad at me so they will open up. I don't use that one here much, it is mostly for face to face meetings between two sides and I am arbitrating. And another technique I use is normally for programmers, but I have found myself falling into it here for whatever reason; I attempt to get people to come up with a solution themselves that I frequently am well aware needs doing. In other words, I don't tell them what to do, I try to get them to come up with it for themselves. That way they own it.

Finally, it is my training to find consensus. Common ground yields results and I am very outcome oriented. I will change tactics in a heartbeat rather than stand there and slug it out if that isn't working. Well, unless it is a bar fight, been there and done that too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_____________________

Reference your comment about my knowledge of Harley stuff.

I do not claim to be a Harley expert. I believe that the only ones who can honestly lay claim to that are the Harleys themselves. I have tried to read everything they have published from the POV of not only what they say, but also why they say it, the total gestalt of their methods and reasoning. And I have gone back and read again from time to time to insure that it sticks in my mind what their obejectives are and how they conceive those objectives can be best accomplished.

Now to set the record straight where I stand with regard to waywards, I will tell you that the owner of another forum has used me as a bad example because in their minds, I have shamed waywards.

Guilty.

While I was never brutal or disrespectful, I was blunt. I also believe that there is a time and place for calling an OP a cad. I have done it. I do believe that always doing it might at times be counterproductive but that is my opinion. I do understand from Harley that calling the OP a cad is the same as calling the WS a cad. If you think I am wrong, you are, of course, welcome to your opinion.

Finally, I think that Suzet has a very well thought out diatribe on the subject of this thread that does stick closely to Harley methods and purpose.

And I will add that affairs bring out strong emotions, among the strongest any of us ever has to deal with. As you know, I recently went into a complete tail spin in a thread because I STILL haven't dealt with some of the fall out of my wife's affair with a relative. Emotions can and do run high in some of these threads. Given what we have to deal with, that should come as no surprise.

All the best

Larry

BTW Bird, great post bwahaaaaaaaaa. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am laughing because Mel says I am long winded and therefore she doesn't read my posts very often.

And MrsW. I now see that the person I was addressing got edited. And yes, the HS deal had a profound effect on me. I will think about what you said.

Hey LAR, I communicate for a living, too! And I have the awards to prove it. But, can you scale that post down to 3 paragraphs? LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding.

I firmly believe that a message CAN be conveyed so a person can understand it CLEARLY with much less words. In fact, I think the LESS words the better, because people lose interest when barraged with too many words. They get lost in details and never GET the main point. But as you pointed out, it DEPENDS on your audience!

My style is to convey my MAIN POINT with as FEW words as possible and then drill down as needed, if needed. Most people do not NEED exhaustive explanation to understand a point and don't have the patience to weed through a great deal of detail. It just depends on their personality. If I am speaking to an engineer, he will need a great deal of detail, whereas the CEO of XYZ Grocery Chain needs the bottom line and has no patience for endless detail.

I once did market analysis on convenience store chains and we found something very interesting about their store fronts that I believe reveals much about communication methods. If a c-store has too many posters on its windows, the consumer sees NOTHING because all is lost in a visual pollution. Everything is LOST.

But Larry, I am honestly NOT criticizing your communication style, I only wanted to point out that exhaustive explanation is not my style, but yours, and both are EQUALLY VALUABLE, IMO.


That boy SOO needs an [censored] whooping for those novels!!! Shaddup, bird! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel:

Ok, we understand each other.


Been there. So do Chinese. So does the average person dealing with Internet issues. A CEO type doesn't, but some of them have gone to jail for not asking for detail. It just depends.

Jimmy Carter was too much detail and he was awful, so was Johnson. Bush is too little detail and as a loyal Repub, I am going to stop before I start another thread. Eisenhower, Reagan and Clinton all had great staffs, who knew how to deliver the right amount of detail. It just depends.

Too much clutter is worse than no message at all, agree.

For good reason some years ago, I worked with deprogramming techniques for cult members. I have often wondered if some of those methods could be used for waywards. Oh well.

The message to me from this thread is that there is value in different communication styles depending on who is doing it for whom. Agreed.

All the best.

Larry

Thanks for clarifying that you were not suggesting I change my approach to suit your personal standards when you said:



Silly me! Thanks for clearing that up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


You have actually been scolded on this forum for this very thing, OWL, for whining about the posting styles of others and the failure of mods to censor them according to YOUR standards. I have been edited a few times over the years for various things, but you have been scolded, edited and had threads locked for doing this VERY THING. You just never stop.

But it seems I have misunderstood you all along and you never were actually trying to change others when you suggested – to me specifically - that others post in a way that suits you. Thanks muchly for clearing that up, Owl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

ML -


I'll tell you the same thing that I tell MP - I'm too cute to beat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

yes, you are!! lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I spent the entire day reviewing the archives to determine

drum roll, please

That, Melody Lane

Has in fact...

A greater than 10% success rate posting on MB.

I won't give the exact number as greater than 10% was all I needed to demonstrate to refute creepmovin'4ward made up statistic.

It was an exhaustive excercise...documentation will be available in the "Go Figure, Texas Statistics Today" in the coming June, 2007 edition.

time for a beer....gotta run.

Mr. Wondering

btw...OWL is a hooker <snicker>

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lord Gawd Mel...

Have you been at it again?!?!?!?

Can't leave you for five minutes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

committed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

hi hunny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi ML -


If you're saying you agree with me, can you convince MP? Every time I tell her that, she says "Our kids are cuter than you and I still beat their butts!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course, if you're agreeing with MP, then nevermind...:)

Finally, he wrote a short post!! lol

*****edit*******

***edit****

POST TO JUSTUSS....

Why hasn't this troll been removed from the boards? All he or she does is follow around ML and harass her on different threads. I am just curious as to why this is allowed to continue unabated.

Certainly I realize that your hands may be tied...but I figured I would put the thought out there.

MEDC

MEDC...how is that not a bully phrase?

LA

It is....and frankly it was intended to be... thanks for the question though.

*****edit******

once again posters are wasting time, effort and bandwith on criticizing other posters

it is always sad to me when folks who want and need help are neglected because of this type of behavior

if you don't want to read posts by certain people hit ignore or just skip over their posts

it works

keepmovn

Well heck. Do you not recognise hyperbole? Hyperbole is not lying. Now it is that I am not defending you or defending Mr.W or Mel or anyone else, this post is about you and maybe I can help you.

Albert Einstein is a really smart person. So is Rita Brown and the jury is out on which one (or maybe an ancient Chinese) said:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over while thinking you are going to get a different result. MrW has a variant in his signature. Dr. Phil puts it in simpler terms: "How's it working for ya?"

Frankly, I see you doing what you accuse her of doing; beating on her until she feels better about herself. Therefor nothing will change for reasons you define when you characterize her posts because you are doing the same thing according to YOUR definition as I understand it. So if you don't like what she does, why do you do the same thing?

Just curious.

What has happened is that moderators edit your posts and those of others who respond in kind. So how is that working for you? Have you made any progress in your crusade? Are you interested in outcomes or venting?

How has anyone been helped?

I respectfully suggest to you that your crusade has made no difference whatsoever expect to harden attitudes and invalidate your message, if you have one that is based on reality and not just your personal opinion. This is not an attack on you as a person, just that what you are doing doesn't appear to be working for you or helping others.

