Some of you may remember the email dialog I had with my W a year ago about Mother's Day, that included a statement I made that my W interpreted as an expression of hatred of Rat Meat. It was "bashing" him, most definitely, but here's why, from that thread:


And that is my point here.

-ol' 2long

hey ... MY big complaint about THIS thread in particular is the following ~~~> I made a direct on purpose below-the-belt pot-shot AT Mortarman ... and he has IGNORED my insult !

pizzed me off ... I can't stand a good insult going to waste

dammitall

Pep

PS ~~~> aquanet sucks!

yankees! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

LA... I will make you a deal... don't post to me or about me and I won't continue pointing out the error of your thinking. I would like to peacefully coexist on these boards with by pretending that you do not exist. Fair enough princesss?

Good post Starfish.

SC,

Glad u liked my story (real life experience).

You said this is about posting to WS' on this board? Oh.... I thougth it was just about OP bashing. LOL!! Musta got carried away.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sorry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok, well when a WS does make an entrance here or even venture to post....welp... it's ok to help but u'all gotta realize that if they are WS' that needs t/b pointed out.

Classic case... SNL. Major die-heart WS. Still is from what I hear and they are D'd. He still thinks he is 'in the right'.

I have spent many MB and non-MB hours talking with him and his W. The mindset of a WS is not one to be pampered. It serves no purpose to make them feel comfortable as WS'.


Instead it is smart to let show them that as Ws' their choices are hurtful. Some can put is politically correct and others have to just tell it like it is.

The WS' who come here have to realize they are in foreign territory. What does that mean? It means they have entered an arena not condusive to being a WS.

For the duration they are here, they must struggle to maintain their WS mentality. Why? Because it is the natural reaction of every sane person on this board to talk them out of being a WS.

In some cases, that results in bashing. Yea....some of us just aren't tactful enough. But our hearts are basically in the right place. We mean well.

So if a WS comes here and gets all pushed out of shape, more than likely, they were gonna get pushed out of shape anyways. See WS' just don't fit in this environment. They are like fish out of water in the sea of life.

Now should we get all riled up when a WS gets 'bashed a bit'? Well, if it helps the WS come to their senses, most of us wouldn't bat an eye

So what about those who scamper away like they have been hurt? Hm.... the question is do they later revert to being WS? Because eventually the WS stands up and does not remain in that 'victimized state'. Why? Because in reality they know they are not victims, just like to pretend for the special effects. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now I've had the displeasure of having a WS in my home, then an Xws and now an H. I can tell you that when I see any, any sightings of the Ws' type attitude, I take out my MB bat and 'lovingingly' bash it senseless. LOL!!! It brings back my H and leaves the Ws with a big bump. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.

LOL Orchid - great post.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted to clarify that IMHO, a true WS will not last posting here. SNL was a classic example of that.

Either you change into an Xws then recovered spouse (RS) or you leave.

Our environment here, where the air filters out the bad and promotes the good (i.e. A vs. non-A), is not a healthy one for a WS. It stifles their need to breatha dn live in the 'da fog'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

L.

To be active in an affair requires the deliberate, if subconscious reprioritization of facts IME.

For an affair to be tolerable to a formerly decent person, now embroiled in an affair they must convince themselves that their BS is bad, the OP is good and so worth the likely-but-suppressed consequences of discovery.

We see this so often in the rewriting of marriage history, and the selection of sometimes very poor bets as OPs.

Temporarily, the WS is self-deluded into genuinely BELIEVING that the OP is great and worth having an affair with.

After withdrawal the realisation of facts can hit very hard,as it did with my own dear Squid. The man she was willing to give up her family for was actually a low-moral serial womaniser, a deliberately unemployed wastrel with a trail of adultery divorces and unsupported children around the country. Hardly the stuff "soulmates" are made from.