In other words, some folks here say Mel has helped them and they sing her praises. Please accept that at face value instead of assuming that those people are intimidated. When someone comes here to post, they respond to those who choose to offer advice based on which ones they think will help them if their need for help is sincere.

The fact is that everyone is different. I suggest that if you are sincere in your beliefs, you will try to help people in your own way instead of trying to get other people to change their style of helping. In other words, be helpful instead of hurtful; practice what you preach.

There is no way you are going to change the culture of this forum in the way you want to change it, especially using the methods you have chosen. But you can be helpful to people who come here looking for help by simply being, well helpful. I ask again, is your purpose to help people or engage in personal attacks that go nowhere or change anything? I respectfully suggest that the only "Style" you can change is your own.

Larry

Hi Larry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know I jump in a bit late here (I see this thread has progressed a lot since I last posted yesterday!) but I do want to respond on your post to me yesterday and tell you that I 100% agree with all of it. People indeed make tiny decisions along the path of an affair and that’s actually what I meant yesterday when I posted that ”people can get involved into adultery one tiny step at a time where the conscience is gradually seared”. The tiny step(s) being taken IS actually the decision(s)/choice(s) that are made.

To me, the following paragraph from “15 steps of unfaithfulness”[/i] says it best:

[i]”Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us."

The “15 steps” thread shows clearly how A’s and even the development of romantic feelings towards a person never “just happen” (as many WS’s would like to believe), but is instead a series of events/choices that lead to those feelings. The thread has also shown me that I had taken some of those first tiny steps/decisions long before I’ve eventually developed inappropriate feelings towards OM and crossed the first boundary into EA.

Suzet

We always remember the persons who made the best impression on ourselves when we first start posting and you are among that group for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had to know why. Most BS do or they go crazy.

How would an otherwise good person engage in something so hateful? I was not happy with the one size fits all, slam bam they woke up one day and decided to do it. That did not seem reasonable to me. When I started reading Harley, I was like most folks are gonna be, I picked out the stuff that applied to my own situation as best I could understand it. Later on, I learned the rest. And Harley talked about the gradual slide down the slope. That made sense to me.

I think it was you who led me to the 15 steps. I also thought about seduction in general and a couple of months later saw the cruis ship guy posting. One small, tiny, seemingly harmless step at a time and people go down the path to an emotional train wreck. This doesn't excuse people, but it is an explanation, a reason, one that I can understand and one with which I can deal. And I did and I do deal with it.

All the best Suzet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

Hi Larry, me again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can agree with this. Usually I have a hard time to use the “one size fits all” on everyone and everything. I’m simply not a “white and black” thinker concerning most things in life.

Exactly.

Nottoday (another BS) and I had a similar discussion about this topic last year. If you’re interested you can read about it here. I think our discussion on that thread gave a good perspective from the viewpoints of both BS and FWS.

All the best to you too Larry.

Did I miss the elections?

dang.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I voted for you Pep. But I think I was the only one.

Might be a problem with hanging chads.

I am so sorry to hear this Mortarman. Have you tried Viagra? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Bird,

Great post. I think you made excellent points.

I just want to clarify one thing. You said:


Much has been made here of the particular word "cad". Personally, I find the word on the quaint side, and don't get my underwear in a wad over it. That's just me.

However...

The thread that prompted my post was the one by Bubblebath (which you can find here). In that thread, the OP/BIL -- as far as anyone here knows -- had "flirted" with BB. Nothing more. Obviously the flirting crosses a line. But, apparently, neither of them had professed their "love" for each other, or shared confidences about their marriages, or any of the other things that would up the ante to the level of an EA. There were still some boundaries in place.

And YET... even in that case...

the BIL was called a polecat and a cad. One poster told BB that BIL only saw her as a piece of a**. Another called both of them Hos and Homewerckers, and refered BB to the Jerry Springer show for "help". Another speculated that BIL was so unhappy in his own marriage that he was out to sabotage his brother's marriage. And finally, there was this:


IMO: That's a lot of "piling-on" over 2-3 pages of a thread. I can only imagine what else might have been added if BB & BIL actually talked about their mutual infatuation, or screwed around. Anyway, BB did indeed become defensive. And worse, it gave her an excuse to stay focused on BIL instead of on the real issues at hand -- what's missing inside her, and possibly in her marriage, that's making her so weak and open to the attentions of her BIL.

But as I said, Bird. BB's particular case aside, you make some good points. I'm glad you decided to weigh-in. Thanks.

--SC

Aphelion,


You think that you can say what a person is, based on a single opinion held by that person? And you try to pass that off as logic????? You're kidding, right?

Exposure is a means to an end -- an action to take in order to produce a desired result. No?

So you're trying to say that if someone has a problem with a specific action, they must ipso facto be against the desired result?

If that were true...

--Anyone opposed to affirmative action must be a bigot.
--Anyone who thinks it's wrong to bomb abortion clinics must be pro-abortion.
--Anyone who considers the Spanish Inquisition an atrocity must be anti-Christian (or would it be anti-Catholic. Oh, never mind, let's not open that can of worms again.)

But you get my point. If you don't like my POV on a particular subject, fine. But quit trying to paint me into a box. You're way off.

Oh, and BTW, on the thread where I questioned the BS's exposure to his MIL, who the WW doesn't respect... Techie said that STEVE HARLEY told him directly in a counseling session that it didn't make much sense for him to expose to people his wife doesn't respect.

Of course, that point was summarily dismissed by Mel b/c she once heard Dr. W. F. Harley say something that seemed to contradict that. So I dunno. I guess we should all feel sorry for anyone who is now in counseling with Steve. Apparently, they're wasting their money.

--SC

Mel,


Oh, but I disagree that it fell flat on it’s face. On the contrary!

Some posters took exception to likening a WS to any type of victim. Which is a good point, but not really relevant to the point I was making.

Others took the topic of OP bashing in other directions -- discussing whether or not a BS should engage in it, and when it might be useful to do so to help a BS who’s getting down on himself/herself. Which is fine. Good topic, actually.

There have been a bunch of other spin-off topics – also well and good.

And then there’s the old – “Don’t anyone dare tell ME how to post” baloney. Which, if you go back and read my original post, it should be clear that I was asking people to consider that OP bashing might be counterproductive – NOT trying to “control” anyone.

But among those who stayed on topic – discussing whether OP bashing is an effective way to help the WS see the light…

Only you, Mrs. W, and Top Rope seem to advocate it outright. (And when that didn’t shut me up, you resorted to character assassination – accusing me of things I haven’t done and assigning me motives that don’t exist.)

Owl agreed that OP bashing is counterproductive.
Hopeful4future said I had a good point.
lousygolfer kinda, sorta agreed (I think).
Larry seems to agree that OP bashing is ineffective in most cases.
Pep agreed -- but with a few well defined and well explained caveats.
And JL wrote:


I’ll take one “yeah” from JL over 100 spiteful “nays” from you, Mel.

--SC

Mel,


Define “fixed”. What exactly do you mean by that? Living my life by the MB principles?

There are lots of posters on here, at varying stages of recovery, all helping one another. I don't recall reading in the board rules anywere that one must be "fixed" before they can post. There are also at least a few longtime posters who've decided certain parts of MB don't/can't be applied to their situations. They've taken what works for them and left the rest.

And let me tell you something else…

In my first thread on GQII – when I was struggling with whether or not to tell my husband about the affair that had just ended – you were, I think, the 3rd person who posted to me. You explained why I really needed to tell my husband, saying….


I will never forget that post. It DEFINITELY got my attention, and I immediately recognized what you were saying as one of those rare, universal truths.

***Everyone has the right to know the truth about their own lives so they can make decisions accordingly.***

How can anyone argue with that?

Those words also rang in my ears as I was trying desperately to come up with an excuse to keep the ONS secret. In the end, I had to tell my H, b/c I couldn't get around the truth that I had come to accept -- that he had the right to know -- no matter how much I wiggled and squirmed.

What I didn’t know was... at the time you wrote those words, you’d been hiding information about finances from your own husband for God knows how long. So when it came to radical honesty -- you were good at talking the talk, but you weren't exactly walking the walk. You were telling me what to do, even though you hadn't "fixed" yourself.

Does that dillute the validity of what you wrote?? Not in my opinion. I'm really glad you were willing to post to me and help me see what needed to be done.

Nobody on here is perfect or has all the answers. If you disagree with my POV, state why and leave it at that. If my opinions are so warped and off base... you should have an easy time refuting them without resorting to baseless claims about my motives and the status of my life.

--SC

I wonder what Dr H says specifically about communication about OP during withdrawl and into recovery? Anyone ever ask?

Granted that would be meant for within the marriage between the BS and WS...but wouldn't it apply for very similar reasons here to interactions on the board?

Owl,

That's an interesting question. One thing I noticed from what Orchid and Aphelion wrote... they both seemed to have bided their time and waited for certain "openings" with their WSs. Orchid also mentioned that she used specific information about the OW to counter her husband's fantacies about her with carefully chosen words. She was apparently privy to such information about the OP, which posters on this board would almost certainly not be.

I think it would also be interesting to know how the Harleys approach the topic of the OP as counselors. Weaver gave some insight in a previous post. But it would be interesting to hear more, and from people in various situations.

--SC

Cookie. . .


Well, I don't have a problem pointing out specific actions that an OP engages in as positive or negative. Not many positives there, except maybe he/she went back to their spouse, so let them go <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not usually into name calling or labels unless I have all the facts and if I use a label, I try to specifically state what activity, statement, emotional thing caused the label to be applied. The facts speak louder than name calling most of the time even if name calling is emotionally more satisfying as the case may be. Name calling does raise defenses and that might be counter productive or not depending on the person.

*sigh*

I agree that the name calling on BB's thread was not based on the factual statements posted by BB with reference to BIL. Posters drew their conclusions by inference that BIL was doing something inappropriate to create an EA with BB. I found nothing in her posts to so indicate that couldn't also be explained by normal intrafamily relationships. On the other hand, I am more than a little sensitive just how easy it is to cross boundaries within a family.

I felt at the time that running off to tell husband that BIL was acting inappropriately might start a firestorm needlessly, when it seemed to me that BB had the problem and not necessarily BIL. *heavy sigh*

Instead of saying all that and backing it up, I allowed myself to go into emotional overload so I didn't help the situation. When dealing with intrafamily emotions, it can be a minefield. Did I get that right?

In other words, BB had an emotional problem and might very have been projecting instead of dealing with reality. So I thought that we should go after that instead of attacking BIL, who might be completely innocent, or not, but in any event, the evidence was yet to be presented that calling him anything but BIL was appropriate.

My real issue with name calling is that it shouldn't be done until the label will stick because of something that is factual. And a one sided emotional based presentation isn't enough, usually, to apply a label in a situation like BB is in. I used labels to describe the OM in my own situation. I also said why. So it just depends.

But that is just my opinion. Others are welcome to their own.

Larry

Cookieduh... since you want to quote me, do it in context.
Here's my post...and I stand by every word of it. It would take a ho and a homewrecker to have an A with a BIL ... and a BIL that would do something like that would be the same. Now... if her BIL did not do these things then obviously there is no issue with him.

I based my post on what BB had said... not your interpretation of it.

Of course it was relevant. The analogy doesn't WORK because one is a victim and the other has a WAYWARD mentality. There is a completely different mindset between a rapist and a rape victim. You don't treat both the same. Since their reasons for defensiveness are ENTIRELY different, common sense should dictate that their reactions would be entirely different. And they are. Of course, when that one fell flat on its face, you trotted out the addicts analogy, which was even worse, because using misplaced sympathy with an addict is the worst thing you can do. Any recovered addict will tell you that.

You are just miffed that you couldn't defend your point.


Well, the only spiteful person I see on this thread is you, dear. Your anger and spite comes through loud and clear. Always directed towards betrayed spouses, I have noticed.

And this is just MORE support for my statement that you are foggy and should fix yourself before you try and fix anyone else:


First off, only a very fogged out mind could equate not telling her husband how much she spent on face cream
with lying about an affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> To a normal, healthy mind, there is NO MORAL EQUATION between the two. But to you, THERE IS, which only BOLSTERS my case.

When we merged our finances and I told my H I spent $130 on face cream, he LAUGHED and gave me a kiss. In your mind, this is the moral equivalent of committing adultery and lying about it. THAT IS AMAZING. And exactly what I would expect from you.

So, I will say it again, sc, fix yourself before you try to fix anyone on this forum. Stop coming here to carry water for the WAYWARD AGENDA and work on RECOVERY for yourself.

[*Just for the record, I have never "hid" my spending from my H. We had an agreement that we would only consult the other about expenditures over $200. In your eagerness to condemn me you confused being embarrassed with being sneaky. Sorry, but no banana. ]


Your opinions are very fogged and are always very easy to refute, sc.

p.s. If Bubblebath, in fact, imagined her "affair" with the BIL, [and we have no idea what has really happened] then it would be incorrect to label him a CAD. However, if she is telling the truth and she is, in fact, having an affair with her BIL, then the correct word would be CAD, or perhaps even scumbag:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
cad /kæd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kad] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an ill-bred man, esp. one who behaves in a dishonorable or irresponsible way toward women.
2. British Archaic. a. a local town boy or youth, as contrasted with a university or public school student.
b. a servant at a university or public school.

There would be no reason to NOT USE that word if it were appropriate. The focus should not be on the WORD, but on the ACTION. It is the ACTION that is bad, not the accurate word used to describe it.

All of this hair-tearing, mouth frothing hysteria is focused on the wrong thing, it should be focused on the ACTION, not the word used to accurately describe it.

I think your newfound interest in searching methods of reaching waywards is very interesting, to say the least, smartcookie, and I sure hope you use some of this newfound interest in helping YOURSELF towards recovery. lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The words were carefully chosen but the info was fairly general. The WS and OP love to share their 'wizdumb' and a BS can use it against them, when the time is right.

I believe the question was is it right to discuss the OP while the WS is in withdrawal or during recovery?

That depends. In my case it was for my recovery and it was up to the then Xws to help me heal.

I wasn't privy to anything special. Instead I took the info I gleaned and RB'd in order to survive.

L.

My apologies to anyone whose statements I misrepresented. That's the problem with shorthand summaries.

Orchid,
Here was the source of my confusion. You said:


That's what I focused on. Again, sorry if I misunderstood and misrepresented what you said.



Mel,


Oh... but I did not equate the two. You are once again twisting my words and meaning.