Ilearned that to slate OM to Squid while she was foggy served only to strengthen her defence of him, and to reinforce her rewritten view of me as an unreasonable man. She actually told me once " you'd like him if you got to know him- everybody does". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

While I could not bring myself to agree with her, I soon learned that educating her was futile. The direct gaze of WS is deliberately obscured, but their hearts' peripheral vision still works. Persistent BS goodness in plan A, sneaks around the affair filters to embed in the WS heart IME.That is the route MB folks advising OPs and WS need to select too.

When I was unfavourably compared to OM, or OM was mentioned to me in a postive way I would respond " opinions vary" "or I can see that you really mean that". Not patronising, but disagreeing without slating OM directly.

That took a whole lot of effort and self control from me in my own situation. More effort than I can regularly invest in posters on MB. I decided that if I couldn't invest what was needed to sneak help past the affair filters of an active WS on these boards, I would be better not posting to them.

There are certainly posters whom I have been unable to read for a long time because they offer more empathy to foggy behaviour than I can personally bear, but there are also posters whose "tough love" is equally unhelpful if delivered at the wrong time.

I see Just learning investing huge personal energy in creating careful responses that empathise without approving and that impart knowledge by sneaking past the affair filters of active WS and wavering new FWS and I believe that his is the approach with the BEST INDICATED EFFECT.
That he hasn't been either WS or BS perhaps helps him receive situations without triggering or projecting as much as we "purple heart affair soldiers" might.

In any case, his is the approach I think we should all emulate to guide WS on MB. I can't equal JL's personal investment in the hurting folks on these boards anymore, so I have effectively quit MB. I don't have a dog in this fight as a result, but that is my opinion here for those who are interested.

This is a place where most are victims of the A. For the perpretrator (sp??) to come here and expect NOT to hear a bashing about their ways maybe more than some in the victim state can handle.

What we CAN do here is help. Offer assistance and support.

When a WS, OP and BS of the same circle (they know each other ) post here, the environment changes because in many cases familiarity does breed contempt.

It is in those cases where posting to the WS w/o bashing is most difficult. Again the SNL/Thinker case was a classic example.

Now we have had a few trolls (OPs/WS) from the gloryb. and other sites post here, claiming they have been ostracized for their 'freedom' of expression. I hope the need NOT to bash the OP isn't about them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Those trolls thrive on creating chaos. Often at the expense of fragile BS'. When that does happen, as in the past, stronger posters have bonded together with newer ones and given the support then the boot to these trolls.

Is that considered OP bashing? Probably. Should it be allowed? IMHO, yes.

Just be careful. Think things out carefully. Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.

Many a WS will claim we are bashing their OP. You know this. Expect this. Yet in reality the truth is that, the BS or other supporter may be pointing out important points that the WS and OP are NOT willing to consider.

JMHO, again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

For the record
I am one who doesn't visit MB much anymore, mainly because of ML and a few others who fuel an underlying feeling of hostilty on the forum.

I would be interesting to know where the facts lay in relation to how many people are helped, how many leave and never return and how many just decide not to post after reading some of the daily insults brandied around here.

LOL

Mel,

Please. That last line is ridiculous and you know it. My anger is directed toward those of you who are attacking me. It has nothing to do with whether you’re a BS or a FWS. My anger is directed toward those of you who are trying to accuse me of some sinister motive… those of you who are trying to twist my words and/or speak for me… those of you who think you can tell me what my mindset is and what I am.

I am not choosing my targets. You chose to target me. I am fighting back.

--SC

Weaver, I’m being sincere when I say this: I know BSs have been, and are currently being, gutted alive by WSs/OPs.

I still don’t see how trying to find more effective ways to reach out to WSs… in an effort to get them to stop being W… translates into a lack of care for BSs. If we disagree on the best methods to reach Ws, fine. You think it’s more effective to be blunt? Fine. I have had NO argument with anyone on this thread who has said they disagree with my suggestion and explained why. I do take issue with the personal attacks, and those who want to ascribe ulterior motives to me that do not exist.



Again, with all sincerity and humility, I ask: “brought to task”? If you go back and read my first post on this thread, and all my subsequent posts trying to clarify my position, was that really the tone I projected?



You weren’t addressing me, but… I do. I give a sh*t. If that makes me a sap, so be it. If you think that makes me W myself, <shrug>.