You said -- don't post to others until you're fixed.
I surmised -- that "fixed" must mean living by the MB principles.
I pointed out -- where you were not living by the MB principles, but were still able to offer a very valuable insight. (you're husband's reaction to your lie by omission is irrelevant.)

So now I see you saying that all you need to do to be "fixed" is eliminate infidelity from you life and come clean about it to your S. Other types of deception or marital problems don't count. Great! Glad to hear it! That means I'm all "fixed"! Hooray! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

--SC

SC,

Bashing the OP..... it's a given. They bait the BS every chance they get. Part of the OP make-up. OW's are usually the worse offenders.... in my case the OW said she had the right to take my title, H and whatever else pleased her. Very blatant. I dealt with it at the level I experienced. There was no remorse on her part to the very end. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if she went to do it again.

For those types, 'bashing the OP' is easy. They set themselves on a level that deserves to be brought down. The crazy part is that she doesn't know how bad her reputation has been ruined. Most people won't tell such a one, they are wearing the 'scarlet letter'.

Let me expand on the quote you gave. My 1st interaction with the OW was when I called her from my home. I asked for the OW, who cheaply replied that she was at work. Let's see.....there was only 1 woman living in that house... ALONE.... she answered the phone and had the gall to pretend she was someone else! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Hm..... in my state of shock, I said.... are you sure she is at work?!?? That infuriated the OW who immediately started swearing worse than a drunken sailor. I was shocked.

A few months later when she called my home and demanded to speak to the WS (who was in the shower), she again decided to share her limited vocabularly with me. I told her straight up that those words (B, F-U, etc.) didn't not apply to me and not something I would ever do with her. But was she describing herself? LOL!!! That also infuriated her. Well....dumb bunny.... she asked for it. See, she thought her vulgar language would scare me off.... it just made me RB better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This type of OW is not t/b confused with someone who has taken great strides to shed that skin. Who acknowledges the error of their ways and truly repents from such a selfish and hateful course.

For me, I will continue to bash those who act that stupid. I will give you an example:

During my lunch, I went to Mikkey D's with a co-worker. She was one of my supporters and a good friend. We saw a couple who were quite cozy despite being in a fast food restaurant with lots of kids around. They didn't act like a couple dating or married. They had the stench of an affair.

We sat 1 table away. They were totally engrossed in each other until I casually mentioned out loud something about a 'wife' being able to tell when their H was having an A. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Thought the guy was gonna puke. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Was I glad I did it? Yes... I was. Would do it again. My GF almost lost her drink. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bashing the OP. Done right c/b healing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope this clears all...... I don't mind if others disagree. That's ok. This stuff is JMHO, anyways. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Fair enough.

Perhaps in the future, you could bother yourself to actually read what the original poster has written about his or her particular situation... which would enable you to formulate a reply that actually applies to said situation... thereby eliminating any potential confusion over what they hayl you're talkin' 'bout.

Just a thought. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Orchid,
Not only does it clear things up, but thanks for the laughs. Seriously. You are one witty, funny flower!! Love the McDonald's story! Love your response to "FU" ("not something I would ever do with her."). All very good stuff indeed.

(On this thread, I was originally talking about posting to WS here on this board... Not about BSs interacting with their own WSs or OPs. But I'd welcome your stories of RB anytime, anyplace -- even if the topic of the thread is whether the moon is made out of green cheese!!)

--SC

P.S. I do know that dealing with infidelity as a BS is no laughing matter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Just want to acknowledge that.

Again, here we go with the little fogged out moral equations. You equate the independent behavior of a BS with the adulterous wayward mindset of a wayward spouse. Both are equally "broken" in your mind.

Getting "fixed" is changing from a sick, WAYWARD MINDSET to a healthy mindset that does not seek fogged out moral equations in an attempt to rationalize waywardness. There is a huge difference between INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR of a BS and adulterous, waywardness, but you fail to see the difference. With every post, you just bolster my points, sc. Can you really not see that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

In other words, you do not see a difference between the falling down drunk, who rejects the steps, and the member with 5 yrs sobriety who is working on Step 10.

And it was not a "lie by omission," anymore than not telling your H what you ate for lunch yesterday is a "lie by omission." Thats silly and you know it.

This spin is just more evidence of a wayward mind, sc. Thanks for making my points. lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mel, I haven’t seen SC made any attempts (on this thread or anywhere else) to rationalize or justify waywardness… IMO she didn’t use that finance example in your M to rationalize or equate anything. In her previous post she made it clear to you that she don’t equate your previous situation with infidelity (of course it will be ridiculous to equate the two, but that's not what she has done). As far as I can see she used it an example to show you her point.

I also think a person with a sick, wayward mindset will not be able to turn away from infidelity, be in a recovering marriage and take responsibility for her wrong actions & choices of the past…

Suzet, what she is doing is attempting to make a moral equation between a very broken wayward mind and that of a betrayed spouse. In her mind there is no difference. And yes she did make that equation. She wrote: "I surmised -- that "fixed" must mean living by the MB principles." In other words, a BS who has independent behavior is "broken" just like her. Making such an equation is a sign of wayward mind.

And I don't agree that a wayward mindset cannot turn away from adultery. We do have waywards on this forum who are not currently in an affair,[they claim] but still have this FOGGED OUT MINDSET. Rather than recover, or help others to that goal, they defend the foggy lifestyle, with threads like this, by objecting to anything that threatens said mindset, ie: MB principles, forthright speech about waywardness, etc.

Mel,

I did not equate your lie/independent behavior/however you want to define it... with anything.

It's an example. Not a comparison.

BTW, I think you need to get yourself a new mind-reading machine. Yours seems to be on the fritz. Or maybe you should quit trying to read anyone elses mind all together.

--SC

Mel, I personally don’t believe SC’s intention was to make a moral equation between those two situations at all (as I’ve pointed out on my previous post after the editing). I really think she just used it as an example to show you her point, but okay, let’s assume that SC did mean it that way - to morally equate the two (which I don’t think she did) – then it still doesn’t mean that she rationalize or justify wayward behavior. Even if she equated the two (which would have been ridiculous and very fogged out, I agree) it’s still not a rationalization or justification for anything. Can you see my point?

sc, and I certainly did not equate your calling independent behavior a "LIE" to be a clear sign of a wayward mind on the hunt for moral equations, so we are on the same page. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

suzet, I don't think she was rationalizing wayward BEHAVIOR, as I stated above, but trying to rationalize the value of her opinion as an unrecovered wayward by making a comparison between herself, to someone who is simply working the principles. To her there is no difference.

The whole point of her equation was to demonstrate that her views, as a wayward who rejects MB principles, is just as valid as mine, a betrayed spouse who was working on - and changed - her independent behavior. She expressed that she does not discredit MY opinions because I had not worked MB principles perfectly [my H and I had seperate finances by choice] and therefore, I should not discredit HERS since neither does she work - or even accept - MB principles.

This was the warped little equation she made. And that is a demonstration of a wayward mindset. This is like comparing a falling down drunk, who reject the AA steps, with a sober alcoholic who is working on Step 10. One is committed to recovery, one is not. She ain't committed to recovery.

hey cookiedumb.... I read the posts from BB... it seems to be you that has a problem with comprehension....you are obviously nothing more than a WS apologist that certainly will seek out people of a like mind when your next affair hits.

Affiars don't "hit". They are a choice. I choose "no".

Thanks Mel, your explanation make sense now. I think if was in your shoes (or the shoes of another BS) I would feel VERY hurt and upset by such a comparison too... But...at the same time I can see SC’s frustration on this thread...and if a person feels “attacked” and misunderstood by some BS’s...and is even accused of a wayward mindset and other things (which might not necessarily be true)...then I can understand such a person's attempts to defend oneself and use examples (even if the examples might be way off base) to try and illustrate a point.

sc,

You missed my point. By a mile and a quarter.

I was giving you a tongue in cheek example of how many posters view you. You so often come across as an actively entitled WS. Why? Well, see my post again.

I am sure you can always and every time explain away your own meaning. But still, you appear entrenched WS. Even to me.

sc, every last adulterer on the face of the earth no longer deserves the time of day. IMO they have forfeit honest and caring love for ever.

For what they have done, for the lives destroyed, the pain inflicted, the lies told, the solemn promises egregiously broken and each and every tear of an innocent child - they deserve to never be married again, to anyone, ever. Adulterers no longer merit true love.

OTOH, adulterers do indeed deserve each other - for all eternity. This is what they truly deserve, each other for ever and ever.

Only the compassion and love-is-a-verb actions of the BS and the people who support the sacramental covenant of marriage save the adulterers from what they actually deserve.

Really, if justice was poetic and absolute, adulterers would be together for eternity. And that sounds to me like one of the deeper pits in he11.

But I do not wish that on anyone, not even dirt bag OM.

So I turn him over to God and I try to forget about him.

Consider yourself turned over to God.

And now I forget about you.

So...does anyone know what the H's counsel BS's about bashing OP's to the WS?

Can anyone who's been through the program with the H's talk about how THEY referred to the OP as the counselor providing support and advice to the people that come to them for counseling?

Are you getting an idea now SC, of the damage done by the WS/OP?

Just the very idea of being brought to task by not replying in just the right way to a WS about her OP is laughable. If a WS in active WS fog mentality mode doesn't like what is being said...tough! It is the truth.

Lets pacify, appease, watch our words, empathize... so as not to offend or heaven forbid cause defensiveness.

If we are causing defensiveness I say good! Cause more. As that is where the biggest accumulation of fog will lie.

Harley didn't cause any defensiveness in me, because I wasn't doing anything wrong. My life was almost completely destroyed because I trusted someone who was not trustworthy.

The people here calling him a POS which he is, helped me to regain my sanity and trust in myself.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the very idea that anyone could ever be guilty of OP bashing. It's ridiculous. Like not being able to call a liar a liar, or a thief a thief.

BB already had one PA under her belt, her husband through his compassion forgave her...now he is being raped over and over again in her mind, everytime she imagines herself with his brother.

I wish I didn't come here today and read Ap's pain.

And the point that was being made by myself and those who didn't find fault with naming the OP by a derogatory name was that the OP is being romanticized, heroized (is that a word), made into this wonderful person in the mind of the WS...and this is where the nucleous of the affair lies...in the mind of the WS.

Why would it be a mistake to bring to light that no, this is not a hero you are beginning an affair with or in an affair with. Hero's don't have affairs. Honorable people do not eff someone elses spouse. Don't you think we should point this out to the WS? Don't you think this is pertinent information that they are obviously lacking when they build the OP up in their mind as a great catch?

How is it a mistake to call it like it is? How could it be better to not?

I don't get that sc. I really don't.

I believe the Harleys tell the BS not to make disparaging comments to their SPOUSE about the OP, but that has nothing to do with folks in a self help group. In a HEALTHY self help group environment, such as AA or NA, they do not mince words or bastardize the English language to appease the foggy minded, because that is considered ENABLING.

However, I will be seeing them this weekend, and I will ask Dr. Harley if he believes it is OK to call a CAD A CAD on his forum. Versus calling him a PEACH or something. Somehow I don't think he is much of an enabler. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

AMEN WEAVER! You are on a roll, girl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I vote for changing the behavior instead of the English language. If being called a CAD is bothersome to the warped minded, then perhaps he/she should stop behaving like a CAD.

Because, the problem is that most people have not had their minds retarded by political correctness yet, so they may insist on calling something by its proper name. Many folks just don't speak doublespeak, sorry.

You'll be talking with them this weekend Mel? Great. Could you do me a favor? I totally understand asking the question of "calling a cad a cad". Would you mind also asking the question the way I phrased it? "When talking about the OP, how do you counsel the BS to talk about them? And when you as the counselor talk about the OP, how do YOU do so? And in a group forum such as on your website...how should the OP be talked about? Specifically, is calling them a cad, ho, whatever, acceptable? Even when its true?"

ML,

SC stated she wasn't upset by cad or the other one. It was from a different poster and she took the time to lay all that out.

I don't understand where you benefit from misrespenting what we all can read and query here?

And not address what MEDC wrote and was edited for? That's calling someone what they are? Really?

To me, gaslighting is doublespeak...what you say is righteous...(and I thought cad was an exemplary way of depicting fantasy OM/BIL, truly) which is calling a liar, a liar, a cad a cad...what's the criterion you use to determine where labeling in a helpful way (to break fog) ends and name calling begins?

I've asked you this before...and MEDC, and BigK and others...and I haven't gotten an answer.

Sure would help me to know where the line is that you draw. So I can follow...like calling someone a prostitute and then apologizing to prostitutes. Maybe what you're doing, I could follow and discern when you're doing what, if I knew what guidelines you had for yourself.

LA

I stand by what I wrote that was edited LA... and for me, it doesn't matter if YOU understand where I am coming from. I happen to use the criteria of if it quacks and has webbed feet... I call it a duck..not your style...but frankly it doesn't matter to me.
To me... and maybe not to others, you are a master of double talk and have become enamoured with always questioning others posting styles if it doesn't fit your ultra politically correct mindset. PC makes me want to puke.
at least you did not use the term abuse in this post.

LA

I will answer your Q ~~~>for myself only

TODAY, on a newbie WW's thread on JFO
(Reba)

I deliberately & repeatedly refered to "adultery" and avoided the word "affair"

reba has romanticized her behavior to a huge degree

my next step might be to refer to HER as adulteress

in practical terms, this WW is servicing a married OM as if she were an unpaid prostitute ... he is telling Reba he wants to leave his wife & kids for her & start a dream life together ... and we all know that just ain't gonna happen

I will no doubt, if I continue to post to her, say something ugly about OM.
I will have her refer to OM as the wife's husband and NOT her "lover"

my standard for name-calling varies & can be a very useful mirror to the adulterous who so blithly drive their family into the ditch at 100 MPH

>she IS an adulterous liar
>she IS behaving in ways that are UNloving to her own children, ergo a bad mother
>OM IS using her body as a convenient hole
>this adultery WILL ruin many lives, not just hers
>she IS & remains a liar until she confesses her adultery to her BH
>she IS weak
>she is getting weaker and more cruel as time goes on
>she is bathed in sin for the time being
>God hates what she is doing

no name calling could possibly be as cruel as what she is DOING

no contest

TA,

This board is full of people faced with the complete and utter devestation of their family and of the very core of their being.

They are being forced to make decisions while under extreme duress such as:

Do I go after the throat of the person I love more than life in court?

Do I wrench my children away from the parent they love so much in order to ensure that they are not subject to scumbag OM or OW?