I think it makes a difference what we say – not because it matters whether the WS gets miffed – but because it could be a missed opportunity to help the person.

And don’t forget that behind every WS who comes here -- is a BS, and in many cases, children. Miss an opportunity to help the WS who comes here… and you miss an opportunity to (indirectly) help that person’s BS and children, as well.

That’s why it matters.

--SC

You're preaching to the choir, sc. I am the last person you need to remind that behind every WS is a BS and children. I would rather someone come right out and call me a name then use calm words to insult me. But then I shoot straight from the hip, and if my buttons get pushed I go into scraping mode. And area I need to work on, no doubt.

I asked you what it was that caused you to change from your wayward ways. You have not yet let me know what that was.

I would not have asked if I was not very much interested. Why would I be interested? Because if there was a way that helped you, it might help others.

I know what helped me and that is what I use to help others to get out of their foggy mindset.

I find it condescending and insulting that you are using this button pushing to first push buttons and then to point out how we don't care as much about helping others as you do.

Star*fish,

Thanks for that post. I probably should have known better than to start a thread about strategy. I think I've finally learned my lesson on that one.

Then again... I think there has been some very valuable discussion about what works when posting to a WS... what doesn't... and how people have come to make that determination for themselves. Thank you to everyone who participated in that part of the discussion.

--SC

To Bash or not to Bash? The problem with the word "bashing" is that it has a violent, almost "overkill" connotation. "More" effort than needed to hit home. "Bashed his head in." "Bashed the Windshield". Maybe some of y'all have a different definition of bashing than I do, because bashing makes me think of thugs and bullying. Is there a difference between verbally exposing/confronting people who are deep in fog....and verbally bashing them? Yeah I think so....and it's not just about being "politically correct"...it's more than that <to me>.

I agree with bobpure that my hero is JL. He never fails to expose and confront (which is the real goal of harsh truth about infidelity)....but he's the quintessential gentleman about it who would never use a words like: ho, skank, rutting pigs. Is that just "style" or does it go beyond "style". In my mind it really does. But I recognize that many folks believe it IS a matter of "style"....or "honesty"...calling a spade a spade. I accept that even if I don't particularly like it.

Bashing unfortunately, in my eyes, reflects negatively on the bashER, not just the bashEE. My Southern upbringing is no doubt responsible for my feelings about this....and it's just ingrained in my head. I was taught that good manners equals good breeding, and that using trashy words will make me seem trashy. I'm not the trash police for anybody but me..............

So party on Garth

Orchid,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your POV. I truly do appreciate it. A couple of things I wanted to comment on.



I think I do understand what you're saying here. Especially about those in the victim state. But I have to tell you that I, personally, was not fully aware of the dynamics here when I started posting. Yes, I had read some of the articles. And yes, I obviously knew that, on this "Marriage Builders" site, nobody was going to condone my cheating.

But I was not aware of the BS/WS ratio on this board. I had not read many other posts or threads. I just desperately wanted help. And since the "rules" stated that everyone was welcome... and mutual respect was expected... I figured I'd give it a try.

Miracle of all miracles, nobody bashed me. At least not right away. And by the time some of the 2X4's came out... JL, Pep, Dorry, Mortarman, Nottoday and a few others had taken enough interest in my situation to convince me that there was help to be found here, and I could take what was helpful and ignore the rest.

Also...


No. Not coming from me it's not.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm not good at spotting trolls. I can remember a couple of posters being labeled trolls, when I thought they were sincerely seeking help and just weren't "coming around" as quickly as everyone wanted them to. But I'm not even here every day and I have no idea how those dramas ended.

The thread that prompted this one was Bubblebath's. I didn't see her as a troll. Others may disagree.

Thanks again, Orchid.

--SC

Thanks bob pure,
I'm glad you weighed in.
--SC

Weaver,

I'm not avoiding your question. But have you ever tried to put on your thinking cap, and be introspective (or retrospective?) when you feel as though you've been backed into a corner and it's taking all your energy to fight your way out? It's not easy.

--SC