Do I fight for custody, knowing my children will not understand why I must do this?

Is it in their best interest to fight for full custody? Will I hurt them worse?

Do I swallow my pride and take back the WS who ripped out our hearts and laughed the whole time, so my children are not subjected to what I am about to subject them to?

Do I financially ruin this person I loved so much and bore/fathered my children, to protect us?

Do I force myself to stop loving this person and move on with my life, knowing that they are destroying themselves and once I do I won't turn back.

Can you imagine having to make those kinds of decisions? Those going through your already over-loaded mind that is not quite functioning properly because you haven't slept or ate in weeks?

And then once the WS has a change of heart, the BS must stuff it all and heal the best way he can while

NEVER offending in anyway the WS, or the OM/OP?

You read this stuff all day long?

I am asking you, WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make what we say to an active WS? WHO GIVES A SH*T? If they are close to repentence, believe me they will be on their knees in shame, not stirring the pot.

If they come here while they are active and expect to get treated with respect, then they have more problems going on then just the fog.

I will not treat an ACTIVE WS the way I will treat others.

And if I did, how would that help to change their mindset?

If they get hit with both barrels here, it is just all that much sooner that the fog lifts.

It is just all that much easier that the BS has it during his Plan A.

The BS can't say what we can.

Weaver,

Someone has finally said what I have been thinking all alone. THIS is even more true if the BS was a damn good husband, father, lover, mate, friend, etc in the marriage. Every darn M is not falling apart or having affairs stem from them because some selfish, entitled, immoral, foolish, WS or OP is not getting their needs met. Guess what? There are a lot of damn people in life that aren't getting all their needs met and they aren't out looking for someone else to crawl in the sack with or to manipulate or be manipulated in order to "feel better".

MEDC,

Personally, I don't see where calling a poster a "Big (female gentalia)!" is calling a duck a duck. Could be you were calling her/him a Big Kitty Cat! which ISN'T calling calling a duck a duck.

What bothers me the most, MEDC, is that you have a role, a voice, in Domestic Violence...and yet you said you posted phrase because bullying was your intention because the poster deserved it (my summary).

Good to know. What you do to certain posters, you do to any poster...and we won't know when we deserve being bullied or not.

People you like you here, MEDC...they say, "Ah, he's just that way sometimes. He's really good guy" which is what victims say about their abusers. They excuse, justify and ignore...because you are likeable. To me, you're dangerous.

At least I can see where you are...in plain view. And I do appreciate that. And you gave me a stunning lesson on the JJBA thread...when you said if I took this as an attack, you meant for it to be one...and I learned when you state, "I'm attacking you" I don't hurt at all. I had no idea prior to that. Seriously. In that one post, my mind really widened and I appreciate you being here, being part of this community.

As for me, no doublespeak here. When you profane, you say you're justified. To me, justifications ARE doublespeak.

LA

ummm... LA.... there is another definition to the word I used...but thanks for the chuckle LA...
as far as my having a voice in certain things... yep, I do... and the victims of those crimes as well as other types appreciate people like me that are willing to stand strong with both my words and deed. As I have said in the past LA... I was once like you... I feel I have evolved into a person that has a clear sense of right/wrong and is not afraid to stick my chin out there when confronting evil.
And the "what I do to certain posters... I do to any poster" is just another bit of flatulence.
Really LA... time to get over yourself.

Pep,

I agree 100%...you are what you're doing now. You lie, you're a liar. Absolutely. You put everything in the present tense...you did not call her an idiotic nitwhit without the brains God gave a mouse, did you?

Okay...so present tense: cheating = cheater; lying = liar...

Yes. I get that. And Adulterer instead of affair partner...oh, new insight there. Yes.

Just as you said to me on my first thread, that I'd made this emotional soup...which was right on and cut cleanly through my own fog...so I see you doing to others.

When you said name "no name calling could possibly be as cruel as what she is DOING" did you get that I was comparing the two, regarding what we say to WS about OPs? I wasn't. I was looking at how ML defined SC as a current, unrecovered fogged out wayward spouse right now.

How name-calling each other on the board between regardless of FWS or FBS...one person stating what another person's intent is, what they feel, rather than stating their own intent, agenda, thoughts and feelings.

And I see a parallel between the cruelty of being an adulterer and that of defining others who are not. Because a WS will justify anything...and what I see is that same mindset here.

If someone does call Reba a dirtbag, scumsucking excuse for a human being...and they justify they are calling a duck a duck...they how are they different? A well-intentioned poster may say, "You didn't hold to your boundaries!" and proceed to do this, obviously not having those boundaries themselves.

I saw your post as stating clearly your boundary. Highest honesty, direct, communicating the truth. Did I understand this correctly?

Would I violate your boundary, Pep, if I said, "Pep is a embittered, unrecovered BS, who feels entitled to bash WS and their OPs"?

I think so. (I don't come anywhere remotely close to this believing this, Pep. That's how audacious and extreme I find a lot of the name calling is around here.)

What I see in your posts is clarity and honesty. I don't see name calling. Guess I'm wondering why you volunteered what name calling isn't to you...and would like to know what it is to you. I am grateful you did. I want clarity.

LA

Doing evil, MEDC, is not confronting it. When you bully, how do you stand up to them?

And you said if the poster deserves it, you will. That's not you being flatulent, in my book. It's a promise you keep, MEDC. I learned you make good on your promises.

Like the great advice...if you see your fiance being snide to the waiter, remember, he'll be snide to you, too. He's capable and he chose to do it. Don't think you can make him NOT be snide to you.

I'm learning.

LA

LA, I honestly don't know what you just said, so maybe if you rephrase in another way, I could understand.

I think you misunderstood me, LA. I have never called anyone a "prostitute" here. I have suggested that if someone is going to put out, they should at least get paid for their services as does a prostitute. At least be smart enough to walk away with something since she won't get the guy. I do believe it is an insult to a prostitute to compare her to an unpaid wh*re. A prostitute is just doing business and making a buck, a married woman commits adultery is destroying many people. I imagine a prostitute would be insulted at the comparison.

Don't you think if he felt it was "unacceptable" that he would disallow it, Owl? You already know the answer to this one.

If you want to ask some serious questions, ones that make sense, write them out and I will ask him.

No. This would make me laugh. Not much else.

ML,

I asked:



For instance, "cookiedumb" or "cookieduh"? (You didn't do this.)

My question had nothing to do with talking to a WS about the OP. Mine had to do with how we speak to each other. Or are you saying that this is not name calling because you see red flags for SC's mindset, therefore, she's fair game?

As for prostitutes, thank you for clarifying. A lot of prostitutes sleep with married men and get paid for it. What is the difference between men who sleep with OWs for the sex, and prositutes who sleep with married men for the money?

LA

LA, why would she be bothered by that if it weren't true? I sure wouldn't.

I have no established "criterion."


I didn't say anything about it at all.


One is a man and one is a woman. One gets paid and the other doesn't. Not sure what the point of these questions were, but I hope that helps.

Dang! thars some big hair this thread!!

Pep....I didn't know you used Aquanet too!!

Mel....how's that thong chere? I think my butt gettin big!

This may not seem to fit.... My daughter's favorite poem growing up was "If I Were in Charge of the World" by Judith Viorst. I don't remember all of it...but I do remember my favorite line: "A chocolate sundae with whipped cream and nuts would be a vegetable". That's about what it would be like to wish everybody here on MB had the same perspective.

So if I was in charge of MB....weeeeelllll....I'd make a few changes....but I'm not.

I've been down this road before...and so has the majority of the folks on this thread. Let's get on the "learning curve" here shall we? The best anyone can hope for when the big guns start a'shootin' is a "draw". But you know what?....that's okay....because the world is better with everybody in it. A <balance> is just about the best that we can all hope for in a community as diverse as this one. I can live with that.

I sure love pep, mel and LA. And I've probably disagreed with every one of them from time to time...but mostly NOT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I won't lie....everybody here knows I don't "pertickularly" like "inflamatory" language. My biggest objection is that it's unnecessary for making <most> points....but so what???

So that's me.

I can be <me>....and let everybody else be who they are too....and hope that if it gets real bad....well the folks with real power will step in.

"Rock the Casbah"
"Lock the Casbah"

"Are they saying Stop the cat box?"

Some of you may remember the email dialog I had with my W a year ago about Mother's Day, that included a statement I made that my W interpreted as an expression of hatred of Rat Meat. It was "bashing" him, most definitely, but here's why, from that thread:


And that is my point here.

-ol' 2long

hey ... MY big complaint about THIS thread in particular is the following ~~~> I made a direct on purpose below-the-belt pot-shot AT Mortarman ... and he has IGNORED my insult !

pizzed me off ... I can't stand a good insult going to waste

dammitall

Pep

PS ~~~> aquanet sucks!

yankees! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

LA... I will make you a deal... don't post to me or about me and I won't continue pointing out the error of your thinking. I would like to peacefully coexist on these boards with by pretending that you do not exist. Fair enough princesss?

Good post Starfish.

SC,

Glad u liked my story (real life experience).

You said this is about posting to WS' on this board? Oh.... I thougth it was just about OP bashing. LOL!! Musta got carried away.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sorry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok, well when a WS does make an entrance here or even venture to post....welp... it's ok to help but u'all gotta realize that if they are WS' that needs t/b pointed out.

Classic case... SNL. Major die-heart WS. Still is from what I hear and they are D'd. He still thinks he is 'in the right'.

I have spent many MB and non-MB hours talking with him and his W. The mindset of a WS is not one to be pampered. It serves no purpose to make them feel comfortable as WS'.


Instead it is smart to let show them that as Ws' their choices are hurtful. Some can put is politically correct and others have to just tell it like it is.

The WS' who come here have to realize they are in foreign territory. What does that mean? It means they have entered an arena not condusive to being a WS.

For the duration they are here, they must struggle to maintain their WS mentality. Why? Because it is the natural reaction of every sane person on this board to talk them out of being a WS.

In some cases, that results in bashing. Yea....some of us just aren't tactful enough. But our hearts are basically in the right place. We mean well.

So if a WS comes here and gets all pushed out of shape, more than likely, they were gonna get pushed out of shape anyways. See WS' just don't fit in this environment. They are like fish out of water in the sea of life.

Now should we get all riled up when a WS gets 'bashed a bit'? Well, if it helps the WS come to their senses, most of us wouldn't bat an eye

So what about those who scamper away like they have been hurt? Hm.... the question is do they later revert to being WS? Because eventually the WS stands up and does not remain in that 'victimized state'. Why? Because in reality they know they are not victims, just like to pretend for the special effects. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now I've had the displeasure of having a WS in my home, then an Xws and now an H. I can tell you that when I see any, any sightings of the Ws' type attitude, I take out my MB bat and 'lovingingly' bash it senseless. LOL!!! It brings back my H and leaves the Ws with a big bump. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.

LOL Orchid - great post.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted to clarify that IMHO, a true WS will not last posting here. SNL was a classic example of that.

Either you change into an Xws then recovered spouse (RS) or you leave.

Our environment here, where the air filters out the bad and promotes the good (i.e. A vs. non-A), is not a healthy one for a WS. It stifles their need to breatha dn live in the 'da fog'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

L.

To be active in an affair requires the deliberate, if subconscious reprioritization of facts IME.

For an affair to be tolerable to a formerly decent person, now embroiled in an affair they must convince themselves that their BS is bad, the OP is good and so worth the likely-but-suppressed consequences of discovery.

We see this so often in the rewriting of marriage history, and the selection of sometimes very poor bets as OPs.

Temporarily, the WS is self-deluded into genuinely BELIEVING that the OP is great and worth having an affair with.

After withdrawal the realisation of facts can hit very hard,as it did with my own dear Squid. The man she was willing to give up her family for was actually a low-moral serial womaniser, a deliberately unemployed wastrel with a trail of adultery divorces and unsupported children around the country. Hardly the stuff "soulmates" are made from.

Ilearned that to slate OM to Squid while she was foggy served only to strengthen her defence of him, and to reinforce her rewritten view of me as an unreasonable man. She actually told me once " you'd like him if you got to know him- everybody does". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

While I could not bring myself to agree with her, I soon learned that educating her was futile. The direct gaze of WS is deliberately obscured, but their hearts' peripheral vision still works. Persistent BS goodness in plan A, sneaks around the affair filters to embed in the WS heart IME.That is the route MB folks advising OPs and WS need to select too.

When I was unfavourably compared to OM, or OM was mentioned to me in a postive way I would respond " opinions vary" "or I can see that you really mean that". Not patronising, but disagreeing without slating OM directly.

That took a whole lot of effort and self control from me in my own situation. More effort than I can regularly invest in posters on MB. I decided that if I couldn't invest what was needed to sneak help past the affair filters of an active WS on these boards, I would be better not posting to them.

There are certainly posters whom I have been unable to read for a long time because they offer more empathy to foggy behaviour than I can personally bear, but there are also posters whose "tough love" is equally unhelpful if delivered at the wrong time.

I see Just learning investing huge personal energy in creating careful responses that empathise without approving and that impart knowledge by sneaking past the affair filters of active WS and wavering new FWS and I believe that his is the approach with the BEST INDICATED EFFECT.
That he hasn't been either WS or BS perhaps helps him receive situations without triggering or projecting as much as we "purple heart affair soldiers" might.

In any case, his is the approach I think we should all emulate to guide WS on MB. I can't equal JL's personal investment in the hurting folks on these boards anymore, so I have effectively quit MB. I don't have a dog in this fight as a result, but that is my opinion here for those who are interested.

This is a place where most are victims of the A. For the perpretrator (sp??) to come here and expect NOT to hear a bashing about their ways maybe more than some in the victim state can handle.

What we CAN do here is help. Offer assistance and support.

When a WS, OP and BS of the same circle (they know each other ) post here, the environment changes because in many cases familiarity does breed contempt.

It is in those cases where posting to the WS w/o bashing is most difficult. Again the SNL/Thinker case was a classic example.

Now we have had a few trolls (OPs/WS) from the gloryb. and other sites post here, claiming they have been ostracized for their 'freedom' of expression. I hope the need NOT to bash the OP isn't about them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Those trolls thrive on creating chaos. Often at the expense of fragile BS'. When that does happen, as in the past, stronger posters have bonded together with newer ones and given the support then the boot to these trolls.

Is that considered OP bashing? Probably. Should it be allowed? IMHO, yes.

Just be careful. Think things out carefully. Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.

Many a WS will claim we are bashing their OP. You know this. Expect this. Yet in reality the truth is that, the BS or other supporter may be pointing out important points that the WS and OP are NOT willing to consider.

JMHO, again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

For the record
I am one who doesn't visit MB much anymore, mainly because of ML and a few others who fuel an underlying feeling of hostilty on the forum.

I would be interesting to know where the facts lay in relation to how many people are helped, how many leave and never return and how many just decide not to post after reading some of the daily insults brandied around here.

LOL

Mel,

Please. That last line is ridiculous and you know it. My anger is directed toward those of you who are attacking me. It has nothing to do with whether you’re a BS or a FWS. My anger is directed toward those of you who are trying to accuse me of some sinister motive… those of you who are trying to twist my words and/or speak for me… those of you who think you can tell me what my mindset is and what I am.

I am not choosing my targets. You chose to target me. I am fighting back.

--SC

Weaver, I’m being sincere when I say this: I know BSs have been, and are currently being, gutted alive by WSs/OPs.

I still don’t see how trying to find more effective ways to reach out to WSs… in an effort to get them to stop being W… translates into a lack of care for BSs. If we disagree on the best methods to reach Ws, fine. You think it’s more effective to be blunt? Fine. I have had NO argument with anyone on this thread who has said they disagree with my suggestion and explained why. I do take issue with the personal attacks, and those who want to ascribe ulterior motives to me that do not exist.



Again, with all sincerity and humility, I ask: “brought to task”? If you go back and read my first post on this thread, and all my subsequent posts trying to clarify my position, was that really the tone I projected?



You weren’t addressing me, but… I do. I give a sh*t. If that makes me a sap, so be it. If you think that makes me W myself, <shrug>.

I think it makes a difference what we say – not because it matters whether the WS gets miffed – but because it could be a missed opportunity to help the person.

And don’t forget that behind every WS who comes here -- is a BS, and in many cases, children. Miss an opportunity to help the WS who comes here… and you miss an opportunity to (indirectly) help that person’s BS and children, as well.

That’s why it matters.

--SC

You're preaching to the choir, sc. I am the last person you need to remind that behind every WS is a BS and children. I would rather someone come right out and call me a name then use calm words to insult me. But then I shoot straight from the hip, and if my buttons get pushed I go into scraping mode. And area I need to work on, no doubt.

I asked you what it was that caused you to change from your wayward ways. You have not yet let me know what that was.

I would not have asked if I was not very much interested. Why would I be interested? Because if there was a way that helped you, it might help others.

I know what helped me and that is what I use to help others to get out of their foggy mindset.

I find it condescending and insulting that you are using this button pushing to first push buttons and then to point out how we don't care as much about helping others as you do.

Star*fish,

Thanks for that post. I probably should have known better than to start a thread about strategy. I think I've finally learned my lesson on that one.

Then again... I think there has been some very valuable discussion about what works when posting to a WS... what doesn't... and how people have come to make that determination for themselves. Thank you to everyone who participated in that part of the discussion.

--SC

To Bash or not to Bash? The problem with the word "bashing" is that it has a violent, almost "overkill" connotation. "More" effort than needed to hit home. "Bashed his head in." "Bashed the Windshield". Maybe some of y'all have a different definition of bashing than I do, because bashing makes me think of thugs and bullying. Is there a difference between verbally exposing/confronting people who are deep in fog....and verbally bashing them? Yeah I think so....and it's not just about being "politically correct"...it's more than that <to me>.

I agree with bobpure that my hero is JL. He never fails to expose and confront (which is the real goal of harsh truth about infidelity)....but he's the quintessential gentleman about it who would never use a words like: ho, skank, rutting pigs. Is that just "style" or does it go beyond "style". In my mind it really does. But I recognize that many folks believe it IS a matter of "style"....or "honesty"...calling a spade a spade. I accept that even if I don't particularly like it.

Bashing unfortunately, in my eyes, reflects negatively on the bashER, not just the bashEE. My Southern upbringing is no doubt responsible for my feelings about this....and it's just ingrained in my head. I was taught that good manners equals good breeding, and that using trashy words will make me seem trashy. I'm not the trash police for anybody but me..............

So party on Garth

Orchid,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your POV. I truly do appreciate it. A couple of things I wanted to comment on.



I think I do understand what you're saying here. Especially about those in the victim state. But I have to tell you that I, personally, was not fully aware of the dynamics here when I started posting. Yes, I had read some of the articles. And yes, I obviously knew that, on this "Marriage Builders" site, nobody was going to condone my cheating.

But I was not aware of the BS/WS ratio on this board. I had not read many other posts or threads. I just desperately wanted help. And since the "rules" stated that everyone was welcome... and mutual respect was expected... I figured I'd give it a try.

Miracle of all miracles, nobody bashed me. At least not right away. And by the time some of the 2X4's came out... JL, Pep, Dorry, Mortarman, Nottoday and a few others had taken enough interest in my situation to convince me that there was help to be found here, and I could take what was helpful and ignore the rest.

Also...


No. Not coming from me it's not.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm not good at spotting trolls. I can remember a couple of posters being labeled trolls, when I thought they were sincerely seeking help and just weren't "coming around" as quickly as everyone wanted them to. But I'm not even here every day and I have no idea how those dramas ended.

The thread that prompted this one was Bubblebath's. I didn't see her as a troll. Others may disagree.

Thanks again, Orchid.

--SC

Thanks bob pure,
I'm glad you weighed in.
--SC

Weaver,

I'm not avoiding your question. But have you ever tried to put on your thinking cap, and be introspective (or retrospective?) when you feel as though you've been backed into a corner and it's taking all your energy to fight your way out? It's not easy.

--SC

That was pretty much my experience, too...it takes a certain amount of time to build trust between posters. If someone who had never posted to me before suddenly came at me with a 2X4, it did me no good at all. It was the people who first invested some time showing me they cared and were looking out for the best interests of me, my DH and our marriage, who could give me the much needed occasional 2 X 4 that had a beneficial effect. When someone who is normally kind and caring comes at you with a 2 X 4, YOU NOTICE, much MUCH more than someone who is "known" for that.

SC, you don't have to defend yourself to anyone. You know who you are, and that's all that matters!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

NOW

DITTO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SC, I know how it feels to be “attacked” and if people make false assumptions and accusations about you…and I certainly understand the need then to fight back and defend yourself in such a situation (especially if the assumptions, judgements, labels and accusations about you is NOT true and coming from people who don't even know you personally)…so I have empathy with you… But as NOW has said, you don’t really need to do that (defend yourself), because you know who you are…and in the end it’s not really worth the effort.

Take care.

(((HUGS)))

I found that you had posted to a lemonman thread where he discussed the roles that people play here. It was the first post you ever made. He said a bunch of stuff I am not going to quote here, but it boiled down to the fact that different people play different roles. Now it is that you don't like Mel's role, which is one of many on here if you remember the point that Lemon made. Ok, your right to your own opinion.

Do you also not vote because you don't like all the power games in Washington? What I mean by that is that you have the power of one. You can make a difference if you want to make a difference. By going away, you make a difference by abandoning the field to those with whom you disagree. If you stay and post your own beliefs, then you are making a contribution, one that may be of use to someone who needs help.

Even if I disagree with you, I would encourage you to post your beliefs. I don't own the truth and neither does anyone else here other than the site is pro marriage, anti affair and determined to stay that way.

Larry